Author Topic: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?  (Read 30273 times)

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427HISS

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Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« on: March 07, 2018, 12:07:26 AM »
I have a 428FE and a stack injection system. The cam is the COMP Cams 11-217-4.
I still want my engine to sound and feel nasty, but what are the cam profile's that this injection needs.
I can give you more details, but this is just for basic information about cam's for injection.

Comp Cams Magnum Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshafts
COMP Cams 11-217-4
Part Number: 249-11-217-4

Operating Range:   1800-5800 RPM
Duration Advertised:   270° Intake / 270° Exhaust
Duration @ .050'' Lift:   224° Intake / 224° Exhaust
Valve Lift:   .530'' Intake / .530'' Exhaust
Valve Setting:   .022'' Intake / .022'' Exhaust
Lobe Separation Angle:   110°
Specifications:

Exhaust Valve Lift (in.)0.53Intake Valve Lift (in.)0.530RPM Range1800-5800Exh. Duration @ .050 in. (Deg)224Int. Duration @ .050 in. (Deg)224Exh. Duration Advertised (Deg)270Int. Duration Advertised (Deg)270Engine Make/SizeChevy Big Block (396-454)Lifter TypeMechanical Flat TappetUsageStreet/StripAdvertised Duration270 int./270 exh.Advertised Exhaust Duration270Advertised Intake Duration270Basic Operating RPM Range1,800-5,800Cam StyleMechanical flat tappetComputer-Controlled CompatibleNoDuration at 050 inch Lift224 int./224 exh.Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift224Exhaust Valve Lash (in.)0.022Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio (0.53Grind NumberCB 270S-10Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift224Intake Valve Lash (in.)0.022Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio (i0.53QuantitySold individuallyValve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio0.530 int./0.530 exh.Valve Springs RequiredYesLobe Separation (Deg)110Manufacturer's Part Number:11-217-4
« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 05:06:07 PM by 427HISS »

chilly460

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2018, 07:29:16 AM »
That cam, in a 428, will be extremely mild.   In broad strokes, fuel injection likes more manifold vacuum so FI cams are generally ground with a wider LSA to decrease overlap. 

It's said many times on here but really is crucial for a FI application, but makes sense to get a custom cam ground.  Basically any catalog cam for an FE is not going to be ground with FI in mind, and you wanting a somewhat aggressive sound is going to lean it towards a tighter LSA in the catalog cams. 

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2018, 08:06:58 AM »
Overall

- Fuel injection is only fussy on cam choice if the system, or owner, cannot do advanced tuning.  If so, Chilly is 100% right. 
- That cam is TINY, and less than I would recommend for a 390 truck, so shoot higher, but also realize you need to take compression into account
- There are plenty of cams that will work great off the shelf, but it is far easier to just grind one rather than 50 million google searches and trying to find one

What we need
- All specs on vehicle and owner, gears, compression, intake tire size, EFI controller and system, willingness to tune, etc

FWIW, my 489 runs a 242/248 @ .050, .600 lift, 288/294 adv, lashed at .014 instead of .028 specs, 110 LSA on 106.  Happy as a clam with EFI, A/C and PS acts like a new car,  but requires some tuning.  You could go at least that big in a Cobra. 
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

jayb

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2018, 09:06:02 AM »
I agree with the other guys, that cam is not going to sound nasty (if that's what you want), you will need more duration to get there.  If I recall correctly you are going with a self-learning EFI system, so you can't go too big due to vacuum considerations, but at least 10-12 more degrees of duration shouldn't be a problem. 
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Machspeed

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2018, 10:07:21 AM »
What is the compression ratio of your 428? This will also limit how much duration your cam can have. I agree with the opinions above, a custom ground cam is the way to go with your project. It may cost a little more but well worth it. Remember all of the parts have to work together. I have seen guys put big cams( high duration) in stock low compression engines for the rough idle sound. They sound cool sitting still but the performance is horrible.   

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2018, 04:39:56 PM »
My Cobra weighs about 2,600 lbs. (Stout frame & thick heavy fiberglass body)
For 9" with I beleive,...331 gears.
Tremec TKO 5 speed O/D .82
15" wheels, 12" rear width,

I just bought the complete 428FE from Mr. Dove. No carbs.

I beleive it's 10:5:1 with aluminum heads.

428 Ford F.E. + .030 Internally balanced

Speed Pro forged Pistons

Sealed Power File Fit Moly Rings

Eagle H-Beam Connecting Rods

Melling High Pressure/High Volume Oil Pump

Dove Heavy Duty Oil Pump Drive

Dove C.J. Aluminum Heads

Stainless Steel Valves

Heavy Duty Retainers & Locks

Dove Rocker Arm Assembly w/ Heavy Duty Shafts

Dove Tunnel Wedge Intake

Cobra Mustang Low Profile Oil Pan

Dove Aluminum Water Pump.

I have a great friend professional shop owner, has two in house chassis dyno's, super tuner of any engine, racer of 360/410 sprint car, hobby stock and twin turbo 1,200 hp 08' vette. He's never built a FE   ???

I need,....my Cobra to be angry & nasty, like a Cobra should be. Not some purring little kitten, no radio, 18" Hot Rod wheels, automatic tranny, quiet exhaust or high back Lexes comphy seats. To each it's own, but that's not for me.

This 2nd engine build was going to be on the low end of cost, ss my builder stole 10k in parts & money 10 years ago. He has sent me back some of my great quality parts and money paid back, so I have more money, but not 10k.
E
I'd love to go a mechanical roller but, I'm concerend about cost and the lifters failing on the street ?
I do have the roller rockets, so that brings down the cost. I assume,....their 1:76 ?

Anyway, I love the nasty sound and feel of race engines, both radical idle and going up in RPM's, so I need to step-up this motor, but not overboard.


« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 04:43:14 PM by 427HISS »

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2018, 04:48:04 PM »
Oh, forgot.

I have a older FAST set-up. 53lb. injectors, pump etc. Everything but fuel lines.
I can use it as is, order a up grade or my buddy is a dealer of a top end stand alone computer system. Can't recall whom right now.
His cost is $900.

andyf

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2018, 08:14:38 PM »
Oh, forgot.

I have a older FAST set-up. 53lb. injectors, pump etc. Everything but fuel lines.
I can use it as is, order a up grade or my buddy is a dealer of a top end stand alone computer system. Can't recall whom right now.
His cost is $900.

Get your FAST stuff together then call Rich at FAST Man EFI and tell him what you have and what you are trying to do. He can steer you down the correct path and get you the parts you need.

Shouldn't be any problem to buy a cam that has a little bit of rumble at idle but works fine with the FAST system. The EFI setups are pretty good at dealing with performance cams. If the cam is too big you can just kick the EFI out of closed loop at idle and run it off of the fuel table.

Barry_R

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2018, 09:04:45 PM »
If the older FAST setup allows fuel map tuning you are fine going with as big of a cam as you desire.  You can control the fuel map and the limits for O2 based correction.  If you have one of those EZ-EFI systems that are self learning only you will need to be more careful.  I have had a couple of IR setups around 600HP that did not "play well" with the self learning system only - both ended up needing to upgrade to the user tunable setup.

The self learning only systems are entirely reliant upon O2 data to feedback to the computer.  But an O2 sensor is interpreting mixture by reading oxygen.  A rich misfire can cause excess oxygen in the exhaust, and the system mistakenly adds yet more fuel until its drowning the engine.  The more sophisticated EFI systems allow you to manually tune the package into a reasonable state, and from there you can limit the degree of rich/lean correction based on O2 - - preventing a misfire from taking the tune "off the reservation"....

cammerfe

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2018, 11:40:47 PM »
Overall

- Fuel injection is only fussy on cam choice if the system, or owner, cannot do advanced tuning.  If so, Chilly is 100% right. 
- That cam is TINY, and less than I would recommend for a 390 truck, so shoot higher, but also realize you need to take compression into account
- There are plenty of cams that will work great off the shelf, but it is far easier to just grind one rather than 50 million google searches and trying to find one

What we need
- All specs on vehicle and owner, gears, compression, intake tire size, EFI controller and system, willingness to tune, etc

FWIW, my 489 runs a 242/248 @ .050, .600 lift, 288/294 adv, lashed at .014 instead of .028 specs, 110 LSA on 106.  Happy as a clam with EFI, A/C and PS acts like a new car,  but requires some tuning.  You could go at least that big in a Cobra.

Some years ago, I did a 390 with which I intended to use Holley EFI. Comp made me a solid roller with very close to the specs noted above. It had a bit more lift, with .658-.666 but was otherwise identical. Sounded really nasty, particularly because I intended it for my '63 Effie ICB. I asked Comp for the "...street manners I had in my '64 427, Idle about 850..." They did a superb job with their analysis. I gave them complete engine specs, including the flow figures we found in the Dove D5 heads after a complete go-through by Wayne Kuchtyn. We flowed both the heads and Dove 'Spider' manifold at Livernois Motorsports on their automated Superflow.

KS

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2018, 07:32:00 AM »
When you get some info on the controller, let us know, I'd be putting you closer to a 292/248 ish @.050 duration cam, somewhere around .600 lift, likely early-ish ICL and a 110 LSA assuming you can control the EFI, and likely could go bigger depending on the use of the car and the controller

It's going to be hard NOT to have a fast car with a Cobra, but take some time and think about the end use.  A Cobra likely is easier to drive with more cam to kill a little power down low, but too much and cruising back and forth isn't as fun. 

With a 5 speed on the street, you sort of build for 1st and 5th gear and the others fall into place.  Your 2.71 final drive in 5th won't want a lot of cam, but if done right, will do fine. 1st gear is 9.49, also fine with a light Cobra, but don't want to go overboard with cam as it's on the tall side of a starting line ratio

Bottom line: Pushing you for much more cam than you started with, but I wouldn't go to the extremes unless it's primarily race.

It may be sacrilege, but if you could accept a real exhaust and not sidepipes, it'd be even stronger.  I think Brent has seen 50+ hp loss with Cobra sidepipes, significant difference 
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 07:34:15 AM by My427stang »
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2018, 06:53:01 PM »
I'll take a look at which controller I have and call Rich at FAST.

The first 428FE I had was 400 rwhp, and was disappointed with both TQ andHP, even in my Cobra.
Back in 1977 I built my first car, a Pro-Street (anyone remember those days)  8)

With a 468 Ratt, Mincie rock crusher, Corvette dual disk clutch, billet fly, narrowed Ford 9" with 514 gearing. Used 114 A.V fuel.
That car was very quick and would launch @ 4,000 rpm with the tires off the ground. I've been around dirt winged sprint cars all my
life, and those 360 or 410 engines rock my heart. Other than Top Fuel, sprints always win. With no weight hanging off the crank and no transmission,
the ramp up & down at idle, reving to 8,500 (+) RPM extremely fast is amazing.

Anyway, I and my best friend Chad that I mentioned above, like mechanical rollers, but I'm concerned about the lifters coming apart on the street and cost versus a solid flat or even a hydro roller, with longer lifetime. Chad is an amazing guy, builder, tuner etc, but he and I don't know what FE's need and don't need.

We built highly polished 304 stainless steel side pipes for Cobras, Vetts, Hot Rods etc.The option I built for my car, has the 4"open muffler, no packing, which you can roll a base ball through. lol....It's really not that loud, just great soothing music, to us gearheads anyway.  ;)

With this motor I have, what would you do for the type of cam and specs ?
I'd rather spend some more money now to be really happy, and before installing it into the car.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 07:02:01 PM by 427HISS »

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2018, 07:17:12 AM »
I think as a reference point, I'd start with something like a 294S from Comp and put in on 104.  If you want more chop, consider a custom with a little more exhaust lobe.   Keep the cam timing early though, not because you want the torque, but because you want to minimize reversion.

Don't be afraid of hydraulic either, a similar cam with a set of stock rockers, good push rods, and the correct spring and retainer package will do all you need maintenance free.  (Although I never have to adjust my solids either, it's pretty nice with a stock setup)

As far as that EFI controller, I do not think you'll be happy with it.  It's a very basic self-learner and if you have a buddy who can tune, it'll run real nice.

I wouldn't go a lot more cam than that though

---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2018, 04:36:27 PM »
Curious on which of these 5 would you guys choose ?

COMP Cams Comp Cams F23 294S-12
Oval Track Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshaft
Ford 2000-2300 OHC 4 CYL. 1971-1991
Lift: .503"/.503"
Duration: 300°/300°
Lobe Separation Angle: 112°
RPM Range: 3500-7400   
View Details
$200.99
ESTIMATED SHIP DATE: 03/19/18
 FREE SHIPPING
 LOWEST PRICE GUARANTEE

1
 Add To Cart

COMP Cams 11-219-4
Part Number: 249-11-219-4
COMP Cams Comp Cams Magnum Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshafts
Magnum 294S Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshaft
Lift: .595''/.595"
Duration: 294°/294°
Lobe Separation Angle: 110°
RPM Range: 2500-6500

View Details
$138.99
ESTIMATED SHIP DATE: 03/19/18
 FREE SHIPPING
 LOWEST PRICE GUARANTEE

1
 Add To Cart

COMP Cams 33-246-4
Part Number: 249-33-246-4
COMP Cams Comp Cams Magnum Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshafts
Magnum 294S Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshaft
Lift: .605"/.605"
Duration: 294°/294°
Lobe Separation Angle: 110°
RPM Range: 2500-6500   
View Details
$154.99
ESTIMATED SHIP DATE: 03/28/18
 FREE SHIPPING
 LOWEST PRICE GUARANTEE

1
 Add To Cart

COMP Cams 12-224-4
Part Number: 249-12-224-4
COMP Cams Comp Cams Magnum Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshafts
Magnum 294S Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshaft
Lift: .525''/.525"
Duration: 294°/294°
Lobe Separation Angle: 110°
RPM Range: 2500-6500

View Details
$147.99
ESTIMATED SHIP DATE: 03/12/18
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     (1)

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COMP Cams 20-248-4
Part Number: 249-20-248-4
COMP Cams Comp Cams Magnum Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshafts
Magnum 294S Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshaft
Lift: .525"/.525"
Duration: 294°/294°
Lobe Separation Angle: 110°
RPM Range: 3000-6500   
View Details
$153.99
ESTIMATED SHIP DATE: 03/19/18
 FREE SHIPPING
 LOWEST PRICE GUARANTEE


427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2018, 05:01:11 PM »
If the older FAST setup allows fuel map tuning you are fine going with as big of a cam as you desire.  You can control the fuel map and the limits for O2 based correction.  If you have one of those EZ-EFI systems that are self learning only you will need to be more careful.  I have had a couple of IR setups around 600HP that did not "play well" with the self learning system only - both ended up needing to upgrade to the user tunable setup.

The self learning only systems are entirely reliant upon O2 data to feedback to the computer.  But an O2 sensor is interpreting mixture by reading oxygen.  A rich misfire can cause excess oxygen in the exhaust, and the system mistakenly adds yet more fuel until its drowning the engine.  The more sophisticated EFI systems allow you to manually tune the package into a reasonable state, and from there you can limit the degree of rich/lean correction based on O2 - - preventing a misfire from taking the tune "off the reservation"....

Just spoke with FAST, mine does not have MAP tuning. This one was made from 2006 to 2009.
So, I may drop $900 for my friends stand alone system that be is a dealer for.
I'll get the brand name and which system from him soon.

I think, this is the model # is what we need.

MS3Pro-

https://www.ampefi.com/product/ms3pro-evo-standalone-engine-management-system/
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 05:40:49 PM by 427HISS »

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2018, 06:10:08 PM »
If I was picking out of that list I would pick

COMP Cams 33-246-4
Part Number: 249-33-246-4
COMP Cams Comp Cams Magnum Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshafts
Magnum 294S Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshaft
Lift: .605"/.605"
Duration: 294°/294°
Lobe Separation Angle: 110°
RPM Range: 2500-6500   
View Details
$154.99

However, I did not check any of your part numbers, do not know how your heads are set up for spring pressure or clearance, and I am not saying it is absolutely the best, just a logical cam for use (assuming you use a better controller)
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

jayb

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2018, 07:18:47 PM »
That is the one I use, its an excellent system.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2018, 10:21:49 PM »
If I was picking out of that list I would pick

COMP Cams 33-246-4
Part Number: 249-33-246-4
COMP Cams Comp Cams Magnum Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshafts
Magnum 294S Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshaft
Lift: .605"/.605"
Duration: 294°/294°
Lobe Separation Angle: 110°
RPM Range: 2500-6500   
View Details
$154.99

However, I did not check any of your part numbers, do not know how your heads are set up for spring pressure or clearance, and I am not saying it is absolutely the best, just a logical cam for use (assuming you use a better controller)

That is the one that caught my eye as well.  I beleive the specs would suit my needs and the engine.
I'll need different pushrods, but hoping my Dove roller rockers can still be used. I think their 1.76

Jay, I assume you're talking the MS3PRO for the brain ? 

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2018, 08:56:26 AM »
Just to mention it, that cam is the same cam I mentioned just before you gave us the list to choose from.  I recommended it for performance not whether you are ready to stab it in

The controller is what Jay was referring to

Three important things

1 - Who knows what springs came on that motor you bought, you need to make sure you have the correct springs
2 - Who knows if you'll have valve clearance with the pistons you have, they aren't modern pistons and could have both radial and depth issues, you need to check
3 - Who knows what actual compression is, you need to measure.  I'd expect to advance the cam a little, but without knowing where you are, it's a guess.  On the other hand, having a Cobra a little soft on the bottom could be integral traction control too

Needless to say, buying one complete doesn't negate the leg work.
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2018, 11:27:24 AM »
So, I'll need to start with the cam that is in it, get it running and figured out, then change cams and setup the computer. Or change cams now but install a carb and intake to break the new camshaft in ?  I don't have a intake (sold the Dove 2x4) or a carb.

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2018, 11:45:07 AM »
So, I'll need to start with the cam that is in it, get it running and figured out, then change cams and setup the computer. Or change cams now but install a carb and intake to break the new camshaft in ?  I don't have a intake (sold the Dove 2x4) or a carb.

What's in it for a cam now?

May want to pony up the money for a dyno cam break in, you'd have to get an intake on it, but the shops usually have a carb that is a known performer.  It'd be tough to break a solid flat teppet in on a new EFI build

Again though, it's not just change cams, you need to know what is going on inside.  If you swap a cam and smack 8 intake valves, or stack the springs and break the heads off, you'll be wishing you knew morre
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2018, 12:12:25 PM »
My specs are on the first page.
Chad has two chassis dyno's. He owns "The Shop, inc", in Lincoln.

Doing a cam change with a FE is,...well, a pain vs a Chevy etc. It'll be a lot,....of work. Damn.

Barry_R

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2018, 12:14:09 PM »
it's the exact same amount of work

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2018, 12:26:22 PM »
Barry, I agree. I was just thinking about the differences between only changing intakes.
Wish I had a engine test stand and intake sitting around. Faster and easier.

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2018, 02:06:48 PM »
So your early posts had some typos

Just to clarify, is Post #1, the 270S cam, the cam that is in it now?
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2018, 05:49:31 PM »
Yes.

Ford 428 crank nodgular iron much stronger than cast steel.

Eagle rods

Speed pro pistons and rings. 10:6:1 compression

Internally balanced.

Melling oil pump

Milidon road race oil pan.

Ford distributor and wires. (can be changed per request).

Comp 270s solid lift cam and lifters.

Dove water pump
Dove heavy duty oil pump drive

Dove aluminum cobra jet heads

Dove tunnel wedge 2 x 4 intake with 2 600 holleys

Dove heavy duty rocker assembly.

Engine has been test ran and is ready to install. Currently has a road race oil pan for use in a cobra kit car. Can be changed per request.  Engine has approximately 575 to 585hp.

In it now.

Comp Cams Magnum Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshafts
COMP Cams 11-217-4
Part Number: 249-11-217-4

Operating Range:   1800-5800 RPM
Duration Advertised:   270° Intake / 270° Exhaust
Duration @ .050'' Lift:   224° Intake / 224° Exhaust
Valve Lift:   .530'' Intake / .530'' Exhaust
Valve Setting:   .022'' Intake / .022'' Exhaust
Lobe Separation Angle:   110°
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 05:58:17 PM by 427HISS »

plovett

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2018, 06:44:55 PM »
I am not trying to be a punk or disrespectful, but no way can your engine make 575 hp with a 224@0.050" cam.  I'm just saying it before somebody else does.  I have no doubt it's a great engine, but it is not at that power level with the current cam.  Maybe 100-150 hp less?  I'm not sure exactly.

JMO,

paulie
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 06:52:23 PM by plovett »


My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2018, 08:43:55 PM »
So Paulie is right, but that doesn't make it a bad engine, just means that Dove is BSing, which was apparent in the nodular iron crank comment too.

It's a nice CJ build, all decent but not fancy parts, with a set of heads and intake that flow significantly more than the parts beneath it warrant, but certainly a good setup and would feel like stock 427 but hang in a bit longer IMHO. 

My hunch, with that cam, those heads and TW intake, 475 hp giving it the benefit of the doubt, torque will likely climb with the EFI, but not sure power will The cam will really wake it up. 

However, the combo is likely a nice tight quench, likely right at the advertised compression, the issue is, I think it wouldn't run on pump gas the way he built it, it'd at least be very finicky unless the cam is retarded 4 degrees.

The issue I have with any of this is not knowing what is in the motor.  Slap a 294S in there, if everything is checked out, it'll be a monster, but still short of Dove's numbers IMHO.

Do yourself a favor, slow the boat down a bit.  Get inside it.  Pay someone like Gessford or your buddy to go through it, make sure it's right.  Even if you only check the top end for spring pressure and other parts.  It wouldn't surprise me if the support a 294S, the rockers and pushrods too, this could be as cheap simple as a cam change, but checking clearances and spring pressure now will save much heartache

I think it has the potential to be a great engine, but take your time and know what you have from more than just the list of parts



---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2018, 09:16:40 PM »
For me, it's dissapointing. Chad and another friend told me to stick with what I have and if I'm unhappy, change the valve train later.
I've been waiting 10 years to get the Cobra going again, and to not have what I want, is hurtfull.
My thinking was to buy this Dove engine, because it is one of his, and especially having a low budjet. I don't know why I did not look closer at the cam specs before ? !

One,... reason in having a 427 Cobra, is the grunt, sound & feel.....of an stout engine, not some purring little kitten.
So a real mild engine/cam is not for me. Since I have the rockers off the heads, checking the spring pressure would be easy.
Wish this wasn't such a big issue it's become for me. 

With the larger cam, what spring pressure would my existing rate be ?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 09:30:35 PM by 427HISS »

plovett

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2018, 09:55:18 PM »
Not necessarily any reason to be disappointed.  The cam you have is small.  The thing is, a cam is relatively easy and cheap to change.  By going to the 294S and 24 more degrees @ 0.050" you can gain a huge amount of power.  The rpm range will be moved up a lot which may or may not be what you want.  I'd guess you might gain 60+ hp with the bigger cam.  I'd do it in a heartbeat.  Of course as you mentioned you have to make sure the valvesprings are up to the task of more rpm.    You'll probably need different valvesprings.  Not a huge deal.

JMO,

paulie

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2018, 09:49:13 AM »
Hi Paulie,
Yes, I'm not worried about the cost of a new cam, springs and pushrods, more though with the new computer system. Chad said with it and other parts needed it might be 3k, if I read him completely ?
I'd rather get it all, and all installed before putting the engine in the Cobra, but unless I find someone local that has a starting stand, I don't see it happening. May have to wait till next winter.

As far as this cam moving up the rpm powerband. I was amazed with the first engine that with the light weight of the Cobra, that it wouldn't off the tires at any low rpm. Now, I do have very hard tires, 331 gears, so that doesn't help. But traction is loose.

My point is, with it's light weight and going through the gears the rpm's come up very fast,....shifting very quickly, so having a intake & cam that come in at 1,500 rpm, is not an issue,

I know I'm whining here, but having my 10k and top end parts stolen 10 years ago, and just now getting my spirit back, with a small budget for a engine, clutch, steel bell and tranny, getting to driving her again means the world to me. Surving two near death health issues plus a heart attack, I want to be very happy with this engine. This type of injection is exciting as well !

So, I'm trying everything I can, to get the "best of all worlds" of engine and the fricken "Awesomeness",.....of the best muscle car ever built !  (be nice) lol.

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2018, 07:09:17 PM »
Don't get too disappointed, become a parts checker

With a stock head, Comp recommends the same spring for a 294S and a 270S, and there is no reason I know of that it would need different pushrods to swap those two cams.

The problem is, you don't have a stock head, so we don't know what the springs are.  Do a little measuring or bring the engine to someone and have a cam stabbed in it, have them check clearances, and check the valve springs for open and closed pressure.  This could literally be just the cost of the cam, a few gaskets, and a morning's worth of labor.

Chuck Willard has a dyno in Omaha that could run in the cam for you and give you a baseline.  Of course that means an intake and carb needs to be scrounged, but get er done!




---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2018, 07:30:46 PM »
I assumed, that with taller lobes on that different cam that the pushrods would be too long ?
Lol,....I was coming on to ask if Jay or anyone could run the cam in for me !
That would solve the issue, at least the major issue.

How would Chuck run it in, does he have a FE ready to go, and any idea on cost ?

There is the local Ford club that always called every year to bring my Cobra to their car show. I could contact them asking for a intake & carb to loan me.

Yes, lets Get R Done ! 

(I actually met Larry and his wife walking in the country as I was looking for a lost dog. Really good people)

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2018, 07:44:45 PM »
I assumed, that with taller lobes on that different cam that the pushrods would be too long ?
Lol,....I was coming on to ask if Jay or anyone could run the cam in for me !
That would solve the issue, at least the major issue.

How would Chuck run it in, does he have a FE ready to go, and any idea on cost ?

There is the local Ford club that always called every year to bring my Cobra to their car show. I could contact them asking for a intake & carb to loan me.

Yes, lets Get R Done ! 

(I actually met Larry and his wife walking in the country as I was looking for a lost dog. Really good people)

Chuck wouldn't run in the cam, he'd dyno your engine for you which includes breaking in the cam.  However, i cannot speak for him dynoing an engine he didn't build, maybe there is an engine dyno to run your engine closer to you?

Lift doesn't affect pushrod length.  In most cases, off the shelf cams are the same on the base circle (closed valve), that, as well as other parts determine the length of pushrod you need.  If the base circle doesn't change, which it shouldn't with two off the shelf Comp cams, the pushrod won't change
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2018, 08:49:44 PM »
I believe Chuck Spanel  in Lincoln, charges around $500 for a morning on the dyno. Too much.
Any idea how much your Chuck would charge ?

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2018, 06:10:54 AM »
I believe Chuck Spanel  in Lincoln, charges around $500 for a morning on the dyno. Too much.
Any idea how much your Chuck would charge ?

I don't think you'll find it any cheaper up here.  That sounds pretty reasonable.
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Heo

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2018, 11:27:29 AM »
Build your own test stand and break in the cam  by your self if you are
on a budget



The defenition of a Gentleman, is a man that can play the accordion.But dont do it

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2018, 07:35:30 PM »
I would build my own stand for that much money and cheaper. (Chuck is the man though) !   8)

I have a local FE guy that will loan me a 2 FE barrel intake.
Never seen one like it.
Does it require any Holley or what ?




427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2018, 07:41:27 PM »
Build your own test stand and break in the cam  by your self if you are
on a budget

I even saw one made of wood.


Heo

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2018, 08:23:16 PM »
Autolite 2100 or holley



The defenition of a Gentleman, is a man that can play the accordion.But dont do it

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2018, 09:52:54 PM »
I'll try to search for the Autolite.
Do you have numbers for a Holley ?
Thank you..
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 10:19:04 PM by 427HISS »

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2018, 08:43:34 AM »
A local FE'er has a iron FE intake and a 4 barrel carb. Hope to pick it up today.

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2018, 09:03:21 AM »
I'm excited that I can buy only the cam and lifters, saving money. I don't know what brand that Dove uses, should I get the kit that has the Comp timing gear & chain or not needed, use the installed one ?

No chain-  $210

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-cl33-246-4?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-comp-cams&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9OPz9d702QIVUjyBCh39rQF5EAQYASABEgJniPD_BwE

With -$274

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-sk33-246-4
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 09:08:51 AM by 427HISS »

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2018, 10:07:44 AM »
I'm excited that I can buy only the cam and lifters, saving money. I don't know what brand that Dove uses, should I get the kit that has the Comp timing gear & chain or not needed, use the installed one ?

No chain-  $210

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-cl33-246-4?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-comp-cams&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9OPz9d702QIVUjyBCh39rQF5EAQYASABEgJniPD_BwE

With -$274

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-sk33-246-4

It seems like you misinterpreted something

- If your cam is not broken in, you don't need lifters, just buy the cam.  If the engine has run time, you do need lifters
- I see no reason to swap the timing set
- Did we determine your spring pressures yet?  Just because Comp uses the same springs in a stock Ford application doesn't AT ALL mean that Dove used the same springs  He could have used anything.  You NEED to check the springs, both installed height, closed pressure, and open pressure for the lift of the new cam or you are going to put metal through a brand new engine.  My guess is you will be OK, but it's just a guess, and guesses can bite HARD
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2018, 08:34:49 PM »
The cam that is in it now IS broke in. 20 minutes on their dyno.

He said that this is the kit that was used. I beleive the springs are #280 lb. and were used in all four series cam kits.

282s.

Comp part #835

https://www.amazon.com/COMP-Cams-K33-246-4-Camshaft-294S/dp/B001R98HSK/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1521079199&sr=1-1&keywords=COMP+Cams+K33-246-4
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 09:05:34 PM by 427HISS »

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2018, 03:44:45 PM »
Ok, I have a call to Dove.

The lifter number they gave me is #835, but those have a large champher milled out, mine are a solid cylinder. They are a solid mechanical lifter for the FE's. Attached a pic.

I spoke with Summit tech and the double springs I have are fine for the new cam. One step up # is for higher RPM's

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2018, 06:27:02 PM »
Sounds like Dove used a shell lifter or if it looks like a hydraulic lifter, maybe he used a BBF/SBF style, no worries, but you have to replace it with the same style because push rod length will be different otherwise

As far as your valve springs, as long as you are 100% sure, because you'll be paying the bill if you eat a cam. If it were me, I'd pop one off and check installed height, then closed pressure at that height, and open pressure at full lift with the new cam.



« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 06:29:11 PM by My427stang »
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2018, 09:13:25 PM »
I'll ask Chad to aid in finding out for sure. He has all the valvetrain tools, I don't.
I'm sure they are shell's, but I don't beleive they come in the kit, the type in pic is what I've seen.
Why is the latter used and it's purpose ?

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #49 on: March 20, 2018, 09:36:35 AM »
Talked with him today, and they are Shell lifters. He likes them because their light weight.
Guess nobody makes them anymore.


cammerfe

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #50 on: March 20, 2018, 11:47:52 AM »
As of several months ago, Jim Dove was in a nursing home, and not expected to get back to being his old self. Whoever you're talking to---Earl was doing day-to-day last I knew---is probably not the one who did the 'hands-on' of building the engine. You are getting, at best, second-hand information. I'd treat it as a collection of excellent parts, at least as far as the upper end is concerned. Or else put it in as it now is and after driving for a couple of months, decide if you want to make changes.

Making the cam specs a bit more radical might well serve to kill off a bit of low-speed torque and make for easier driving in a light car.

KS

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #51 on: March 20, 2018, 02:52:07 PM »
I would have to agree, if that cam is already broken in, and if you are on a limited budget, just run it.  Come back to the cam later.

---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #52 on: March 20, 2018, 07:49:33 PM »
I spoke with Jim on our first call, then Earl since. He would ask Jim with a few of my specific questions but he would take over.
I'd rather get the engine I want all at once, if able. I used to love working on cars, but with my bad health it's very difficult. If it weren't for a couple of gearhead friends, I don't know what I'd be doing. I do want a larger cam and since I don't have to buy the entire drivetrain, a cam and lifters is great.

So, lets get it done the first time around.

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #53 on: March 21, 2018, 08:20:47 AM »
Just to be a bit of a wise guy, but meant to be helpful in the end...there is no "us" it's all you because the only thing checked correctly in an engine will be done by you, or paid for by you. Talking on the phone with Dove or Summit won't be adequate, and is IMHO a dangerous waste of time because you could have already measured the springs.  Figure out if your buddy can do it, or drop the engine off somewhere, you need to measure spring height and pressure and check for valve clearance.

The alternative?  Either you get lucky, or you smack a valve into the piston, or you eat a cam and send metal through the engine, or you stack a spring and break something that causes many things to break.  This is a no-kidding warning and what we all do

How to do it
- Pull a valve spring and any shims, then put the keeper/retainer back on, no spring.  Measure the available space
- Subtract the shim if there is one, from the number you measured.  That is installed height
- Then subtract the lift of your cam at the valve from that number then add back in the lash (but I usually go .010 less lash to give me room for tuning), that is open height.
- Bring the spring to the machine shop and have them check pressure at both numbers

There are a couple reasons why it is critical

- Your new cam is .065 more lift, let's say the springs were what they said. That would add 22 lbs and you'd be in the 300 open range.  Good enough if you are careful with break in. However, what if he shimmed them more and they were tighter, or what if they weren't what he said they were?  We already see he used shell lifters instead off off the shelf dumbells. The only way to be sure is measure

- The second reason is, if he went with a spring unable to take .605 lift, which is common, the coils stack and can break a valve head or eat a cam instantly, likely the latter.

Once you determine your spring pressures, then you can mock the head up with a checking spring and check both intake and exhaust valve clearance.  Nothing wrong with the pistons he chose, but they aren't high performance and have both a shallow and small diameter valve relief.  I generally check in 5 degree increments from 20 BTDC to 5 after on the intake side, and use clay for radial clearance.  If you don't you are counting on luck.

After all that, you need to decide if you are going to get a second set of shell lifters, take a chance the ones you have with so little time on them (dangerous but has been done) or buy new dumbbell lifters and pushrods, but if you buy new push rods, you need to do that after you get everything together and measure length with a push a pushrod checker to make sure the adjusters are in the right place

I may sound blunt, but you are choosing a path that takes time, money, measuring and thinking, not much asking and discussing.  Certainly do not trust Summit or second hand info from Dove when it is so easy to measure these things.  A sat morning or two at a machine shop and it'd be done, except for waiting for pushrods
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

RJP

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #54 on: March 21, 2018, 11:24:52 AM »
Just to be a bit of a wise guy, but meant to be helpful in the end...there is no "us" it's all you because the only thing checked correctly in an engine will be done by you, or paid for by you. Talking on the phone with Dove or Summit won't be adequate, and is IMHO a dangerous waste of time because you could have already measured the springs.  Figure out if your buddy can do it, or drop the engine off somewhere, you need to measure spring height and pressure and check for valve clearance.

The alternative?  Either you get lucky, or you smack a valve into the piston, or you eat a cam and send metal through the engine, or you stack a spring and break something that causes many things to break.  This is a no-kidding warning and what we all do

How to do it
- Pull a valve spring and any shims, then put the keeper/retainer back on, no spring.  Measure the available space
- Subtract the shim if there is one, from the number you measured.  That is installed height
- Then subtract the lift of your cam at the valve from that number then add back in the lash (but I usually go .010 less lash to give me room for tuning), that is open height.
- Bring the spring to the machine shop and have them check pressure at both numbers

There are a couple reasons why it is critical

- Your new cam is .065 more lift, let's say the springs were what they said. That would add 22 lbs and you'd be in the 300 open range.  Good enough if you are careful with break in. However, what if he shimmed them more and they were tighter, or what if they weren't what he said they were?  We already see he used shell lifters instead off off the shelf dumbells. The only way to be sure is measure

- The second reason is, if he went with a spring unable to take .605 lift, which is common, the coils stack and can break a valve head or eat a cam instantly, likely the latter.

Once you determine your spring pressures, then you can mock the head up with a checking spring and check both intake and exhaust valve clearance.  Nothing wrong with the pistons he chose, but they aren't high performance and have both a shallow and small diameter valve relief.  I generally check in 5 degree increments from 20 BTDC to 5 after on the intake side, and use clay for radial clearance.  If you don't you are counting on luck.

After all that, you need to decide if you are going to get a second set of shell lifters, take a chance the ones you have with so little time on them (dangerous but has been done) or buy new dumbbell lifters and pushrods, but if you buy new push rods, you need to do that after you get everything together and measure length with a push a pushrod checker to make sure the adjusters are in the right place

I may sound blunt, but you are choosing a path that takes time, money, measuring and thinking, not much asking and discussing.  Certainly do not trust Summit or second hand info from Dove when it is so easy to measure these things.  A sat morning or two at a machine shop and it'd be done, except for waiting for pushrods
The above is sound advice. I strongly suggest you take it.

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2018, 01:24:48 PM »
Ok.

I really appreciate your advise, but I feel like you are coming down on me for something I haven't done.
I already told you that I will be having Chad check the springs. The information from  Mr. Dove, Earl and Summit is just that, information.
I consider them two as engine builders, like many trustworthy builders. Do you guys trust well known engine builders for your engines or do you test out  all their work ? Just asking....

Why should I disrespect their knowledge, many years of engine building, and parts used ?
If I had you guys build me an engine, would you want me to check our your work by taking apart some of the heads to see if what you said were in it, or trust you and run thr engine ?

But, I still plan on replacing the lifters and checking the springs per your advise before ordering the cam.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 06:12:31 PM by 427HISS »

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #56 on: March 23, 2018, 01:31:11 AM »
Well, after talking with my wife and Chad, we've decided to wait and change the cam until this winter.
With my health being poor and already spring, we're going to slow down. It's both sad yet almost a relief trying to rush to get it done.
Chad's racing season will start soon, racing his Vette and sprint car, I don't want to hamper his time off from rung his business and family.

So, I'm almost done painting the block, bell and tranny, then we can anchor the F/I on the engine, install the tranny and setup the FAST system, and hopfully, it'll run well enough to get by, if we don't like it, then I'll get the MS3Pro next winter. 

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #57 on: March 23, 2018, 04:36:10 AM »
I am very sorry to hear about your health, but don't worry, that car will still be very fast. 

If you can do it, while the valve covers are off, close the valve lash up to about .014 cold and that cam will have a little more oats to it
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

cammerfe

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #58 on: March 23, 2018, 08:07:31 AM »
Regarding health, in my head I'm about 25, maybe more like 30. I'm researching ways to lower that---maybe be able to get it down below my belt buckle. ;)

KS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #59 on: March 23, 2018, 11:19:58 AM »
It sucks sitting here knowing I should be working on the Cobra, but because of my bad health I can't.
 It does relief the pressure I've,...... put on myself the last few months.

We'll get her done and driving again.

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #60 on: March 23, 2018, 01:22:38 PM »
Ok.

I really appreciate your advise, but I feel like you are coming down on me for something I haven't done.
I already told you that I will be having Chad check the springs. The information from  Mr. Dove, Earl and Summit is just that, information.
I consider them two as engine builders, like many trustworthy builders. Do you guys trust well known engine builders for your engines or do you test out  all their work ? Just asking....

Why should I disrespect their knowledge, many years of engine building, and parts used ?
If I had you guys build me an engine, would you want me to check our your work by taking apart some of the heads to see if what you said were in it, or trust you and run thr engine ?


But, I still plan on replacing the lifters and checking the springs per your advise before ordering the cam.
Personally I would not be offended if you wanted to check my work. In fact I would encourage it.

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #61 on: March 23, 2018, 09:29:13 PM »
I know, to make more HP without going with a larger cam, I'll drill my stack injection manifold for a 250 shot of NOS.
Problem solved.   ;)

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #62 on: March 24, 2018, 07:39:54 AM »
Ok.

I really appreciate your advise, but I feel like you are coming down on me for something I haven't done.
I already told you that I will be having Chad check the springs. The information from  Mr. Dove, Earl and Summit is just that, information.
I consider them two as engine builders, like many trustworthy builders. Do you guys trust well known engine builders for your engines or do you test out  all their work ? Just asking....

Why should I disrespect their knowledge, many years of engine building, and parts used ?
If I had you guys build me an engine, would you want me to check our your work by taking apart some of the heads to see if what you said were in it, or trust you and run thr engine ?

But, I still plan on replacing the lifters and checking the springs per your advise before ordering the cam.

I just saw this post, and thought it was worth answering.

1 - Dove didn't build you a 294S cammed 428 with stack injection.  He built you a 270S carbed engine.  So looking close if the parts will work from one to another is what engine builders do.  I don't know how good Dove is, but if he is sick and his partner is relaying info, I would not consider the information anywhere near as good as you'll get on this board.

2 - I have had 2 relatively recent "pro built" parts prepped.  A set of heads I used on a customers 390 build, and the block I trusted as a replacement on my 445. Both bit me.  The heads were supposed to be set up for specific spring pressures that I provided through the customer, they were 75 lbs higher open.  I didn't check because of the guy's reputation.  I ate a cam, I ate the cost to fix it.   

The block you can go back and check my posts on my 445.  I was speeding a bit, but willing to do so on my own build (I wouldn't do that on one I was getting paid for), but a "properly" prepared block ended up having a warped deck and bores deformed badly with the heads on.  I checked the bore carefully on that one during assembly, but not with a torque plate and not with the head on, and it cost me an incredible amount of time and decent amount of money when it was said and done.

Rolling back to 2006, I got a set of Keith Craft-prepped heads, sent them back twice for shoddy workmanship and finally had to do them myself combined with a local porter because shipping back and forth was costing me money that wasn't going toward any good.  Measuring and disassembly got me to find the problems, if I would have bolted them on, my 489 would not have made the power or run, almost literally untouched, since 2006 as it has.

3 - If, and only if, you had a full blueprinted spec sheet, and it said specific part numbers and how springs were shimmed, what installed height, etc, as many of the real good guys do.  I may gamble more.  However, I do not sense that you got that kind of info with your motor.  That could mean it wasn't done based on the level of performance, or, it could just be that it wasn't documented.   In fact, you referenced another Ebay ad for some parts, not even yours.  I know it was a reference point, but without specific info, like the lifters not being what you expected, you cannot assume anything.

4 - We aren't coming down on you.  I understand that you are on a budget and understand you have had some bad luck in the past.  Now criminal or rip-off artists are tougher to stop, but parts choice bad luck is generally overcome by planning and verifying.  If you dropped that engine off to me, we would spend as much time planning as we would doing.  Stabbing a cam and checking the springs is just doing the job, making sure the entire engine does what you want the first time, and has the parts to do so, takes some thinking. 

I truly feel for you, especially when I hear someone is disappointed. I want to see everyone happy with their build, but I truly recommend you do this in increments. Also I appreciate that you are honoring our advice. Don't worry, it'll be fast if that EFI works out OK.  This engine will have more cylinder head and close to the same cam as a factory Cobra.  It also will have a better transmission with better gear ratios.  My hunch, you may not like the idle, but if you crank the lash down, you'll get a little chop and it'll run so well you'll be pretty happy
« Last Edit: March 24, 2018, 02:02:08 PM by My427stang »
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #63 on: March 24, 2018, 08:58:57 PM »
Life is amazing when you can't count on others for quality. I remember many years ago, you could trust most everyone, whether it be family, friends, neighbor or engine builders. Today, not so much. Real long story, but in short. I built my 427 Cobra in 2000, bought a 428
from Carroll Shelby right before he opened his new shop in Vegas. Drove the car until 2004. I'm diabetic and got very sick with what's called, septic blood. Almost died in the hospital, stayed for 13 days. Back home for 5 days, returned to the hospital nearly in a coma. Was flown to the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota. After 4 days I almost died for the second time and was placed into a coma state so my organs may have a chance to recover. They cleaned and stripped my blood four times along with some bone marrow and blood cells. Was able to come home after 27 days. I'm on medications for all my organs for life. The total bill was $267,000. The MedFlight cost was $17,000. We fought with the hospital, insurance company and medication for four years, so our out of pocket bills were apx $29,000. I had to sell my Shelby engine and Tremec trans to help pay.

In 2008 I passed out while driving my truck, because my pain went from level 5 to 10, almost instantly (most of Thar time it creeps up) crossed the street, into someones deck, their breezeway and into their living room. Even though it apx 5:00 PM, none of the 5 people were home. I broke only my hip by the force of my lap belt. They could not get me out for an hour, as my truck was holding up the second story. It remained there until midnight.
Their insurance company ended up tearing down the old house (driving through the old part of town) as the structure was too badly damaged.
All,...of us were very blessed by Thar Lord ! I can't imagine,... hurting or worse, any of them, especially the children.

As a two year old I had a bad fall, cracking my skull, was in a coma for three days. Since then I have headaches, mi grain amount of pain and electrical zaps in my head 24/7, which all changes many times per day, some days or weeks better or worse. Had to stop working at 25 years old, I'm now 55. I have other health problems as well, and had a heart attack in Nov 2016, so just the medication bills every month are very,.... high.

I made a advertising deal with a noted FE engine builder to build a Genesis aluminum 427 Side Oil er block and rotating assembly from some well known racing part company's to build a sponsor built up to date, modern Side Oiler engine and drivetrain for three magazines.
The engine builder stole, sold or used all the parts. All of this took my "spirit for life" for 10 years. Four months ago we decided that after we pay off my MedFlight bill, we would take out a bank loan to build a engine, clutch and tranny in two years.  A close friend (we're actually closer than brothers)
said because of my new and old health issues, my friend Chad gave us the money to get the Cobra back running "NOW" and pay back when we can !
It took me a week of thinking to decide on, yes. I will for ever Love Chad ! 

Along with my brain damage, having chronic pain (which it's hard to concentrate) and learning disability, school was/is very difficult. Because I missed so many days in high school, I did not have enough credits to go through to my Jr. year.

With help from my family, friends and faith, I've always tried to have a good attitude and sense of humor.

Sorry this ended up being longer than I thought. The Cobra means the world to me. Times when I'm feeling just well enough to drive, but down mentally, I fire it up, listing to the rump, thump of the cam and no muffler side pipes, cruz around our small town street's then down the highway and back, if only for 20 minutes, I feel much better. I went through 1.3 years of autobody school, know how to weld and built the Cobra myself except for the engine. I built a Pro-Street Camaro when I was 18. Helped a guy racing sprint cars etc.

I don't mean to say my life is bad all the time, it's not, I've done and seen many great things and people in my life, it just suck's at times like most of us. No matter what happend in life, we just need to keep trucking on. (or in my case, keep Cobra'ing on) lol....
Kevin

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #64 on: March 25, 2018, 08:46:48 AM »
Kevin,

Continue to hang in there, sounds like a seriously tough run, but you have good friends and family.

As a career aviator and AF officer, I find I am very objective based and try to separate emotion from decision.  It's not always possible, but balancing toys, health, and limited budget, it's critical to try. 

I think you have come to this conclusion already, but I would look at it this way, the benefits of the Cobra to you are beyond what a single camshaft or engine controller will provide.  In fact, my hunch is, a standard 360 truck motor, on a cool Nebraska night would be MUCH better than what you have to play with now, so having a built 428 should be significantly more.

So, I would recommend the following

1 - Get the Cobra running the most cost effective way possible, with the purpose to make 2018 better than 2017   I would buy nothing extra, period.  Iron water pump, black painted brackets, current ECM controller (I actually would have likely even kept carbs in this case, just to hear that baby roar again)  Focus on getting that thing driving.

2 - Get to know the car, and this winter, make changes to make 2019 better than 2018. On a Saturday morning you can swap to an aluminum water pump.  Some cold winter month you can swap engine controllers and get it on a chassis dyno, etc.  Maybe even a cam swap.  Plan those events and research them to both take your time, discuss, and then decide on a course of action.

To be blunt, I think you are trying to cram 20 lbs into a 10 lb bag.  Prioritizing as above will get you a running car now and something to look forward to each winter.

As far as quality, forget the past, shit was bad back then too, you just weren't looking as close.  Chevy pickups, Ford Pintos, etc blew up in accidents, aftermarket parts were hardly available, and a motor like yours is NOW was state of the art at 450 hp.  We tend to look back on the good old days, but things are like they always were, you just had to trust the local guy because there wasn't a way to ask the world like there is today. 

Good luck, and take that pile of parts and get it running, with what you have, if you focus, it could be ready for April!
« Last Edit: March 25, 2018, 08:50:31 AM by My427stang »
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #65 on: March 25, 2018, 10:14:56 PM »
You are correct, I need to settle down and get her running again so I can get back to the enjoyment of not only driving a 427 Cobra, but mine !
I can be a bit of perfectionist, so I was trying to get it almost perfect, so when I fire her up the first time after 10 years, I'd hear this motor rumble with a bigger cam, one that knocks the fillings off my teeth. lol

I'm so fired up buddy, but I'm back down on earth now, with Chad, Patty (wife) and you my friend. I was putting a lot of pressure on myself to get it done asap. That PSI of my mind is down now, so going back to a calm piece of mind feeling better yet excited.

I took the throttle bodies off today for painting, and noticed that underneith the flat black paint, is blue anodizing !
Now I need to find something to remove the paint while not hurting the anodizing. It doesn't look so far,....that the previous owner did not scuff the anodizing prior to painting. We'll see.

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #66 on: June 11, 2018, 05:49:18 PM »
So Paulie is right, but that doesn't make it a bad engine, just means that Dove is BSing, which was apparent in the nodular iron crank comment too.

It's a nice CJ build, all decent but not fancy parts, with a set of heads and intake that flow significantly more than the parts beneath it warrant, but certainly a good setup and would feel like stock 427 but hang in a bit longer IMHO. 

My hunch, with that cam, those heads and TW intake, 475 hp giving it the benefit of the doubt, torque will likely climb with the EFI, but not sure power will The cam will really wake it up. 

However, the combo is likely a nice tight quench, likely right at the advertised compression, the issue is, I think it wouldn't run on pump gas the way he built it, it'd at least be very finicky unless the cam is retarded 4 degrees.

The issue I have with any of this is not knowing what is in the motor.  Slap a 294S in there, if everything is checked out, it'll be a monster, but still short of Dove's numbers IMHO.

Do yourself a favor, slow the boat down a bit.  Get inside it.  Pay someone like Gessford or your buddy to go through it, make sure it's right.  Even if you only check the top end for spring pressure and other parts.  It wouldn't surprise me if the support a 294S, the rockers and pushrods too, this could be as cheap simple as a cam change, but checking clearances and spring pressure now will save much heartache

I think it has the potential to be a great engine, but take your time and know what you have from more than just the list of parts

Being away from my post for a while, I'm reading through it again, but wanted to ask questions about the the reply above while thinking about it.
It looks like I won''t have the car done at least fall if not longer, sad but I'm trying my best I can. One good thing is, no need to rush right now.  My health sucks and my buddy Chad is very,...busy, and he's opened a second shop.

Because of my health I need,..this engine to be done right. My health will be getting worse year to year now, so I may end up stopping driving in 5-8 years. I wish I could build this as a dream engine, but I don''t have another 10k lol....

So, I'm DEFINITELY,.....stepping up to that cam, and really wanting wanting the stand alone computer rather than the FAST, even if it takes all winter.
It's been over 10 years, so rushing it now could be a serious problem for my health, the engine and the Cobra, and I can't have anymore problems.

I still need to sell my sprint car parts to add to the budget, it would help a lot. Feeling like crap all the time sucks, but I need to get to it done.

« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 07:34:57 PM by 427HISS »

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #67 on: June 12, 2018, 06:49:27 AM »
If you are going to do that, then I recommend you pull the heads, cc the chambers, measure deck clearance, ID the pistons, we can recommend a head gasket that will work best depending on quench, and then we can really pick a cam that is right for the application
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #68 on: June 14, 2018, 10:30:48 AM »
I watched a compcams video about solid flat tappet cam. They said unlike roller lifters, you can not reuse a flat tappet cam because they wear to the specific lobe. So, with Dove breaking in the engine on a dyno or test stand, and me wanting the bigger cam, do I need to buy new lifters ?

How do I find out the rocker arms ratio ?  I think,....thier 1:76 but will call Dove if needed. Need to find out after all the valve train is done to measure measure for new push rods. Maybe I should order everything new except for the rockers & timing chain ?

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #69 on: June 14, 2018, 08:08:37 PM »
You cannot reuse flat tappets (at least that's the story, but I have seen plenty of guys get away with it over the years)

That being said, if that info is new to you, and if it's going to be a while until you fire it, I would not do it until the car is ready to run, or you can get it on a dyno.

In fact, I am flip-flopping, I really think given your budget and buddy's limited schedule, you should just run the current cam.  If you assemble it and eat a new cam, then engine will have to come all the way down again, and if you swap cams and let it sit, or it doesn't fire properly, or you make a mistake, it's likely to happen and you will be further behind

The other option would be to drop it off somewhere to have it swapped and the cam broken in on a run stand, or better yet, on a dyno, but I understand the budget issues

As far as rocker ratio, if they are Dove adjustables, they are supposed to be 1.76.  Setup can change it slightly as can manufacturing differences.  Very few adjustable rockers for the FE are not 1.76 (other than old Isky or custom)
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 08:11:03 PM by My427stang »
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #70 on: August 19, 2018, 09:12:30 PM »
If I was picking out of that list I would pick

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=947&sb=0

COMP Cams 33-246-4
Part Number: 249-33-246-4
COMP Cams Comp Cams Magnum Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshafts
Magnum 294S Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshaft
Lift: .605"/.605"
Duration: 294°/294°
Lobe Separation Angle: 110°
RPM Range: 2500-6500   
View Details
$154.99

However, I did not check any of your part numbers, do not know how your heads are set up for spring pressure or clearance, and I am not saying it is absolutely the best, just a logical cam for use (assuming you use a better controller)


I beleive it's the same, but according to Comps site, the duration is much lower at 248/248, not 294/294  ?

Description       
   Print Specs   
Submit
Return to Search Results
Part Number:   
33-246-4
Grind Number:   
294S
 
Lifter Type:   
Solid Lifter
Engine Family:   
Ford 352-428 c.i. 8 CYL. 1963-1976
Description:   
Solid-Good for Street / Strip cars. Use 10:1+ compression, low gears, 3000+ stall or 4 speed. Very rough idle.
Cam Family:   
Magnum™ Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshafts
Specifications           Intake   Exhaust
RPM Range:   
2500 to 6500
Valve Lash:   
0.022
 
0.022
Valve Timing:   
0.015
Duration:   
294
 
294
Lobe Separation:     
110°
Duration @ .050" Lift:   
248
 
248
Intake Centerline:   
106°
Valve Lift:   
0.605
 
0.605
        Lobe Lift:   

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=947&sb=0
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 09:14:30 PM by 427HISS »

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #71 on: August 28, 2018, 05:26:49 PM »
Ross ?

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #72 on: August 28, 2018, 07:06:53 PM »
Look again at what you posted, the answer is in your own post :) 

294 is advertised duration, 248 is @ .050, same cam!
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #73 on: August 29, 2018, 09:55:02 PM »
I see that now.
Thank you !

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #74 on: August 30, 2018, 07:37:17 PM »
How far can we increase the duration without hurting performance, with a solid roller ?

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #75 on: August 31, 2018, 08:33:08 AM »
I don't understand your question Kevin

1 - More duration generally makes more power, but raises the RPM it makes that power and generally makes the curve have more of a peak (as opposed to a flat curve), and generally loses power down low.
2 - Without matching the cam to the rest of the build, statements like this can cause problems, you cannot come up with a general rule.  Roller cams run from the 230s to 270s @ .050 (can even be higher), and every one is "best" for making power in a certain application
3 - My opinion hasn't changed, for your desired use, I wouldn't be chasing cams yet.  Get the car going, get the EFI working, no worries about breaking in the cam because it is already, and then make a decision later.  With your setup, the car will be faster than a factory Cobra

Chasing a horsepower without specific application and environment number is  a fool's errand.  Normal operating range, desired use of the car, fuel availability, all the other engine components, environmental (weather, temp, stop and go traffic) all go into the choice of a cam
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #76 on: September 03, 2018, 12:13:17 PM »
Anyone ?

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #77 on: September 03, 2018, 03:13:45 PM »
Mine didn't count?  or do you disagree?
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #78 on: September 03, 2018, 11:23:14 PM »
No, just more ideas and discussion. I meant to say anyone,... else.
 No disrespect my friend.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 11:28:07 PM by 427HISS »

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #79 on: September 04, 2018, 07:04:33 AM »
I think the reason you aren't getting more answers is the question is too vague

"How drunk can I get until I am too drunk?"

A cam is a trade off, just like the gears on a bike.  Is 1st gear or 10th gear better?  It depends if you want to go uphill or downhill.  As you add duration, or change any cam characteristic, you gain somewhere and lose somewhere, and it has to match end use and other parts to be "right"

If you are asking about your Cobra, you are likely somewhere between the 224 duration range to the 250 duration range, however, the bigger you get, the harder to tune (or at least you need a good EFI system and some practice with it), and less low end you will have, and to quote our president, the difference in that range is "YUGE"

Try not to think about components, think about systems, where do you want your whole car to behave?  idle to 5000, with most of the time cruising? most of the time on I-80 doing 80? 0-100 at the dragstrip with a peak of 6500 and a 6900 rpm shift point?  Little or no concern about tuning?  All of these are "perfect" for one owner, horrible for another.

Also, remember the cam alone doesn't determine RPM range, intake, exhaust, cam, even the tops of the pistons (less on an FE than others)all determine how deep it breathes.  And if given the choice over big cam, bad heads, or good heads, smaller cam, I'll pick the latter on the street

Here's something that will go against a lot of normal logic.  My short bed F100 4x4, had a stout 445 in it, likely 500 hp range and pretty much matched well.  I temporarily put a nice little zero deck 390 in it, baby cam, likely 350 HP.  The truck is more fun with the little engine, little cam, to the point I am rethinking how (and if) I am going to do the 462 on the stand.  It pulls hard, makes nice music, just less than the 445, but it fits the truck real well

Now for you, say your engine is 440 HP, a cam swap gets you to 475, you need to think through where you pay for that.  Good thing on a Cobra, assuming you have a high end EFI you can adjust, overcamming isn't as bad because it's light, and loss of bottom end can help with traction.  However, go too far and you may not like in town and 5th gear. Also, I mentioned it earlier, remember, add a few hundred RPM for a shift point, as you get above a 5800-6000 RPM HP peak, you start getting to where parts matter a little bit more if shifting at 6400, and who knows how Dove built that motor.

---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #80 on: September 04, 2018, 08:29:07 PM »
Lot's of good thinking and explanations Ross.
My problem is wanting the best with a lower budjet, high HP with kick in the ass low rpm to mid TQ, with a nasty sounding rumble.

I grew up with dirt track racing modifides then to 360 and 410 cu. sprint car racing, so racing engines are in my heart and spirit.
NOTHING,....sounds like a sprint engine, with Little weight off the crank. The ramp up and down at idle is amazing sounding, then hit the fuel hard and it comes alive. Same kind of feeling with a top fuel engine. Nothing like them.

So, since both are not possible in a street engine, I need to some of both, sound, show and go.

I also grew up in the "Pro-Street" days, with blown big blocks, fats on the back, skinnies up front, giving all the sences a big boost !
If I could afford a BBM's new aluminum 427 side oiler, their heads  etc, or a new Shelby system with big bores and stroke and with my stack injection to over 482 cid, for 600 HP (+) it would be very close to my dream motor. A friend  has a KC 482 engine and cost around $18,000 with apx 550 HP.

I almost bought a 460 block and stroked and bored it up to 557 cu. Easy 650 HP (+) for under $11,000, depending.....
But, I wanted to stay with a 427 Cobra's FE engine and I'm not sure it would fit under my hood scoop. Some brands of replica's do others don't.

I will spend the extra for a stand alone laptop computer system over the EZ learn computer that came with my EFI.

Being my last engine, I want to try and get all aspects what I need and want, with a tight bugjet.


My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #81 on: September 05, 2018, 06:52:50 AM »
So, Kevin, been riding this with you for a while and as a fellow Nebraskan I say this  You want as close as you can to your perfect engine, but on a decent budget to buy parts but not retail labor. (correct me if I am wrong)  As they say: fast, reliable, or cheap, pick any 2

Unfortunately, there is no such engine that will do everything you want without some dough.  However, if you really want to try, I would pull the heads yourself, check what you have for pistons and then have someone like Gessford cc the heads, figure out your compression and make sure springs will work and pick a cam for desired use, we can help when we know what you have.  In fact, it will likely be minutes after you post that me, Jay, Brent, Barry or a host of others can recommend a cam. 

May even want to consider scouting some used parts, a good flat tappet that is already broken in would save some concern and money, and maybe Gessford even has something lying around that would give you some snotty chop.  A roller would take away some worry, but you still need to know what's in the enginee, because if Dove built it with a 270H cam, I doubt he used pistons with deep valve pockets, and to pick a cam, you need to know what's in there before you spend over 1000 dollars on cam, distributor gear, etc just to smack the valves against the pistons

However, we know no more about what Dove put in that engine now than we did when you bought it.  If you want more, you have to do more and that means going inside to make this motor do what you want
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

cammerfe

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #82 on: September 05, 2018, 12:37:37 PM »
I built a 397 FE a while back in which I put a Comp cam with similar numbers---sorta. Mine had 242-248, on 110, but with a bit more lift. When we fired it on the dyno, I was completely happy! Sounded great.

With a set of done-up (by Wayne Kuchtyn) F-5 Dove heads and intake and an 850 Holley dyno carb (I was going to go to EFI in the truck), it made 499 HP on the first full pull, and had no problem going to 7500, with the peak at about 6900. Comp picked the details from such information as head flow (from a Superflow) and compression, (about 11.5-1)---and truck weight and gearing.

I told them I wanted the most possible while providing the street manners of the 'AA' factory cam in my '64 Custom/427 with 4.11 'town' gears. They got it right the first time!!

My '63 Effie weighed about 3800 and also had 4.11 gears. I'd believe your Cobra---weighs what? about 2500-2600?---will scoot with what you've got there.

KS
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 12:40:40 PM by cammerfe »

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #83 on: September 05, 2018, 06:22:27 PM »
Guys, I'm almost shacking in my boots (actually in my slippers, don't feel well) after speaking on the phone with my engine builder that stole my FE block and parts from many years ago !  I saw him on facebook and sent him a calm message, but stern. He says he has most of my parts, but not the Genesis block. He will be sending them either on Friday or Monday. If true,... I'm excited !
I won't trust him, but I'm hopeful.

It's been 13 years now, Sal I don't recall all the specs, but here are some of what he's sending back.

Like my nephew would say,...I'm STOAKED!    ;D

Callies Compstar BBC  H Beam Rods- # CSB700ES3B8AH
Big end-3.325
Pin end- .990
Material- 4340

MAHLE pitons- PR # 99-921
FF3267375120  9021  01

Melling oil pump.

RobbMc Reglat or & Fuel pump.

MSD Pro Billet Distributor  PN- 8549

MSD 6-AL ignition

MSD 9m plug wires

FE Crank spacer

Polished timing cover

Denso spark plugs

Full gasket set

ARP- full bolt kit (in & out)

Almost every part that Canton has for the FE.

Road racing oil pan with crank scraper, windage tray, gaskets.

Oil pickup

Oil remote kit

Canister fuel filter.

Oil catch can

Accusump- 3qt full system with billet mounts, clamps, electric pro-kit, dash switch, ball valve. etc...

Ram 10.5 dual clutch

Billet aluminum flywheel

Quick Time bellhousing.

CVF - Polished & coated pulley's

I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting after so many years.....






« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 06:34:45 PM by 427HISS »

TomP

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #84 on: September 07, 2018, 09:02:16 PM »
After reading all this stuff. I say get the car running with a carb. 8 stack intake can be put on later. Same deal with cams, easy to change. It isn't like you have eight project cars like me. Take a cue from Rick with the self built EFI 390in his 62 Falcon. He is no rich guy and has had the car up and running with carbs and the EFI.
 Stuff can be changed around after the fact, it's not like the wrong cam is a critical error. But I like to err on the large side. I read the cam catalog FE listings from the bottom up rather than the top down... 6500-9500 rev range? A little high... try the one above.

In a 428 a duration under 230 will not sound nasty, the loud exhaust will make that evident. Most good sounding ones are 250+ duration at .050 but also not usually EFI.

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #85 on: September 08, 2018, 01:00:24 PM »
My last duration was 252/260. @050.  501 lift.

But, like mentioned I'll just replace the cam and see how I like the output.

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #86 on: September 08, 2018, 03:48:09 PM »
But, like mentioned I'll just replace the cam and see how I like the output.

and springs, and retainers, and maybe even pistons if you don't have valve clearance....

It feels like a democracy, but the engine gets the final vote, and nobody knows whats in it yet
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #87 on: September 08, 2018, 06:49:21 PM »
Of course....everything will be checked out and buy all new matching valvetrain. I won't be tearing down the block etc.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 06:54:47 PM by 427HISS »

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #88 on: July 07, 2019, 05:04:06 PM »
I was reading my first post and had to correct one thing, I said my builder stole 19k.... in parts & money, but it was actually 10k.
The second mention was 10k also, but wanted to revise the first.

Update.

Things are always going slow due to my health, my left arm still hurts and still a year later I can't lift 30lbs, but I did get my Ram bullet flywheel mounted. I started a thread on pilot bushings "Depth Of Trans Input Shaft Into Pilot Bushing'' the bushing, disk and diaphragm went together perfect. Very happy with the billet install tool. I still need to decide on the type of cam, mechanical roller, hydraulic roller and the specs. I have Dove's 1:76 roller rockers. And need to purchase the engine computer. I'll sell the FAST EZ learn computer that came with the injection.

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #89 on: July 07, 2019, 05:56:50 PM »
Also, anybody here have a good 427 side oiler block you don't need ?

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #90 on: July 07, 2019, 06:46:50 PM »
But, like mentioned I'll just replace the cam and see how I like the output.

and springs, and retainers, and maybe even pistons if you don't have valve clearance....

It feels like a democracy, but the engine gets the final vote, and nobody knows whats in it yet

Of course....including new paint on the heads.

falcongeorge

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #91 on: July 08, 2019, 10:42:20 AM »
Curious on which of these 5 would you guys choose ?

COMP Cams Comp Cams F23 294S-12
Oval Track Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshaft
Ford 2000-2300 OHC 4 CYL. 1971-1991
Lift: .503"/.503"
Duration: 300°/300°
Lobe Separation Angle: 112°
RPM Range: 3500-7400   
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$200.99
ESTIMATED SHIP DATE: 03/19/18
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COMP Cams 11-219-4
Part Number: 249-11-219-4
COMP Cams Comp Cams Magnum Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshafts
Magnum 294S Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshaft
Lift: .595''/.595"
Duration: 294°/294°
Lobe Separation Angle: 110°
RPM Range: 2500-6500

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$138.99
ESTIMATED SHIP DATE: 03/19/18
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COMP Cams 33-246-4
Part Number: 249-33-246-4
COMP Cams Comp Cams Magnum Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshafts
Magnum 294S Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshaft
Lift: .605"/.605"
Duration: 294°/294°
Lobe Separation Angle: 110°
RPM Range: 2500-6500   
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$154.99
ESTIMATED SHIP DATE: 03/28/18
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COMP Cams 12-224-4
Part Number: 249-12-224-4
COMP Cams Comp Cams Magnum Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshafts
Magnum 294S Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshaft
Lift: .525''/.525"
Duration: 294°/294°
Lobe Separation Angle: 110°
RPM Range: 2500-6500

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$147.99
ESTIMATED SHIP DATE: 03/12/18
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     (1)

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COMP Cams 20-248-4
Part Number: 249-20-248-4
COMP Cams Comp Cams Magnum Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshafts
Magnum 294S Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshaft
Lift: .525"/.525"
Duration: 294°/294°
Lobe Separation Angle: 110°
RPM Range: 3000-6500   
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$153.99
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whenever I see something like this (and I see it ALL the time), I think of Alan Freed, he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, if he had been writing for the car mags in the 1990's. he woulda been fine. If you want a snotty idle, close the LSA up.

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #92 on: July 08, 2019, 06:01:46 PM »
I don't know you mean by, "whenever I see something like this (and I see it ALL the time)'' ?

LSA of like 108 ?

falcongeorge

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #93 on: July 09, 2019, 08:23:24 PM »
I don't know you mean by, "whenever I see something like this (and I see it ALL the time)'' ?

LSA of like 108 ?
yup.

DuckRyder

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #94 on: July 10, 2019, 06:34:29 AM »
I don't know you mean by, "whenever I see something like this (and I see it ALL the time)'' ?

LSA of like 108 ?

All those cams appear to be 294S for different engines IIRC Comp for an FE start with “33”.

Wasn’t Alan Freed a guy that was caught up in a big scandal about taking kickbacks for playing certain stuff on the radio?...
Robert

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #95 on: July 10, 2019, 06:38:46 AM »
I don't know you mean by, "whenever I see something like this (and I see it ALL the time)'' ?

LSA of like 108 ?

You likely won't be happy with a a cam with any duration and a 108 LSA with fuel injection.  Certainly can be done, but will take some tuning and tricks to behave nicely
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

falcongeorge

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #96 on: July 10, 2019, 08:39:28 PM »
I don't know you mean by, "whenever I see something like this (and I see it ALL the time)'' ?

LSA of like 108 ?

You likely won't be happy with a a cam with any duration and a 108 LSA with fuel injection.  Certainly can be done, but will take some tuning and tricks to behave nicely
ANY cam that is going to "sound and feel nasty", per his request in the first post, is incompatible with his FI setup as it presently stands. But hey you are right, I broke my personal rule about posting ANYTHING on ANY camshaft thread on the internet, so Im getting what I deserve. :-X ::)

Joe-JDC

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #97 on: July 10, 2019, 09:32:37 PM »
I guess I am coming to this post late, but I was one of the very first to convert a Ford to EFI back in 1987.  I actually worked with Crane to custom make some roller hydraulic camshafts for EFI use, and bought three of the first seven they ground.  After several years of building and modifying EFI engines, it became apparent that the lift, duration, was not a real factor as long as the lobe separation was wide for a decent idle and ability to get the rpm down to a streetable level and keep the engine from stalling with power brakes.  Pick whatever characteristics you want, but keep the LSA at 112* or above, and it should work well.  They will work with less, but with AC, Power Brakes, and/or PS, milder will be your friend in the long run.  JME, Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #98 on: July 11, 2019, 06:26:13 AM »
I guess I am coming to this post late, but I was one of the very first to convert a Ford to EFI back in 1987.  I actually worked with Crane to custom make some roller hydraulic camshafts for EFI use, and bought three of the first seven they ground.  After several years of building and modifying EFI engines, it became apparent that the lift, duration, was not a real factor as long as the lobe separation was wide for a decent idle and ability to get the rpm down to a streetable level and keep the engine from stalling with power brakes.  Pick whatever characteristics you want, but keep the LSA at 112* or above, and it should work well.  They will work with less, but with AC, Power Brakes, and/or PS, milder will be your friend in the long run.  JME, Joe-JDC

Yep, it's all about overlap and keeping the cylinder fill clean.  Many modern engines go with numbers we never even think of, but it takes a good head.  Check this chart out

---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

falcongeorge

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #99 on: July 11, 2019, 09:37:02 AM »
delete. I promised myself I wasn't getting involved in these conversations anymore.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 09:39:54 AM by falcongeorge »

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #100 on: July 11, 2019, 08:00:58 PM »
I guess I am coming to this post late, but I was one of the very first to convert a Ford to EFI back in 1987.  I actually worked with Crane to custom make some roller hydraulic camshafts for EFI use, and bought three of the first seven they ground.  After several years of building and modifying EFI engines, it became apparent that the lift, duration, was not a real factor as long as the lobe separation was wide for a decent idle and ability to get the rpm down to a streetable level and keep the engine from stalling with power brakes.  Pick whatever characteristics you want, but keep the LSA at 112* or above, and it should work well.  They will work with less, but with AC, Power Brakes, and/or PS, milder will be your friend in the long run.  JME, Joe-JDC

Interesting.
I have a 427 Cobra, no power anything, like a Cobra should be. I of course don't want stalling  and other street problems, yet I need a radical chopping idle and even power band through the RPM's. Think of the engine as a bad-ass drag engine, but without very high compression on pump gas, or if you're into it, a 360cu dirt sprint car. As radical as I can get on the street. If I wanted to use aviation fuel again like with my Pro Street Camaro from many years ago, I'd do it, but I won't today.

So with your EFI knowledge, and now knowing what I want with my 428FE, what's your thoughts ?

Joe-JDC

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #101 on: July 11, 2019, 08:52:30 PM »
Nearly every time I have helped folks with a camshaft that wanted radical, they wound up coming back and asking for something more street friendly.  Since that has been my experience, I still think you would have a strong engine with something in the 230-236* duration and whatever lift your springs can handle, with a 114* LSA.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #102 on: July 11, 2019, 09:16:52 PM »
The duration is pretty low, is that because of the EFI  ?
I'll get new springs, push rods etc. with the cam selection.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 09:21:30 PM by 427HISS »

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #103 on: July 30, 2019, 02:46:12 PM »
Ok, from you guys that know your EFI engines, with what I have and want/need, whats your opinion with the type of cam and specs ?

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #104 on: July 31, 2019, 01:49:34 PM »
"Think of the engine as a bad-ass drag engine, but without very high compression on pump gas, or if you're into it, a 360cu dirt sprint car."


Almost mutually exclusive from EFI without some very significant tuning ability, including a system that can go in and out of closed loop.  We are back where we started, I don't think anyone misunderstood your desires, they just don't lend themselves to a home tuned EFI system, or a dyno run or two, and certainly not a self-tuning system
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #105 on: July 31, 2019, 05:30:00 PM »
Ross, what are you quoting "they just don't lend themselves to a home tuned EFI system, or a dyno run or two, and certainly not a self-tuning system" ?

From home tune, does that mean that very intelligent and non-in business gearhead men don't know about building engines, tuning EFI systems or dyno's ?  I'm I not getting what you mean or are you just being a.....?

Please explain.

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #106 on: July 31, 2019, 05:58:33 PM »
I spoke a little with a guy today that had to leave for a week, but told me to speak with Brent, Barry and others here.
I'm still wanting more power with my Dove 428. I can't afford to buy or build a aftermarket 482 side oiler, unless money comes falling from the sky, so I'll have to use my current motor.

He mentioned getting different stroker crank and pistons to create a 462-433 cu. That's all we had time for.
A few people here and a friend said to keep my wossy cam, get it running then this winter put in the upscale cam and spring kit.
My thought is, it's faster and much easier to do the change out of the engine bay.

So if....a different stroker crank and pistons are changed, what cube, stroke, bore size etc, what will that bring in HP/TQ ?

I don't know much about the Dove aluminum heads, but I let a call to them. I have a bit more info somewhere....I'll look.

Valves-Precision
Compression- 10:7:1
Lash .022 (hot)
I really want to know the flow numbers.

Still thinking of either a hydro roller or mechanical roller. (wonder how much the power difference would be)

I'll paste again the info I know.

428FE and a stack injection system. The cam is the COMP Cams 11-217-4.
I still want my engine to sound and feel nasty, but what are the cam profile's that this injection needs.
I can give you more details, but this is just for basic information about cam's for injection.

Comp Cams Magnum Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshafts
COMP Cams 11-217-4
Part Number: 249-11-217-4

Operating Range:   1800-5800 RPM
Duration Advertised:   270° Intake / 270° Exhaust
Duration @ .050'' Lift:   224° Intake / 224° Exhaust
Valve Lift:   .530'' Intake / .530'' Exhaust
Valve Setting:   .022'' Intake / .022'' Exhaust
Lobe Separation Angle:   110°
Specifications:

Exhaust Valve Lift (in.)0.53Intake Valve Lift (in.)0.530RPM Range1800-5800Exh. Duration @ .050 in. (Deg)224Int. Duration @ .050 in. (Deg)224Exh. Duration Advertised (Deg)270Int. Duration Advertised (Deg)270Engine Make/SizeChevy Big Block (396-454)Lifter TypeMechanical Flat TappetUsageStreet/StripAdvertised Duration270 int./270 exh.Advertised Exhaust Duration270Advertised Intake Duration270Basic Operating RPM Range1,800-5,800Cam StyleMechanical flat tappetComputer-Controlled CompatibleNoDuration at 050 inch Lift224 int./224 exh.Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift224Exhaust Valve Lash (in.)0.022Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio (0.53Grind NumberCB 270S-10Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift224Intake Valve Lash (in.)0.022Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio (i0.53QuantitySold individuallyValve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio0.530 int./0.530 exh.Valve Springs RequiredYesLobe Separation (Deg)110Manufacturer's Part Number:11-217-4
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 06:11:26 PM by 427HISS »

DuckRyder

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #107 on: July 31, 2019, 07:30:59 PM »
Not Ross but I’d just like to say a few things.

1) You’re getting real good advice here.

2) I think a big part of why you aren’t getting more is that there’s not much else to say until some more details are had.

It all has to work together and it is hard to make it work together until you figure out exactly what you’re dealing with, where a cam is concerned even seemingly small changes can drastically affect things like whether it’ll run on pump gas... (DCR)

Most of the things that would make a camshaft fit into the “sound nasty” category take it out of the “EFI" category (particularly what I gather is an older EFI with limited tuning capability).

Even the best laid plans might not work out spot on in spite of ones best efforts when others have to be depended on and possibly out of no ones particular fault... (voice of experience here)

If you are going to change the engine, then you have to do the checking.

All of that said, now you’re talking about changing the rotating assembly, the money that will take to do will pay for a lot of checking, camshaft (*ahem* roller) and maybe even EFI...

I positively see the wisdom in using what you have if it is all together and running...

Lastly as a couple have alluded to - we all would love to have a car that sounds like a funny car until we have to live with a funny car....
Robert

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #108 on: July 31, 2019, 08:29:04 PM »
Ross, what are you quoting "they just don't lend themselves to a home tuned EFI system, or a dyno run or two, and certainly not a self-tuning system" ?

From home tune, does that mean that very intelligent and non-in business gearhead men don't know about building engines, tuning EFI systems or dyno's ?  I'm I not getting what you mean or are you just being a.....?

Please explain.

Kevin, I am telling you that you can't have your cake and eat it too.  If you found a very sharp EFI tuner, and there are some, but not a lot, he could, with the right system have you in open loop at idle, then some closed loop at part throttle, then back to open loop.  Or he could tune using fuel tables and force the system to command what the engine wants

However, narrow the LSA, drop the compression then try to make it act nicely, each of those things fight each other.  10 runs on a dyno at WOT won't get it right, nor will a self learning system, you need to be able to study logs and see what the engine needs and know the components aren't forcing incorrect numbers. 

I am not being an a$$, I am telling you that you went right back to the beginning of the conversation and building a street EFI system either takes building the engine to match the EFI (like Joe told you, low overlap from wide LSA and reasonable duration), or having time and money to tune the engine to a variety of environments (very purposeful tuning by someone who knows what they are seeing and a system that gives them control)

Let me tell you, that is why the big tuners make big bucks, an engine is a system, and nobody can say "what cam do I use" without the entire system planned and a knowledgeable tuner working it

I am the last guy to say guys can't build at home, hell I am an USAF Colonel by day.  However, I have 33 years of EFI, diesel and you name it work, factory and otherwise, and I am trying to explain that people have come in to me and all the other builders with what they "want" and often we have to talk them out of it, or at least revise it, and they end up happier.  That's what I am trying to say respectfully, but feel now that I have to say it bluntly.  That's why you aren't getting the answers you want, they aren't there
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #109 on: July 31, 2019, 09:48:30 PM »
First let me say, thank you for your service Colonel !   8)

Ok, I'll stop wanting the best of all worlds and go with I have, except for the larger cam. Once I find out the head specs, I'll let you know. I'll stop researching in ways of making the best power and asking about the same questions on other websites to get different views, like..."did you not like the answers you received on the other forum"?

Years ago, people used to like bench racing, like using the same block, but using different bores, strokes, Pistons, intakes, heads with the many different combinations, fuel delivery's, to electronics etc. It used to be fun, even if you weren't going to build a engine at all. I'm not wanting to be jerk by having several pages, changing/adding my options, asking many questions,
etc..

I'll slow done and get back you all after I know everything about the heads.

No disrespect....and hanks to you all,
Kevin

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #110 on: August 01, 2019, 10:37:07 AM »
First let me say, thank you for your service Colonel !   8)

Ok, I'll stop wanting the best of all worlds and go with I have, except for the larger cam. Once I find out the head specs, I'll let you know. I'll stop researching in ways of making the best power and asking about the same questions on other websites to get different views, like..."did you not like the answers you received on the other forum"?

Years ago, people used to like bench racing, like using the same block, but using different bores, strokes, Pistons, intakes, heads with the many different combinations, fuel delivery's, to electronics etc. It used to be fun, even if you weren't going to build a engine at all. I'm not wanting to be jerk by having several pages, changing/adding my options, asking many questions,
etc..

I'll slow done and get back you all after I know everything about the heads.

No disrespect....and hanks to you all,
Kevin

Kevin, here is the best bet

1 - Figure out actual compression, quench, and port flow as set up in your motor
2 - Report back on gearing and intended USE of the car, not sound unless that IS the primary goal at the cost of performance.  More drag racing, more cruising, idling into a show, whatever is the most common use.  Can't be all of them "jack of all trades, master of none...."
3 - Then you pick a cam, note it should not be a narrow LSA lumpity cam.  Doesn't mean it will be a baby, but your intake manifold will not want too radical without a big plenum to buffer pulses and Cobra headers typically are horrible, combined with the EFI, it's important to keep the cam conservative and likely wide-ish LSA for minimal overlap.

In the end, bench racing, chair flying, all good, but prior to this exchange you have been asking opinions, but trying to shape a response for a mismatched combo based on what you'd like to see/hear.   You have much room to grow over a 270 Comp, but it's not going to be happy as a short track engine either
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #111 on: July 05, 2020, 06:28:04 PM »
I believe that this cam will work out well. David Dove recommends it.



62Falcon390

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #112 on: July 06, 2020, 05:53:42 AM »
i have a solid flat cam in my 390, and i use the fast ez efi kit on my modified tunnel ram in a 3380 pound  4 speed falcon.. i want to go abit more radical but i love the sound this cam makes

Intake lobe: Compcams 270XTQ
Exhaust lobe: Compcams TL276
270/276 degrees @ 0.020"
240/246 degrees @ 0.050"
108 degree lobe separation angle
Gross lift .598"/.608" with 1.76 rockers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jGxka4DcB8

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #113 on: July 06, 2020, 09:23:49 AM »
I'm going to use the fast ez that came with the efi and see how I like it. I can always step up later. But, it is a older version.

DuckRyder

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #114 on: July 06, 2020, 09:54:55 AM »
427 hiss. That cam seems like exactly what everyone explained you don’t want ...
Robert

frnkeore

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #115 on: July 06, 2020, 01:28:22 PM »
I've read this whole thread and the thing that has concerned me, is your health issues, should you ever get that engine in your Cobra.

The cam you want, will come on strong, when it gets to it's power band. The adrenaline will peak and your heart may not be able to peak with it. That combined with the diabetic aspect and you passing out, sure doesn't help my concerns.

I'm 75 and a former SCCA Formula Atlantic driver. In SCCA, you have to pass a physical to drive, that includes a EKG and any other health issues. I'm sorry to say this but, you would not pass the criteria for that.

Again, I hate to say it but, think about the risk to the public if you get on it and something happens. If you do install your engine, I would limit any hard acceleration to track conditions, where there are crews to mitigate things.


 
Frank

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #116 on: July 06, 2020, 04:51:54 PM »
I'm going to use the fast ez that came with the efi and see how I like it. I can always step up later. But, it is a older version.

Sounds good.

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #117 on: July 06, 2020, 04:56:24 PM »
427 hiss. That cam seems like exactly what everyone explained you don’t want ...

Why's that ?

blykins

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #118 on: July 06, 2020, 05:29:54 PM »
I'm going to use the fast ez that came with the efi and see how I like it. I can always step up later. But, it is a older version.

Sounds good.

Do you know that you just quoted yourself and replied to yourself?   That's some deep stuff right there. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
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427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #119 on: July 06, 2020, 07:24:11 PM »
Lol, no. I meant to 62Falcon390 saying the video of his engine running sounded good.

62Falcon390

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #120 on: July 06, 2020, 07:56:12 PM »
mine is the first gen fast as well,, and its just a standard bore 390,, would be abit calmer in a bigger engine.. i plan on stepping up cam next year once the cars straightened out better

allrightmike

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #121 on: July 08, 2020, 09:48:42 AM »
   How much does the displacement of an engine affect it's tolerance for a given set of cam timing specs? Specifically lobe separation and it's effect on intake manifold vacuum as it pertains to EFI.

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #122 on: February 12, 2021, 07:01:11 PM »
Wow, I finally made a decision on my valvetrain. I spoke with Scott of Cam Research, who won me over. I found out they make their own lifters (don't know about cams) out of tool steel and are Pressurized, which works great on the street, same as a few other top company's mechanical's lifters. I hope,...I made the right decision, as I've never heard of them until I built my 427 Cobra.

I will order on Monday.,The cam, lifters, rods, spring kit etc. all from Cam Research. All they do is Fords. The lifters are Pressurized  and ''tool steel''. The cam specs are real close to what David Dove suggested, just a little less on the exhaust. He said it'll be the ''perfect cam''. Intake-244, Exhaust-248. LSA-112. Lift-640.  Cost $1,610. Check out their website. I can't wait to get started after getting the parts !

http://www.camresearchcorp.com/shop/uncategorized/lifters-roller/?fbclid=IwAR1dLa6v1HYNK-MvHms-BlCkcg98MaOIwE1efs0YUz2GdzXgfBiKa9biPPE

 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2021, 07:09:47 PM by 427HISS »

TomP

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #123 on: February 12, 2021, 07:19:05 PM »
It should still be pretty mild so driveabilty and gas mileage should be fine.
 When i first put my 454" 427 together i had stock Cobra Jet heads and dial quad Medium Riser intake, i had a Crane solid that was 248 at .050 and .587 lift. It felt like the power curve started at idle speed. Still would go to 6500rpm.

I still have the cam, at one point i thought of sticking it in the Meteor wagon's 332 which i'd imagine would make it behave like a 125cc two stroke dirt bike and probably change the power range to 4000-9000

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #124 on: February 18, 2021, 09:41:13 PM »
I hope it's not mild !  That's exactly what I don't,...want.

So what's past mild into, wow ?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2021, 10:26:46 PM by 427HISS »

62Falcon390

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #125 on: February 19, 2021, 06:53:17 AM »
if you have the gen1 Faste efi kit,, Fast offers an upgrade to the XFI Street for 249US.. call them, let them know you want to upgrade to the xfi street, you send in your eu and handheld and they send the xfi street ecu, cables,screen.. all directly plugs into the gen1 harness.. its programmable, check it out..

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #126 on: February 19, 2021, 06:45:05 PM »
I'll try with your information, but when I called them a couple of years ago, they said to upgrade mine, would cost as much as a new one.

62Falcon390

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #127 on: February 20, 2021, 07:49:56 AM »
contact matt maxwell, i can send his email to you

Rick

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #128 on: February 20, 2021, 12:10:51 PM »
Sounds great. Thanks.

My427stang

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #129 on: February 22, 2021, 12:27:30 PM »
Earlier in this thread I was trying to help and you half-heartedly asked if I was being an a$$.  I decided I was going to butt out after that. However, I don't want to see someone wreck an engine on first start up.

Depending on cam timing, lift, and valve size, a Speedpro piston may not take much lift at all, and especially unlikely to handle over .600.  You never know, tolerances stack, sometimes in our benefit, but left and right banks are slightly different with those pistons installed and they are absolutely not designed for that big cam market

Be prepared to check with clay and be prepared to swallow that you may have to cut the valve reliefs, great budget pistons, but they aren't designed for big valves and big cams
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

427HISS

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Re: Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?
« Reply #130 on: February 22, 2021, 06:45:30 PM »
I don't think you're as ass Ross. Forgive if I did so. I'm open to of your knowledge, advise and opinions.