Author Topic: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!  (Read 776027 times)

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cobracammer

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1965 on: November 18, 2017, 02:29:22 PM »
OK guys.  I took some advice and need some more...

I finished up fixing the intake carb stud with the Heli coil.  I got everything installed back and tightened down (evenly)  Fired it back up and right to a 2000 RPM Idle.  So I hopped out of the car and plugged the IAC port in the top of the main throttle body....  no change.  Then I decided to plug the IAC valve in Both of the throttle bodies at the same time.....  NO DIFFERENCE.  Then I got a little "cheeky" and decided to cover one whole throttle body with my hands (Mind you, the throttle blades are closed all the way and the car still starts right up and idles to 2000 RPM).

When I covered 1 of the 2 throttle bodies with my hands, the RPM's came back down to 1000 to 1100????  WTH?  After speaking with the FiTech tech, he suggested plugging the Brake booster line that gets its vacuum from the back of the intake (a hose barb).   With it plugged, car went right back to 2000 RPM's.

Called the tech back and explained.  I also told him that there are hardly any items that use the vacuum aside from the Brake booster.  The only other vacuum reference is the Fuel Pressure Regulator and the Vacuum Gauge.  The other 3 vacuum ports on the throttle bode all have brand new Vacuum caps on them, and are definitely not leaking.

He told me he did not know what to tell me aside from finding someone with a smoke machine to find the leak.  unfortunately I don't know anyone with this, but I asked him....  If I have the throttle blades all the way closed and the car starts right up and goes immediately to 2000 RPM, and I can take my hands and block 1 throttle body (even with the throttle blades closed, its sucking SUPER hard).... and it still runs, Wouldn't the vacuum leak have to be huge???  He couldn't say.  Honestly I am at a loss.

The only other interesting thing that has happened is that a high pitched squeal has returned (one that I hadn't heard since the FAST EFI was installed.  When I covered the Throttle body and the RPM's came down to the 1100 to 1000 range, the squeal went away, when I take my hands off and the RPM's shoot up, the squeal comes back.  Sounds like its coming from the front of the engine, but everything is super loud on this engine and you just cant tell.

Any Ideas???  At a total loss at this point.  Was working beautifully for weeks and this happened overnight!!
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

My427stang

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1966 on: November 19, 2017, 09:19:55 AM »
So, you have the engine getting air from somewhere, some questions

1. Are you 100% sure you have both TBs adjusted correctly for idle?
2. Do both TBs have an IAC port?  Shouldn't but if the second one somehow has that port open it could do tha
3.  I think your squeal could be telling you that you have an intake leak, but I would look everywhere I could before I pulled the intake.  IAC, TBs, hoses, etc, evap system (if it still has one), you name it. 

Undoubtedly though, the car is getting air somewhere.  If it wasn't EFI it would stall but the EFI adds fuel to balance it out like a built-in IAC

---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

cobracammer

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1967 on: November 19, 2017, 03:43:50 PM »
Hey Ross.  Its funny you mention the TB.  I though about it last night, and if I backed both throttle adjustment screws all the way out ( closed throttle position), then why when I covered the throttle body at Ifle, was it sucking so hard?  Shouldnt the throttle blades on both be completely closed?  So with a light, I looked at all 8 throttle blades, and they are not completely closed!  They are open enough to slide a tie strap in.  I have photos, but cant post them with photobucket now gone.
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

My427stang

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1968 on: November 20, 2017, 06:56:09 AM »
That'd do it, you should be able to close them all the way

When properly adjusted though, none should be all the way close to where they bind shut, usually one or both sets of primaries will be slightly open to set idle (I would recommend only the one with the IAC, and the remaining should be adjusted just barely short of binding.

8 barrels with that much clearance is quite a bit.  Are there any adjustable stops on the secondaries that you could get those closer at least?  Might be enough to get you where you want to be
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

cobracammer

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1969 on: November 21, 2017, 09:06:55 AM »
Hi Ross,

OK so I double checked and both throttle bodies have the hole for an IAC, but only the primary actually has a functioning IAC.  The secondary throttle body is plugged up from the factory.

I contacted the FiTech people with photos, and it looks to them like they are cracked open just enough (as you said, totally closed and they would bind).  Plus upon further thinking, the car has been running perfect for weeks with the throttle blades even adjusted a little further open (as I had to adjust the system until the IAC is between 6 to 7).

I think what the give away here is that the engine has this high pitched whistle (almost like a bad bearing in a pulley), but the squeal goes away when you rev up the engine.  When I rev the engine, the Vacuum drops... squeal goes away.  As I let off the throttle, the vacuum shoots up and the squeal returns.  I am guessing I have an intake runner leak somewhere under the intake, and its sucking air from the crank case.  This is the possible cause of the whistle/bearing squeal sound (Im guessing).

I replaced the intake gasket a few months ago when I had the oil pooling issue up near the distributor.  After I replaced it, the oil issues stopped, but it seems another issue may have occurred.  I have reached out to Jay for advise on a better way to re-do the intake manifold gasket replacement.  Last go around, I cleaned everything impeccably, coated the intake gaskets with a thin coating of TA-31 all over, but put slightly more around the Water Jacket ports. Used the distributor to make sure the intake was in the correct place before tightening it all down, and then after it was all installed, waited a day or two just to ensure it was all dry before adding back the coolant and re-installing the throttle bodies.  I will wait to hear back about some questions I had regarding re-doing the gaskets, and then it looks like I may have to replace the gaskets again.   
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

babybolt

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1970 on: November 21, 2017, 11:49:04 AM »
Looking through your videos, you have a short air cleaner element.  Those are very restrictive at higher HP levels, though it should'nt cause any problems are idle.

cobracammer

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1971 on: November 21, 2017, 02:39:48 PM »
Yea, I actually replaced it with a K&N style one for better flow, but its the same height.  I recently purchased a custom hood scoop which should allow the use of a much taller air filter.  The odd thing is if you Google Cammer engines, it seems like almost all of them have the low profile air cleaner!  LOL  I guess it always boils down to hood clearance with this bulky engine.  :0)
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

My427stang

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1972 on: November 23, 2017, 08:29:52 AM »
Hi Ross,

OK so I double checked and both throttle bodies have the hole for an IAC, but only the primary actually has a functioning IAC.  The secondary throttle body is plugged up from the factory.

I contacted the FiTech people with photos, and it looks to them like they are cracked open just enough (as you said, totally closed and they would bind).  Plus upon further thinking, the car has been running perfect for weeks with the throttle blades even adjusted a little further open (as I had to adjust the system until the IAC is between 6 to 7).

I think what the give away here is that the engine has this high pitched whistle (almost like a bad bearing in a pulley), but the squeal goes away when you rev up the engine.  When I rev the engine, the Vacuum drops... squeal goes away.  As I let off the throttle, the vacuum shoots up and the squeal returns.  I am guessing I have an intake runner leak somewhere under the intake, and its sucking air from the crank case.  This is the possible cause of the whistle/bearing squeal sound (Im guessing).

I replaced the intake gasket a few months ago when I had the oil pooling issue up near the distributor.  After I replaced it, the oil issues stopped, but it seems another issue may have occurred.  I have reached out to Jay for advise on a better way to re-do the intake manifold gasket replacement.  Last go around, I cleaned everything impeccably, coated the intake gaskets with a thin coating of TA-31 all over, but put slightly more around the Water Jacket ports. Used the distributor to make sure the intake was in the correct place before tightening it all down, and then after it was all installed, waited a day or two just to ensure it was all dry before adding back the coolant and re-installing the throttle bodies.  I will wait to hear back about some questions I had regarding re-doing the gaskets, and then it looks like I may have to replace the gaskets again.

I agree, I didn't realize this was a new issue and it was doing well.  Since you proved it was not the IAC going bad, I would suspect vacuum leak as well.  Must be a pretty decent one as well.  I have never worked on a SOHC, is the bottom of the intake exposed to fresh air?  It'd be very hard to hear an internal vacuum leak
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

machoneman

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1973 on: November 23, 2017, 09:27:41 AM »
May 12th, 2014 to November 21, 2017 and 132 posts! Your patience is noted!

Btw, how many hours of running, driving time or miles on the car since the engine went in? 
Bob Maag

cobracammer

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1974 on: November 23, 2017, 06:04:09 PM »
Hi bob,  about 1 hour total driving on the FASt efi, no miles at all with the Fitech.  Just a few hours idling
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

cobracammer

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1975 on: November 27, 2017, 10:46:23 AM »
These posts are starting to feel cyclical!  LOL.  With the long weekend, I decided to tackle the intake manifold gasket "re-re-do".  To recap, the dual throttle bodies only have 5 vacuum ports in total.  The largest being for the brake booster.  I capped off the brake booster a week or so ago, and it had no affect on the high idle.  This meant it was checked off the list as a possible culprit.  The other vacuum ports are either capped (in which I pulled off the cap to inspect- All brand new and nice tight fit) or there is 1 small one used for the Vacuum gauge (also good fit and new fittings).  As I covered 1 whole throttle body and the car stayed running with the throttle blades closed, this seems like something larger.

Long story short, I pulled the intake, and using brake/parts cleaner and a razor this time (instead of rubbing alcohol like last time), I cleaned the intake manifold.  I then pressure washed it out with tap water, and then sprayed it down completely with parts cleaner again and dried it off with shop towels.  Spotless, and squeaky clean.

As for the heads side, I plugged the oil drain back holes, intake ports and the distributor hole with shop towels to protect from debris.  Then using the Parts/Brake cleaner and a razor, I cleaned the whole area over and over.  I did not notice anything huge jump out at me, but when you pull the intake, some of the gasket goes with the intake and some stays on the heads....  So couldn't see any obvious sign of a leak.

Anyway, after All was clean, I used brake cleaner again and made triple sure it was free of any oil residue, gasket material or TA31 sealant.  I even used the brake cleaner to clean the valley of the block to make sure nothing had fallen into the residual oil and was "hiding".  After this, I cut out the cork triangles that seal up the space on the china walls where the heads overhang.  Using a fair amount of TA31 sealant, I coated the cork triangles on the bottom, side that mates to the head and the side that touches the front timing cover.  After pushing them into place (on all 4 corners), I covered the engine with a piece of plastic and let them dry overnight.  This may seem excessive, but if you try sealing these up wet, they pop right out as soon as you start to tighten down the intake.

The next day, I moved on to the intake gaskets.  Ensuring I had a good fit dry, I coated the mating surface (gasket to head) with a coating of TA31 around each port opening as well as around the gasket material where the bolts go. Like last time, I put it on slightly thicker around the water jacket areas.  Then, I placed the gasket on the head and pressed and adjusted it around until all of the bolt holes and ports were perfectly aligned. About 15 minutes later (after I completed the other side), I went back and pressed around the gaskets again to make sure it was all making good contact and had not moved.

Then I let this sit for about 2 to 3 hours.  By this time, they were sturdy in place and there was no change of them sliding when the intake was put on.  so with more TA31 sealant, I put the mirror amount on the gasket to intake side as well as running a thick tall bead along the back rail and the front rail....  ensuring to go up the cork triangles on all sides (which were now sealed tightly in place and would not pop out!).  Finally, I slowly lined up the intake manifold and lowered it into place.  I did this as slowly as possible because I did not want to move it much before I started to run bolts in.  Once I dropped it down, I inserted the Distributor (to ensure it was properly aligned before tightening it down.  After about 3 taps to the drivers side (literally "Taps"), the distributor slipped right in!.  Going around with a shop light, I could see that the bolt holes were also perfectly aligned and it did not appear that the intake gasket moved at all!  All bolts were cleaned with brake cleaner and a brush to ensure they were spotless to go into the recently cleaned threaded holes in the head (Oh Yes, I went clean crazy cleaning all the threaded holes and vacuuming them out over and over!).  Long story short (again).... all bolts went in no issues at all!  Tightened them down sequentially in a pattern.  I did not torque them down, but rather got them all evenly tight, and then did a quarter turn on the ratchet).  Replaced the carb gaskets, installed the throttle bodies, re-aligned the distributor and all is back to normal.  I will give it a few days before I add back the coolant.

Fingers crossed this worked.....  but what I don't understand is how I could have that large a leak to begin with under the intake manifold. 
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

cammerfe

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1976 on: November 30, 2017, 09:44:10 PM »
I just googled "How to find an engine vacuum leak" and a Popular Mechanics article popped up. Good reading.

KS

cobracammer

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1977 on: December 04, 2017, 08:43:36 AM »
Thank you.  Yes, I have read a few of them, and its between the smoke machine or spraying carb cleaner.  As the issue with the EFI is that it is compensating by adding fuel causing the engine to rev too high, the carb cleaner trick wouldn't work (I would venture to guess).  The smoke machine seems more technical, but as there are literally only like 4 places a Vacuum leak could occur and I was able to check all but 1....  I figured I would just replace the gasket. :0)
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

jmlay

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1978 on: December 04, 2017, 11:54:26 AM »
I purchased a fog machine ,$15 at the local Walmart, for troubleshooting vacuum leaks. Ended up finding the issue before I had converted the machine. I have used dry ice and water in a pinch.
Mike

cobracammer

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1979 on: December 05, 2017, 10:24:48 AM »
That's a good idea.  It looks like many people make their own with a bell jar (or empty new paint can), some hose, nozzles and a bicycle pump  lol  $15.00 sounds cheaper than those parts  :0)
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears