Author Topic: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake  (Read 96238 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

AlanCasida

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1099
    • View Profile
Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #255 on: April 28, 2018, 08:35:24 AM »
Any updates on these heads as of late?  I have a set bolted to my Survival built 445 short block that will hopefully be going on the dyno in the next couple weeks.  Waiting on the machine shop to mill my intake. These shops can’t ever seem to get you your parts quick enough.
You are the second person I have read about that has had to have their intake milled or use very thin intake gaskets to get their intake to fit properly. I wonder if this is a common theme with these heads. I have a set that I haven't bolted on yet. I will probably try a couple of different intakes but I don't want to have them milled to fit the heads. I guess time will tell.


Alan, it's not the heads.  It's a fairly common theme to have to cut the intake with any heads or setup.  I have to cut the flanges on about 75% of the FE's I build.

OK, Thanks Brent.

winr1

  • Guest
Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #256 on: April 28, 2018, 12:21:58 PM »
What does this mean ??


" The raised rocker arm position on these heads solves some geometry problems "


Versus other FE heads that is




Ricky.

Machspeed

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 58
    • View Profile
Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #257 on: April 30, 2018, 08:37:38 AM »
I spoke to a Trick Flow rep this weekend at a local show and found out you can get these heads without the CNC porting but they have to be special ordered and will be bare with smaller ports of course.They consider it as a porters head(similar to pro ports). If anyone is interested I will be happy to share the rep's contact information. He said they didn't plan to offer these without porting but he could get it pushed through.   
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 09:16:25 AM by Machspeed »

mbrunson427

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 921
    • View Profile
Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #258 on: April 30, 2018, 09:55:58 AM »
I spoke to a Trick Flow rep this weekend at a local show and found out you can get these heads without the CNC porting but they have to be special ordered and will be bare with smaller ports of course.They consider it as a porters head(similar to pro ports). If anyone is interested I will be happy to share the rep's contact information. He said they didn't plan to offer these without porting but he could get it pushed through.

Looked into this a few months back. The pro-ports look to have water jackets in a preferred location. I wondered if the trick flow head was just a pro-port CNC'd to their specification, but it doesn't look that way. It wasn't a super easy comparison because of course the ports were different from each other (and you always wonder how reliable your sonic tester is being).
Mike Brunson
BrunsonPerformance.com

scott foxwell

  • Guest
Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #259 on: April 30, 2018, 02:20:54 PM »
What does this mean ??


" The raised rocker arm position on these heads solves some geometry problems "


Versus other FE heads that is




Ricky.
Most FE heads, when using a roller tip rocker, need the stands raised about .200" to get the rocker geometry anywhere near right. Or more accurately I should say that any FE head using the factory rocker stand pad height...needs to be raised.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 02:22:27 PM by scott foxwell »

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1915
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #260 on: April 30, 2018, 06:06:07 PM »
Most FE heads, when using a roller tip rocker, need the stands raised about .200" to get the rocker geometry anywhere near right. Or more accurately I should say that any FE head using the factory rocker stand pad height...needs to be raised.

Need to qualify that statement with some valve length/installed height/cam lift bookends...

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4822
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #261 on: April 30, 2018, 06:11:04 PM »
And which rocker arms............
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

scott foxwell

  • Guest
Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #262 on: May 01, 2018, 07:41:14 AM »
Most FE heads, when using a roller tip rocker, need the stands raised about .200" to get the rocker geometry anywhere near right. Or more accurately I should say that any FE head using the factory rocker stand pad height...needs to be raised.

Need to qualify that statement with some valve length/installed height/cam lift bookends...
It wasn't a statement that needs qualifying, it was a general response to a general question.

Posi67

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 296
    • View Profile
Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #263 on: May 01, 2018, 03:36:01 PM »
What does this mean ??


" The raised rocker arm position on these heads solves some geometry problems "


Versus other FE heads that is




Ricky.
Most FE heads, when using a roller tip rocker, need the stands raised about .200" to get the rocker geometry anywhere near right. Or more accurately I should say that any FE head using the factory rocker stand pad height...needs to be raised.


While a valid item to check I think as a "General" response this is a bit misleading. I've run Erson rollers on CJ, Dove and Edelbrock heads without raising anything and don't have geometry issues. Have also run Comp/Dove std and HD Rollers on the same heads with no problem or raised stands. Maybe I got lucky or possibly because my blocks are decked and the heads were all cut at least .030 the aforementioned spacers weren't required. I'm not smart enough to figure that out however do agree with Barry and Brent that more clarification as to components used would be helpful to us home engine builders. JMO   

WerbyFord

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 335
    • View Profile
Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #264 on: May 08, 2018, 10:39:28 PM »
Just got info on the latest build at my local shop.   464ci 428 with TF heads, .630 hyd roller(246 @ 50), 11:1 pump gas with I think a Victor Jr, tri Y headers.  610 hp at 6200, 580 ft/lb at 4500.  Nice streetcar motor.

Compared to:
My 462ci, .63 flat tappet, 12.5:1, tunnel wedge, 625 hp at 6500, 590 ft lb at 4000 rpm with 20 yr old Eds with hand port job that flows 280/220(same as Barry's heads).

Nice to see yet ANOTHER choice for FE aluminum heads!
remember in the old 1969 "Muscle Parts" the hot choice, er, the ONLY choice, was stock 428cj iron.

Based on the build at Larry's local shop, the Gonkulator puts these new TFS heads about +7 Torq and +25 Power better than BBMs. Which is basically a tie given the lack of data and less than a 3% average difference. Both look like excellent heads. Makes me think about buying a set so I can break my 28-spline axles.

scott foxwell

  • Guest
Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #265 on: May 09, 2018, 07:13:37 AM »
What does this mean ??


" The raised rocker arm position on these heads solves some geometry problems "


Versus other FE heads that is




Ricky.
Most FE heads, when using a roller tip rocker, need the stands raised about .200" to get the rocker geometry anywhere near right. Or more accurately I should say that any FE head using the factory rocker stand pad height...needs to be raised.


While a valid item to check I think as a "General" response this is a bit misleading. I've run Erson rollers on CJ, Dove and Edelbrock heads without raising anything and don't have geometry issues. Have also run Comp/Dove std and HD Rollers on the same heads with no problem or raised stands. Maybe I got lucky or possibly because my blocks are decked and the heads were all cut at least .030 the aforementioned spacers weren't required. I'm not smart enough to figure that out however do agree with Barry and Brent that more clarification as to components used would be helpful to us home engine builders. JMO
How do you check your geometry?

Posi67

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 296
    • View Profile
Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #266 on: May 09, 2018, 02:24:14 PM »

How do you check your geometry?

I check for the usual items. The roller tip is well positioned on top of the valve, the pushrod cups don't interfere with the bottom of the rockers and pushrod holes in the intake have enough clearance. I try to avoid anything that involves the use of Math. Keep in mind I'm just a home builder much like the majority here so I leave the technical stuff to those who know what they are doing.

In the past 12 years of racing I've bent a total of 2 pushrods and broken zero rockers. Did lots of other damage but rocker geometry wasn't the issue. Over rev and valve float cause trouble. 



scott foxwell

  • Guest
Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #267 on: May 09, 2018, 03:36:39 PM »

How do you check your geometry?

I check for the usual items. The roller tip is well positioned on top of the valve, the pushrod cups don't interfere with the bottom of the rockers and pushrod holes in the intake have enough clearance. I try to avoid anything that involves the use of Math. Keep in mind I'm just a home builder much like the majority here so I leave the technical stuff to those who know what they are doing.

In the past 12 years of racing I've bent a total of 2 pushrods and broken zero rockers. Did lots of other damage but rocker geometry wasn't the issue. Over rev and valve float cause trouble.
So basically you guess -and I don't mean that insultingly. Geometry is all about math. Rocker geometry is so simple, yet so completely misunderstood and ignored throughout the industry and one the most important things there is when assembling a performance engine. I put it right there with bearing clearances and degreeing your cam. The internet is a great place and has really opened my eyes to how much terrible mis-information there is regarding pushrod length and rocker geometry, even by so called "experts" and "professionals". For decades, Comp Cams put in print, in their catalog, probably the absolute WORST technical information and diagram when it came to measuring for pushrod length but hey, it's Comp Cams, so it has to be right, right? A lie repeated enough times becomes the truth. People invest thousands of $$ in a performance engine, buy a custom cam, custom rockers, custom pushrods, and have NO idea whether or not their rocker geometry is even close. The engine's performance DEPENDS on that geometry being correct in order to get the most accurate information from the cam to the valve, yet it gets passed off as almost trivial. The first and BIGGEST misconception and most repeated lie about rocker geometry is this; proper geometry is when the roller tip sweep pattern is in the center of the valve. That is absolutely wrong and you're almost guaranteed to have improper geometry if you use that as your guideline. Another misconception is that you use pushrod length to establish proper geometry. Pushrod length is a result of proper geometry. Shaft rockers can be set up with the heads on the bench. You don;t even need a pushrod. All you need to know is your net lift @ the valve. Proper geometry is this; when the centerline of the rocker is at 90* to the valve at mid lift. The center line of the rocker being an imaginary line that passes through the center of the rocker pivot, and through the center of the roller tip. When this imaginary line is 90*to the valve stem at mid lift, you have proper "mid lift" geometry. There are those who prefer a slight variation to this but for the most part, this is the industry standard. What this accomplishes is to give the minimum amount of roller sweep over the valve tip. Contrary to popular opinion, it is not being off centered that causes guide side loading and excessive wear, but it is excessive roller sweep on the valve tip that causes premature guide wear. Of course, in a perfect world we would like to have minimum s weep and be perfectly centered on the valve tip but that rarely occurs. Being centered is secondary to proper geometry and having the minimum amount of sweep. I use the center third of the valve tip as my "safe" working range for the sweep pattern. If it's within that range, it's good to go. If outside that range, then we have to do something about it and start looking at options.
My 390, basically all stock as far as deck height, cyl head milling, head gasket thickness and valve length needed .220" spacers to get the geometry right with Sharp roller tip rockers. That's not even close!!!! And yes, when I got the rockers where they should be, I had to clearance them for the pushrod cups. Oh well. That's what you have to do sometimes. I talked to Randy Jr at PRI about this and he seemed receptive to the suggestion of raising the stands. Of course, he's probably got bigger fish to fry so I'm not sure where that landed, but he said he had heard the same thing from several "FE" people.
Here's a diagram to help visualize what I'm talking about afa "mid lift" geometry;



Here's a short video I did for stud mount rockers but the principles apply to shafts as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5is9BsH5OU&feature=youtu.be

Because I work in cylinder head and induction development, rocker geometry is a real pet peeve of mine. There is power to be had or lost with it. There is longevity and reliability to be had or lost with it, and it's about as simple as it gets to do it right. I've had many, many, professional engine builders call me to thank me after watching my video, telling me how much sense it made and how easy it was, and that they had been doing it "wrong" their whole life.
I will edit to add: this all above only applys to roller tip rockers. The factory shoe type rocker has an entirely different geometry and NONE of this works with that type of rocker.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 03:38:58 PM by scott foxwell »

Posi67

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 296
    • View Profile
Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #268 on: May 09, 2018, 06:26:34 PM »
Yes... I guess and so far haven't had any negative experience except for the potential to lose some power. I don't have the luxury of a shop full of equipment, the education to use it, money for experimenting, money to pay someone who does or even proper parenting when I was young. Just a bracket racer who makes due.

I do however appreciate your post and information because I am one of those guys who still lives in the 70's. I'll re-read as well as watch the video and hopefully absorb something. I do have several sets of rockers and some spare heads I can practice on. If and when I do, I'll let you know what I find. Thanks for the input. 

66FAIRLANE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 558
  • Andy
    • View Profile
Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #269 on: May 09, 2018, 10:24:10 PM »
Ted Eaton also has a good explanation on his site.

http://www.eatonbalancing.com/2007/12/10/rocker-arm-geometry/