Author Topic: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?  (Read 30316 times)

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RJP

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #60 on: March 23, 2018, 01:22:38 PM »
Ok.

I really appreciate your advise, but I feel like you are coming down on me for something I haven't done.
I already told you that I will be having Chad check the springs. The information from  Mr. Dove, Earl and Summit is just that, information.
I consider them two as engine builders, like many trustworthy builders. Do you guys trust well known engine builders for your engines or do you test out  all their work ? Just asking....

Why should I disrespect their knowledge, many years of engine building, and parts used ?
If I had you guys build me an engine, would you want me to check our your work by taking apart some of the heads to see if what you said were in it, or trust you and run thr engine ?


But, I still plan on replacing the lifters and checking the springs per your advise before ordering the cam.
Personally I would not be offended if you wanted to check my work. In fact I would encourage it.

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #61 on: March 23, 2018, 09:29:13 PM »
I know, to make more HP without going with a larger cam, I'll drill my stack injection manifold for a 250 shot of NOS.
Problem solved.   ;)

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #62 on: March 24, 2018, 07:39:54 AM »
Ok.

I really appreciate your advise, but I feel like you are coming down on me for something I haven't done.
I already told you that I will be having Chad check the springs. The information from  Mr. Dove, Earl and Summit is just that, information.
I consider them two as engine builders, like many trustworthy builders. Do you guys trust well known engine builders for your engines or do you test out  all their work ? Just asking....

Why should I disrespect their knowledge, many years of engine building, and parts used ?
If I had you guys build me an engine, would you want me to check our your work by taking apart some of the heads to see if what you said were in it, or trust you and run thr engine ?

But, I still plan on replacing the lifters and checking the springs per your advise before ordering the cam.

I just saw this post, and thought it was worth answering.

1 - Dove didn't build you a 294S cammed 428 with stack injection.  He built you a 270S carbed engine.  So looking close if the parts will work from one to another is what engine builders do.  I don't know how good Dove is, but if he is sick and his partner is relaying info, I would not consider the information anywhere near as good as you'll get on this board.

2 - I have had 2 relatively recent "pro built" parts prepped.  A set of heads I used on a customers 390 build, and the block I trusted as a replacement on my 445. Both bit me.  The heads were supposed to be set up for specific spring pressures that I provided through the customer, they were 75 lbs higher open.  I didn't check because of the guy's reputation.  I ate a cam, I ate the cost to fix it.   

The block you can go back and check my posts on my 445.  I was speeding a bit, but willing to do so on my own build (I wouldn't do that on one I was getting paid for), but a "properly" prepared block ended up having a warped deck and bores deformed badly with the heads on.  I checked the bore carefully on that one during assembly, but not with a torque plate and not with the head on, and it cost me an incredible amount of time and decent amount of money when it was said and done.

Rolling back to 2006, I got a set of Keith Craft-prepped heads, sent them back twice for shoddy workmanship and finally had to do them myself combined with a local porter because shipping back and forth was costing me money that wasn't going toward any good.  Measuring and disassembly got me to find the problems, if I would have bolted them on, my 489 would not have made the power or run, almost literally untouched, since 2006 as it has.

3 - If, and only if, you had a full blueprinted spec sheet, and it said specific part numbers and how springs were shimmed, what installed height, etc, as many of the real good guys do.  I may gamble more.  However, I do not sense that you got that kind of info with your motor.  That could mean it wasn't done based on the level of performance, or, it could just be that it wasn't documented.   In fact, you referenced another Ebay ad for some parts, not even yours.  I know it was a reference point, but without specific info, like the lifters not being what you expected, you cannot assume anything.

4 - We aren't coming down on you.  I understand that you are on a budget and understand you have had some bad luck in the past.  Now criminal or rip-off artists are tougher to stop, but parts choice bad luck is generally overcome by planning and verifying.  If you dropped that engine off to me, we would spend as much time planning as we would doing.  Stabbing a cam and checking the springs is just doing the job, making sure the entire engine does what you want the first time, and has the parts to do so, takes some thinking. 

I truly feel for you, especially when I hear someone is disappointed. I want to see everyone happy with their build, but I truly recommend you do this in increments. Also I appreciate that you are honoring our advice. Don't worry, it'll be fast if that EFI works out OK.  This engine will have more cylinder head and close to the same cam as a factory Cobra.  It also will have a better transmission with better gear ratios.  My hunch, you may not like the idle, but if you crank the lash down, you'll get a little chop and it'll run so well you'll be pretty happy
« Last Edit: March 24, 2018, 02:02:08 PM by My427stang »
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #63 on: March 24, 2018, 08:58:57 PM »
Life is amazing when you can't count on others for quality. I remember many years ago, you could trust most everyone, whether it be family, friends, neighbor or engine builders. Today, not so much. Real long story, but in short. I built my 427 Cobra in 2000, bought a 428
from Carroll Shelby right before he opened his new shop in Vegas. Drove the car until 2004. I'm diabetic and got very sick with what's called, septic blood. Almost died in the hospital, stayed for 13 days. Back home for 5 days, returned to the hospital nearly in a coma. Was flown to the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota. After 4 days I almost died for the second time and was placed into a coma state so my organs may have a chance to recover. They cleaned and stripped my blood four times along with some bone marrow and blood cells. Was able to come home after 27 days. I'm on medications for all my organs for life. The total bill was $267,000. The MedFlight cost was $17,000. We fought with the hospital, insurance company and medication for four years, so our out of pocket bills were apx $29,000. I had to sell my Shelby engine and Tremec trans to help pay.

In 2008 I passed out while driving my truck, because my pain went from level 5 to 10, almost instantly (most of Thar time it creeps up) crossed the street, into someones deck, their breezeway and into their living room. Even though it apx 5:00 PM, none of the 5 people were home. I broke only my hip by the force of my lap belt. They could not get me out for an hour, as my truck was holding up the second story. It remained there until midnight.
Their insurance company ended up tearing down the old house (driving through the old part of town) as the structure was too badly damaged.
All,...of us were very blessed by Thar Lord ! I can't imagine,... hurting or worse, any of them, especially the children.

As a two year old I had a bad fall, cracking my skull, was in a coma for three days. Since then I have headaches, mi grain amount of pain and electrical zaps in my head 24/7, which all changes many times per day, some days or weeks better or worse. Had to stop working at 25 years old, I'm now 55. I have other health problems as well, and had a heart attack in Nov 2016, so just the medication bills every month are very,.... high.

I made a advertising deal with a noted FE engine builder to build a Genesis aluminum 427 Side Oil er block and rotating assembly from some well known racing part company's to build a sponsor built up to date, modern Side Oiler engine and drivetrain for three magazines.
The engine builder stole, sold or used all the parts. All of this took my "spirit for life" for 10 years. Four months ago we decided that after we pay off my MedFlight bill, we would take out a bank loan to build a engine, clutch and tranny in two years.  A close friend (we're actually closer than brothers)
said because of my new and old health issues, my friend Chad gave us the money to get the Cobra back running "NOW" and pay back when we can !
It took me a week of thinking to decide on, yes. I will for ever Love Chad ! 

Along with my brain damage, having chronic pain (which it's hard to concentrate) and learning disability, school was/is very difficult. Because I missed so many days in high school, I did not have enough credits to go through to my Jr. year.

With help from my family, friends and faith, I've always tried to have a good attitude and sense of humor.

Sorry this ended up being longer than I thought. The Cobra means the world to me. Times when I'm feeling just well enough to drive, but down mentally, I fire it up, listing to the rump, thump of the cam and no muffler side pipes, cruz around our small town street's then down the highway and back, if only for 20 minutes, I feel much better. I went through 1.3 years of autobody school, know how to weld and built the Cobra myself except for the engine. I built a Pro-Street Camaro when I was 18. Helped a guy racing sprint cars etc.

I don't mean to say my life is bad all the time, it's not, I've done and seen many great things and people in my life, it just suck's at times like most of us. No matter what happend in life, we just need to keep trucking on. (or in my case, keep Cobra'ing on) lol....
Kevin

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #64 on: March 25, 2018, 08:46:48 AM »
Kevin,

Continue to hang in there, sounds like a seriously tough run, but you have good friends and family.

As a career aviator and AF officer, I find I am very objective based and try to separate emotion from decision.  It's not always possible, but balancing toys, health, and limited budget, it's critical to try. 

I think you have come to this conclusion already, but I would look at it this way, the benefits of the Cobra to you are beyond what a single camshaft or engine controller will provide.  In fact, my hunch is, a standard 360 truck motor, on a cool Nebraska night would be MUCH better than what you have to play with now, so having a built 428 should be significantly more.

So, I would recommend the following

1 - Get the Cobra running the most cost effective way possible, with the purpose to make 2018 better than 2017   I would buy nothing extra, period.  Iron water pump, black painted brackets, current ECM controller (I actually would have likely even kept carbs in this case, just to hear that baby roar again)  Focus on getting that thing driving.

2 - Get to know the car, and this winter, make changes to make 2019 better than 2018. On a Saturday morning you can swap to an aluminum water pump.  Some cold winter month you can swap engine controllers and get it on a chassis dyno, etc.  Maybe even a cam swap.  Plan those events and research them to both take your time, discuss, and then decide on a course of action.

To be blunt, I think you are trying to cram 20 lbs into a 10 lb bag.  Prioritizing as above will get you a running car now and something to look forward to each winter.

As far as quality, forget the past, shit was bad back then too, you just weren't looking as close.  Chevy pickups, Ford Pintos, etc blew up in accidents, aftermarket parts were hardly available, and a motor like yours is NOW was state of the art at 450 hp.  We tend to look back on the good old days, but things are like they always were, you just had to trust the local guy because there wasn't a way to ask the world like there is today. 

Good luck, and take that pile of parts and get it running, with what you have, if you focus, it could be ready for April!
« Last Edit: March 25, 2018, 08:50:31 AM by My427stang »
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #65 on: March 25, 2018, 10:14:56 PM »
You are correct, I need to settle down and get her running again so I can get back to the enjoyment of not only driving a 427 Cobra, but mine !
I can be a bit of perfectionist, so I was trying to get it almost perfect, so when I fire her up the first time after 10 years, I'd hear this motor rumble with a bigger cam, one that knocks the fillings off my teeth. lol

I'm so fired up buddy, but I'm back down on earth now, with Chad, Patty (wife) and you my friend. I was putting a lot of pressure on myself to get it done asap. That PSI of my mind is down now, so going back to a calm piece of mind feeling better yet excited.

I took the throttle bodies off today for painting, and noticed that underneith the flat black paint, is blue anodizing !
Now I need to find something to remove the paint while not hurting the anodizing. It doesn't look so far,....that the previous owner did not scuff the anodizing prior to painting. We'll see.

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #66 on: June 11, 2018, 05:49:18 PM »
So Paulie is right, but that doesn't make it a bad engine, just means that Dove is BSing, which was apparent in the nodular iron crank comment too.

It's a nice CJ build, all decent but not fancy parts, with a set of heads and intake that flow significantly more than the parts beneath it warrant, but certainly a good setup and would feel like stock 427 but hang in a bit longer IMHO. 

My hunch, with that cam, those heads and TW intake, 475 hp giving it the benefit of the doubt, torque will likely climb with the EFI, but not sure power will The cam will really wake it up. 

However, the combo is likely a nice tight quench, likely right at the advertised compression, the issue is, I think it wouldn't run on pump gas the way he built it, it'd at least be very finicky unless the cam is retarded 4 degrees.

The issue I have with any of this is not knowing what is in the motor.  Slap a 294S in there, if everything is checked out, it'll be a monster, but still short of Dove's numbers IMHO.

Do yourself a favor, slow the boat down a bit.  Get inside it.  Pay someone like Gessford or your buddy to go through it, make sure it's right.  Even if you only check the top end for spring pressure and other parts.  It wouldn't surprise me if the support a 294S, the rockers and pushrods too, this could be as cheap simple as a cam change, but checking clearances and spring pressure now will save much heartache

I think it has the potential to be a great engine, but take your time and know what you have from more than just the list of parts

Being away from my post for a while, I'm reading through it again, but wanted to ask questions about the the reply above while thinking about it.
It looks like I won''t have the car done at least fall if not longer, sad but I'm trying my best I can. One good thing is, no need to rush right now.  My health sucks and my buddy Chad is very,...busy, and he's opened a second shop.

Because of my health I need,..this engine to be done right. My health will be getting worse year to year now, so I may end up stopping driving in 5-8 years. I wish I could build this as a dream engine, but I don''t have another 10k lol....

So, I'm DEFINITELY,.....stepping up to that cam, and really wanting wanting the stand alone computer rather than the FAST, even if it takes all winter.
It's been over 10 years, so rushing it now could be a serious problem for my health, the engine and the Cobra, and I can't have anymore problems.

I still need to sell my sprint car parts to add to the budget, it would help a lot. Feeling like crap all the time sucks, but I need to get to it done.

« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 07:34:57 PM by 427HISS »

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #67 on: June 12, 2018, 06:49:27 AM »
If you are going to do that, then I recommend you pull the heads, cc the chambers, measure deck clearance, ID the pistons, we can recommend a head gasket that will work best depending on quench, and then we can really pick a cam that is right for the application
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #68 on: June 14, 2018, 10:30:48 AM »
I watched a compcams video about solid flat tappet cam. They said unlike roller lifters, you can not reuse a flat tappet cam because they wear to the specific lobe. So, with Dove breaking in the engine on a dyno or test stand, and me wanting the bigger cam, do I need to buy new lifters ?

How do I find out the rocker arms ratio ?  I think,....thier 1:76 but will call Dove if needed. Need to find out after all the valve train is done to measure measure for new push rods. Maybe I should order everything new except for the rockers & timing chain ?

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #69 on: June 14, 2018, 08:08:37 PM »
You cannot reuse flat tappets (at least that's the story, but I have seen plenty of guys get away with it over the years)

That being said, if that info is new to you, and if it's going to be a while until you fire it, I would not do it until the car is ready to run, or you can get it on a dyno.

In fact, I am flip-flopping, I really think given your budget and buddy's limited schedule, you should just run the current cam.  If you assemble it and eat a new cam, then engine will have to come all the way down again, and if you swap cams and let it sit, or it doesn't fire properly, or you make a mistake, it's likely to happen and you will be further behind

The other option would be to drop it off somewhere to have it swapped and the cam broken in on a run stand, or better yet, on a dyno, but I understand the budget issues

As far as rocker ratio, if they are Dove adjustables, they are supposed to be 1.76.  Setup can change it slightly as can manufacturing differences.  Very few adjustable rockers for the FE are not 1.76 (other than old Isky or custom)
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 08:11:03 PM by My427stang »
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #70 on: August 19, 2018, 09:12:30 PM »
If I was picking out of that list I would pick

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=947&sb=0

COMP Cams 33-246-4
Part Number: 249-33-246-4
COMP Cams Comp Cams Magnum Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshafts
Magnum 294S Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshaft
Lift: .605"/.605"
Duration: 294°/294°
Lobe Separation Angle: 110°
RPM Range: 2500-6500   
View Details
$154.99

However, I did not check any of your part numbers, do not know how your heads are set up for spring pressure or clearance, and I am not saying it is absolutely the best, just a logical cam for use (assuming you use a better controller)


I beleive it's the same, but according to Comps site, the duration is much lower at 248/248, not 294/294  ?

Description       
   Print Specs   
Submit
Return to Search Results
Part Number:   
33-246-4
Grind Number:   
294S
 
Lifter Type:   
Solid Lifter
Engine Family:   
Ford 352-428 c.i. 8 CYL. 1963-1976
Description:   
Solid-Good for Street / Strip cars. Use 10:1+ compression, low gears, 3000+ stall or 4 speed. Very rough idle.
Cam Family:   
Magnum™ Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshafts
Specifications           Intake   Exhaust
RPM Range:   
2500 to 6500
Valve Lash:   
0.022
 
0.022
Valve Timing:   
0.015
Duration:   
294
 
294
Lobe Separation:     
110°
Duration @ .050" Lift:   
248
 
248
Intake Centerline:   
106°
Valve Lift:   
0.605
 
0.605
        Lobe Lift:   

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=947&sb=0
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 09:14:30 PM by 427HISS »

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #71 on: August 28, 2018, 05:26:49 PM »
Ross ?

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #72 on: August 28, 2018, 07:06:53 PM »
Look again at what you posted, the answer is in your own post :) 

294 is advertised duration, 248 is @ .050, same cam!
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #73 on: August 29, 2018, 09:55:02 PM »
I see that now.
Thank you !

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #74 on: August 30, 2018, 07:37:17 PM »
How far can we increase the duration without hurting performance, with a solid roller ?