Picking Cam For Electric Fuel Injection ?

[427HISS]

I have a 428FE and a stack injection system. The cam is the COMP Cams 11-217-4.
I still want my engine to sound and feel nasty, but what are the cam profile's that this injection needs.
I can give you more details, but this is just for basic information about cam's for injection.

Comp Cams Magnum Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshafts
COMP Cams 11-217-4
Part Number: 249-11-217-4

Operating Range:   1800-5800 RPM
Duration Advertised:   270° Intake / 270° Exhaust
Duration @ .050'' Lift:   224° Intake / 224° Exhaust
Valve Lift:   .530'' Intake / .530'' Exhaust
Valve Setting:   .022'' Intake / .022'' Exhaust
Lobe Separation Angle:   110°
Specifications:

Exhaust Valve Lift (in.)0.53Intake Valve Lift (in.)0.530RPM Range1800-5800Exh. Duration @ .050 in. (Deg)224Int. Duration @ .050 in. (Deg)224Exh. Duration Advertised (Deg)270Int. Duration Advertised (Deg)270Engine Make/SizeChevy Big Block (396-454)Lifter TypeMechanical Flat TappetUsageStreet/StripAdvertised Duration270 int./270 exh.Advertised Exhaust Duration270Advertised Intake Duration270Basic Operating RPM Range1,800-5,800Cam StyleMechanical flat tappetComputer-Controlled CompatibleNoDuration at 050 inch Lift224 int./224 exh.Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift224Exhaust Valve Lash (in.)0.022Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio (0.53Grind NumberCB 270S-10Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift224Intake Valve Lash (in.)0.022Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio (i0.53QuantitySold individuallyValve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio0.530 int./0.530 exh.Valve Springs RequiredYesLobe Separation (Deg)110Manufacturer's Part Number:11-217-4

[chilly460]

That cam, in a 428, will be extremely mild.   In broad strokes, fuel injection likes more manifold vacuum so FI cams are generally ground with a wider LSA to decrease overlap. 

It's said many times on here but really is crucial for a FI application, but makes sense to get a custom cam ground.  Basically any catalog cam for an FE is not going to be ground with FI in mind, and you wanting a somewhat aggressive sound is going to lean it towards a tighter LSA in the catalog cams. 

[My427stang]

Overall

- Fuel injection is only fussy on cam choice if the system, or owner, cannot do advanced tuning.  If so, Chilly is 100% right. 
- That cam is TINY, and less than I would recommend for a 390 truck, so shoot higher, but also realize you need to take compression into account
- There are plenty of cams that will work great off the shelf, but it is far easier to just grind one rather than 50 million google searches and trying to find one

What we need
- All specs on vehicle and owner, gears, compression, intake tire size, EFI controller and system, willingness to tune, etc

FWIW, my 489 runs a 242/248 @ .050, .600 lift, 288/294 adv, lashed at .014 instead of .028 specs, 110 LSA on 106.  Happy as a clam with EFI, A/C and PS acts like a new car,  but requires some tuning.  You could go at least that big in a Cobra. 

[jayb]

I agree with the other guys, that cam is not going to sound nasty (if that's what you want), you will need more duration to get there.  If I recall correctly you are going with a self-learning EFI system, so you can't go too big due to vacuum considerations, but at least 10-12 more degrees of duration shouldn't be a problem. 

[Machspeed]

What is the compression ratio of your 428? This will also limit how much duration your cam can have. I agree with the opinions above, a custom ground cam is the way to go with your project. It may cost a little more but well worth it. Remember all of the parts have to work together. I have seen guys put big cams( high duration) in stock low compression engines for the rough idle sound. They sound cool sitting still but the performance is horrible.   

[427HISS]

My Cobra weighs about 2,600 lbs. (Stout frame & thick heavy fiberglass body)
For 9" with I beleive,...331 gears.
Tremec TKO 5 speed O/D .82
15" wheels, 12" rear width,

I just bought the complete 428FE from Mr. Dove. No carbs.

I beleive it's 10:5:1 with aluminum heads.

428 Ford F.E. + .030 Internally balanced

Speed Pro forged Pistons

Sealed Power File Fit Moly Rings

Eagle H-Beam Connecting Rods

Melling High Pressure/High Volume Oil Pump

Dove Heavy Duty Oil Pump Drive

Dove C.J. Aluminum Heads

Stainless Steel Valves

Heavy Duty Retainers & Locks

Dove Rocker Arm Assembly w/ Heavy Duty Shafts

Dove Tunnel Wedge Intake

Cobra Mustang Low Profile Oil Pan

Dove Aluminum Water Pump.

I have a great friend professional shop owner, has two in house chassis dyno's, super tuner of any engine, racer of 360/410 sprint car, hobby stock and twin turbo 1,200 hp 08' vette. He's never built a FE   

I need,....my Cobra to be angry & nasty, like a Cobra should be. Not some purring little kitten, no radio, 18" Hot Rod wheels, automatic tranny, quiet exhaust or high back Lexes comphy seats. To each it's own, but that's not for me.

This 2nd engine build was going to be on the low end of cost, ss my builder stole 10k in parts & money 10 years ago. He has sent me back some of my great quality parts and money paid back, so I have more money, but not 10k.
E
I'd love to go a mechanical roller but, I'm concerend about cost and the lifters failing on the street ?
I do have the roller rockets, so that brings down the cost. I assume,....their 1:76 ?

Anyway, I love the nasty sound and feel of race engines, both radical idle and going up in RPM's, so I need to step-up this motor, but not overboard.

[427HISS]

Oh, forgot.

I have a older FAST set-up. 53lb. injectors, pump etc. Everything but fuel lines.
I can use it as is, order a up grade or my buddy is a dealer of a top end stand alone computer system. Can't recall whom right now.
His cost is $900.

[andyf]

Oh, forgot.

I have a older FAST set-up. 53lb. injectors, pump etc. Everything but fuel lines.
I can use it as is, order a up grade or my buddy is a dealer of a top end stand alone computer system. Can't recall whom right now.
His cost is $900.

Get your FAST stuff together then call Rich at FAST Man EFI and tell him what you have and what you are trying to do. He can steer you down the correct path and get you the parts you need.

Shouldn't be any problem to buy a cam that has a little bit of rumble at idle but works fine with the FAST system. The EFI setups are pretty good at dealing with performance cams. If the cam is too big you can just kick the EFI out of closed loop at idle and run it off of the fuel table.

[Barry_R]

If the older FAST setup allows fuel map tuning you are fine going with as big of a cam as you desire.  You can control the fuel map and the limits for O2 based correction.  If you have one of those EZ-EFI systems that are self learning only you will need to be more careful.  I have had a couple of IR setups around 600HP that did not "play well" with the self learning system only - both ended up needing to upgrade to the user tunable setup.

The self learning only systems are entirely reliant upon O2 data to feedback to the computer.  But an O2 sensor is interpreting mixture by reading oxygen.  A rich misfire can cause excess oxygen in the exhaust, and the system mistakenly adds yet more fuel until its drowning the engine.  The more sophisticated EFI systems allow you to manually tune the package into a reasonable state, and from there you can limit the degree of rich/lean correction based on O2 - - preventing a misfire from taking the tune "off the reservation"....

[cammerfe]

Overall

- Fuel injection is only fussy on cam choice if the system, or owner, cannot do advanced tuning.  If so, Chilly is 100% right. 
- That cam is TINY, and less than I would recommend for a 390 truck, so shoot higher, but also realize you need to take compression into account
- There are plenty of cams that will work great off the shelf, but it is far easier to just grind one rather than 50 million google searches and trying to find one

What we need
- All specs on vehicle and owner, gears, compression, intake tire size, EFI controller and system, willingness to tune, etc

FWIW, my 489 runs a 242/248 @ .050, .600 lift, 288/294 adv, lashed at .014 instead of .028 specs, 110 LSA on 106.  Happy as a clam with EFI, A/C and PS acts like a new car,  but requires some tuning.  You could go at least that big in a Cobra.

Some years ago, I did a 390 with which I intended to use Holley EFI. Comp made me a solid roller with very close to the specs noted above. It had a bit more lift, with .658-.666 but was otherwise identical. Sounded really nasty, particularly because I intended it for my '63 Effie ICB. I asked Comp for the "...street manners I had in my '64 427, Idle about 850..." They did a superb job with their analysis. I gave them complete engine specs, including the flow figures we found in the Dove D5 heads after a complete go-through by Wayne Kuchtyn. We flowed both the heads and Dove 'Spider' manifold at Livernois Motorsports on their automated Superflow.

KS

[My427stang]

When you get some info on the controller, let us know, I'd be putting you closer to a 292/248 ish @.050 duration cam, somewhere around .600 lift, likely early-ish ICL and a 110 LSA assuming you can control the EFI, and likely could go bigger depending on the use of the car and the controller

It's going to be hard NOT to have a fast car with a Cobra, but take some time and think about the end use.  A Cobra likely is easier to drive with more cam to kill a little power down low, but too much and cruising back and forth isn't as fun. 

With a 5 speed on the street, you sort of build for 1st and 5th gear and the others fall into place.  Your 2.71 final drive in 5th won't want a lot of cam, but if done right, will do fine. 1st gear is 9.49, also fine with a light Cobra, but don't want to go overboard with cam as it's on the tall side of a starting line ratio

Bottom line: Pushing you for much more cam than you started with, but I wouldn't go to the extremes unless it's primarily race.

It may be sacrilege, but if you could accept a real exhaust and not sidepipes, it'd be even stronger.  I think Brent has seen 50+ hp loss with Cobra sidepipes, significant difference 

[427HISS]

I'll take a look at which controller I have and call Rich at FAST.

The first 428FE I had was 400 rwhp, and was disappointed with both TQ andHP, even in my Cobra.
Back in 1977 I built my first car, a Pro-Street (anyone remember those days) 

With a 468 Ratt, Mincie rock crusher, Corvette dual disk clutch, billet fly, narrowed Ford 9" with 514 gearing. Used 114 A.V fuel.
That car was very quick and would launch @ 4,000 rpm with the tires off the ground. I've been around dirt winged sprint cars all my
life, and those 360 or 410 engines rock my heart. Other than Top Fuel, sprints always win. With no weight hanging off the crank and no transmission,
the ramp up & down at idle, reving to 8,500 (+) RPM extremely fast is amazing.

Anyway, I and my best friend Chad that I mentioned above, like mechanical rollers, but I'm concerned about the lifters coming apart on the street and cost versus a solid flat or even a hydro roller, with longer lifetime. Chad is an amazing guy, builder, tuner etc, but he and I don't know what FE's need and don't need.

We built highly polished 304 stainless steel side pipes for Cobras, Vetts, Hot Rods etc.The option I built for my car, has the 4"open muffler, no packing, which you can roll a base ball through. lol....It's really not that loud, just great soothing music, to us gearheads anyway. 

With this motor I have, what would you do for the type of cam and specs ?
I'd rather spend some more money now to be really happy, and before installing it into the car.

[My427stang]

I think as a reference point, I'd start with something like a 294S from Comp and put in on 104.  If you want more chop, consider a custom with a little more exhaust lobe.   Keep the cam timing early though, not because you want the torque, but because you want to minimize reversion.

Don't be afraid of hydraulic either, a similar cam with a set of stock rockers, good push rods, and the correct spring and retainer package will do all you need maintenance free.  (Although I never have to adjust my solids either, it's pretty nice with a stock setup)

As far as that EFI controller, I do not think you'll be happy with it.  It's a very basic self-learner and if you have a buddy who can tune, it'll run real nice.

I wouldn't go a lot more cam than that though

[427HISS]

Curious on which of these 5 would you guys choose ?

COMP Cams Comp Cams F23 294S-12
Oval Track Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshaft
Ford 2000-2300 OHC 4 CYL. 1971-1991
Lift: .503"/.503"
Duration: 300°/300°
Lobe Separation Angle: 112°
RPM Range: 3500-7400   
View Details
$200.99
ESTIMATED SHIP DATE: 03/19/18
 FREE SHIPPING
 LOWEST PRICE GUARANTEE

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COMP Cams 11-219-4
Part Number: 249-11-219-4
COMP Cams Comp Cams Magnum Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshafts
Magnum 294S Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshaft
Lift: .595''/.595"
Duration: 294°/294°
Lobe Separation Angle: 110°
RPM Range: 2500-6500

View Details
$138.99
ESTIMATED SHIP DATE: 03/19/18
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 LOWEST PRICE GUARANTEE

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COMP Cams 33-246-4
Part Number: 249-33-246-4
COMP Cams Comp Cams Magnum Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshafts
Magnum 294S Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshaft
Lift: .605"/.605"
Duration: 294°/294°
Lobe Separation Angle: 110°
RPM Range: 2500-6500   
View Details
$154.99
ESTIMATED SHIP DATE: 03/28/18
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COMP Cams 12-224-4
Part Number: 249-12-224-4
COMP Cams Comp Cams Magnum Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshafts
Magnum 294S Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshaft
Lift: .525''/.525"
Duration: 294°/294°
Lobe Separation Angle: 110°
RPM Range: 2500-6500

View Details
$147.99
ESTIMATED SHIP DATE: 03/12/18
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     (1)

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COMP Cams 20-248-4
Part Number: 249-20-248-4
COMP Cams Comp Cams Magnum Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshafts
Magnum 294S Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshaft
Lift: .525"/.525"
Duration: 294°/294°
Lobe Separation Angle: 110°
RPM Range: 3000-6500   
View Details
$153.99
ESTIMATED SHIP DATE: 03/19/18
 FREE SHIPPING
 LOWEST PRICE GUARANTEE

[427HISS]

If the older FAST setup allows fuel map tuning you are fine going with as big of a cam as you desire.  You can control the fuel map and the limits for O2 based correction.  If you have one of those EZ-EFI systems that are self learning only you will need to be more careful.  I have had a couple of IR setups around 600HP that did not "play well" with the self learning system only - both ended up needing to upgrade to the user tunable setup.

The self learning only systems are entirely reliant upon O2 data to feedback to the computer.  But an O2 sensor is interpreting mixture by reading oxygen.  A rich misfire can cause excess oxygen in the exhaust, and the system mistakenly adds yet more fuel until its drowning the engine.  The more sophisticated EFI systems allow you to manually tune the package into a reasonable state, and from there you can limit the degree of rich/lean correction based on O2 - - preventing a misfire from taking the tune "off the reservation"....

Just spoke with FAST, mine does not have MAP tuning. This one was made from 2006 to 2009.
So, I may drop $900 for my friends stand alone system that be is a dealer for.
I'll get the brand name and which system from him soon.

I think, this is the model # is what we need.

MS3Pro-

https://www.ampefi.com/product/ms3pro-evo-standalone-engine-management-system/