Author Topic: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?  (Read 30203 times)

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427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2018, 08:34:49 PM »
The cam that is in it now IS broke in. 20 minutes on their dyno.

He said that this is the kit that was used. I beleive the springs are #280 lb. and were used in all four series cam kits.

282s.

Comp part #835

https://www.amazon.com/COMP-Cams-K33-246-4-Camshaft-294S/dp/B001R98HSK/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1521079199&sr=1-1&keywords=COMP+Cams+K33-246-4
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 09:05:34 PM by 427HISS »

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2018, 03:44:45 PM »
Ok, I have a call to Dove.

The lifter number they gave me is #835, but those have a large champher milled out, mine are a solid cylinder. They are a solid mechanical lifter for the FE's. Attached a pic.

I spoke with Summit tech and the double springs I have are fine for the new cam. One step up # is for higher RPM's

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2018, 06:27:02 PM »
Sounds like Dove used a shell lifter or if it looks like a hydraulic lifter, maybe he used a BBF/SBF style, no worries, but you have to replace it with the same style because push rod length will be different otherwise

As far as your valve springs, as long as you are 100% sure, because you'll be paying the bill if you eat a cam. If it were me, I'd pop one off and check installed height, then closed pressure at that height, and open pressure at full lift with the new cam.



« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 06:29:11 PM by My427stang »
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2018, 09:13:25 PM »
I'll ask Chad to aid in finding out for sure. He has all the valvetrain tools, I don't.
I'm sure they are shell's, but I don't beleive they come in the kit, the type in pic is what I've seen.
Why is the latter used and it's purpose ?

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #49 on: March 20, 2018, 09:36:35 AM »
Talked with him today, and they are Shell lifters. He likes them because their light weight.
Guess nobody makes them anymore.


cammerfe

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #50 on: March 20, 2018, 11:47:52 AM »
As of several months ago, Jim Dove was in a nursing home, and not expected to get back to being his old self. Whoever you're talking to---Earl was doing day-to-day last I knew---is probably not the one who did the 'hands-on' of building the engine. You are getting, at best, second-hand information. I'd treat it as a collection of excellent parts, at least as far as the upper end is concerned. Or else put it in as it now is and after driving for a couple of months, decide if you want to make changes.

Making the cam specs a bit more radical might well serve to kill off a bit of low-speed torque and make for easier driving in a light car.

KS

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #51 on: March 20, 2018, 02:52:07 PM »
I would have to agree, if that cam is already broken in, and if you are on a limited budget, just run it.  Come back to the cam later.

---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #52 on: March 20, 2018, 07:49:33 PM »
I spoke with Jim on our first call, then Earl since. He would ask Jim with a few of my specific questions but he would take over.
I'd rather get the engine I want all at once, if able. I used to love working on cars, but with my bad health it's very difficult. If it weren't for a couple of gearhead friends, I don't know what I'd be doing. I do want a larger cam and since I don't have to buy the entire drivetrain, a cam and lifters is great.

So, lets get it done the first time around.

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #53 on: March 21, 2018, 08:20:47 AM »
Just to be a bit of a wise guy, but meant to be helpful in the end...there is no "us" it's all you because the only thing checked correctly in an engine will be done by you, or paid for by you. Talking on the phone with Dove or Summit won't be adequate, and is IMHO a dangerous waste of time because you could have already measured the springs.  Figure out if your buddy can do it, or drop the engine off somewhere, you need to measure spring height and pressure and check for valve clearance.

The alternative?  Either you get lucky, or you smack a valve into the piston, or you eat a cam and send metal through the engine, or you stack a spring and break something that causes many things to break.  This is a no-kidding warning and what we all do

How to do it
- Pull a valve spring and any shims, then put the keeper/retainer back on, no spring.  Measure the available space
- Subtract the shim if there is one, from the number you measured.  That is installed height
- Then subtract the lift of your cam at the valve from that number then add back in the lash (but I usually go .010 less lash to give me room for tuning), that is open height.
- Bring the spring to the machine shop and have them check pressure at both numbers

There are a couple reasons why it is critical

- Your new cam is .065 more lift, let's say the springs were what they said. That would add 22 lbs and you'd be in the 300 open range.  Good enough if you are careful with break in. However, what if he shimmed them more and they were tighter, or what if they weren't what he said they were?  We already see he used shell lifters instead off off the shelf dumbells. The only way to be sure is measure

- The second reason is, if he went with a spring unable to take .605 lift, which is common, the coils stack and can break a valve head or eat a cam instantly, likely the latter.

Once you determine your spring pressures, then you can mock the head up with a checking spring and check both intake and exhaust valve clearance.  Nothing wrong with the pistons he chose, but they aren't high performance and have both a shallow and small diameter valve relief.  I generally check in 5 degree increments from 20 BTDC to 5 after on the intake side, and use clay for radial clearance.  If you don't you are counting on luck.

After all that, you need to decide if you are going to get a second set of shell lifters, take a chance the ones you have with so little time on them (dangerous but has been done) or buy new dumbbell lifters and pushrods, but if you buy new push rods, you need to do that after you get everything together and measure length with a push a pushrod checker to make sure the adjusters are in the right place

I may sound blunt, but you are choosing a path that takes time, money, measuring and thinking, not much asking and discussing.  Certainly do not trust Summit or second hand info from Dove when it is so easy to measure these things.  A sat morning or two at a machine shop and it'd be done, except for waiting for pushrods
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

RJP

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #54 on: March 21, 2018, 11:24:52 AM »
Just to be a bit of a wise guy, but meant to be helpful in the end...there is no "us" it's all you because the only thing checked correctly in an engine will be done by you, or paid for by you. Talking on the phone with Dove or Summit won't be adequate, and is IMHO a dangerous waste of time because you could have already measured the springs.  Figure out if your buddy can do it, or drop the engine off somewhere, you need to measure spring height and pressure and check for valve clearance.

The alternative?  Either you get lucky, or you smack a valve into the piston, or you eat a cam and send metal through the engine, or you stack a spring and break something that causes many things to break.  This is a no-kidding warning and what we all do

How to do it
- Pull a valve spring and any shims, then put the keeper/retainer back on, no spring.  Measure the available space
- Subtract the shim if there is one, from the number you measured.  That is installed height
- Then subtract the lift of your cam at the valve from that number then add back in the lash (but I usually go .010 less lash to give me room for tuning), that is open height.
- Bring the spring to the machine shop and have them check pressure at both numbers

There are a couple reasons why it is critical

- Your new cam is .065 more lift, let's say the springs were what they said. That would add 22 lbs and you'd be in the 300 open range.  Good enough if you are careful with break in. However, what if he shimmed them more and they were tighter, or what if they weren't what he said they were?  We already see he used shell lifters instead off off the shelf dumbells. The only way to be sure is measure

- The second reason is, if he went with a spring unable to take .605 lift, which is common, the coils stack and can break a valve head or eat a cam instantly, likely the latter.

Once you determine your spring pressures, then you can mock the head up with a checking spring and check both intake and exhaust valve clearance.  Nothing wrong with the pistons he chose, but they aren't high performance and have both a shallow and small diameter valve relief.  I generally check in 5 degree increments from 20 BTDC to 5 after on the intake side, and use clay for radial clearance.  If you don't you are counting on luck.

After all that, you need to decide if you are going to get a second set of shell lifters, take a chance the ones you have with so little time on them (dangerous but has been done) or buy new dumbbell lifters and pushrods, but if you buy new push rods, you need to do that after you get everything together and measure length with a push a pushrod checker to make sure the adjusters are in the right place

I may sound blunt, but you are choosing a path that takes time, money, measuring and thinking, not much asking and discussing.  Certainly do not trust Summit or second hand info from Dove when it is so easy to measure these things.  A sat morning or two at a machine shop and it'd be done, except for waiting for pushrods
The above is sound advice. I strongly suggest you take it.

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2018, 01:24:48 PM »
Ok.

I really appreciate your advise, but I feel like you are coming down on me for something I haven't done.
I already told you that I will be having Chad check the springs. The information from  Mr. Dove, Earl and Summit is just that, information.
I consider them two as engine builders, like many trustworthy builders. Do you guys trust well known engine builders for your engines or do you test out  all their work ? Just asking....

Why should I disrespect their knowledge, many years of engine building, and parts used ?
If I had you guys build me an engine, would you want me to check our your work by taking apart some of the heads to see if what you said were in it, or trust you and run thr engine ?

But, I still plan on replacing the lifters and checking the springs per your advise before ordering the cam.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 06:12:31 PM by 427HISS »

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #56 on: March 23, 2018, 01:31:11 AM »
Well, after talking with my wife and Chad, we've decided to wait and change the cam until this winter.
With my health being poor and already spring, we're going to slow down. It's both sad yet almost a relief trying to rush to get it done.
Chad's racing season will start soon, racing his Vette and sprint car, I don't want to hamper his time off from rung his business and family.

So, I'm almost done painting the block, bell and tranny, then we can anchor the F/I on the engine, install the tranny and setup the FAST system, and hopfully, it'll run well enough to get by, if we don't like it, then I'll get the MS3Pro next winter. 

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #57 on: March 23, 2018, 04:36:10 AM »
I am very sorry to hear about your health, but don't worry, that car will still be very fast. 

If you can do it, while the valve covers are off, close the valve lash up to about .014 cold and that cam will have a little more oats to it
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

cammerfe

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #58 on: March 23, 2018, 08:07:31 AM »
Regarding health, in my head I'm about 25, maybe more like 30. I'm researching ways to lower that---maybe be able to get it down below my belt buckle. ;)

KS

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #59 on: March 23, 2018, 11:19:58 AM »
It sucks sitting here knowing I should be working on the Cobra, but because of my bad health I can't.
 It does relief the pressure I've,...... put on myself the last few months.

We'll get her done and driving again.