Author Topic: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter  (Read 31612 times)

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jayb

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2015, 02:05:02 PM »
A dyno test is definitely in the works for some of these manifolds.  I'm not interested in just putting out "eyewash" LOL! 
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Joe-JDC

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2015, 03:27:38 PM »
All righty then!  We need the heat down this way!   ;D
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

XR7

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2015, 09:53:27 PM »
Looks like your getting pretty good with Solid-works Jay! Wow! Good job! Looks like a lot of work. I like how you have the different colors to separate the pieces from each other, really cool drawings.

I was curious to the height of the 2x4 carb pad once assembled, like from the bottom of the base adapter just above the "china wall", to the carb flange. And also how that would compare for instance, to the 351C tunnel ram height on the same adapter. It looks pretty tall, but I understand your design and reasoning for the runner length, and that makes sense to me.

Do you have any idea on height, for the other designs you are considering, like you mentioned the 4th harmonic runner length (much shorter I believe) and also the slightly shorter runner length for 8000 RPM tuning.

I think I would like a little more space/width in the center of the plenum lengthwise, between the bottom of the port openings also, perhaps you can do that with the shorter runner versions hopefully. As you know, I have been playing around with a couple cast tunnel rams on your adapter for someone else, and I see compromises with those in several places, and they don't fit either...LOL. Nothing a hot glue gun can't fix... but what a pain, plus time and money. I can see it would be hard to design the "perfect" tunnel ram, let along one that would cover several different "combos"... as they are all different, and people are all after different things for different reasons.

I have to admit I voted for the 2x4 sheetmetal style tunnel ram in your poll, even though I wanted a single 4 Dominator spider style race intake, I just figured that wouldn't get many votes and voted for the next best thing (in my mind anyway). I probably wouldn't buy one, but it looks like one heck of a good deal, if I were in the market, or it was a 4V spider, I would buy it in a heartbeat.

Keep up the good work, nice write up and info, pictures, etc. Your an animal! Can't wait to see what you come up with next!
68 Cougar XR7 GT street legal, 9.47@144.53, 3603# at the line, 487 HR center oiler, single carb, Jerico 4 speed, 10.5 tires, stock(er) suspension, all steel full interior

jayb

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2015, 12:08:47 AM »
From the bottom of the intake adapter to the carb mounting surface, including the height of the upper plenum, the distance is 13.4".  The Weiand tunnel ram measures shorter than this, at around 11.5".  The shorter ones, for the higher RPM ranges, would probably be about 2.5" shorter.  I'm working on one of those now; I'll post some screen shots when I've finished it.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

XR7

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2015, 01:51:20 AM »
Thanks for the measurements Jay.

Also, just so there is no confusion... when I said...       "I see compromises with those in several places, and they don't fit either...LOL."     :o     I want to make it clear I was talking about the cast tunnel rams I was trying to make work, and not your adapter itself, of course. Your adapter was machined exactly as I requested and I appreciate all the extra effort and time that you had in it, in order to do that, it is 100%.    8)    Thanks again for putting up with me. There are a few more orders to come like that, I am thinking.
68 Cougar XR7 GT street legal, 9.47@144.53, 3603# at the line, 487 HR center oiler, single carb, Jerico 4 speed, 10.5 tires, stock(er) suspension, all steel full interior

BB-63

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2015, 02:19:20 PM »
Jay - Does the runner length include the length of the ports in the adapter? - Garrett

jayb

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2015, 03:09:20 PM »
Yes, the whole intake tract is included, from valve to the opening in the plenum.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

blykins

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2015, 08:13:12 AM »
That would work really well on my 352.....
Brent Lykins
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jayb

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2015, 08:38:40 PM »
Here's the manifold model I just finished tonight for tuning to the fourth harmonic.  Tuning to the fourth harmonic knocks about 2" off the length of the runners.  This sets the plenum down quite a bit, and so now there's a bulge on the inside to accomodate the distributor.






Overall height of the manifold is reduced by about 2-1/4".  I haven't done the EFI version of the runners yet, but just for fun I plopped the front inlet Holley plenum top into place anyway.  This looks like it just might fit under the hood of a Mustang.  That would be cool...




Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

cjshaker

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2015, 09:36:59 PM »
Knowing little about harmonics and how it relates to rpm efficiency, at what rpm level is the 4th harmonic optimized for? That does look pretty darned cool and would be an awesome set-up for forced induction and EFI, I'd think! Put some bungs on the adapter, fabricate a rail and mounts and it would be a pretty wicked looking and performing combo. But that CAD drawing also has me thinking about a custom top to be used with a 2x4 setup.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

turbohunter

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2015, 09:55:11 PM »
That's really beautiful work Jay.
Would you please explain a little about the fourth harmonic.
I get how it relates to music and sound but how does it relate to tuning?
BTW I'm with Doug on the 2x4.
Marc
'61 F100 292Y
'66 Mustang Injected 428
'66 Q code Country Squire wagon


jayb

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2015, 10:59:28 PM »
I'll tell you guys what I've discerned on this subject, but don't take it as gospel, because I'm still learning, and I might be wrong about some of this.  But, from what I've read on the subject:

The harmonic relates to how many times the pressure tuning wave travels back and forth along the intake tract.  The theory goes something like this:  the air/fuel mix has mass, and therefore momentum as it moves down the intake tract towards the valve.  At the end of the intake stroke, as the valve is closing and the piston is starting to come up the bore, the momentum of the air/fuel column is still trying to fill the cylinder.  When the valve slams shut, the air/fuel mix is still coming and builds up pressure against the valve.  Since the valve is shut, this pressure wave can't go anywhere and so is reflected back up the intake tract until it reaches the plenum, then it reflects there and goes back down to the valve.  The pressure wave travels at the speed of sound in the intake tract, which is generally considered to be somewhere around 1250 feet per second, if I recall correctly. 

Once the pressure wave makes it back to the valve it has completed the first harmonic.  The same process repeats itself again and again.  By the time it arrives back at the valve the third time (third harmonic), the intake valve is open again and the pressure wave helps to ram the air/fuel mixture into the cylinder.  So, the pressure wave travels at a specific speed, and at a given RPM if you change the length of the intake tract, you change the time when the third harmonic pressure wave arrives back at the open intake valve.

There is an ideal time for this pressure wave to arrive, and it seems to be the subject of some disagreement, at least among the papers and books I read on the subject.  There are several different formulas out there for calculating the ideal length of the intake tract, but the inputs for all of them are the engine speed in RPM, and which harmonic you are aiming for.  Some of the better ones also include intake duration as an input, in an attempt to take into account when the intake valve closes (which starts the whole harmonic process), and the rest seem to just use some typical value. 

Tuning for the third harmonic is supposed to give the best results, with maximum torque available over an RPM range of 1000 or so.  Sheet metal intakes are typically designed to tune to the third harmonic.  Single plane intakes typically average tuning at the fourth harmonic; I say average because some of the runners are longer than others, so they may tune at different engine speeds.  The fourth harmonic is not as good for torque as the third, but from what I've read the torque range is a little broader, maybe 1400 RPM or so.  The old early 1960s Chrysler crossrams tuned at the second harmonic, which gives even more torque than the third, but is much more difficult to package.

The fourth harmonic intake design in my post above is designed to tune at the same RPM as the original third harmonic design.  But it will also tune at the third harmonic, just at a higher engine speed.  So, this manifold will tune at the fourth harmonic around 7000 RPM, and at the third harmonic at around 8900 RPM.  In between those RPM levels, say at 8000 RPM, the pressure wave will have a detrimental effect on power production.  So, if you time the pressure wave wrong, you will lose horsepower, not gain it.  This is why all the hardcore racers pay attention to runner length, and try to optimize it for whatever RPM range they are running at the track.

I hope that explanation helps.  To me, a little empirical testing on the dyno, once I have a couple of these things put together, will go a long way towards really dialing in the runner lengths.  Formulas are fine, but some real horsepower numbers will take a lot of the unknowns out of this process.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

ToddK

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2015, 11:15:05 PM »
Interesting stuff, we are all learning all the time.

cjshaker

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2015, 12:31:24 AM »
I had to go back to the beginning and forgot that you had already considered the bung/injector route for the taller version. Not to mention the available 2x4 upper plenum. ::)

At this point, with the shorter version being useable on the standard adapter, and since I'm planning on my build having a 7000+ rpm limit, I would be very interested in this version. I like the looks of the standard tunnel ram better than that upper plenum, but I think the port angles would work better than using the Cleveland intake. And since performance would be my first priority, with looks behind that, I'd rather go with this intake rather than the Cleveland. You could count me in on one of the shorter versions.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

turbohunter

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2015, 10:49:11 AM »
Thanks Jay
I did a little Googling and played with runner lengths in a calculator to see the values change.
Pretty interesting stuff.
Marc
'61 F100 292Y
'66 Mustang Injected 428
'66 Q code Country Squire wagon