Author Topic: 68 Mustang Memorial Day Weekend Thrash  (Read 59709 times)

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427Fastback

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Re: 68 Mustang Memorial Day Weekend Thrash
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2015, 12:01:09 PM »
On the Camaro other than the shifter problems I also had release bearing problems...It was way to short and the fork smaked the trans..I had to remove the pivot bracket from the quicktime bellhousing and cut it apart to move it in 3/8..
This was after I already had the trans in..

I have long believed that the only thing that's a "bolt on" is a air freshener....
1968 Mustang Fastback...427 MR 5spd (owned since 1977)
1967 Mustang coupe...Trans Am replica
1936 Diamond T 212BD
1990 Grizzly pick-up

thatdarncat

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Re: 68 Mustang Memorial Day Weekend Thrash
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2015, 12:59:22 PM »
Rule #1, no matter what the advertisement / catalog / tech person says....assume it will not fit.
Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
1978 Lincoln Mk V

57 lima bean

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Re: 68 Mustang Memorial Day Weekend Thrash
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2015, 03:17:39 PM »
54 inches center to center with a C6 yoke and 1310 joint.I woke up with baited breath ....horrible.

rcodecj

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Re: 68 Mustang Memorial Day Weekend Thrash
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2015, 04:07:30 PM »
Jay, the spring perches should be in the same location on the '57 Ford housing and the '67 Mustang. You might want to check before you go to the trouble of cutting them off.  Fairlane / Comet are different spacing.  You do have to use either the '57 Ford lower shock plates or slot the u-bolt holes in the '67 Mustang shock plates since the Mustang uses a housing that necks down at the ends and the '57 Ford uses straight tubes. You may want to box in the spring perches though for strength. Knowing you, somehow it may wind up with more power some day lol.

I 2nd that about the spring perches on the 57 being the same as the 67 mustang, been there done that on my 1st 67 mustang.
First of 4!

Also Jay, I have the 3" Magnaflow exhaust on my 67 mustang and it fit quite well.

cobracammer

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Re: 68 Mustang Memorial Day Weekend Thrash
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2015, 07:23:16 PM »
Saturday morning and I've hit a major roadblock with this project.  This morning I started working on mating up the engine and transmission.  First thing I did was try to install the pilot bearing that comes with the American Powertrain kit.  Unfortunately, it just slid right into the back of the crank, with no press.  In fact, there was a bunch of slop.  This pilot bearing is a roller bearing installed inside what looks like a bronze pilot bushing, with the center hole of the bushing opened up to accomodate the bearing.  But measuring the outside of the assembly, it measures 1.820"; factory Ford pilot bushings measure 1.850".  This thing was 0.030" too small in diameter!  What a joke.  I checked a stock Ford bushing but the ID was too small for the input shaft of the trans.  I spent the next hour pressing the bearing out of the pilot bushing it was in, then cutting a factory pilot bushing on my lathe so that I could press in the bearing.

After fixing that problem, I went to install the new bushing/bearing into the back of the crank.  After getting it pushed most of the way in, I noticed that the bearing was not pushing in any farther, as I continued to drive the bushing into the crank.  The bearing is thicker than the bushing, so the back side of the bearing must be hitting the recess in the crank, and not allowing it to go in any farther.  When I had the bushing all the way in, the bearing was standing proud of the bushing by about a tenth of an inch.  Now I was worried that I would have interference with the input shaft.

To check this, I took the Quicktime bell and its backing plate and installed them on the engine.  I measured from the mounting surface of the bell to the surface of the pilot bearing, and got 4-1/4".  Seemed a little short to me.  I went over to the trans, and when I measured that I got a real surprise.  From the mounting surface of the transmission to the start of the pilot shaft, I measured 4-3/4"!  Even if that pilot bearing hadn't pushed out, there's no way that the transmission would fit.

So, now I'm wondering if I'm missing some parts.  If there's anybody here who has done one of these installs, can you tell me if there's a spacer that is supposed to go between the Quicktime Bell and the T56 Magnum?   It seems to me like there ought to be a 1/2" spacer in there, or else I have the wrong transmission, or the wrong bellhousing.  If you know something about this, please respond ASAP.  In the meantime, I'm going to be working on front suspension and rear end stuff...

Hey Jay. Yes, I have a quicktime bell housing and a T56 xl... There is an aluminum spacer that is supposed to go between trans and bellhousing to distance the input shaft back away from the bushing. When I got my kit, it was the one thing they didnt have in stock and it had to be ordered trom tremec. I can crawl under the car and measure mkne if you would like. Not sure if you are going to machine your own?
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

jayb

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Re: 68 Mustang Memorial Day Weekend Thrash
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2015, 10:46:23 PM »
Thanks Jason, I'm wondering why I don't have that spacer, which should have come in the "complete" kit that I got from American Powertrain  >:(  I'm going to have to call those guys on Tuesday, and get ready to wait on hold for at least 20 minutes (I've never gotten through to anyone but the secretary in less than 20 minutes, and often it is 40).  The missing spacer and the lack of instructions with this kit, with the sole exception being the instructions for the hydraulic clutch, is just icing on the cake of poor service from this company  >:(

OK, rant off.  Despite the transmission setback there was a lot of progress today, and I have a plan to proceed with the transmission anyway.  My pal Steve was over helping out today, and after getting stalled on the engine/trans combination, Steve focused on the front suspension parts and I worked on getting the engine and trans ready to put together tomorrow.  Since we weren't going to put the engine/trans in today, we didn't need to be able to roll the car around the shop, so there was no reason to limit the front suspension work to parts that could be quickly put back together to allow the car to roll.  Steve tore apart the whole front suspension as a result, and replaced the upper control arms, lower control arms, and inner and outer tie rod ends.  When he got the upper control arms off I marked and drilled new control arm mounting points, lowered by 1" like the early Shelbys.  Here's a picture of the new upper control arm mounting points from under the engine compartment:



Steve and I also installed new front shocks, and a 1" front swaybar.  Finally, Steve removed the front drum brakes in preparation for the front disc brake installation.  Here's a picture of one side of the front suspension as it sits now:



Back to the engine and trans, which I spent most of time on today.  Here's a picture of the new pilot bearing with the roller bearing installed, with the old one, which was too small in diameter, on the right:



Made in China.  Great ::)

After discovering the problem with the spacing of the trans to the engine, Steve and I talked about this for a while, and concluded that I could get the engine and trans dummied into place if I just made up some 1/2" thick donut spacers from 3/4" aluminum round stock that I have on hand, to bolt between the trans and the bellhousing.  This way I could at least confirm the fit of the transmission in the car, and get a driveshaft measurement too (once the new rear end is installed).  In fact, when I get the actual spacer I need I could actually cut it in half, and install it one half at a time, by pulling the small spacers on one side of the transmission and bolting in the first spacer half, and then repeating on the other side.  So, I might even be able to keep the transmission installed in the car in that case, if there is room to put the full spacer in place once the transmission is installed.

With that plan in mind, I continued working on the engine and transmission to make sure it was completely ready to install once I made up the spacers.  Of course, there were issues that came up, for example the starter.  The picture below shows the Powermaster starter I'm using for this engine.  It is one of their clockable starters, but despite the fact that it can be rotated with respect to the mounting points 360 degrees, I needed to make a slight "modification" in order to get it to fit on the engine and also clear the headers:



Despite a series of small problems like this, by dinner time I had the engine pretty much ready to go, with the clutch and bellhousing installed, and all the engine accessories.  Here's a picture of the engine as it sits now, hanging from the engine hoist:



One thing I haven't installed yet is the clear valve covers; I think I will wait on those until the engine is finally installed in the car.  One big reason I'm trying to get this car done now is so that I can drive it in the heat of the summer months, in traffic, and make sure that the clear polycarbonate valve covers don't melt LOL!  Assuming they pass the summer drive test intact, I may start building those this fall.

As mentioned earlier I did get some instruction sheets for the hydraulic clutch cylinder and throwout bearing.  Here's a picture of the throwout bearing installed on the transmission:



The instructions had me take some fairly precise measurements to set the distance from the throwout bearing face to the clutch fingers.  They gave you a bunch of shims to shim the throwout bearing to get it closer, in order to achieve a gap of 0.150" to 0.200" between the face of the throwout bearing and the clutch fingers.  Well, with a 1/2" spacer between the bellhousing and the transmission, I ended up with 0.110" of clearance, with no spacers.  It says in the instructions that anything over 0.100" is OK, so I'm going to stick with what I've got, but I guess if the spacer ends up being more like 0.550", it would put me right on the suggested range.

In preparation for tomorrow, tonight I started looking at the transmission mount.  These are the pieces that I think are involved (again, no instructions on this):



It is not obvious to me how this mounting arrangement fits into my car.  Anybody have any suggestions on this?

Tomorrow, I will install the front brakes first, so that the front  tires can go back on the car and it can be moved around off the hoist, and then I'm going to whip up the 1/2" spacers on my lathe, and get the engine and trans test installed in the car.  Should be a fun day.  I'll post another update tomorrow - Jay
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: 68 Mustang Memorial Day Weekend Thrash
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2015, 10:56:58 PM »
Jay, the spring perches should be in the same location on the '57 Ford housing and the '67 Mustang. You might want to check before you go to the trouble of cutting them off.  Fairlane / Comet are different spacing.  You do have to use either the '57 Ford lower shock plates or slot the u-bolt holes in the '67 Mustang shock plates since the Mustang uses a housing that necks down at the ends and the '57 Ford uses straight tubes. You may want to box in the spring perches though for strength. Knowing you, somehow it may wind up with more power some day lol.

I 2nd that about the spring perches on the 57 being the same as the 67 mustang, been there done that on my 1st 67 mustang.
First of 4!

Also Jay, I have the 3" Magnaflow exhaust on my 67 mustang and it fit quite well.

I remeasured today, and confirmed that my 57 Ford rearend has the spring perches on centers that are narrower by 3/4" than the ones currently on the 8" in the Mustang.  My guess is that if I pulled the springs inboard against the rubber spring eye mounts, I could bolt the 57 Ford rearend into position without too much trouble.  But it would be pulling the leaf springs inboard by 3/8" per side.  If I end up going with Cal-Tracs on this car, I don't think that would be a good option, so I'm going to cut the spring perches off and weld on new ones in the correct location.

Also, near as I can measure with the drums still on the rear end in the car, the overall length of the 57 Ford axle housing is about 1-1/4" shorter than the Mustang housing; do the 57 Ford axle housings that you guys have used also have this dimension?

Maybe my "57 Ford" rear axle housing is not really a 57 Ford?  They guy I got it from can't remember for sure what year it was, but he told me it was a 57 when I got it from him...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Dan859

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Re: 68 Mustang Memorial Day Weekend Thrash
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2015, 10:59:24 PM »
Hi Jay,
Very cool project, hope I can help some.  I put a TKO 600 behind my Genesis 427 with a quicktime bellhousing and I ran into a similar problem.  The TKO shaft is like 1/4 inch longer than the shaft for the topcover transmission.  I went online, found the correct length for the input shaft and had it turned down to the correct length.  You might also be able to just make an adapter plate to fit between the tranny and bellhousing.  Good luck!
Dan

Nightmist66

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Re: 68 Mustang Memorial Day Weekend Thrash
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2015, 02:17:31 AM »
Jay, was that a small block pilot bearing pressed into a bushing that came with the kit? Do you have a standard FE style 6303 bearing to use or would that be too thick? Never mind, I think you mentioned the hole was too small for the input shaft on this trans, but that doesn't make sense if they used a small block bearing. The FE and small block look like they are both .672-3ish. Is the input bigger than that? Also, please keep updated on the valve covers. A set of clear pentroofs may not look too bad either......Just saying if you ever get a chance ;) It wouldn't be hot rodding if you didn't have to re-engineer everything!
Jared



66 Fairlane GT 390 - .035" Over 390, Wide Ratio Top Loader, 9" w/spool, 4.86

jayb

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Re: 68 Mustang Memorial Day Weekend Thrash
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2015, 08:49:37 AM »
Jay, was that a small block pilot bearing pressed into a bushing that came with the kit? Do you have a standard FE style 6303 bearing to use or would that be too thick? Never mind, I think you mentioned the hole was too small for the input shaft on this trans, but that doesn't make sense if they used a small block bearing. The FE and small block look like they are both .672-3ish. Is the input bigger than that? Also, please keep updated on the valve covers. A set of clear pentroofs may not look too bad either......Just saying if you ever get a chance ;) It wouldn't be hot rodding if you didn't have to re-engineer everything!

I checked the fit of a stock FE pilot bushing on the input shaft of the transmission, and it felt a little loose; the bearing that came with the kit felt much better.  So, I think the pilot shaft on the Tremec transmission may be smaller in diameter than a Ford transmission.

You'll be happy to know that I have started on a plug for vacuum forming the pent roof valve covers.  However, they are a much deeper draw than the Cobra Jet valve covers, so I don't know if I'll be able to get them to work or not.  We will see...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: 68 Mustang Memorial Day Weekend Thrash
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2015, 09:04:12 AM »
Hi Jay,
Very cool project, hope I can help some.  I put a TKO 600 behind my Genesis 427 with a quicktime bellhousing and I ran into a similar problem.  The TKO shaft is like 1/4 inch longer than the shaft for the topcover transmission.  I went online, found the correct length for the input shaft and had it turned down to the correct length.  You might also be able to just make an adapter plate to fit between the tranny and bellhousing.  Good luck!
Dan

Dan, are you saying to turn down the splined portion of the shaft?  Or are you saying just to cut the pilot shaft off shorter?

In my case the problem is that the splined portion of the shaft hits the pilot bearing about 3/8" before the face of the transmission contacts the bellhousing.  MustangGT suggested a Lakewood spacer in his post; these are 1/4" thick, so I could go with two of those to get the clearances right.  I could also machine one myself, but I don't know the precise location of all the holes, so it would be better (and easier) to just get two of the Lakewood spacers.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Nightmist66

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Re: 68 Mustang Memorial Day Weekend Thrash
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2015, 10:31:08 AM »
Quote
I checked the fit of a stock FE pilot bushing on the input shaft of the transmission, and it felt a little loose; the bearing that came with the kit felt much better.  So, I think the pilot shaft on the Tremec transmission may be smaller in diameter than a Ford transmission.

You'll be happy to know that I have started on a plug for vacuum forming the pent roof valve covers.  However, they are a much deeper draw than the Cobra Jet valve covers, so I don't know if I'll be able to get them to work or not.  We will see...

I wonder if the bushing you had was maybe worn a little? I thought maybe if you had one of the 6303 ball bearings, that might work. I just don't care for the Mickey Mouse bearing setup they sent you and not just because it's made in China. ::) I think I would do the same for now and make some 1/2" thick spacers around all the bolt holes to get the mockup complete until the replacement arrives. Also, thanks for the consideration on the pentroof covers. I would love to do the durability testing on those for you, LOL! Good luck with the rest of the project.
Jared



66 Fairlane GT 390 - .035" Over 390, Wide Ratio Top Loader, 9" w/spool, 4.86

Dan859

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Re: 68 Mustang Memorial Day Weekend Thrash
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2015, 03:38:25 PM »
Quote
Dan, are you saying to turn down the splined portion of the shaft?  Or are you saying just to cut the pilot shaft off shorter?

In my case the problem is that the splined portion of the shaft hits the pilot bearing about 3/8" before the face of the transmission contacts the bellhousing.  MustangGT suggested a Lakewood spacer in his post; these are 1/4" thick, so I could go with two of those to get the clearances right.  I could also machine one myself, but I don't know the precise location of all the holes, so it would be better (and easier) to just get two of the Lakewood spacers.

Jay, my input shaft was too long.  The first thing I did was have an aluminum 3/8" spacer made, using the bellhousing as a template.  A local machine shop cut the spacer with one of those water jets and it came out pretty good.  The spacer went between the the bellhousing and the transmission.  That seemed to work OK, but I was concerned that the spacer would make the clutch ride 3/8" further up the input shaft.  When I went online, I found the answer on Richmond's web site.  Their 5 speed transmissions also have a long input shaft, and on the site it says that the shaft needs to be shortened to use on FE's and provides the dimensions the shaft needs to be.  I called their tech line, and the tech confirmed the length difference.  I took the dimensions and the web site info to a machinist who does a lot of work for local drag racers and guys running at Watkins Glen.  I've had the shaft modified, but I'm working overseas right now and won't be able to put it back together until I come home in the summer.  The engine is also out of the car, so I'll mock them both up together beforehand to make sure everything is right.  Hope this clears it up a bit.
Dan

jayb

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Re: 68 Mustang Memorial Day Weekend Thrash
« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2015, 11:42:54 PM »
Its pretty late, so I'm going to let the pictures do the talking.  The first one shows the transmission with extended alignment pins, so I can use the 1/2" spacers to install the trans. 



Next is the engine and trans assembled, with help from my friend thatdarncat:



Here's a couple of pictures of the front brake installation, which I had to complete before I could roll the car around to get it ready for the engine and transmission:





And, here's the engine going in the car, and temporarily installed:





More tomorrow...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

MustangGT

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Re: 68 Mustang Memorial Day Weekend Thrash
« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2015, 05:50:37 AM »
You might want to remove the pivot ball for the throw out arm on the transmission. I had to take mine off because it hit the McLeod RST pressure plate.