Author Topic: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter  (Read 31626 times)

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machoneman

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2018, 06:40:17 PM »
Yes, nice work Jay!

Vibration? Who woulda' thunk that a sheet-metal runner could vibrate. Amazing!
Bob Maag

cjshaker

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2018, 07:42:22 AM »
Pretty darned cool !! Those runners look like one piece deals, and probably a tricky piece to machine. One question, what's the theory on the carbs being offset from parallel?
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

mbrunson427

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2018, 10:42:01 AM »
Awesome!

One question, what's the theory on the carbs being offset from parallel?
I wonder the same thing.
Mike Brunson
BrunsonPerformance.com

WConley

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2018, 11:02:57 AM »
Very cool setup!  I'd be careful with that flat top design under full vacuum load.  With that much flat area you've got hundreds of pounds pushing down.  In Delrin especially it will sag quite a bit.  Even with aluminum you might have a problem. 

I'd want to put some structural ribs between the carb pads and edges to stiffen things up. 

JMO, of course!

- Bill
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

jayb

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2018, 11:16:57 AM »
The idea on the tilted carbs is to get the carb butterflies as close as possible to directly over the runner entrances in the plenum.  Since there is a stagger left to right on the cylinders, the runner entrances are also staggered in the plenum.  So rotating the carbs a bit will line the butterflies in the carb up more closely with the runner entrances.

On the Delrin question I agree that if I made the top out of Delrin it would probably flex and sag quite a bit.  However, I wasn't considering that, I was only considering using the Delrin to make a spacer that went between the billet plenum and the billet top plate that the carbs mount on.  Sorry if I wasn't clear about that.  The delrin spacer would have a wall thickness of about 3/4" and just go between the top plate and the plenum, so it isn't going to sag or move around in that location.  But Bill that is an interesting comment about the force on the top plate.  There are about 160 square inches of area in that top plate with the carb butterflies closed.  When snapping the throttle closed after a wide open pass you might have zero pressure in the plenum, so at 14.7 psi atmospheric pressure, that is a load of 2350 pounds distributed on that top plate LOL! Yikes, some reinforcing ribs are probably a good idea, even with the aluminum...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

cjshaker

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2018, 11:45:09 AM »
The idea on the tilted carbs is to get the carb butterflies as close as possible to directly over the runner entrances in the plenum.  Since there is a stagger left to right on the cylinders, the runner entrances are also staggered in the plenum.  So rotating the carbs a bit will line the butterflies in the carb up more closely with the runner entrances.


I get it now. I didn't think of the fore/aft stagger of the runners
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

WConley

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2018, 05:23:58 PM »
...  There are about 160 square inches of area in that top plate with the carb butterflies closed.  When snapping the throttle closed after a wide open pass you might have zero pressure in the plenum, so at 14.7 psi atmospheric pressure, that is a load of 2350 pounds distributed on that top plate LOL! Yikes, some reinforcing ribs are probably a good idea, even with the aluminum...

I was thinking about a vacuum pot a friend made years ago for molding urethane parts.  (When you fill the mold with urethane, you need to put it in a vacuum to get the air bubbles out...)  Anyway, most of these pots are thick acrylic cylinders with a dome on the top.  Anyway, my friend had a bunch of massive 1" thick acrylic pieces, so he made a 24" x 24" x 12" high  box with a removable flat lid. 

When he pulled a vacuum on the box, the 1" thick top collapsed and exploded!  It's truly amazing how much force builds up when you have some area  :o :o
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 05:29:04 PM by WConley »
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

Heo

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2018, 06:51:21 PM »
 ;D ;D my neighbour welded himself a airtank
For the compressor same gauge steel as a regular
tank.... but he made a cube.... that thing tried
to be a ball



The defenition of a Gentleman, is a man that can play the accordion.But dont do it

cjshaker

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2018, 07:03:53 PM »
;D ;D my neighbour welded himself a airtank
For the compressor same gauge steel as a regular
tank.... but he made a cube.... that thing tried
to be a ball

LMAO!
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

Heo

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2018, 02:55:58 AM »
Mmmm and he still don’t understand why although
i have tried to explain to him why



The defenition of a Gentleman, is a man that can play the accordion.But dont do it

machoneman

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2018, 09:35:23 AM »
I've seen lots of old Pro Stock intakes (BBC, 351C, 426 Hemi, Boss 429 ) back then but can't ever remember seeing any top plates being reinforced by struts, bridges etc. To be fair, most then did used cast aluminum bases (think: hi-rise T-Rams, mainly Edelbrock) to where the top was custom made to each racer's desire. True all sheet-metal T-rams where years away. Still, many top plates looked pretty thin indeed and I now wonder how these folks may have missed this vibration issue? 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 02:11:30 PM by machoneman »
Bob Maag

jayb

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2018, 01:19:59 PM »
Well, the vibration issue is with the runners, not the top plate, and if you have a cast aluminum base like a tunnel ram, then those runners are going to be fairly thick and rigid, and won't vibrate.  I think this issue started to show up when the sheet metal runners became popular.  I have actually seen a few sheet metal intakes with supporting ribs welded to the outside of the runners.  Now that CNC stuff is coming down a little in price, a billet runner is more practical, and of course can be machined to be thicker, and resist the engine vibration.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 06:02:00 PM by jayb »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

machoneman

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2018, 02:12:38 PM »
Ah, got it Jay and thanks as I misread the real issue.

Well, the vibration issue is with the runners, not the top plate, and if you have a cast aluminum base light a tunnel ram, then those runners are going to be fairly thick and rigid, and won't vibrate.  I think this issue started to show up when the sheet metal runners became popular.  I have actually seen a few sheet metal intakes with supporting ribs welded to the outside of the runners.  Now that CNC stuff is coming down a little in price, a billet runner is more practical, and of course can be machined to be thicker, and resist the engine vibration.
Bob Maag

jayb

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #58 on: March 11, 2018, 12:52:49 PM »
So yesterday after a few delays I finally finished up the billet intake for my 13001 intake adapter for my first customer, along with the top that he wanted.  The billet intake itself looks pretty much like the one that I did for Kurt Neighbor that is shown on the previous page, but of course it has the cutout for the distributor included.  The top is a new design based on the Solidworks screen shots shown on the previous page, but with some modifications based on input here, and also my desire to make it easy to build the linkage for this arrangement.  Linkage setups can be such a pain, and I really wanted to make it easy for this part.  Here's a photo of the top and bottom of the top plate; note the Super Sucker-Like contours machined into the bottom:






Here's a photo of this top in place on the billet intake.  The top seals to the billet intake with an O-ring; the groove is machined into the top of the billet intake plenum:




Notice those three little nubs on the near side of the top plate.  Those are used for the linkage arrangement.  I machined a couple of elbows, fitted them with sealed bearings, and created the rest of the linkage out of spherical rod ends and some 1/4-28 all thread:






Also, even though my customer didn't want to use a plenum spacer, I decided to design and machine one so at least if someone else wanted one I would have the CNC programs ready.  Rather than buying a large block of Delrin ($$$), I used a smaller block and machined the spacer in four parts which bolt together.  This will help keep the costs down, at least somewhat.  Pictures of the spacer are shown below; you can see the O-ring built into the top for sealing:






Here's a shot of the whole stack, with the linkage installed, and also one with my 660 center squirter carbs installed and the linkage hooked up.  The linkage is nice and smooth; it works real well with this setup.






One thing to notice on this is that the carbs are mounted opposite to each other, so that the primaries of the front carb are on the right side of the engine, and the primaries of the second carb are on the left.  So, when opening the linkage, the front carb linkage pulls, and the rear carb linkage pushes.  For a race application staggering the primaries on opposite sides may not be necessary, and it may be desirable to mount the carbs in the same direction, with both primaries on the right side of the engine.  The third "nub" on the top plate allows for that, just by using a shorter tie rod between the elbows.  Here's a picture of the alternate carb mounting and linkage arrangement:




Finally, here's a shot of the whole works, sitting on one of my 13001 intake adapters.  I ran out of white background so I Painted some white background in:




Nothing like a little eye candy under the hood!  This top setup for the billet intake is more expensive than buying one of the Holley tops, but it looks better and I think due to the position of the carbs and the radiused inlet to the plenum, it should perform better too.  I'm looking forward to seeing this setup installed on my customer's engine.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

cattleFEeder

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Re: Billet Sheet Metal Style Intake Manifold for the FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #59 on: March 11, 2018, 01:10:57 PM »
Wow very nice, makes my skill level look like crayon eater level.
Remember, RPM is your friend