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FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: thatdarncat on November 01, 2016, 10:24:43 PM

Title: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: thatdarncat on November 01, 2016, 10:24:43 PM
This has been popping up on some of the other FE sites this evening, I figured we might as well have the info here too. Announced at the SEMA show in Vegas, Trick Flow Specialties unveiled a new FE aluminum cylinder head and intake manifold to go with it. Here is a link to the info:

http://www.onallcylinders.com/2016/11/01/trick-flow-specialties-introduces-ford-fe-dhc-small-block-chevy-cylinder-heads-at-sema/
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: thatdarncat on November 01, 2016, 11:02:56 PM
Here's the picture from the above link.

(http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff437/red0wl/Trick%20Flow%20heads.jpg) (http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/red0wl/media/Trick%20Flow%20heads.jpg.html)
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: machoneman on November 01, 2016, 11:10:05 PM
Cool! Flow numbers?
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Joe-JDC on November 02, 2016, 12:09:14 AM
Are they really TFS, or did they CNC those Chinese copies of the Edelbrock heads?  Joe-JDC
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: jayb on November 02, 2016, 08:59:58 AM
Any information on pricing?   Just from the appearance, the intake looks like it may have smaller runners than the Victor, which would be a help in some applications...
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Katz427 on November 02, 2016, 09:24:24 AM
I was told that the 258 number was for exhaust port with pipe. The proof reader did not enter the correct number for the press release. I still don't know what it is on the intake. I guess nobody noticed what was printed. Hey Joe ( jdc) the heads do have "trick-flow" cast in them. I guess that does not say where they were cast. The Steve head (china) is a permanent mold , the TFS heads do not have "that look" fwiw. The chamber is more like a cross between the Survival and the standard Ebrock.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: e philpott on November 02, 2016, 12:44:52 PM
if 258 is for exhaust , then that sounds better than 258 for intake and leaves hope for some good intake numbers
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: jayb on November 02, 2016, 01:02:35 PM
I have just spoken with the FE Power Forum's roving investigative reporter, my former trunk monkey Hemi Joel (aka Captain Stabbin').  He is on his way to the SEMA show and will take pictures and gather detailed information on the Trick Flow heads and intake.  Stay tuned for an update...  ;D ;D
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: chilly460 on November 02, 2016, 01:03:34 PM
258cfm would be hellacious exhaust flow for a "street oriented" FE head.  Just going by some modern FE castings, they're doing well to achieve 72% exhaust to intake flow ratio (using some posted figures for BBMs and Felony)

If it flowed 258cfm, the intake would be flowing in the 360cfm using the 72% ratio as "rule of thumb".  Don't see that happening with a 175cc intake port.  Of course, they could be skewed with a really good, slightly raised exhaust port, and hit an 80% ratio, so call it 325cfm on the intake side if that were the case, I see that as "maybe" possible with a good CNC intake port but have my doubts it can happen at .500" with a small port.  The Colvert/Kuntz CNC BBM heads go 321/226 at .500", but they're more in the area of 195cc intake volume. 

It's all conjecture at this point, obviously, just thinking out loud. 
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Yellow Truck on November 02, 2016, 05:39:50 PM
Very nice to see new products launched to support the venerable old FE.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: thatdarncat on November 02, 2016, 06:11:31 PM
Here's a picture from the Bangshift site of the underside of both the head and intake.

(http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff437/red0wl/SEMA-show-2016-trick-flow-30.jpg) (http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/red0wl/media/SEMA-show-2016-trick-flow-30.jpg.html)
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: XR7 on November 02, 2016, 06:34:20 PM
In the Bangshift article on the Trick Flow FE heads, it said they flow 338 intake and 249 exhaust.

http://bangshift.com/general-news/new-products/trick-flow-has-got-tons-of-new-parts-ford-chevy-and-mopar-lovers-will-all-be-happy/





Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Hemi Joel on November 02, 2016, 08:57:03 PM
They told me that the head on display at SEMA is the only one in existence. The ports were obviously CNC'ed. THey said that will be standard, no "as cast heads" will be available. no dyno testing has been done, since there is only 1 head. But they say it is the final design, this is what the production head will be. 6 months ETA on the availability. I don't have time to mess with posting pics now, so I texted them to Jay. but I took a bunch. 
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: XR7 on November 02, 2016, 10:24:31 PM
I don't like the center 2 intake port "roofs" and rockers stand bosses... tell them to beef that up like the outer two cylinders, as far as meat up on top. They look weak there to me, just from the few pictures I have seen. That "one in existence" shouldn't be the "final" casting and machined head. Opinions may vary...

 Trick Flow has real nice stuff (SBF and A460 etc.) and I always said I wished they had an FE head, so I am not bashing, just trying to help. The intake looks interesting, but so close to a Victor, that I am not sure what to think. Still a low profile 6 1/4" carb pad. My guess is it could be better, since they could buy a Victor and improve on it. If there has been no dyno and/or track data, one either... then time will tell I guess. Nice to have another choice.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: jayb on November 02, 2016, 10:49:41 PM
Joel's pictures:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/Tfsa.jpg)

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/Tfsb.jpg)

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/Tfsc.jpg)

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/Tfs4.jpg)

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/Tfse.jpg)
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Qikbbstang on November 03, 2016, 09:48:39 AM
Thank you Hemi Joel for taking those great pics.....*

 It is interesting exactly what configuration Trick-Flow went with -------- single-plane pretty much says hard core racing. 
           You got to figure they are not piggy-back cast at Edelbrock or as mentioned not the cheapo-Chinese models and likely manufactured wherever the rest of T-F's lines are made.

  *Whenever I carry a camera around a trade show all day I always get an irresistible urge for Asian food?
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Katz427 on November 04, 2016, 10:08:50 AM
I did get a reply from TFS, basically the general specs: 175 cc intake, 113 cc exhaust and 70 cc chamber. The minimum bore is listed 4.05 inch. This is the street head and like the 460 eveything can be made larger to increase flow but then they do not fit the 4.05 bore. Available late summer 2017 is best guess now. Now this is good news but, another wait and it seems like almost everything one orders is on "backorder" these days.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on November 29, 2017, 12:05:29 AM
The Trick Flow heads now show as available on the Summit website. Flow info is posted in the Trick Flow catalog. 332 @ 0.600 lift and 338 @ 0.700 lift. Prices seem fair too. I have a set on order, I'll post pictures when they show up.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: chilly460 on November 29, 2017, 08:49:14 AM
Will be very interested in how these work out once folks get their hands on them.  I keep a spreadsheet of published flow numbers on some of the readily available FE heads and track average flow for .200-.700" to compare, if (big if) the TFS flow as advertised, they'd be more than competitive with out of the box BBM and Felony.  They'd be right there with the CNC BBM and Felony heads, and competitive with Blair's Pro Ports. 

I'm sure folks will point out that "we don't race flowbenches" and such, I'm just comparing published numbers and runner volumes as that's the data we have, remains to be seen how they truly stack up. 

I'm just happy to have another choice out there.  At $1920 a set they're set between Ebrock and the other offerings.  I'm sure they'll have bare offerings at some point, as I think builders and a lot of guys here like to spec their own parts and probably get a better valve job/guide clearance/etc in the mix. 
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on November 29, 2017, 08:51:57 AM
I have never seen a Trick Flow head flow as advertised.  When I pull the spark plug out, the numbers match up though.   This has been for Windsor heads and Clevelands.

I have no trouble getting advertised numbers out of the other heads......CHI, BBM, Survival, etc. 
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: chilly460 on November 29, 2017, 09:13:47 AM
Yep, that's the big caveat.  I suppose it's wishful thinking, at least on my part, that TFS will have heard the "rumors" and got their flow bench squared away.  They've been publishing happy numbers since the intro of the Twisted Wedge, but their stuff has always performed so it's something most folks overlook. 

Fully admit I'm no expert, I've ported one set of 460 heads and diddled around looking at other ports so I know just enough to be dangerous.  I just received my BBMs yesterday, looking at the quality of the casting and port shape, not really sure how an FE head with the same volume runner and stock bolt on architecture would be more than incrementally better than a BBM.   That's a mouthful, and again I'm sure people can point out errors in my thinking.  I'd love to be proven wrong as it only helps if we have better performance options out there. 

Again, it's a bit academic to compare them, I'm really just happy there's another option and that the FE development as a whole is moving forward.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on November 29, 2017, 09:44:44 AM
Even Trick Flow's in-house porting service (Total Engine Airflow) is way off on flow.  I tried a ported set of Twisted Wedge R heads from them once and they were so far off that I called the guy. 

I imagine that the TFS FE heads will be similar to the BBM head or Barry's head.  To be honest, I'd rather support Doug or Barry.  TFS really doesn't give a poop about the FE engine.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on November 29, 2017, 11:32:46 AM
The Trick Flow heads I've worked with all flow as advertised and make excellent power. I've used TF heads for a bunch of articles and have been super impressed with the quality. The last set of dyno tests I did with the Mopar 270 heads made 775 hp with out of the box heads. That is on a pump gas 470 inch engine running unleaded premium. Seems pretty good to me for heads that came out of a box.  http://www.hotrod.com/articles/dyno-tested-vacuum-pump-help-engine-make-power/

It will be interesting to see what the TF heads do on a similar 482 inch FE. I'm sure it isn't going to make the same power but it should be in the 600+ range.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Joe-JDC on November 29, 2017, 12:19:01 PM
I have been porting TFS heads since the very first ones came out(TFS/KPI), and the CNC ported heads have always been a few cfm lower on my flow bench than advertised.  They have gotten better the last couple of years, but still after I do a calibration check on my bench, and flow their heads, they are down from the advertised flow.  I just finished a Victor Dominator for a FE forum member in California with Medium Riser port size of the 7224 Edelbrock gasket, and it averages 500 cfm.  It is going on a set of CNC ported BBM heads, and should be a very powerful combination.  Will be interesting to compare the TFS intake to the Victor 427.   Joe-JDC
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: CaptCobrajet on November 29, 2017, 08:35:17 PM
I'm going to order a set and test them on my bench so I can see for myself how they stack up to my junk and other data I have here.  I would also like to look at the volume.  Not sure how long it will take, but I'll get moving on it just for my own info.  I will report my findings from my own testing honestly and accurately.  Stay tuned.......
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: cammerfe on November 29, 2017, 09:38:37 PM
When TFS was owned by the Smith Brothers, they created the 385-series head because there was NO aluminum head available and one of the brothers was a pattern-maker/designer and saw an un-explored market. I was writing for Super Ford at the time and got the first set of castings they produced. The casting was done by a local foundry that was familiar to them.

When I got them, they were all machined but the valve guides and seats were in a plastic bag and needed to be pressed in place and fitted for the valves. I took them to Holbrook's shop and 'Birdy' did them up. The second and third sets went to Roush for evaluation. He told me who to talk to, at 'The Skunkworks' on the bottom end of Southfield, to get the results of their work-up. I believe I wrote two or three articles about them for the magazine.

As I remember, they did better in the way of flow, with minimal work, than was possible from any iron head, no matter what was done to it, but I don't have the manuscripts any more and the magazines, if I have them at all, are buried somewhere in a box.

I believe the Smiths sold out to Summit.

KS
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Joe-JDC on November 29, 2017, 11:37:12 PM
Summit site says if you order today, 01-08-18 shipping date for heads or intake manifold.  So they get your credit card now, for possible January shipping date.  Sounds like they got the cart before the horse, so to speak.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on November 29, 2017, 11:50:25 PM
When I look at the Summit website it says the flat tappet heads will ship tomorrow with a price of $888 per head. Seems like a good deal to me.

The intake shows a shipping data of 1/8 and a price of $500.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: plovett on November 30, 2017, 06:50:02 AM
Where are you guys finding the Trick Flow FE heads on the Summit site?  I looked using their menu and couldn't find them.  Am I just retarded?  Wait, don't answer that.   But where are the heads?

thanks,

paulie
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: chilly460 on November 30, 2017, 08:00:18 AM
It's not easy, I grabbed the part number off the TFS catalog and plugged it into Summit to finally find them.  They're not listed in Trick Flow's online catalog, just the PDF version. 

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-56417002-c00

Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: plovett on November 30, 2017, 08:10:39 AM
Thanks!
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on November 30, 2017, 10:11:18 AM
When I look at the Summit website it says the flat tappet heads will ship tomorrow with a price of $888 per head. Seems like a good deal to me.

The intake shows a shipping data of 1/8 and a price of $500.
Those seem to have disappeared...
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on November 30, 2017, 02:59:36 PM
When I look at the Summit website it says the flat tappet heads will ship tomorrow with a price of $888 per head. Seems like a good deal to me.

The intake shows a shipping data of 1/8 and a price of $500.
Those seem to have disappeared...

What disappeared? I still see the heads on my screen and when I called Summit they said they have them on the shelf. A local guy just got a set of the heads so they are real. My set is supposed to ship next week.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: e philpott on November 30, 2017, 03:21:22 PM
It says not available for me , Blair must have got the last set ? lol

whoops , I guess Image unavailable and " shipment 1-8-18 if ordered today " so must not be in stock
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on November 30, 2017, 03:24:36 PM
When I look at the Summit website it says the flat tappet heads will ship tomorrow with a price of $888 per head. Seems like a good deal to me.

The intake shows a shipping data of 1/8 and a price of $500.
Those seem to have disappeared...

What disappeared? I still see the heads on my screen and when I called Summit they said they have them on the shelf. A local guy just got a set of the heads so they are real. My set is supposed to ship next week.
I can't find the flat tappet heads for $888 anywhere on Summit. Didn't say they were real, just said they disappeared...as in maybe sold out? Trick Flow doesn't even show the FE as an engine choice on their website. Chilly's link is for a set that are selling for $959.50 available 1/8.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on November 30, 2017, 03:50:13 PM
Are you using the correct part number? Flat tappet heads are TFS-56417001-C00. When I enter that number I get "in stock" and $888. If you aren't a proshop member then the price will be higher........
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on November 30, 2017, 04:12:40 PM
Are you using the correct part number? Flat tappet heads are TFS-56417001-C00. When I enter that number I get "in stock" and $888. If you aren't a proshop member then the price will be higher........
Nope, just using the search function. Didn't see the p/n offered anywhere. You're right...the price is higher. Guess you left out that little detail... :(
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: wayne on November 30, 2017, 04:30:01 PM
I  talked with a parts man and he told me owner got to tour edelbrock foundry and he seen a skid ready to go.  It was marked trick flow but he did not say they were fe he did not know they cast trick flow parts.This was from motor state (lane automotive) I asked about a set of trick flow they did not have any yet but had four sets of edelbrocks.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Katz427 on November 30, 2017, 04:40:15 PM
I received an email from Trickflow to inform that Summit had cylinder heads in stock. That was yesterday, I have not tried yet to order.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: C8WE on November 30, 2017, 06:28:51 PM
Ordered and on there way.
Going to put them on the flow bench and see how they do.
They will be going on a 462 build for my 69 Torino formal roof custom cruiser.

Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Katz427 on December 04, 2017, 11:11:16 AM
Anyone received their heads yet? Wondering what chamber size is. Blair said he would post flow numbers. Curious, I have not bought any yet of any manufacturer.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: BattlestarGalactic on December 05, 2017, 11:40:53 AM
My local shop has two sets of heads.   They were pushing them on me Saturday.  Looks nice, I'm sure they will put them on their flow bench to see what they are like.

My plan was to maybe do a freshen up on my motor.  I did a compression check on it the other day and got 210-230# on all 8 holes.  Sounds solid.  I have an oil pan leak so it needs to come out and fix that.  I'm going to look at a few bearings and if all seems well I am not going to tear it down.  I have 4 seasons on it, plus 34 dyno pulls.

With no full rebuild cutting into the budget, I MIGHT look at upgrading my antique Ed's with a new set of TF's.  My Ed's were just hand worked when I bought them in 1996.  They flowed 280/220 on Fox Lake's flow bench.  That is what Barry's heads flow out of the box.  I can spend $1000 to get mine CNC'd or just upgrade to TF's.  I can sell my Ed's or maybe upgrade the blower car with better heads?(not that a blower needs it).  It's been 16 yrs on that 390, and it has a few leaks so maybe I need to pull it and tinker with it?

No money for a big roller cam upgrade, still have to run my old flat tappet.  Not sure if the power increase is worth the money?  We'll see after I get the motor out sometime soon.  Clutch needs a freshen up.  That won't be bad, I already have a new disc from last year's winnings if I need it.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Joe-JDC on December 05, 2017, 11:16:38 PM
What I don't understand is why everyone wants to jump ship at this point.  Edelbrock heads are solid, Survival heads are solid, BBMs are solid, and all three can be ported to make excellent power.  They are readily available right now.  JMO, but until someone actually flows a pair on their own flow bench, and compares them to the others the same day, it is apples to oranges about flow numbers.  Joe-JDC
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: chilly460 on December 05, 2017, 11:56:35 PM
I think folks, myself included, are just curious how they’ll perform.  Seems to me folks were just as excited when Felony and BBMs were coming out.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: BattlestarGalactic on December 06, 2017, 09:00:07 AM
I'm not jumping ship.  But monetary wise it might be better to buy the new TF versions.  They are already CNC and will come set up for my little cam.  They do seem to have fixed a few flaws of the older head designs and if I'm going to spend $1K for CNC work on my 20 yr old heads, I might as well spend $1500 and get new.  I can then use my old ones elsewhere or sell to recoup.  It is all up in the air til I get my junk apart and see if it needs anything. 

The shop I use has a bench, so we might flow mine this winter to just see how accurate it was from 20 yrs ago and after 1/2 dozen valve jobs since.  I know they will do the same to the TF heads so we can look at them apples to apples.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: machoneman on December 06, 2017, 09:53:02 AM
What I don't understand is why everyone wants to jump ship at this point.  Edelbrock heads are solid, Survival heads are solid, BBMs are solid, and all three can be ported to make excellent power.  They are readily available right now.  JMO, but until someone actually flows a pair on their own flow bench, and compares them to the others the same day, it is apples to oranges about flow numbers.  Joe-JDC

Joe, you make a great point (jumping ship). Yet you are quite correct in needing some flow numbers beforehand. Still, it's an exciting time for sure to see more and more quality FE parts coming to the fore. It's also amazing since the engine style itself has been out of production for so many decades now.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Joe-JDC on December 06, 2017, 11:11:55 AM
I don't see anywhere in the item description that the heads are CNC ready.  IF, and IF that is true at $899.00 per head, then that IS a REAL bargain price.  I would be willing to purchase a pair at that price to flow and compare against Keith Craft Stage II, BBM CNC, Survival, etc.  Just waiting to hear from someone who actually buys them and can verify they are already CNC'd at that price.  Joe-JDC
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: drdano on December 06, 2017, 11:49:15 AM
From their SEMA 2017 PDF, https://static.trickflow.com/pdf/catalog_2017-SEMA.pdf (https://static.trickflow.com/pdf/catalog_2017-SEMA.pdf).  Page 53 has some details on the heads and intake.  Attached is that page.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: BattlestarGalactic on December 06, 2017, 11:56:09 AM
The intake runners have been optimized to increase flow velocity and Trick Flow’s special CNC Street Ported treatment guarantees proper dimensional accuracy and balance between the runners.

The ones I looked at last weekend were CNC.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: chilly460 on December 06, 2017, 12:08:51 PM
Yep, I was wondering if "CNC profiled" just meant they used CNC to clean up the port entry and maybe the seat to bowl transition, but the pics showed a full CNC runner. 

The flow figures are perhaps ambitious, but if they're full CNC modeled off of a good port shape there is a chance they could be a step up. 

In my mind, it's really no different than when AFR started selling basically all of their lineup with full CNC ports, they were running right there with quality hand ported castings, and the small block head market changed ever since. 
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on December 06, 2017, 12:17:42 PM
I don't see anywhere in the item description that the heads are CNC ready.  IF, and IF that is true at $899.00 per head, then that IS a REAL bargain price.  I would be willing to purchase a pair at that price to flow and compare against Keith Craft Stage II, BBM CNC, Survival, etc.  Just waiting to hear from someone who actually buys them and can verify they are already CNC'd at that price.  Joe-JDC

That is the deal. Fully CNC ported for $888 each. Trick Flow did the same thing with their Mopar heads last year. Guys were used to paying $1500 for a set of Edelbrock heads then another $1000 to get them ported and Trick Flow showed up with CNC ported heads for $1500. Bam, everyone got to save a bunch of money. (well except for the guys who had been making money porting the Edelbrock heads that is)

In the Mopar world Edelbrock never responded. Edelbrock has the capability of making CNC ported heads but they didn't bother doing that. They reduced the price of their heads a little bit and then they came out with an E street head which was even cheaper but they never seemed to respond with a CNC ported head. I don't know what will happen in the FE world. Just have to wait and see.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: chilly460 on December 06, 2017, 12:25:13 PM
TrickFlow does the same as a lot of the small block head manufacturers, they offer an as cast version, and full CNC for most of the lineup.  Right now the full CNC Twisted Wedge setup for a hydro roller is $825, so the $959 for full CNC FE head from the same place isn't out of question. 

It should be noted that even though the heads are CNC finished, the valve jobs can still be lacking.  My AFR205s weren't concentric to the guide, not as bad as Edelbrocks not sealing but they're definitely not "bolt on". 
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: garyv on December 06, 2017, 02:28:57 PM
Pretty impressive flow numbers if they turn out to flow as advertised.
A set of complete heads for under 2K would be a winner for sure.

garyv
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: mbrunson427 on December 06, 2017, 02:45:02 PM
Here's some preliminary data that was posted on the FE Facebook page. Don't think I've ever seen the guy on this forum. I'll wait to see if Joe/Blair/Barry/Brent/others post info that jives with this, but here's the first data I've personally seen. As everyone has stated.....doesn't look like they flow as advertised, but still well. From what was posted, these are out of the box heads, 2.19" intake, 1.65" exhaust, 70cc combustion chamber. Still like to see a second or third set of data that agrees.

(https://s26.postimg.org/grbbiqnm1/IMG_4181.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://s26.postimg.org/87rxkzf9l/IMG_4182.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://s26.postimg.org/qytuv59u1/IMG_4183.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://s26.postimg.org/t9rwzbkll/IMG_4180.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://s26.postimg.org/4qpvi0g7d/IMG_4184.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://s26.postimg.org/97dn2y51l/IMG_4185.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://s26.postimg.org/nkbof0efd/Trick_Flow_Numbers.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: BattlestarGalactic on December 06, 2017, 03:18:07 PM
At 300/230, that isn't enough for me to warrant buying them to replace the heads I have that go 280/220.  They are a bit optimistic with their advertised 330/245.  I don't have enough cam/rpm to really worry about having "bigger" heads.  The package all has to work together an my present motor does pretty well for what it is.

I'm the redheaded step child racer.  I don't worry about how fast I go, I just want it to be reliable and very long lasting.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on December 06, 2017, 03:26:56 PM
What's port volume?  I haven't even checked. 

The numbers are about what I figured they'd be.....about 20-30 under advertised. 

I'd rather give my money to Barry or Doug. 
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: chilly460 on December 06, 2017, 04:09:43 PM
175cc
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: plovett on December 06, 2017, 05:44:34 PM
It looks like the flow numbers are on a 4.125" bore tube?  If that's the case, then the numbers look pretty good to me.  If the numbers were taken with a 4.25" or 4.35" tube, I'd feel a bit different.

I like the valve size choice.

175cc is not very big for an FE head.

I dunno.  Just thinking.

paulie
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on December 06, 2017, 05:50:03 PM
Those numbers are all in line with BBM and SM heads..........as cast.........

Port volume is in the ballpark of other CNC ported heads.  Nothing special there.  If they were flowing 300 cfm with a 160-165cc port, then I might raise my eyebrows a little more. 

Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: plovett on December 06, 2017, 07:58:32 PM
They look decent for $1800, compared to around $1400 for some Edelbrocks.   

I see your point, though.  There's a lot more potential in the heads you mentioned.

paulie
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: CaptCobrajet on December 07, 2017, 12:02:02 PM
The vein in the floor is interesting.  Curious if it has inserts in the intake and exhaust bolt holes, or just threads.  The exhaust threads won't live long without inserts.  I can't tell by the pics, and have not received heads yet.  The posted numbers look realistic, but benches are like opinions.  I'll know more when I flow one here.  I have about a telephone book worth of FE info from my bench (along with corresponding power and ET) to compare to. 
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: C8WE on December 08, 2017, 11:42:50 PM
Hi Folks,
For a comparison here are the results  of my BBM heads as received using the same flow bench with a 4.250 bore size. 
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/24775044_1721081301236264_4230432614067494598_n.jpg?oh=3e6b095700f07ed9b4956076f7936127&oe=5AD5F739)
Jim Slattery
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: My427stang on December 09, 2017, 09:05:04 AM
So, first, I want to say thanks C8WE for posting apples to apples

Second, I want to say clearly that I am not advertising for TFS, because in the past I have not been a TFS fan and actually in their early days fixed quite a few cases of carnage from their bad SBF and SBC heads, but it has been a long time.  The specifics of quality will be important to me.  (valve job, flow, springs and valve choice, rocker threads, intake and exhaust threads, chamber size etc)

Let me put that in other words though, saving 600 bucks won't help if a seat falls out, valve heads breaks, or guide breaks all jamming parts into the cylinder or cylinders.  In the late 90s/early 2000s, I saw all of those.  That was a long time ago though so would like to see the difference

Third, I feel a bit of loyalty to our FE friends and suppliers on and off the forum, and even to Edelbrock for heads, intakes, and even EFI stuff now, so let my comparison be a way to look at this with numbers, and realize if given a close choice, for big power and better parts, likely I'd throw money to our forum guys who likely would build a higher quality head with tighter machining standards

That being said, the TFS, if you compare it against ADVERTISED BBM cost (suppliers feel free to chime in if it's incorrect, this is from BBM's site and seems high to me) the TFS looks pretty good as it slightly outperforms the stock BBM and costs less.  This is using the same bench information from C8WE, NOT TFS advertised numbers

If you compare it against current ACTUAL prices on Summit against an Edelbrock, it's a significantly better deal IMHO. FYI - Because I didn't have the same bench for the Edels, I used STan Weiss's site and used the ones I liked best for a stock head.  However, the difference is great enough that I do not think you could get an Edel there for the cost difference.

To me, I think that ESPECIALLY if the quality is good, Edelbrock should be ready for a decent hit.  See below

(https://s20.postimg.org/780tj57u5/Head_Comparison_Intake.jpg)
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: garyv on December 09, 2017, 11:34:34 AM
Good Info Ross.  All things being equal I think the trick flows will be popular.
$600 is a lot of money in these tough economic times.
Just hanging out on the Facebook FE forum I can tell you a bunch of guys there will be looking at them.
I think it will be easier to make an informed decision when some of the builders here get them in their hands and
we can get their opinion. 
Edelbrock will surely take a hit.
Time will tell.

garyv
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: CaptCobrajet on December 09, 2017, 01:01:06 PM
Did anyone happen to notice that the head they had at SEMA 2016 is not the same head, and not the same ports that were displayed at PRI 2017?  The pics in this thread show the heads are different.  I guess they changed at some stage of the development..........

I am supposed to have one Wednesday. 
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: C8WE on December 09, 2017, 01:29:40 PM
FWIW here are the results of my BBM heads after being ported and new valve seats and different valves. The heads were ported by Laroy and Son from Challis ID using there Superflow bench

(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/24231860_1717051104972617_8316080226974370799_n.jpg?oh=c7c9d4f74601dc85ab7fd6c7f86e74e7&oe=5AC10E4D)
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: XR7 on December 09, 2017, 02:38:38 PM
One thing I noticed that kind of screws up the "apples to apples" comparison... is the TFS heads were flowed on a 4.125 bore tube, and the BBM were flowed on a 4.250 bore tube. Why would anyone do that??? It will make a difference for sure as I would think the chambers are both wider than 4.125, so not a good flow test on that size bore in my opinion, as it will really hurt the intake flow as far as "shrouding". Exact placement on the bore tube is critical, but if the tube is smaller than the chamber, it will still hurt.

Also, unless you have the same exact valves and valve job BOTH, not apples to apples either, these two can make a huge difference. I am not defending either, have no game in the fight, just don't see it as a good comparison without more details and rework.

My thoughts are the TFS head is a good looking street head, good bang for the buck, aimed at the 600-700 HP market, but not an all out race head at least with those exact ports. Any other FE head that is fully CNC'd would cost much more, but could be much better also.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: plovett on December 09, 2017, 04:08:15 PM
Just because the TFS heads are CNC'd, that doesn't mean they can't be ported more, or modified?  Right?

I get the feeling there is a feeling that once a head has had CNC porting, it's done and that's all there is.  I don't think that is true.  CNC porting takes the human out of porting and increases consistency.  In this case, I see it more as a manufacturing process, not necessarily the ultimate form of the head.  I could be wrong, though.

JMO,

paulie
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: CaptCobrajet on December 09, 2017, 04:51:45 PM
You are right Paul.  A head doesn't know it is a CNC head until you tell it that it is.  However, one porter's idea, copied by the machine, could remove material that another guy wants to be there......rendering it not possible to do after the first go-around, much like when a particular casting just does not have material desired.  What you don't know without some detective work, is how much meat you have to work with.  The Pro Ports I like for CNC purposes are about five pounds heavier than all others, and have that tiny starter hole.  A blank sheet of canvas that does not require you to compromise with anyone else's prior ideas. 

Folks should be careful to try to compare heads by "he flowed, he said" numbers.  And also not concentrate on the last number on the sheet either.  You really gotta pick a horse and ride it 'til it throws you.  There is so much info floating around that it only complicates the layman's decision.  One thing I can guarantee is that a person shouldn't run out and by any head strictly from an internet flow number.  Much more to it, as many know.  The flow should be comparative, and one of many attributes of a good performing head.  And quality is a whole separate item.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: machoneman on December 09, 2017, 08:12:23 PM
I'll add to what Blair said as I've been amazed at fellows getting the latest trick CNC'ed heads but then plop on a near as-delivered intake. Worse, they also don't make any effort at what I'll call 'balancing' the entire engine combo (exhaust, carb or EFI, cam, timing, etc.) around those new heads.   
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: chilly460 on December 09, 2017, 09:10:02 PM
Agreed, with all the info out there today in various forums like this, seems easy to ask around and get a decent combo going.  Plus you have guys nice enough to post their combos and dynos/ETs so it's fairly easy to put a database together and figure out some good packages.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: TomP on December 10, 2017, 04:12:52 AM
Here is the one at SEMA this year...
(http://s25.postimg.org/pxvo70fzz/IMG_8392.jpg)

And one from last year (were two there)
(http://s25.postimg.org/p2d1ffblr/IMG_8260.jpg)

Not sure if last years had the same vane in the floor..
(http://s25.postimg.org/j05eoxn5r/IMG_8259.jpg)
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: prost on December 12, 2017, 04:28:15 PM
As Summit owns TFS, wouldn't we expect the price point to be lower on their website than the Edelbrock's?
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: mbrunson427 on December 12, 2017, 05:48:08 PM
I may be wrong.....but I had read that Edelbrock's foundry was actually casting these TFS heads for them? In that case, the companies are all tied in together and the price points are all brewed up for a reason.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: chilly460 on December 12, 2017, 08:55:01 PM
The TFS are fully CNCd, while that doesn’t necessarily make them better than a raw cast head, it is somewhat time intensive and requires a pricy machine to perform so it’s not surprising they’re the more expensive option
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on December 12, 2017, 10:31:37 PM
I may be wrong.....but I had read that Edelbrock's foundry was actually casting these TFS heads for them? In that case, the companies are all tied in together and the price points are all brewed up for a reason.
Just because Edelbrock is casting someone else's cylinder head (and I'm not saying they are) doesn't mean they have some or any influence or tie with TF. Edelbrock casts a lot of parts for a lot of companies. They cast AFR heads too. The heads are cast to the company's design specifications. It's just a foundry. Funny thing is, I've been told that even Edelbrock is having some of their intakes cast in China. Go figure.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on December 12, 2017, 10:36:45 PM
The TFS are fully CNCd, while that doesn’t necessarily make them better than a raw cast head, it is somewhat time intensive and requires a pricy machine to perform so it’s not surprising they’re the more expensive option
A CNC program is better in that it helps ensure way more consistency from cylinder to cylinder than an as-cast head. A CNC port is usually just a copy of a hand made port and only as good as the prototype. Some are good, some are good, some are not so good.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Katz427 on December 13, 2017, 08:15:24 AM
I'll add a little I know. Laurel Aluminium​ Casting outside Pittsburgh does a lot of work for Summit/Trickflow, and they have cast Fe heads for them.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Katz427 on December 13, 2017, 08:19:57 AM
I just looked at the Laurel Aluminium web site and they show some cylinder heads one being an FE, plus an aluminium block that sure looks like an FE. Wonder who they are casting the block for ?
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on December 13, 2017, 09:02:05 AM
I just looked at the Laurel Aluminium web site and they show some cylinder heads one being an FE, plus an aluminium block that sure looks like an FE. Wonder who they are casting the block for ?
Only two alum blocks I know of are the Pond and Shelby. Personally I didn't think Edelbrock was casting them. Trick Flow's castings are very unique in the industry, at least the BBFord and BBChev that I've seen.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Katz427 on December 13, 2017, 09:21:48 AM
The BBF heads and BBC were being cast at Boose aluminium also in western PA. Boose and Laurel pour a lot of A356
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: thatdarncat on December 13, 2017, 11:52:05 AM
Photos from the Laurel Aluminum website. FE head looks to possibly have a “SK” casting number, best I can zoom in.

(https://s5.postimg.org/80ta9ptaf/F5_D609_CA-_C1_DC-4_E92-9078-293_BA7_EA35_BC.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/80ta9ptab/)

(https://s5.postimg.org/lka4fceyf/19_CCCB7_D-_FB43-43_DB-9_E6_C-80_D8_CE98_A25_E.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://s5.postimg.org/viv31gdzr/4_A889289-_F42_C-4_B94-994_C-_B42_F8_B561_D4_C.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Barry_R on December 13, 2017, 12:45:02 PM
Looks like Robert Pond's stuff
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Katz427 on December 13, 2017, 01:18:02 PM
I think Barry nailed it, looks like Robert's stuff. The block definitely his, probably the head too. Laurel has a good reputation in the casting industry, so not surprising too see Pond and Trickflow use their services.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: mbrunson427 on December 13, 2017, 01:26:49 PM
I may be wrong.....but I had read that Edelbrock's foundry was actually casting these TFS heads for them? In that case, the companies are all tied in together and the price points are all brewed up for a reason.
Just because Edelbrock is casting someone else's cylinder head (and I'm not saying they are) doesn't mean they have some or any influence or tie with TF. Edelbrock casts a lot of parts for a lot of companies. They cast AFR heads too. The heads are cast to the company's design specifications. It's just a foundry. Funny thing is, I've been told that even Edelbrock is having some of their intakes cast in China. Go figure.

Oh c'mon now. Why would a company agree to manufacture something that is going to inherently put their product line out of market. Of course they would make sure that their product line still had a place in the market.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: fekbmax on December 13, 2017, 02:29:41 PM
I think Barry nailed it, looks like Robert's stuff. The block definitely his, probably the head too. Laurel has a good reputation in the casting industry, so not surprising too see Pond and Trickflow use their services.

Doesn't look like Roberts lifter bore configuration,  more like the old genesis or possibly side oiler garage.
Atleast on my pond block the lifter bores are cast in some what conventional fashion. It's odd, the lifter bore configuration looks like genesis yet the valley support looks like pond. IDK.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: BattlestarGalactic on December 13, 2017, 03:19:37 PM
Oh c'mon now. Why would a company agree to manufacture something that is going to inherently put their product line out of market. Of course they would make sure that their product line still had a place in the market.

If they are only making runs of 20-40 parts for someone it surely is no threat to Edelbrock's marketplace.  That is peanuts to the quantity they deal with.

You can buy Edelbrocks all day, every day, in stock.  These specialty places, if they are out of stock you have to wait months for the "next order".
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on December 13, 2017, 04:18:28 PM
Got confirmation that my 703 heads are on the way. These are the ones with the Ti retainers. Not sure which valve spring they have since the catalog information hasn't been updated yet but once I have the heads in my hands I'll know for sure. I'm going to be running a small solid roller (Comp 292R grind) so I'll need a decent spring but nothing killer.

Comp doesn't show a 292R in the catalog for the FE, just the 288 and 308 but they were happy enough to grind one for me. Engine is going in a '63 1/2 Galaxie so didn't want to go nutso on the cam.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: cwhitney on December 13, 2017, 07:17:14 PM
Laurel Aluminium in Pittsburg does stuff for Robert Pond. I've been to that foundry with Pond. Theres also another foundry in Youngstown Ohio that does stuff for Pond. Buddy Bar also does stuff for Pond
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: plovett on December 14, 2017, 08:56:25 PM
Got confirmation that my 703 heads are on the way. These are the ones with the Ti retainers. Not sure which valve spring they have since the catalog information hasn't been updated yet but once I have the heads in my hands I'll know for sure. I'm going to be running a small solid roller (Comp 292R grind) so I'll need a decent spring but nothing killer.

Comp doesn't show a 292R in the catalog for the FE, just the 288 and 308 but they were happy enough to grind one for me. Engine is going in a '63 1/2 Galaxie so didn't want to go nutso on the cam.

What are the spec's on the 292R if you don't mind saying?  When you click on the 288R cam on the Compcams website this link comes up. 

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=951&sb=2

It says 292/248 duration.  I emailed Compcams asking about it and they said it used lobe #1476 which is 288 @0.015" and 244 @0.050".

So something is not matching up with their numbers.  I was wondering if you got a clear answer.

paulie
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on December 14, 2017, 11:52:24 PM
I'm using the XR292R which uses the Xtreme Energy lobes 4876/4877 on 110 centers. I think the catalog cams for the FE use the High Energy Street Roller lobes. The 288R would use #1476 which is 244 duration in my old lobe catalog but it might have changed since then.

The XR292R is 254/260 at 050 and had .388 / .392 lobe lift. I'm using the Comp 19046 rocker arms so lift will be around 0.670 inches.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: plovett on December 15, 2017, 06:07:09 AM
I'm using the XR292R which uses the Xtreme Energy lobes 4876/4877 on 110 centers. I think the catalog cams for the FE use the High Energy Street Roller lobes. The 288R would use #1476 which is 244 duration in my old lobe catalog but it might have changed since then.

The XR292R is 254/260 at 050 and had .388 / .392 lobe lift. I'm using the Comp 19046 rocker arms so lift will be around 0.670 inches.

Thanks!
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on December 18, 2017, 10:45:14 PM
My heads showed up today. They look great! Very nice looking machine work. Should have the engine up and running in a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on December 19, 2017, 07:48:14 AM
Sure like to hear their explanation for the vein in the floor. I wanted to get by the TF booth this year at PRI but never made it. Heads look good. Just...that vein...
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: jayb on December 19, 2017, 08:38:34 AM
The top of that vane would have a larger radius than the short turn.  Do you suppose that might help keep the flow attached to the short turn more effectively than a flat floor?

Could also be just a marketing gimimick.  "Ooooo, look at that vane on the floor!  Must be high tech..."  ;D
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: KMcCullah on December 19, 2017, 10:26:24 AM
I've seen similar "biased" intake port floors. Vizard touched on it in one of his books. Seemed like it was a feature that helped in chiverlay ports. Never seen it incorporated into a FE though.  ???
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: e philpott on December 19, 2017, 11:14:26 AM
I wondering who will be the first to grind it out ?
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: mbrunson427 on December 19, 2017, 11:40:36 AM
My initial thought was that it was "dead space". If that area of the port isn't gaining you any flow then it may as well be filled back in?
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on December 19, 2017, 12:56:06 PM
The top of that vane would have a larger radius than the short turn.  Do you suppose that might help keep the flow attached to the short turn more effectively than a flat floor?

Could also be just a marketing gimimick.  "Ooooo, look at that vane on the floor!  Must be high tech..."  ;D
I'm thinking more your second guess. Based on what I'm learning about it (according to Darin Morgan and others) it's a wet flow thing, not a cfm thing. I've played with it on the flow bench on several different ports and never seen any airflow gains that I could attribute directly to the vein. It's not an area thing... lots of places to manipulate area and airflow in a port. Not a swirl thing, that doesn't happen on the floor and s/t in a way the vein would effect it. For wet flow, it sounds like some port architectures respond to it, some don't which is common sense but you don't just go throwing a vein down the middle of the port and say viola! Other areas in the port need to be addressed to compliment the vein and again, this is doing wet flow development, not on a typical dry bench. If TF has done all this R&D and found this vein to work in this port, then hats off to them but I have to say I don't see anyone else with one in their port and there are some really healthy, good working FE ports out there that seem to make some good power. That's my take...
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Stangman on December 19, 2017, 01:42:53 PM
As for the rise in the floor KMcCullah I believe is right had a set of snowflake heads off of a 509 BBC
that my dad bought off of a friend of his and the rise is a good 1/2 inch high maybe a smidge more
its very thin and smooth alot of time must have gone into it. But lets get off of the chevy stuff got alittle
queezy feelin
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on December 19, 2017, 04:35:46 PM
As for the rise in the floor KMcCullah I believe is right had a set of snowflake heads off of a 509 BBC
that my dad bought off of a friend of his and the rise is a good 1/2 inch high maybe a smidge more
its very thin and smooth alot of time must have gone into it. But lets get off of the chevy stuff got alittle
queezy feelin
Has nothing to do with Chevy, Ford or any other emblem. Port has no idea what's name is on it.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Stangman on December 19, 2017, 07:26:44 PM
I understand but what Im saying is I have seen this rise in the floor and way higher and neater than trick flows head. I understand that it doesnt matter which head it is, it just so happens that thats the one i had
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: cwhitney on December 19, 2017, 09:10:29 PM
The new Ford racing Z2 heads for a small block have a similar vane in the ports.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on December 19, 2017, 09:18:36 PM
Got the heads mocked up on the 482 shortblock. Manifolds bolt on okay, gaskets seem to line up pretty well, intake bolts on, etc. Might need some minor tweaking here or there but shouldn't take a bunch of work.

The valve springs are for a hyd roller even though the heads come with Ti retainers. I don't understand the thinking behind that so we'll need to swap on some solid roller cam springs and then use the hyd roller springs on a different engine. Trick Flow usually puts solid roller springs on the heads that have Ti retainers but guess they didn't think anyone would want to run a solid roller FE??
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Heo on December 19, 2017, 09:29:11 PM
The friend that made my heads do a lot of highend Rally and Rallycross
engines where you have over 2hp/cu in NA. And he have a lot of heads laying around
 in different stages of progress, some have vanes similar to that but as i remember it they are in the
roof he said its for start early to guide the air  around the valve spindle
He said some ports react positive to it some don't
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on December 19, 2017, 10:31:00 PM
The FelPro gaskets seem to be a nice fit for the Trick Flow ports. I also checked the Cometic gaskets and they fit, but were oversize. I think the Cometic gasket is designed for a much taller intake port and a bigger exhaust port.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on December 19, 2017, 10:32:26 PM
This engine will be nice looking with the factory manifolds, tunnel wedge type intake and tall valve covers. Should drive nice with the dual throttle bodies.....
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: jayb on December 19, 2017, 10:56:12 PM
The FelPro gaskets seem to be a nice fit for the Trick Flow ports. I also checked the Cometic gaskets and they fit, but were oversize. I think the Cometic gasket is designed for a much taller intake port and a bigger exhaust port.

Andy, be careful of those gaskets, those appear to be the dreaded Fel-Pro "Print-O-Leak" gaskets.  Lots of folks have had problems with those, do a search and you will find pictures of those gaskets blown out on the bottom of the ports, causing vacuum leaks or in some cases water leaks.  I'd stick with the Cometics or the some Mr. Gasket composition gaskets.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Barry_R on December 20, 2017, 06:01:48 AM
He can use the 1247S3 variant with the steel liner
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on December 20, 2017, 06:06:28 AM
Got the heads mocked up on the 482 shortblock. Manifolds bolt on okay, gaskets seem to line up pretty well, intake bolts on, etc. Might need some minor tweaking here or there but shouldn't take a bunch of work.

The valve springs are for a hyd roller even though the heads come with Ti retainers. I don't understand the thinking behind that so we'll need to swap on some solid roller cam springs and then use the hyd roller springs on a different engine. Trick Flow usually puts solid roller springs on the heads that have Ti retainers but guess they didn't think anyone would want to run a solid roller FE??

Light valves and light retainers are a good idea for a hydraulic roller FE that's going to try to get over 6000 rpm.  Plus it's marketing and eye candy for all the guys with lower rpm stuff.

If they intend for guys to use solid roller camshafts, then they need to offer an option for T&D race rocker mounting so that guys won't pull the rocker stand studs out of the heads.  If you're over 600 lbs open pressure, you should be eyeballing this too.  I know you said you're going with the Comp Cams rockers, but none of us use those, so there's not a lot of data on them.  I would at least change the helicoils out to big inserts.  Once you pull a rocker stand stud out of the head, you never wanna do it again.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: plovett on December 20, 2017, 09:17:25 AM
Yeah, I don't think you want to use those intake gaskets unless you are Canadian and not using antifreeze.

I've seen them deteriorate and "squirm" around on my own 428.  I'm using Mr. Gasket 202A's now.  Much better.

The Mr.Gasket 202A's are easy to trim to the port size, too.   Though they are limited in how far you can trim them, if your ports are very big.

JMO,

paulie
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on December 20, 2017, 11:41:02 AM
Here is a picture for Jay
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on December 20, 2017, 11:42:18 AM
Anyone else using the new one piece rear main seal from Roush? Seems like a nice part but a little hard to find.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on December 20, 2017, 11:44:26 AM
He can use the 1247S3 variant with the steel liner

Thanks Barry, I'll take a look at that. I have the Cometic gaskets on hand but they have really big ports in them. Might work okay, just looks weird.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Barry_R on December 20, 2017, 12:17:33 PM
Anyone else using the new one piece rear main seal from Roush? Seems like a nice part but a little hard to find.

Same item Kaase uses on 460s.  Formed in a circle - slice it and glue the pieces together around the crank before setting it in the block
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on December 20, 2017, 12:36:24 PM
I used one on a Pontiac once.  It leaked.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Heo on December 20, 2017, 01:56:56 PM
Anyone else using the new one piece rear main seal from Roush? Seems like a nice part but a little hard to find.

How do you get it over the flywheelflange ??? is it split somewhere?
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on December 20, 2017, 02:25:33 PM
You split it. 

You cut it with a razor blade and then stretch it over the crankshaft.  Split goes towards the top of the block.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Heo on December 20, 2017, 03:57:00 PM
You split it. 

You cut it with a razor blade and then stretch it over the crankshaft.  Split goes towards the top of the block.
OK then you must be able to glue it together with locktite i think.
Locktite have a kit for making O-rings from a roll of rubber strip
that you cut to length and glue together so...If its needed i don't
know but i don't think it would hurt either
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: amdscooter on December 20, 2017, 04:20:01 PM
He can use the 1247S3 variant with the steel liner

Hate to drag the thread OT, but I have a set of the standard 1247's that I was planning on installing in the next few days. Dang cork at the front and rear of the intake have been leeching oil and making a mess since I put the motor together, finally mad enough to replace them. So does the S3 variant fare better or should I just avoid the "Print-O-Leak" all together and get the Cometic/ Mr gasket? 
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: BattlestarGalactic on December 21, 2017, 08:59:43 AM

If they intend for guys to use solid roller camshafts, then they need to offer an option for T&D race rocker mounting so that guys won't pull the rocker stand studs out of the heads.  If you're over 600 lbs open pressure, you should be eyeballing this too.  I know you said you're going with the Comp Cams rockers, but none of us use those, so there's not a lot of data on them.  I would at least change the helicoils out to big inserts.  Once you pull a rocker stand stud out of the head, you never wanna do it again.

I was questioning a different bolt pattern for like a T/D set up when I was looking at the set at my local shop.  Supposedly they did beef that area up so the threads have more material around them unlike the Ed's which are thin.  It did seem to have a large flat area to mount rockers to.  Will it work?  I suppose someone will have to try and see. 
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Rory428 on December 21, 2017, 03:49:15 PM
You split it. 

You cut it with a razor blade and then stretch it over the crankshaft.  Split goes towards the top of the block.
So, are you supposed to cut the real main seal into 2 pieces, or make one cut and bend it to get around the cranks flywheel flange? Either sounds pretty sketchy to me. Most 1 piece seals also use a garter spring on the backside of the seal lip, does this one also have a spring? Personally, I have always believed most FE rear seal leaks to be from the side seals or the cap, not tghe rubber seals, so you would still have that area to deal with, if you did somehow get this "1 piece" seal to fit properly and actually work.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: e philpott on December 21, 2017, 04:08:26 PM
I'm with Rory on the One Piece Main Seal
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on December 21, 2017, 06:13:54 PM
You split it. 

You cut it with a razor blade and then stretch it over the crankshaft.  Split goes towards the top of the block.
So, are you supposed to cut the real main seal into 2 pieces, or make one cut and bend it to get around the cranks flywheel flange? Either sounds pretty sketchy to me. Most 1 piece seals also use a garter spring on the backside of the seal lip, does this one also have a spring? Personally, I have always believed most FE rear seal leaks to be from the side seals or the cap, not tghe rubber seals, so you would still have that area to deal with, if you did somehow get this "1 piece" seal to fit properly and actually work.

You make one cut and bend it around. 

I agree about the side seals.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on December 21, 2017, 09:11:32 PM
Pushrods hit the rocker arms at 0.680 lift so this is something to watch for when running a solid roller. Couple of ways to fix it so not a big deal unless you don't look for it and then it could cause major problems.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on December 21, 2017, 09:16:12 PM
Are there any special intake gaskets that are 0.030 thick? I've looked at all of the "big name" gaskets and they are all 0.060 but I'm guessing that there might be a few small shops that specialize in FE gaskets that I don't know about. Like Superformance Products?
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on December 21, 2017, 10:36:05 PM
Pushrods hit the rocker arms at 0.680 lift so this is something to watch for when running a solid roller. Couple of ways to fix it so not a big deal unless you don't look for it and then it could cause major problems.
First thing to check is geometry. Stands may be too tall.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on December 21, 2017, 10:38:17 PM
Are there any special intake gaskets that are 0.030 thick? I've looked at all of the "big name" gaskets and they are all 0.060 but I'm guessing that there might be a few small shops that specialize in FE gaskets that I don't know about. Like Superformance Products?
Cometic will make them in several thicknesses. I have .080 on one side and .140 on the other (if I remember correctly).
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on December 22, 2017, 12:16:21 AM
Pushrods hit the rocker arms at 0.680 lift so this is something to watch for when running a solid roller. Couple of ways to fix it so not a big deal unless you don't look for it and then it could cause major problems.
First thing to check is geometry. Stands may be too tall.

Nothing really to check there, it is what it is unless you're going to start machining parts. The rocker arms are bolted right to the head. There are not any spacers or any adjustable parts in the equation. The Trick Flow heads have extra material in that area so it is possible that the Comp rocker arms might handle more lift on a stock head but have an interference issue on the TF head. If that is the case then it could be a problem that people will run into with other rocker arms. Just an FYI for anyone using these parts.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Barry_R on December 22, 2017, 12:34:13 AM
First thing to check is geometry. Stands may be too tall.

With Scott on this.  Could be your picture - but that rocker looks like its at way more than .650 lift.  What does it look like as far as sweep on the valve tip?  A trip across the Bridgeport coupled with a matching shorter pushrod would possibly gain you a bunch of clearance there.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on December 22, 2017, 08:21:16 AM
Pushrods hit the rocker arms at 0.680 lift so this is something to watch for when running a solid roller. Couple of ways to fix it so not a big deal unless you don't look for it and then it could cause major problems.
First thing to check is geometry. Stands may be too tall.

Nothing really to check there, it is what it is unless you're going to start machining parts. The rocker arms are bolted right to the head. There are not any spacers or any adjustable parts in the equation. The Trick Flow heads have extra material in that area so it is possible that the Comp rocker arms might handle more lift on a stock head but have an interference issue on the TF head. If that is the case then it could be a problem that people will run into with other rocker arms. Just an FYI for anyone using these parts.
The FYI is this; everything needs checking. It's part of performance engine building. I'd bet a weeks pay that your rocker stands are too tall. Rocker geometry is one of the most critical parts of your engine. My Sharp rockers need a .220" thick shim to get the geometry right on my factory heads and I've confirmed with at least one other person that it's about the same on their Edelbrock heads. If you don't want to go to the trouble of doing it right, don't blame the parts for not being right. You have the option of making fairly simple adjustments which means yes, you might have to machine some parts.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: BattlestarGalactic on December 22, 2017, 08:42:06 AM
There is NOTHING on a high performance motor that is a "bolt on".  Rocker geometry is always something you have to work on unless it is a stock head, stock cam and stock rockers.

I have a .08? spacer under my Dove HD rockers on my Ed heads.  2018 will be 21 yrs running the same cam/set up without issue.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: TomP on December 23, 2017, 01:09:35 AM
That rocker looks like it is tipping open a .900" lift. Is it possible the rocker stand bosses are meant to use short High Riser style stands?  What do they look like with the valve closed?
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: CaptCobrajet on December 23, 2017, 07:54:23 AM
Trick Flow assessment:  I received a head the other day.  I gave it a quick look all over, and stuck it on the flowbench. 

Firstly, it is cast at the Edelbrock foundry.  It plainly has the "Ef" cast in inside the valve cover, so it is not a Chinese casting.  It is also not a regular Edelbrock core.  It looks different from the regular Ed and the Pro Port casting.  Survival Edelbrocks still have the external look of an Edelbrock, but these are different.  My guess is that they 3-D printed the external design, and Edelbrock probably made a core box from it. 

They have no thread inserts in the intake flange.....not a big deal usually.  They have helicoils in the rocker mounting....a must-have at minimum.  They have NO inserts in the exhaust flange, which is eventually a problem in my opinion, but part of the reason for the relatively low price.  You get what you pay for.

They have 2.19 and 1.625 valves.  The exhaust port maxed out at 220 on my bench.  Mid-range flow is better than the  out-of-the-box regular Edelbrock, but not spectacular.

The intake port flows very good to .550 lift.  It has what I'd call a "Chevy" valvejob.  A little lazy at .100 and .200 lift.  At .300, I got 227 which is starting to look good.  At .400, it went 268, which is very good for an out-of-the-box test.  At .500, it went right at 300......a very good number for the port size, on my bench.  At .550, 312.....then it went turbulent.  At .600, back to 307 and noisy.  Still, for streetable stuff, the intake port is really pretty good.  As far as the vein in the floor, I am not sure......I only know that I have better ports that don't employ such a thing.  Other than the vein, the whole port looks like a pretty close copy of the LS7 GM cnc head that they sell over the GM parts counter......right down to the "hook" in the bowl behind the valve.  It seems to help in places, but it hooks the wrong way in my opinion, and too abrupt.  I think the hook and a little issue in the short turn are the reason it backs up after .550 lift.  Take out the hook, and fix the short turn, and it will flow more at the big lifts and likely lose in the middle, so I guess it depends on your use whether you would want to change it.

Overall, it seems to be a good part for the money.  The springs are not high-end.  I won't use titanium on street stuff.  Point being....I'd probably buy the cheap spring option, and toss that stuff for better parts.  On visual inspection, the valves appear to be good quality, but I'm not sure they will stand solid roller duty.  That would be a question for Trick Flow to answer.   I don't have much bad to say....I think FE aluminum heads need inserts in the exhaust flange, and I think the hardware is fine for a flat-tappet or hydraulic roller.  The steel retainers are heavy, and the Ti are not a good choice for the street. 
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: cammerfe on December 23, 2017, 10:27:21 AM
Thanks for your well-thought-out evaluation. I'm curious---why are you against titanium for the street? (I've been using titanium for fifty years.)

KS
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Barry_R on December 23, 2017, 11:05:49 AM
Thanks for your well-thought-out evaluation. I'm curious---why are you against titanium for the street? (I've been using titanium for fifty years.)

KS

Probably because tool steel weight is within a couple grams and tool steel does not wear and leave tinsel in the oil over time?
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on December 23, 2017, 11:31:13 AM
What the heck is a "Chevy" valve job?
Port backing up is usually an area @ the s/t problem...air becoming detached, going turbulent. Hard to get away from on small ports. I was surprised that my iron heads flowed all the way to .800 without backing up.
The "spiral bowl" seems to be showing up in a lot of ports. AFR is using it a lot. Still haven't found anyone who can tell me decisively what it's for. My best guess is some sort of swirl control (not to induce, but reduce) but it does take up volume in the bowl. I don't know how one could say if it helps or not without removing it and re-testing. Wet flowing might show something. Dyno testing, then track testing would be the only true test. First time I saw something like it was back in the 90s with the GM small block heads but they were trying to induce swirl. Not a performance thing. I agree...this port architecture doesn't seem to need that, or the vein in the floor. As seems to be the case with a lot of heads, they seemed focused on low and lid lift numbers which to a certain extent I can understand. The target customer isn't building a race engine and most of the critical lift and critical flow is in that area and, while I try not to trade those numbers for higher lift numbers, I still believe a port needs to flow out and not back up even above useful lift numbers.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: WConley on December 23, 2017, 02:41:51 PM
Titanium doesn't have the wear resistance of tool steel, so the 1 - 2 gram weight savings over a good tool steel retainer (plus the added cost) doesn't make much sense on a street car.  They will fret to the point of measurably thinning down over the long term. 

Tool steel retainers - Fuggetaboutem and sleep well at night  :)

Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on December 23, 2017, 04:16:42 PM
I've told Trick Flow several times that they could save money and provide an improved product to their customers if they would use tool steel retainers rather than Ti retainers on their heads. They could save at least $100 per set of heads (which they could put in their pocket) and the average guy would be better off with tool steel retainers. But obviously they don't listen to me since they keep shipping the heads with Ti retainers. There is probably more to the story but I don't know what it is. Someone's brother owns the Ti retainer franchise or something? Not a big problem to me, I usually pull the Ti retainers off and sell them to a drag race guy and then replace them with steel or tool steel depending on the application.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on December 23, 2017, 06:40:22 PM
I've told Trick Flow several times that they could save money and provide an improved product to their customers if they would use tool steel retainers rather than Ti retainers on their heads. They could save at least $100 per set of heads (which they could put in their pocket) and the average guy would be better off with tool steel retainers. But obviously they don't listen to me since they keep shipping the heads with Ti retainers. There is probably more to the story but I don't know what it is. Someone's brother owns the Ti retainer franchise or something? Not a big problem to me, I usually pull the Ti retainers off and sell them to a drag race guy and then replace them with steel or tool steel depending on the application.
The Ti retainers are most likely import and VERY inexpensive for them. Not sure of any import tool steel ret's yet but I'm sure they're not far behind. People are starting to get the idea about Ti vs tool steel.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: CaptCobrajet on December 23, 2017, 06:46:37 PM
On the titanium, it definitely has a cycle life, which is directly effected by spring load.  When the titanium gives up, the center will drop out.  The keepers usually stay intact, inside the center.  Usually the last step on the inside starts to crack, and eventually breaks away from the outside part.  If it has not happened to you, you just have not run them to the point of failure.  Tool steel will have a much longer cycle life than titanium.

Scott, I've been working on FE heads for most of my life.  There are FE valvejobs, and there are infinite other ways to make a cutter.  I called it a Chevy valvejob because it looks like widths and angles commonly used on Chevrolet and other aftermarket performance heads.  That stuff seems to work on Chevrolet heads........I just know I have some designs that work better on FE heads.  Some of my junk works on the other stuff, but I created the cutters I use testing only FE heads.  I have several cutters that work for various ideas.  I'd call mine FE cutters, and I call the others Chevy cutters. 

I have flowed the GM LS7 CNC  heads, and they have similar characteristics.  The short turn is part of the "back up", but the hook  contributes also.  If you take the hook out, it will help the .600-up numbers, and it hurts the 3-4-500 numbers.  I am sure the same will happen on this FE port, as they are very much alike.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: C8WE on December 24, 2017, 12:25:20 AM
Interesting. Blair's flow #'s came in right about where I thought they would if we had used a 4.25 bore, assuming that is the bore size Blair did use. I figured ball park add 10cfm. For a street car and even a non full out race car  those flow #'s are great, if they produce on the dyno and or back tire. For the price used in a  street/strip application  they're hard to beat. Out of the box and $500.00 less expensive, they out flow the BBM heads by 20cfm. That is impressive bolt on performance. 

Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: CaptCobrajet on December 24, 2017, 12:48:55 AM
I used a 4.160 plate.  Flow figures from different benches can't tell you much.  On my bench, the .500 and .600 lift numbers are better than the BBM on only the intake port.  The .100-.400 were about the same.  The exhaust on the BBM was better everywhere, and so is the chamber.  The valves and hardware on the BBM are very high quality.  Lots to consider, but the TFS is not a bad value.  There are areas where both shine.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: C8WE on December 24, 2017, 05:24:01 AM
TFR heads out flowed my as recieved BBM heads  everywhere  save .100 intake and the exhaust @.100 and.200 which were basically the same. After porting the BBM heads still do not flow better than the TFR heads except at .600.

 On my 427 build with as recieved BBM heads and a RPM intake the dyno rang up 450 Hp and about 500 Trq.  With hand ported  BBM heads, a proper valve job and Blue Thunder intake it produced 525 Hp and 530 trq.
 It will be interesting to see how the TFR heads perform. They seem like they might be really nice street/race heads.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: My427stang on December 24, 2017, 08:59:05 AM
If anyone has a set handy, can you measure the exhaust port floor and roof location from the bottom header bolt?

Hoping someone came up with a halfway efficient port that can fit both unibody/truck and CJ/early headers.  Would love to be able to run aluminum heads with available headers on a truck!  It would have to be a smaller overall port with a high floor, low roof
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on December 24, 2017, 09:01:24 AM
300cfm is capable of well over 700hp. Low lift ex flow numbers are almost irrelevant other than for cam design.
Does the BBM intake port back up like the TF head?
What valves and guides does BBM use? I know TrickFlow used to use nothing but Ferrea valves, CHE guides, PAC springs and all quality US made retainers and locks. Sounds like they may have changed a few things.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: GJCAT427 on December 24, 2017, 11:05:17 AM
Where can you find the Roush 1 piece seal? looked in the on line catalog didn't see it.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Barry_R on December 24, 2017, 11:26:57 AM
On my 427 build with as recieved BBM heads and a RPM intake the dyno rang up 450 Hp and about 500 Trq.  With hand ported  BBM heads, a proper valve job and Blue Thunder intake it produced 525 Hp and 530 trq.

A 427 with BBM heads should make more than 450 unless it was a really, really mild build.  The closest to stock one I have done was already around 440ish with a set of unported medium risers, a stock 2x4 intake, and a 282S Comp (folks here know that that is a very mild street/strip cam).  A set of BBM, Survival, or TFS heads will be significantly stronger than that with a 30 or 40 (or 50?) cfm airflow advantage from comparable cross section.

I have flowed a set of BBM heads using the same valves and valve job we use on my stuff.  Although BBM is a competitor - the parts appeared to perform quite well and were in the 290s with just a valve job and quick blend - no porting.  Similar to my own stuff in terms of flow - single digit differences throughout the curve.  I see single four barrel street 445s making 500 pretty often with mine and would expect about the same with BBMs. 

I do not know how the TFS will compare yet - they are owned by Summit with obviously a huge budget behind the company.  They are cast at the Edelbrock foundry.  My Edelbrock contact says that they provide a raw casting and TFS does all the finish work themselves.  No idea if and where they did their engine testing - it will be interesting to see some results.  I imagine the publicity will come through Summit's magazine relationships - probably see an article in Hot Rod sometime soon with a build at Westech or Grubbs.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: cammerfe on December 24, 2017, 01:24:30 PM
You split it. 

You cut it with a razor blade and then stretch it over the crankshaft.  Split goes towards the top of the block.
So, are you supposed to cut the real main seal into 2 pieces, or make one cut and bend it to get around the cranks flywheel flange? Either sounds pretty sketchy to me. Most 1 piece seals also use a garter spring on the backside of the seal lip, does this one also have a spring? Personally, I have always believed most FE rear seal leaks to be from the side seals or the cap, not tghe rubber seals, so you would still have that area to deal with, if you did somehow get this "1 piece" seal to fit properly and actually work.

You make one cut and bend it around. 

I agree about the side seals.

Carl Holbrook had a 'stash' of items that were, or had become, hard to get. He had a paper grocery bag half full of 'rawhide' side seals. You soaked them in warm/hot oil and then slid them in place. They'd swell up and did a better job of sealing than anything I ever saw, with the exception of injecting 'Right Stuff'.

KS
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: thatdarncat on December 24, 2017, 01:44:26 PM
Where can you find the Roush 1 piece seal? looked in the on line catalog didn't see it.

I'd give them a call if you're interested. While we were at PRI a couple weeks ago a few of the Roush guys came around to Jay's FE Power booth and showed us the seal first hand, so we know they have it and are selling it. A little later that day a guy came around from the company that actually manufacturers the seal for Roush, also to show us the seal, and he explained that Roush has the exclusive rights to sell the seal for a period of years, so Roush will be the only place you will be able to buy it, at least for the near future. 

I'll add on a side note pet peeve - I'm always amazed at the new products I'll stumble across at something like PRI, and when you ask the Reps if the item is in on their website they reply "not yet". I can understand the issues with getting new products into the actual paper & ink published catalog, but online websites should be able to be updated almost immediately, and have actual pictures of each individual product, but often don't. Companies are missing the marketing bulls-eye.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on December 24, 2017, 10:06:07 PM


Scott, I've been working on FE heads for most of my life.  There are FE valvejobs, and there are infinite other ways to make a cutter.  I called it a Chevy valvejob because it looks like widths and angles commonly used on Chevrolet and other aftermarket performance heads.  That stuff seems to work on Chevrolet heads........I just know I have some designs that work better on FE heads.  Some of my junk works on the other stuff, but I created the cutters I use testing only FE heads.  I have several cutters that work for various ideas.  I'd call mine FE cutters, and I call the others Chevy cutters. 


I guess that's the difference between doing "non denominational" induction development and specializing in one design. I've spent days doing nothing but valve job r&d and I know how little and how much difference different valve jobs can make. It's funny...I used my "Chevy" valve job on my "Ford" heads and it seemed to work real well. What's even funnier, I didn't see anywhere on the cutter where it said "Chevy". ;) I also know for a fact that there will be as many different "perfect" valve jobs as there are FE heads, both after market and factory given all the chamber differences. Not one "Ford" valve job. My guess is that teh "Chevy" valve job I use  will work real well on more than one of those heads.
We'll see.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: gdaddy01 on December 24, 2017, 10:31:21 PM
seems like a lot of comments on here now sounds like the old fe forum
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on December 24, 2017, 11:02:12 PM
On my 427 build with as recieved BBM heads and a RPM intake the dyno rang up 450 Hp and about 500 Trq.  With hand ported  BBM heads, a proper valve job and Blue Thunder intake it produced 525 Hp and 530 trq.

I do not know how the TFS will compare yet - they are owned by Summit with obviously a huge budget behind the company.  They are cast at the Edelbrock foundry.  My Edelbrock contact says that they provide a raw casting and TFS does all the finish work themselves.  No idea if and where they did their engine testing - it will be interesting to see some results.  I imagine the publicity will come through Summit's magazine relationships - probably see an article in Hot Rod sometime soon with a build at Westech or Grubbs.

I don't think Trick Flow has published any dyno results yet for the FE heads. At least I don't see anything on the website or on the Summit site. It usually takes them a few weeks to update their website with the new info so maybe the testing is done but they just haven't published it yet. I should have dyno results within a few weeks. The short block is finished so we just need to bolt on the top end and sort out the EFI. It is taking some extra time since the build has a number of new parts that have never been used before. I think we'll see around 650 hp with this engine but we'll just have to see.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: C8WE on December 25, 2017, 01:18:41 AM
On my 427 build with as recieved BBM heads and a RPM intake the dyno rang up 450 Hp and about 500 Trq.  With hand ported  BBM heads, a proper valve job and Blue Thunder intake it produced 525 Hp and 530 trq.

A 427 with BBM heads should make more than 450 unless it was a really, really mild build.  The closest to stock one I have done was already around 440ish with a set of unported medium risers, a stock 2x4 intake, and a 282S Comp (folks here know that that is a very mild street/strip cam).  A set of BBM, Survival, or TFS heads will be significantly stronger than that with a 30 or 40 (or 50?) cfm airflow advantage from comparable cross section.

I have flowed a set of BBM heads using the same valves and valve job we use on my stuff.  Although BBM is a competitor - the parts appeared to perform quite well and were in the 290s with just a valve job and quick blend - no porting.  Similar to my own stuff in terms of flow - single digit differences throughout the curve.  I see single four barrel street 445s making 500 pretty often with mine and would expect about the same with BBMs. 

I do not know how the TFS will compare yet - they are owned by Summit with obviously a huge budget behind the company.  They are cast at the Edelbrock foundry.  My Edelbrock contact says that they provide a raw casting and TFS does all the finish work themselves.  No idea if and where they did their engine testing - it will be interesting to see some results.  I imagine the publicity will come through Summit's magazine relationships - probably see an article in Hot Rod sometime soon with a build at Westech or Grubbs.

The 427 has a Comp 280H cam .  The goal was to get as close to a 66 Fairlane 427 with  hydraulic lifters for a little bit more street drive-ability.  The BBM block was really impressive and needed minimal machine work. The heads were ordered afterwards and looked  good upon initial inspection but weren't scrutinized as closely as the block. Unfortunately once the heads were installed problems arose with the as shipped valve job. The exhaust valves were sunk .09 deeper than the intake valves. There were other problems with the seat/head fitment as well.  It was later decided that a light hand port and blend would be needed and at that time 1.725 exhaust valves might help it . New seats were installed  for both the intake and exhaust. The Blue Thunder intake was port matched. With the ported heads and BT intake it rang up the 525/530 #s on the first dyno pull and that was good enough for me. There is still more hp in the engine but the car is a blast to drive so I'm happy with it.

Hopefully the next build, a 462 stroker motor, will like the TFR heads. The goal is to build a torque monster highway cruiser motor for my 69 formal roof Torino.

FWIW I was planing on using a set of real  C8WE heads for the 462 build but now i'm leaning towards building a C8WE 428 68- 69 Torino Fastback Ford Drag Team tribute .
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Richard F on December 25, 2017, 07:47:46 PM
You split it. 

You cut it with a razor blade and then stretch it over the crankshaft.  Split goes towards the top of the block.
So, are you supposed to cut the real main seal into 2 pieces, or make one cut and bend it to get around the cranks flywheel flange? Either sounds pretty sketchy to me. Most 1 piece seals also use a garter spring on the backside of the seal lip, does this one also have a spring? Personally, I have always believed most FE rear seal leaks to be from the side seals or the cap, not tghe rubber seals, so you would still have that area to deal with, if you did somehow get this "1 piece" seal to fit properly and actually work.

You make one cut and bend it around. 

I agree about the side seals.

Carl Holbrook had a 'stash' of items that were, or had become, hard to get. He had a paper grocery bag half full of 'rawhide' side seals. You soaked them in warm/hot oil and then slid them in place. They'd swell up and did a better job of sealing than anything I ever saw, with the exception of injecting 'Right Stuff'.

KS

I haven't seen those in years. You are right, in my opinion they sealed better than what's available today.  For that matter, rope seals did pretty good too.

Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on December 26, 2017, 02:44:48 PM
On my 427 build with as recieved BBM heads and a RPM intake the dyno rang up 450 Hp and about 500 Trq.  With hand ported  BBM heads, a proper valve job and Blue Thunder intake it produced 525 Hp and 530 trq.

I do not know how the TFS will compare yet - they are owned by Summit with obviously a huge budget behind the company.  They are cast at the Edelbrock foundry.  My Edelbrock contact says that they provide a raw casting and TFS does all the finish work themselves.  No idea if and where they did their engine testing - it will be interesting to see some results.  I imagine the publicity will come through Summit's magazine relationships - probably see an article in Hot Rod sometime soon with a build at Westech or Grubbs.

I'll probably submit 3 or 4 articles on these heads over the next year. Not sure if I'll have the first article posted or not but I'll be close. I should have the first one sent in by the end of this week.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: plovett on December 27, 2017, 08:20:29 AM
I'll probably submit 3 or 4 articles on these heads over the next year. Not sure if I'll have the first article posted or not but I'll be close. I should have the first one sent in by the end of this week.

I hope we get to an article on a ported version.  That would be interesting.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on January 03, 2018, 04:50:32 PM
This 482 is getting closer to being finished. Got the new Cometic intake gaskets today and the port location was off a little bit so we'll try again. These Cometic gaskets are 0.031 thick rather than 0.060 so everything fits a little tighter. The fit was pretty good but the port alignment was off a bit. Once we get the gasket situation sorted out the engine should go together. Should be on the dyno by the end of next week if it all goes smooth.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on January 11, 2018, 08:24:11 PM
Article published on Hot Rod website today:  http://www.hotrod.com/articles/new-product-overview-ford-fe-heads-trick-flow/
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on January 13, 2018, 01:27:01 PM
The clear covers didn't work out. They aren't long enough to fit over the stands on the Comp rocker arms. And/or the raised rocker stand area on the TF head pushes everything up in the air including the covers. Too bad, I wanted to run a clear cover during the dyno test. I could make one from a valve cover and put a clear top on it but I don't think I will at this point.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: justintyme73 on January 13, 2018, 09:00:47 PM
you need to do a 4 way head shoot out,  out of the box Edelbrock, BBM, Survival, Trick flow.  Bolt em all on that motor with everything else the same and see where the chips fall.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: thatdarncat on January 13, 2018, 11:25:34 PM
The clear covers didn't work out. They aren't long enough to fit over the stands on the Comp rocker arms. And/or the raised rocker stand area on the TF head pushes everything up in the air including the covers. Too bad, I wanted to run a clear cover during the dyno test. I could make one from a valve cover and put a clear top on it but I don't think I will at this point.

They make valve cover spacers for FE's to move the valve covers up, I don't know if that will solve the issue, just a thought if you really want to try them. I think most of the FE parts vendors carry them.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on January 20, 2018, 12:12:33 PM
We needed 0.020 thick intake gaskets to get the proper alignment. Cometic made us the correct gaskets and they changed the port size on their standard gasket to fit the Trick Flow port shape. So going forward people should be able to order the correct Trick Flow gasket from Cometic.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on January 20, 2018, 12:14:53 PM
The Trick Flow heads move the rocker shaft up a bit which changes the valve train geometry. One result is that the pushrods might not clear the intake manifold. We had to extend the pushrod slots by roughly 0.100 in the tunnel wedge intake.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on January 20, 2018, 12:19:48 PM
We also needed special tapered pushrods to clear the bottom of the rocker arms. Smith Bros made the custom pushrods by starting with thick wall 3/8 tubing and then tapering the ends.

So bottom line is if you're going to run a decent amount of lift with the new Trick Flow heads be prepared for some visits to the machine shop.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: amdscooter on January 20, 2018, 12:37:06 PM
^^^ Oddd.. you would think with the heads they are selling they would have engineered in clearance for use with lots of lift.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on January 20, 2018, 01:47:37 PM
The Trick Flow heads move the rocker shaft up a bit which changes the valve train geometry. One result is that the pushrods might not clear the intake manifold. We had to extend the pushrod slots by roughly 0.100 in the tunnel wedge intake.
Hard to tell but almost looks like rocker stands are too short. How did you check rocker geometry?
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on January 22, 2018, 07:07:34 PM
Engine is mounted up on the dyno but we haven't fired it up yet. The dual throttle body setup is taking some extra time to sort out. Lots of little details to attend to.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: winr1 on January 25, 2018, 09:13:53 PM
Andy, whose valve covers are those please ??



Ricky.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on January 26, 2018, 08:33:23 PM
Looks like these Trick Flow heads make good power. The 482 made 700 hp at 6300 rpm and 640 ft-lbs at 5300 rpm. Correction factor was 1%, coolant temp was 180 degrees, we ran 32 and 34 degrees of advance so there might be more power in the heads by stepping up to 35 or 36 degrees. Pump gas unleaded premium fuel. I'll attach a dyno graph and a screen shot of the EFI data log.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: justintyme73 on January 27, 2018, 01:00:12 AM
Sweet!
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: My427stang on January 27, 2018, 03:49:22 AM
A fun ride to be sure!  Think it wanted the timing because it was a little lean? 
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on January 27, 2018, 12:39:19 PM
Here are a couple of video links:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEExZe3eNMI&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te4uSKILr88&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: hbstang on January 27, 2018, 02:30:03 PM
trick flow makes a good product,and great power from that combo on pump gas.thanks for posting!now if AFR were to make FE heads !
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on January 27, 2018, 03:49:29 PM
The Comp rocker arms worked great. We checked the lash after a bunch of dyno pulls and nothing had moved around. The engine is running clean, no trash in the filter and no leaks on the floor. The one piece rear main seal is dry as a bone. Here is a picture of the rocker arms after some dyno pulls.

I should point out that Rich from FAST Man EFI was a big help in setting up the tune. This was the first tune I'd work on for a FAST system so I needed a little help. I sent him the tune I built and he tweaked it a bit and then he got on the phone with me while we were on the dyno and offered some suggestions. The tune was fairly close out of the box but this engine wanted a little more fuel up top and a lot less down low.

Fairly efficient engine from what I can see so far. Used about 300 lbs/hr to make 700 hp so that is 3/7 or .43 BSFC. Probably due to the heart shaped chamber and the tight quench.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on January 27, 2018, 04:21:26 PM
Where are you located?  How about dyno'ing somewhere else for a second opinion?
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on January 27, 2018, 05:47:21 PM
Where are you located?  How about dyno'ing somewhere else for a second opinion?
How many dynos would it take to make the numbers legit to you?
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on January 27, 2018, 05:57:19 PM
What if that engine made 800 hp?  Would you have believed that too?

To be straight up about it, there's nothing logical about the results of that engine.   All off-the-shelf parts, pump gas, with 300 cfm heads, with a 1% correction?  You're telling me that engine made 695 hp uncorrected?  I'd buy the results if he told me he sprayed 50-75 on it. 

That engine would make about 625 on the dyno I use.....or on Barry's dyno.....

Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on January 27, 2018, 06:53:13 PM
The owner is happy and isn't interested in taking the engine to another dyno.

1% correction factor, 180 degree water temp, fuel flow seems correct for the power. Dyno deadweighted in spec so where is the error? I have the log files from the EFI system for the dyno pulls, they seem fine to me. The engine just makes good power. Not really a huge surprise, I figured it would make 650 but the heads work a little better than I thought. It has a good intake on it and good dyno headers so that helps a bunch.

Build one yourself, maybe you'll be surprised.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Barry_R on January 27, 2018, 07:35:55 PM
Nice engine.

As much as it may come off "wrong" to some folks I am going to have to agree with Brent here and say that those numbers are really, really strong for that mild a build.  It's making 1.45 horsepower per cube, somewhere around 2.3 horsepower per cfm (using Blair's flow numbers), and about 1.33 pounds of torque per cubic inch.

All of these ARE achievable numbers - but not very common for any engine that by your description is on its first round of tuning.  I rarely see that level of performance from any FE engine that just got assembled with a first effort cam selection, first go around with a set of new heads, first round of tuning on an EFI system, and non-optimized timing.  Takes me quite a bit of work to approach that level using highly developed parts I have a lot of history with.  The electric water pump is worth about a dozen horsepower in my testing.

The dyno data and videos do show some sort of anomaly that might be worth investigating.  The inlet air temperature on the dyno screen shows 48 degrees F, which is pretty close to outside air in that area that week.  Using weather data for that area, the correction factor may well have been at zero or 1% with those inputs.  However the inlet air temperature on the snapshot of the data log from the FAST system shows 61 degrees F during a pull.  That variance would give about a =/-2% variance in correction.  They might have a sensor location or calibration issue.  I assume that the data log is an early effort since it shows a 24% fuel correction and still very lean compared to your target (although the lean number is closer to what I run for best power...)

Account for the 2% and about a dozen for the water pump & you get into the 670s for power and 615ish torque at +/- 1.27/cube - - - still really strong numbers and closer to what I would expect to see from a well thought out build with very good parts.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on January 27, 2018, 07:45:26 PM
Barry is always better at stating things more diplomatically.   I have neglected to say "Nice engine" and I apologize for that.  It is a nice piece and I'm sure your customer will be pleased with it. 

A lot of us have been playing with FE's long enough to have used pretty much every head/intake/displacement combination out there at least once.  I was able to predict your hp peak rpm by 100 rpm (I said 6200), when you posted your cam specs on one of the other threads.  It's because there are certain "trends" with different parts and combinations.

I would encourage you to look through the dyno results section of Jay's forum and see what the trends are for a 700 hp engine.  There are 4 right off the bat that I see....

1.  Jay's 511 combination, with 350/265 cfm Edelbrock heads, "heavily ported" Victor intake, with a 266/272 @ .050" solid roller camshaft.  It made 706 hp @ 6400 rpm with 636 lb-ft at around 5000 rpm.  11.75:1 compression.

2.  Tim Meyer's 511 combination, with ~360 cfm CNC ported BBM heads, a BBM  Tunnel Wedge, and a Bullet solid roller.  I was involved in the camshaft selection for that one, but I can't recall the specs off hand....I would imagine 260's/270's.  It made 700 hp @ 6700 and about 625 lb-ft at around 5000 rpm. 

3.  My 465 cubic inch Tunnel Port, with ~370 cfm hand ported Tunnel Port heads, a 2x4 Tunnel Port single plane intake, and a solid roller 260/270 @ .050" with .740" lift, 12:1 compression.  It made 696 hp @ 7000, with 588 lb-ft of torque.

4.  My 512 cubic inch Tunnel Port, with ~370 cfm hand ported Tunnel Port heads, a 2x4 Tunnel Port single plane intake, and a solid flat tappet 270/280 @ .050", with about .630" lift.  It made 723 hp @ 7000 with 657 lb-ft @ 4500. 

All of those engines were very specifically built, with basically all custom parts, some featuring some very specialized porting, custom camshafts, etc.  All but one was race gas oriented.

For someone to come up with a 6300 rpm peak 482 with out of the box 310 cfm heads that backup at .600" lift, along with a shelf cam, pump gas, etc., it just doesn't "jive".  Your 650 hp guess  was maybe a tad optimistic, but not really unrealistic.  700 hp is unrealistic. 
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: CaptCobrajet on January 27, 2018, 09:55:17 PM
You guys should keep in mind that my flowbench is not known to be the least bit "happy".  Most any head that  comes in here with a set of numbers from somewhere else is humbled a little.  I have owned this machine long enough to get pretty accurate ideas on potential.  I am surprised by those numbers with that camshaft and that compression ratio, but I'm not going to bash this feller or his effort.  That must be a really good piece throughout to turn out those results.  That inlet air can certainly effect the correction.  We made a huge box to seal off our eight-stack stuff from the room air......
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on January 27, 2018, 10:04:14 PM
Maybe andyf is just a better engine builder.
Maybe this was just one of those combinations that all came together.
Heads that back up at 28" might work really well in a running engine. I know of a few that do.
Flow benches and dyno's shouldn't be "happy" or "stingy". If they're calibrated right, then they are what they are.
JMO
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on January 28, 2018, 07:00:02 AM
Maybe andyf is just a better engine builder.
Maybe this was just one of those combinations that all came together.
Heads that back up at 28" might work really well in a running engine. I know of a few that do.
Flow benches and dyno's shouldn't be "happy" or "stingy". If they're calibrated right, then they are what they are.
JMO

Both of those "maybes" could very well be.  That's why I suggested a different dyno, but usually when customers see 700 hp, they roll with it.

If you think dyno operation only consists of hanging a weight on the bar and calibrating, next time you dyno something, put the weather station right by one of the headers and see what happens.

I don't know how many times I've seen dyno guys or engine builders say, "The numbers are right, it was calibrated."  I would venture to say that 98% of "happy dyno numbers" come from the result of inlet air temp being pulled from somewhere it shouldn't.  Even something as simple as opening a man door near the dyno room can skew numbers.

By no means was it my intent to bash, so I apologize publicly if it came across like that.  This is just a very atypical result from a collection of off-the-shelf parts.

Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: CaptCobrajet on January 28, 2018, 10:15:20 AM
It is a known fact that all flow benches and all dynos do not give the same numbers.  Unfortunately, we live in an imperfect world.  "Calibrated" sounds good, but reality is that there are going to be differences.  Too many methods and variables in the processes.  Both are tools.  It is possible to draw conclusions from familiar equipment and trends over time.  Internet comparisons are somewhat pointless.  When more folks test new parts, trends emerge that allow accurate conclusions.  More info will come, and it may very well validate what andyf posted.  Time will tell.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: KMcCullah on January 28, 2018, 11:27:28 AM
Well this stiches it for me. I'm weldin' veins in my Pro-Ports.....
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: 1968galaxie on January 28, 2018, 11:39:00 AM
Very nice build indeed.

I would have thought that the FE crowd would be overjoyed that a new cylinder head offering would show so much promise and deliver?

Who would guess that a modern approach to port design (raised short turn, angled floor approach, better combustion chamber, etc) would
make more power than over sized "old school" cylinder heads?

I thought that flow quality and proper port sizing was FAR more important than raw flow numbers?
Blair has mentioned many times that most offerings for the FE had ports that are way too large.

This was a very nice build indeed - well done.
Nice too see a streetable 700 hp FE. Better head, less camshaft and CR required.

Cheers

Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on January 28, 2018, 11:50:25 AM
Until someone who regularly builds FEs tries a set or Andy builds another FE to compare, there’s really not anything that can be said about the performance of that head.

As Blair pointed out, trends need to be made on one specific dyno, as they are meant to be incremental measuring tools and not comparators.

The only problem with that is that the majority of internet users are not dyno operators or professional engine builders.  So if they see one builder make 500 hp with a particular combo, another builder make 500 hp with a similar combo, and then another builder come in with 650 hp on a similar build, then they either think that there’s something magical about the builder or the parts that are used.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on January 28, 2018, 01:49:20 PM
Nice engine.

As much as it may come off "wrong" to some folks I am going to have to agree with Brent here and say that those numbers are really, really strong for that mild a build.  It's making 1.45 horsepower per cube, somewhere around 2.3 horsepower per cfm (using Blair's flow numbers), and about 1.33 pounds of torque per cubic inch.

All of these ARE achievable numbers - but not very common for any engine that by your description is on its first round of tuning.  I rarely see that level of performance from any FE engine that just got assembled with a first effort cam selection, first go around with a set of new heads, first round of tuning on an EFI system, and non-optimized timing.  Takes me quite a bit of work to approach that level using highly developed parts I have a lot of history with.  The electric water pump is worth about a dozen horsepower in my testing.

The dyno data and videos do show some sort of anomaly that might be worth investigating.  The inlet air temperature on the dyno screen shows 48 degrees F, which is pretty close to outside air in that area that week.  Using weather data for that area, the correction factor may well have been at zero or 1% with those inputs.  However the inlet air temperature on the snapshot of the data log from the FAST system shows 61 degrees F during a pull.  That variance would give about a =/-2% variance in correction.  They might have a sensor location or calibration issue.  I assume that the data log is an early effort since it shows a 24% fuel correction and still very lean compared to your target (although the lean number is closer to what I run for best power...)

Account for the 2% and about a dozen for the water pump & you get into the 670s for power and 615ish torque at +/- 1.27/cube - - - still really strong numbers and closer to what I would expect to see from a well thought out build with very good parts.

Barry, you are correct about the 48 degree inlet air on the dyno console and the 61 degree air from the MAT. However, I think the effect is the opposite of what you suggested. The dyno correction factor is looking at the cold air being pulled into the dyno room. The temp probe is next to the inlet screen coming in from outside so that is why it is reading 48 degrees. And the correction factor is based off of the 48 degrees. The 61 degrees is the temp inside the intake manifold. That is the MAT sensor and the MAT sensor is not hooked up to the dyno so it is not correcting for 61 degree air. If we corrected for 61 degree air then the correction factor would be higher than 1% and the engine would be making more than 700 hp.

If you study the EFI sensors you'll get some clues as to why the engine made 700 hp. The MAT is in the low 60s and the MAP is close to 100 kpa. So the air inside the intake manifold is cold and dense. Basically perfect conditions.

I don't think there are any calibration errors with the dyno setup. If someone knows better then let me know and we'll fix it. Like I said before, the load cell is calibrated and the correction factor is conservative rather than aggressive. We're using outside air temp rather than hot air. We're running the engine at 180 degree temp rather than making cold water "power" runs. We have good dyno headers on this engine which is worth some power. Most FE engine builds I see have passenger car headers on them which cost some power.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: 1968galaxie on January 28, 2018, 02:34:03 PM
Until someone who regularly builds FEs tries a set or Andy builds another FE to compare, there’s really not anything that can be said about the performance of that head.

As Blair pointed out, trends need to be made on one specific dyno, as they are meant to be incremental measuring tools and not comparators.

The only problem with that is that the majority of internet users are not dyno operators or professional engine builders.  So if they see one builder make 500 hp with a particular combo, another builder make 500 hp with a similar combo, and then another builder come in with 650 hp on a similar build, then they either think that there’s something magical about the builder or the parts that are used.

Just because you are a professional engine builder doesn't mean you are the GOD of FE engines either.
Belittle anyone who isn't a professional engine builder - you are slamming quite a few of us on these FE forums.
I take offense to the suggestion that only professional engine builders know what works and what doesn't.
In a previous post you mention several FE builds that you were involved with that made 700+ HP. Good for you.
You are also comparing a modern FE head port layout (similar in some aspects to a custom sized pro-port head) with 50 year old tunnel ports etc...
Do you really think a new revised port will not make an difference?
You must be smarter than that.
You are the one speaking from ignorance - you slam the build, yet you have no experience with these new castings.

My 2 cents worth.


Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Barry_R on January 28, 2018, 02:49:47 PM
Its really not so much what the factor "is" as the apparent fact that their is something "different".

Does not mean the output data is absolutely wrong - but does merit investigation.

When I am running an xFI where I have that level of control and data access I try to use the multiple sensors as something of a cross check - I have O2 in at least on collector (try to accommodate both) on dyno and one for the FAST system, and I use two each coolant temp and inlet temp sensors.  Its not unusual to see a minor difference between the sensor sets, but a dozen degrees is a lot.  Not sure on your setups(s), but some software will capture the temp set at the beginning of a pull and not change through the duration of that run.  In one event I was in a competitor found that they could "heat soak" the air temp sensor by shutting off for a few minutes and then gaining into an immediate fire up and pull, gaining a bit of correction...

Despite best efforts, most every small shop dyno installation has some variables that have to be accommodated for.  As an example, mine has a 90 degree turn in the exhaust behind the water tower, and the pipes then travel sideways through the cell to reach an outside wall, where they have another 90 degree bend and a pair of semi-truck mufflers and +/- 15 feet of vertical tubing to exit.  Installations in more of a rural area might just poke straight out the back wall with zero restriction and no mufflers at all. 

Being in Detroit, where the outside air temps are below freezing half the year, my installation breaths "shop air" (I crack an outside door during pulls) instead of running outside air.  Breathing 15 degree temp outside air would not be realistic for any performance engine.  Even with correction factors in play I see some clear variances when testing in August versus December....doubtless the reason that high dollar OE and NASCAR installations are controlled atmospherics as well.

Does not make might right or the other guy's wrong - - they are just different and as Blair said - best for comparison on the same cell s changes are made.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Barry_R on January 28, 2018, 02:53:18 PM
1968 Galaxie

I ignored your earlier dig.  But you can freely compare the new TFS head to mine or the BBM and all three use a modern chamber and well developed port layout that could be considered modern.  Rick Alexander and Rob McQuarie were largely responsible for the as cast BBM layout.  Mine was initially developed with the help of John Marcella.  I do not know who did the TFS, but those "other guys" ain't dumb by any measure.

Considering that uninvolved third party folks have flowed all of them within ten numbers of each other - comparison to similar builds using each are fair for comparison.  This particular build stands out not by the likely or expectable single digit percentages but by nearly fifteen percent and that is always going to garner critical attention.  I do not recall an as cast (290-300 cfm) Survival headed 482 to 527 cube build that got beyond the low 600s.  If Blair or Brent or Kuntz or Kraft popped in with a 700+ HP build running similar parts I might either call them out or just make a "TQ per cube" comment - - and I have done both depending on my mood that day.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on January 28, 2018, 03:44:40 PM
Barry, I don't think you understand what I'm saying. 13 degrees difference between cold air coming into the dyno room and the temp inside the intake seems very realistic to me. The dyno temp probe is measuring the outside air. It was 48 degrees that day. The MAT is measuring the air temp inside the intake. It is 61 degrees inside the engine. Seems perfectly logical and reasonable to me. In fact, it seems a little colder inside the intake than I would've guessed seeing how the engine is 180 degrees and the intake manifold is probably more than 100 degrees.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: plovett on January 28, 2018, 03:52:28 PM
Sounds to me like the professional engine builders need to get their hands on a set of these Trick Flow heads, build an engine, and test it on the dyno of their choice.

More data points is more better.  :)

JMO,

paulie

Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on January 28, 2018, 03:52:59 PM
Until someone who regularly builds FEs tries a set or Andy builds another FE to compare, there’s really not anything that can be said about the performance of that head.

As Blair pointed out, trends need to be made on one specific dyno, as they are meant to be incremental measuring tools and not comparators.

The only problem with that is that the majority of internet users are not dyno operators or professional engine builders.  So if they see one builder make 500 hp with a particular combo, another builder make 500 hp with a similar combo, and then another builder come in with 650 hp on a similar build, then they either think that there’s something magical about the builder or the parts that are used.

Just because you are a professional engine builder doesn't mean you are the GOD of FE engines either.
Belittle anyone who isn't a professional engine builder - you are slamming quite a few of us on these FE forums.
I take offense to the suggestion that only professional engine builders know what works and what doesn't.
In a previous post you mention several FE builds that you were involved with that made 700+ HP. Good for you.
You are also comparing a modern FE head port layout (similar in some aspects to a custom sized pro-port head) with 50 year old tunnel ports etc...
Do you really think a new revised port will not make an difference?
You must be smarter than that.
You are the one speaking from ignorance - you slam the build, yet you have no experience with these new castings.

My 2 cents worth.

Is this Perry by chance?   

To answer your question, no, I don't think a revised port will make a difference.   

To address your other point, if you'll note, I also included Jay's engine with professionally ported Edelbrock heads and an engine with CNC ported BBM heads in my 4 examples. 

Let me make this really clear:  this head has nothing at all, in any way, shape, or form, in comparison with a set of professionally ported Pro Port heads.  To be honest, it's just another 300 cfm head with modern combustion chambers.

It wasn't meant to be a dig, but engine builders do (and should) have an advantage when it comes to data and knowledge.   We see a lot of parts, a lot of combinations, and a lot of dyno time.   I know it's fun to jump on the bandwagon and believe that there are new, magical parts coming out:  but reality just doesn't play out that way.   





Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on January 28, 2018, 05:00:39 PM
Whats funny here is that you can give me 5 different BB Chevy heads, all falling within the same category, cc's, chamber volumes, flow numbers, etc...and I'll show you 5 completely different combinations on the same short block. I guess that's not possible with the FE?
Here's a news flash...the cylinder heads do NOT make the build. It's the COMBINATION that either works, or doesn't. I see some of these "pro built" FE's and their numbers and I think, really?? Not impressive.
What I get really tired of is the "this is an FE...it's "special"..." BS. Or, "I'm an FE specialist, so no one else could possibly build a better FE than me"...or "if it's not on my dyno, it can't be right". I think a few of you guys are just a little full of yourself.
Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes to me. No real evidence of any error or misdoing on the builder's part...just  a bunch of jealous "FE specialists" who this guy just poked right in the eye.  :o
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on January 28, 2018, 05:03:36 PM
Its really not so much what the factor "is" as the apparent fact that their is something "different".


Despite best efforts, most every small shop dyno installation has some variables that have to be accommodated for.  As an example, mine has a 90 degree turn in the exhaust behind the water tower, and the pipes then travel sideways through the cell to reach an outside wall, where they have another 90 degree bend and a pair of semi-truck mufflers and +/- 15 feet of vertical tubing to exit.  Installations in more of a rural area might just poke straight out the back wall with zero restriction and no mufflers at all. 

Being in Detroit, where the outside air temps are below freezing half the year, my installation breaths "shop air" (I crack an outside door during pulls) instead of running outside air.  Breathing 15 degree temp outside air would not be realistic for any performance engine.  Even with correction factors in play I see some clear variances when testing in August versus December....doubtless the reason that high dollar OE and NASCAR installations are controlled atmospherics as well.


Sounds like your exhaust might be compromised a bit. The dyno cell where I test does a lot of SBC circle track engines. These are usually 420 inch engines with high compression, solid rollers and good heads that make 700 to 750 hp. By changing the way the exhaust system was routed we were able to gain about 20 hp on that type of engine. So if your exhaust system is compromised you might be giving up some power on your builds.

I agree on the super cold air. I don't test if the CF is more than 5%. Fortunately the shop is located at 150 feet elevation and the weather tends to be moderate. So even in the middle of winter the CF rarely gets much below 1.00 and in summer it is rarely over 1.05.

BTW, I'm used to internet guys not believing the numbers. I had a 470 inch Mopar that made 600 hp and everyone thought that was a reasonable build. I spent 18 months, ran 120 dyno pulls and spent about $20K on parts and then that engine made 775 on pump gas. At that point a whole bunch of people started saying the numbers were wrong and the dyno was happy. None of these people had helped me with the engine or paid for the parts or spent 120 dyno pulls in the cell but they all "knew" the numbers were wrong.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: 1968galaxie on January 28, 2018, 05:09:19 PM
Pauly is 1000% correct.
Perhaps the pro builders should build an engine with the new heads before all the dis-belief.
I also didn't see a 14% correction factor on this build - only 1% I recall.

Good grief since when was raw port flow become the only factor in HP output?
Blair has shown 330 cfm heads properly designed will out power 370 cfm tunnel ports.

Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on January 28, 2018, 05:22:50 PM
Whats funny here is that you can give me 5 different BB Chevy heads, all falling within the same category, cc's, chamber volumes, flow numbers, etc...and I'll show you 5 completely different combinations on the same short block. I guess that's not possible with the FE?
Here's a news flash...the cylinder heads do NOT make the build. It's the COMBINATION that either works, or doesn't. I see some of these "pro built" FE's and their numbers and I think, really?? Not impressive.
What I get really tired of is the "this is an FE...it's "special"..." BS. Or, "I'm an FE specialist, so no one else could possibly build a better FE than me"...or "if it's not on my dyno, it can't be right". I think a few of you guys are just a little full of yourself.
Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes to me. No real evidence of any error or misdoing on the builder's part...just  a bunch of jealous "FE specialists" who this guy just poked right in the eye.  :o

Scott, this would be an EXCELLENT time for you to build your FE and hop around to a few different dynos to see the difference.

If I would have to guess, there’s about a 10-12% spread between all the dynos represented here.

Absolutely no sour grapes here, but just a recognition that things are not the same between testing equipment. 

What an opportunity for you to gain some experience!

Perry, if you think that these heads are night and day difference from the other modern heads that are available, then I will refer you back to my thoughts about engine builders being privy to information that the average public is not privy to.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on January 28, 2018, 05:24:09 PM
Here is a link to my 775 hp 470 inch Mopar:  http://www.hotrod.com/articles/dyno-tested-vacuum-pump-help-engine-make-power/

I think it is an interesting comparison. The Mopar uses Trick Flow heads right out of the box. Their flow numbers are a tad better than the FE numbers but not a huge difference. The Mopar has the same compression ratio and runs on unleaded premium also. It is a single 4 bbl setup so the intake is not as good as the FE, but the intake has been ported by Wilson and is very, very nice.

If I used some of the same tricks on the FE I'd pick up another 25+ hp. Vacuum pump, race pan, synthetic oil, belt drive, etc.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on January 28, 2018, 05:40:07 PM
Whats funny here is that you can give me 5 different BB Chevy heads, all falling within the same category, cc's, chamber volumes, flow numbers, etc...and I'll show you 5 completely different combinations on the same short block. I guess that's not possible with the FE?
Here's a news flash...the cylinder heads do NOT make the build. It's the COMBINATION that either works, or doesn't. I see some of these "pro built" FE's and their numbers and I think, really?? Not impressive.
What I get really tired of is the "this is an FE...it's "special"..." BS. Or, "I'm an FE specialist, so no one else could possibly build a better FE than me"...or "if it's not on my dyno, it can't be right". I think a few of you guys are just a little full of yourself.
Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes to me. No real evidence of any error or misdoing on the builder's part...just  a bunch of jealous "FE specialists" who this guy just poked right in the eye.  :o

Scott, this would be an EXCELLENT time for you to build your FE and hop around to a few different dynos to see the difference.

If I would have to guess, there’s about a 10-12% spread between all the dynos represented here.

Absolutely no sour grapes here, but just a recognition that things are not the same between testing equipment. 

What an opportunity for you to gain some experience!

Perry, if you think that these heads are night and day difference from the other modern heads that are available, then I will refer you back to my thoughts about engine builders being privy to information that the average public is not privy to.
Brent, unlike some of you, I don't get real hung up on dyno numbers. I know what to expect out of certain combinations based on math and physics, not voodoo black magic that the "average guy" isn't privy to. That's a bunch of BS. This is why you would never see me in an EM contest. As far as hopping form dyno to dyno, from what I understand if it's not YOUR dyno, or Barry's dyno, it doesn't count. I have found an excellent dyno to use for my projects. He doesn't care about impressing people but I guarantee you he has a Rolodex on his desk with the phone number for anyone you've ever heard of in the engine building world, and can call them at home. And he's a Ford guy. Used to do overflow work for Kasse. Does a lot of FE's. Never find him o the internet either.
I'm building my iron headed 395 ci pump gas hyd roller FE. I'm even going to test two different intakes...an Edelbrock RPM with a big 4150 and a med. riser with a pair of 1850's but I'm not about to run around chasing dyno numbers to try and prove I'm not sure what point...

Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on January 28, 2018, 05:47:21 PM
Here is a link to my 775 hp 470 inch Mopar:  http://www.hotrod.com/articles/dyno-tested-vacuum-pump-help-engine-make-power/

I think it is an interesting comparison. The Mopar uses Trick Flow heads right out of the box. Their flow numbers are a tad better than the FE numbers but not a huge difference. The Mopar has the same compression ratio and runs on unleaded premium also. It is a single 4 bbl setup so the intake is not as good as the FE, but the intake has been ported by Wilson and is very, very nice.

If I used some of the same tricks on the FE I'd pick up another 25+ hp. Vacuum pump, race pan, synthetic oil, belt drive, etc.
That Peterson pump combo is nice.
We need you to take a look at some of the builds we do.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: jmlay on January 28, 2018, 06:56:13 PM
All,

I do not post much but I visit the forum daily to read about new and old parts, new techniques, old techniques, read about others builds, etc... Over the last few months all of this bickering has put a damper on the forum. Might I suggest all of the bickering be moved to some other form of communication where all others are not exposed.

Andy,

Very interesting build thanks for sharing your experience. Sorry, to drag your post down.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: plovett on January 28, 2018, 07:03:54 PM
Honestly, I don't see any of this as bickering.  It's just honest and intense discussion.   I think it's good.  I did notice that the only professional engine builder that has actually put his hands on these heads is withholding final judgement, pending more testing.  That seems logical to me.

paulie
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on January 28, 2018, 07:15:54 PM
Whats funny here is that you can give me 5 different BB Chevy heads, all falling within the same category, cc's, chamber volumes, flow numbers, etc...and I'll show you 5 completely different combinations on the same short block. I guess that's not possible with the FE?
Here's a news flash...the cylinder heads do NOT make the build. It's the COMBINATION that either works, or doesn't. I see some of these "pro built" FE's and their numbers and I think, really?? Not impressive.
What I get really tired of is the "this is an FE...it's "special"..." BS. Or, "I'm an FE specialist, so no one else could possibly build a better FE than me"...or "if it's not on my dyno, it can't be right". I think a few of you guys are just a little full of yourself.
Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes to me. No real evidence of any error or misdoing on the builder's part...just  a bunch of jealous "FE specialists" who this guy just poked right in the eye.  :o

Scott, this would be an EXCELLENT time for you to build your FE and hop around to a few different dynos to see the difference.

If I would have to guess, there’s about a 10-12% spread between all the dynos represented here.

Absolutely no sour grapes here, but just a recognition that things are not the same between testing equipment. 

What an opportunity for you to gain some experience!

Perry, if you think that these heads are night and day difference from the other modern heads that are available, then I will refer you back to my thoughts about engine builders being privy to information that the average public is not privy to.
Brent, unlike some of you, I don't get real hung up on dyno numbers. I know what to expect out of certain combinations based on math and physics, not voodoo black magic that the "average guy" isn't privy to. That's a bunch of BS. This is why you would never see me in an EM contest. As far as hopping form dyno to dyno, from what I understand if it's not YOUR dyno, or Barry's dyno, it doesn't count. I have found an excellent dyno to use for my projects. He doesn't care about impressing people but I guarantee you he has a Rolodex on his desk with the phone number for anyone you've ever heard of in the engine building world, and can call them at home. And he's a Ford guy. Used to do overflow work for Kasse. Does a lot of FE's. Never find him o the internet either.
I'm building my iron headed 395 ci pump gas hyd roller FE. I'm even going to test two different intakes...an Edelbrock RPM with a big 4150 and a med. riser with a pair of 1850's but I'm not about to run around chasing dyno numbers to try and prove I'm not sure what point...

If he's not on the internet, then he's already a wiser man than me. 

My suggestion for you to dyno hop was just an answer to:

1.  Your comment that all dynos that are "calibrated" should be the same. 
2.  Your comment that "I see some of these pro-built FE's, and I think....really??  Not impressive."

Dyno results are all over the map, and as much as you have the right to look at a "pro-built FE" and say, "Really?  Not impressed.", I have a right to look at bogus numbers and say, "Really?  I'm not buying it."  What's good for the goose is good for the gander. 

My statement about dyno variation was not exaggerated.   In internet-land, engine builders are judged by the horsepower of the engine.  Is it fair for the guy who has a tight pump?  Does the guy who has the loose pump deserve to be called a better builder?

I'll be straight up:  the dyno I use had a hardware change a few years ago and some of the data collection equipment was moved into the dyno cell.  My stuff instantly began making about 5% more corrected horsepower.   In the end, it's not my dyno, so I can't do anything about it, so I just began posting non-corrected numbers on the forums, along with weather data.   

The EMC is nice because all engine builders are on the same pump, so that variable is removed.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: jayb on January 28, 2018, 07:18:48 PM
This thread is treading dangerously close to not being "civil" discourse, per the forum rules.  Please don't make me lock it, guys...
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on January 28, 2018, 07:36:57 PM
Honestly, I don't see any of this as bickering.  It's just honest and intense discussion.   I think it's good.  I did notice that the only professional engine builder that has actually put his hands on these heads is withholding final judgement, pending more testing.  That seems logical to me.

paulie

The guy who built this 482 is a professional engine builder and he is a FE guy. He has a FE in his shop truck and a 428 CJ in his Mustang. He has been building FE engines for 30 years. The world is larger than just the guys who log into this corner of the internet.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: plovett on January 28, 2018, 07:52:51 PM
Honestly, I don't see any of this as bickering.  It's just honest and intense discussion.   I think it's good.  I did notice that the only professional engine builder that has actually put his hands on these heads is withholding final judgement, pending more testing.  That seems logical to me.

paulie

The guy who built this 482 is a professional engine builder and he is a FE guy. He has a FE in his shop truck and a 428 CJ in his Mustang. He has been building FE engines for 30 years. The world is larger than just the guys who log into this corner of the internet.

I didn't mean that the guy who built your 482 wasn't a professional engine builder.   I just meant that of the professional engine builders that had posted here on this thread about these heads, only one had actually touched them that I know of.

I'm not making any final judgements yet.  The dyno results are impressive, especially given the relatively mild cam and compression ratio.  I'm not on anybody's side.  I'm just interested in what we find out about these heads. 

paulie
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Voodoojl on January 28, 2018, 08:16:41 PM
Sounds like we need an aftermarket cylinder head comparo.  Stock out of the box with no mods or porting.  Put them all on the same dyno mule.  I know a guy who has a lot of experience with that comparo stuff. He even wrote a great book with all results...Just sayin... ;)
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on January 28, 2018, 08:29:18 PM
Sounds like we need an aftermarket cylinder head comparo.  Stock out of the box with no mods or porting.  Put them all on the same dyno mule.  I know a guy who has a lot of experience with that comparo stuff. He even wrote a great book with all results...Just sayin... ;)

Thanks. I assume you're talking about me and my book?  https://www.amazon.com/How-Build-Max-Performance-Mopar-Big-Blocks/dp/1613250924/

Oh, maybe you mean Barry and his book? Or Jay and his book?
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on January 28, 2018, 08:35:57 PM
Sounds like we need an aftermarket cylinder head comparo.  Stock out of the box with no mods or porting.  Put them all on the same dyno mule.  I know a guy who has a lot of experience with that comparo stuff. He even wrote a great book with all results...Just sayin... ;)
The problem with this is every head's flow curve would require a different cam profile to get the most out of it. So now you;re looking at testing different head/cam combo's to make the test "fair".
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: CaptCobrajet on January 28, 2018, 08:37:52 PM
I don't think the posted results are impossible, based on what I found when I flowed the head and looked at the intake port design.  I think if the engine makes that kind of power, give or take 50 hp, it must be a pretty good piece.  I just finished a Hilborn injected 429 cube FE with my Street Pro Ports that made 716 hp with a .525 lift cam, so this 482 is not unheard-of power........and before anyone cries foul about Morgan's dyno, I tested the engine on Tony Bischoff's Superflow 902.

I have a pair of those heads going on a 390 that I plan to sell, using my .525 baby roller.  I am not sure yet if I am going to fix a few things about the ports, or run them as-is.  I'll post it in the dyno section when it happens.

I don't know andyf, or the person who did the 482, and I am not about to say it is not a real number.  With that said, as I have said before.....we race on racetracks, not dynos.  This is apparently a street 482, and I'd safely say that it will make the owner happy.  I say if all involved, and most importantly the guy who laid down his coins are happy, then all is well!

Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: fekbmax on January 28, 2018, 08:45:28 PM
.....we race on racetracks, not dynos.
[/quote]

  ;D
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: wowens on January 28, 2018, 09:43:58 PM
Aren't no inserts at exhaust bolts a problem ?
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Katz427 on January 28, 2018, 09:53:02 PM
I thank Andy for sharing this engine build. One thing I was wondering about was the BBM tunnel wedge intake. The large ports did not seem to hurt. I know it is not like driving to see how throttle response is, but the manifold seems to work at least for a combination like this 482.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on January 29, 2018, 12:11:36 AM
I thank Andy for sharing this engine build. One thing I was wondering about was the BBM tunnel wedge intake. The large ports did not seem to hurt. I know it is not like driving to see how throttle response is, but the manifold seems to work at least for a combination like this 482.

We won't know throttle response until in the car but we did run blip tests on the dyno to check AFR against TPS rate of change. All of that looked good and the engine responds very quickly. In a heavy Galaxie with highway gears it could be an issue. I wouldn't be surprised if we have to drop the camshaft size one step to make the car really responsive. We won't know that for several months.

I do think the intake manifold is absolutely key to these power numbers. I was blown away with the 1 kPa delta between baro and MAP. On my single carb engines we would kill for 1 kPa delta. Usually it is 4 or 5 kPa with a 2000 cfm throttle body. Also, the intake port alignment was perfect between the intake manifold and the cylinder heads. It took a fair amount of work to get that perfect alignment but I think it is important enough to work on it until it is correct. A little bit of mismatch there can cost 10 or 15 hp on an engine like this.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on January 29, 2018, 11:25:18 AM
I just ordered a pair of them to look at. Got a 390 build coming up that I can use them on.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: turbohunter on January 29, 2018, 01:34:32 PM
Also, the intake port alignment was perfect between the intake manifold and the cylinder heads. It took a fair amount of work to get that perfect alignment but I think it is important enough to work on it until it is correct. A little bit of mismatch there can cost 10 or 15 hp on an engine like this.
That's an interesting statement. Intuitively it makes sense. However Jay did some testing that showed a mismatch (probably to a point) doesn't matter. Which in my little pea brain makes no sense. I would figure a perfect match would always work better. But you cant argue with data gathered off of the same manifold.
Not poopooing just trying to understand.
Look at the end of post#83 here, after all the EFI stuff.
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=4760.75
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on January 29, 2018, 02:28:38 PM
Andy, did you flow/pour those heads before you installed them?
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on January 29, 2018, 02:42:56 PM
Also, the intake port alignment was perfect between the intake manifold and the cylinder heads. It took a fair amount of work to get that perfect alignment but I think it is important enough to work on it until it is correct. A little bit of mismatch there can cost 10 or 15 hp on an engine like this.
That's an interesting statement. Intuitively it makes sense. However Jay did some testing that showed a mismatch (probably to a point) doesn't matter. Which in my little pea brain makes no sense. I would figure a perfect match would always work better. But you cant argue with data gathered off of the same manifold.
Not poopooing just trying to understand.
Look at the end of post#83 here, after all the EFI stuff.
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=4760.75
You'd be surprised at how many really high end engines have an intentional port mismatch between intake and head. Of course this comes from a lot of testing both dyno and track, but none the less. I learned a long time ago that intuition will get you in trouble when it cones to induction.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: jayb on January 29, 2018, 02:46:49 PM
Not to mention factory engines.  The 428 Cobra Jet had medium riser ports in the intake manifold, and low riser head ports.  There's about a 3/8" step down from the floor of the intake to the floor of the cylinder head.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: KMcCullah on January 29, 2018, 03:17:47 PM
Did anybody happen to catch the port misalignment on the Y block that Kaase won EMC with a few years ago? One of the pics in the linked article below show it. It wasn't pretty but didn't seem to hurt much.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/you-wont-believe-this-engine-is-60-years-old/
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on January 29, 2018, 03:19:21 PM
Andy, did you flow/pour those heads before you installed them?

Nope. Changed valve springs, checked guide clearance, shaved the intake side a little bit, cleaned them up and bolted them on. Zero port work. I have to run them "out of the box".
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on January 29, 2018, 03:42:01 PM
How come?  Was this build part of an advertisement?
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on January 29, 2018, 04:01:50 PM
I'd be rally interested in getting some cross sectional information on these heads. The valve size, depending on throat dia. is almost dead on for Andy's combination at his rpm for peak power. IMO that's critical. A lot of these FE builds I see with smaller or similar displacement and "pro ported" heads have way more intake valve than they need. That's a sure way to kill power in most combinations. Ports that are "too big" in cross sectional area are going to be lazy and will respond much better to a smaller cam than larger. On my C6 heads I measure the minimum cross section to be right at the short turn @ ~ 2.3 sq in. which is way bigger than my 395 needs @ 6500. It needs closer to 2.09 sq in. and about 2.4 sq in. of valve (throat) area. I was conservative with the 2.05 valve and only went with that for the better valve job. With it's 90% throat it's right at 2.58 sq in. This won't help the power for my 390, but it can be addressed with the cam. These heads can easily feed a 427 (with a 4.25 bore) to >6000rpm. Start porting on some of these, put great big valves in them and then on top of that, throw a 270-280 degree cam in them and you have a recipe for poor results. I'm guessing these TF heads don't have near the cross sectional area that the others do and I can say that right off the bat with that vein in the floor. Good flow, small(er), fast ports and a reasonable cam. There's your recipe for good power especially in the rpm range he ran it.
I did a 509 pump gas BB Chev years ago that would have done very well in the EM competition. Didn;t know it till later of course, but it had a set of AFR heads with small 3 sq in. cross section intake ports which were WAY big for the combination and a 2.25" intake valve sized right for the combination. The engine was pump gas, 11:1, hyd roller and made 764hp @ 6200 nad 732 lbs/ft @ 4900 with a 4150 carb. It made over 700 lbs/ft from 4100 through 5500 and was still making 600 lbs/ft @ 6500. The heads flowed in the 380 range. Here's the rub; the cam was 244/248 @ .05, .649/.629 on a 107. This combination pushed a 3550# all steel 67 Chevelle to 9.4x's at over 140 mph. I don't wan to hear "Chevy heads better than Ford", "this is an FE not a BB Chev" blah blah blah. When it comes to the physics and airflow dynamics between the two, there aint enough difference to cry foul, especially where cams are concerned. The 250-260 duration range for Andy's cam seems about spot on for his combination.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on January 29, 2018, 05:05:24 PM
That is good insight Scott and I think you are spot on. I was pretty sure I had the cam timing correct for the build but I did not know if the street roller lobes would be a good match for these heads. I took a gamble on that since I figured the 1.76 rocker arms would speed them up enough to work. I'm sure there is power left on the table with this build but it is going into a street car so I don't think anyone involved really cares. The street roller lobes should be a good fit for intended use of the engine.

On my Mopar dyno mules I spend a fair amount of time trying different lobe profiles and different rocker arm ratios to see what works. Sometimes I find something that works and sometimes I don't. Billy Godbold just sent me a cam with some new lobes for my 470 engine so we'll get that on the dyno in a week or two to see if it picks up some power. The more aggressive lobes sometimes pick up power and sometimes they don't. I'm not smart enough to know when they'll work and when they won't. I did an infamous article for Car Craft last year where I spent a ton of time (and money) testing all sorts of different rocker arm ratios and had zero power difference between them. That was a case where the engine did not want more aggressive valve action or more lift. It just didn't care.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on January 29, 2018, 05:39:14 PM
That is good insight Scott and I think you are spot on. I was pretty sure I had the cam timing correct for the build but I did not know if the street roller lobes would be a good match for these heads. I took a gamble on that since I figured the 1.76 rocker arms would speed them up enough to work. I'm sure there is power left on the table with this build but it is going into a street car so I don't think anyone involved really cares. The street roller lobes should be a good fit for intended use of the engine.

On my Mopar dyno mules I spend a fair amount of time trying different lobe profiles and different rocker arm ratios to see what works. Sometimes I find something that works and sometimes I don't. Billy Godbold just sent me a cam with some new lobes for my 470 engine so we'll get that on the dyno in a week or two to see if it picks up some power. The more aggressive lobes sometimes pick up power and sometimes they don't. I'm not smart enough to know when they'll work and when they won't. I did an infamous article for Car Craft last year where I spent a ton of time (and money) testing all sorts of different rocker arm ratios and had zero power difference between them. That was a case where the engine did not want more aggressive valve action or more lift. It just didn't care.
The thing is, at every degree of lift there is a demand that we're trying to meet. Peak demand is usually somewhere around 76* ATDC. If you meet the demand, there's no need for more lift. At that point the valve simply has to continue on it's path...you can't just stop it suddenly, hold it there, and then close it when you need to but more lift from that point, thinking you're going to get more air into the engine, is a myth. You can open a valve too fast.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on January 29, 2018, 06:04:52 PM
It will be interesting to see what the "right" cam would be for these heads. I picked the cam before the heads were shipping so there wasn't any data to go on. I had a rough idea of how well they would flow but I didn't have any engineering information about the heads. I think my guess ended up pretty close to the mark but I'm sure guys like you can do a better job once you spend some time with the heads and see what they really want. My goal was to have the first engine running with the Trick Flow heads on them so I had to order all of my parts before the heads even shipped.

I did talk to a few people about the cam profile. I sent Barry an email on the cam and he gave me some feedback. I used the Rick Jones model and I usually build the engine in PipeMax as well. So if you do all of that you usually end up in the right zip code.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on January 29, 2018, 07:22:23 PM
It will be interesting to see what the "right" cam would be for these heads. I picked the cam before the heads were shipping so there wasn't any data to go on. I had a rough idea of how well they would flow but I didn't have any engineering information about the heads. I think my guess ended up pretty close to the mark but I'm sure guys like you can do a better job once you spend some time with the heads and see what they really want. My goal was to have the first engine running with the Trick Flow heads on them so I had to order all of my parts before the heads even shipped.

I did talk to a few people about the cam profile. I sent Barry an email on the cam and he gave me some feedback. I used the Rick Jones model and I usually build the engine in PipeMax as well. So if you do all of that you usually end up in the right zip code.
I'd say you had the right address... 8)
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on February 01, 2018, 11:04:00 AM
Got my set in yesterday.  Intake ports measure 169.8cc.  Chambers measure 69.8cc.  No inserts in the exhaust manifold/header bolt holes. 

Will flow one as soon as I get time. 
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: 390fe on February 01, 2018, 05:48:44 PM
anyone have dyno results on a 390 with these heads
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: 390fe on February 01, 2018, 05:54:07 PM
any dyno results on a 390 with trick flow heads
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: CaptCobrajet on February 01, 2018, 07:30:46 PM
Not yet, but coming.  I have one that is almost complete.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on February 02, 2018, 06:42:42 AM
I've got a 390 build in the works that mine will go on, but it will be a few months before it's completed. 
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: plovett on February 02, 2018, 08:10:48 AM
Thanks for sharing, Blair and Brent.  It will be enlightening to see your results.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Royce on February 02, 2018, 09:20:49 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/dyno-tested-we-make-700-hp-with-trick-flow%E2%80%99s-new-fe-heads/ar-BBIzZ64 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/dyno-tested-we-make-700-hp-with-trick-flow%E2%80%99s-new-fe-heads/ar-BBIzZ64)
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: mbrunson427 on February 02, 2018, 10:34:27 AM
Not yet, but coming.  I have one that is almost complete.

Did you decide to mess with the port at all? Or just bolt on?
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: turbohunter on February 02, 2018, 11:16:10 AM
Check out the look down the port through the manifold. Interesting.

Weird, I couldn't get all the pics to come up in the link Royce posted. Try this.
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/dyno-tested-make-700-hp-trick-flows-new-fe-heads/
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: machoneman on February 02, 2018, 02:41:31 PM
Very cool! 1.46 hp/CID. 1.33 lbs/ft per CID. Smokin!

I did note though the intake port looks to heavily CNC'ed, like to the max. Point being what would be the cost of such heavily worked heads?
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: chilly460 on February 02, 2018, 02:50:28 PM
That's the surprising bit, they're ~$1900 or so depending on which springs/retainers you want with them. 
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: sumfoo1 on February 04, 2018, 06:29:41 PM
I'm as interested in that comp rocker setup. But I can't find it anywhere.

Used to be t&d or bust on an engine with this kind of power lift etc.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on February 04, 2018, 06:36:17 PM
I'm as interested in that comp rocker setup. But I can't find it anywhere.

Used to be t&d or bust on an engine with this kind of power lift etc.

Both Jegs and Summit have the Comp rocker arms:  http://www.jegs.com/i/COMP-Cams/249/19046/10002/-1
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on February 04, 2018, 06:51:19 PM
Used to be t&d or bust on an engine with this kind of power lift etc.

The Comp setup does nothing to insure you won't pull a rocker stand stud out.   Power and lift doesn't necessitate the rocker arm system.   Spring pressure and rpm will be the biggest deciding factors. 

As a matter of fact, the T&D street rockers won't insure that you won't pull a stud out either.  The T&D race setup is your only bet against higher spring pressures.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: BattlestarGalactic on February 21, 2018, 09:45:50 AM
Just got info on the latest build at my local shop.   464ci 428 with TF heads, .630 hyd roller(246 @ 50), 11:1 pump gas with I think a Victor Jr, tri Y headers.  610 hp at 6200, 580 ft/lb at 4500.  Nice streetcar motor.

Compared to:
My 462ci, .63 flat tappet, 12.5:1, tunnel wedge, 625 hp at 6500, 590 ft lb at 4000 rpm with 20 yr old Eds with hand port job that flows 280/220(same as Barry's heads).

Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: chilly460 on February 21, 2018, 02:00:46 PM
Nice build.  It compares pretty well with the better BBM/Survival builds done with bowl blended heads, pretty much as expected. 

If the Tri-Ys are normal 1 3/4" size, suspect it would pick up a bit with more primary, maybe 10-15hp SWAG. 
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: BattlestarGalactic on February 21, 2018, 02:14:51 PM
Ya, they thing a bigger tube would help.  They'd like to try it with a tunnelwedge too.  I get the run around every weekend when I stop in and they want me to put a set on the wagon motor.  Cha-ching......along with a roller cam!  I like my dump truck motor just the way it is.

Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: chilly460 on February 21, 2018, 06:07:43 PM
Yeah, not sure spending $3200 - 3500 or so between heads, lifters, pushrods, cam....and maybe going .2sec faster if you're lucky makes much sense  :)
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: AlanCasida on February 21, 2018, 11:16:23 PM
Just got info on the latest build at my local shop.   464ci 428 with TF heads, .630 hyd roller(246 @ 50), 11:1 pump gas with I think a Victor Jr, tri Y headers.  610 hp at 6200, 580 ft/lb at 4500.  Nice streetcar motor.

Compared to:
My 462ci, .63 flat tappet, 12.5:1, tunnel wedge, 625 hp at 6500, 590 ft lb at 4000 rpm with 20 yr old Eds with hand port job that flows 280/220(same as Barry's heads).
Was there any mention of having to use the very thin Cometic intake gaskets? Using a 0.020" intake gasket would be a little disconcerting to me.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: BattlestarGalactic on February 22, 2018, 08:35:27 AM
Yeah, not sure spending $3200 - 3500 or so between heads, lifters, pushrods, cam....and maybe going .2sec faster if you're lucky makes much sense  :)

Lucky for me I never fell in that hole of "I have to go FASTER FASTER!!"

Alan, I have to ask about the head gasket.  Don't really know.  Last weekend they were going to dyno it but had two lifters that would not pump up.   They had the intake off and waiting on replacement lifters.  Got a text the other evening that they made pulls and was given the results.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: machoneman on February 22, 2018, 10:52:14 AM
I'm not sure this HR article on the new TFS heads was posted here. Oh, well, if so here it is again......


http://www.hotrod.com/articles/dyno-tested-make-700-hp-trick-flows-new-fe-heads/
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on February 22, 2018, 12:34:09 PM
That is a nice article!
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Felonious79 on April 27, 2018, 08:18:33 AM
Any updates on these heads as of late?  I have a set bolted to my Survival built 445 short block that will hopefully be going on the dyno in the next couple weeks.  Waiting on the machine shop to mill my intake. These shops can’t ever seem to get you your parts quick enough. 
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: AlanCasida on April 27, 2018, 08:44:02 PM
Any updates on these heads as of late?  I have a set bolted to my Survival built 445 short block that will hopefully be going on the dyno in the next couple weeks.  Waiting on the machine shop to mill my intake. These shops can’t ever seem to get you your parts quick enough.
You are the second person I have read about that has had to have their intake milled or use very thin intake gaskets to get their intake to fit properly. I wonder if this is a common theme with these heads. I have a set that I haven't bolted on yet. I will probably try a couple of different intakes but I don't want to have them milled to fit the heads. I guess time will tell.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Felonious79 on April 28, 2018, 07:37:21 AM
Yeah, I think it’s a sure bet to need to mill the intake. I have a Edlebrock rpm intake and have to mill it .045”.  With out the mill, I would have needed a .020 gasket which would never last on a street motor.  The guy that built that 700hp motor went with the .020” gasket. I did have the Edelbrock rpm heads bolted on at first and my intake fit perfectly, but I found that I needed to shim my valve train up .030”!!  I wasn’t cool with that, so head swap it was.  Choose your poison I suppose.  I am using the new comp cans gold rocker setup btw. 
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on April 28, 2018, 07:58:19 AM
Any updates on these heads as of late?  I have a set bolted to my Survival built 445 short block that will hopefully be going on the dyno in the next couple weeks.  Waiting on the machine shop to mill my intake. These shops can’t ever seem to get you your parts quick enough.
You are the second person I have read about that has had to have their intake milled or use very thin intake gaskets to get their intake to fit properly. I wonder if this is a common theme with these heads. I have a set that I haven't bolted on yet. I will probably try a couple of different intakes but I don't want to have them milled to fit the heads. I guess time will tell.

Alan, it's not the heads.  It's a fairly common theme to have to cut the intake with any heads or setup.  I have to cut the flanges on about 75% of the FE's I build.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: AlanCasida on April 28, 2018, 08:35:24 AM
Any updates on these heads as of late?  I have a set bolted to my Survival built 445 short block that will hopefully be going on the dyno in the next couple weeks.  Waiting on the machine shop to mill my intake. These shops can’t ever seem to get you your parts quick enough.
You are the second person I have read about that has had to have their intake milled or use very thin intake gaskets to get their intake to fit properly. I wonder if this is a common theme with these heads. I have a set that I haven't bolted on yet. I will probably try a couple of different intakes but I don't want to have them milled to fit the heads. I guess time will tell.


Alan, it's not the heads.  It's a fairly common theme to have to cut the intake with any heads or setup.  I have to cut the flanges on about 75% of the FE's I build.

OK, Thanks Brent.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: winr1 on April 28, 2018, 12:21:58 PM
What does this mean ??


" The raised rocker arm position on these heads solves some geometry problems "


Versus other FE heads that is




Ricky.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Machspeed on April 30, 2018, 08:37:38 AM
I spoke to a Trick Flow rep this weekend at a local show and found out you can get these heads without the CNC porting but they have to be special ordered and will be bare with smaller ports of course.They consider it as a porters head(similar to pro ports). If anyone is interested I will be happy to share the rep's contact information. He said they didn't plan to offer these without porting but he could get it pushed through.   
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: mbrunson427 on April 30, 2018, 09:55:58 AM
I spoke to a Trick Flow rep this weekend at a local show and found out you can get these heads without the CNC porting but they have to be special ordered and will be bare with smaller ports of course.They consider it as a porters head(similar to pro ports). If anyone is interested I will be happy to share the rep's contact information. He said they didn't plan to offer these without porting but he could get it pushed through.

Looked into this a few months back. The pro-ports look to have water jackets in a preferred location. I wondered if the trick flow head was just a pro-port CNC'd to their specification, but it doesn't look that way. It wasn't a super easy comparison because of course the ports were different from each other (and you always wonder how reliable your sonic tester is being).
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on April 30, 2018, 02:20:54 PM
What does this mean ??


" The raised rocker arm position on these heads solves some geometry problems "


Versus other FE heads that is




Ricky.
Most FE heads, when using a roller tip rocker, need the stands raised about .200" to get the rocker geometry anywhere near right. Or more accurately I should say that any FE head using the factory rocker stand pad height...needs to be raised.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Barry_R on April 30, 2018, 06:06:07 PM
Most FE heads, when using a roller tip rocker, need the stands raised about .200" to get the rocker geometry anywhere near right. Or more accurately I should say that any FE head using the factory rocker stand pad height...needs to be raised.

Need to qualify that statement with some valve length/installed height/cam lift bookends...
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on April 30, 2018, 06:11:04 PM
And which rocker arms............
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on May 01, 2018, 07:41:14 AM
Most FE heads, when using a roller tip rocker, need the stands raised about .200" to get the rocker geometry anywhere near right. Or more accurately I should say that any FE head using the factory rocker stand pad height...needs to be raised.

Need to qualify that statement with some valve length/installed height/cam lift bookends...
It wasn't a statement that needs qualifying, it was a general response to a general question.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Posi67 on May 01, 2018, 03:36:01 PM
What does this mean ??


" The raised rocker arm position on these heads solves some geometry problems "


Versus other FE heads that is




Ricky.
Most FE heads, when using a roller tip rocker, need the stands raised about .200" to get the rocker geometry anywhere near right. Or more accurately I should say that any FE head using the factory rocker stand pad height...needs to be raised.


While a valid item to check I think as a "General" response this is a bit misleading. I've run Erson rollers on CJ, Dove and Edelbrock heads without raising anything and don't have geometry issues. Have also run Comp/Dove std and HD Rollers on the same heads with no problem or raised stands. Maybe I got lucky or possibly because my blocks are decked and the heads were all cut at least .030 the aforementioned spacers weren't required. I'm not smart enough to figure that out however do agree with Barry and Brent that more clarification as to components used would be helpful to us home engine builders. JMO   
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: WerbyFord on May 08, 2018, 10:39:28 PM
Just got info on the latest build at my local shop.   464ci 428 with TF heads, .630 hyd roller(246 @ 50), 11:1 pump gas with I think a Victor Jr, tri Y headers.  610 hp at 6200, 580 ft/lb at 4500.  Nice streetcar motor.

Compared to:
My 462ci, .63 flat tappet, 12.5:1, tunnel wedge, 625 hp at 6500, 590 ft lb at 4000 rpm with 20 yr old Eds with hand port job that flows 280/220(same as Barry's heads).

Nice to see yet ANOTHER choice for FE aluminum heads!
remember in the old 1969 "Muscle Parts" the hot choice, er, the ONLY choice, was stock 428cj iron.

Based on the build at Larry's local shop, the Gonkulator puts these new TFS heads about +7 Torq and +25 Power better than BBMs. Which is basically a tie given the lack of data and less than a 3% average difference. Both look like excellent heads. Makes me think about buying a set so I can break my 28-spline axles.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on May 09, 2018, 07:13:37 AM
What does this mean ??


" The raised rocker arm position on these heads solves some geometry problems "


Versus other FE heads that is




Ricky.
Most FE heads, when using a roller tip rocker, need the stands raised about .200" to get the rocker geometry anywhere near right. Or more accurately I should say that any FE head using the factory rocker stand pad height...needs to be raised.


While a valid item to check I think as a "General" response this is a bit misleading. I've run Erson rollers on CJ, Dove and Edelbrock heads without raising anything and don't have geometry issues. Have also run Comp/Dove std and HD Rollers on the same heads with no problem or raised stands. Maybe I got lucky or possibly because my blocks are decked and the heads were all cut at least .030 the aforementioned spacers weren't required. I'm not smart enough to figure that out however do agree with Barry and Brent that more clarification as to components used would be helpful to us home engine builders. JMO
How do you check your geometry?
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Posi67 on May 09, 2018, 02:24:14 PM

How do you check your geometry?

I check for the usual items. The roller tip is well positioned on top of the valve, the pushrod cups don't interfere with the bottom of the rockers and pushrod holes in the intake have enough clearance. I try to avoid anything that involves the use of Math. Keep in mind I'm just a home builder much like the majority here so I leave the technical stuff to those who know what they are doing.

In the past 12 years of racing I've bent a total of 2 pushrods and broken zero rockers. Did lots of other damage but rocker geometry wasn't the issue. Over rev and valve float cause trouble. 


Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on May 09, 2018, 03:36:39 PM

How do you check your geometry?

I check for the usual items. The roller tip is well positioned on top of the valve, the pushrod cups don't interfere with the bottom of the rockers and pushrod holes in the intake have enough clearance. I try to avoid anything that involves the use of Math. Keep in mind I'm just a home builder much like the majority here so I leave the technical stuff to those who know what they are doing.

In the past 12 years of racing I've bent a total of 2 pushrods and broken zero rockers. Did lots of other damage but rocker geometry wasn't the issue. Over rev and valve float cause trouble.
So basically you guess -and I don't mean that insultingly. Geometry is all about math. Rocker geometry is so simple, yet so completely misunderstood and ignored throughout the industry and one the most important things there is when assembling a performance engine. I put it right there with bearing clearances and degreeing your cam. The internet is a great place and has really opened my eyes to how much terrible mis-information there is regarding pushrod length and rocker geometry, even by so called "experts" and "professionals". For decades, Comp Cams put in print, in their catalog, probably the absolute WORST technical information and diagram when it came to measuring for pushrod length but hey, it's Comp Cams, so it has to be right, right? A lie repeated enough times becomes the truth. People invest thousands of $$ in a performance engine, buy a custom cam, custom rockers, custom pushrods, and have NO idea whether or not their rocker geometry is even close. The engine's performance DEPENDS on that geometry being correct in order to get the most accurate information from the cam to the valve, yet it gets passed off as almost trivial. The first and BIGGEST misconception and most repeated lie about rocker geometry is this; proper geometry is when the roller tip sweep pattern is in the center of the valve. That is absolutely wrong and you're almost guaranteed to have improper geometry if you use that as your guideline. Another misconception is that you use pushrod length to establish proper geometry. Pushrod length is a result of proper geometry. Shaft rockers can be set up with the heads on the bench. You don;t even need a pushrod. All you need to know is your net lift @ the valve. Proper geometry is this; when the centerline of the rocker is at 90* to the valve at mid lift. The center line of the rocker being an imaginary line that passes through the center of the rocker pivot, and through the center of the roller tip. When this imaginary line is 90*to the valve stem at mid lift, you have proper "mid lift" geometry. There are those who prefer a slight variation to this but for the most part, this is the industry standard. What this accomplishes is to give the minimum amount of roller sweep over the valve tip. Contrary to popular opinion, it is not being off centered that causes guide side loading and excessive wear, but it is excessive roller sweep on the valve tip that causes premature guide wear. Of course, in a perfect world we would like to have minimum s weep and be perfectly centered on the valve tip but that rarely occurs. Being centered is secondary to proper geometry and having the minimum amount of sweep. I use the center third of the valve tip as my "safe" working range for the sweep pattern. If it's within that range, it's good to go. If outside that range, then we have to do something about it and start looking at options.
My 390, basically all stock as far as deck height, cyl head milling, head gasket thickness and valve length needed .220" spacers to get the geometry right with Sharp roller tip rockers. That's not even close!!!! And yes, when I got the rockers where they should be, I had to clearance them for the pushrod cups. Oh well. That's what you have to do sometimes. I talked to Randy Jr at PRI about this and he seemed receptive to the suggestion of raising the stands. Of course, he's probably got bigger fish to fry so I'm not sure where that landed, but he said he had heard the same thing from several "FE" people.
Here's a diagram to help visualize what I'm talking about afa "mid lift" geometry;

(http://www.performanceboats.com/gallery/data/500/rocker_geometry1_1_.jpg)

Here's a short video I did for stud mount rockers but the principles apply to shafts as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5is9BsH5OU&feature=youtu.be

Because I work in cylinder head and induction development, rocker geometry is a real pet peeve of mine. There is power to be had or lost with it. There is longevity and reliability to be had or lost with it, and it's about as simple as it gets to do it right. I've had many, many, professional engine builders call me to thank me after watching my video, telling me how much sense it made and how easy it was, and that they had been doing it "wrong" their whole life.
I will edit to add: this all above only applys to roller tip rockers. The factory shoe type rocker has an entirely different geometry and NONE of this works with that type of rocker.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Posi67 on May 09, 2018, 06:26:34 PM
Yes... I guess and so far haven't had any negative experience except for the potential to lose some power. I don't have the luxury of a shop full of equipment, the education to use it, money for experimenting, money to pay someone who does or even proper parenting when I was young. Just a bracket racer who makes due.

I do however appreciate your post and information because I am one of those guys who still lives in the 70's. I'll re-read as well as watch the video and hopefully absorb something. I do have several sets of rockers and some spare heads I can practice on. If and when I do, I'll let you know what I find. Thanks for the input. 
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: 66FAIRLANE on May 09, 2018, 10:24:10 PM
Ted Eaton also has a good explanation on his site.

http://www.eatonbalancing.com/2007/12/10/rocker-arm-geometry/
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: winr1 on May 10, 2018, 12:35:10 AM
How much power is to be made on the mid lift deal if I may ask ??


What if one were to use a factory hydraulic or adjustable rocker arm ??
Is the geometry off and is there power to be made ??


 A few questions our home builders might be interested in




Ricky.


Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on May 10, 2018, 10:07:23 AM
If you are handy with calculus you can figure out the location that gives you the lowest combination of load and travel. The Mid Lift setup gives the minimum travel across the valve which is fine for low load springs. But if you have high load springs, the load at full lift is much greater than it is at low lift so you might want to reduce the amount of sideways travel near full load.

Mid Lift gives you max travel at full load which might not be good for things. It takes some advanced math to figure out but you can minimize the product of load and travel by moving the shaft down. You do end up with more travel across the valve, but that extra sideways travel occurs at the beginning of the lift cycle when the rocker arm is lightly loaded.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: mbrunson427 on May 10, 2018, 11:03:22 AM
If you are handy with calculus you can figure out the location that gives you the lowest combination of load and travel. The Mid Lift setup gives the minimum travel across the valve which is fine for low load springs. But if you have high load springs, the load at full lift is much greater than it is at low lift so you might want to reduce the amount of sideways travel near full load.

Mid Lift gives you max travel at full load which might not be good for things. It takes some advanced math to figure out but you can minimize the product of load and travel by moving the shaft down. You do end up with more travel across the valve, but that extra sideways travel occurs at the beginning of the lift cycle when the rocker arm is lightly loaded.

I'd like to understand this more. What Scott's last post and his video illustrate make a ton of sense, but then if you're building something a bit more high-end and high lift, this also makes sense.

I may have to do the math and build a spreadsheet....I know you guys love my spreadsheets.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on May 10, 2018, 11:26:25 AM
If you are handy with calculus you can figure out the location that gives you the lowest combination of load and travel. The Mid Lift setup gives the minimum travel across the valve which is fine for low load springs. But if you have high load springs, the load at full lift is much greater than it is at low lift so you might want to reduce the amount of sideways travel near full load.

Mid Lift gives you max travel at full load which might not be good for things. It takes some advanced math to figure out but you can minimize the product of load and travel by moving the shaft down. You do end up with more travel across the valve, but that extra sideways travel occurs at the beginning of the lift cycle when the rocker arm is lightly loaded.
This is Jesel's philosophy for their rocker geometry and why I won't use their rockers. The problem with this is that it changes the acceleration rate of the valve and if I want to do that, I'll do it with the cam. I don't see the load differences being worth the trade off and I want the rocker to be as neutral as possible. I've had this conversation with just about every engine builder I come in contact with since I'm so intrigued by this and I can say even at NHRA/IHRA Pro Stock level, there are those who prefer mid lift, and those who prefer what you describe. Bottom line here is either are very close to one and other and unless you have the exact rocker height for your combination, and the pushrod side has the same perfect geometry, you're going to end up with a variation. Using mid lift is easy and basic and will get you a whole lot closer than "centering the pattern on the valve tip". There are also load dynamics that play into all this that take a little deeper understanding of what's going on but for the most part I prefer to keep it simple. At full lift, there may be zero load on the rocker and under (lifter) acceleration, there may be way more than spring load on the rocker. An ex rocker is trying to open the valve against cylinder pressure. Just other things to consider.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on May 10, 2018, 11:32:18 AM
How much power is to be made on the mid lift deal if I may ask ??


What if one were to use a factory hydraulic or adjustable rocker arm ??
Is the geometry off and is there power to be made ??


 A few questions our home builders might be interested in




Ricky.
Mid lift geometry doesn't apply to factory shoe type rockers in the same manner as it does a roller tip. Completely different dynamic through the motion of the rocker.
Power to be made on the mid lift deal...all of it. Power to be lost by NOT using mid lift, or a derivative of, depends on too many variables. Not just about power, but also about reliability and longevity. Poor rocker geometry will wear guides out in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on May 10, 2018, 02:06:07 PM
If you are handy with calculus you can figure out the location that gives you the lowest combination of load and travel. The Mid Lift setup gives the minimum travel across the valve which is fine for low load springs. But if you have high load springs, the load at full lift is much greater than it is at low lift so you might want to reduce the amount of sideways travel near full load.

Mid Lift gives you max travel at full load which might not be good for things. It takes some advanced math to figure out but you can minimize the product of load and travel by moving the shaft down. You do end up with more travel across the valve, but that extra sideways travel occurs at the beginning of the lift cycle when the rocker arm is lightly loaded.

I'd like to understand this more. What Scott's last post and his video illustrate make a ton of sense, but then if you're building something a bit more high-end and high lift, this also makes sense.

I may have to do the math and build a spreadsheet....I know you guys love my spreadsheets.

Yeah you can find the answer with a spreadsheet. Just have to iterate it a few times. The answer will be around 2/3 lift for the point where the rocker arm is perpendicular to the valve. If you have an old Chevy Power book you'll find an explanation on the low mount theory. The Chevy engineers figured this out a long time ago and it is what they recommended back in the day. I think Jesel adopted the Chevy engineering theory but I don't know for sure. You would have to ask Wayne why he did what he did.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on May 10, 2018, 02:11:24 PM
I used to make and sell a scrub measurement tool for setting up the rocker arm geometry. Sales were so slow on the tool that I just stopped making them. Most guys don't care enough about the subject to actually buy a tool. But if anyone wants to make one of their own here is what it looked like.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: jayb on May 11, 2018, 08:32:01 AM
That is a cool tool, Andy, I think I might just make one of those myself!
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: scott foxwell on May 11, 2018, 09:00:15 AM
I used to make and sell a scrub measurement tool for setting up the rocker arm geometry. Sales were so slow on the tool that I just stopped making them. Most guys don't care enough about the subject to actually buy a tool. But if anyone wants to make one of their own here is what it looked like.
I've made several using different retainers. That's really the best way to set up shaft rockers. Doing the "math" and measuring off the shaft, trying to find the valve height, etc. can be a bit "challenging".

(http://www.performanceboats.com/gallery/data/500/medium/Kaczan1.jpg)
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on May 12, 2018, 03:10:33 PM
That is a cool tool, Andy, I think I might just make one of those myself!

Jay, I have some of the parts on hand to make more of those tools. If you're interested I could send you a few sets of parts and you could make your own tools.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: jayb on May 12, 2018, 03:35:42 PM
Thanks Andy, I will PM you on that - Jay
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Tommy A on May 12, 2018, 10:20:36 PM

How do you check your geometry?

I check for the usual items. The roller tip is well positioned on top of the valve, the pushrod cups don't interfere with the bottom of the rockers and pushrod holes in the intake have enough clearance. I try to avoid anything that involves the use of Math. Keep in mind I'm just a home builder much like the majority here so I leave the technical stuff to those who know what they are doing.

In the past 12 years of racing I've bent a total of 2 pushrods and broken zero rockers. Did lots of other damage but rocker geometry wasn't the issue. Over rev and valve float cause trouble.
So basically you guess -and I don't mean that insultingly. Geometry is all about math. Rocker geometry is so simple, yet so completely misunderstood and ignored throughout the industry and one the most important things there is when assembling a performance engine. I put it right there with bearing clearances and degreeing your cam. The internet is a great place and has really opened my eyes to how much terrible mis-information there is regarding pushrod length and rocker geometry, even by so called "experts" and "professionals". For decades, Comp Cams put in print, in their catalog, probably the absolute WORST technical information and diagram when it came to measuring for pushrod length but hey, it's Comp Cams, so it has to be right, right? A lie repeated enough times becomes the truth. People invest thousands of $$ in a performance engine, buy a custom cam, custom rockers, custom pushrods, and have NO idea whether or not their rocker geometry is even close. The engine's performance DEPENDS on that geometry being correct in order to get the most accurate information from the cam to the valve, yet it gets passed off as almost trivial. The first and BIGGEST misconception and most repeated lie about rocker geometry is this; proper geometry is when the roller tip sweep pattern is in the center of the valve. That is absolutely wrong and you're almost guaranteed to have improper geometry if you use that as your guideline. Another misconception is that you use pushrod length to establish proper geometry. Pushrod length is a result of proper geometry. Shaft rockers can be set up with the heads on the bench. You don;t even need a pushrod. All you need to know is your net lift @ the valve. Proper geometry is this; when the centerline of the rocker is at 90* to the valve at mid lift. The center line of the rocker being an imaginary line that passes through the center of the rocker pivot, and through the center of the roller tip. When this imaginary line is 90*to the valve stem at mid lift, you have proper "mid lift" geometry. There are those who prefer a slight variation to this but for the most part, this is the industry standard. What this accomplishes is to give the minimum amount of roller sweep over the valve tip. Contrary to popular opinion, it is not being off centered that causes guide side loading and excessive wear, but it is excessive roller sweep on the valve tip that causes premature guide wear. Of course, in a perfect world we would like to have minimum s weep and be perfectly centered on the valve tip but that rarely occurs. Being centered is secondary to proper geometry and having the minimum amount of sweep. I use the center third of the valve tip as my "safe" working range for the sweep pattern. If it's within that range, it's good to go. If outside that range, then we have to do something about it and start looking at options.
My 390, basically all stock as far as deck height, cyl head milling, head gasket thickness and valve length needed .220" spacers to get the geometry right with Sharp roller tip rockers. That's not even close!!!! And yes, when I got the rockers where they should be, I had to clearance them for the pushrod cups. Oh well. That's what you have to do sometimes. I talked to Randy Jr at PRI about this and he seemed receptive to the suggestion of raising the stands. Of course, he's probably got bigger fish to fry so I'm not sure where that landed, but he said he had heard the same thing from several "FE" people.
Here's a diagram to help visualize what I'm talking about afa "mid lift" geometry;

(http://www.performanceboats.com/gallery/data/500/rocker_geometry1_1_.jpg)

Here's a short video I did for stud mount rockers but the principles apply to shafts as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5is9BsH5OU&feature=youtu.be

Because I work in cylinder head and induction development, rocker geometry is a real pet peeve of mine. There is power to be had or lost with it. There is longevity and reliability to be had or lost with it, and it's about as simple as it gets to do it right. I've had many, many, professional engine builders call me to thank me after watching my video, telling me how much sense it made and how easy it was, and that they had been doing it "wrong" their whole life.
I will edit to add: this all above only applys to roller tip rockers. The factory shoe type rocker has an entirely different geometry and NONE of this works with that type of rocker.
Scott, thank you so much for that video, You are the only one that has shown the 'Correct way to establish Geometry'@ 90degrees....an old engine builder/racer showed me that method in 1981 and told comp the way they had it there catalog was going to get people in trouble, but they were right and he was wrong. Thanks again.............Tom
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Felonious79 on May 18, 2018, 10:11:01 AM
andyf, can you tell me what your total timing was on the motor you built with the trick flow heads?  My dyno guy just ran an FE with these heads (stock) and ended up at 28 degrees. Mine is going on the dyno on Monday and he expects the timing will also be under 30 with these heads.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on May 18, 2018, 12:02:04 PM
We used 32 degrees. We had the first set of TF heads on a dyno so nobody knew any better. 32 seemed to work just fine, the engine ran hard and the plugs looked okay so we left it there. I wouldn't be surprised that slightly less or slightly more timing would work even better but we had lots of other things to try during the dyno session.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Felonious79 on May 18, 2018, 06:41:56 PM
Cool, thanks for the info.  I’ll definately report back next week the results of my session for anybody that’s interested.  I’ll try to get more info later, but I do know that the trick flow headed FE I mentioned earlier made 620 hp at 6000 rpm.  It had the trick flow single plane intake and the 4.25 scat stroker kit on a 406 motor.  The intake matched perfectly with no port matching needed. 
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on May 18, 2018, 08:51:12 PM
620 hp for 406 inches is really good. That is 1.53 hp/in which is a little better than we did with the 482. We were right at 700 which is 1.45 hp/inch and we had a dual throttle body setup.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Felonious79 on May 18, 2018, 09:39:10 PM
Sorry if I wasn’t clear, but it was a stroked 406, so it was actually a 461.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: FElony on May 18, 2018, 09:39:42 PM
Cool, thanks for the info.  I’ll definately report back next week the results of my session for anybody that’s interested.  I’ll try to get more info later, but I do know that the trick flow headed FE I mentioned earlier made 620 hp at 6000 rpm.  It had the trick flow single plane intake and the 4.25 scat stroker kit on a 406 motor.  The intake matched perfectly with no port matching needed.

Hey look, it's a d-bag FElony wannabe. Sad. There can be only one.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: fryedaddy on May 18, 2018, 10:37:42 PM
Well, whats the verdict.does the TF's out perform the other aftermarket options,out of the box?say,if you bolted them on the same engine as the others.has anyone done the comparo ,kinda like Jays intake comparo.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: FElony on May 18, 2018, 11:20:21 PM
Cool, thanks for the info.  I’ll definately report back next week the results of my session for anybody that’s interested.  I’ll try to get more info later, but I do know that the trick flow headed FE I mentioned earlier made 620 hp at 6000 rpm.  It had the trick flow single plane intake and the 4.25 scat stroker kit on a 406 motor.  The intake matched perfectly with no port matching needed.

Hey look, it's a d-bag FElony wannabe. Sad. There can be only one.

Let's hope this person has the ethics not to trample on a persona I've invested over 12 1/2 years of my life into, and changes his nym before any further posting.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: chilly460 on May 19, 2018, 05:26:32 AM
Any more details on the 406/461 combo?   
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: andyf on May 19, 2018, 02:21:01 PM
Well, whats the verdict.does the TF's out perform the other aftermarket options,out of the box?say,if you bolted them on the same engine as the others.has anyone done the comparo ,kinda like Jays intake comparo.

Not very many people have the time or money to compare cylinder heads on a dyno. Eventually someone might swap some ported Edelbrock heads for a new set of Trick Flows and maybe they'll come on here and publish the results but it could take a while. I've done A-B head testing on the dyno before and it is a lot of work. You have to line up the dyno time and order all the parts and then thrash hard for a couple of days. Sounds like fun until you do it a few times and then it just sounds like work.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: fastback 427 on May 19, 2018, 02:39:13 PM
Haha Andy! Blasphemy! Tell Jay about swapping parts and dyno tests... ::)
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Barry_R on May 19, 2018, 03:18:02 PM
Quote from: FElony

Hey look, it's a d-bag FElony wannabe. Sad. There can be only one.

Time for a duel!

Keyboards at 20 paces
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: FElony on May 19, 2018, 05:18:54 PM
Quote from: FElony

Hey look, it's a d-bag FElony wannabe. Sad. There can be only one.

Time for a duel!

Keyboards at 20 paces

Silly boy, you know I prefer swords. Unfortunately, a PM exchange shows that this particky lar newbie was unawares of the illustrious me, so there will be no beheading this weekend. I know it sounds absolutely incredible that anyone in the FE hobby doesn't know how to spit on the ground when my name gets mentioned. I am flubbergasted also. However, he writes well so I'm gonna go with "seems legit". He has promised to change his nym, so maybe Jay will make that easy for him.

I saw you in the Reunion vid, Robot Nick. I see that you are getting good use out of those brakes you unscrupulously heisted from my yard while I was high on brownies. Works for me.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Barry_R on May 19, 2018, 09:19:52 PM
I'll have you know that I was completely scrupulous when I took those brakes.

I did soup up the brownies a bit - you looked like you needed a nap.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: FElony on May 19, 2018, 09:33:28 PM
I'll have you know that I was completely scrupulous when I took those brakes.

I did soup up the brownies a bit - you looked like you needed a nap.

I need one now. I lost a torque struggle with a power tool today, and I put fentanyl and oxycodone into this evening's brownies. Guess I'll continue binge-watching Millenium episodes. It should all work together.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: cammerfe on May 19, 2018, 10:20:57 PM
Are you saying you're a millennial? I thought you were an old fart. (No, that can't be. Old farts dissipate. Are you dissipated? Maybe that's it!!! :o)

KS
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: WerbyFord on July 28, 2018, 11:16:28 PM
Just got my Sept.2018 Hemmings Muscle Machines
Cover has a blue 429SCJ Cobra, sort of a hybrid of the two I had.

Inside cover is a TFS ad, dyno of a 396cid FE, TFS heads, TFS Track Heat single plane intake (looks like a Jr Vic Jr), TFS 850 carb(looks like a mini dominator?), Comp 230-236-110 .529 .540 hyd roller, 10.63 CR, 1.75 headers into 3" flowmasters.
Torq 480 at 4400
Powr 464 at 5800

Gonkulator hit Torq right on but was about 10% high on Power - I gonkulated their intake as a Vic Jr. 10% is a lot, like over 40hp. So either the heads aren't as good as we think, or that TFS intake sucks, or the flowmasters wouldn't let the exhaust out. Why complicate things with MUFFLERS???? They didn't say WHICH flowmasters either, which makes a difference.

Just FYI, still scrounging for dyno data on the new TFS heads.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on July 29, 2018, 06:08:46 AM
Just got my Sept.2018 Hemmings Muscle Machines
Cover has a blue 429SCJ Cobra, sort of a hybrid of the two I had.

Inside cover is a TFS ad, dyno of a 396cid FE, TFS heads, TFS Track Heat single plane intake (looks like a Jr Vic Jr), TFS 850 carb(looks like a mini dominator?), Comp 230-236-110 .529 .540 hyd roller, 10.63 CR, 1.75 headers into 3" flowmasters.
Torq 480 at 4400
Powr 464 at 5800

Gonkulator hit Torq right on but was about 10% high on Power - I gonkulated their intake as a Vic Jr. 10% is a lot, like over 40hp. So either the heads aren't as good as we think, or that TFS intake sucks, or the flowmasters wouldn't let the exhaust out. Why complicate things with MUFFLERS???? They didn't say WHICH flowmasters either, which makes a difference.

Just FYI, still scrounging for dyno data on the new TFS heads.

You'll have some more in about 2 weeks.

I've got a build that has been an absolute pain in my behind to get finished, but I hope to have most of it completed this week.  It's a .030" over 390, 391 crank with BBC rod journals, TFS heads out of the box with my own valve spring package, one of my custom cams, a 240/243 @ .050", 109/103, .580" lift hydraulic roller.   Compression is 10.4:1.  Performer RPM intake with some plenum and divider modifications, with a Quick Fuel Q-850 carburetor. 

Some things I've seen so far about the TFS heads:  1.  Chamber volumes are under 70cc, which could pose a problem for some guys who just want to bolt on a set of heads.  2.  As discussed in other threads, the rocker geometry with factory-height stands is pitiful.  Right now I'm mocking it up, and with an .080" lash cap for mock-up purposes, the pattern is pretty far towards the exhaust side of the valve.  I have other lash caps that I will use to see how much I need to take off the stands, but then I'm going to be concerned about getting the pushrods into the tubes.  3.  In my situation, the intake valve touched the top of the valve relief in the piston....i.e. I had excellent depth clearance, but I had zero radial clearance and we had to fly cut the pistons. 

Learning curves.

IMO, the Track Heat intake is too large for a 5800 rpm 396.  Kinda knocks the low end and top end out both of the engine.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: chilly460 on July 29, 2018, 07:22:37 AM
Nice little combo, Brent.  Quick swag there would be 525hp, 500lbft with peaks around 6300/4800 respectively.  I like all these ~390 builds to compare to the 383 Chevy guys
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: CaptCobrajet on July 29, 2018, 08:12:45 PM
Hey Brent, I just milled .250 off the stands on a T&D single shaft set-up, and it came out right-on.  Sounds like an RPM intake is a better fit for that combo.  I think I like the TFS intake so far......will dyno one on a 428 in a few weeks.  It seems to need less work than a Victor to get to a similar place........if a single plane is the right avenue.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: turbohunter on July 29, 2018, 09:00:00 PM
Wow a quarter inch off the stands to get ‘em right?
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: CaptCobrajet on July 29, 2018, 09:59:09 PM
Yessir.  The pedestals on the TFS head are .300 taller, and the valves are longer.  Milling .250 off the rocker stands made it have really nice geometry.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: cjshaker on July 30, 2018, 07:37:52 AM
Yessir.  The pedestals on the TFS head are .300 taller, and the valves are longer.  Milling .250 off the rocker stands made it have really nice geometry.

Since the valves are longer, it sounds like the whole internal architecture is raised. Is that right? What's the purpose of that, to raise the port roof? I assume the valve seats are raised also? I don't get why TFS changed all this stuff, unless it was all for raising the roof of the port. Longer valves seem like somewhat of a drawback since there's added weight to the valvetrain.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on July 30, 2018, 11:32:33 AM
BP, have you ever cut down a set of factory stands that much?  Or do you think it'd be easier to start with HR stands and shim up?
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: CaptCobrajet on July 30, 2018, 10:32:57 PM
I think I would just get good billet aluminum stands and machine them.  It would take a lot of shim under a High Riser stand, and they aren't cheap.  The "base" of the standard OE stand isn't thick enough to mill .250 and still retain a good platform.   We just put the shaft through the billet stands, and turn them upside down in the Kurt vise, and mill them all exactly the same.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on July 31, 2018, 04:49:06 AM
I think I would just get good billet aluminum stands and machine them.  It would take a lot of shim under a High Riser stand, and they aren't cheap.  The "base" of the standard OE stand isn't thick enough to mill .250 and still retain a good platform.   We just put the shaft through the billet stands, and turn them upside down in the Kurt vise, and mill them all exactly the same.

Yeah, I went ahead and got a set of stands ordered yesterday.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: blykins on August 03, 2018, 05:46:40 AM
Sneaking up on it. 

I'm at .175".  Pattern is getting much better, but still some left in it. 

Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: preaction on August 03, 2018, 11:08:10 AM
This months Hemmings muscle machines has a Trick Flo ad that says with its Power port 175 heads and a 482 CI FE Car Craft  made over 700hp its just inside the front cover.
Title: Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
Post by: Joey120373 on September 15, 2018, 11:45:58 AM
Thought this was best posted on this thread.

I don't want to start a new argument about dyno results on this thread, rather my intended purpose is to further healthy conversation about the TF heads.

Now that Brent has built and tested a nice little 395 with these heads that seems punch well above its weight, I am that much more confident that had this 700 HP 482 been tested elsewhere it would have put up similarly impressive results.

While it's probably not really a good idea to compare a ~530HP 395 to a ~700HP 482, it does add a bit more data to judge the heads by.

thoughts?