Update on the FE Power Cylinder Head Testing

[jayb]

Thanks Mike, but my guess is that those would be much more expensive than the ones I'm doing.  Also, most of these companies aren't interested in doing small production runs of custom parts, not enough money in it for them.  Reminds me of the time that Barry R and I tried to get Cloyes to do the adjustable timing set; they waffled for a year and finally said no, and that was a production run of 100 sets.  I guess it takes somebody crazy like me to do this kind of stuff LOL!

[JERICOGTX]

Maybe they could make you a batch and save you all the effort?

You have obviously never met Jay??? LOL.

[mbrunson427]

I'm just still not sold that the cast ones you are making are the answer. For comparable products, such as the Manton pieces, they are using billet tool steel. I do agree with Henry Ford, "chop your own wood and it'll warm you twice", but I'd hate to see you keep running up against a wall.

[jayb]

Well, I guess I'll find out; that's what the testing and very high spring pressures are for.  For what it's worth, if I could make them, or have them made, out of billet steel, at any reasonable price, I'd do so...

[machoneman]

Reid Machine does make 426 Hemi (nitro applications) from billet steel. Maybe a call to them?

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/cam-valvetrain/turning-hemi-rocker-arms-into-works-of-art-at-reid-machine/

Well, I guess I'll find out; that's what the testing and very high spring pressures are for.  For what it's worth, if I could make them, or have them made, out of billet steel, at any reasonable price, I'd do so...

[WConley]

Billet tool steel sure is sexy, but you guys may be surprised just how well a quality cast steel part can work.

This ain't grandpa's gray iron!

[jayb]

Reid Machine does make 426 Hemi (nitro applications) from billet steel. Maybe a call to them?

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/cam-valvetrain/turning-hemi-rocker-arms-into-works-of-art-at-reid-machine/

I think you guys don't understand my objectives on this whole project.  I'm trying to make an economical top end package, and the billet steel rockers just don't fit.  To give an example, I looked at Reid Machine's web site.  The cheapest set of billet steel rockers they sell go for about $3200 for the set of 16, and that's just the rockers, no shafts or stands.  Most are more, one complete set goes for $5500.  I'm trying to deliver heads, the intake adapter, and the complete rocker setup for around $6000.  No way I can hold that price with a billet steel rocker setup.

If all I wanted to do was build the highest end parts for an FE, with no regard to price, I'd go with a billet steel rocker.  But that's not my objective; I'm trying to put together a package that is reasonably priced, and will still make tons of power right out of the box.  Billet steel rockers are not going to make that program.

Iskenderian used to make a cast iron rocker for the FE.  They are currently sought after by a lot of the stock eliminator racers; those rockers were practically indestructible.  I'm betting that the 4140 steel rockers that I'm working on now are going to be nearly indestructible also.  If not, I'll find the weak spots and make the changes required to get them there.  As Bill mentioned, there isn't any reason a cast 4140 rocker won't work.

Anyway, finally got the first intake rocker fully machined, here's a couple pictures showing the angled adjuster:

[cjshaker]

Maybe it's just me, but 'around' $6k for the complete package seems like an incredible deal, especially given the power potential with minimal work. As long as the center 'drum' of the rocker is thick enough to hold up to the twisting forces, I can't see why they wouldn't work, and work quite well. Are there any concerns about side loading with the angled pushrod, or side wear?

I remember lengthy discussions on the old forum about how "cast steel" was not a thing. Arguments made by a self proclaimed expert who shall remain nameless (but if the Shoe fits  ).

[jayb]

There are certainly concerns about side loading, but I think I've got that covered with the thrust bearings that go between the rocker pairs and also between the exhaust rocker and the stand.  Didn't see any issue on the dyno first time around, so hopefully it's a non-issue.

I think Shoe was talking about crankshafts, and the "cast steel" material claimed by Scat that was really just cast nodular iron; apparently a marketing ploy.  According to the foundry where I get the rocker castings, steel is cast all the time, including the 4140 steel that these rockers are made from, and also various grades of stainless steel.  The 4140 cast steel is about double the strength of normal cast grey iron that engine blocks are cast from.

[cammerfe]

To put in a bit of support for Jay's comment (using a degree in Chemistry and a couple of years as a metallurgical process engineer at FoMoCo), melt steel and put it into a mold and the object that comes out of the mold is cast steel. The main difference between iron---an element, and steel---a mixture---is that steel has carbon in it. It also has a bunch of other elements in it, most likely, as well, but the difference between the two is the presence of carbon, and the amount of carbon that's mixed in.

KS

[plovett]

To put in a bit of support for Jay's comment (using a degree in Chemistry and a couple of years as a metallurgical process engineer at FoMoCo), melt steel and put it into a mold and the object that comes out of the mold is cast steel. The main difference between iron---an element, and steel---a mixture---is that steel has carbon in it. It also has a bunch of other elements in it, most likely, as well, but the difference between the two is the presence of carbon, and the amount of carbon that's mixed in.

KS

I agree with that.  I think the term steel has commonly been associated with the forging process because steel has commonly been forged. 

If you scramble one egg and boil the other, they are both still eggs.  Lots of different kinds of steel, though.

JMO,

pl

[wowens]

4140 is a "chromoly" alloy, properly cast it should be very fatigue resistant

[blykins]

To put in a bit of support for Jay's comment (using a degree in Chemistry and a couple of years as a metallurgical process engineer at FoMoCo), melt steel and put it into a mold and the object that comes out of the mold is cast steel. The main difference between iron---an element, and steel---a mixture---is that steel has carbon in it. It also has a bunch of other elements in it, most likely, as well, but the difference between the two is the presence of carbon, and the amount of carbon that's mixed in.

KS

That is correct. 

A 4140 steel has ~.4% carbon.  A 4130 steel has ~.3% carbon, etc. 

You can also have hypereutectic steel, which is a much higher carbon composition.   (Hypereutectic pistons contain a lot more silicon in the aluminum than normal.)

[Gaugster]

Glad to read up on the progress. One request....please don't use Unobtainium. Thank you Jay and supporting Staff!!!

[Cyclone03]

Not to highjack ,what is the alloy know as tool steel? How much carbon is in it? Would it be too brittle to use as a rocker?
At what point,alloy wise ,could you run the rockers without bushings? Or would that call for a lot more oil and oil control upstairs?