New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake

[Barry_R]

Thanks for your well-thought-out evaluation. I'm curious---why are you against titanium for the street? (I've been using titanium for fifty years.)

KS

Probably because tool steel weight is within a couple grams and tool steel does not wear and leave tinsel in the oil over time?

[scott foxwell]

What the heck is a "Chevy" valve job?
Port backing up is usually an area @ the s/t problem...air becoming detached, going turbulent. Hard to get away from on small ports. I was surprised that my iron heads flowed all the way to .800 without backing up.
The "spiral bowl" seems to be showing up in a lot of ports. AFR is using it a lot. Still haven't found anyone who can tell me decisively what it's for. My best guess is some sort of swirl control (not to induce, but reduce) but it does take up volume in the bowl. I don't know how one could say if it helps or not without removing it and re-testing. Wet flowing might show something. Dyno testing, then track testing would be the only true test. First time I saw something like it was back in the 90s with the GM small block heads but they were trying to induce swirl. Not a performance thing. I agree...this port architecture doesn't seem to need that, or the vein in the floor. As seems to be the case with a lot of heads, they seemed focused on low and lid lift numbers which to a certain extent I can understand. The target customer isn't building a race engine and most of the critical lift and critical flow is in that area and, while I try not to trade those numbers for higher lift numbers, I still believe a port needs to flow out and not back up even above useful lift numbers.

[WConley]

Titanium doesn't have the wear resistance of tool steel, so the 1 - 2 gram weight savings over a good tool steel retainer (plus the added cost) doesn't make much sense on a street car.  They will fret to the point of measurably thinning down over the long term. 

Tool steel retainers - Fuggetaboutem and sleep well at night 

[andyf]

I've told Trick Flow several times that they could save money and provide an improved product to their customers if they would use tool steel retainers rather than Ti retainers on their heads. They could save at least $100 per set of heads (which they could put in their pocket) and the average guy would be better off with tool steel retainers. But obviously they don't listen to me since they keep shipping the heads with Ti retainers. There is probably more to the story but I don't know what it is. Someone's brother owns the Ti retainer franchise or something? Not a big problem to me, I usually pull the Ti retainers off and sell them to a drag race guy and then replace them with steel or tool steel depending on the application.

[scott foxwell]

I've told Trick Flow several times that they could save money and provide an improved product to their customers if they would use tool steel retainers rather than Ti retainers on their heads. They could save at least $100 per set of heads (which they could put in their pocket) and the average guy would be better off with tool steel retainers. But obviously they don't listen to me since they keep shipping the heads with Ti retainers. There is probably more to the story but I don't know what it is. Someone's brother owns the Ti retainer franchise or something? Not a big problem to me, I usually pull the Ti retainers off and sell them to a drag race guy and then replace them with steel or tool steel depending on the application.

The Ti retainers are most likely import and VERY inexpensive for them. Not sure of any import tool steel ret's yet but I'm sure they're not far behind. People are starting to get the idea about Ti vs tool steel.

[CaptCobrajet]

On the titanium, it definitely has a cycle life, which is directly effected by spring load.  When the titanium gives up, the center will drop out.  The keepers usually stay intact, inside the center.  Usually the last step on the inside starts to crack, and eventually breaks away from the outside part.  If it has not happened to you, you just have not run them to the point of failure.  Tool steel will have a much longer cycle life than titanium.

Scott, I've been working on FE heads for most of my life.  There are FE valvejobs, and there are infinite other ways to make a cutter.  I called it a Chevy valvejob because it looks like widths and angles commonly used on Chevrolet and other aftermarket performance heads.  That stuff seems to work on Chevrolet heads........I just know I have some designs that work better on FE heads.  Some of my junk works on the other stuff, but I created the cutters I use testing only FE heads.  I have several cutters that work for various ideas.  I'd call mine FE cutters, and I call the others Chevy cutters. 

I have flowed the GM LS7 CNC  heads, and they have similar characteristics.  The short turn is part of the "back up", but the hook  contributes also.  If you take the hook out, it will help the .600-up numbers, and it hurts the 3-4-500 numbers.  I am sure the same will happen on this FE port, as they are very much alike.

[C8WE]

Interesting. Blair's flow #'s came in right about where I thought they would if we had used a 4.25 bore, assuming that is the bore size Blair did use. I figured ball park add 10cfm. For a street car and even a non full out race car  those flow #'s are great, if they produce on the dyno and or back tire. For the price used in a  street/strip application  they're hard to beat. Out of the box and $500.00 less expensive, they out flow the BBM heads by 20cfm. That is impressive bolt on performance. 

[CaptCobrajet]

I used a 4.160 plate.  Flow figures from different benches can't tell you much.  On my bench, the .500 and .600 lift numbers are better than the BBM on only the intake port.  The .100-.400 were about the same.  The exhaust on the BBM was better everywhere, and so is the chamber.  The valves and hardware on the BBM are very high quality.  Lots to consider, but the TFS is not a bad value.  There are areas where both shine.

[C8WE]

TFR heads out flowed my as recieved BBM heads  everywhere  save .100 intake and the exhaust @.100 and.200 which were basically the same. After porting the BBM heads still do not flow better than the TFR heads except at .600.

 On my 427 build with as recieved BBM heads and a RPM intake the dyno rang up 450 Hp and about 500 Trq.  With hand ported  BBM heads, a proper valve job and Blue Thunder intake it produced 525 Hp and 530 trq.
 It will be interesting to see how the TFR heads perform. They seem like they might be really nice street/race heads.

[My427stang]

If anyone has a set handy, can you measure the exhaust port floor and roof location from the bottom header bolt?

Hoping someone came up with a halfway efficient port that can fit both unibody/truck and CJ/early headers.  Would love to be able to run aluminum heads with available headers on a truck!  It would have to be a smaller overall port with a high floor, low roof

[scott foxwell]

300cfm is capable of well over 700hp. Low lift ex flow numbers are almost irrelevant other than for cam design.
Does the BBM intake port back up like the TF head?
What valves and guides does BBM use? I know TrickFlow used to use nothing but Ferrea valves, CHE guides, PAC springs and all quality US made retainers and locks. Sounds like they may have changed a few things.

[GJCAT427]

Where can you find the Roush 1 piece seal? looked in the on line catalog didn't see it.

[Barry_R]

On my 427 build with as recieved BBM heads and a RPM intake the dyno rang up 450 Hp and about 500 Trq.  With hand ported  BBM heads, a proper valve job and Blue Thunder intake it produced 525 Hp and 530 trq.

A 427 with BBM heads should make more than 450 unless it was a really, really mild build.  The closest to stock one I have done was already around 440ish with a set of unported medium risers, a stock 2x4 intake, and a 282S Comp (folks here know that that is a very mild street/strip cam).  A set of BBM, Survival, or TFS heads will be significantly stronger than that with a 30 or 40 (or 50?) cfm airflow advantage from comparable cross section.

I have flowed a set of BBM heads using the same valves and valve job we use on my stuff.  Although BBM is a competitor - the parts appeared to perform quite well and were in the 290s with just a valve job and quick blend - no porting.  Similar to my own stuff in terms of flow - single digit differences throughout the curve.  I see single four barrel street 445s making 500 pretty often with mine and would expect about the same with BBMs. 

I do not know how the TFS will compare yet - they are owned by Summit with obviously a huge budget behind the company.  They are cast at the Edelbrock foundry.  My Edelbrock contact says that they provide a raw casting and TFS does all the finish work themselves.  No idea if and where they did their engine testing - it will be interesting to see some results.  I imagine the publicity will come through Summit's magazine relationships - probably see an article in Hot Rod sometime soon with a build at Westech or Grubbs.

[cammerfe]

You split it. 

You cut it with a razor blade and then stretch it over the crankshaft.  Split goes towards the top of the block.

So, are you supposed to cut the real main seal into 2 pieces, or make one cut and bend it to get around the cranks flywheel flange? Either sounds pretty sketchy to me. Most 1 piece seals also use a garter spring on the backside of the seal lip, does this one also have a spring? Personally, I have always believed most FE rear seal leaks to be from the side seals or the cap, not tghe rubber seals, so you would still have that area to deal with, if you did somehow get this "1 piece" seal to fit properly and actually work.

You make one cut and bend it around. 

I agree about the side seals.

Carl Holbrook had a 'stash' of items that were, or had become, hard to get. He had a paper grocery bag half full of 'rawhide' side seals. You soaked them in warm/hot oil and then slid them in place. They'd swell up and did a better job of sealing than anything I ever saw, with the exception of injecting 'Right Stuff'.

KS

[thatdarncat]

Where can you find the Roush 1 piece seal? looked in the on line catalog didn't see it.

I'd give them a call if you're interested. While we were at PRI a couple weeks ago a few of the Roush guys came around to Jay's FE Power booth and showed us the seal first hand, so we know they have it and are selling it. A little later that day a guy came around from the company that actually manufacturers the seal for Roush, also to show us the seal, and he explained that Roush has the exclusive rights to sell the seal for a period of years, so Roush will be the only place you will be able to buy it, at least for the near future. 

I'll add on a side note pet peeve - I'm always amazed at the new products I'll stumble across at something like PRI, and when you ask the Reps if the item is in on their website they reply "not yet". I can understand the issues with getting new products into the actual paper & ink published catalog, but online websites should be able to be updated almost immediately, and have actual pictures of each individual product, but often don't. Companies are missing the marketing bulls-eye.