Author Topic: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!  (Read 775818 times)

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cobracammer

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1950 on: October 05, 2017, 03:28:52 PM »
Oh for the love of God  LOL  I just got an email from another tech at FiTech (which I emailed a day to 2 ago), and he said to change to different values.

The tech this morning on the phone said to change the following values if I change Idle Advance (initial timing) to 16 degrees and still keeping my total timing at 30 degrees:

-1000 45kPa to 22 degrees of timing

-WOT 95 kPa to 22 degrees of timing

The Tech that just emailed me said to make both of those values the same as my Idle Advance(initial timing)....  based on the vacuum that is made at those 2 points (which doesn't make sense since 45 kPa and 95kPa are different vacuum levels no?

The more I ask .... the more confused I get.
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

cobracammer

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1951 on: October 06, 2017, 03:20:12 PM »
OK I got this!  lol  I did a ton of reading (not Fitech directions because some of their directions are what confuses a lot of people).


Lets start with Base Timing
Base timing, when you are using the FiTech system to control spark) is the degree of timing that the distributor should physically be at when you install it.  10 Degrees is what they suggest and here is why (for other FiTech users who may have happened upon this forum post):  Base timing is only a degree of timing that the computer will use for Cranking and Firing up.  It will not and should not match the timing light when you are checking the timing unless your Base Timing and your Idle Advance are the same degree of timing.  Also, you need to be aware that when you physically install the distributor (after locking it out), that it be installed at 10 degrees and not back where you had it when the distributor had springs, weights and stop bushings.  The reason for this is if the engine is going to use 10 degrees timing for cranking, and you installed the distributor exactly back where you had it before you locked it out (Say 12 degrees timing), it does not have the ability to spark at 10 degrees.  The system can delay the spark to advance, but can not retard spark past where it physically was installed from the beginning.  So you install the distributor at 10 degrees "physically" for ease of cranking and firing.... then what?

Next is Idle Advance
Another confusing point with FiTech instructions would lead you to believe that this is the amount of advance you want at Idle...  Well yes....  and no  :0) 
Yes because this is the advance from the Base Timing you are looking for.  So if Base Timing (cranking) is at 10 Degrees, as soon as the engine lights off you will most likely want to be at an advanced timing degree for Idle.
No, because this value (unlike its namesake would suggest) is not the number of degrees you want the spark to advance to at idle, but the actual timing value itself.  So say the system used 10 Degrees for Base (Cranking) timing, and the engine starts.  Then you want the initial timing to be 16 Degrees (like in my case).  The value of Idle Advance should be 16 degrees.

OK now on to all in timing (a bit out of order-yes I know).  In my particular case, it is important not to go any higher than 30 degrees of timing all in.  So the value of WOT 3000 95 kPa will be my all in value of 30 degrees of timing. Also, WOT 6000 95kPa will also be 30 Degrees of timing.  This will ensure I am all in at 3000 RPM and anything past it (like 6000 RPM!). 
This all in value (degree in timing) also applies to 3000 45kPa (Should be 30 Degrees) and 6000 45kPa (Should also be 30 Degrees)

OK now on to the pesky (at least for me) 1100 45kPa and 1100 95kPa values.  I got some conflicting information on this which made me do the o'le "2 out of 3".  I called a few times (3) and have decided to go with the more popular answer the techs give me.

I was told that 1100 45kPa and 1100 95kPa should be 16 degrees in my case (same as my Idle Advance).  Its not necessarily what I was thinking.  I though "well, if idle advance was 16 degrees when I'm idling at 1,000 RPM and I am all in at 30 Degrees of timing at 3000 45kPa (and WOT 3000 95kPa), then maybe it should be like 22 Degrees (you know...  half way between my Idle advance of 16 Degrees  and my all in of 30 Degrees).  Well, I was told (by the majority of techs) that it should be 16 Degrees (just like my Idle Advance value).  I think what was confusing me was that it should be 16 degrees, not because of my idle advance value.... but rather coincidentally so.  After speaking with the Tech's (well at least 2 of the 3 so far)... it was said that most engines will have a value of between 15 and 16 degrees at the 1100 timing events.

Now lastly.....even though we covered the Spark inputs expected from the FiTech system, I would like to touch on 2 past points (and I think Ross had gotten correct early on, but I must have just not been getting it).

Lets go back to Base timing.....

Like it was stated before, Base timing is the actual degree that the distributor should be installed at from the beginning and will be used (with no advance) for cranking and fire up.  10 degrees should allow the engine to fire up easier and quicker with less stress on the starter.  As soon as it start (and I know this is recap), the computer starts using the Idle Advance Value as the degree of timing while Idling.  This Idle Advance timing figure should match the balancer when you use a timing light......  If it doesn't, it means your distributor isn't really at 10 degrees of base timing!  2 options from here.  Option 1-You can physically turn your distributor until your timing light shows you the timing degree matches what the handheld shows for Idle Advance.  When this happens, then your distributor will truly be pointing to 10 Degrees and the FiTech system is using a spark Advance to fire the plug at your Idle Advance value (in my case 16 degrees).  Option 2- is you can adjust the base timing value until your timing light matches your Idle advance value on the handheld.  In this option, you are basically guessing 1 degree or 2 at a time to see where your distributor was really installed at.  When you guess (and input) the correct value, them your Idle advance will be correct and the timing light will match the computer screen timing.

Lastly there is an imput Called VR Advance
The last few times I called the Tech line, they tell you not to touch it "Right now".  But what is it?  Well, it has to do with Chain Stretch/ Timing Belt Stretch.  This value will allow you to allow for chain stretch/timing belt stretch at High RPM's (Say 4000 PRM's).  So as an example, Say you have your base timing at 10 degrees (which allows your engine to Crank/Fire up easier with less stress on the starter) and your Idle Advance is 16 Degrees.  Say you used the timing light at 2000 PRM's and the Timing Light matches the Idle Advance timing value on the computer screen (so your all synced up!).  Now, if you rev the engine to 4,000 RPM and use the timing light to verify the FiTech computer, 2 things will happen.  It will match exactly in which case your are done!  Or, Due to Timing Chain Stretch/Timing Belt Stretch, you are off a few 10th's on the timing.  If this is the case, you can adjust the VR advance value to account for this stretch and ensure the timing light matches what the handheld computer shows the FiTech system says(in my example it should 30 degrees total timing at 4000 RPM).

I hope this is helpful to anyone out there who comes across this.  I read through may other forums and see others having the same issues with the directions being confusing.  :0)

« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 01:38:01 PM by cobracammer »
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

My427stang

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1952 on: October 06, 2017, 10:20:17 PM »
Good stuff Jason, thanks!
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Leny Mason

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1953 on: October 08, 2017, 08:27:40 AM »
Hi Jason, one thing you are going to be there best technician when you figure your car out, have you tried this yet and how did it work. Leny Mason

cobracammer

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1954 on: October 30, 2017, 07:29:32 AM »
Hello All,

This weekend, I thought I would jump on the timing adjustments discussed above.  First thing was to check that I was still as 12 degrees Initial (and that the screen matched the timing light).  After this was confirmed, I wanted to be sure that When revved, the timing did not go past 30 degrees total).  So, revved it past 4,000 (incrementally) and we never went past the 30 total!  All good there.  Then finally, I made the timing adjustment on the handheld that was suggested a few pages back in this post....  16 degrees initial.  Made the change on the handheld, and then checked it with the timing light.....  Right on.  Just to test it out (I deserve it at this point), I backed it out down the driveway all the way to the road.  Revved it up a little and dropped the clutch!!!  HOLY HELL!  I smoked the tires so easily that I didn't even know they were spinning!  LOL.  New house and I already left 2 tire rubber marks leading up the driveway!  So I would say the timing adjustments were a success  LOL
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

Leny Mason

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1955 on: November 10, 2017, 07:51:20 AM »
Hi, I am starting on my engine and thinking of your oil leaks what did you do to fix it, I don't remember reading what you found thanks. Leny Mason

cobracammer

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1956 on: November 12, 2017, 08:40:24 PM »
Hi Lenny,

I actually never addressed it fully.  I had a small oil leak coming from the intake manifold area on the passenger side.  It was very minor, but as the oil thinned out from heat, it would drip down my headers and into the slip joints by the collector (causing the exhaust to smoke).  I pulled the intake manifold and resealed all of the gaskets (especially the cork wedges) with the TA31.  This stopped that small leak, but I still have a small leak coming from the back of the engine.  It drips down from between the back of the oil pan and the bell housing.  I snugged all of the oil pan bolts equally, but to no avail.  I believe it is a small leak from the rear main seal.  Don't feel like pulling the transmission, so it will have to wait until further down the road.  I have 10 quarts of oil in my pan (as I haven't installed the oil accumulator yet), it may or may not have anything to do with it.....  but with 10 quarts, a small drip wont run me dry any time soon  :0)
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

cobracammer

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1957 on: November 13, 2017, 08:48:32 AM »
On a side note, I had contacted an EFI tuning guy down here.  He and I decided to rent out a dyno at a performance shop (for about 5 hours) and try to get the efi system running its best.  This weekend, I started the car and the engine would not run lower than 2000 RPM's (even with the IAC adjusted).  Basically, I have a vacuum leak.  As I was laying in bed last night, I remembered I had stripped one of the intake manifold carb stud holes (Front passenger).  Unsure how since its a stud, but it happened.  Me.... being me.  just tightened the other 3 down and figured that it would be "fine".  As the carb studs on this intake are through holes, I am guessing it is probably leaking from the stud itself as well as possibly around the throttle body gasket.  Anyway, since this is really the only place it could be coming from, I plan to pull the throttle bodies this week and helicoil the carb stud hole on the manifold.  Hopefully this fixes the prob since there is no sense renting out the dyno (and the efi tuners time) if it wont even idle correctly.  My dyno session is not until 11/22, so I am hoping to get this fixed and test it this week.

It has been idling beautifully for the last few months.  Hope this fix corrects it.
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

cobracammer

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1958 on: November 14, 2017, 08:16:09 AM »
ok so stopped by AutoZone last night on the way home from work to pick up 5/16" -18 Helicoils for the carb stud.  In the garage, I took a quick look around just to see if there was anything obvious.  I started with the Vacuum hose for the brake booster.  Hose seemed in great shape with no tears, not rubbing on anything, and not near a header.  I have it attached to a hose barb running to the back of the intake manifold.  The throttle bodies do supply barbs for vacuum to the brake booster, but I have those capped. (In the future, I may think about just plugging the intake manifold, and just running the barb to the throttle body reference port, but only if this does not correct the issue).

Then with a bright light, I searched around the throttle bodies to see if there was any visible leak around the gaskets.  I thought if there was a vacuum leak, there may be a darker area where the leak is happening.  But all seemed clean.  Then I checked the vacuum reference line to the fuel pressure regulator.  lines are clean, and tight.

Finally, I moved on to the carb stud in question.  It is worth mentioning that it could not be tightened at all after it was stripped, so I was able to very easily just unscrew the nut with 2 fingers.  Then I actually just pulled the stud out by hand (no threads left, so it doesn't even need to be unscrewed, it just pulled straight out).

I am not sure if this would cause a leak big enough (or how big a leak has to be to keep the idle RPM at 2000), but this is definitely a starting point.  Once I fix this, there are only the 2 or 3 other vacuum areas to systematically check.

Carb stud was junk, so I placed an order for a brand new pack of ARP carb studs.  Should have it buttoned up by Saturday Afternoon.

Any experience with Vacuum leaks would be greatly appreciated.  Where it was located, how it effected your efi, how you went about finding the leak, etc.  Please let me know.
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

jmlay

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1959 on: November 14, 2017, 08:44:40 AM »
Make sure you stuff the ports & get the shop vac out to suck up all of the shavings while drilling & cutting new threads.
Mike

cobracammer

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1960 on: November 14, 2017, 08:50:25 AM »
Thank you.  I wonder why they are through holes?  seems like it would just be one more area that would be susceptible to vacuum leaks.  I was planning to put Kleenex down there to block the port(s).  This was the tissue will block shavings and also be easily sucked out with the shop vac.  I also use a small piece of vacuum hose and duct tape on the shop vac to make a suction line that can get down into tight spaces (Just to be sure nothing is left behind).   
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

My427stang

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1961 on: November 14, 2017, 12:53:21 PM »
I would look at the IAC motor and see if it is stuck.  One easy way would be to disconnect it, it should idle down or stall, if it does not, block it's air feed with your finger.  If it idles down, then the motor is likely bad or stuck

Also, confirm that your throttle plate are closed enough that it cannot idle without IAC?  In most systems, although there is a preferred value, in operation, the motor when fully warmed up should just about stall without the IAC.
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

cobracammer

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1962 on: November 14, 2017, 01:34:31 PM »
Hi Ross,

OK with the engine warmed up, the IAC is at 0 (which I believe is Open all the way) and the engine still idles at 2000 RPM.  There are 2 throttle bodies, and both have the blades all the way closed, the idle stays at 2000.  Leads me to believe there is a Vacuum leak.  Carb Stud had no threads on it, and I pulled straight up on it and it came out.  Had to be air getting past, no?  :0)

Edited Above:

Spoke with FiTech tech- IAC if experiencing a vacuum leak will not be a valid reading.. So with a vacuum leak (even a tiny one he said), the IAC will show that its open even when its really closed-(due to unmetered airflow?)

I explained to him that the carb stud pulled right out, and he laughed and said that it would be more than enough to cause that to happen.  Either way, I will fix it and try again  :0)  fingers crossed.  It was running beautifully for 3 or 4 weeks....I think I will use blue Loctite on the carb studs this go around (as a sealant?)
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 02:03:01 PM by cobracammer »
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

My427stang

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1963 on: November 14, 2017, 01:59:44 PM »
Hi Ross,

OK with the engine warmed up, the IAC is at 0 (which I believe is Closed all the way) and the engine still idles at 2000 RPM.  There are 2 throttle bodies, and both have the blades all the way closed, the idle stays at 2000.  Leads me to believe there is a Vacuum leak.  Carb Stud had no threads on it, and I pulled straight up on it and it came out.  Had to be air getting past, no?  :0)

It certainly could the vacuum leak depending on how much air is being drawn in around the bolt and the base of the TB, and needless to say you have to fix that.

However, sticking your finger in wherever the IAC gets it's air from will tell you if the IAC is really at zero if that wasn't the cause.  The computer may have commanded 0, but if it's stuck it won't actually be there.  To check, stick your finger in the air feed and it'll idle down when you plug the hole.  The reason I bring it up is that an engine your size, idling at 2000 rpm, with all blades closed and the IAC closed seems odd with something as small as a 5/16 bolt that was setting in the hole, although stripped.  That being said, certainly could have been sucking around the base too because of the lack of gasket compression.

Also, if you have been overtightening those studs, better check them all!  Hope it's easy

---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

cobracammer

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1964 on: November 14, 2017, 02:04:30 PM »
Thanks ross.  I think the IAC feed is a hole on top of the throttle body.  I will give it a shot.!!  Thanks again
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears