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FE Power Forums => Member Projects => Topic started by: cobracammer on May 12, 2014, 10:19:27 AM

Title: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 12, 2014, 10:19:27 AM
Well, after years (Literally years) of collecting parts, the time has come to assemble my 427 Cammer.  Its funny to think that this "Thing" which takes up almost the whole guest bedroom in boxes will take up such a small space assembled.  I am 1000% sure my wife will appreciate having the bedroom back (but I think deep down she will miss the smell of cardboard and motor oil in that room)   ;D

OK, so lets get right down to it!  Here is what I have to start putting together....

Robert Pond SOHC Aluminum Race Block (With the oil drain back holes for each head) Bored out to 4.250".  (Thanks to Jay Brown for helping me machine the plug for the
4th cam bearing bore)
Bill Coon Aluminum Cammer Heads (3 angle valve job was completed by Keith Craft out of Arkansas with the Ferrea light weigh valves)
Camshafts from Racedyne  (Lift; Intake .433  Exhaust .430 Duration, seat to seat;  Intake258  Exhaust  258  Lobe Separation; 108)
Crankshaft is RPM Forged 4.250" stroker
Intake manifold is Robert Pond dual plane 2 X 4 Aluminum
EFI is FAST EFI Dual Quad setup (to keep the look of Carbs, but with all the fun of EFI)
Moroso 7 qt oil pan
High Volume Oil pump from Precision Oil Pumps
Timing set from Precision (will be pinning together the stub gears like Jay Browns 519 build)
Eagle forged H beam rods 6.700" with upgrades ARP 12 point bolts
Diamond Pistons (Ceramic coated with tephalon sides )- C.D= 1.330, Pin: .990 x 2.930, CC's: 12.9cc, Compression: 10.8:1
Timing cover, valve covers, and all the little bits and pieces were sourced from Precision Oil Pumps.
T & D Rockers, Spacer clips, and rocker shafts.

I will be taking the block and crank to get Machined /balanced this weekend and will start posting photos soon!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: nitro98red on May 12, 2014, 11:27:32 AM
Sounds like a really cool build. Especially the EFI set up has my interest. Doing a similar build, just trying to get my headers finished before I send out to the builder. Look forward to reading the updates.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 12, 2014, 11:53:30 AM
Thanks!  Yeah, I was thinking about headers too (Have the header flange), but I am actually putting this engine in a 2005 Saleen, so I am not sure how the header tubes will fit around steering joint, etc.  Plus, the EFI setup needs "bungs" welded in the exhaust headers at a certain angle for the O2 sensor....  Will have to fab the headers once installed.  The picture below is the set up I have.  I found this picture doing a google search.  I love the look and I think it will perform great (and does not require any tuning as its a self learning computer)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on May 12, 2014, 01:22:34 PM
A 2005 Saleen?? Holy cow, scary fast wasn't good enough for you? ;D
Seriously, that will be a cool build. Can't wait to see the details. The 2x4 EFI system looks great. Throw an air cleaner on them and you would never know. Those lift numbers are pretty mild. Is that for reliable street duty or are those lobe lift numbers? If they're lobe lift, then they definitely AREN'T mild.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 12, 2014, 01:55:34 PM
Hey Doug,

Thanks.  There was a guy last year that put a 427 SOHC crate engine in a 2005 Mustang.  The article said that they were completely surprised, but it fits right in where the stock 4.6 modular fit (They are almost the same size.  I purchased the saleen as its built off of a 2005 Mustang, but beefier suspension (Extra weight from the cammer) and it looks cooler!  I ordered a T56 Magnum XL 6 speed and a currie 9" rear (Direct replacement for 2005's 8.8"  )....  everything should drop right in with little to no modification.

As far as the cam's, I think those are the lobes specs.  Here is the Racedyne website with the specs...  The cam is supposed to be factory 427 SOHC Spec:  http://www.racedyne.com/Racedyne_Inc./427_SOHC_Cams.html
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 12, 2014, 02:11:59 PM
Those lift numbers are pretty mild. Is that for reliable street duty or are those lobe lift numbers? If they're lobe lift, then they definitely AREN'T mild.

SOHC rockers are only 1.3:1 for ratio, so .433" at the lobe is about .560" at the valve.  That sounds just about like what the stock cams were...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 12, 2014, 02:24:38 PM
I figured Factory Spec would be best as I wont be racing this engine.... just something cool to cruise Ft. Lauderdale Beach in  8)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 13, 2014, 09:01:50 AM
OK, I spoke with the Machine Shop I selected to do the block and crank.  You would think with all the $$ down here in South Florida (Ferrari's, Lamborghini's, Bentley's ), that there would be a half decent Machine Shop to do the work.... But there isn't.  The one I chose is about 45 minutes North of me.  All the ones in Miami were sketchy...  Looked like they drew their shop sign on Cardboard.  Anyway, the Shop I am going with (I am dropping it all off on Saturday) specializes in Ford.  Once back from the Machine Shop, its on to the engine stand for assembly! (Hint... this is when the pictures will start!)

Question.... With a brand new block, does it still need to be line honed?  And if so, wouldn't honing affect the bearing fit? (or does it take off such little material that it wont matter?)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on May 13, 2014, 09:33:53 AM
It's always a wise idea to have the main bearing bores checked and honed on a new block. It doesn't affect bearing fit because a little material is taken off the caps which makes the bore smaller, so honing then brings it back to specs.

I wasn't aware of the small SOHC rocker ratio...being a mere mortal who only dreams of owning an SOHC ;D

So what did you do with the Saleen motor?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 13, 2014, 10:07:03 AM
Hi Doug,  Good to know on the Honing.  Thanks.  As for the Saleen Modular Motor, I am probably going to pull out the whole drive train and sell it.  Motor, 5 speed Tremec 3036(?) Driveshaft and 8.8 rear.  Don't need them anymore and will take up too much room to keep in the garage.  I am going to wait until I have the cammer engine built before I pull out the stock motor.  I purchased an AJE K member specific to 2005 Mustang GT's with BBF motor mounts....  Will swap the stock K member out when I pull the Motor to make the reinstall on the AJE easier (instructions say it takes like 1 hour to swap it out as it uses all the stock suspension and all bolts back into the same locations).  Then with the BBF motor mounts on, I will drop the cammer in and Let her down!  Of note, I have been going back and forth with AJE racing as they advertise their BBF motor mounts work with any FE engine.  I found out that the 427 FE Side Oiler had the slightest change to motor mount holes on the block, so thay are currently working on engineering their current design to work with Side Oilers.  I personally will just weld and shave the ones I have to fit (not a huge modification)... 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 13, 2014, 10:49:02 AM
OK actually just got a message from James over at AJE racing in regards to the Motor Mounts for the Cammer engine.  They had gone back and forth, and they feel (as do I now that I'm thinking about it) is to trim the Drivers side motor mount I have in order to accept the FE Side Oiler block.  Since the Drivers side motor mount is just like any other FE mount, that side mates perfectly to the motor mount.  The drivers side needs a bit of a trim and drill.  I will need to use a cut off wheel to trim the Driver side rear portion of the mount (Closest to the firewall) as it interferes with one of the screw in oil galley "bumps".  The second part will be making a card board template and transferring the exiting holes from the motor mount onto it.  Then place the cardboard mock up against the block and locate the bolt hole with a small piece of wire.  Once I have a location, I can use a razor to cut out where the bolt needs to go.

Having the cardboard template, I just need to close up the existing hole that will not be used on the metal motor mount with my Mig welder (to retain strength... the new hole and the existing hole will be fairly close to one another, so want to make sure it retains its strength).

As James at AJE put it, by doing this, you can ensure that the motor will be mounted in the AJE tubular K member how the engineers designed it... which puts the back of the FE block exactly where the back of the stock modular engine is now...

AND FOR MORE GOOD NEWS!!!  Also received an email update from Modern Driveline, which is an awesome company that has helped me with the Transmission fitment (not everyday someone puts an FE in a late model).  The gentleman named Paul over there is just waiting on a bell housing spacer that was being made by Tremec.  This spacer allows the Tremec T56 Magnum XL to be used on a Ford FE engine without pulling the tranny apart to correct the length of the input shaft.  Shifter location will be exactly where it is now, so its just basically dropping the old one out and putting the 6 speed monster in!  This is why I chose the 2005 Saleen....  With AJE racing making a Tubular K Member with Ford FE motor mounts that locate an old FE block right where the Modular one is located...... and Tremec making a 6 speed T56 Bell housing adapter that will let me use the existing Hydraulic throw out bearing (and bolt in exactly where the Stock tranny sits....  should put me on the road faster to have some fun.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on May 13, 2014, 10:49:28 AM
I'm not sure what the motor mount changes are for the SO that you spoke of. All FE mounts are the same from '65 on up and aftermarket blocks all use this common 4 bolt design...including SOHCs as far as I know of. The 427 SO in my Mach bolted right up to the stock mounts.

If you were closer, I'd take that Saleen drivetrain off your hands for my '09 GT :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on May 13, 2014, 10:58:14 AM
I suppose the mounts are slightly different than factory, so I can see them interfering with the side passage and ports. You sure have this thought through well enough. Good strategy to limit surprises. It should be an awesome ride when your done.

And with SOHC emblems on the side, most people will think "Big deal, Shelbys have DOHC". Little will they know :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on May 13, 2014, 11:27:53 AM
This project blows my mind.
I had a 2005 Saleen and dug it but I never thought of doing what you're going to do.
Can't wait to see it happen.
Good luck!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 13, 2014, 12:38:23 PM
Yea should be a fun to get groceries  :0)

As far as the motor mounts, all FE's were the same with the exception of the Side Oiler.  Due to the oil galley on the drivers side, the forward most bottom bolt hole had to be moved 1/4 inch from the usual FE stock location.  Then, on the same side but the rear bottom mount hole, there is one of the side oilers distinct oil galley plugs (I think there are 3 or 4 in all along the drivers side of the block).  This plug interferes with the mount sitting flush, so by cutting a corner off at an angle, you can get the mount to sit flush.  2 Small mods for the peace of mind that these mounts used with AJE's K member will locate the block exactly where I need it.  :0)

Just for fun Doug, I should put a V6 badge on the side......I think the dual center exhaust might be a dead give away.  Speaking of, I was thinking I could possibly even modify the stock Saleen headers.  Possibly cut them straight off about 3-4" from the 4.6's header flange and then piece in exhaust tube to mate up with the SOHC header flange?  I crawled under there last night, and there seems to already be 2 "bungs" welded on the exhaust.  Maybe by doing this, I can use their bung placement for the FAST EFI O2 sensors?  All with minimal welding since they are already designed to work with this chassis.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Drew Pojedinec on May 13, 2014, 01:18:49 PM
Wow I'm excited for you... this is an awesome thing.
I pine for the day I can afford just a 427 block :P

It'll be fun seeing the people scratching their heads trying to figure out what you've got going on under the hood.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 13, 2014, 02:32:20 PM
OK, in order to prep a little (and start reducing a room full of boxes into completed assemblies, I put together the rear end.  Like I mentioned before, Currie offers a ford 9" drop in replacement with all stock 2005 Mustang GT mounts welded in place already.  This is a super nice piece.  31 spline axles, Large heavy duty bearings, and even has a backing plate so stock brakes and ABS sensor can be remounted.  Now as I was able to pull each piece out of room separately, once together.... Hernia!
Ford 3rd member Posi-unit was source from Speedway Motors.  After putting the 3rd member into the Currie housing, I torqued the lock nuts down at 20 ft Lbs in a crisscross pattern.  Then a final torque or 40 ft Lbs.  I actually ordered a speedway gasket that does not need RTV to make the seal, so this was actually not a messy job at all.
31 spline axles, which were part of the Currie package, slid right into place.  I am thinking this weekend of painting the housing an aluminum color, and the 3rd member in black... to keep with the stock theme.  I will take pictures this evening and post here.  Below is a picture my Saleen who will be getting an official name once this transplant takes place (any ideas on a name would be greatly appreciated):
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: mike7570 on May 13, 2014, 06:17:55 PM
I hope you had your Wheaties before you try to pick up a fully assembled 9"
maybe  "Hernia" is appropriate name.

I found out recently how heavy they can be.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on May 13, 2014, 08:24:51 PM
As far as the motor mounts, all FE's were the same with the exception of the Side Oiler.  Due to the oil galley on the drivers side, the forward most bottom bolt hole had to be moved 1/4 inch from the usual FE stock location.

Funny, I have never noticed the difference before, and I've installed a few sideoiler engines using stock 390/428 motor mounts. I'd check my blocks but they are both at the machine shop and my SOG block is bagged and boxed.

Those Saleens are really nice cars! As are the Roush cars. I test drove both, but settled on my GT because I got a steal on it with 3000 miles on the odometer and extended warranty. I added a Saleen front grille, front spoiler and a Roush rear spoiler and it helped high speed stability. They are a blast to drive! I'd make sure that grocery store is at least 10-15 miles away ;D

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 14, 2014, 08:13:31 AM
OK so here are 2 pictures.  One is of the Currie rear end set up (Specifically for the 2005 Saleen) and the other is what a cammer engine looks like all in boxes....  I moved everything into the garage for final assembly.

Also of note, I went ahead and ordered a bolt kit from river city bolts (found them on ebay).  I got an assortment of all Grade 8 zinc yellow bolts in fine and course threads with grade 8 zinc yellow washers.... figured it would be perfect to have these all on hand rather than to run back and forth to the hardware store.  The guarantee that every bolt I will need for assembly only cost me about $110.00..... However, the mail lady hates me as every other day I am getting something that barely I can pick up...  I smell a Christmas tip coming  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 14, 2014, 08:29:46 AM
Also wanted to show what the Motor mounts look like as well as why they the drivers side needs to be modified.  See below for the pictures:
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 14, 2014, 11:12:50 AM
Question:  I want to make sure I get the correct compression ratio of 10.8:1 (Should be able to run well on 92 octane right?)
I am not quite sure how to compute, so here is what I have:

Pistons- C.D= 1.330, Pin: .990 x 2.930, CC's: 12.9cc, Compression: 10.8:1 (That's the compression ratio they have listed for these pistons)
Block Deck Height = 10.170
Rods = 6.700"
Stroke = 4.250"
Gasket thickness = I believe this is Cosmetics 4.400 bore with a thickness of 0.080"

So the Question is.... does this work out to to be 10.8:1?  If not, does the deck height need to be cut down?  Thinner gasket?  Wanted to figure this out before I drop the block off this Saturday...... Want to get it to as close to 10.8:1 as possible

Also, when having the block honed, do you have to let the machine shop know any final measurements?  Say the spec for a Cammer (Side Oiler) needs to have a specific main bearing clearance?  (I found somewhere online that blueprinting Spec for a FE block was in the range of (0.0025" to 0.0030").???
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 14, 2014, 01:24:21 PM
Actually got this from Diamond Pistons, but I believe they seem to be using OEM deck height of 10.155 instead of Robert Ponds Deck height of 10.170.... but still don't see where they get 10.8:1
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Barry_R on May 14, 2014, 07:09:16 PM
The aluminum block will want main clearances tighter than an iron block.  Keep the line hone on the small side of spec 'cuz the aluminum will grow with heat.  The block deck height should be determined for sure before making pistons - a set for the OEM 10.17 will be potential positive of the deck in a 10.155 Pond block.  "Measure once..."
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 14, 2014, 10:56:06 PM
10.17 is the stock FE deck height.  The Shelby block is 10.15" for deck height, and I thought that the Pond block was 10.15" also.  Like Barry says, you should measure to be sure, or call Pond to find out.  At least mock up the crank, a rod and a piston, and see where you are relative to the deck.

Using your numbers, deck of the piston is (4.25/2) + 6.700 + 1.33 = 10.155.  This means that your pistons will be at zero deck if the block deck is 10.155.

Chamber volume on the SOHC heads is 120cc.  I'm not sure if Cometic makes an SOHC head gasket with .080" thickness; I supposed it could be custom ordered, but most of them are .040" thick.  Again, you should measure the thickness. 

So, putting all that together, and assuming a 10.155 deck height, and a .040" thick head gasket, I get a compression ratio of 9.5:1.  Way, way too low for ANY SOHC engine.

Are you sure about the piston dome volume of 12.9cc?  That is really, really low for an SOHC piston.  Most of them come in around 35-38 cc.  Also, the cam specs you listed in the original post of 258/258 seat to seat can't possibly be correct.  That is way, way too low for duration.  That might be duration at .050", but not seat to seat.  If that is the case, do you have the seat to seat duration numbers?

I think you need to start measuring and checking things before you get too far along on this build.  A lot of the specifications you are putting out just don't add up, and you need to be sure about all that stuff before you assemble the engine.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 15, 2014, 09:17:37 AM
Hi Jay,

Yea it was starting to worry me.  I am cutting and pasting these numbers directly off of the websites in which I purchased.

Robert Pond Block:
"Our SOHC Ford blocks are manufactured in both
 aluminum and cast iron. The specifics are the
 same as our wedge block, except they weigh 2 to 3
 pounds more due to no lifter provisions and have a
 deck height of 10.170 instead of 10.155. Also, there are
 no oil passages in the lifter valley area. However,
 there is an oil return hole in the back of the block
 that is unique to the SOHC head."

From Pistons (Diamond):

• Designed to fit OEM 427 S.O.H.C. Hemi engines
• Made from 2618 alloy for street/strip use
Compression ratios calculated at 0.011” to 0.015” bore depth with 10.170” deck height
• Premium 8620 material wrist pins
• Gasket volume: 10.1cc’s
• Top ring down dimension: 0.480”
• Standard ring package: 1/16” x 1/16” x 3/16”
• Valve relief depth: 0.301” intake and 0.142” exhaust

Bore    Stroke       Rod          C.D.       Weight        PIN                   CC's        Compression Ratio (98cc) 
4.250    4.250     6.700      1.330      call          .990 x 2.930      12.9cc                  10.8 to 1


Racedyne (Cams spec card):

Cam Specs

Factory:

Lift;  Intake .433  Exhaust .430

Duration, seat to seat;  Intake258  Exhaust  258

Lobe Separation; 108



OK so (Please catch me if I am wrong) the Robert Pond block has a deck height of 10.170".  The Piston's I ordered from Diamond say that "Compression ratios calculated at 0.011” to 0.015” bore depth with 10.170” deck height"  (so it seems these pistons were made with the assumption that the deck height was 10.170"???

And the cam specs are a cut and past from Racedynes website.  Please tell me what's wrong here.  From what I see, it would seem that the deck should NOT be milled down to 10.155 (Due to the pistons ordered?)
 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 15, 2014, 09:39:06 AM
Got nervous and called Diamond Pistons....  They said they were unsure what the 12.9cc's are listed on their catalog, but the Piston Dome volume is 33cc's!

I worked it out with him on the phone and he said that if the Block is currently at 10.170 deck height, it works out to 10.6:1 compression ratio (given that Jay was correct that the head gasket thickness is 0.040"

If I deck the block 0.008, it comes in right at 10.8 : 1 compression ratio.... Does this sound correct?  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 15, 2014, 09:58:20 AM
33ccs is more like it for the piston dome volume; that is a believable number.  Next, I would suggest you call Racedyne and ask about the seat to seat duration number, because that is certainly not correct either.  You could measure the seat to seat duration as well, if you have some V-blocks and a dial indicator with a point on the end.  Also, despite what Pond's website says, I'd call Robert as well and ask about the deck height, or better yet measure it.  I don't think I'd deck the block if I were you; you will end up cutting off the tops of the sleeves that way, then if you ever have to replace one of the sleeves the new one will be higher than the others, and you'll have to deck the block again. 

I'm guessing that your combination will work, but your original question was will it run on pump gas, and until you've got the compression ratio and cam nailed down, it will be hard to say for sure...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 15, 2014, 11:57:01 AM
Hey Jay,

I contacted racedyne, and I received this:

"They are correct but the OEM grind has long ramps.  They run quite well on anything even close to stock."

If I remember correctly, this gentleman outsources these cams...  I have the actual cam card at home that I will pull out tonight and double check.  I had the heads completed by Keith Craft (Springs, retainers, valves, etc) and he asked for a copy of the cam card so he knew what we were working with.... and he didn't remark.

My guess is that the website is incorrect (as you said) and that the cam card prob. has better (more accurate information).

I also have word out to Robert Pond to make sure the deck height is 10.170"

I can't thank you and everyone enough for assisting me through this.  I am sure I am not the smartest guy making this my first engine assembly, but I'm DYING to get this engine running!   ;D

Ill post again tonight when I have my cam card (Possible that I can just scan it and post the picture)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 15, 2014, 12:15:38 PM
BTW, Thank you Barry.  I have been reading your book I purchased a few months ago. Very well put together.  Thanks again
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 15, 2014, 01:00:35 PM
I would be rather circumspect about the cam card.  For quite some time Comp Cams had inaccurate cam cards for their SOHC cams.  Racedyne may be the same way.  This is probably a little disheartening, because as engine builders we rely on information from the manufacturers to be correct.  But believe me, I've been through this more than once and the SOHC is a whole different animal; you can't necessarily rely on anything printed about it.  I would really suggest that you measure the cams.  The guy at Racedyne is correct, the stock cams do have long ramps.  But as soon as the lash is taken up, you are off the ramp and the valve is starting to open.  That seat to seat number is definitely going to be bigger than 254 if those cams are close to the stock ones...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 15, 2014, 01:04:03 PM
I found this with a little digging on the internet.  Does this look more like a 427 SOHC factory cam?

                                      Intake               Exhaust
Opening at .100 valve        22 BTC               58 BBC

Closing at .100 valve         40 ABC                4 ATC

Duration                           328                    328

Overlap                                       112

Valve lift-zero lash                                      .565

lash cold                           .015                    .025

Rocker ratio: Minimum 1.227 Maximum 1.307
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 15, 2014, 02:35:51 PM
Yes, those look like the factory cam specs.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 15, 2014, 02:58:20 PM
Wow. they seem way off.  I will check when I get home.  I would hate to have to buy new cams.... these were $1,095.00 and they were the first part I purchased back in 2010  :0(
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 15, 2014, 06:46:47 PM


So I guess its not that far off..... question is
33ccs is more like it for the piston dome volume; that is a believable number.  Next, I would suggest you call Racedyne and ask about the seat to seat duration number, because that is certainly not correct either.  You could measure the seat to seat duration as well, if you have some V-blocks and a dial indicator with a point on the end.  Also, despite what Pond's website says, I'd call Robert as well and ask about the deck height, or better yet measure it.  I don't think I'd deck the block if I were you; you will end up cutting off the tops of the sleeves that way, then if you ever have to replace one of the sleeves the new one will be higher than the others, and you'll have to deck the block again. 

I'm guessing that your combination will work, but your original question was will it run on pump gas, and until you've got the compression ratio and cam nailed down, it will be hard to say for sure...

OK...  The cam card says:

Installed Timing:  0
Intake Lift:  432                Exhaust Lift:  432
Intake Duration:  258       Exhaust Duration:  258
Intake Opens:  21 BTDC    Exhaust Opens: 57 BBDC
Intake Close:  57 ABDC    Exhaust Closes:  21 ATDC

LCA: 108
Overlap: 42

Now just to get some additional info, I emailed the techs at CompCams.  They wrote back with this:

"The stock specs were around 255 duration at .050 with ..565 lift on a 112 LSA"

So knowing this Jay, will my setup work?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 15, 2014, 07:47:54 PM
It looks like the specs on the cam card for duration are actually for duration at .050".  So, if that is the case those cams should be fine - Jay
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 15, 2014, 08:17:25 PM
OK, so given the deck height at 10.170 (Still awaiting word from Pond on that), and using a compression ratio calculator, I get :  11.26: 1

I have attached a screen shot of the calculation.  Is this correct?  and if so (Because it sounds freaking awesome) will that run on 92 octane?  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 15, 2014, 11:44:55 PM
I get the same numbers for static compression.  How well the engine will run on pump fuel is better predicted by the dynamic compression ratio.  In order to figure that, you need the real seat to seat timing for the cam.  And I'm afraid I don't know what that is for the factory SOHC cams.  My guess, though, is that it is around 300 degrees, which would leave you with a DCR of around 8:1.  That is plenty low to run pump premium; in fact, you could probably use even more compression and still run pump fuel easily, if my guess on the seat to seat duration is correct.

I hate to be repetitive, but you really need to measure those cams to know for sure.  Do you have a dial indicator?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 16, 2014, 07:20:47 AM
Hey Jay,

I do not have a dial indicator yet.  I am placing a comprehensive order at Jegs to get all the lube, sealant, tools, etc. for the build.  I have a dial indicator as well as a magnetic base for it as well.  I will let you know when it comes in.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 16, 2014, 03:22:49 PM
OK!!!  I found this while doing a little research.  This seems to be the blueprinting specifications for a 427 SOHC (I just posted the specific pages, but I have the whole manual).  Are these specs accurate for this build?  This lists all the bearing and journal clearances...  This would make life a little easier during assembly...  Wasn't sure because im sure Aluminum acts completely different than Iron when heated?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 17, 2014, 11:23:52 PM
Ok. Block and crank are at the Machine Shop!  Was a little bit scary dropping off the "Babies" with someone I don't really know  LOL
I got a chance to speak with the owner of the race engine shop that is doing the machine work.  He stated that although Aluminum race blocks are really expensive, they are not machined really all that well.  He is going to Bore the block out to the required 4.250" (I forgot to bring the head gaskets for the Boring process), He will balance the crankshaft, line hone the block and install the cam journal bearings.  It will be 2 weeks before I get them back, but its perfect as I just ordered all needed tools, lubes and etc. from Jegs in order to make this build seamless.

Pictures on the Engine stand ready for assembly next!

BTW, can anyone take a look at my previous entry (picture) and tell me if all of those specifications will work for blueprinting during assembly?  I got them from the old 60's 427 SOHC service and Maintenance manual????
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 22, 2014, 07:48:27 AM
OK Mr. Pond from Robert Pond Motorsports got back to me in regards to the Main Journal Bearing clearance.  He states that on his aluminum SOHC blocks, he recommends a clearance of between 0.0025 and 0.003.  The original specs for the SOHC were between 0.002 to 0.003, so I don't see much difference there due to the block being aluminum instead of Iron. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 23, 2014, 11:26:21 AM
Progress!  Got my shipment from Modern Driveline Yesterday.  Those guys are awesome.  Got my T56 XL with Ford FE Bellhousing and a custom bellhousing spacer made by Tremec so that it will all mount seamlessly on a Ford FE Engine (CAMMER!)..Twin disc racing clutch, everything down to the knob supplied by Modern Driveline.  Should slip right into the existing shifter boot on the Saleen. 
Bringing the Head gaskets to the Machine shop tomorrow so Tim at Mustang Racing Performance can start my machine work on the block and crank.... If all works out as it's supposed to, I will have it all back Next Saturday.

Also got my shipment from Jegs with indicators, gauges, lubes, degree wheels, everything!  Now that I have a dial indicator, I should be able to accurately measure the cam lobes.  Jay, when you have a second, can you tell me how I can go about double checking those with the dial indicator?

More to come.... stay tuned!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 24, 2014, 10:19:05 PM
Stopped by the machine shop today..... little hiccup.  They do not have the torque plate measuring 4.250" for the FE engine and had to order it.  Says it is going to be a few more weeks.... :0(  Anyway, said he would go ahead and balance the crank while he is waiting....

And in another small world, I was explaining to this gentleman what the block was going to be used for... SOHC, and how I got the heads cnc'd in Arkansas by Keith Craft.  At this point he stops me to tell me that he is friends and partners with Keith Crafts old partner???  How small is this world?  Said the guys name was Bill Koontz (Prob. spelling it wrong).... but just goes to show you how small the FE world really is....

Purchased Gray VHT paint for the rear end housing and Black VHT for the 3rd member.... will be painting it and putting up pictures this weekend.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 25, 2014, 08:32:44 AM
He probably meant Jim Kuntz.  Kuntz and Craft partnered for a while, and then split up and now run different shops.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 26, 2014, 04:59:23 PM
Small world indeed!
Anyway, now that I had some time this weekend, I used the VHT silver/grey for the axle housing and a Black VHT for the 3rd member.  I wanted to try and keep the stock color scheme, all the while making this a Monster within a monster! 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 29, 2014, 08:37:59 AM
OK, all the back ordered items from Jegs arrived yesterday.  I have all the tools and lubes I think I will need to assemble as soon as the machine shops gives it back....

Dial indicator with magnetic base
Digital Calipers
Bore dial gauge
Thread chasers (fine and course)
Rubber dead blow hammer
Ring compression tool from ARP at 4.250"
Piston stop
degree wheel with pointer
Crank socket tool
Red Line assembly lube
ARP torque lube
Nitrile gloves
piston ring file
feeler gauge (to lash the rocker arms and check clearance between rods)
Engine Stand bolts
Piston Ring tool (to make sure they sit level in the bore when filing to size)
Bronze Distributor gear (as Precision oil pumps states that with the 427 SOHC stub cam, you have to use a bronze distributor gear!!!  Almost missed that little tid bit)
Dampner install tool
Thread locker
Motorcraft Sealant (the one for diesel applications that Jay suggested in his previous build)
Engine storage bag (as I am sure this is going to be a many day event and not a quickie... this I need to keep covered up due to dust)

Not sure if I missed anything, but my goal was to have EVERYTHING on hand so this goes smoothly.

:0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on May 29, 2014, 09:07:16 AM
What? No bag of rags. ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 29, 2014, 02:55:27 PM
What? No bag of rags. ;D

Figured I would get basic shop towels from home depot (blue cloth-like to reduce dust?)  LOL  I would venture to guess you cannot just use regular paper towels from the kitchen   ???
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on May 29, 2014, 11:32:56 PM
I'm still amazed that you're tackling an SOHC for your first engine build.
I also get the feeling that you would not be the least bit afraid if Hannibal Lecter himself were to appear directly in front of you...lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 30, 2014, 09:11:30 AM
Hey Doug,

Its not a matter of being afraid of this engine.... its the fact that everyone I spoke to wants $5,000 or more to assemble it!  That's just ridiculous.  I ran a grand total for all the parts for this engine and I am right at $40,000.00.  When I called engine builders, most had no clue what a SOHC is, but all say c'mon in and we'll do the build.  The others (who are experienced in Cammer engines... but across the country and not located anywhere near me.... are at 5k and as high as 6K (guy in long island).

At this point, I really cannot spend anymore money and I just want to get this thing build and go on a power tour!

NERVOUS as HELL to build this engine..... believe me
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on May 30, 2014, 09:47:41 AM
Your build could not come at a better time IMO. 

Jay has been most gracious in providing needed guidance on yes, a complicated build, especially all the front drive stuff. Having built over the years lots of engine types (FE, BBC, SBF, SBC, then supercharged early 392 Hemis and 417 Donovans and more)  I'd also be lost on a Cammer's front end stuff. At $40K, I'm sure you will question every step and put down the tools if it doesn't look or feel right. 

Earlier on, mention was made of a book by Jay on "how-to" do a Cammer. Seeing his pics of late in this a series of posts with the drive stuff and his well-written texts indicates a real need for Jay to eventually do that book. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 30, 2014, 03:17:16 PM
LOl  Its funny you should say that!  I have been cutting and pasting jays words of wisdom into a cheat sheet for my build.  Any little tip, trick, anything.....  He has been most gracious to answer any question I have had in regards to this build .   I would guess with Bill coon, Dove, and Robert Pond all making heads for this engine.... they will gain popularity....  A book by Mr. Jay Brown on Cammers will definitely be a best seller  LOL  I would def. be in line to buy!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 02, 2014, 09:49:55 AM
OK... so this weekend (while still waiting on the machine shop to return my block and crank), I decided to install the monster of a 9" rear end by Currie.   HOLY CRAP is this thing heavy.  After the miserable experience of trying to fill the old 8.8 with fluid while installed... I decided it best to fill the housing with Vavoline gear oil (with the additive) prior to install.  I had royal purple purchased, but apparently with a Posi unit, the synthetic wrecks it.  So I had to scadadle back to the auto parts store and exchange it for the Valvoline.

Now, on a Saleen, there was the panhard bar, rear sway bar, tortion bars, shock mounts, and a lovely spring loaded tortion type bar that attaches to the top of the housing ("Lovely" was used as this is a PG forum)... and let us not forget the brakes with ABS sensors...

After getting all of this disconnected.... the 8.8 came out largely without a hitch....... so then I moved on to the Currie 9".

After rolling it into position on a hydraulic jack, I think to myself for a few minutes (on my creeper looking up).... I wonder if you have to re-install this in any particular order?  After deep meditation, I decided that the panhard bar needs to be slid into position within the braket on the housing first.  Otherwise there would be no way to maneuver it in later.  From there, I reattach the tortion bars on both sides, then the shock on both sides, and then..... I realize I am unable to get the springs back on their perches (HAHAHA  the springs I spend 45 minutes washing so they were back to bright red and new again)...... After removing the shocks, I was able to lower it enough to put springs on perches and jack back up to re-install the shocks.

Then, having located the panhard bar first, decided it should be bolted down next.  NO LUCK.  It would not align properly to let the bolt through.  Back to meditation on my sears creeper looking up...... Got it.  That funky little spring loaded tortion bar that attached to the top of the housing (once attached) would rotate the housing just enough forward that the panhard bar would align within its bracket.

OK gentlemen.... we have all done it.  So frustrated at something seeming so simple, that you want to scream, cry and attack the part...........  the stupid tortion bracket is spring loaded.  I am able to pull it down (using both hands) but no 3rd hand to insert the bolt  HAHAHA.  Finally, I ask my wife to assist (all 115 pounds of "I don't wanna touch that, its dirty!")   Finally after some coaxing, she inserts 1 inch of the bolt and streaks out of the garage.  LOL  I'll take it!  7 hours later in 90 degree South Florida heat!!! Done!  see below   8)  Next stop is the Tremec T56 XL swap, (unless the machine shop finishes the block and crank so I can start assembly of the Cammer!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 11, 2014, 01:57:29 PM
I seriously never thought it was going to take almost a month to get the machine work done.  I spoke to the owner yesterday, and the crankshaft was being balanced in the machine as we spoke.....  the block was still awaiting the 427 FE torque plate they ordered (to arrive by tomorrow) and he said he would jump right on it.  I seriously doubt this weekend, but I am assuming next weekend.

in another thought....  I was going to install the Tremec T56XL this weekend so I could take the measurements for the aluminum driveshaft and get it ordered, but then had a thought.....  In order to ensure this goes super smooth, I will want to pull the old Tremec 3060 out of the car, and drop a plum-bob down off of the flywheel on the stock motor and make a mark on a piece of tape on the floor.  This way when I install the Cammer engine, I can make sure it is aligned exactly where the stock modular motor sat.  The entire package (which included a custom spacer from Tremec to work with a Ford FE motor) runs off of the premise that the Ford FE will be located exactly where the Modular sits now.  I definitely only want to pull the transmission 1 time, so I think by measuring and marking the take on the floor, I will cut down on a lot of guess work.

All in all, its only going to cost me the time it takes to make the driveshaft.  Small price to pay.  8)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on June 11, 2014, 05:51:20 PM
I`m of the mind set that you need to pretty much have everything in the car and load the suspension
when you measure the driveshaft.
A 1/4" can ruin the whole day. jmho
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Lenz on June 12, 2014, 02:18:32 PM
I`m of the mind set that you need to pretty much have everything in the car and load the suspension
when you measure the driveshaft.
A 1/4" can ruin the whole day. jmho

I'll jump on the jmho train here. 

I had to have a new driveshaft made for my Galaxie as part of my build since I switched to a toploader in place of a 3 speed overdrive.  The owner at my local shop (Erie Drivetrain) did not hesitate to give me a formula for taking the length measurement (with everthing else in place as much as possible and the suspension loaded):

In my case it was the yoke into the trans output shaft until it stops, pull it back 1 1/4".  The measurement center to center where the u-joints will be was the length needed. 

Don't know about the depth and pull back part for the Tremec, guess it would be a good idea to contact your shop to find out how they'd have you go about getting the number you need.  I do believe you need to be fairly precise though, 'specially with the beast you're strapping in :)
 


Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 18, 2014, 03:02:54 PM
OK I just got off the phone with the machine shop.  Its been over a month now since I dropped off the work to be done, and it seems that nothing at all has been done...  Nothings been touched.  I am trying to stay calm.... so I tell him, "No worries, I will swing in this weekend and pick it all up.  I understand your swamped and maybe it would be easier if I just bring it somewhere else."

His reply was something along the lines of "what? you think your going to get it done any faster elsewhere?"  At this point, I do not believe there was a reason to tell me 1 but possibly 2 weeks at the max.... when here we are at like week 5 and nothing has been touched.  Am I missing something?  Your a business.  Your not doing me a favor!  Do your Job.  If you say 1 to 2 weeks... do it in that time frame.  If you would have told me 5 or more weeks, I would have just driven it a bit further north and gotten it done in another county.  WTF?  I think what makes me the most angry is that its just no big deal to say  " nope not this week, maybe next...."

Well I explained (in a very even tone which is hard for me)...  I understand you don't think you are able to finish it all by this weekend, but if you could that would be greatly appreciated, otherwise I will swing in and just pick it all up.....

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: MRadke on June 18, 2014, 03:52:56 PM
I don't know you, the shop or the situation.  There is an old saying in the repair business that applies more often then not.

 'Cheap, Fast or Good, pick any two' 

If it's a very good shop, he may very well be worth waiting for.  Nothing good usually comes from a rushed job.

My 2 cents
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on June 18, 2014, 04:04:40 PM
You know, my first thought/response was "yeah pick your stuff up".
Then I thought about my own situation and how long I waited for things to get done.
BUT, I had very good info on the shop that was doing my work that they were first rate.
Also in my talks with them I was completely satisfied.
In the end it wasn't a big deal. But when I was waiting I was very anxious and it seemed to take forever.
Maybe a visit just before closing with a few beers in tow would work for both of you. :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Drew Pojedinec on June 18, 2014, 04:07:02 PM
He's building a SOHC 427.... I think cheap probably went out the door years ago :P
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on June 18, 2014, 08:12:38 PM
No reputable shop should promise the work done in 1-2 weeks, and then not have anything done in 5 weeks while at the same time acting like they didn't do anything wrong.  Got get your stuff, Jason...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 19, 2014, 08:41:19 AM
Thanks everyone.  Just out of curiosity, how long does machining take?  I completely understand (due to the fact that he had to order a torque plate for  an FE with the bore I want), but the torque plate came in last Thursday.

I am a business major, and the universal truth you are always taught is the "customer" is the only reason you are able to own your own business.  I feel I have been more than patient (thinking you should looked to see if you are able to do the work before saying 1 to 2 weeks) given the fact that the torque plate had to be ordered.

My question is... wouldn't a good business man put this at the top of the list since it has taken an unexpectedly long time?  That's my thoughts.  My problem is, this is the only shop I could find in my area (40 30 minutes drive on I95) that had good reviews.  As I live in South Florida, 80% of the time they don't speak English (and just hang up) and 99% of the time when you google maps street view these places down here, they are in horrible neighborhoods and the signs are literally written on cardboard and taped to either the door or a cone in the parking area.  (Miami literally is 3rd world and is getting worse every day)

As I learned my lesson after getting royally screwed by Rick Toombs (to the tune of $600.00- A whole other story), I am a little jaded about trusting people with these parts, but on the other hand have no where else to go.  The next place I could find is 2 hours away North and it has no reviews and no website.  Yesterday after I wrote on this forum, he promised he would have it done next weekend (waiting on more heavy metal and a plum bob for NA?  Didn't understand the NA.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: MRadke on June 19, 2014, 09:39:08 AM
The problem is that hiring workers for skilled trades is not the same as hiring a new burger flipper for a McDonald's.  I've been in the repair business for 30 years and gave up on hired help 20 years ago.  I simply tired of apologizing for other peoples mistakes.  Running a one man shop, I can give accurate estimates as to cost, but not time.  Every phone call or walk in takes time away from the repair stand.  Yours is a unique engine, one time job,  that he may be fitting in along with other regular customers.

Good work is worth waiting for.  I waited two years for the contractor that replaced the windows in my house and I don't regret a day of the wait because ten years later, everything works flawlessly.

Again I don't know your situation or the shops rep.  With a 40 to 50 G engine, I would assume you want their best man on it, not an intern.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: BH107 on June 19, 2014, 12:08:26 PM
If he has no other work in the shop then it shouldn't take long. But most good engine builders have a huge backlog of builds. One very good local shop in my area is 6 months out on engine builds, and he gets top dollar. Even smaller shops are at least a month out.

Now given that he had to order the torque plate, as soon as it comes in you should be next in line.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 19, 2014, 02:58:35 PM
Listen, if this guy told me 1 - 2 months originally that would be fine.  I think what kills me is that he said 1 to 2 weeks... and then didn't have the right tools, so had to order them.... and while we were waiting, I asked if he could start balancing the crank so we could cut down on time.... he said I was next on the machine.  then almost 2 weeks later, nothing done to the crank and block not started, and he said another week.....

I guess I am just venting as I really have no choice. I will let you all know the outcome next Saturday.  Done or not, I am going up there and getting every Da*n part, bolt, gasket, etc.  I think I am going to have to add this guy to the "Rick Toombs" list!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on June 19, 2014, 05:09:17 PM
You guys must have been in the express lane. If you think that's bad, I had a verbal agreement of 3 months. It's been over 6 months and a week.....and counting. AND had to drive 2 hours to get there because if you mention Ford 427 to anybody in my area you just get a weird look like they think you're stupid for calling a Chevy engine a Ford.

The last guy I had do basic machine work for my engine took 2 months. And I thought that was bad ::)

Sideoilers and SOHCs especially are NOT an engine to trifle with. If the guy isn't familiar with them, or you feel like you're getting the run around, get your stuff and move on. The longer it sits there, the more likely that something will go wrong, or something will get stolen or come up missing....."it wasn't here".
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 23, 2014, 08:44:01 AM
OK, so I realized the car was not up high enough with the 6 ton jack stands, so I placed an order with Harbor Freight for 12 ton stands.  They arrived Saturday and holy Christ they are massive.  On their lowest setting, I was barely able to jack the car up high enough to get them under (using blocks of wood on the jack).  The car sits so high up now, I will easily be able to drop the transmission.  I ordered a 12mm impact socket with swivel head (specifically for removing the drive shaft bolts that mate up to the back of the existing tranny).  Drive shaft is now out of the way and placed aside in the "For Sale" area.  LOL 
Now I need to disconnect the battery so I can remove the started, and unbolt the transmission (hopefully I can get this done this evening after I get home from work), But I ran into a problem.

Earlier in the post, I mentioned that I need the Cammer engine to sit exactly in place of the Ford Modular engine.  I was going to do this by dripping a plum bob off of the flywheel and mark it out with tape on the floor.  This way When I slide in the cammer engine, I can just use the plum bob again to ensure its in the stock location.

Unfortunately, with the 12 ton jack stands, I will have to lower the car to get the modular motor out and that will throw off the plum bob marking.  Is there anyway to mark the location of the flywheel in the car itself? Any input would be greatly appreciated as I need to figure this out before I pull the stock engine out.

Thanks
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 23, 2014, 10:50:20 AM
Machine Shop Finally working on my Cranshaft!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 23, 2014, 11:00:29 AM
And my block!  Its my luck day!  He is working on both right now!  LOL  Giddy as a school girl   ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 24, 2014, 11:36:17 AM
In Other news!  I was under the car last night working on removing the starter (as it had to come off now that I am removing the Transmission.  While looking up in deep thought again, I realized that the 4.6 Modular has a rear sump oil pan due to the K member.  Although I Purchased an AJE tubular K member, I still do not believe that the Moroso 7qt oil pan I purchased (Back in July 2011 while hoarding parts) was going to fit given the steering rack and the space to the front of the radiator.....  Just out of curiosity, I called Jegs today and spoke with the returns department.  It seems I have 3 years to return and next month is the 3rd year!  Its in its original box and heading back.

I also took this time to pick up a Canton 8qt pan (Rear sump), its related rear sump oil pickup, as well as a windage tray...  Hoping that it wont interfere with the stroke....
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 25, 2014, 11:16:04 AM
Alright People!  Another update.  Machine shop just posted another picture of my block all honed up on the machine......  She is looking almost ready to be put together!!!!!!  Freaking exciting.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 28, 2014, 06:23:36 PM
Alright ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, children of all ages.......

I went to the machine shop this morning, to pick up the parts he has finished with.  He is just finishing up honing the mains on the block, and since the pond block is aluminum on top and steel (billet main caps) on bottom, he is having a better honing stone brought in to make sure he does it right.  Invited me into the back and all.  Super clean place.  My block was sitting in the machine and he explained everything.  I feel better.

On an even better note, everything else came home with me.  Crank is all balanced ( I am not totally sure how well its balanced as I have never read one of these), but alll looks good.  Fingers crossed, I will have the block in my garage next weekend doing the prep work to begin.  See below for the balance paperwork for the crank:
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 28, 2014, 06:24:20 PM
page 2
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cammerfe on June 29, 2014, 02:18:42 PM
I just went back and read your thread through from the beginning.

I didn't realize how blessed I am. It's almost the same distance from my place to Barry's shop as it is to Roush's digs. And only a little further to Chris Holbrook's shop. And another ten or fifteen minutes to Moldex or Livernois. I could go on for another couple of paragraphs...

KS
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: fe66comet on June 29, 2014, 03:16:18 PM
The new school Stang guys won't even know what to make of it LOL. That is why I am doing my Ranger with the FE. No 4.6 there ??????? What is it ????
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 01, 2014, 01:37:44 PM
OK all.....  Took a bit, but was finally able to get the stock transmission out!!!  Do you remember when you were a kid at the restaurant The Ground Round (For those of you from Long Island), and you used to take everyones straw and attach them together in order to drink soda off like up to 10 feet away?  Same thing! Who would have know at that age I was already practicing.  So in this lovely car, the top two bell housing bolts can't be seen or reached from under the hood.... and after days of trying extensions from the bottom side, that doesn't work either.  like 7 extensions and attacking it from on top (coming in from where the yoke is) finally worked....

Next step, pull engine (sell all these stock parts), bolt in new AJE K Member with FE motor mounts.... and rest the Cammer/T56 XL  in its new home!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 02, 2014, 12:32:17 PM
Finally!!!!!  I just got the call at work.  My block has been completed and I am picking it up tonight!  What a lovely way to spend the 4th of July long weekend!  I will have the block on the engine stand tonight and snap a few Pictures.  Of note, the machine shop said they only needed to hone out the bores like 0.010 to get them to 4.250.  I called them back to make sure (as I thought the Pond blocks came with a standard bore of 4.233) but he assured me that it only took 0.010 to get all the bored to 4.250......  Any input on this before I get it home?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on July 02, 2014, 12:57:58 PM
Check all you can, both visually and by asking, before taking it. Make notes b/4 you go too!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: lovehamr on July 02, 2014, 08:33:25 PM
I'd at least take a dial caliper with me.  ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 03, 2014, 08:48:54 AM
OK guys, I have the block home (think I even had the seatbelt on it on the way home).  First question to the FE committee.....  The picture below (not my actual block, but a picture I found online) has the 3 areas I believe need to be sealed off before bolting the block to the Engine Stand.  I have the freeze plug that seals off the back of the Cam tunnel, and I have a pipe plug for the small oil galley right below it, but I am unsure of what size pipe plug is needed for the larger oil galley to the bottom left.  It seems to be a deeper threaded hole before you get to the oil galley itself (I mean compared to the depth/threads on other oil galleys.

1st question:  What size pipe plug is needed for the bottom left oil galley?

2nd question: Am I missing any location on the back of the block (other than these 3) that need to be sealed off ?

Thanks everyone!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on July 03, 2014, 09:14:35 AM
You can disregard my PM, I just saw this picture.  For the SOHC Pond block I think those are the only three holes that need to be plugged.  The lower left hole takes a 3/8" pipe plug, if I recall correctly.  I'd get one of those and screw it in to try it.  Get an allen head plug so that the top of the plug stays more or less flush with the end of the block, otherwise you may end up cutting a hole in your block plate to accomodate the plug.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 03, 2014, 09:17:03 AM
Thanks Jay.  I will pick up one of those plugs.  Oddly enough I cannot find someone who sells a variety pack.  I got the pipe plug kit from Doug over at precisionoilpumps, but it doesn't have that particular plug in his kit.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 04, 2014, 07:10:42 PM
And now its going to get fun!!!!  Block is home.  Bolted it up to the engine stand.  Sprayed it down with brake cleaner and wiped it down with 100% cotton rag (No dust).  After this, I took a can of WD40 and sprayed down the whole block liberally.  Journals, Oil galleys, caps, etc.

Finallly, my plan of attack (using Jays 519" build as a guide, I started with the Cam plug for the #4 cam journal.  Using a seperate  100% cotton rag, I rubbed out the cam bearing.  I wanted to make sure there was no dirt, grease, "smutt", etc.  Anything that would get sucked up into the heads during the oil feed.  Once this was done (using nitrile gloves....  just feels like a super sterile environment where these would be needed), I unwrapped the cam plug Jay was awesome enough to machine for me.this is a 2 piece plug. One side of the blog is inserted from the back of the block, the other from the front.  When sandwiched together, there will be a thin passageway as the two halves do not touch.  This leaves a space for the oil (Side Oiler), to come up through the oil feed hole in the journal, pass through the oil hole in the bearing, fill up the space between the plug, and pass out the top oil feed hole in order to supply oil to the head.

Following Jays lead as best I could, I wiped down the plug with brake cleaner to remove any debris.  The 2 plug halves are held together by a small bolt and nyloc nut.  To ensure the oil does not seep out from around the plug, RTV sealant was applied in a very thin bead where the halves touch the block (Ensuring not to get any on the inside face.  RTV sealant was also applied to the bolt head as well as under the nyloc nut.  I wanted a tiny bit more security, so placed some extreme hold Loctite to the bolt threads as well.  Once I tightened it all down (I didnt want to strip the bolt\nut, so I tightened it until it was fairly hard to tighten any further and stopped (Thats why I felt goood about using locktite).

When all was done, I used my finger to smooth out the RTV that squished out (only a little) around each half as well as run my finger around the nut and the bolt head to ensure even coverage.  Step one complete!!!  Its finally happpening.  Now I want to let this dry before moving on.  I feel like with my inexperience, going slow will be my greatest ally.  Gives me time to post on here as well to get feed back.  I knew that I would not be able to reach the plug location once the Crankshaft was installed, so wanted to start here.  Tomorrow I may take down all of the measurements with the main bearings in place as well as measure the crank journal diameters....  I am hoping I do not need to buy extra sets of main bearings to make the proper clearances....  Finger crossed.  1 part that has me a bit nervous is the rear main seals with the 2 side seals.  Any feedback on making this a smooth and effective seal would be greatly appreciated.  See Below for pictures of the block and the cam journal plug in place.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 04, 2014, 07:11:35 PM
Cam plug:
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 05, 2014, 02:28:29 PM
OK Day 2... and if your reading Jay, I am going to need your help below.  After measuring each journal diameter on the crankshaft, and then taking a  reading from each main journal (with bearing installed), I got the following #'s:

Crank Journal OD:

#1 = 2.732
#2 = 2.732
#3 = 2.732
#4 = 2.732
#5 = 2.732

then, measuring the actual dial bore gauge I was using came up with 2.820 (I read that you change out the pins on the dial bore gauge to get fairly close to the diameter of the crank journal... but a little larger to be able to measure the clearances)

After putting each main bearing in its respective place, I proceeded to dial gauge each starting from #5.  On each one, the dial spun around 1 full time and then to between 12 and 16.....  I took this as .062 to 0.066 respectively (please anyone jump in here if I am reading the dial bore gauge wrong)

#5 (2.820 (dial bore gauge measurement) -  0.066 (Needle spun around 1 full time and then to the 16)= 2.754 (diameter of the mains with bearings installed.  Then subtract the outside diameter of the # 5 crank journal (2.732) to get the clearance of    0.022

Now I am supposed to be getting a clearance of between 0.002 to 0.003  so something does not look right.

Just to see, I layed on the crank, torqued all the mains with assembly lube and ARP torque lube, and the crank is firmly in place and is not moving.

2 HUGE QUESTIONS.......

Am I reading the dial bore wrong?

Am I running into the same issue where the oil slinger on the back of the crankshaft is bottoming out in the pond block?

Please help  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on July 05, 2014, 02:51:00 PM
For the bore gauge.
Set the micrometre at 2.732" and the set the bore gauge in the mic and zero the gauge.
Now use the bore gauge as a comparator. Showing you a difference between the pin and the bore.

As for the crank not spinning, Houston we have a problem.
When you have the crank in the block start with the centre cap and snug it up and work out towards the ends one cap at a time.
You will feel when in snugs up.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 05, 2014, 03:06:27 PM
Hey Howie,

Its a dial gauge, not a digital one. 

As for the crank, if I start torquing from the center and work my way out to each end..... do you think that will free up the crank?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on July 05, 2014, 03:25:30 PM
Digital or Dial it will still read the same.
It may not free up the crank, but it will tell you when it starts to get tight.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 05, 2014, 05:11:51 PM
Howie,
Have I told you how awesome you are lately?  A little depressed, I went back into the garage after a break.  I used ARP torque lube on the threads, under the washer, and between the washer and nut......  Torquing to 110 ftlbs (in 3 increments  70-90-110) starting from center and going in a clockwise pattern.....  Side bolts were torqued to 70 ftlbs (only 1 increment).....

I can turn the crank now with 1 finger!!!!!!!

As Awesome as this is, I need to reorder the rear main seals.  I sort of destroyed the 2 side seals as the ones I ordered did not come with "nails" to assist in pushing them down.  I am going to order them from jegs, and then I only have to losen the #5 cap , dab with TA 31 RTV, and work the side seals down.  Best Weekend Ever.  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on July 05, 2014, 05:51:19 PM
A small smear of RTV Ultra black on the side seals will give it a bit of lube to slide the seal
all the way down.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on July 05, 2014, 05:57:52 PM
I like the side seals that use nails. 

Easiest way I have found is to assemble without side seals.  Then gently shape each side seal on a sanding block so it will just barely slide in.  Lube it with your favorite RTV and slip it in all slathered up.

After its in, take the nails, but them on the crank side so they push outward and drive them in with a punch that will actually push the seals below the surface and "marshamallow" them out as you drive the nail in.

A another little dollop of RTV on top to get it to pan rail height and life is good
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 05, 2014, 07:25:25 PM
I just went down to the local auto parts store and ordered a new rear main seal set (will be in tomorrow afternoon).  I made sure that this set came with the side seals that come with the nails.  I am a little confused though, do the nails help you slide them down?  Are they left in the side seals?  Or are they just a tool that comes with the set?

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 05, 2014, 09:13:15 PM
OK Just finished reading some posts on this forum about the technique on installing the rear main seal.  It seems that there are a few tricks.

The seal needs to be installed clocked at about 2 and 8 (So the seams are not exactly where the block and cap meet)

A dab of sealant is placed on the end of each seal half (So they cure together)

Smearing of the sealant on the mating surface seems to be a given.

The side seals seem to have the most variety.  It seems like you always have to trim them a little thinner so they will slide into the grooves....  Also most people use the sealant as a lubricant.  Also looks like the nails are used to push the seals the rest of the way in (and the nails are left in after they are hammered down).  RTV is dabbed on the topsand then trimmed flat with a razor after it hardens.

Ill give it another go tomorrow night after I get the new set.

Also, do you have to whack the crank with a hammer to seat the Thrust bearings?  It seems the Thrust bearings are in the #3 journal, so how does that work???
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on July 05, 2014, 09:51:01 PM
Also, do you have to whack the crank with a hammer to seat the Thrust bearings?  It seems the Thrust bearings are in the #3 journal, so how does that work???

The centre main bearing is the thrust bearing. When you put it in it had a skirt or shoulder that wraps around the main cap and block.
It has two purposes.
1. It controls the forward and back motion of the crank when spinning.
2. It provides the load surface when you push the clutch pedal in.

Because the bearing is split the parting lines need to be set. I prefer to use a large screw driver (I have a really big one lol) and pull the crank back
using the crank flange  and push it forward using engine stand to push on. This will true up the two bearing halves and you can also check your crank
end play. Not a big fan of using a BFH to tune up the crank.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 05, 2014, 09:59:33 PM
Awesome!  Thanks.  I will do this all tomorrow and button up the crank for good!  It feel great to get the first step complete!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on July 05, 2014, 11:29:51 PM
OK Just finished reading some posts on this forum about the technique on installing the rear main seal.  It seems that there are a few tricks.

The seal needs to be installed clocked at about 2 and 8 (So the seams are not exactly where the block and cap meet)

A dab of sealant is placed on the end of each seal half (So they cure together)

Smearing of the sealant on the mating surface seems to be a given.

The side seals seem to have the most variety.  It seems like you always have to trim them a little thinner so they will slide into the grooves....  Also most people use the sealant as a lubricant.  Also looks like the nails are used to push the seals the rest of the way in (and the nails are left in after they are hammered down).  RTV is dabbed on the topsand then trimmed flat with a razor after it hardens.

Ill give it another go tomorrow night after I get the new set.

Also, do you have to whack the crank with a hammer to seat the Thrust bearings?  It seems the Thrust bearings are in the #3 journal, so how does that work???

I wouldn't clock the main seals as far as 2 and 8; you'll never get the rear main cap on without hurting the seal.  Offset them so that one side of the seal is sticking out of the block about 1/8"-1/4", and match the other one in the cap, and you can still get the cap installed without damaging the seal.

Also, I've never used silicone on the ends of the seals; I read somewhere once that that's a bad idea.  Not sure why, but FWIW I leave the ends of the seals dry.

You really don't need to seat the thrust bearing; after you have the crank in and the bolts torqued, you can pry against one of the counterweights, forward and backwards, to force the crank against both sides of the thrust bearing.  A lot of guys will measure end play in the crank that way.  I would NOT whack the crank with a hammer.

Howie's advice about measuring the bearing clearance is spot on, and I think Ross's idea for the side seals is a really good one.  I always struggle with those things myself; I think I'll try Ross's method next time...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on July 06, 2014, 09:44:55 AM
Same thoughts here

I don't clock a seal, too much chance to crush it and I dont add RTV.  The seal actually crushes a bit, so silicone won't do much even if you did use it, they are designed to crush together slightly.  I will oil the seal very lightly on the sealing lip though just before I drop the crank in.  Also, double check you are putting both halves in the correct direction, make that triple check!  Been a long time, but I have made that mistake....

Last thing I would do is smack a crank, although a forged unit should be fine, a habit like that could have you breaking cast cranks.  Not to mention you cannot control or measure it. 

Better method is to set up your dial indicator without the thrust cap on, check it with the bottom only, if its good or more than required, put the cap on loose, pry the crank forward, torque it and check the thrust clearance. Prying will move it as much as a hammer will and you can watch the clearance on the dial indicator as you go full forward and full back.

One think to look at though, look at the main cap and see how it dumps oil. See the "mouth" or grooved slot on the main cap below?

(http://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/tmp/711/71125.520.390)

That slot dumps the oil pressure, the seal only seals against what splashes there not oil pressure.  In only a few cases over the years I have seen windage trays, oil pans, or even just excited RTV application block that slot. Check yours during assembly.  Otherwise, you bolt the pan on and pressurize the seal and it will never hold 50+ psi.  it doesn't happen a lot, but it can happen
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 07, 2014, 07:01:25 AM
Also, yet another question.......

I plan on taking it apart (just to be sure) and measuring the bearing oil clearance again on the mains.  I figure I have time (In no rush and want to make 100% sure its done to spec).  The interesting thing is, if I try to turn the crank by one of the counter weights, its very difficult to turn, however, if I turn it by the crank snout with the ratchet, I am able to spin the crank over with 1 finger and barely any pressure.....

Is this normal?

Like I said, I am going to pull it out and measure the clearances all again for piece of mind.

Thanks
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on July 07, 2014, 07:46:02 AM
How easily the crank spins over will depend on the assembly lube you are using and the bearing clearances.  What I look for mostly is that it turns over smoothly through 360 degrees, with no rough or sticking spots.  You should be able to move the crank pretty easily by pushing on one of the counterweights; if you can't, there may be a problem.  Look for a shiny area on the oil slinger to check for interference with the block at that point. 

One thing you might try is spinning the crank with no caps installed, then install #1 cap and feel how that affects the force required to spin the crank, then remove #1 and install #5 with no seals, and see if it feels the same as when #1 was installed.  If it feels the same, then you probably don't have interference between the oil slinger and the block.  If it is a lot stiffer though, you have a problem there.  When I had that issue it would lock the crank up pretty tight, but maybe they don't all do that...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 07, 2014, 08:56:11 AM
I was noticed something.  When I ordered Main bearings from Summit racing, I ordered a standard set.  When I was installing them, I found it odd that the top shell had a groove for the oil, but the bottom shell (that goes in the cap) was smooth with no channel for the oil.

I went to Jegs website, and it seems like they are supposed to have a channel on both halves of the shell.  Its possible that they sent me the wrong ones.  As I ordered standard, I didn't even check to make sure.  When I get home, I will double check.  This is why I no longer use Summit racing and have since switched to jegs.   Worse comes to worse and they are the incorrect ones, I then need to reorder the standard size again from Jegs.

This would definitely explain why I was getting odd numbers on the clearances as well as the difficulty to spin by hang.  The assembly lube I am using is very viscos.  Its a lube by "red line".

I am going to check the bearings when I get home, but am I correct in thinking they are supposed to be grooved on both halves of the shell?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on July 07, 2014, 09:12:35 AM
no the lower Shell is not groved. To give bigger
bearing Surface on the preasure side
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 07, 2014, 09:15:21 AM
I see.  I just went back through my orders and see that I got these:

Speed Pro:  Main Bearings, Competition, Standard Size, Super Duty Alloy, 3/4 Groove, Ford, Big Block FE, Set of 5

They are standard size, but 3/4 groove.  I think I went with them because they were "Super Duty".  I feel a little bit better.  I saw that the sealed power standard bearings come "Full groove" so it got me thinking (Dangerous)

 ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on July 07, 2014, 09:19:25 AM
 Yes wery dangerous ;D More people have ended up on the funnyfarm by thinking
than by any other reason ;D ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 07, 2014, 10:05:31 AM
Well, Just to be safe, I went ahead and ordered another set of bearings (Undersized) so I have them on hand when I re-measure.  They are 0.010 undersized.

I also picked up an oil slinger for the Crankshaft nose.  I actually asked Keith Craft about this while I was in my hoarding parts phase, and he said I don't need it.  I figure (even though I will have squirters like Jay's design, it cant hurt to have more oil being flung up onto those chains and gears at speed.

Another item Keith Craft said I didn't need was a windage tray.  I felt like it cant hurt to have one, so for an extra $60.00, I got the one that works with my rear sump Canton Pan and pick up.  My only concern is that this is a stroker motor and at 4.250 stroke, the windage tray may cause interference???  Either way I have it on hand  :0)

I have to say that I love this stuff. Can't wait to get home and get back into the garage!  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Lenz on July 07, 2014, 11:14:44 AM
You are right about possible interference, you do need to check.  It seems almost the norm with trays based upon what I've read and my own experience (had to trim mine for the dipstick).  Once the bottom end is assembled fit a gasket, the tray and enough nuts to hold the tray in place.  Roll the crank over and check for clearance issues, remove the tray, grind, cut or trim as needed. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 07, 2014, 11:39:40 AM
That's exactly what I think I will do.  Thanks  ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on July 07, 2014, 05:44:44 PM
You really really REALLY need to confirm your bearing and thrust clearances here. The fact that the crank seized up the first time says that something wasn't right. Maybe your thrust is awful tight and needed set (which still indicates that it is too tight to survive), maybe a cap was off skew somehow (not sure how), maybe it was the slinger.....but it had to be something. An installed crank without rods and pistons should never be so tight that it can't be turned by hand, even with tight clearances and assembly lube.

I also didn't see you mention anywhere that you scrubbed/flushed ALL the passages out in the block and crank. You can't guess or assume that something is ok. It only takes a VERY small piece of crud or machining debris to seize up a crank when it's installed. No matter if the machine shop said it was ready to install, they are ran by humans, and humans make mistakes and miss things.

Verify all your clearances before installing anything. If something doesn't add up....stop!! If something is not to spec and it gets torqued down, serious damage can be done without you even realizing it. It's always best done with calipers, dial indicators and bore gauges, but even Plasti-gauge works for a cheap but effective double or triple check on bearings. Since you are having a little difficulty with the gauges being your first time, I would recommend using it just for piece of mind.

But most of all......go slow. Do one thing, then double check it. Then triple check it. It's easy to get excited and rush ahead. That's when mistakes are made and things are missed. I really want to see this engine turn out good for you!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 08, 2014, 07:30:22 AM
Hey Doug.  Thank you.  Yes, this is exactly what I am doing.  I have not touched it since this weekend.  I am getting a better micrometer, I ordered some undersized bearings, and some other items.  I am going to take the crank back out before anything and run the measurements again.  I will take 3 measurements on each just to be sure.  What is really puzzling is that its a little difficult to turn if you push on a counterweight, but when I turn it over using the crank tool, it takes barely any pressure at all.

Either way, I know something is off and I am going to measure all over again.  I am shooting for between 0.002 and 0.003 bearing clearance.  While I have the crank out, (and before I measure), I am going to scrub the block's oil galleys out again .  I have brake cleaner, compressed air, and a pipe brush set.  Again, just to be double safe.  II also have the block wrapped in an engine bag to avoid dust or particulate from getting in there while I am not working on it.  If you look a few posts back, I got a measurement of 2.732 on the crank journals.  This is why I am getting a new micrometer.  I Did a bit of investigation, and I believe stock ford FE cranks have a journal diameter somewhere between 2.748 -  2.749.  LOL.

Everything arrived on Thursday from Jegs, and I do not think I will even wait for the weekend.  I will go back in on Thursday night and get to re-cleaning and measuring.

On a side note, I took a look at the rear oil slinger on the crank, and it does not appear to be rubbing.  I know Jay said he gets interference when using a scat crank (If I am not mistaken).  Mine is an RPM Enterprises Forged piece so maybe the oil slinger is slightly smaller in diameter. Fingers crossed.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 08, 2014, 09:58:48 AM
Some other interesting possible factoids I came across while doing some light reading on the internet... 

1. Since I am using an aftermarket Oil pan (Canton rear sump), the stock oil dipstick hole on the Pond block needs to be tapped and plugged.

2. It was kind of a general statement on the "Modified Mustangs and Fords" website (which I am weary of), but 0.010 undersized bearings for the crank as well as the rods are the norm for a Pond block built as a stroker.

Here is the link to the article:
http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/engine/1404-how-to-build-an-fe-big-block-engine-replica-power/

What I also picked up on is if you look at the #5 picture in the article, you will notice no Thrust Bearing?  Is that normal?  If nothing else, its good to read on other similar builds as I go   :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on July 08, 2014, 10:27:16 AM
I guess I would take issue with both of those statements.  Unless the crank is ground undersize, you don't need undersize bearings.  And you do need a thrust bearing; it is part of every main bearing set.  It looks to me like the thrust bearing is there in the picture.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 08, 2014, 10:47:41 AM
Ahh  I see it now.  Mine is much more obvious (and copper colored). 

When I was reading the article, I almost took it that they were using 0.010 undersized bearings on both the crank and rods because it was a stroker in a pond block.  I guess its just written poorly.  I have a set of undersized mains on the way just incase I need to swap a shell or 2 after measuring.  I will worry about the rod bearings when I make it that far  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on July 08, 2014, 11:37:14 AM
I hope you mean .001 undersize mains, not .010 undersize.  You don't want to match a standard main and a .010 undersize main on the same journal; you'd get a huge increase in clearance.  Your crank is ground standard size, right?  The standard bearings should work...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 08, 2014, 12:51:04 PM
Hey Jay.  I got the Crank from Keith Craft.  Its a brand new RPM international, so I don't believe it was ground down (Should be standard).  When I left the machine shop, they guy suggested I get some undersized bearings just incase the clearances were off.  I went back onto Jegs, and the only other size other than standard in "speed Pro" was 0.010 undersized.  I will return then after I measure again, I just wanted to purchase incase I did need them I didn't want to wait another week.  I have the standard bearings in now and that is what I will be measuring Thursday night.  LOL 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on July 08, 2014, 01:01:06 PM
OK, here's a little more information for you.  RPM cranks are notorious for not being "right" out of the box.  Every one that I've had has needed some touch-up grinding so that they were straight and would give the correct clearances.  Barry at Survival takes every one and grinds it .010/.010 to straighten them out and address any issues.  I hate to say it, but you really ought to have that crank checked at the machine shop or a crank grinding outfit.  I got one RPM crank that was cracked right from the manufacturer, so have it checked for cracks too.  And you should probably hang onto those .010 under bearings because you are likely to need them with that crankshaft...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 08, 2014, 02:29:04 PM
OK Will do.  I believe the journals should read 2.7484-2.7488?  Is that the standard FE journal size on a crank?

I am guessing I can test each journal by using a Micrometer (the new one should be arriving Thursday), lock the measurement and then take a slide digital caliper to double check the measure? "Measure twice, cut once"  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on July 08, 2014, 02:35:34 PM
I've usually seen the standard listed as 2.749, but your numbers are very close to that.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 08, 2014, 02:38:07 PM
OK thanks you :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: HolmanMoodyStroppeVet on July 10, 2014, 12:56:16 AM
Hi Pal

I tried to read a lot of these posts and it has been kind of fun. I am happy for you, and want this engine to be awesome.

Now, I could say general things, or specific things, we raced these guys and won a lot with Ford, and later. Many guys who read this stuff did too, and I see that they are trying to lend a hand. That just makes me smile.

 I hope that a lot of guys give you input, and it always makes me smile even more, when a new SOHC comes back 'on line',,,to put the hurt on those 'other' guys..


I have some questions, and I will try to get back as well, and email me if you like, but it takes some time for me to get back when busy.

OK, how many engines have you built before ?  What kind, for what style use.?  I ask, because you list tools that you needed, so maybe this is a first engine? 

I applaud you,,,because many guys had to build and build, to graduate up, to this level of race engine.  But you be patient, you can do a good job.  Take your time please.

And do you have access to a machine shop? Do you know how to turn and mill for example?  Have a pal close by to help there?  This can be a big help.  Many guys here know how a true,,,machine shop engine, often has an edge. 

We pre assembled many things, in a big mahine shop, to modify or confirm dimensions, then, it got re cleaned, and went back, to the clean engine rooms.  So take the time,,,,turn that bushing, surface grind this or that, fit it as well as you can. 

Now I had other questions, so I kind of roughed out an essay.  I want to encourage you. So all I write, is positive, and constructive, to stimulate your thinking, and maybe suggest how it is done in a professional race engine shop, or, in a basic at home build too.

Many race winning, and even record setting Hot Rods, used to come from a nice, well tolled garage made into a shop of sorts.  Who helps you, and who your vendors and resources are can be key..

Also,,to give you a time and skil estimate

I'd say, out West, to get a cammer built, by a race engine shop, and few are real real hip on a SOHC,,,the going fee begines at 5,000...and goes up to over 10,000, all day

I can send a 390 to get overhauled,,,,the assembly labor may be 500....get it?

The reason is, in part, to do it 'nice', you may mock the engine up a few times, to finesse many dimensions, and also to select fit (often swap them from place to place for the best over all fit)..on the pistons, bearings and so on. 

In your case, you may be sending the parts out, for further machining,,,you know once you check it all. 

Used parts can help,, for example, mock up main or rod bearings, so you save the brand new parts, for the final assembly...used head gaskets can be handy for example, when the heads go on and off to do the steps. Use the new ones, last.

So, I'd think about that big fee, to get it pro built,,,because to me, it says, a lot of time, and patience, and details, adds up. And the level of skill, time, and tools required,,,justifies that fee.  For you, a lot of time, and trial, will be the work by which you save this fee.  And you can say you did it,,,with pals helping,,,sounds fun..

So be slow, check and double check. Acquire and borrow more tools...you can do it !

Don't get scared,,but it is true....some pass on a SOHC,,,for a first time build, because they race or do a lot of Chevies, or Dodges, and know there are a lot of little tricks to a SOHC, that may 'bite' a guy who is used to fast and dirty small block Chevy assembly

You will do fine, be patient.

And on the other end,,,some builders let you build it, hurt it, then come back to them, to pay up, and not question them.   I have seen this a few times too. They get silent, let a guy do it wrong. You are very lucky,  to have the web and a lot of good guys to ask stuff of....like a car club,,,how neat.

Ok, just a general impression...for reference maybe,,to ponder...

I guess I'd next say...are you going to built it,,,in one of 3 ways. Maybe set a goal.


 On a street car, cleanliness, and precision can yield durabilty.  The pay off can be,,,a thrown together FE,,,can suffer low oil pressure some times,,,,a precise one, will have solid, good oil pressure,,,,for example.  Both will run, one will live better and be harder to hurt. The other, may die too soon. BUT,,,if you just cruise a bit,,,and dont race,,,you can get away with a lot of things,,too,,,so that is nice.


When we raced these for FORD,,,the discipline was an ever increasing level of tricks, to finely coax out every possible ponie, and to do very exacting, precise work....so to win, and live,,,that discipline, given an unlimited budget,,,is beyond what you need maybe.

You are fortunate,,,we had to make a lot of what you can now buy,,,so cool...

  Shucks, I would measure 5,6,7 sets of rod bearings, mark them all, then swap in and out the best set, to get every rod clearance, perfectly the same....to the tenth,,,0001....on the thoery, the oil bleed rate would be more uniform,,,I could go on and on about building it, super fussy. 

You may want to go to this level, to know more about that fine of a build,,,to acquire a discipline,,,but,  you do not have to at all,,,,on a pump gas FE,,,for fun..

If you see a future, in assembling race engines,,,and want it to maybe become a career, then you do that,,,you try to do top shelf, exacting, wanna be perfect work.  For this goal, to cruise, it is your call.

If you want to try to go 60s-70s Drag Style,,,I'd say...

On all of the blown SOHCs we did, or raced on Nitro,,,,once the short block is blueprinted,,,you know, valve to piston, cam timing, clearances, and so on, the block is known to be sqaure,,,crank is tru, indexed, etc.....you can just feed it bearings, pistons and rings, and more, gaskets, whatever,,,,and the tight, ultra precise clearances, can be less vital, since you run 60 or 70 straight weight oil, barely warm the thing, then nail it for 8,7,6 seconds,,,,as built then.  This style of maintenance, falls back a lot, on the precise, original work in many ways.

The 60-70s Pro Stock SOHC's,,,the fast ones, that I was around, helped, worked on,,,,,they were generally, very precisely built, and very refined, and very dialed in, and very well tuned, round by round.  You even adjusted the cam tension between rounds some time,,to move the cams...for a tiny edge, if the track and weather was there,,,and if you needed it...to pick up a tick.  Dyno Don, and Dan Nowak, were really good at these tricks, both were close pals...who I worked with.  Such guys had so many passes with these cars, as did master like Earl Wade,,,they learned a lot, and knew a whole lot.  Earl, was the man boy,,he was a Cammer genius,,,and he sure should have done a book.   His SOHC,,,'special tools' alone, might fill a book...just to build and service these mills. Very precisely.

So maybe precise, and clean, and well checked, is fine.  You say your goal is to cruise..OK. That makes me happy,,,you have a big safety margin.

To just cruise?  Shucks...you will be baby-ing it maybe,,,so,,,some of the hair splitting may never amount to a bunch for ya....you are not trying to win a race, championship, set a record,,,so,,that is nice kind of...you may stress less...and have more  fun.

Now for an essay from a lunch break,,,for fun.   You have 100 good engine men here to help, the typing is the drag,,,,haha. I hope they share a bunch too.....I think you will do well.

########    OK, this is a draft bud,,,,spit out some topics,,,quickly, just for fun...

Hello....

I believe we met on the other Forum, concerning a timing chain issue?

In any event....

Welcome to the Cammer club,,,we raced these engines for a long time and honed on them a lot to try to win for Ford,,,little step by step, tricks that helped, tricks that were no help,,,,but for a fun engine,,, you are going to have fun.

This engine was the class of the field,,,,and is still a great way to make power...

They can still push a heavy car into the 8s.....set up to scream....

Nice job collecting it all too.

I read a lot of your thread, so, here are some ideas,

I may have missed your replies in a few places,,,from memory...

Be patient, and test fit and mock it up a little.  Don't rush. If she needs to get pre test assembled a few times, that is fun,,,and can help yield a better result,

Now for a reply to many question you pose....

And most kindly, I would suggest,,,,don't go to the web to determine the deck height,,,measure it,   Don't let the net confuse you at all...you...confirm every dimension, and spec, so that you, personally, own it. And know it, cold hard fact wise.

You do this, in case an irregularity came through on this, specific, part.  The only way you really know a dimension, is to personally see it.

Parts do vary, because they are machined to 'tolerances'. Tolerances...vary. And slight imperfections do happen....so,,,,check it all. All that it takes, is a few chips, under a part, in a fixture, to throw a dimension off.    All it takes, is a assembly machinist, to forget to bottom tap every hole, maybe he goes on break,,,gets a call,,,,so you check it, and sometimes find a woop see daisy....

A good engine man just eyes and stares at every little detail on every part,,,combing for errors, and flaws.  If you are new,,,and not trained to look at this or that,,,look closer, and more patiently, and ask.

Controlling that variation,,,is an art kind of...so here are some ideas

Just general things,,,we did for the factory backed racers, and since.

You should thoroughly clean the block, after you patiently de burr it.  We, check every thread with a tap, tapered then bottoming, you want to confirm, that you staked the sleeves too.

Who staked the sleeves? I just wondered, you didn't say anything

So i read, you got the block from the machinist, mounted it, then added plugs. None of use begin to assemble anything from a machine shop, unless they finish cleaned it perfect. Even then, I'd re clean it, especially, since you have stuff to mess with for a while.

To be clear, did you brush all of it, de burr it,,,and chase all the threads?  I just did one, those 3 operations took about 4 hours.


I am not clear,,,so I had to ask.   

Also....

Did you stake the sleeves?  It is wise, to 'set' the sleeves on a new block, rather than over tax the head gaskets,,,to try to set them.  Look into that. I use a special driver, and have a press fixture.

A sleeve recedes down,,,,,into a brand new aluminum block.  Then, they settle and move less. A new block has to stabilze, in some respects.

That bottom sealing ring, does more work then some imagine.

On the deburr part, this is really a trained machinist skill, so that would take an essay alone.  I use about 20 tools, to do that maybe....chamfering bits, inside a bare drill chuck, a burr knife, a rout a burr,,,jewelers files, I re tap every thread,,,tapered tap first, bottoming tap next (You can catch errors there,,,that can break a casting sometimes) , I use a trigle mill file, a mill bastard, an air grinder and rotary carbide cutters, also abrasive cartridge rolls, sometimes a flap wheel, a mini sander, a small diameter right angle air grinder, and more.   Every shar edge can help a stress riser form, or cut a gasket, or cut you, or break off, and make chips.   So, doing this prep work,yields professional looking results.

Then,,,,before you add any plugs,,,,pressure wash that block, then run oil galley brushes, I have hard plastic brushes,,,on long metal stems, that are twisted for rigidity,,,,,to brush away, any cutting oil, chips, or grit,,,,,from the oil sytem,,,all of it..  You can get, purpose built engine cleaning kits, mine had about 50 brushes.

Then I have a solvent spray gun.   You set a siphon tube in your solvent,,,,or cleaning fluid,,,,re blast it all,,,with around a 100 psi,,,,to clean the entire block,,,,,more.

Then, hot, soapy water,,,and I have a big, cylinder bore brush,,,5 inches, by around 6 inches deep,,,,on a long metal handle,,you are wise to thoroughly, remove all of the honing grit, inside the cross hatches of the bore, or, that grit, can skuff your pistons,

I never really likes using a rifle, metal bristle kit, because those fine metal brushes can fall out. If unluck, it ends up in an oil annulus, around a cam bearing, or in a hidden nook. We always used plastic.  Get the correct size for the crank oil holes too. 

Back to the block

Then, use a light oil, and clean, lint free rags, and scrub the bores, along the lines of the honing,,,at both angles, until all of the dark color is gone,,,,then I re blast

Then light oil.  A wipe, with a white, rag, should show no coler if the bores are clean. Some hones, get old, and recede faster, due to wear.  They can leave a gunk in the cross hatch, that may take 10 cleanings, to remove,  just take your time, and rub hard, into the lines, I use lint free rags,,

Mist her with WD 40, or similar.  You can use lacquer thinner later, to clean any oiled surface for a gasket if concerned.

Be careful with brake clean,,,,it can be corrosive in some settings, like if stored.

Then,,slide her  into a very clean engine room area,,,,keep the doors get closed,,,,no air born dust is invited into this area, and slide clean trash bags over it when not working on her..... Get the extra big ones.

At Ford Racing,,,they were so very very high end,,,,a talented engine man,,,got fired,,,for leaving the door to the engine room,,,open a little too long,,,,on a windy day where dust was 'up' just a bit....now that is hard core,,,huh?

For a giggle,,,,in the old days,,,,when you built a Top Fuel hemi,,,you would pick the laundry soap to clean the block, like Lemon scented whatever....and you know what?

The first time you fired it up on fuel, blown, for just a few seconds, you'd smell that lemon smell,,,,how fun,,,huh....thats an old school trick,,,,Fuel Altered style

On the super sano engine rooms,,guys let go for a dust issue,,,LOL

This is how hard and fussy the top teams got,,,,trying very very hard to win,,,,

Engine rooms,,,were kind of scientific clean rooms in several shops out here,,,,because they reflected FORD, or the team,,,,so it was a good setting to learn stuff...

Now, I also, do the ring file fitting, BEFORE,,,the final cleaning, and after the last trial assembly of the entire bottom end.   If you file fit, then final clean,,,,the grit, from slowly test fitting the rings, ends up in the bore,,,,so it will also be cleaned away.

IF you clean then file,,,you will likely lose filing in the once clean block....you don't need any debris finding the soft over plate of your bearings.

So when you said, mounted the block,,,ready to go, I wanted to suggest some sequence things.

Without getting very very detailed, let me suggest a few more methods we used at Ford Racing, at HMS.  And that many do, since, for fun....not lecturing one little bit,,,you all do whatever is fun.

Before continuing,,,maybe

  Assemble the bearings, numbered,clean and torqued,,,,and the rods,,,using a rod vise,,,,,did you get one?  Use the blot stretch gage,,number that all,   then,,,measure the inside of each bearing bore, and be careful, the inexpensive dial bore gages,,,can cut into the bearing

The good, high end bore gages, have a wide tip, and a big radius...they dig into the bearing less,  the cheap ones,,,well ....just go slow. Look for gouging, use magnification,,well we do,,,especially me, I am super fussy on such things

Set it to not, turn a full rev to read too,,,that is just adding tension we don't need,,,adjust the shims,,....If you fuss and adjust it to just open, they can exert less force and yiled better readings.

Then mic it...write it all down

Mic every position onthe crank,,,check for variation,,,and taper,  take your time

Make notes.    If close,,,and with a subtle,,,light, or moderate drag,,,mic it,,,,then set the bore gage, then see what you have,,,,in every position,,,one by one.

What I prefer,,,,is,,,finish the block and rods,,,,install the shells,,,,measure them,,,compare them,,,,then,,,,tell the crank grinder,,,what sizes you need

That leaves no guess work. You set the specs, not fate.

Also,,,we, many of us,actually measure the pistons,,,then, finish hone the block. This way,,,you can control all of your clearance,,,to the 0001 ,,,or,,,to the tenth.

 
Maybe just think on it for next time, for now, let's see where you are at.  We all, have re line honed to move main clearances maybe, or changed the rod boig end size, to change a clearance.

Depends on how close you like it.

Also,,,,it takes a lot of practice,,,and experience,,,,and time,,,for many many guys, to do repeatable mic work.  3 guys  can hand you 3 sizes,,,ha ha.  No joke.

And old test, for who got hired in a top machine shop, was to have the applicants, mic a few things.  And the Foreman, mine had this huge resume, and rep, taught us this. I saw it elsewhere too.  The applicants, would get hired, and get a try out, only, if they knew how to mic a part, with that correct 'feel'...that yileds repeatable dimensions, and specs.

So patiently learn that feel,,,,and have a pro, double check your measurements maybe.


Sadly, some guys, just do not have the finesse to gently, and carefully, provide you a consistent set of measurements.  We sent them to welding and fabrication,,   ha ha

To learn, you often, do an apprenticeship, under a Master Machinist,,,who checks you out in many ways,,,to see if you have that touch,

Top engine shops, use 2 and 3 axis, digital measuring centers, set on a granite surface plate...to maintain tenth tolerances.   Ed Pink, has 2 rooms, just for this task..and they do a computer print out too.  You will be fine, with less precision.

Many will be fine with mics..,,,,but as a first timer,,,,maybe double check..to learn

ALso,,,pick a constant temperature time maybe....if you set your clearances, on a very very hot day, in a hot shop,,,,and re check the following Winter,,,the can surprise you !

Some guys mic,,,very very light,,,others, just drag that anvil, thimble and so on,,,and are too heavy handed, you end up with dimensions all over the place in both cases

If the goal,,,is a tenth tolerance race engine,,,,the error or lack of it,,,is key.  We all had to maintain this discipline,  and this justifies the cost, to have an engine professionally built,

Next tip.  You give us crank dimensions,,,,,in one essay,,,,but they are only in thousandths...dot  1,2,3

I worried,,,you want to explain,,,,like,,,,I measured...rod throws at,,1.999

Please go farther....1.999.......with a 1? 2?  3?  See?  That ten thousandth,,,,all 10   tenths,,,is where the actual clearance game lives,,,,see ?  To check the tenths, maybe get a friction thimble mic,,,and re check, on your standards.

Trying to help pal    not an ounce of criticism here,,,

You want to tell us,,,,in tenths,   so let us know,,,the size,,,,with 4 significant figures

Then, we can shoot for the clearances, to the tenth,,,,like,,,,we had 0028 on the mains, and 0025 on the rods

usually  we make them,,all just about exactly the same,,

What we would do,,,,is actually ball mic the rod and main bearing shells too.....because sometimes, you can make the similarity, or each clearance, closer, by swapping the bearing shells from location, to location,

Often, we mix and match,,,2,3,4 sets of bearings that way,,,,and pick the best fitting ones,,,sometimes,,,,

This is a well known race engine practice, called,,,,select fitting,,,your bearings

It helps on an endurance engine, or a very precise engine,,,,,and on a drag engine, it is less worrisome,,,,,on a blown fueler, a bit less worrisome,,,,because we change the bearings a lot, and run very thick oil

On the main bores,,,,they do not come finished  on a Pond or Shelby unless you specify and pay for the finals hone,  I think your machinist did that,,,so good. 

For me, and our guys, and some pals these days....we run the main bore size, BELOW,,,the low limit, depending on the engine design, and task.

Say at 1000 HP...you might, if spinning it hard...003-0004 under the low limit.

In that way, as the engine runs, races, breaks in, and moves, that dimension, can grow bigger, yet maintain good crush, over a season or whatever. TO race. 

You sould like you are going pump gas, for a fun car, so, your size there,,,around the low limit, is OK,,,,but to make big power, next time it you bump up the compression,,,I'd look into putting more crush on the mains

On the OEM cams,,,,we are all different,,,,,,but I'd say.....I would be careful,,,using a race cam, and over 2 full points less compression,

A key trick back when, and since, big time, is adding, not subtracting compression to a cammer.

It didnt take a year, for the A/FX teams, and the subequent Pro Stock SOHC teams, to try this and win.

My pal, Dyno Don pushed that envelope,,,as hard as the gas, and ignition, from this era, would allow, and, you were, well, rewarded,,,,for figuring how and when to bleed off cylinder pressure with better, race purposed cams,

Knowing how to mix gas, was a trick too. Stroppe made special gas called,,,Fast Gas. He had the patent.

Crane Crower, Isky Engle, Holman Mooody, Stroppe, Howard and eventually, General Kinetics, and others,,,Ford,,,,tried hundreds of cam combos, I have talked about how we mixed and matched some

I read you say, you cams, are NOS lift,,,,with shorter ramps, and shorter advertised duration, and less duration at 050.  I am glad, if you are modernizing these, to help restore some pop, since you reduced the squeaze

Personally,,,and a lot of us kind of think this,,,,,and please please dont get offended,,,

A SOHC,,,,just sounds like a SOHC,,,,,when you run it, hammer it, and rev it,,,with the race gas compression, that Ford gave us these engines with, and they sound even more angry, and like they raced at Drag strips all over the nation,,,with at least 12.5 to 1,,,,,then more,,,,but you need open headers and a lot of ignition advance, to get that old school, big power sound.

On pump gas,,,,well,,,that is fine,,,,,but the exhaust note,,,and power,,,,and how it feels when you goose it,,,,well,,,just know,,,and tell your guests, etc,,,,,that this is a race engine,,,,,and a purpose buiult race engine,,,,,that was redesigned, and de tuned,,,to run ordinary, pump gas

A stock SOHC,,,with the pistons slab milled, to gibe you 10-1...it just, to me,,sounds wrong.   It sounds,,,dull, and constrained, and tamed, but guys do it, thats fine. They rev slower, accelerate slower, and sound pretty tame out the tail pipe. To a racer maybe, to me,for sure, and to all my amigos.

Out West,,,,guys have kind of got hip to this,,,because a single 4, 10 to 1 SOHC,,,,is not going to smoke the tires through 3rd gear in a COBRA,,,,or blow the doors of some of the cars your buddies may challenge you with

Stock, they pulled 600 HP easy....with all that cylinder pressure removed, you may be at 450 to 500....so,,these engine are heavier than some too, so I'd like to add above the 600 HP,,,thats all we every want, is more more.

So, we have, and you see, a lot of SOHC guys just mixing race gas, or running race gas,,,to keep Mr SOHC popping,,,,at at least 13 to 1. 

If not, the modern street cams are a big help. Save the race cams, for a race engine.

OK, I gotta go,,,,i will check later,,,,you are doing well,,,be patient...have fun...and smoke them hard for Henry

Just like Jay !!

Nice build,,,sounds fun

Now the other engine mmen here can add or help next,,,,a lot of good engine guys are here,,,so they can be a huge help

LEts end,,,fast...

To cruise,,,I think the modern cams, and you should move them several times in the car, under timed trials, or , do some dyno dialing in.....or, just have fun

I am totally happy for you young man,,,,kudos for achieving a dream, and for all the hard work

So,,,,clean the block like a pro  maybe

test assemble it

Select fit the rods and mains, or let us know where you are

File fit, de burr, tap, chase every thread,,,,

Brush the oil galleries

Consider some compression

OH,,,,,and we mock an FE up first,,,then order the pistons,,,,that way,,,to can call out, or specify the compression height,,,,,no guessing needed

A good machine shop can mic that,,,and tell you.  We have the test stuff,,,9-10  and 10-11 inch micrometers,,,depth gages, etc

To also bootstrap,,,,,when you test assemble the bottom end,,,,before you pull it apart to adjust, re clean, etc,,,oil,,,,,you can,,,,,just take rod and piston 1,,,,,,and then install it,,,,after measuring the down,,,or deck height,,,,say   down, or minus 005 , for example,,,,,then,,never hurts,,,to install that rod, that bearing, that piston,,,no rings,,,,,torque her up in hole 4, then 5, then 8.  Then you know for sure,,,how square the block came out,,,,and how even your piston down will end up


I hope this helps,  it sounds real fun.  And the under hood appeal, when done, is second to none

The above is to stimulate your thinking on this build, and hopefully help you have a very sound build.  And be patient,,,another suggestion, we would mock up and test assemble a race FE,,,2,3,4 times if need be, for that edge you may need, to win

We grew up surrounded by blown nitro SOHCs at the Drags,,,,that was a golden era

Your engine just stunned a lot of guys who would see how fast and well they competed.  SO welcome to that club

And as for FORD tough,,,,,my old friend,,,won so many nitro races with a CAMMER,,,,that these engine ,,,well,,,if you knew what you were doing,,,,you could race a blown cammer,,,on Nitro,,,,and race 2 or 3 match races a week,,,,at over 200 MPH,,,,,and after the run,,,,you drained the water,,,,let it cool down,,,,then you did a leak down test,,,,,,drained the oil,,,,checked or changed the plugs,,,new oil, new water,,,,and send it right back to the line.  Ya,,,,you often even have to pull the valve covers,,,,,

Tommy Grove,,,,who won 85 consecutive rounds with a Nitro SOHC,,,,,and he is legend,,,,a true SOHC Champion,,,,he had one SOHC,,,,live,,,,heads never came off,,,,for 6 full months of racing,,,,,6 months,,,,,with a FORD iron block,,,,and FORD Iron, then aluminum heads,,,

I'd say,,,,the FOrd Drag Team, the Drag Council, and the AFX Dragster,and Funny Car guys from then,,well,,were on to a good thing,,,,,

Non adjustable rockers too,,,,,,the lash caps rev, and live sometimes,,,,,


There are maybe 20 or more tricks to that

But you have an engine, with a proud, and storied history

I am real happy for you

WHile the Chryslers,,,,were in there pits,,,pulling off the heads between rounds,,,and pulling off the pan,,,,changing bearings,,,bending pushrods, dropping valves and so on,,,,they were pulling around 7000
And the FORD cammer was winning and winning,,,,,,and revving up to 8500

Also, i just wondered,,,this is a street car, right?  Why the solid motor mounts  ?  I guess I'd ask, why not use the stock style, and pin them?  Just wondered.

Welcome to the club FORD man

Also,,,in case I forget,,,,get the original Ford SOHC manual......it is a help too

Of  on the stub cam,,,if you are not running super stiff springs, we did a lot as designed, but on blown, we just added a second key,,,,you just broach the sprocket,,,we had a broacher, or just send it out, to a broach shop,,,not expensive,,,then, use a woodruff cutter, in a mill, and add a second key, 180' away from the original key.  One pal, went about 100,000 miles on the street that way.

We also, later, added a back up dowel  .... just press on one end, reamed to slide on the other.  This does not affect the temper or heat treat.

I would also, read a few,,,How to Build a Race Engine books maybe....especially the older ones, that had a lot of FE's in them,,,for fun, and for more techniques maybe...reference

Best

Tom


Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 10, 2014, 09:40:50 AM
Hi Tom,

Thank you for all of the insight.  I guess I can answer a lot of these questions by just answering the first one.  I have never built an engine before.  EVER.  I saw an article on this engine and sold my twin Paxton supercharged 1968 Mustang fastback to buy all the parts.  I have been researching and hoarding parts since late 2008.  I understand that it is almost ridiculous that I am trying to assemble this engine as my "first experience", but I have been hooked on this engine ever since first seeing it.

I think being patient and triple/quadruple measuring will be key.  I do have access to a machine shop, and wont hesitate to bring the engine back if measurements don't add up.  This engine will not be raced (Fortunately or unfortunately).  Just something really cool to cruise around South Beach in or possibly go on a power tour.

I believe I have collected all of the correct measurements/specs for this engine as far as clearances, tolerances, torque specs, etc. and as you stated, I think just going super slow will be key. 

Please feel free to unload on me!  I don't take anything as criticism.  I will do as below this weekend.  I have all the tools needed for the deburring, I have all the brushes, taps, dies, cleaning solutions, compressed air wands, Large containers to scrub the block in, thread chasers, complete grade etc.

Any bit of help will be appreciated and once I get going, I will post photos as I go.  Don't mind picking up extra sets of bearings or gaskets, so these will be kept in mind.

I am going to start Tonight.  I have all of the Moroso block cleaning brushes.  5 gallons of degreaser, hot soapy water and enough WD 40 for 5 blocks.  Going to deburr, chase threads, wallow(Champher?) out the oil feed holes in the mains based off of the bearings I am using, The oil feed holes on the #5 main cap (Made up of 4 or 5 separate return holes) needs cleaning.  I noticed the machining on those was not to good and there seems to be slag, I may or may not tap the stock oil dip stick tube hole.  The after market pan I have has its own, but they inserted a pipe plug in it incase you chose to go stock.  After all of that, I will be degreasing, scrubbing, chasing threads, re-degreasing, washing, and then oiling.... followed by plugging up all of the oil galleys to keep the freshly cleaned block clean.  Then on to the micrometer and test fitting.

Please, PLEASE keep an eye out on what I am doing incase you have additional suggestions.  I am no professional, but I have a passion and a desire to pick up as much knowledge as possible on FE's.  I sit all day working at a desk in an office, and by night, a grease monkey at heart.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 10, 2014, 10:08:31 AM
Actually just thought of another question while doing some reading.  When taking measurements with a Micrometer (For the crank journals for instance), when you do multiple measurements (usually at 90 degrees from eachother), do you take the average and work out the clearances?  Or do you take the larger of the measurements and base clearance off of that?

So say you do a 3 point measurement on the crank journal.  Say it has measurements that are fairly close with minimal "out of round", are you averaging these numbers?  (and if so, what is an acceptable out of round on FE's?)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: HolmanMoodyStroppeVet on July 11, 2014, 12:13:26 AM
On a well ground crank you don't want to see any taper or out of round. If you see out of round, they may have a worn grinder, or may have rushed ?  Taper just means that you did not adequately dress the stone. Worn ways can be a factor too, in the bed of the machine.  Maybe look for a tenth, or 0001. But it should be perfect because it is new, correct? Who did what there ?

Like I think I said, I measure the rods and mains, then send the dimensions to the crank shop. This way you set the clearance. Let's see what you have.

I had a thought after I said hi.  Why not double check what you measure, by doing a plasti gage test too. See how what you deduce, compares to the plastigage.  I say this, because I had a guy, who kept getting his specs way off.  He was heavy handed. This confirmed it for him. Just a thought.

Very nice to hear that you are digging into the details.  I was going to add, make an extended nose blow nozzle. Take a standard one, drill it, and slide in a flared piece of brake tubing, or similar in from behind the tip.  The taper stops it from blowing out, you can champher a register inside.  I let the business end have a slight angle, no flare, and de burr it well. Make it around 2 geet long and from 1/4 or 5/16 th mild, soft steel. 

You can slide that deep in the cooling passages, with the block deck, turned down, to drain down, and blast out chips and slag sometimes. That is nice if it never gets to the water pump and so on.

You can also slide it down an oil passge.  Chips can be sharp, and wedge in. This helps dislodge  some of them for me.

On the GT 40 style FE's, and for Can Am level engines, and for others too, we completly metal finished every part of the block sometimes.  That meant, all of the porosity, was knocked down, or smoothed. 

I have spent 3 days, probably, on one block to replicate this.  Even on a current Sprint car style build. One reason, was to make double sure any porosity, or sand inside of it, or abrasive residue, was removed. Another was, again, reducing any potential stress risers, that can yield a crack, other reasons included faster oil drain back. 

This was seen as better, than painting it all inside, with Rustoleum, which was the trick of the month for a few years.  A lot of us deburr before the machining too. For next time pal.

I do not think that you need to do this at all.  You can just do what is adequate to get your sharp edges laid back, or chamfered. Confirm the thread depth and so on.

So continue the good work.

You suggest that I lay into you or something. That will never happen intentionally. No way.

As I said somewhere, I laugh all day and crack jokes. I love to smile with people and be up tempo. When I type, and I am slowly learning, I may sound edgy but I sure am not.  I just type as best I can.

 I don't try to criticize, or sound anything but like a kind in a Ford man, helping another, in a Ford man way. As best I can. And learning as wel. But we all get rhiled, for cause.

I am not talking your way, I am speaking of the other Garage, and a few of the folks there. 

If you think I was lecturing, I was not.  Just trying to help, give ideas, suggestions.


This is going to be fun, I have great confidence in you.  I know that you will do well.

And heck, you have a Saleen.  They moved into the second Stroppe Shop, after the 3rd move to be close to Venolia and others. So that always makes me smile too.

Lot's of fast stuff came from those 4 walls, so carry on.

Now, remember, I have this thought to throw out.  To cackle into the car show, and wake them up, maybe just ponder, more compression?  You can mix gas, pull back the total timing, program an advance map for the street ? 

Maybe do this. Listen to a 10 to 1 SOHC,,,then listen to a 13 to 1 SOHC.  I hear a huge difference and love the rat a tat tat tat aspect.  Maybe kick it around.  We run high compression on a lot of the collection here, and a lot of blowers, so we just have a VP fueling station in house.

And we mix a lot too. It is just one more step and kind of fun.  If you are too far away, you can always dump in Premium and 'pussy foot' it back home.  Anyway, I like squeaze but you know your goal.  I dig it, thanks

On the 10-1 side, once done and dialed, keeping it sane, does, make it more attractive to many guys if you decide to sell it.  But if you sell it, you have to simply, build another !

Thanks now
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 11, 2014, 06:38:06 AM
Thanks, I appreciate any and all insight.  When I said "Lay into me", it was just a figure of speech.  The more you can advise, throw out ideas, tricks and tips/ opinions learned with your experience, the more I learn.  :0)   When I got home last night I got started.  I put the crank in a 20 gallon tub .  I rubbed the whole crank down with degreaser and a clean shop towel.  After this, I broke out the brush set.  I made sure I brushed inside each oil passage  (using a cup or degreaser to pour in as I went.  After that, I brought the crank over to the sink (Which in my garage is right next to the hot water heater.  Got the water nice and warm, and then scrubbed it down (also using the pipe brushes to get inside the oil holes.

Then placed the crank on a table covered in the blue shop towels (in order to reduce foreign materials) and used the air compressor with my new 2ft wand blower.  I liked this one because it gave me reach, as well as a fine nozzle for really putting out compressed air.  I blew off the whole crank (turning it as I went).  I spend extra time blowing out the oiling holes to make sure everything was clean and dry inside.  I have to admit I hate putting water on raw metal, but as soon as I was done drying everything, I started with the WD 40.  I put a liberal shot of WD 40 down each oiling hole, and then used the air compressor to shoot it all the way through.  Then an extra shot down each hole for good measure.

After everything had a protective coating of WD 40, and while still on my clean working surface, I broke out the new tool!  My Micrometers come yesterday.  Using the 2"- 3", I started by making sure the tool read correctly.  Closing the caliper all the way, we were lined up right at "0".  Then using the calibrating block they supply, again right on mark.

Starting with the #1 main journal, I used the ratcheting portion of the caliper until we were snug on both sides, but could still gently slide off.  Came in right at 2.750.  To make sure, I put the caliper down and left it for 10 minutes (as I heard the heat from your hand can build up and throw off the measurement.  10min later, it came in again at exactly at 2.750.

It was late and I had to get up early the next morning, so crank was wrapped in clean clear plastic and stored.  I will measure the rest of the mains tonight.  After we are all measure up, I am going to start deburring, chamfering, and thread chasing on the block, and then it's getting into my little "Cammer hot tub of degreaser"!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: HolmanMoodyStroppeVet on July 11, 2014, 11:34:33 PM
Hello Cammer Bud

Happy that you have some mic's, but we are missing 10 increments as I explained.

2.750 is a measurement in thousandths

We need a measurement in ten thousandths.  So you learn to read a Vernier scale

It should be on the back side?  With lines and an 0, then a 1, then a 2 and all the way back to 0 ?

That scale is where this whole game is played.  Right now we have a big range

If you do have a 2.7500    great .

And you said close the caliper,,,,,a caliper and a mic are a lot different.  A Caliper is usually good to accuracy in the +- 001 range when compared to a precision measuring device which is a mic.  A mic, has an anvil, and a thimbal that you twist up and down a finely ground thread.  Just to get your terms square pal

Going to check it for straight?

This is a good one for the spare bearings, new is fine, clean them.

I always set a crank in a big engine lathe, on good centers, and use a jeweled large face Starret indicator that reads tenths finely

You can also roll the block, pan rail up.  Set in the upper shells for main 1, the thrust, and 4 or 5 .  No caps go on.   You pre oil your bearing shells, with a nice engine building tool.  A spotlessly clean hand pump gun for oil. Mine are all metal. Look at Grainger maybe.  Plastic and metal is OK too. I keep one with 30 W, and one with Marvel Mystery Oil.   

Just put 3,4 drops on the bearings. And some one the crank. Lay it in slowly and true.  Drop some drops of oil on the main journal that you can see.

Now you learn you may want another tool for aluminum engines,  A smooth, flat plate to bolt to the pan rail, I have many, tool steel, ground dead flat.  You can used cold rolled, hot rolled is for construction and trailers kind of

With that plate picking up just a few screws, mount a magnetic dial indicator base next to each main.  I again, use a big face tenth indicating Starret jeweled movement, for more accuracy. 


Then gently turn the crank, and do it, so the friction tries to pull the bearing tang  down. This way it won't slide the shell up and out of the block. Thats rare but it can happen. Now indicate all of the 5 journals and tell us what you find, in tenths. 

Again, to the .0001. 

When done, pull the crank slowly, sometimes a shell may try to stick a bit, just go slow.  I stored all of my cranks in a rack, vertically.

I have seen a billet crank bend a bit, stored over the Winter on a bent table.  Not mine, an A Gas Anglia from back when. Some debate it here, I trust Sonny Bryant and Henry Velasco  there.

Be well and nice job

IS this crank in need of deburring?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 12, 2014, 08:00:17 PM
Im sorry. Yes the measurement is 2.7500.   No need of deburring on the crank. I actually tapped the oil dipstick hole on the block today for 1/2 NPT ( since the oilpan has a dipstick hole). I was going to mark the main journals oil feed holes on the block , but they seem to line up as well as can be expected, so no need for chamfering there. Tomorrow i am going to chase all the threads , degrease the whole block, scrub out the oil galleys, dry and insert pipe plugs.   Sorry for short post and no pics, but on an ipad.

Back tomorrow!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 13, 2014, 07:34:27 PM
Ok today was a long day. Power washed the block. Degreased, blown out, oiled up.

Oddly enough, mail oil clearances all came in within range 0.002 - 0.003.  I am definitely grateful for that!  Put in all the oil galley plugs i could find.  I still need to get the correct oil galley plug for the dip stick tube I tapped for 1/2 NPT.  Last time I was at the auto parts store, I purchased 3 sets of main seals just to ensure I had extra incase I screwed up a set or 2.  Clocked the rear main seal just a tiny bit so the seams did not match up to the mating surface of the cap/block.  End seals actually went in fairly easy.  I lubed them up with the TA-31, and they slid right down.  Used a small punch to put the nails in.  All is flush with the bottom of the block.  As a side note, when you use the dial bore gauge, the end makes tiny marks on the bearing.  I was reading another forum post, and it seems that these are no big deal and will not cause any problem.  The post actually said to use a piece of brown paper bag and some oil and you can buff it out (But its not necessary). So, bottom end complete.  Only had the crank in and out 3 times  HAHAHA.  On to the pistons!  I think I will wait until next weekend for the pistons as just getting the bottom end together yesterday took me like 5 hours.  Either way, its all buttoned up.

 See video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2TLXsDJwrU
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: HolmanMoodyStroppeVet on July 14, 2014, 11:55:52 AM
I do it a lot different and did you a nice essay. I hit spell check and lost about 20 minutes work.  Poof,,,gone

Quickly, you can adjust clearances. Give us all of the sizes that you should organize on a 'Build sheet".  You can move bearing shells to change the clearance slightly, the shells are usually very close...but...I want to know WHY you have this variance.

Did you check the crank for straight?  Please post

Did you fit the rings first? With a plate or not

Check the cam fit?  Only 2 bushings but if cocked?  We get to create chips

Any more chips mean I wash it, plugs out.

Check and adjust the side clearances on the rods?  I check that during a mock up, often the crank, on the bench, rods, snugged, and see how close they are to start. If close, fine, if off, we mic all the rods and there is a few tricks to get them all the same

I run mine, all the same.

Measure the main bearing bores?

Please list these specs.

My cranks come from Velasco, Crower, Bryant and Scat.  0000 taper, 0000 out of round and no  bend. Why are they 3 tenths up and down?

More later

We never had to offset a main seal on a FE. It is OK, but a Chevy guy trick, that engine has a lot less sealing area.  Thats fine, kind of a Ford guy joke...but flush is fine too, with one dab of non hardening permatex. Have this side seal Ford trick too.

Nice job

I'd dis assemble it and see what we can fix, but for a street engine, your OK.  You will lose some oil pressure after break in the way you have it.

Did you fit the pistons too I wondered?  Measure it all, with a head plate on, measure the slugs, then see if they need to be swapped here and there to get the clearances closer?

Nice job pal, you are learning

Gotta work

Thanks
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 14, 2014, 12:00:24 PM
Also of note, I believe the Pond SOHC block does not have an oil galley plug in the distributor area.  I am guessing because there are no lifters, so none of the oil passages associated with them were machined.

Also, 3/8th pipe plug was slightly too large for the mail oil galley in the rear of the block.  I have some 1/4 pipe plugs on the way (which is also the size I tapped the stock dipstick tube hole).

None of the pipe plugs I installed with the thread sealer were completely flush.  I am not sure if this is going to cause any issues (They were close to flush), but I did not want to "wrench" down on them in fear of stripping threads or cracking something.  Like I said, not sure this will be an issue???
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 14, 2014, 12:12:59 PM
I did not do a mock up.  The rings were purchased for 4.250 bore from Diamond with the pistons.  I am hoping they all come in at spec, but if a few of the are off, I will ensure after a slight filing and de-burring, they are squeaky clean before being put back in the cylinder (I understand that the smallest of grit can wear down the rings during use.)

When I said between 0.002 and 0.003, I only listed the range that it acceptable for the SOHC.  I did not record the measurements on the Main journals of the crank as I was under the impression that only the clearance is of importance.  Once I locked the Micrometer down on a crank journal measurement, I "0"ed out the Dial bore caliper and measured the Block main journal with the bearings torqued to 110 and the side bolts to 70.

As long as the dial bore gauge came in between 0.002 and 0.003, I moved on to the next.  Is this correct?

I plan to do the same measurement on the crank and rod journals, but figured you can do this while crank has been installed.  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on July 14, 2014, 01:10:38 PM
I assume that now the crank spins relatively freely in the block?  With no rods or pistons in place, and the main caps torqued, you should be able to grab the snout of the crank with your hand and turn it.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 14, 2014, 01:22:10 PM
I assume that now the crank spins relatively freely in the block?  With no rods or pistons in place, and the main caps torqued, you should be able to grab the snout of the crank with your hand and turn it.

Yes sir!  spins like butter now!  Interesting how the torque frees up the crank.  Any suggestions for the ring gaps on this engine? I am going to measure the oil clearance on the rod bearings and then get started on fitting the rings. (Probably this weekend)

Through the miracle of the internet (and Im sure there are specs in the Piston box), I was able to find these.  Do they look correct?

Piston Rings

Width:       (Top) .062    (2nd)  .062   (Oil Control)  .125

End Gaps:   (Top) .028   (2nd) .028    (Oil Control)  .032

Groove Clearance: (Top) .0027  (2nd) .0027   (Oil Control)  Snug To Groove


Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: HolmanMoodyStroppeVet on July 14, 2014, 08:28:27 PM
Hello Cammer man,

You say that you found some dimensions on the net, I want you to think this through please.

You never know what you have until you actually measure it. I wouldn't trust the net for a dimension, you as the builder have to confirm it all. Just measure it all to be sure. We always have. Any one little thing can bite you. Every size and spec in an engine is your responsibilty. Your reputation is made from how well you do.

 For ring lands, I say confirm it all. I have hardened and ground blocks, called go no go gauges. They are precision ground, I made then years ago, heat treated tool steel, surface ground.

You just check all of the lands, piston by piston, they should be fine but I have caught a bad one or two this way, on custom pistons.  You can stack feeler gages but be careful not to score the lands. Make sure your feelers do not have a sharp edge which some have,dress it back.

 I have caught inadequate back space too.  Check that by setting the ring in face first, the part that rubs the cylinder wall, slide it in to the back of the ring land, then measure the clearance from the front of the ring lands, to the curved back of the ring. This gap is your back spacing. Do them all. Less can be more on a competition carb car.  Give us this spec.  Keep your specs on a build sheet too. This way, when you pull it down to service it some day, you can gage what wore by remeasuring the used parts.

Then measure all the rings, for width, they are usually all fine, but I check it, all of it, to the tenth. Most custom piston makers, have a ring room full of rings to sell with the slugs.  I recall 2 times, having to trade back some scrapers that were about a thou less wide, just to match the remainder.  I suspected that kits got mixed and this happens. So it takes less time than typing this, ha ha.

For you, this is a good learning exercise. Might as well practice with the mic's and the tenth vernier scale.?

You can feeler gage the width of the land too, by comparing a new ring to it. Slide the ring in backward again, then see how your 0015 gage fits, then 002. And depth mike the back spacing.

Also,but you need to decide if you want to gap the rings with a torque plate on or not. If I dont plate hone a block, which is rare, but this is sometimes done on a lot of blown stuff, with sleeves, then no plate is used to fit the rings. There is a case for stressing the bore to gap the rings anyway, but this is your call as the builder.

But if you are trying to win, in class racing, or in a team setting,you can do a long list of tricks, including doing the valve job or lapping the valves with a torque plate installed. Lapping rings, lots of little tricks.  You are not really going to need that, but, when you fuss and fuss, you get some satisfaction too. When you leak down the engine later, and all of the numbers are the same, and small, you kind of smile. This can be the edge you need, the game of harnessing free horsepower, or building an engine that lives long enough to win, and that does not grenade.


Often a well built engine has more even static and dynamic compression too, and usually better cylinder balance, power wise, and more. Compression balancing can actually extend crankshaft/bearing life and more.  Often the out drives, like all of the chains on a Cammer, see less stress

On TRW or FED Mo pistons, I have shimmed the back space out, you can get special shim stock 'expanders' which is spring tempered stainless. It can help some class builds, not needed for most new style pistons. Never hurt back then. Still do it in some settings.  So look into the land depth and tell us what it is.

 Your suggested end gaps are not ideal. Lets hear who's piston, what ring, and if you are setting them with or without a torque plate.  You can call your piston vendor for a nice starting point.  They suggest these dimensions a lot, due to the properties of their specific material, forgings and so on. 

You are designing a lot of horses out of this engine, by reducing the compression and cam timing, so, a lot of the high speed, or blown gaps do not apply. The bore concentricity factors in, so tell us more please.  I'd like to see how round and tapered your bores actually are, just measure it, take notes. Give us the specs please.

Some guys use a head plate, to distort the bore, but then relax it, and do the rings without re stressing the block.  We always asked, if we fit the pistons with a head plate,why not the rings?  Ideally, the bore should be measured and fit the same way to me, plate on, so doing the rings, plate on, always made sense to us. 

Here,you have an alloy block, with sleeves, it is less of an issue but worth comparing. Depends upon how trick you want to be. Depends on the actual parts too.  SOme blocks from the same vendor, and not as hard as others, same with heads.  Some end up too soft, and some won't even maintain the torque for long.

On doing that job, gapping the rings, I have special tools that you can make.  These make doing it all the same, and a lot easier.  I have a big piece of stock that is turned and make a depth setting fixture.  It pushes the ring down, the same, every time, with a torque plate on. We use a similar tool to set the sleeves

That reminds me, again, did you set the sleeves our did your machinist?

On gapping the rings, I also had some flat top pistons, which are made in steps, like 4.00, 04.03,4.05,4.133 and so on.  The head or crown  is turned flat in a lathe, just mount the soft jaw piston vise jaws(another tool a good engine shop has), and the skirt is turned mostly off too.  These are for use if a torque plate is off. The depth works fine on the bare deck ring gapping operation.  Usually blown/sleeved/billet block, or bone stock

It is de burred.   It has three washers pressed into a land, at 120 degrees apart, to slide the rings, one by one, hole by hole, to the same depth in the bore.  This is much easier than 'Eye balling' each one, and guessing if it is really square. If it is not square,the gap comes out wrong.


I have used a dial caliper, you cinch the stop screw so that is not moving ,,,LOL  And use the depth part, to set the ring square to measure, in a pinch, building at a race.
This is slow and tedious. I would figure something out.

Do it right if you have time. The washers just act as down stops to let you work better.  Start the ring , then push it home with the checker, slowly. Then measure the gap, pull it out, trim a thou, back in, square, check again. Over and over.

Then use masking tape or a layout table to number each ring pack, for the hole that it was gapped for.

Now for my concern,

On the main bearing clearances, you have some at 0020, and some at 0030 ? And you have decided to run that, and not see if the crank is running out? 

Don't be offended please, we do a bone stock street gas build at least within a few tenths out here, so you do whatever you like.  For me?  I would do my best to make it nice.

Sure, after break in, you can lose a tenth or two off of some bearing inserts, but the big crank pin here, say the 0020 clearance guy, can settle in it's bearing, by point loading it to wear faster. The 003 journals will kind of let the tight guy even out,but in doing so, that bearing loses over plate, and some of the features designed in.  On a street engine, a cold start is a big wear factor, so having the crank setting pretty even, helps it live.

Tell us your clearances 1,2,3=Thrust,need 2 specs please,4,5

Coated or non coated bearings I wondered too? Coatings have never been better. More free horsepower or durabilty sometimes, free meaining, psiton vs piston, etc. Power wise.

Can you list the main bore sizes as well?  In the block, that size? On the X or vertical axis? And the eccentricity and so on?

Personally?  I have never assembled a street or endurance engine with a full thou variation.  On a fuel car, just going back for another pass, with 60 or 70W, no big deal.

But that extra 001, is a half a thou per side, and a half a thou, well on some components in an engine, that can be bad. Like on a wrist pin, to the rod or inside the piston to the pin. 

Little side note, we want to check your pin fit too,pin to piston, and check the pin fit to the small end of the rod, and also the wrist pin end play to the lock rings, for later.

But remember, the mains feed the rods. Your oiling system, is a series of controlled leaks, daisy chained one after another.   A pressure loss here, affects the pressure down the line sometimes.  We were keen on maintaining the oil pressure and volume all of the way to the back main.  We did a lot of testing to help engine live.

The rate and volume fed to the rods, is affected, by the leakage, at the mains. So a real loose goose main,will deny the adjacent rods some measure of oil. In turn, the side clearance of pair of rods, will splash a bit less too, while others may be biased to through more. That affects things like pin and cylinder wall lubrication, and the rate of which the underside of the piston is cooled.  Splash helps pull away piston crown heat too.  I like it all even and close.

If you list all of your dimension in columns, as suggested, the cause of this range will be on that page.  The numbers reveal a lot. Is it the block, crank, a bearing?  I wonder and want to improve this if possible.

Tolerances can also 'stack' on you.  Parts range sometimes, so changing them around, can sometimes improve the fit. So can some adjustments.

I wonder, did they hone the main saddles funny.  Sometimes if you rush a guy this happens.

If the main pin/journal is small,and the bearings shells there mic smallest, the block may have been honed wrong.  This happens if guys are not good at doing billet caps.

If you do not dress the stones on the line hone well, and often, and/or trade sides at and even rate, some guys line hone a taper in a block.  I do it from the front for 3 licks, then the back, 3 licks. That evens out the work.  Measuring all the way helps

If I get a line honed block, I dial bore gage it, and confirm that it was done correctly. I hope you did this too.  All machine work is not automatically 'right on' at all, no sir.

This is why I want your numbers.  I have seen guys hand me a block, honed, and the saddles taper 001 front to back, or back to front. Thats because the honing stones were not trued well.  On an aluminum block, the block is soft compared to the billet caps, so this can mess the machinist up if he does a lot of stockers only. It can taper the stones fast too.

I suspect that the block may be tapered.   If so, the machinist owes you a do over

Also

On setting the rear seal, and gluing it in, do you plan to let the filings from doing the rings just fall into the bores, maybe down to the crank, or will you just run it.?  I wanted to figure that timing out too.  I want your sequence to come together well

Personally, you can't do that in a race engine shop that I know of.  The filing happens in the mock up area or machine area,you clean, then assemble.   So one room is fine, just keep the grindings out of the finished engine.  Gapping rings creates shavings, you can clean each ring, over and over, in and out, but this is too slow and un needed really.

Just another little fyi tip in case it helps ya pal.

You can do anything for your own stuff, but I wasn't trained that way, so I think my point is about sequencing, and doing high quality work.  I file fit the rings way before I final install a crank. Set the side clearances on the rod pairs, confirm the piston to wall, and the rest of the little things I suggested.

Remember, the mock up goes through these steps, and sometimes the pistons, after checking the valve to piston, come out to get milled for more clearance.  So until I know how the piston to valve is, I get this correct, then balance it even.  If you have to add valve reliefs, you lighten the pistons some more. So the crank needs a bit less bob weight. Some guys get in a rush there, and have to pay to re balance !

Your shortened ramp cam, and current pistons should be OK, but remember this for the next time.  And check it. Get 16 low tension checking springs installed on your heads too.  And figure out a plate or bracket to mount you dial indicator base on to check all of the valves.

Also...

I sometimes relieve the bores in a small bore cammer like yours too, did you check that and look into it?  We often shaped the edges of the bores or allow the valve to flow a bit less disruptively. That requires grinding, pin rolls, carborundum dust, again, you do a full clean, after.  For the street, you don't need that handlful of ponies maybe.

On the rings again, also, did you have a stone to dress the edges?  I used a diamond file, it is square, and an Ozark stone.  That is a fine grained, semi soft dressing stone.

Each end of the ring must be carefully chamfered.

Do you have a ring gapping tool, machine, or just free handing them with a file?  If you are a very skilled metal shaper, the file can be OK, but I had the trick machine with the electric motor, now I just use the hand cranker which is fine, and stone them 2 ways.  You do not want a sharp edge there, cutting the ring lands, the rings rotate and you do not want the ring acting like a cutting tool

One tip, go slow. It is easy to over cut a ring and you can't do much but get another for the set.

On a Moly ring, I do not file or de burr in a back forth motion, I go in one direction, to avoid any isses similar to the old Ramco Double Moly days.  Just a habit based in TLC kind of.  You ring set and seal is a crucial aspect of your engine.

OK, have fun

Be careful doing the rings, they can cut your fingers.  As you gap them, the edge gets sharpened some times, and it can get ya.  Seen guys cut and cut their hands if not careful.  A Latex glove can help.

If you are trying to be trick, well this is not a race engine I see, pump gas,that's cool.  I have another special tool, to assemble the oil rings, in each piston, slide them in, using a tapered piston installation cone, the old Ed Pink kind. Upside down.  The piston for each hole, and only the oil ring, go in the bore upside down, to the bottom.  Then you pull the piston up the bore, by the pin, with a tension reading pull scale.  You read the scale and note the drag.

That way, you can adjust the expanders to the drag you need, and make them all the same.   You just need the side of a bench grinder usually, fine wheel, dress the expander slightly,and then deburr, re test.

If the clearances are all equal, and the oil rings all draging away on the oil film in the bore equal, and the rod side clearances are also equal, along with the oil volume, enhanced with equal clearance,we figured, for a race engine, the oil film per hole, might be more equal, so any scuffing might be more uniform, along with wear.

If you are just in a hurry to build a street engine, some of these blueprint tricks are for learning the trade, or acquiring a higher level of precision.  It is also part of why a Pro has to charge you what they charge. Blueprinting a carb engine, takes a lot of time and special tools. 

Nice work, just giving you glimpse into how we did it for Ford back when, and since.

Hang in there. 

You can just 'bolt it together', some do,or blueprint it, and that comes in levels.  We did/do tenth tolerance engines.  That is an advantage for some settings.  I think all of these expensive parts deserve no less to be frank, but if you get close,given the target use,cool beans maybe.  This is your call.  I just don't want to see you miss something that can 'hurt it.'

But a lot of guys get it close, and send it. This is your build sheet. .we can make suggestions and give tips, but you own the result as the builder.  The result and outcome can be very nerve racking at times.

I like precise assembly, that is how we did it at Ford Racing, very very fussy.

But for the street, some guys just get it close for sure.

I have to be honest, I do not like 0020 and 0030.  For us, that has to get corrected.  Crank may be tweaked. And I never lay a crank until I know how straight it is. I explaned how to check it with an indicator.

If you want to get a better idea, just do the steps I shared. Then let us know.  I still wonder why you found taper and eccentricity there too.

Good luck and have fun pal.  If you lived close by I could be more help. Typing an engine together is , well, a challenge for me...I think I gave you a jump start.

Patience and precision is good, to us.

I am really busy, working long days and weekends.  Please email me if I can help further. 

You have a fun car in the works and I am proud of you for trying to learn how to build an FE.

Thanks




Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 18, 2014, 07:25:06 AM
OK, LOL  its the little things that are taking a long time with me.  Since there is no place to pick up stuff like what Jegs/Summit sells near me, I have to keep ordering.  I got the 1/4 NPT pipe plugs, and I was able to plug up the stock dip stick tube opening I tapped, but the Main oil galley in the back of the block is killing me!  I finally figured out its not tapped for a pipe plug.  Its 9/16-18 AN Port plug with a bevel for the O-Ring that comes on it!!!  Its on its way as of last night.  I am sure I could move forward before, but I would feel better with the oil galleys all sealed up before going on.   ::)

Also, Jegs sent me the wrong ring square tool and the wrong TDC piston stop!  So they are on their way back for an exchange of the correct ones.  For now, All is sealed up under an engine storage bag.....   :'(
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 18, 2014, 01:39:53 PM
Also on my list of rookie things overlooked.....  I do not have a Crankshaft key.  I am going to have to order one for this RPM crank, but I want to make sure I get the right one.  When I look at a ford FE crank key for a Scat crank, people have been saying that the Mr. Gasket BB Chevy ones are the correct ones.  I am wondering if the RPM international crank is the same?

Also there looks like a separate key to hold the balancer.  Is that correct?  so 3 keys in total?  The one that holds the balancer seems to be a long key
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 19, 2014, 03:50:09 PM
While I am again waiting on Jegs, I thought I would go ahead and measure the Crankshaft "Runout".  I Made sure to use a large screwdriver to push the crank all the way forward (using the crank counterweight and the rear main cap)  the in reverse.  Each time I did this, and I did it 3 times to be sure, it came in at 0.005
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on July 19, 2014, 05:18:35 PM
According to my factory specs for a 427,  0.004" to 0.010" with a wear limit of 0.014".
Looks like your in the zone.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 19, 2014, 08:31:45 PM
Awesome. Thanks Howie. On to the next step!!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on July 19, 2014, 09:55:33 PM
Your .005 should be fine as Howie stated, however FYI its not "runout"   Runout is typically measuring for a bend in the crank, oval shape on a single journal, or mis-machined surface like a flywheel by measuring the wobble, for lack of a better term.

Runout can be also thought as "how far the measurement you are checking changes as it turns"

What you measured is thrust clearance, which is very important, and too tight is worse than too loose.  Odds are you'll gain at least a thou the first time you push the clutch in too.  You are good to go

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 21, 2014, 07:16:14 AM
Thanks.  After you said that, I had to go back into the manual to see what they call it.  LOL  I am about 1 step up from calling things "Do-hickey" and "Thing-a-ma-jig".  For my own self betterment, I am going to try and get the correct terms before I post. 


Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: lovehamr on July 21, 2014, 11:21:47 AM
Also on my list of rookie things overlooked.....  I do not have a Crankshaft key.  I am going to have to order one for this RPM crank, but I want to make sure I get the right one.  When I look at a ford FE crank key for a Scat crank, people have been saying that the Mr. Gasket BB Chevy ones are the correct ones.  I am wondering if the RPM international crank is the same?

Also there looks like a separate key to hold the balancer.  Is that correct?  so 3 keys in total?  The one that holds the balancer seems to be a long key

The whole crank key thing threw me the first time I built an FE as well.  If I'm remembering things correctly, there should be 2.  One is nothing more than .25" bar stock which you can buy at a lot of hardware stores for a few cents per foot then cut to size.  BTW, I'm pretty sure I still have some around here.  That one indexes the crank sleeve and oil slinger.  The other is a half moon type and indexes the balancer.  I'm sorry but I don't know the size, my machinist had a small box of them, rumaged through them and found one that would work.  I'm sure most machinists would have a selection like that.  Hope that helps man.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 21, 2014, 03:29:19 PM
Thanks,  I went ahead and purchased the bar stock one as well as a pack of the chevy half moon keys.  I read that these aftermarket cranks use the chevy ones and not the stock Ford FE ones.  Like you said, if they don't fit, I will see if the machineshop has some extra laying around they can spare.

Thanks!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 23, 2014, 05:29:20 PM
OK on to the next question!!!  I had the day off today, so I started with the Rod bearing clearance.  I have been a little nervous about the machine work on my Crankshaft, but so far so perfect!  In measuring the Cranks rod journals, I made 2 measurements on each (Since there is 2 rods to a journal).  Each came in at 2.200....  again being a little cautious, I have been leaving the Micrometers in the garage so they are acclimated to the temperature in there.  I went back about 20 minutes later and remeasured, and again they all came in at 2.200.
After locking in the Micrometer at the first journals measurement, I "0" out the dial bore gauge.  I unwrapped the first Eagle ESP H beam rod (upgraded with ARP 2000 rod bolts)... cleaned it, cleaned it again and cleaned it again (until the towel showed no residue).  Then I unwrapped the Speed pro bearings and cleaned, clearned and cleaned.  I rubbed it down with WD 40 and torqued it all together to 75 Ft Lbs.  The measurement I am looking for is between 0.002 and 0.003.  The measurement (top to bottom (90 degrees from the bearing seam) came in at 0.0025  however when I measured the diameter where the bearings seams are, it came in at 0.004....  I know that the rod bearings are supposed to be football shaped in order to hold more oil where the load is the heaviest during combustion, but is 0.004 ok?  I stopped at the first one just to come on here and ask.  As all of the crank rod journals measured in the same, I think I will have these measurements (or fairly close) all the way down.  Can anyone advise?

Thanks!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on July 23, 2014, 07:39:42 PM
When you measure the .004" you are not right on the bearing parting line, are you?  The correct place to measure would be just slightly off the bearing parting line.  If you are doing that, then the measurement is correct and although it is likely that you would have no problem with those clearances, this would be a good place to replace one of the bearing shells with a .001" undersized one.  That would change your measurements to .002" and .0035", which would be a better set of measurements.

I'd recommend that you go ahead and measure each journal and each rod/bearing combination, and see if they really are all the same.  Many times they aren't...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 23, 2014, 08:18:42 PM
Hi Jay,


Yes the 0.004  is directly on the parting line.  90 degrees from the parting line I get 0.0025.  I will measure the rest one at a time to see how it goes.   It sounds like an "undersized bearing is thicker?  the undersized refers to the Crank journal being smaller in diameter....  That would make sense.  And with only 1 shell being replaced, that makes it 0.005 right?  Then, if you replaced both shells, then that would be 0.001
I think right off of the seam was around 0.0035, but ill measure again to be safe.
thanks Jay 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on July 23, 2014, 10:52:26 PM
Right, undersize refers to the crank journal, and a bearing that is .001 undersize means that each bearing shell is .0005 undersize.  If you are at .0035 when measuring just a bit off the parting line, I'd run the bearings as is.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 24, 2014, 07:34:28 AM
Thanks Jay.  I will double check each one as I go.  Worse comes to worse, I can either order a new set of undersized to swap a shell here and there, or I can try swapping out the Speed Pro bearings for the Clevite bearings that came with the rods to see if they measure up any better.  I understand that I cant mix brands, so if I try out the clevite, it will be both shells all the way across. ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: KMcCullah on July 24, 2014, 08:12:52 AM
Good read so far Jason. I think I read somewhere on this thread that your using a RPM crank. Pay attention to the style of rod bearings your using. If your RPM crank is untouched it will need an "H" style or chamfered on one side style of bearing because RPM leaves a fairly large radius on the edges of the rod journals.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 24, 2014, 08:32:44 AM
Thanks I will check.  I have noticed that the Eagle forged rods I am using have a large chamfer in the side that faces the crank weights and a small chamfer on the side that faces the other rod.  Does the bearing have to be chamfered even further>?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: KMcCullah on July 24, 2014, 08:46:03 AM
Your rods may have way more chamfer than needed. It's been a while since I've seen an Eagle rod. But I wouldn't add any more chamfer to an already chamfered bearing.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on July 24, 2014, 11:09:54 AM
Thanks I will check.  I have noticed that the Eagle forged rods I am using have a large chamfer in the side that faces the crank weights and a small chamfer on the side that faces the other rod.  Does the bearing have to be chamfered even further>?

The Federal Mogul bearings I usually use have one side chamfered more than the other, and that side should go towards the side of the rod with the larger chamfer.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 24, 2014, 11:37:01 AM
Hi Jay,

I will take a look.  I think the Rod bearings (Speed Pro- Sealed Power) that I am using have tangs on them just like the main bearings. I will check for Chamfer, but I think with the tangs I cannot reverse them if the chanfer is on the incorrect side.

Either way, I will check when I get home.

Also, I left a message with Diamond pistons, but was curious.  On the piston card, it says that I should place the "F" toward the front of the engine.  I had the Pistons ceramic coated on top and Teflon coated on the sides, so I don't know if that covered the "F".  My pistons are not symmetrical.  One side of the dome has a raised section.  Does the raised part face the front of the engine? Below is a picture from Diamonds catalog.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 25, 2014, 02:50:30 PM
OK I made a call to Diamond Pistons and found out that the Raised portion of the dome goes toward the front of the engine. (Larger depression is for intake valve and the smaller is for exhaust)  While on the phone with them (and looking at their catalog) I realized that my pistons had an asterisk next to them.  Seems the pistons I selected come with Oil rail supports.  After a short tutorial on Youtube, it seems straight forward.  The only think I am not sure about is the gap they require.  They don't seal the chamber, but are more of a structural support.  So what kind of end gap should they have?  Should it mirror something like the 2nd ring at 0.028?  Or just filed so there is no overlap, and they mate up square?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on July 25, 2014, 06:17:21 PM
The gap isn't critical on the oil ring rails.  The gap should not be over an open area, though, it should rest on the bottom oil ring land.  So, don't put the gap over the opening for the pin.  And make sure you install the pin before you put the support rail on, otherwise you may have to take it back off to get the pin in.  The oil ring rails will have a dimple in them; that dimple should face down, and that should be in the open area where the pin goes through.  Once you look it over carefully it will be fairly clear how the oil ring rails must be installed.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 26, 2014, 05:08:45 PM
OK, Its a rainy day down here in Ft. Lauderdale, so what better way to spend it..... GARAGE.  So the correct ring alignment tool came this morning from Jegs.  I set up the ring file, laid out all of the rings, got the feeler gauge and started.  I was a bit nervous about file fit for the first few bores, and then I was able to proceed with a little more confidence.  I was able (very very slowly) to get 0.023 for the top rings and 0.028 for the bottom rings.  Only one time did I file just a TINY bit too much where the feeler gauge wouldnt stick at 0.023.  I tried that top ring on every bore to see if it would possibly fit a little more exact in another bore, but they were all identical.  I ended up using that top ring on cylinder 7.  I believe it was 0.028-0.029 range.  I hope that will be ok for 1 top ring as I dont really want to buy another whole set for just 1 ring.

I am all ready to measure each Rod Journal/bearing clearance and tap the pistons down

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 26, 2014, 09:26:57 PM
#1 Cylinder at 0.0025 Oil clearance at the Rod Bearing....  On to the rest!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 26, 2014, 09:29:05 PM
Rod end with the upgraded ARP2000 bolts torqued to 75 ft lbs in the following increments (25-50-75)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 27, 2014, 05:59:42 PM
OK Milestone!  All 8 pistons are installed.  Clearance between rods came in between 0.021-0.024 (within spec).  Of note, and I'm sure the more experienced guys will get a kick out of this....  Installed pistons 1 - 7 before I realized that the domes dont all face the same way on both banks.....  I realized that I had the exhaust valve relief was on the wrong side on drivers side of block.... so instead of almost being done, I had to go back and turn cylinder's 5,6,7 around on the Rod.  Raised portion of the dome faces the front of the block on passenger side (exhaust valve facing out) and on the drivers side the raised portion of the dome faces the rear of the block (exhaust valve facing out).  Better that I caught it now then later.
I called Diamond pistons on friday to ask, but the girl that answered the phone was just making guesses between yawning.  Said all of her techs are at the track and no ones there on Friday.... WOW, I want a job there!~

Anyway, I need to see what the next step is, but at least I am making progress.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Joe-JDC on July 27, 2014, 10:12:47 PM
You turned the pistons around on 5,6,7?  Did you take them off the rod and re-install them with the chamfer on the rod facing the correct way towards the crankshaft radius?  I hope you did from what I read.  You can't turn the cylinder.  Joe-JDC.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 28, 2014, 06:52:20 AM
Yes,  I had the piston in backwards on 5,6,7.  I removed the spira locks, and made sure the Chamfer in the rod remained where it should be.  A learning experience for sure.  Anyway, the gap between the rods measured up within spec.  Turned the crank a few times just to make sure everything was smooth and it was.  So after I was done patting myself on the back for this little accomplishment, I realized I wasn't quite sure of the next step.  A little reading on Jay's 519" build and I see that the next step is to pin the gears together on the stub cam.  I managed to find the same bolts that were used in the 519" build,  I am ordering an End mill, and I already have the Tap.  Hopefully within the next few days I can get underway.

I actually have a few questions:

1.)  The heads were pre-assembled and I do not have the means to take off some of the springs to install checker springs.  Can the Cams be timed under the full load of a normal spring? (given that there are no hydraulic lifters to worry about and I have a mild cam as far as Cammers go)

2.) Since this engine does not have the cam in the center of the block, do you need to find top dead center when installing the smaller timing gears (Stub cam) and chain?  I wasn't sure (I'm guessing you still need to know top dead center when timing the cams in each head, but didn't see it mentioned on the 519" build.  I have the degree wheel and the "bridge TDC stop" that bolts over a cylinder.  I would assume you turn the crank until it hits, turn the crank the other direction until it hits, and then TDC would be the # in the middle?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on July 28, 2014, 09:11:05 PM
If you don't have a checker spring installed then you don't have any way of figuring out how much clearance you have at any given point in the valve lift.  Usually around TDC at overlap you will move the crank a few degrees at a time, and then push down on the valve until it contacts the piston, and see how much deflection you get on the dial indicator at the contact point.  With regular valve springs you don't have any way of pushing the valve down until it contacts the piston.  Your alternative is to assemble the #1 cylinder with clay on the piston, rotate the engine over with the normal valvetrain installed, and then remove the head and measure the thickness of the clay where the valve has deformed it.  Since the R&R on the SOHC is such a pain, with the chain and all the gears set up, its a lot easier with checker springs. 

On the small chain and gears it is sufficient to just line up the dots on the gears.  The crank gear dot will be facing up, and the large cam gear dot will be pointing down.  Get them pointed directly at each other when you install the short chain and that will work just fine.  Also note that the gear dot on the smaller cam gear will also be pointing down, like the dot on the larger cam gear.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 29, 2014, 10:35:05 AM
Thanks Jay.  I will see if I can fashion something in order to get the spring off.  I see they make a universal spring removal tool that they sell at Autozone.  Its like $20, and I don't see why it wouldn't work. 

So just so I understand, I will still use clay? (I saw you used a check spring and clay in the 519" build).  The only difference is that the check spring gives you the "worse case scenario" as far as valve depth?  And If I used a normal spring, the valve would not travel as "deep" just turning the crank by hand thus not giving you an accurate measurement?  Even when you use a check spring, the heads still need to come off to remove the clay for measurement right?

I believe out of the who build process, timing the cams has had me the most nervous (So much so that I purchased an extra set of the ferrea lightweight valves just incase)  lol  Hopefully I don't need them!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 29, 2014, 02:14:38 PM
OK, slowly I am putting this timing "business" together.  I realized that I need to find top dead center with the chain tensioned.  For the chain to be tensioned, the heads have to be installed with the cams/ cam gears.  Since the chain is tensioned, the front cover needs to be installed as to not deflect or bend the stub cam.  Now I see what you are talking about Jay!

OK I just purchased a universal valve spring removal tool.  Seems pretty simple, so I am hoping it will work with the cammer heads.  I also purchased a TDC indicator (spring actuated).  The one I had ordered from Jegs originally is a TDC stop.  The indicator I just purchased screws into the spark plug hole and can be used in conjunction with the Dial indicator to find TDC.  Also, these TDC indicators only come in 14mm thread size, so I got a 18mm to 14mm spark plug thread adapter so this all can be used.  While I was on the website, I picked up 2 sets of the comp cams checker springs (intake and Exhaust for Right head and left head).

Now the question I have it this.  When I get the heads on and install the cams with the dot on the cam gears facing straight up (in relation to the head and not the floor), what is the timing at?  The LCA on my cam card says 108 (I can double check the cam measurements now that I have a dial indicator), so does that mean with the "0" on the cam shaft aligned with the dot on the cam gear (aligned) the timing on both heads is at 108 starting off?  Then I would retard the cam on each head to the proper suggested 105 degree on the 102 degrees on the right head?

This is going to sound silly, but where does finding TDC come in with relation to moving the cam/cam gears to get the correct timing.  Sorry for the silly question, but I want to make sure.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on July 29, 2014, 03:07:20 PM
You don't need to have the secondary (long) chain tensioned to find TDC.  You can actually find top dead center with the heads off, using a standard piston stop method as you described previously.  But then you'd need to mark it somehow to get back to it later, after you install the heads and valvetrain.  Maybe install your harmonic balancer on the crank and make some kind of a temporary pointer to point to TDC when you find it, but that pointer will have to bolt on someplace where the front cover doesn't.  Since the harmonic balancer is keyed, you could then remove it, assemble the rest of the components, and put it back on, and if your pointer hasn't moved you should still have top dead center at that position.

I always just install the heads first and then do all the other stuff after that.  I made up a piston stop by cutting the center out of an old plug and welding in a steel rod, so I can find TDC with the heads installed.  Your dial indicator setup should work just fine too.  Also my spring compressor works with the head installed, so I can install checker springs or reinstall valve springs with the head installed.  Makes life with the SOHC a lot easier...

Once you get the chain on and tensioned, with the pins in the gears at the zero position, you should be at whatever intake centerline the cams are ground for.  You can be off a few degrees, but you should be pretty close to that number.  If your LSA is 108, and the cams were ground "straight up" (probably), then you will be at 108 for the intake centerline at that point.  From that point you would ADVANCE the cams to get to 105 and 102.  TDC gives you a reference point; you will want to check the cams based on this reference point.  If you don't have the TDC reference point, you can't know where your cams are degreed.

I think to really get all this you just have to get started on doing it.  Wouldn't be a bad idea to consider the first assembly as a trial assembly; don't use any sealer, just bolt everything together, slowly, and start checking stuff until you get the picture of what you are doing. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 29, 2014, 03:51:47 PM
OK so assuming I time the cams with the heads on (which seems the most convenient) , I would first find TDC on the crank.  Once I have TDC , I then install the large chain to that the colored links match up with the "dots" on the Cam gears.  This then ensures that if the crank moves off TDC, the cams move in sync.  Then, I advance the cams (now that TDC is locked in with the chains) to get the desired cam degree(s)?

And at an LSA of 108, an advance of 3 degrees (moving the pin to the right) will get me to 105 on the left head and moving the Pin 2 holes (and I see from the pictures that only 1 hole really lines up, so when you move the pin, you have to turn the gear counter clockwise in order to get the holes to line up to slide the pin in) to the right will get me to 102 on the right head. Sound like I have the basics?

As a side note, I understand that once I have TDC locked into the cams with the large chain, I have to double check the LSA to make sure its really what the cam card reads. ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 31, 2014, 07:45:57 AM
OK, so Yesterday my cam retainer bolts with the shortened 12 point heads came from Precision oil pumps.  I put a little locktite on each bolt and put on a grade 8 zinc plated washer.  On the back of each washer (just to mimic the thickness of the cam retainer plate that is not used on the Cammer), I coated lightly with the TA-31 silicone sealer.  These bolts were torqued to 21 ft lbs and any residual sealer that came out from around the washer (minimal) was wiped off.  Not a big step, but these 2 bolts sealed up the oiling system.  I have a 5/8 jig borer on its way to bore out the for the 1/2" pieces of  5/8 diameter steel rod that are to be welded on to the back of the small stub cam gear in order to pin it to the larger gear.   Have the welder, bolts, Drill bits, taps, Have an X-Y vice set up under my drill press to act as a mini mill, and just waiting on the delivery of the Jig borer.  Hopefully it will arrive before this weekend and I can get this all wrapped up by Sunday.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 31, 2014, 09:28:51 PM
Ok so the 5/8" jig borer came today. Got the small stub cam gear set up between 2 rubber blocks in the X Y slide vice and aligned the reamer.  Was able after about 20 minutes per side to make the half moon cut outs.  I was going slow and lubricating with cutting oil as I went.  Turned out perfect!
 Saturday I am going to get the 5/8 bar stock from home depot and cut 2  seperate 1/2" pieces and mig weld them to the gear. I can then use the jig reamer and X Y slide vice to mill them flush with the gear. 3 drill bits later ( one 9/16" counter sink for bolt head, 3/8" for the bolt shaft and 17/64" pilot hole for tapping the large gear ) and i am going to use red locktite on bolt threads before installation.

This is extremely frustrating, but just when I think I have the timing understood, I loose it.  I have read up on it online, I read the instructions on the degree wheel kit I got, I have watched youtube videos....  Start to under stand and then it's gone!  LOL  I think its because normally the timing instructions are for a normal engine with the center Cam.  So, I will just jot down a few things, and anyone can feel free to put in 2 cents  :0)

1.)  I should find TDC with the heads on, cams installed, chain guides installed, chains installed and the front cover temporarily installed (make sure the stub cam bearing is pressed onto the Front cover).  This way, I do not have to remove and then replace the degree wheel after the front cover is installed.

2.)  With the heads on, with cams and cam gears with long chain temporarily installed  (and using a piston stop), I turn the crank slowly until the piston stop hits the piston.  I then mark that number on the wheel.  Then, turning the crank in the opposite direction slowly until the piston hits the stop.  I mark that number down.  Then, I add these 2 numbers together and divide by 2.  I then move the pointer to reflect this new number.  Turning the wheel again clockwise until it hits the piston stop and then the other way until it hits the piston stop.  It should stop at exactly the same number (the number you came up with by adding and dividing).  If not, add these 2 new numbers together and divide by 2 and repeat until the number is exactly the same when you turn the crank clockwise and counter clockwise.  Once the Numbers in both directions are exactly the same, the TDC "0" mark on the degree wheel now marks true TDC and the pointer should not be moved until after the timing of the cams. 

3.) with timing the cams, This is where I start to get a little fuzzy.  At this point, I know exactly where TDC is and the degree wheel is still installed with the pointer.  I understand that with the dots on the cam itself and the cam gear aligned, we are at the LSA of 108 degrees on both sides. I start by installing the magnetic base dial indicator over Cylinder 1/ Intake valve .  Now if the cam car is correct (and I can check this now that I know where TDC is), the valve will start to open when I turn the crank to 21 degrees before TDC.  If this is correct, then I know the cam card is correct.  However, I still need to advance the timing to the suggested points as discussed earlier in this post.  This is where I can pull out the dowel pin and turn the gear with respect to the cam to get the next hole to align.  This advances the timing 3 degrees (to 105 degrees). Now at this point, what should I recheck for with the dial indicator?  I would assume that now the intake valve will start to open at a different value correct?

3.) once this has been completed, I repeat the same process for the other head. Then torque the cams down to ensure the timing stays fixed.  When that is complete, I need to release some of the tension on the chain tensioner so that when I remove the cover plate, I don't bend the stub cam.  This will now allow me to start sealing the gaskets for final cover plate installation.
Thanks!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on August 01, 2014, 10:25:57 AM
You have #1 and #2 right.  But on degreeing the cams, I would use the intake centerline method, rather than relying on determining the timing by noting when the valve starts to open.  Comp Cams has directions on that on their web site for reference, and it will be the same idea for the SOHC, but I will try to summarize it here:

- Start with the right cam, cylinder #1.  Make sure that the only rocker arm you have that is active is intake rocker on #1, and you have the adjuster backed all the way off.  When you turn the engine go slowly and carefully.  The idea here is to avoid bending a valve against a piston by forcing the engine to turn over, in case the cams are not degreed where you think they are.  Make sure you have the chain pretty tight; a loose chain will affect your readings.

- Put your dial indicator on the #1 intake valve spring retainer, next to the rocker arm.  Now, turn the engine over in the normal rotation direction (clockwise when looking from the front) and watch the dial indicator.  As the valve starts to open it will turn in one direction, peak, and then start turning in the opposite direction as the valve begins to close.  What you need to do here is to adjust the dial indicator's dial so that at peak valve lift, it reads zero, so turn the dial indicator bezel to zero when you get to peak lift.  If you've gone past peak lift, just turn the engine backwards a little, then approach the peak valve lift again.

-  Now that you have the engine at peak valve lift and the dial indicator reads zero, turn the engine backwards so that you are about 0.150" below peak valve lift.  Now, start turning the engine in the normal direction again, slowly, watching the dial indicator.  When you are 0.50" before peak valve lift, stop and note the reading on the degree wheel.  Let's say it is 282 degrees BTDC.

- Now continue rotating the engine in the normal direction.  When the dial indicator shows you have passed peak lift and are down .050" below peak lift, stop and read the degree wheel again.  Let's say this time it reads 222 degrees BTDC.

- Now comes the math.  Split the difference between these two degree readings and you have 252 degrees.  This is the intake centerline BTDC.  What you want, though, is what is specified by the cam manufacturer, which is intake centerline AFTER top dead center.  So, subtract your intake centerline BTDC from 360.  360-252=108.  So, your intake centerline is 108 degrees.  (Depending on your degree wheel, you may be reading the timing marks in degrees ATDC from the start.  In that case splitting the difference between the two readings will give you the intake centerline reading directly, and you don't have to subtract your reading from 360).

- Finally, note that this is crank degrees, not cam degrees.  Each pin position in the cam gear will move the cams 3 crank degrees.  So, if you are off, then you can move the pin location on the right cam/gear to advance or retard the cam.  If you are WAY off, then you probably have done something wrong assembling the gear to the cam, or installing the chain.

-  Once you get the right cam degreed, move over to the left cam and do the same thing with the #6 intake valve.

Plan on spending some time on this operation, because it definitely takes some thinking on the SOHC, and it is easy to screw it up.  Just go slowly, double check things as you go, and you'll get it - Jay
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 01, 2014, 10:54:16 AM
Hey Jay.  Awesome, thank you.  I guess really the only question I have left is this: 

1.)Once I have gotten the above completed, I will be at cam card specs on both heads.  At what point do I advance the timing to get the 105 and 102 that we spoke about earlier? ( I think it had something to do with accounting for Chain stretch?)

2.) Did you mean 0.050 before peak lift above?  so its 0.050 before lift and 0.050 after lift.

3.) the left cam is best timed with #6 cylinder?  Just out of curiosity, does the # 6 cylinder piston mirror the movement of the #1 Cylinder piston?

Thanks again.  I think I am really starting to understand.  Going slow is perfect at this point.  I figure the slower I go, I will have time in between each task to make sure I did it correctly.  FUN ON A BUN!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on August 01, 2014, 01:06:19 PM
As soon as you get a measurement on the cam you can adjust for the desired intake centerline.  Most cams aren't ground perfectly, and you may not get 108 for the intake centerline (ICL) on the first try.  Just find out where you are, and then make adjustments from there, and re-check for the ICL.  Always re-check before you finalize the cam timing.

I'm not sure what was confusing on what I wrote, but to find the ICL you are correct that you should read the degree wheel at .050" lift before peak and .050" lift after peak.

The #6 cylinder is the fifth cylinder in the firing order.  So it is exactly 360 degrees different from #1, and you can use the same procedure, and get similar degree wheel readings.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 01, 2014, 01:25:12 PM
Thanks Jay.  I got it now. 8)  I think what was throwing me was that these parts are not always as "Specified". (as you have said before).  There is a chance that the cams may come in at something other than 108.  One may come in at 106 and the other 107 and then you would have to adjust the cam timing accordingly to get to the suggested 105 and 102.

Would be great if the cam card was way off and they came in exactly at 105 and 102 "straight up"  LOL

Thanks again!!!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 02, 2014, 06:16:13 PM
HAHAHA  OK.  2 days in, I got the small stub cam gear all set up with the 1/2" steel bar welded on, Milled flat, drilled and counter bored for the head of the bolt.  Got both Gears pressed onto the stub cam and drilled out the larger gear for the threads on the bolts.  I slathered the both threads with red Loctite, and inserted.  I got each bolt head about half way into the gear (meaning that I counter bored about half the height of the bolt head.  Pictures below.  From the look of it, the bolts are recessed far enough that they wont touch the bearing that goes in the front cover (end of the stub cam goes through).  Want to throw these pictures up on here before I put the crank gear and chain on and install on the front of the block....   8)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 02, 2014, 06:17:11 PM
another picture
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on August 03, 2014, 01:40:46 PM
Looks good.  Before you install the stub cam, put the bearing in the front cover and then fit the stub cam in from behind, to make sure that the bolts don't hit the cover.  There's isn't a whole lot of clearance there.  If the stub cam bottoms against the bearing, and you can see the snap ring groove from the front of the cover, you should be good to go.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 03, 2014, 08:04:47 PM
Hey Jay.  Thanks.  After you said that, I went back in to the garage and pulled the stub cam assembly out so the 2nd journal on the stub cam was resting on the # 1 cam bearing (So that it was sticking way out the front so that I could test fit the face plate.  I pressed the bearing into the face plate, and put it all the way onto the stub cam where I could see the snap ring groove out the front.  I spun the face plate all the way around a few times, and could hear a slight scraping.  Pulled off the face plate and saw that it was slightly touching one of the bolts.  I tightened that bolt a little and put the face plate back on.  Spun it around about 3 revolutions and no touch!  Nice!!

Once I had that all buttoned up, I pulled the heads out of storage.  I wiped the combustion chamber down (as they were a little oily from the motor oil I rubbed them down with before I sealed them for storage 3 years ago.  got the head studs and head dowels on and placed the head gaskets on.  Both heads have head studs and they were torqued in 3 increments (70-90-110) in the order specified in the 427 Cammer maintenance shop manual  (from the center out).  Once the heads were on and torqued down, I pulled the gaskets out of their box.

With this, I wanted to be sure of a solid seal, so I laid the small gaskets out that go on each head, the 2 gaskets that go where the water pump goes, and the gasket that goes around the timing chain.  After matching them up to their place for installlation (which side needs sealant), I put a bead all the way around the gaskets and used my finger to basically coat the entire gasket with a layer.  I figured this would be safer than putting a small bead all the way around.  I stuck them to the front of the block and heads, and then coated the fronts of the gaskets in the same manner.  once this was done, I sandwiched them with the backing plate.  Much like Jay said during his built, getting the bolts ready so you have all the right bolts ready to hold the backing plate tight against the gaskets was key.  once I had them all tightened up, I took my finger and cleaned all the areas where the sealant squished out.  Before I finished for the night, I remembered that the bolt next to the bottom bolt on the passenger side water pump needed to be coated with sealant and sealant under the washer and alll around it (because it goes into the water jacket).  I am going to be setting the timing and then taking the cover plate back off, so I will not be installing the second set of gaskets until after the timing is set.  See below pictures!  FINALLY starting to look like a Cammer engine@!  Not sure if you can see it on these pictures, but when I had the heads done up at Keith Craft, he did a slight port job for me.  Smoothed out the intake ports "casting texture" for better air flow. 

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/photo1_zpsea56e56c.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/photo1_zpsea56e56c.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 03, 2014, 08:06:26 PM
another picture:
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/photo2_zpsc260d080.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/photo2_zpsc260d080.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 03, 2014, 08:07:14 PM
Another picture:
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/photo3_zps9a8a8d44.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/photo3_zps9a8a8d44.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 04, 2014, 12:41:11 PM
Some more: (just learned how to use Photobucket)
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/photo1_zpsc4ad8dbc.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/photo1_zpsc4ad8dbc.jpg.html)
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/photo2_zps61dd2c66.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/photo2_zps61dd2c66.jpg.html)
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/photo3_zps5aff1f5a.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/photo3_zps5aff1f5a.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 05, 2014, 07:51:04 AM
OK Last night, nothing big, but got the bearing pressed onto the Fuel pump gear and then the bearing stand.  Then got the tensioner, bearing and pin all pressed into place.  I loosened the bolts only where these items will be located and went to install, but realized that the bolts I have are not long enough!!!  They are both 1/2-13 X 3", but it looks like I will need a 4" bolt (or 3.5" at the least).  I searched home depot, lowes and ACE, and no one has them, so I ordered the 4" bolts from ebay and as soon as they get here I can bolt them down.

On a side note, the backing plate has been sitting now (compressed ) for 2 days and seems solid as a rock!  I do not believe there will be any leaks nor will it ever come loose!  As soon as I get the right length bolts, I will be installing the cams, Cam gears and large chain!  This is fun.  And like everyone has been saying from the beginning, going slow is the best way to do this engine.  I forgot to mention it earlier, but I did remember to put a small piece of Gasket material on the 2 areas indicated on Jays build.  They don't seal anything, but the gaskets will ensure the backing plate stays flat against the block.  You can actually see one of these places on the above picture on the bottom right corner.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on August 05, 2014, 09:25:03 AM
I was looking at your photos and it looks to me like you gave the front cam cap on the heads on backwards.  The wider flange should face to the back of the engine, not the front.  Have you installed a cam yet to check that it spins properly in the head? I doubt it would turn with the front cap installed that way...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 05, 2014, 09:28:45 AM
HAHAHA  Its funny you caught that!  When I was leaving Keith Crafts shop years ago, I asked him about that as it looked backwards.  He said told me that it was the correct way, but it looked weird to me.  Last night it bothered me so much I ran in there and turned it around.  The pictures above are from the day before  LOL  Good catch as usual!  8)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 05, 2014, 08:36:16 PM
Alright.  On my way home, I stopped at Home depot just to double check on those bolts.  Low and behold, they had them.  So what I figured out is that the fuel pump gear takes the 3" bolt (I was too nervous to torque the bolt, so I just used the regular wrench to tighten it to a point where I felt comfortable (with loctite) as I was scared to strip the threads.

The tensioner was a 1/2"-13 X 3-1/2" long bolt.  Again tightened until I was comfortable as to not strip the threads.

I pulled all the caps on the heads and layed them out in order as to not get them confused.  Cleaned all of the journals in the heads, cleaned off the cam bearing shells, and wiped down the cam shafts (the cams shafts were the first part I purchased way back in the day!).  I placed assembly lube on each bearing half, and only placed the first cap on (with the upper bearing shell) and torqued to 35 Ft Lbs.  Same with the other side.  Of interest was the fact that on the driver side head, the 2nd bearing journal is not drilled with an oil passage, and does not have a related journal on the cam.... seems to be just for looks?  Had me stumped for a min until I  realized it was not drilled for oil.

Also, realized last night that the bearings I received with the gears from Precision Oil Pumps are all sealed bearings.  I think this means I don't need the oil squirters, because I am not sure now much good it would do me squirting oil on a sealed bearing.?

Anyway, tired and dirty.... see photos below.  Next step is to find TDC, but awaiting on an order from amazon for those tools....

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/photo1_zps45be9ae2.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/photo1_zps45be9ae2.jpg.html)
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/photo2_zps30859917.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/photo2_zps30859917.jpg.html)
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/photo3_zpsf2fda5ee.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/photo3_zpsf2fda5ee.jpg.html)
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/photo4_zps7d225b73.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/photo4_zps7d225b73.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 06, 2014, 09:10:09 AM
This is the hole that cannot be reached once the front cover is on.  It also goes through the water jacket, so the threads got TA-31 sealer, under the washer, and then all around it once it was tightened down:

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/photo5_zps9220e292.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/photo5_zps9220e292.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on August 06, 2014, 11:24:26 AM
Still think you have big brass ones for doing a cammer.
Really great following along and learning.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 06, 2014, 11:56:36 AM
Thank you.  Aside from the fear of screwing up, its actually really fun.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: KMcCullah on August 06, 2014, 12:05:17 PM
Alright.  On my way home, I stopped at Home depot just to double check on those bolts.  Low and behold, they had them.  So what I figured out is that the fuel pump gear takes the 3" bolt (I was too nervous to torque the bolt, so I just used the regular wrench to tighten it to a point where I felt comfortable (with loctite) as I was scared to strip the threads.

The tensioner was a 1/2"-13 X 3-1/2" long bolt.  Again tightened until I was comfortable as to not strip the threads.

So these tapped holes that your worried about stripping. Do they not have Heli-coils or Keenserts installed in them?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: TimeWarpF100 on August 06, 2014, 12:07:55 PM
a project I could only dream of . . . Watching closely
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 06, 2014, 12:08:18 PM
I don't think so.  they are just tapped holes on the aluminum block.  If it was an Iron block, I would put the "monkey Paw" on them and torque them down, but with the aluminum, I am worried I will strip them.  Most of the rest of the block (heads, main caps, etc) uses studs.  I like these a lot better because you cant strip the threads  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: KMcCullah on August 06, 2014, 12:25:09 PM
Not to complicate an already complicated project here. In my opinion any large tapped hole in aluminum should have some type of threaded insert for additional strength. Especially anything associated with an engine and ESPECIALLY a cammer.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 06, 2014, 12:43:16 PM
I had a similar thought, so for final assembly, I will be using Red Loctite for permanent installation.  It works as almost like an epoxy.  This way no danger of drilling out the holes with all of the security of epoxy  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 06, 2014, 03:58:11 PM
OK another question.... since the tensioner arm has to come off in order to install the chain guides, wouldn't I need to install the chain guides before I time the cams?  Otherwise if I remove the tensioner arm after I time everything, there is a chance the chain could slip and throw the timing off.  Would it be smart to install those before I time the Cams?

This way when I take the front cover off for the last time, it will be just to install the gaskets and sealer.  Not sure
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 06, 2014, 09:36:10 PM
And yes I realize my chain is not installed on the correct colored links. Lol. Will have it on right before timing. :-)  Should be the blue link on the Passenger side Cam sprocket, white link on the drivers side cam sprocket, and the Red link on the Stub gear....

Also today, I took the opportunity to purchase a Billet steel replacement gear for the MSD distributor (I have the brass replacement, but will keep that as a back up).  Also, another little part I never even thought about was the Timing cover seal for the crank snout.

Questions:

1.)  Since the bearings I have for the Tensioner, Idler, and stub cam nose are all sealed bearings, I don't need the "squirters"?  Of should I go find the same size bearings for each that are not sealed and install the squirters?  I am not sure which option is better.

2.) It was stated When timing the cams, the 2 rockers installed over the "test Springs" need to be backed all the way off.  Does this mean extended as far as they will go?  I would think that when timing, you would want to push the valve as far as the rocker will allow to test for worse case PV clearance.  That way when you lash the rocker at final assembly, you will be adding PV clearance and wont have to worry?

3.) Just out of curiosity, with the pistons installed, chain drive installed, and the 2 tester springs installed, how difficult should it be to turn the engine over.  I have not yet put the degree wheel on, but I was curious what a normal amount of resistance is at this point working against all of the above mentioned parts. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 08, 2014, 08:28:17 AM
Still waiting on the tools to remove the valve springs and install checker springs (should arrive today), so last night I did some tinkering.  Removed the tensioner and replaced the washers on the with Grade 8 "Heavy Duty" washers.  these are about 3 times as thick as a normal grade 8 zinc washer.  I will also be using these heavy duty washers on the cam sprockets for final assembly.  Moved the chain to its correct orientation.  This would be the White link on the Drivers side cam sprocket, Red link on the Stub cam gear, and the Blue link on the Passenger side cam sprocket.  Just to save a little time down the road, I decided it would be a good idea to install the chain guides at this point.  My thinking is that when I am done timing the engine, I only have to remove the timing cover in order to apply the gaskets/seals.  Smaller chain guide that mounts right above the stub cam and behind the tensioner has no "slot", so it is not really adjustable.  The top timing chain guide is slotted, but unfortunately did not match up perfectly.  I had to elongate the bolt hole a little larger so that it would align with the bolt hole in the block.  While I was at it, I remember reading in Jay's post that the rivets on the top of the chain guide are a little tall and cause interference with the timing cover.  I ground each one down on the bench top grinder (just because I wasn't in the mood to test out if that was true!).  I pushed the top chain guide Up to its tallest possible location and tightened the bolts.  I know it is supposed to be a "whisper" off of the chain, but once the chain is tensioned to its final resting place, I can readjust.  Surprisingly, the timing cover slid right on with no hiccups!  I tightened the tensioner adjuster bolt so that it was taught (about as taught as the small timing gear chain) and am now just waiting on the tools....... before leaving the garage last night, I was super curious about how difficult it would be to turn and engine of this bore diameter with a huge chain drive like this....  Surprisingly, it wasn't that tough.  It is by no means easy to turn the crank at this point (not like a one finger job), but it definitely turns.  Not much to photograph with the timing cover on, so More photos to come this weekend.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: KMcCullah on August 08, 2014, 09:35:12 PM
You don't need to buy open bearings for your sprockets. Take your pocket knife and pop the neoprene seals out of your existing bearings. Just pry next to the inner race and they pop out easy. Rinse the grease out with solvent.  ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 10, 2014, 07:58:40 PM
OK all, long weekend working on learning and setting the timing.  With the front cover temporarily installed, the chain was tightened and the cams were "straight up".  The cam card says both the Cams have a center line of 108 degrees.  The passenger cam came in at 109 degrees straight up.  With a cam pin moved to the right, it was advanced and came in at 101.5 degrees.  This was the closest I could get the timing to the 102 degrees Jay Suggested earlier in the post.

The drivers side cam was a bit different!  In the straight up position, the cam came in at 102 degrees.  This seems a bit far from 108!!!  To be sure, it rechecked it 3 times in the straight up position.  This one needed to be retarded in order to get to 105.  One  dowel hole to the left got me to 106....  Not quite the 3 degrees, but close enough.

So the timing is set......  This was a quick post, but it literally took me 2.5 days 

Next step will be to to install the cam retainer plates and torque them down, remove the timing cover after the chain tension has been loosened, and seal up the timing cover with the last set of gaskets.  Also need to swap the checker springs back out to the real springs.
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/photo1_zps3782f08d.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/photo1_zps3782f08d.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 12, 2014, 09:09:28 AM
So something I was trying to wrap my head around last night......  In order to find TDC while doing the timing, I bolted the degree wheel on to the Harmonic Balancer and pressed it onto the crank snout.  Now, by the time I found TDC, the degree wheel had the TDC mark in one location and If I looked behind it onto the marked harmonic balancer, TDC was in a totally different location.

I discussed this with my father last night and he tried explaining, but I just couldn't understand.  When the degree wheel is rotated around to TDC, shouldn't the harmonic balancers markings for TDC be in the exact same place?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on August 12, 2014, 09:48:51 AM
Not sure I understand the question, but if the pointer for the degree wheel is in the exact same place as the pointer for the harmonic balancer, then yes, they should read the same.  If not, then they won't read the same.  Do you have a pointer installed for the harmonic balancer, or just a temporary pointer for the degree wheel?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 12, 2014, 10:03:13 AM
OK the harmonic balancer is marked.  it has degrees before TDC and then it has a TDC mark and then degrees after.

Now the Degree wheel which was bolted to the front of the harmonic balancer is also marked with TDC.  After I found TDC on the Degree wheel, I realized that the TDC mark on the degree wheel does not match up to the TDC mark on the Harmonic balancer.  Do they need to be?  I cant rotate the harmonic balancer so that the TDC mark on it lines up with the actual TDC on the degree wheel because it has the keyway

I have a pointer for the harmonic balancer, but its not installed yet.  I only have the temporary pointer for the degree wheel installed currently.  So, if I install the real pointer, and rotate the crank around so that the real pointer is at TDC on the harmonic Balancer, then the temporary pointer should also be aligned with the Degree wheel TDC at that exact point?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on August 12, 2014, 10:19:54 AM
Some balancers are off by a bit "ATI" and you have to adjust the pointer to match the TDC of the balancer.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 12, 2014, 10:34:20 AM
I have a pioneer balancer.  I think I understand now.  I will try that when I get home.  If its off, I think jegs sells a sliding/adjustable pointer so it can be fine tuned a bit in either direction.

Also, when I got home last night, I decided to try my luck tightening a few bolts in which I was pretty sure the threads in the block were not quite right.  The bottom tensioner bolt (I think its a 1/2" diameter bolt... It snugged down, but I didn't torque it.  the top tensioner bolt stripped almost immediately.  I decided to follow jays advice and install a stud with epoxy.  I took a 7/16" bolt that was about 2" in length (so I would have a little extra to work with.)  I cut off the bolt top and used the 7/16 die to thread all the way up the shaft.  Once I had the stud, I mixed up a batch of epoxy and threaded it into the hole.  I let it dry all last night and tonight when I get home, I am going to put on a 7/16 heavy duty grade 8 washer and a nut and try torqueing it.

Feeling good so far about the build.  definitely been taking my time and I hope it will pay off when I go to have it dyno'd.  It is definitely a monster engine.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on August 12, 2014, 10:48:33 AM
OK the harmonic balancer is marked.  it has degrees before TDC and then it has a TDC mark and then degrees after.

Now the Degree wheel which was bolted to the front of the harmonic balancer is also marked with TDC.  After I found TDC on the Degree wheel, I realized that the TDC mark on the degree wheel does not match up to the TDC mark on the Harmonic balancer.  Do they need to be?  I cant rotate the harmonic balancer so that the TDC mark on it lines up with the actual TDC on the degree wheel because it has the keyway


They don't need to be lined up.  All you need is for the temporary pointer that points to the degree wheel to show TDC on the degree wheel at actual TDC, and all your cam timing will be correct.

Its too bad about that stripped bolt, and just for the record I would have rather you put a helicoil in there, rather than epoxied in a stud.  The epoxied stud will work, but now you are limited to how loose you can make the chain with the tensioner installed.  With the nut on the stud loose, you can only loosen the chain so far before you run out of travel on the slot in the tensioner.  Not a big deal though.

I wonder why that hole is stripped?  It should not have stripped that easily.  And did you check to see that the two 9/16 bolt holes had helicoils installed?  Did you try to torque those two large bolts?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 12, 2014, 11:43:55 AM
Hi Jay,

I didn't torque it, but I tightened the large tensioner bolt past the "scary" point where I thought it was stripping, and it got tighter.  Seems fine, but I will torque it for final assembly.  The top tensioner bolt (which is now a stud) didn't even get a chance to be tight before the threads gave out.  It was definitely odd.  Maybe just a bad tap job on a few of the holes?  In all honesty, I would rather epoxy studs in any place where the threads give out (assuming there are any others), rather than drill and re-tap for the helicoils.

My thinking is if the stud ever gives out, then I have a 2nd option which would be the Helicoil.  I definitely now have a fear torqueing any bolt on the front of this engine (just because of this one experience).

I see your point with the tensioner loosening issue, but I have the worst luck stripping threads in past experiences.  I think I'm jinxed for sure.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 12, 2014, 02:42:16 PM
I think I just realized why Jay....  when you wrote in the last post, you said that the large bolt holes are 9/16 bolts?  I am using 1/2 bolts.  The 1/2 bolts seemed to be the correct size....  are you sure about the 9/16?  I can always stop by Homedepot on the way home tonight.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on August 12, 2014, 03:31:49 PM
I'm going by memory, and I thought they were 9/16" bolts, but I could be wrong.  I will try to check tonight.

You didn't put a 3/8" bolt in the top hole by mistake, did you?  Pretty sure that one is a 7/16" bolt...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 12, 2014, 03:36:34 PM
No definitely used a 7/16th for the top hole.  The top hole was the one that stripped almost immediately without even becoming really that snug. 

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on August 12, 2014, 08:19:01 PM
I just checked and the two larger bolts are definitely 9/16", so that's why your 1/2" bolt doesn't feel right in there.  I took a half inch bolt and it screwed in, but was very loose.  Get some 9/16 bolts and you should be all set.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 13, 2014, 08:17:43 AM
Thanks for checking Jay.  I ordered the 9/16" bolts last night. On a separate note, last night there wasn't much progress (as I need the correct bolts before I can seal up the timing cover.  I took the opportunity to bolt on the cam retainers.  I didn't have small enough bolts, so I cut down bolts with the correct threads.  (If you look at the pictures posted earlier, the bolts I was using while timing were too long so I put 4 thick washers on to make up the difference.  The 4 cam bolt holes go all the way through the cam, so if the bolt is a little too long, you would be able to turn the camshaft.  I cut down 4 bolts per cam, put a little red Loctite on each and "snugged" them up.  The cam center bolt got a little red Loctite as well and also a thin grade 8 washer.

Also temporarily installed the timing pointer to the front of the timing cover.  When I turned the crank over with the degree wheel still attached, the Pointer lined up with TDC on the balancer when the wire pointer lined up with the TDC on the degree wheel.  I, for the life of me, don't understand why I couldn't get my head wrapped around that.  LOL  But luckily enough they line up almost exactly.
While awaiting the correct 9/16 bolts, I think tonight I will take off the checker springs and install the real springs back as well as put on all the remaining rockers (and set the valve lash specified).

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 14, 2014, 08:44:49 PM
Ok guys. Tonight in the garage of dreams, I started on the spring replacement on cylinders #1 and #6 as well as installing the rockers.  Started by removing the checker springs on the passenger side head. Easy enough as it was done by hand once the rocker installed for timing was slide aside. Intake valve spring went on fairly easy with the universal valve spring tool. Exhaust valve .... Different story. I actually had to use the bench top grinder to remove some of the tool so I could get the retainers on. Pain in the ass.... But on a lucky note, I saw the spark plug hole beforehand and thought to myself that my luck would be a retainer would fall right down into the combustion chamber. I plugged it with a clean piece of butcher paper before getting started and guess where the first retainer the popped off landed???  LOL. Thank god I did that!

Removed the caps and slid on a rocker for each spring. Rockers were slid off the lobes so I could bolt caps back on. Only one the couldn't was the #4 cylinder as its trapped between towers. Pulled the adjusted all the way back and turned the engine over so those lobes were on the heel and slid over. Tightened caps down to 35 ft lbs on center 2 nuts and outer 2 ( smaller) nuts got 20 ft lbs. will do driver side tomorrow and hopefully correct 9/16" bolts for tensioner will be in tomorrow as well
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 15, 2014, 10:28:22 PM
Doesn't look like the bolts will arrive until monday. Was able to get the drivers side checker springs swapped out and the remaining rockers on ( slid to the side until I am ready to set the lash. More to come as it happens.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 18, 2014, 08:25:26 AM
While I am still awaiting bolts, I took this opportunity to prep.  I took a large piece of cardboard and drew out a "rendering" of the front of the cammer engine on it.  I have to admit the artistic skills are still lacking.  I then punched small holes in each area on the cardboard that relates to a bolt hole for the installation of the front cover.  In realizing that the 427 SOHC service Manual has a parts list in the back, I went though it tried out the bolts for the correct holes.  Since I had a history of using "almost" the right size bolts, I thought it best that I ensure I have the exact bolt thread/length for each hole before I button up the timing cover for good.  I actually had every bolt combination except for the 4 bolts that hold the water pump to the cover/block (Didn't have the right length) and the one large bolt that relates to where the Alternator will mount to the cover/block (Manual says a length of 6.80, but they don't sell bolts in that length so I got a 7" bolt)....  I made sure each bolt fit the bolt hole before pushing it into the cardboard and I am not 100% positive I have all the right bolts for the final install.  I also plugged the front and back oil galleys on the heads with 1/4 pipe plugs (with tefalon sealer).  I am hoping by the first weekend in September to have it at the Dyno.  I will post pictures of the completed engine as soon as the bolts show up!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 18, 2014, 08:21:59 PM
OK so last night I got home and the tensioner bolts I was waiting on were sitting on the front porch.  After installing the bolts (Correct bolts) now, It was on to sealing up the timing cover for the last time.  I took a clean paper towel land wiped down the backing plate a few times.  It was a little oily from the WD40 and assembly lube.  I wanted to make sure it was clean and dry for the last set of gaskets.
I wanted to make sure I got a secure seal, so I took the timing cover and laid it on the bench.  I installed the seal (Metal and rubber) that goes in where the crank snout sticks out.  It got a healthy rub down with oil.  After that, I laid out all of the associated gaskets that go on.  There were the 2 that go where the water pump is, there was 1 gasket that goes across the top of the timing cover, and there was one gasket for each side of the timing cover that goes from bottom to top following the curves of the "Y" shaped timing cover.  Once I had them all laid out, I used the TA-31 sealant.  I put a bead all the way down each gasket, and then with my finger, I wiped it so that the entire surface of the gasket had been covered.  then, I placed them on the timing cover and ensured that they were all exactly where they needed to be (according to the bolt holes).  I then pressed each one down to ensure the sealer / gasket was secure.  After about 5 minutes, I did the same thing to the exposed surface of the gaskets.... and then slid on the timing cover!  With the rivets ground down (Like Jay explained in his 519" build) the timing cover slides right into place using the stub cam as the guide.  With all of the correct bolts I organized the night before (poked into a drawing of the front of the engine in cardboard), I was able to button up the front cover in no time at all.  Blue Loctite was used on each bolt.  The only bolts I still do not have are the ones for the water pump and the one long one for the Alternator.

Before I called it a night, I reinstalled the heavy duty snap ring onto the stub cam.  I actually fashioned a device from a dampener puller tool.  I put 3 bolts into the device backwards (much like little legs) and they fit around the area on the front cover....  then I threaded in a 3" bolt through the middle of the puller and into the stub cam.....  a few turns later and the snap ring groove was accessible.  Then I installed the dampener space which I ordered from Survival motorsports a few years ago, and lastly installed the dampener for the last time!




(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/D6D888A1-52B5-4CD2-A3F7-088DF8D6B435_zpso3caha7x.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/D6D888A1-52B5-4CD2-A3F7-088DF8D6B435_zpso3caha7x.jpg.html)
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/7936D929-31C9-4021-BEAF-640C2B72346E_zpsg40fadj9.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/7936D929-31C9-4021-BEAF-640C2B72346E_zpsg40fadj9.jpg.html)
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/A19F89C3-EBC7-4F12-8A76-A109C344F227_zps1izonane.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/A19F89C3-EBC7-4F12-8A76-A109C344F227_zps1izonane.jpg.html)
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/203F4B4E-BD23-4D51-8B1B-5D9950D09A7E_zpsmt0xjdbb.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/203F4B4E-BD23-4D51-8B1B-5D9950D09A7E_zpsmt0xjdbb.jpg.html)
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/B3721A1E-A6D6-4D7F-BF07-AAB6EBC83DF2_zpsdcjaahsp.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/B3721A1E-A6D6-4D7F-BF07-AAB6EBC83DF2_zpsdcjaahsp.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 19, 2014, 02:39:41 PM
Also as a side note.... When I installed the Brand new Dampener spacer I for from Survival Motorsports and then started to install the Harmonic Balancer....  I got the Balancer as far as I could get it (actually broke the Balancer install tool), but the snout of the crankshaft was not even with the end of the Balancer....  the balancer is not flush with the crank snout....  I am not sure if that is normal.  Any Ideas?  I am guessing because I have the oil slinger and then the dampener spacer.....  Its not a large difference....  just not completely flush like I was expecting.

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: KMcCullah on August 19, 2014, 05:58:46 PM
That's a good sign. Below flush by .030 or .040 is what you want. Now if your crank was showing past the damper that would be bad.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: lovehamr on August 20, 2014, 01:01:26 PM
Jason, loving this thread man!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 20, 2014, 01:43:37 PM
Have hit a snag.  While lashing the rockers last night, I believe I may have inadvertently bent 3 valves.  Unsure at this point as they also may be stuck in the valve guides from being stored for 3 years.  Unfortunately I am going to have to pull the head off and see what's what.  After I pull the head (maybe tonight) I will take pictures of what I see
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on August 20, 2014, 01:49:14 PM
Just reading that I grunted. :P
Hope for the best.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 20, 2014, 01:58:40 PM
Tell Me about it.  :o  So this is the plan.  I actually purchased (back in the day) a whole extra set of valves....  I just had a feeling I would need them.  LOL  Lucky/unlucky me. 
The bigger question is why did they bend to begin with.  So its back to the drawing board as far as checking "Stuff"

The plan is to pull the head and swap out the bent (or hopefully just stuck) valves.  From there, I am going to reinstall the checker spring on Valve 1 and check my timing measurements for the 4th time.  I want to be sure (again) that they are correct.  Also with the checker spring, I can re-check the piston to valve clearance by pushing down on the spring with my finger and using the dial indicator at tactical positions during rotation.

In order to preserve the timing the way its set now, I think I am going to pull off the timing cover so I cam tie wrap the chain to the sprockets and gears so they don't move once I pull the tensioner and passenger side head.  I ordered a new set of gaskets and will just start back over.  Its seriously a pain in the ass, but it has to be done and it cant hurt to quadruple check things ..... Its taken me this long, why not a little longer...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: KMcCullah on August 20, 2014, 02:01:58 PM
Have hit a snag.  While lashing the rockers last night, I believe I may have inadvertently bent 3 valves.  Unsure at this point as they also may be stuck in the valve guides from being stored for 3 years.  Unfortunately I am going to have to pull the head off and see what's what.  After I pull the head (maybe tonight) I will take pictures of what I see

Sigh.....what a drag! Sticky guides maybe? Hopefully no bent valves.  :-\
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 21, 2014, 06:19:55 PM
OK guys....  took the head off and surprise surprise.....  The intake valve nicked the lip of the cylinder!  Didnt touch the piston and wasnt stuck in the valve guide.....

So, with a little dremmel action and a diamond cone...  this problem will be overcome!  See photos below.  You can see a tiny witness mark on the lip.....  Just barely knicked it.

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/1C720A4D-378E-46FF-93B0-7B1F857EEF08_zpsm4aaexb7.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/1C720A4D-378E-46FF-93B0-7B1F857EEF08_zpsm4aaexb7.jpg.html)

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: lovehamr on August 22, 2014, 07:25:57 AM
Do the valves still move easily and seal?  Hope so!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: KMcCullah on August 22, 2014, 07:30:52 AM
Well that's better than dealing with piston to valve clearance issues. I'm surprised you didn't find this on #1 when you had your checker springs on. Make sure you scallop all 8 cylinders.

Edit: I had to go back and check your bore size. At only .017 over and with aftermarket heads I guess I can say I'm not surprised about your clearance issue. Most new cammers I've read about lately with your heads have much larger bores.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 22, 2014, 07:37:10 AM
That's the odd thing.  It doesn't interfere with Cylinder 1!    Only valve that didn't bend is cylinder #1 on the Passenger side.  None had a problem on the driver side.  But in speaking with Jay, I am going to pull the drivers side head and shave those too.  Better safe than sorry.  Sucks because I thought I was almost done!!  I already bought 8qts of Joe Gibbs break in oil and I was getting all excited.  No matter, at the very least, I know I didn't screw up the timing or the lashing  :0)  Small silver lining!

Keep you posted on the progress!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on August 22, 2014, 12:19:36 PM
There can be small variations in the heads and in the bore of the blocks, so that each individual valve may be positioned a little differently with respect to the bore.  I was surprised that you had this issue, and probably wouldn't have checked it myself, but my bores are usually bigger.  Jason, after you get done with the bore relieving put the head on without a gasket, and check for clearance.  If you have clearance with no head gasket, then you should have at least .020" clearance when the gasket is installed.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 22, 2014, 01:58:18 PM
Will Do.  I have the passenger side head off currently and need to replace the 3 bent valves.  I am also going to pull the drivers side head (since I ordered a whole new set of gaskets for the timing cover) and do all 8 together.  I honestly don't think there is that much interference, so I am not going to cut into it much.... but don't need this to happen on the Dyno, that's for sure.  Going to be a long (HOT ) weekend in that stuffy garage  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 24, 2014, 09:57:17 PM
Update. Tried replacing bent valves on passenger side head this weekend, and it would seem i "scuffed" the bronze valve guides. Had the bring the head to the machine shop so they could hone the guides on intakes 2,3 and 4

While this is being done, i took off the timing cover, tensioners, backing plate and dampener spacer. All have been cleaned of old gasket material and sealant. I then spent about 1 hour taping up any openings in the block with painters tape for the cylinder notching process

With the head gaskets on, i used a blue magic marker to mark the cylinder lip. This was done to make sure i didnt notch too far. Then using a rotary tool and a diamond grit cone bit, i notched the lip of the cylinder where VC was needed. No contact on drivers side previous, but this was done as insurance

After, cylinders were cleaned for any debris until the oiled rag stayed clean. Rest of blocked re cleaned just to be safe before and after tape was removed. Head gasket, head and cam were reinstalled. Next will be passenger side. What did surprise me is how little area there is to notch. But i guess the original interference wasnt than much. There is no scarrier feeling than not being 100% sure when maching your $5,000 block LOL. But i must say so far so good. Hard to see in photo, but here is the notch in 1 example:
(http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q791/jtbadamo/053965DA-C017-4AC5-9204-056549E9AADF_zpsf8iyjmad.jpg) (http://s1359.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo/media/053965DA-C017-4AC5-9204-056549E9AADF_zpsf8iyjmad.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jmlay on August 25, 2014, 06:47:00 AM
Before you cut did you stuff the cylinder to prevent debris from getting down in the between the piston, top ring & cylinder wall? That crevice would be impossible to clean without removing the piston from the block. Flipping it upside down while cutting might no be a bad idea either. There is allot of time, effort & $ in your build to rebuild because it was not internally clean before firing.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 25, 2014, 07:56:33 AM
Yes. Each cylinder was stuffed with rags. During the clean up, and just to be safe, i sprayed wd 40 around each piston (After I cleaned off everything) and quickly sucked it up with the shop vac. This was just in case anything at all got down there (which I doubt) but I wanted to take every precaution before I bolted the head back on. Each cylinder was blocked off with rags as i machined, and on the opposite side, I just taped all the way across each cylinder, open passage, water port, an any other opening dust could have gotten.

I am fairly certain they are actually cleaner now then when I first assembled.  Tonight I am going to machine the passenger side.  I am hoping to have the head back from the machine shop after the valve guide honing and possibly the new set of gaskets from precision today.

I am actually sort of happy I get to re-clean and reseal everything up.  Of course I wish the valves never bent, but if this has to be done, best to go back over everything to make sure its spotless and sealed up tight!  Re-cleaning each block surface, re-cleaning the head gasket, re-lubricating each cam bearing, all feels like added security with what I learned putting this together the first time.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 25, 2014, 01:57:15 PM
New interesting question.  The 2005 Saleen has a more modern Alternator that a Ford FE (As far as the wiring ports and Amps go)....  I cannot find an aftermarket Ford FE alternator that matches the amps and wiring ports off of a stock Saleen.  Am I able to take the Saleen alternator, remove the front cover and pulley and swap the faceplate and pulley from a ford FE alternator so that it will work in a Saleen?
Both the Saleen Alternator and the Stock Ford FE alternator seem to just have 4 long bolts that hold the faceplate to the body of the alternator.  My thinking was if I can swap faceplates, the FE faceplate and pulley will allow me to bolt it using the Ford FE alternator brackets, but the Body and internals from the saleen alternator will allow the wiring connections and such to still work with the Saleen ECU (wiring harness for the alternator).  I am not sure how all of this will figure into the stock ECU controlling almost all functions, but the FAST EFI ecu just controlling the fuel, spark, and O2 sensors....  like the car will have 2 ecu's?

Here is a link to a replacement 2005 Saleen Alternator : http://www.americanmuscle.com/130amp-alternator-0509gt.html
Thoughts?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jmlay on August 25, 2014, 02:37:47 PM
Obtain a G3 with the appropriate case & it should not be a big deal to adapt to an early engine, has been done for years.:

http://oldfuelinjection.packrad.net/page63.html

(http://oldfuelinjection.packrad.net/public/alternator/3Galternator01.jpg)



Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 25, 2014, 02:41:51 PM
I was, looking into this.  I found a 3G, but it looks like it would need a wiring adapter to work with the 6G saleen wiring harness.  Is this the adapter harness that's needed?  I could not tell if this allows a 3G to be installed where a 6G was.... or Vice versa.

http://www.yogisinc.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=14340/prd14340.htm
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jmlay on August 25, 2014, 09:56:21 PM
I do not have any experience with that adapter but it really should be a matter of looking at the wiring diagrams & connecting the 2 pigtails.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 26, 2014, 08:28:52 AM
Thank you
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 26, 2014, 09:39:13 AM
Picture of the what I machined off for the intake valve relief:
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 26, 2014, 02:44:29 PM
Well Machine shop called and my head is ready.  I had the valve guides on cylinders 2,3, and 4 honed after my valve bending debacle.  Here she sits ready for pick up tonight  !!  :
(http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q791/jtbadamo/10647208_10202339691764625_2424076427545686312_n_zpscf1ce4c3.jpg) (http://s1359.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo/media/10647208_10202339691764625_2424076427545686312_n_zpscf1ce4c3.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 27, 2014, 08:38:17 AM
OK Head is home and now just awaiting the new set of gaskets from Precision Oil Pumps and then I can do final assembly.

WHOLE new problem.  When I was taking to the gentleman at the shop, we were discussing the fact that this Cammer will be running off of the FAST EFI system.  We got into the topic of how the stock ECu in the Saleen would basically be worthless because the car will not know its "On" because of the FAST EFI....  Long story short, I will loose the function of everything the stock ECU controls!  ABS brakes, instruement panel, etc.  My question is, is it possible to have Ford program the stock ECU to work with the FAST EFI system?  If not, is it possible to at least wire the new engine to the existing instruement cluster?  The guy at the shop said he didn't think this is possible because the gauges on a 2005 mustang run off the computer (Crank trigger for the crank, etc)  Thoughts?  Ideally I would live to keep everytyhing working including the ABS brakes!  lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 28, 2014, 03:30:52 PM
Update:  Gaskets are in and I am ready for final assembly this weekend.

On another note, I have been calling all around this great country of ours.  The issue is that the 2005 Saleen has stock computers and the "Cammer" will have the FAST EFI ECU......  Getting them to play well together or at least split responsibilities has been interesting.  Was told that Stock ECU in the Saleen will not work at all once you disconnect the engine harness from the old 4.6 modular.  Also, FAST EFI I have can not piggy back off of the stock ECU to let it know there is an engine.  So then I called FAST and spoke to them.....  They just kept saying its a stand alone system, however they referred me over to a guy named Brian Macy in NV at Horsepowerconnection.  He has experience with Wiring up EFI's in these newer cars.  He said he has a special wiring harness that will work with the FAST XFI system, but it still wouldn't help me because it works to make FAST EFI work on a stock Mustang modular motor....  He did, however, explain that I shouldn't really have any issues (that he can foresee) except for the instrument cluster.  I guess there are separate modules that control the cars electronics (like abs brakes, power windows, airbags).  He thought the only Computer I would have an issue with is the one that monitors the engine, speed, tach, pressures, etc.  He suggested it would be easier to just get new gauges.

Then I was off to find someone who makes an "Autometer" type gauge cluster for a 2005 Mustang .......and no one does!  I did manage to find Florida50 (right here in my home town!).  They were a referral from my Machine shop guy.  They make Autometer guage clusters for Mustangs up to the year 2004  LOL  Oh yeah! Just my luck.  However, he did tell me that they are currently working on the 2005 and hope to have them out for sale by Year end (or a little before)....  He took my contact info and said it it all plays out right, I may be able to even get ahold of the prototype just to get things moving.  Anyway, I will worry about gauges when all is said and done.  At least I know the car will start (FAST EFI ECU) and that everything except the gauges will work (For now).  Perfect!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: BH107 on August 28, 2014, 03:50:14 PM
Did the machine shop check to make sure the spare valves were cut identical to the ones that bent? Both in seat angle and length?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 29, 2014, 11:15:09 AM
The Bent valves just scuffed up the inside of the valve guides.  I brought the head in so they could hone the existing valve guides and install the new valves.  Same valve guides I started with.  :0) (Thank god)

The new valves are the same as the ones I bent.  When I was getting the valve job done at Keith Craft, I purchased another 8 intake and 8 exhaust of the valves he installed incase just such a thing were to happen.  Valve job was done to these valves so I figured it would be best to have exact replacements.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 02, 2014, 12:58:58 PM
OK Little update.  I wanted to wait until my new tube of RTV comes in to do final assembly as I would hate to get half way and then run out of  sealant and have to start over again with ANOTHER set of gaskets.  It should be in todays mail. 

Had the opportunity with the long weekend to machine the passenger side head.  In addition to sealing off each cylinder with towels, I asked my wife to hold the shop vac while I was cutting.  Didn't turn out half bad!  After I finished the machining, I cleaned, and cleaned, and re-cleaned each cylinder wall and piston top.  once it was spotless, I took WD40 and sprayed down each cylinder making a "little Puddle" at the bottom then very quickly sucked it up with the shop vac.... Just as a secondary measure for cleaning.  I then cleaned the deck surface, cleaned both sides of the head gasket and cleaned the bottom of the cylinder head (Just to remove any excess oil residue.  Once the head was bolted down, it was on to installing both Cam shafts back into the heads as well as the rocker arms.  Before anything, I backed all 16 rockers back off.  Each was slid to the side and caps bolted down. 

So as of right now, I have everything where I need it in order to seal the backing plate and front cover with gaskets and sealant.  Its going to be a 2 day affair as I need to seal the backing plate first, and then once its dry and secure, I then install the timing cover with its set of gaskets and sealer.  Longest Build in history  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on September 02, 2014, 03:24:08 PM
Yes, longest build....LOL! But, with the steps and complexity of a Cammer, careful work and Jay's invaluable help it should be a runner. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: TimeWarpF100 on September 04, 2014, 05:43:16 PM
OK Little update.  I wanted to wait until my new tube of RTV comes in to do final assembly as I would hate to get half way and then run out of  sealant and have to start over again with ANOTHER set of gaskets.  It should be in todays mail. 

Had the opportunity with the long weekend to machine the passenger side head.  In addition to sealing off each cylinder with towels, I asked my wife to hold the shop vac while I was cutting.  Didn't turn out half bad!  After I finished the machining, I cleaned, and cleaned, and re-cleaned each cylinder wall and piston top.  once it was spotless, I took WD40 and sprayed down each cylinder making a "little Puddle" at the bottom then very quickly sucked it up with the shop vac.... Just as a secondary measure for cleaning.  I then cleaned the deck surface, cleaned both sides of the head gasket and cleaned the bottom of the cylinder head (Just to remove any excess oil residue.  Once the head was bolted down, it was on to installing both Cam shafts back into the heads as well as the rocker arms.  Before anything, I backed all 16 rockers back off.  Each was slid to the side and caps bolted down. 

So as of right now, I have everything where I need it in order to seal the backing plate and front cover with gaskets and sealant.  Its going to be a 2 day affair as I need to seal the backing plate first, and then once its dry and secure, I then install the timing cover with its set of gaskets and sealer.  Longest Build in history  LOL

Long build?

Haha
Try 5yrs and counting on a 482. Engine has still not been fired.

More pics of your project please..
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 05, 2014, 08:59:54 AM
 ;)
OK so last night I got back on it.  The new tube of TA-31 came in and I set to work on getting the backing plate sealed to the block with all of the associated gaskets.  I Spend about 20 to 30 minutes cleaning the surface of the front of the block.  I wanted to get any and all of the old gasket material off (with a straight edge) as well as get any oil residue off so it would seal up nice.  Also spent quite a bit of time wiping down the backing plate itself.  It was quite oily and I wanted to get it clean and dry.  I got the needed gaskets sealed to the block and then sealed those to the backing plate.  Having all of the correct bolts there inserted into my cardboard template was really convenient.  The only thing I had to do with each bolt was add 6 or 7 washers to hold the backing plate in place without the timing cover being on.  I finished up last night around 9pm, and will allow it to dry all day today.  Later tonight I will put on the large chain and ensure the colored links align correctly with the cams (which were already timed), install the chain guides,  seal up the gaskets to the timing cover, and install the snap ring.  If all goes well, It will be on to last the rockers this weekend.  I will post pictures this weekend.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 05, 2014, 02:00:27 PM
Here is something neat.  I actually tracked down the builder for the 2005 Mustang GT with the 427 SOHC.  He said that the only thing that he could not get to work when putting in the cammer engine was the stock Tach.  He just installed an aftermarket tach to solve the problem....  but it sounds like I can just use the factory wiring harness as a donor.  Only disconnect what I don't need.  More to come on that as I get closer....  but atleast now I can talk to someone about the electronics who has done it in this car before  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 07, 2014, 02:24:03 PM
Ok lets start with the bad news first. I tried to get the broken bolt out with the removal tool and couldnt get it  I broke 3 drill bits trying, and its not worth wrecking the block for me. Before the head snapped off, there was sealer on the threads and there is sealer now over the hole. Fingers crossed

On a better note, everything back together and torqued to spec, and the valves clear!!!  I havent lashed the rockers yet, but all seems well as far as clearance. I am back to where I left off before the bent valves incident. The timing cover is back on, but i snapped a few photos before and after the chain install
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/F6BE273B-326A-4573-BE93-3EE01E3FEDCA_zpsskrdc1t4.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/F6BE273B-326A-4573-BE93-3EE01E3FEDCA_zpsskrdc1t4.jpg.html)
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/06451015-7887-4C5C-AF29-9245A72DBF6A_zpsvxydquoh.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/06451015-7887-4C5C-AF29-9245A72DBF6A_zpsvxydquoh.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 08, 2014, 08:32:52 AM
Well,  yet another hiccup.  After I got everything buttoned up (as Pictured above), and the cylinder walls have all been machined so the intake valves no longer hit them, now I have PVC issues  LOL.  The first valve lashed (intake) was the #1 cylinder.   This time I now have piston contact when the rocker arm is lashed to 0.023.  If I back the rocker off some (which is outside the range of normal for the engine), then I don't get the contact.  However in taking with Jay, I believe I am just going to re-check the timing.  To me, it would seem that I am 1 dowel hole off from not having interference, however I will just retime it to be sure.

I am going to slide all of the rockers off except for Cylinder 1 and cylinder 6....  this time I am just going to leave the regular springs on there (as they are not that hard to rotate) to check (and with the rockers backed off, the piston doesn't touch the valve).  Luckily if I need to make any modification to the cam timing, it can be done without screwing up any of the assembly I have done so far.  Each time I get this close, I get stopped!  I cannot wait for the day where I can lash all 16 rockers and install the valve covers!  Then it will feel like progress.

As a positive, at least I was going super slow and did not bend anything.  As soon as I hit the hard stop.... I stopped for the night!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: fe66comet on September 08, 2014, 05:44:47 PM
I have seen a lot of 500 cube 385 engines in late model Stangs. They have huge compartments to clear the 4.6 which is a monster wide engine. Too bad you can't get a bigger bottom end for the 4.6 modular design, more like a big block displacement.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 09, 2014, 08:51:14 AM
So I went into the garage last night just to "See what I can see" without screwing anything up.  I turned the engine over until the intake valve hit and then turned the engine back a tiny bit....  then I started to back the Rocker adjuster nut off slowly...  each time slowly turning the engine to see if there is still PVC issues.  after about the 3rd adjustment, I was clear.  SO its definitely a timing issue.

I have tons of space on the exhaust valve.  I can actually see the exhaust valve closing when the intake is open as the piston comes up to the top of the cylinder.  I am sure I have quite a bit of leeway in adjusting before (or even if ) the exhaust valves ever have clearance issues.  I need to adjust the timing just a tad, but I also realize I need to recheck to see where it is before I can do so.

If I am not mistaken (and if I understand this correctly), I need to retard the passenger side cam to that the intake valve starts to open closer to TDC.  this way the piston is on its way back down the cylinder "sucking" in air/fuel as it does so.  I posed this question to Jay, but I also wanted to throw it out here since I know Jay has more on his mind at the moment:

So my cams are supposed to be 108 degrees centerline out of the box (Assuming I double checked).  Now, when reading Jays 519" build, he stated that in his experience, as the chain stretches, "the right cam retards about 2 degrees and the left cam actually advances 2 degrees"  as he was shooting for 110 degrees ATDC, he set the right cam to 108 degrees (so it would be at 110 degrees when the chain stretched) and the left cam at 112 degrees (so it would also be at 110 degrees when the chain stretched).

Now in my case, the Cams centerline is 108 degrees .... Shouldn't I be shooting for 106 degrees on the right cam (so I'm at 108 degrees when the chain stretches) and set the left cam at 110 degrees (so I am again at 108 when the chain stretches)?

I am probably missing some critical part so I wanted to throw this out for discussion since I need to re-verify my timing due to the PVC issues.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 10, 2014, 11:36:57 AM
OK all, time to share my newest issues/problem... when do they end?  Now that I have fixed the valve to cylinder side wall issue, I found that I had PVC issues.  In talking with Jay, it seemed best to start back from scratch on the timing.  Since the front cover does not need to come off again to set the timing, I decided there's no time like the present. 
Last night I got the rockers all out of my way and installed the check spring and rocker (backed all the way off) on Cylinder 1-Intake.  I pulled the cam retainer plates off as well as the bolts that hold them on and loosened the center cam bolt.  After pulling the dowel out and re-aligning the cam sprocket  to be "straight up", I went about checking to ensure that the factory centerline advertised as 108* was true.  With the dowel in the correct location, the chains verified that they are in the correct location and the gears all verified, I put the Piston stop down the spark plug hole on cylinder 1.  After a few minutes I had TDC.... and just to be 100% sure,  I went back and forth 2 more times to ensure I landed on the same number (Somewhere around 33 degrees) before and after TDC.  So from this point, I know everything is in order and TDC is now indicated by my temporary pointer. 

Before I went any further, I unscrewed the piston stop and stored it away.  Since its an aluminum block, I have a plate of steel I temporarily bolt to an intake bolt hole and set up my magnetic base with dial indicator.  I placed the pin of the dial indicator on the spring retainer next to the rocker arm, and push it down so that I don't run out of "reach" as the valve is pushed down.  Turning the crank in a clockwise rotation (normal direction), I waited until the needle on the dial reached a stall point before heading in the opposite direction as the spring decompresses.  At this stall point (Max valve lift), I zeroed out the dial indicator.  Now turning the crankshaft in a counterclockwise rotation until I was at .015 (or 15 on my Jegs dial indicator).  From this point, I turned the crank again in the clockwise rotation until I reached 5 on my dial indicator (which is 0.005).  the reading on the degree wheel was 30 degrees ATDC.  Now that I marked down that value, I continued to turn the crank in the clockwise rotation until the needle hit "0" and started back around the dial.  When I was at 0.005 again (5 on my dial indicator), the degree wheel was at 52 degrees ATDC.  Since the degrees were already in ATDC, I added them together and divided by 2 to get a centerline of 41 degrees.....  ONE HELL OF A FAR CRY FROM 108* on the cam card.

So what I am gathering is that the piston hits TDC.... then on its way back down at about 41 crank degrees, the valve is open at its max.  The way the cam card reads is that the intake valve should be opened to it max at 108* after TDC.

Below is a picture of the degree wheel I am using.  Right to the right of the TDC yellow arrow is degrees marked with a black line (as opposed to in yellow when its to the left of the TDC arrow).  I got 30 degrees after TDC and 52 degrees after TDC.

Jay had pointed out that my dial indicator is in 0.0005 increments so rather than timing the engine at 0.05 Lift, I was timing the engine at 0.005 lift, but I should still come to roughly the same centerline doing it the way I was with my dial indicator.  At this point, I am open to any and all ideas.  I know for seasoned engine builders, the timing probably doesn't pose this much of an issue, but as much as this is becoming a HUGE pain in my ass, I still have a lot of fun learning new things and building this engine  :-)
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/E4F64533-5735-4A29-9A94-C02383E9D830_zpsswhrdhp7.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/E4F64533-5735-4A29-9A94-C02383E9D830_zpsswhrdhp7.jpg.html)
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/B9863C67-8218-462D-A6D6-6BBDE5762ABA_zpsos7iwi82.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/B9863C67-8218-462D-A6D6-6BBDE5762ABA_zpsos7iwi82.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 10, 2014, 12:08:27 PM
Of note, I did just realize going through my pictures on Photobucket that I am using a different Dial indicator this time.  I am using the dial indicator I used to measure the main bearing oil clearances and when I timed the engine the 1st time, I was using the dial indicator that came with the degree wheel/timing set.....  I am going to switch out the dial indicators when I get home to see if there is any difference.  The one that came with the degree wheel is a lot more detailed (where as the simplistic one I am using now is very basic).  Just a thought/ shot in the dark
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 11, 2014, 03:53:03 PM
OK been staring at the picture of my degree wheel in a trance.  I figure this. (and this is more so I understand.... not so much the traditional way its probably handled)

I came to 30 degrees ATDC and 52 degrees ATDC at 0.0005 lift (5 on my dial indicator).  This is a 22 degree split.  So I can assume that the way I am using my dial indicator, I need to get the cams to read 2 numbers at 0.0005 lift before the needle stalls on the indicator, and also at 0.0005 on its way back down.  These numbers came to:

97 degrees ATDC and 119 degrees ATDC. at 0.0005 lift.  This gives you 97+119 = 216 / 2 = 108

So from where my cams are now...I would need to retard them a lot.  From 30 degrees ATDC to 97 degrees ATDC is 67 crank degrees.  In reading back through Jay's 519" build, moving the cam dowel 1 hole moves the cam timing 1.5 cam degrees, or 3 crank degrees.  I would need to retard the cam about 22 holes.  This sounds like a lot, but the cam dowel holes are all only "slightly" misaligned....  when you move the dowel 1 hole, you barely have to move the cam in relation to the sprocket to get it to move.  The problem is that after a certain number of dowel movements, the 4 small bolts that holt the retainer plated to the sprocket to the cam wont align.  You would have to turn it until the 4 bolts around the circumference align again.  luckily, the dowel holes go all the way around the cam without a break.  Hopefully by the time I move it 22 times, the 4 bolt holes will be aligned again.

In looking at a picture of the cam on the racedyne website, 22 dowel holes seem to mean that the degree markings on the cam are about 28.6 degrees in the wrong place.  When I alight the "o" on the cam with the cam sprocket @ 90 degrees off the head surface, the "0" is truly 28.6 degrees retarded from that mark.  Again, I will check probably this weekend and report back.  I have noticed that when I go into the garage tired after work and the 4 hour round trip commute, things usually go wrong.  Weekends are way more relaxing.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 12, 2014, 07:53:26 PM
Its been a long time since I have written with something other than a problem, but GOOD NEWS!  Everything above was correct!  The 28.6 degrees the cam was suspected of being off was exactly right!  However, with Jays insight, he figured out that turning the cam 22 adjustments of the cam dowel would not work due to the 4 bolt holes not re-aligning.  Jay had figured out what each link in the Large timing chain equated to in Crank degrees!  by taking the sprocket off the cam and retarding it 3 links on the chain, and re-installing with the dowel pin aligned right under the dot / the "0" on the cam itself, I was at a cam timing very close to 108 degrees.  Then all I had to do was advance the cam to get to the desired 102 degrees.  Tested and true!

Then the real test.  I rolled the cam around to the knee....  zero'd out the lash on the rocker and slowly rolled the timing wheel over to 15 degrees BTDC, 10 BTDC, 5..., TDC, 5 ATDC, 10 ATDC, 15.......  and no contact.  Not only no contact, but plenty of room to spare!

Super excited, I wanted to see the intake valve in action now.....  I am still able to look down the intake port.  Intake valve opens when it looks as though it should, closes when it looks as though it should!  This doesnt sound like exciting news, but when I was assuming the cam degree marks were correct from Racedyne, The valve was starting to open as the piston was still moving up...  as the valve cam down, the piston met it at a value BTDC.  This confused me to death.  This would have caused exhaust gas to blow back up the intake port.... Im sure BAD NEWS. 

I am so excited I can barely contain it.  I now just need to replace the checker spring with the real spring, and install the rest of the rockers back on the shaft.

Then off to the left cam.... with Jays wisdom in hand, I am quite sure this side will be no problem.  Without sounding like I am a born again religious fanatic, JAY IS AN FE WIZARD!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: TimeWarpF100 on September 12, 2014, 09:14:37 PM
Really watching this one!

Exciting build for sure
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: R-WEST on September 12, 2014, 10:32:35 PM
Man, talk about a guy who doesn't give up!!
You're definitely an inspiration!!   8)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 13, 2014, 06:48:52 PM
Thanks guys.  Finished up the timing today on the left cam. Unfortunately, same deal with the marks being off. So after retarding the sprocket 3 links in the chain, i was at 106 degrees. So Right cam is 102 degrees and the left cam is now 106. As for the PVC, i have oodles of clearance now even at 0 lash!!!  Finished off today by torquing the tensioner bolts, idler bolt, head caps, cam sprocket bolts and getting the rockers all in place. Going to lash the rockers maybe tomorrow as well as torque all of the timing cover bolts to spec.  Almost ready for intake and oil pan!

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on September 13, 2014, 08:56:40 PM
It still seems odd to me that the colored links in the chain were off.  Whose chain was it?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 14, 2014, 07:55:36 PM
Hey Jay
Went back and recounted and they were right. It was a chain from Precision Oil Pumps. Embarassing, but they weren't all off by 1 link, I was counting between the colored links and not counting the colored links themselves. Learning experience. LOL. Now im dying to see if the windage tray fits with no interference. :-)

Thanks again for all of your help with this build.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 18, 2014, 12:56:04 PM
OK there has been a short Pause for a reason.  I wanted to get studs for the intake manifold, studs for the valve covers, and the correct small bolts that hold on the pointer, stub cam cover, inspection covers, etc.  I also picked up ARP 12 point nuts for these studs so it will be "pretty".  All should arrive by Friday, so hopefully this weekend will be somewhat productive.  I also ordered a Oil pump priming drive....  I want to prime the oiling system when I'm done so I can make sure first that I did not leave out a plug somewhere... and second, that I don't have a leak.  I think you can run it with an electric drill.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on September 18, 2014, 08:53:21 PM
Remember to spin the drill backwards, or you'll be cursing!  Best of luck getting the beast together.  Sounds like you're on a good track.

- Bill
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on September 19, 2014, 06:40:04 AM
A speed handle with the right size socket works as well. Just be sure to duct tape the socket to the handle to prevent it from dropping off!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 19, 2014, 10:01:35 AM
Thanks Guys!  Good tips.  Last night I went back at it.  I lashed all of the intake valves at 0.016  and all of the exhaust valves at 0.023.  FINALLY LOL  The last thing I did for the night (as I am still awaiting the ARP 12 pt nuts for the valve covers and intake, was to put on the valve covers.  Not a huge step, but a mile marker for me for sure.  in order to keep the cork gasket from moving around, I put 5 or 6 tiny dots of TA-31 on the valve cover surface and positioned the gasket.  after a minute or 2, I was able to put it on without the the gasket moving on me.  I put the studs I got from "Bolt depot" on in anticipation of the nuts which come today.  So next step is to put on the inspection covers and stub cam cover and flip it over to put on the oil pan.  I am so close..... I can taste it.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 19, 2014, 07:40:15 PM
Ok so the ARP 12 point nuts came today. I got the valve covers bolted down using the studs. I also took the opportunity to put the copper sparkplug tubes and o-rings in place. I then torqued the sparkplugs down at 20 ft lbs. wanted to seal up the heads so i feel better now. I have studs and 12 pt nuts for the intake manifold so i will do it tomorrow. See below:
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/C1812EFF-855E-42A4-B73E-CC5426C5C3DE_zpsbcuwvjjv.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/C1812EFF-855E-42A4-B73E-CC5426C5C3DE_zpsbcuwvjjv.jpg.html)
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/F389176D-24FC-437C-AB30-A4B1D9578267_zpstypannl4.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/F389176D-24FC-437C-AB30-A4B1D9578267_zpstypannl4.jpg.html)
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/E7F5E8F4-F0F4-4277-919C-84870BA6EC8C_zpse8f5clxa.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/E7F5E8F4-F0F4-4277-919C-84870BA6EC8C_zpse8f5clxa.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 22, 2014, 12:19:31 PM
Another spot of good news (and believe me... I'll take it where I can get it at this point!)....  The windage tray fits perfect with no interference at all.  I believe I will have to enlarge the rear sump pick up support bracket (the one that will bolt under one of the main cap stud nuts.  Right now, the bolt hole is too small to fit around the stud.  The First gasket has been sealed to the block (trimming away a small amount of material around the rear main cap bolts as there was a small bit of interference.  I used the windage trey as a compression tool by bolting it down on top of the gasket and sealant.  It has been drying for about 2 days.  I dry fit the pick up, and this is when I discovered the fitment issue.  I will make the hole a little larger and then seal the other side of the 1st gasket to the windage tray, the 2nd gasket (front and back and bolt it all together with the stud and nut kit.

I need to start looking for a dyno person to run this engine (and fine tune the timing), but nervous.  I guess I wont know until I try.  :0\
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 23, 2014, 12:06:21 PM
Well as expected, another hiccup.  the intake manifold bolts are 3/8-16.  8 of the 10 bolts torqued down to 20 ft lbs no problem.  2 of them stripped.  I honestly am starting to hate aluminum!  Anyway, luckily this was a dry torque (sans sealer).  I wanted to make sure I wasn't going to have any issues before I sealed up the intake with the TA-31.

So given this, I purchased 3/8-16 Heli-coils.  I am going to replace all 10 bolt holes with these coils.  Picking them up today from the auto parts store.

In other news, I found out my EFI system does not control my timing curve via the distributor.  In talkin with Jay as well as the techs at MSD, I need to replace the 2 heavy silver springs that the distributor comes with out of the box with one light silver spring and one light blue spring.  Also need to change out the bushing to a black (smallest) one.  This should produce the proper timing curve.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: AUSSIE427SOHC on September 24, 2014, 01:05:48 AM
Thanks Jay.  I will see if I can fashion something in order to get the spring off.  I see they make a universal spring removal tool that they sell at Autozone.  Its like $20, and I don't see why it wouldn't work. 

So just so I understand, I will still use clay? (I saw you used a check spring and clay in the 519" build).  The only difference is that the check spring gives you the "worse case scenario" as far as valve depth?  And If I used a normal spring, the valve would not travel as "deep" just turning the crank by hand thus not giving you an accurate measurement?  Even when you use a check spring, the heads still need to come off to remove the clay for measurement right?

I believe out of the who build process, timing the cams has had me the most nervous (So much so that I purchased an extra set of the ferrea lightweight valves just incase)  lol  Hopefully I don't need them!

Hi Jason, I found your thread last night and read all 18 pages to bring me up to speed. Just curious about the valves you bought, do you have a part number or were they a custom order? I am just about to start building my own heads.

Cheers, Warren.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on September 24, 2014, 06:22:42 AM
Well as expected, another hiccup.  the intake manifold bolts are 3/8-16.  8 of the 10 bolts torqued down to 20 ft lbs no problem.  2 of them stripped.  I honestly am starting to hate aluminum!  Anyway, luckily this was a dry torque (sans sealer).  I wanted to make sure I wasn't going to have any issues before I sealed up the intake with the TA-31.

So given this, I purchased 3/8-16 Heli-coils.  I am going to replace all 10 bolt holes with these coils.  Picking them up today from the auto parts store.

In other news, I found out my EFI system does not control my timing curve via the distributor.  In talkin with Jay as well as the techs at MSD, I need to replace the 2 heavy silver springs that the distributor comes with out of the box with one light silver spring and one light blue spring.  Also need to change out the bushing to a black (smallest) one.  This should produce the proper timing curve.

For a 3/8 threaded hole to strip at 20 ft lbs, you must have had an issue, even with aluminum.  They can handle much more than that.

Did you check your thread depth and bolt length and account for the washer?  Is it possible you cross threaded the bolts that stripped?  Could your torque wrench be off?

Too short can pull threads and too long can push them out, I'd look close, it'll do the same thing with a helicoil, you'll just end up with a bigger damaged hole.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 24, 2014, 08:12:49 AM
Hi Warren,

The valves are light weight Ferrea Valves.  Oddly enough, I live right near the Ferrea factory that makes the valves, but when I asked if they could sell me a set, they gave some reason that they could not along the lines of "Bill Coon" owened the rights to the valves and I would have to order a set through him or one of his suppliers.

Luckily, Keith Craft had a set.  I actually drove from NYC to Arkansas so he could do a 3 angle valve job and install the valves.  He did a great job by the way.  When I got home, I contacted him again and asked if he had another set.  He had one left (at the time) so I purchased it as a spare set.  I am glad I did because I needed it  LOL

My advice is to contact Keith or Shelly Craft in Arkansas (Keith Craft Motorsports), or speak with Jay Brown.  I am not 100% sure, but I think he uses Manley valves?  He may have the information you need to order a set from Manley.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 24, 2014, 08:20:53 AM
As far as the 3/8"-16 bolt holes for the intake, It is very odd.  I can say that the 2 bolts that stripped were both on the Driver side head.  All other bolts (8 others) torqued down with no issues at all.  I am thinking it was just a bad thread job and with aluminum threads.... they just stripped.
Not taking any chances, last night I got 3/8-16 steel helicoils.  I drilled out (carefully and nervously) the bolt holes as instructed.  I stuffed balls of painters tape in each drain hole in the valley of the block as well as a piece over the distributor hole.  I used tape instead of paper so any metal shavings would stick.  I made sure when I drilled out the existing threads that I did it in steps.  Each time I pulled out the bit to make sure I wasn't going any deeper than the original hole.  Then I tapped each hole for threads as I went for the Helicoils.   After the drilling and the tapping, I used a shop vac to suck out the hole of shavings as well as anything that dropped onto the valley (block).  I was meticulous about this, and even when I was done for the night, I left the tape covering each hole in the block until I can come back and scrub it out with soap and water.... and sucking that up with the shop vac.

As of right now, all 10 holes have the helicoil installed.  I have longer studs coming today in the mail, and 12 point ARP nuts to fit.  Rather than using the grade 8 bolts, I am going to use studs with ARP lube.  I figure if I bottom out the stud and then just torque the nut, I wont run into any stripped threads.  I also ordered studs for the carbs (EFI throttle bodies).  Holefully that will be the last time I need to use Helicoils.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: KMcCullah on September 24, 2014, 11:33:14 AM
I'm surprised the 3/8-16 threads stripped at 20ft/lbs. And I said this before when you had problems with your aluminum block but I'm really surprised that every tapped hole in the aluminum head castings didn't have some kind of threaded insert. It's just a standard thing for me with all of the machinery I build. Every tapped hole gets a threaded insert of some type with cast aluminum. Now billet aluminum is a different deal.

I'm anxious to see this baby on a dyno. I don't think I've ever seen a true 427 SOHC dyno sheet.  8)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Jim Comet on September 24, 2014, 11:49:57 AM
Make sure you verify the torque for the studs you are using when torquing with ARP lube. Some years back I used ARP lube on stock head bolts and tried to torque them to the stock spec. I ended up pulling the threads out on 2 holes in my iron block. If you were using ARP lube on the bolts that stripped out, it may have been due to over torquing due to the super slippery ARP lube.  Jim
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 24, 2014, 12:04:00 PM
I think what worried me about the threads stripping before the Heli coils is that it was only 20 Ft Lbs.  I didn't use ARP lube on them when they stripped.

I am hoping that at only 20 Ft Lbs, the helicoil threads will hold.  In other great news, the Post office changed my date of delivery to tomorrow.  Honestly the post office down here sucks.  Looks like I will have to wait until tomorrow night to get the intake bolted down  :0(
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on September 24, 2014, 02:22:33 PM
I have to agree with the comments Ross made above about your torque wrench.  20 ft-lbs seems awfully low to break a 3/8"-16 fastener.  I think you mentioned that you broke a fastener on the front as well.  I'd borrow another wrench if possible and check some of your other fasteners.  Back a few off and re-torque.  You may find the correct torque is far less than what you've been seeing with your wrench.

- Bill
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 24, 2014, 02:55:38 PM
Will do.  Its a brand spanking new $120.00 Craftsman.... I only purchased it for this build.  I guess I could check it against a neighbors and see if its the same.  Luckily Craftsman has a lifetime guarantee.

The other 8 intake bolts torqued down to 20 ft lbs no problem..... and the bolt that snapped off on the front of the engine... I wasn't using the torque wrench on that one.

the small nuts on the cam caps got 20 ft lbs as well with no issues.....Not really sure.  What I am sure of is that all 10 are now Steel Helicoils instead of just aluminum threads... so 20 Ft Lbs should be nothing.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Joe-JDC on September 24, 2014, 08:20:13 PM
Also, if you are using a fine thread nut with Arp lube, then the torque value will be less than 20 lbft dry.  Have you re-torqued your head studs/bolts?  If the torque on that right head relaxes, then that head did not get properly heat treated.  If you check the bolts, and they begin to squeeze the aluminum into the hole below the head of the nut/bolt, the it is not hardened properly.  Just a cautionary suggestion, but I would recheck your head torque.  Joe-JDC
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on September 24, 2014, 09:12:07 PM
I think it would be a good idea to take Joe's advice.  You have had a lot of trouble with threads stripping on this project, and that tends to point to at least one of the heads not being heat treated properly.  Re-check your head bolt or stud torque and see if there are any major changes.  You shouldn't get any significant turn on the fasteners if you torque them to the same value as before, regardless of whether the torque wrench is in calibration or not.  And I'm skeptical that the torque wrench is so far out of calibration that you are stripping the threads.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on September 25, 2014, 06:49:14 AM
Its entirely possible that a torque wrench could be that far off, especially at the bottom of the scale, although he said he stripped one before he torqued it.  I have mine calibrated pretty regularly, and actually have had a couple come back listed as unusable.  These are Snap-on too, it happens and its usually off on one end of the scale or the other

The studs should fix a thread engagement issue, but I'd still look at that with the bolts that came out for an answer.  Too long or too short, both take the threads out, heck a bolt hole full of oil could too.  Mechanical pressure from a bolt that is too long or hydraulic pressure from a full bolt hole has to go somewhere, and if too short, they'll certainly pull threads out in a hurry

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 25, 2014, 07:34:20 AM
Of note, I did remove both heads when I bent the valves (and to machine the intake valve relief in the cylinder.  And I have to say that those head bolts were definitely on there tight!  Not one of them was loose from the first torque down.  But I will check.

And the studs I will be putting in (rather than using the grade 8 bolts are fine thread all the way up.  3/8-16.  Do you think it would be prudent to just tighten then like 1 quarter past tight with a regular wrench rather than to torque them?  Torque wrench only goes as low as 20 ft lbs (if the calibration is correct)?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on September 25, 2014, 07:55:25 AM
Maybe you can check your torque wrench the easy way, like I did...

http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=352.msg2659#msg2659
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 25, 2014, 10:05:49 AM
Thanks Jay.  That's really a neat way to check all the way up.  Mine is a clicker too (in 1 ft-lb increments).
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 29, 2014, 09:13:10 AM
OK had some family activities this weekend, but I was able to get some garage time in on Sunday evening.  I purchased a few lengths of studs from Bolt depot to make sure I had what I needed for the intake manifold.  I am thinking that the 427 SOHC manual from form gives one length for intake manifold bolts, but with the more modern re-pops... they will prob. not work as well.  I ended up going with a 2" stud.  This is quite a bit off what the manual says it the correct stud, but this let me bottom out the stud into the Heli-coil and then I used a flanged 12 point ARP nut.  Now I would like to tell you that I torqued them all down, but I didn't.  I used a regular ratchet and tightened them until they were tight, and then did a quarter turn.  Honestly I didn't want to wreck my weekend as I have not had a chance to check the torque Wrench for accuracy.

Once I had that buttoned up, I went on to the oil pan.  I had the first gasket sealed onto the block and the rest bolted on dry just to check clearances.  That was last week.  This week I purchased some modeling clay from the store, and set to work checking and sealing up the pan.  The pan I am using is an 8qt rear sump.  This was due to the fact that it has to clear the tubular K member in the Saleen.  So given this factoid, the 8 quarts is held almost entirely where the pick up is located.  No chance at all of the oil pump ever being starved for oil.  To get the pick up tube to fit correctly, there is a small brace that is supposed to bolt under the center main cap stud.  Oddly it was too small to fit over the stud, so I drilled out the hole a little larger on the drill press.... cleaned the pick up off, and then mounted it loosely under the stud.  Once I had the 2 bolts that hold the pick up onto the oil pump itself, then I re-torqued the main cap stud back to 115 ft lbs.  placing the ball of modeling clay on a sheet of plastic wrap (so it wouldn't get smooshed down into the grate of the oil pick up, and slightly oiling it so it wont stick, I lowered the pan down on top just to see what kind of clearance I had....  pan didn't even touch the ball.  Now this would worry me on a regular pan, but like I said this is an odd shaped pan with 8 quarts of oil above the pick up tube.... even if I had 3 inches of clearance between the bottom of the pick up and the pan, I would prob still have 6 inches of oil above the pickup.  There is a picture on page 2 or 3 of this forum page of the pan to get a visualization.

Anyway, once everything was tightened down, the sandwich of gaskets, windage tray, more gaskets and pan ... all held together with sealer were self locking flange nuts were used with studs (from Moroso and came with the Pan.)

I was also able to swap out the springs in the Distributor to one light grey spring and one light blue spring (in lieu of the 2 heavy grey springs it comes with out of the box.)  I also swapped out the bushing to the Black bushing.  The only thing I need to do now is swap out the cast Iron gear for the steel gear I purchased.  It says I need to press it off and press the new one on, but I cannot seem to get it under my shop press in such a way that is secure.  Does anyone have a tip on an easier way to press on and off the gears on the distributor?

Im all ears!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 29, 2014, 02:23:08 PM
Just got off the phone with MSD.  For $35.00, they will press off the old cast Iron gear and press on the new Billet Steel gear to the exact spacing.  If I tried this at home, I would just end up breaking something.  Turn around time is 15 business days, so I guess I am stalled for right now.  Better to leave it to the professionals.  I think now would be an excellent time to work on the Motor mount clearance issues.  If you remember a few pages back, the AJE tubular K member came with a set of FE motor Mounts.  This was awesome, however, they forgot to mention that they fit every FE engine EXCEPT the side oiler due to the oiling passage on the (Drivers?) side of the block.  Due to that oil galley, the 2 sides bolt patterns are not identical.  I am going to mark off where where the bolt hole should be, machine it out on the mill, and fill in the old bolt slot (to make sure it keeps its integrity).  I think I will also Mount the K member while the engine is on the stand to make double sure I have no clearance issues.  I haven't figured out how to run the power steering pump, so It may just stay a manual steer car!  lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 29, 2014, 08:09:16 PM
Took some pictures tonight when I got home

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/B80E8515-5692-46D1-B38A-311BB27B4CA4_zpsgbuqfjyn.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/B80E8515-5692-46D1-B38A-311BB27B4CA4_zpsgbuqfjyn.jpg.html)
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/C4D8DB89-B81F-4B44-8D11-F9C77A321A7E_zpsptj2hq1m.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/C4D8DB89-B81F-4B44-8D11-F9C77A321A7E_zpsptj2hq1m.jpg.html)
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/17A21798-DABF-4390-ACE6-04DA51B57B33_zpsn31fxvqe.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/17A21798-DABF-4390-ACE6-04DA51B57B33_zpsn31fxvqe.jpg.html)
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/F647E37D-1AE8-4DCD-BA70-6D6EF4C66178_zps1wvxt6m1.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/F647E37D-1AE8-4DCD-BA70-6D6EF4C66178_zps1wvxt6m1.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 01, 2014, 02:33:58 PM
OK small updates.  I went to Jegs and purchased 2 oil filters.  I purchased a K & N filter just for the break in Oil/ Period.  Then I purchased a Moroso Race filter after the break in is complete.

I was able to seal up the water pump gaskets to the pump and then seal the pump to the block. Before I installed, I installed plugs into the 2 areas where I believe fittings go for the heater core.  Being in South Florida, no need for heat so plugged with thread sealant.  Then on to attaching the water pump. Just to be safe, I put thread sealer on both the top and bottom bolt threads on the passenger side bolts.  I believe one or both of them goes into the water jacket, but just to be safe I put sealer on both.  The drivers side bolts did not get any sealer.  All 4 bolts were torqued to 25 ft lbs.

I pulled out the large water neck from its storage box.  Wasn't too pretty at all since it looks to be just raw steel pre welded.  I cleaned it off with brake cleaner to remove any debris or oil residue, and wiped it down.  Then I sprayed it with a VHT grey paint (good up to 550 degrees).  I let it dry over night and plan to seal it up with a gasket (and some TA-31) tonight using some extra stainless steel studs and self locking flange nuts I had from the oil pan install. (mistakenly had two packs of the oil pan studs, so had an extra pack after the install).  Should work and look great.

What I am curious about is this:  There are plently of tutorials out there on how to replace a distributor on a car that had a distributor already, but how to you install a brand new distributor on a brand new motor.  My guess would be to start by getting the engine to TDC on the compression stroke for cylinder 1 and installing the distributor so that the rotor is touching the #1 wire.  This would make the spark ignite at TDC and then you can time it to fire some degree before TDC when it gets running...... but that's just my guess.  Does anyone have any tips?  Distributor wont be back from MSD for a few weeks, but I would like to start planning my "Attack"

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on October 01, 2014, 05:23:39 PM
Yup bring to TDC on the compression at  #1 and drop in the dizzy and point the pointer at #1. You can put the timing light on it and get it very close.

Why the 2 different filters?
There is A LOT of debate about which filter, but I really see no need to use one filter for break in and a different one for actual running.
I use the Mobil One filter.

Always kool watching your cammer build.


Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Joe-JDC on October 01, 2014, 08:28:37 PM
Actually I would suggest you bring the #1 piston up to TDC on compression stroke, and then rotate it to 12-14* BTDC and install the distributor with the leading edge of the rotor just coming into contact position with #1 spark plug terminal.  That way the engine is much closer to being timed properly and ready for break-in, and will not run hot with a retarded timing.  Joe-JDC
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on October 02, 2014, 01:18:31 AM
Good advice on the distributor stab, Joe.

Oh- If we see an orange Fram filter on that engine, we'll be organizing a pitchfork mob!  Your choices look fine to me  :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 02, 2014, 08:34:49 AM
I saw that the Orange Phram replacement filter is a direct replacement for the Ford filter listed in the Cammer manual.  Definitely not going that route.  I purchased 2 filters just beause after the break in (using the Joe Gibbs break in oil), I am sure there will be some kind of debris filtered out....  it micro metal flakes from the cams braking in, the stub cam breaking in, etc.  I figured it would be smart to put on a fresh filter when I change the oil after break in.  For the extra few dollars (Moroso racing filter was only about 22.00), I will have more peace of mind.

Also I went into the garage last night to install the freshly painted water neck with the stainless steel hardware and remembered that a thermostat needs to go in there first!  LOL  Funny after all of these years, I am still buying the small stuff as I find need.  So last night I again went on Jegs and got a Milodon thermostat (180*) for pre-1967 390-428....  Should be the right one and 180 sounds about right as well.  Oddly, there is no mention of the thermostat in the 427 SOHC manual from ford.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on October 02, 2014, 09:03:41 AM
Another odd FE thing. There are two different sizes of thermostats for the FE. Big and small.
The early years used the big and latter years used the small. But by the look of the cammer intake thermo hole
you "may" need the small one. Should be a local purchase though.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 02, 2014, 02:14:30 PM
Jegs only has 1 size thermostat for the Ford FE engine.  So I went to Autozone and selected a 1963 galaxie 7.0 (which I believe was the 427 FE?).  When I looked up thermostats again, there was only 1 size there as well.  They have more of a selection at which temperature it opens, but the thermostat itself was the same size.  I will wait for my Milodon thermostat to arrive (Monday) and if its not the right one, I will go from there.  Until then.... keeping the fingers crossed!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on October 02, 2014, 09:25:33 PM
I think its like this. The big thermostat is if you have the expansion tank
on the engine and the smal one is if you have a regular thermostat housing
but dont qoute me on that
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 03, 2014, 06:00:17 AM
That is incorrect, it's based on the intake manifold water outlet.

Here you go 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mil-16406/overview/make/chrysler

However, you can also go to the local parts store and get one for a 66-78 440 Mopar
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 03, 2014, 08:04:50 AM
Hey Ross,

that is the one I purchased from Jegs.  I think I should be good to go.   8)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 03, 2014, 09:17:45 PM
Pulleys on.... As you can see not even close!
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/181C3011-7505-47BC-8594-E907C9F563CA_zpsubjfvxuw.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/181C3011-7505-47BC-8594-E907C9F563CA_zpsubjfvxuw.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Leny Mason on October 04, 2014, 10:02:03 AM
Hi I just started reading this story as I am building one my self, the pickup tube needed to be drilled out because that rod bolt should have a stud on the end to bolt the pickup tube to, so it will not turn when tightening main bolt,  I think it is a 3/8 stud, that is why the clay was not smashed.   Cobracammer you did a great job with patience, doing it right takes time, Leny Mason
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 04, 2014, 10:05:44 AM
Factory SOHCs used a special bottom pulley to make the alignment work.  They are kind of hard to come by, and they are single pulleys, not double.  What you will need is a spacer for the bottom pulley, to make it line up with the top pulley.  Use some long bolts and washers to mock things up so the pulleys are aligned, then you can measure the thickness of the spacer you need.  You'll have to find a local machine shop to make it out of aluminum for you.  Make the center hole in the spacer large enough to fit snugly over the little lip in the center of the harmonic balancer, to keep the spacer centered on the crank.

Nothing's easy, is it? ::)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 06, 2014, 08:22:01 AM
I will take some measurements, but as you can see from the picture, the spacer will be the exact same size as the pulley itself.  Thanks!  On a "smaller" note, thermostat will be here today so I can button up the water neck.  Oil filters came in this weekend, but the bolts (grade 8 hex) that I used to install the Oil filter mount stick out a little too far.  I ordered the Socket head bolts that will recess into the fitting itself and end up flush.  I wanted to throw out some boxes and such this weekend so I filled the engine up with the Joe Gibbs break in oil (left 1 qt so I can fill the oil filter itself before I install) and threw out all of the empty bottles.  Its an odd feeling that the shelves are almost empty of parts..... Since I have had these parts for years now.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 06, 2014, 11:56:27 AM
This is a small block (Ford 302) crank pulley.  From the measurements from the website, it seems to be exactly what I need width wise.  Only issue is the 3 hole spacing on this one does not exactly match the Ford FE pulley (by a very very small amount).  Curious if I would not be able to clock this pulley and drill 3 new holes using the FE pulley as a template.  This would make life easier.
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/5750180_B-SBFE2CR-Side_zps63202a45.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/5750180_B-SBFE2CR-Side_zps63202a45.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 06, 2014, 03:10:07 PM
 After talking with the Tech, they said that many of their pulleys are drilled for multiple applications.  I guess there has never been a need to have an FE crank pulley stick out this far (as the Cammer isn't common).  When it gets here, I will see.  Looks promising@!
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/5750180_B-SBFE2CR-Side_zps63202a45.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/5750180_B-SBFE2CR-Side_zps63202a45.jpg.html)
[/quote]
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 07, 2014, 08:51:07 AM
Well surprise, surprise.... the thermostat from Jegs was too big.  I called around and was able to locate a selection at NAPA (local thank God).  He said he has both sizes plus a ton other he can match up to the required diameter just incase.  Since they close at 6PM every night, I will have to wait until Saturday until I can pick it up.  Its these "STUPID" little things that are taking the longest....

So right now I am waiting on Saturday's thermostat.....  Thursdays stainless socket head bolts that will recess in the Oil filter holder (So I can fill up and screw on the K&N Filter and prime the oiling system with the electric drill and tool), and the Small block Ford crank pulley that I will need to drill out the correct bolt pattern, but will be the correct alignment.....  We shall see.

In other news, I am trying to arrange time with my father for him to come down and help me remove the Saleen's engine (and mark the wiring harness so I know what goes where).  I figure it will be easier as a 2 person job...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Richard F on October 07, 2014, 07:51:02 PM
My '66 F100 with a 352 had the large thermostat...if you need something to order for.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 08, 2014, 08:06:54 AM
Thanks Richard.  I think I had the large thermostat (which was the one I ordered from Jegs).  I went to NAPA autoparts yesterday as I believe them to be the most valuable when it comes to knowledge.  I had them pull a thermostat for a 1963 Galaxie 7.0 and a 1967 Galaxie 7.0....  Weirly enough, the thermostat was the same size for both.  I purchased the thermostat (195*) for the 1963 Galaxie 7.0 (because the one I got from Jegs said for 1967 and up ford FE engines and it was incorrect)....  Luckily earlier was better.  The earlier FE engines had the smaller Diameter thermostat.  Sad because I wanted to install the Milodon high flow one, but this one will have to suffice (until I feel like trimming the Mildon thermostat to fit  !)

In other news, I measured last night for the crank pulley (just to be sure) and it seems like its going to be spot on as far as distance.  In searching Google images, there were one or two pictures of Cammer engines that look like they are also using the small block ford pulley (from what it looks like).  I say that because it does not look as if there is a spacer, but rather a deep dish pulley (unless they had a custom made pulley).  I digress!  The pulley is on its way and it should line up nicely.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 08, 2014, 08:11:59 AM
Well, something's wrong there, because the earlier engines had the larger thermostat.  Later versions came with the smaller diameter one.  Guess it doesn't matter as long as you've got the right one now...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 08, 2014, 08:42:46 AM
Hey Jay,

Its weird right?  I must have been at Napa for a good 45 minutes as he looked up different year 427 FE engines by ford and pulled the thermostat.  I ended up just purchasing the one for a 1963 Ford Galaxie 7.0 2X4 barrel carb and it fit perfectly into the recess.  Like you said..... as long as its done!  I am hoping the 195* thermostat will be fine with the Saleens electric fan and modern radiator.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: R-WEST on October 08, 2014, 09:41:46 AM
You've gotta' get that thing done/installed, Jason. 
We're all on the edges of our seats, here!!   8)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 08, 2014, 01:44:07 PM
LOL  Me too!  I just actually purchased the wiring harness that will make a 3G alternator work with the 6G alternator harness for the Saleen.  I also picked up an alternator (internally regulated) that will work with the FE engine (200 AMPS) just because everything is electric in the Saleen.  I have the V belt pulley that came with the March Pulleys, so good to go!  Nothing else to do but put in the rear cam tunnel plug (blocked while on the engine stand) and drop in the car!  I am soooooooo glad to be done building.   
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 08, 2014, 07:10:28 PM
Ok bolts came today. I filled up the K&N oil filter with joe gibbs, oiled the seal and screwed it on!  I took the electric drill and attached the engine oil pump priming tool. Since i cannot see inside anymore, i ran the pump ( counterclockwise) for about 5 minutes at full speed. Not sure the PSI that creates, but no leaks anywhere yet!

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 08, 2014, 07:59:56 PM
Jason, have you got an oil pressure gauge you can put on the engine while its on the stand?  It's always good to monitor the oil pressure when priming, just to be sure.  If you don't, I'd at least pull a valve cover and make sure you have oil coming out of the rockers.  It can be messy to prime with the valve cover off, because the oil will want to drip over the edge of the head, but its better than starting without oil pressure.  When I prime the oiling system I can always feel a major drag coming on the drill when the pump primes and starts forcing the oil into the engine.  Did you feel the drill spinning pretty free at first, and then getting dragged down within a few seconds of starting?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 08, 2014, 08:11:39 PM
Yes!  Drill was wizzing for a few seconds, and then there was resistance  i will see if i can find a cheap oil gauge and hook it up

Exciting
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 09, 2014, 12:21:07 PM
Here is another good question.  I am sure not many (if any) Cammer engines had power steering since they were all mostly used for drag racing.  However, I would like to retain power steering in my Saleen.  Since the Cammer engine was built in 1963 and the water pump for this engine is a modified FE water pump ....  Would this bolt right up to the 2 right hand side bolts on the water pump?  Its either this, or I have to have someone fabricate some special bracket with custom attachment points to keep the ford 4.6 modular power steering pump.???
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/PSP_zpse834a197.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/PSP_zpse834a197.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on October 09, 2014, 11:42:36 PM
Jason -

I would strongly suggest keeping the modern power steering pump.  It's engineered to work with your existing rack (pressure and flow matched).  Hopefully the crank pulley you're putting on the SOHC is close to the same size as the original 4.6L pulley.  Are you rev limiting the SOHC close to the limit of the 4.6?  If so your alternator and PS pump should be OK.  Just be careful revving to the moon, especially if the SOHC pulley is bigger.  You could make dents in your hood.

FYI at Ford we tested two-speed accessory drives for the high-revving SHO Yamaha V6.  That was one trick setup!  It would spin the big crank pulley 1:1 at idle, giving plenty of steering boost and good alternator output.  Above a certain rpm, I think around 4500, the drive would shift down using a planetary reducer, which would save the accessories from over-speed.  We could shift the test cars beyond 10,000 rpm with no bother!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 10, 2014, 08:37:02 AM
LOL  Purchased it last night.  My plan is to use the steel bracket to allow me to install a power steering pump on the Cammer while only using to bolt attachement (both on the water pump).  I will use the power steering pump from the Saleen, but it mounts differently, so with a small piece of steel, a drill press and a welder, I believe I can get the saleen pump to mount up.  Only issue I will see is getting a V belt pulley for the Saleen Pump (as it comes serpentine and I seriously doubt they make a replacement pulley in V type for a 2005).
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 10, 2014, 12:54:27 PM
OK Alternator and Pulley arrive tonight.  I will hopefully get those sorted this weekend.  Here is another picture of the engine with the water pump, Oil filter, water neck (with the #@!*@ thermostat installed.  I temporarily bolted the water pump pulley with some washers and bolts just so I could get an accurate measurement to the Dampner face for when I was ordering the crank pulley .

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/90B4965A-9EE5-433C-AB2B-93F566EFC9B8_zps1u7ozsuo.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/90B4965A-9EE5-433C-AB2B-93F566EFC9B8_zps1u7ozsuo.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on October 10, 2014, 05:16:13 PM
Can you imagine the puzzled looks your going to get at your first get together/show with your hood up? :o
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 10, 2014, 09:13:10 PM
LoL. I bet!  Ok so alternator is on.  Large case and 200 AMPs, i needed to trim the bracket a tiny bit, but other than that, perfect!
Unfortunately, the small block crank pulley that came today is off like 0.5 inch. Sucks!  I could use spacers on the water pump pulley, but the the alternator will be out of line. Looks like i will need a spacer for the crank pulley after all. 2 steps forward and 1 step back
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 12, 2014, 12:08:52 PM
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/17C56098-5A99-40AF-9114-43D6F5BC8D40_zpsgmns1gb3.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/17C56098-5A99-40AF-9114-43D6F5BC8D40_zpsgmns1gb3.jpg.html)
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/95978B24-B92E-4A89-8EA0-DFF0ED65E6D9_zpsppgypzzs.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/95978B24-B92E-4A89-8EA0-DFF0ED65E6D9_zpsppgypzzs.jpg.html)
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/10106036-39C4-4470-BE8F-F49EEC9275DD_zps86xhcagl.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/10106036-39C4-4470-BE8F-F49EEC9275DD_zps86xhcagl.jpg.html)
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/CFCC3612-D302-4E27-836B-D20DB9CC19A9_zpsgruriinm.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/CFCC3612-D302-4E27-836B-D20DB9CC19A9_zpsgruriinm.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 13, 2014, 09:51:20 AM
Hey Jay.  I cant really make out some of the measurements.  the "0's" and "6's" possibly look the same (Or maybe they are 5's  LOL).  I wanted to use this to double check my measurements.  I don't have the measurements I sent you with me, but from what I can remember, they look close?  If that's the case, I will most likely go with your measurements!

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/SOHCcps_zpsa4b45da7.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/SOHCcps_zpsa4b45da7.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 16, 2014, 02:48:32 PM
OK, Sent out my Crank Pulley to Jay for a custom Machined Spacer so I can finally slap the belts on this puppy and get her installed.  I also checked in on MSD for the gear swap on the distributor...  They received it on the 9th and I should expect it back about 3 weeks later.... so that's also pending.  The March Pulleys look so nice on this engine, that I decided to pick up a March Water pump Pulley cover. (March is located just a little drive away from me).  Since this car will retain its electric fans, there will be no fan/clutch on the front.  My pulley kit came with the cover for the alternator Pulley, but the water pump cover was separate.  It came yesterday and fits perfectly!

Also, I have been going back and forth with this.  I got the Power steering pump and bracket (newly rebuilt).  I was told by the tech I purchased it from that it produces 1,000 PSI.  I have called all over to find out what PSI the power steering pump on the 2005 Saleen produces with no luck.  I then tried to find out what was the optimal PSI the 2005 Saleen (Mustang GT) rack operates under.... Also no luck.  I called every since Auto parts store (including Napa who usually always has the answer).... Nothing.  Then I contacted 3 or 4 different Mustang specialty shops what rebuild power steering pumps for the 2005 Mustang GT....  even though their advertisements say they test the pressure, etc, they didn't know what that pressure was!  How do you check the pressure on these remanufactured units but not know what the pressure is/ should be?>  HAHAHA 

I tried the ford dealership, I tried looking in Mustang II rack conversion PDF instructions....  Nada!  I did read somewhere that you will only run in to trouble mismatching power steering pumps if you turn the wheel all the way to one direction (Lock?) and then raise the RPM's.  The article said that the power steering rack will only use the pressure its supposed to under normal driving conditions, and the highest pressure is when the wheel is turned as far right or as far left as it will go.  Since I will still have the saleen pump set aside, I am going to try the 1963 Ford power steering setup I got and see if it works.  It would be the easiest as I have the correct brackets and Pulley.  If it doesn't work, I can always bring the car somewhere to have them fab a custom bracket to hold the Saleen Pump in its stead.

Last weekend I picked up zip ties and card labels.  I am going to start disconnecting the harness on the Saleen engine and labeling it as I go.  I will need to re hook everything back up to the Cammer engine so my stock gauges continue to work.  I may have doubles on the temperature sensor as the Saleen computer needs one that runs the fans and gauges, and the FAST EFI setup I have needs one for the throttle bodies.  I have installed the EFI temp sensor already in the intake manifold, and have 2 other openings (currently capped with pipe plugs) that I can utilize for the saleen sender.  I will need to fit the Saleen oil pressure sender onto the Cammer and figure out how to either make the Saleen Tach work with the FAST system, or get an aftermarket tach (which is what the first person to try this project did).

Anyway, just a little update.  Getting closer and closer with each passing week!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: R-WEST on October 16, 2014, 07:19:35 PM

Your persistence is inspiring!!   ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Leny Mason on October 17, 2014, 08:41:01 AM
Hi I bought a alternator / power steering pump from someone on the fe fourm that bolts at the orignal location, it fits great, its off a volvo one belt a real cool setup you should post on fe fourm to see if he has another, its neat one belt. Call me if you want and see if I can email you a picture 1-406-two-two7-758seven Leny Mason
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on October 17, 2014, 09:34:35 AM
Leny would you pm me a pic of that?
Don't wanna hijack.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 18, 2014, 10:49:28 AM
Hi leny

Yes. Please post a photo of that setup on this page. I would love to see it
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: thatdarncat on October 18, 2014, 12:53:08 PM
A little different solution, but here's a link to the other forum on what Randy M. did for an SOHC with an Isuzu component that has the pump and alternator combined. Just to further the discussion for anyone looking for ideas, kind of slick I thought. Not sure if this is what Leny is thinking of.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/message/1304037204/
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Leny Mason on October 18, 2014, 02:32:02 PM
cobra,  Hi that is the one that I bought its a cool setup, I thought he said it was Volvo doesn't matter Isuzu pickup. Leny Mason   
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 18, 2014, 04:26:23 PM
Here is my setup at this time
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/628F5C76-EBDC-4021-9F77-5ED92C66E69E_zpsp8lqz637.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/628F5C76-EBDC-4021-9F77-5ED92C66E69E_zpsp8lqz637.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Leny Mason on October 19, 2014, 07:50:38 AM
That looks great to me if there is room, Wayne Jeffers did what you are doing years ago said it was a perfect fit, he said it had no name valve covers on it,  and and the kids / tuner bunch said wow that has a Honda engine in it, so he put Ford valve covers on it, that fixed that, Waynes gone now ,one of his stories. Leny Mason
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jmlay on October 19, 2014, 02:36:25 PM
I'm very interested in this power steering pump alternator combo. I have done a bit of searching & all I come up with is an alternator & vacuum pump combo for an Isuzu truck. IS this a case of mistaken identity or are there 2 combo's? Anyone have a part number or specific application for further research?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 20, 2014, 08:05:03 AM
Same here.  I saw that its a vacuum pump on the back of the Isuzu alternators.  Also, I only found up to 110 Amps....  the Saleen has a base need of 135 Amps.  I like the idea of the combo though.  Can the Vacuum pump be used with hydraulic fluid (like PS fluid) to run the pump? 

On my end, I am ready to Pull the Saleen engine.  I spent this weekend very meticulously marking each wiring connection/ sensor connection with tags and zip ties.  You would not believe how many sensors/ etc. are on these modern car!  I found cam sensors, crank sensors, A/C compressor sensor, and most of the usual ones.  Either way, It took the better part of 3 days to slowly pull each connection, mark it accordingly, and pull it out of the way.  Last one left is the water temperature sensor and oddly enough it is located in the Valley of the block.  I have taken out the AC condenser, Radiator and Fan combo, and literally there is a TON of room under the hood.  Cammer engine measures 31 inches across at the widest part, and that seems perfectly suited to fit where the modular motor sits.  I have my father coming down thie weekend and I will pull the engine and hopefully get started swapping out the stock K member and suspension with the AJE tubular cross member.

Also, I have noticed that the motor mounts will work fine if I only use 3 bolt locations to mount them in stead of all 4.....  Would 3 bolts mounting the motor mount to the block suffice? 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 20, 2014, 09:00:13 AM
Three bolts for the motor mount plate will be just fine.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Leny Mason on October 20, 2014, 09:01:16 AM
Hi after you get the old engine out look at all your coolant temp sensors / sensers, now is the time to find a spot for them before you get the new one in, I think there is three if I remember right just a reminder I have done some of these swaps, the new cars have a lot of sensors and sensers what a fun car it will be. Leny Mason
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 20, 2014, 10:49:28 AM
Hey Lenny,

Already started.  There is a Coolant temp sensor (which should mount right near the distributor on the Cammer), there is the oil temp sensor, which on the Saleen is mounted in a bung in the oil pan, but I may not use it as there is no gauge for it, and then there is the oil pressure sensor which on the Saleen is mounted right where it would be on the Cammer (in the oil filter adapter.)  I have the aftermarket harness to link the 3 G alternator right to the 6G harness from the Saleen, so that should take care of the volts.....  So on my dash gauges, That covers water temp, volts, oil pressure, Fuel pressure (which is not controlled from the engine bay, so it should be fine).  Speedo will come from the trans.... and tach is still a work on progress.  The Saleen has a crank sensor which feeds the speedo.  I am googling my little heart out to see if there is some way to convert the signal from the MSD distributor so that the harness for the crank sensor can read it and give an accurate RPM on the Tach.

I have pulled the whole harness and marked each and every plug.....  Tons of them will not be used, but at least I will know what is what!  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 20, 2014, 10:50:30 AM
Three bolts for the motor mount plate will be just fine.
Thanks Jay.  I will shave the Drivers side a little so it clears the screw in water plug, and then I should be set!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 20, 2014, 11:26:32 AM
OK gentlemen......  I need assistance with a little experience.  I just got off the phone with MSD ignition, FAST EFI, Painless Wiring, Ron Francis wiring, Summitracing (who sent out feelers to all he knows in the field), and about a dozen others......

The MSD 6AL ignition box puts out a 12 Volt "Square Wave" signal.  The original Crankshaft Position sensor on the Saleens Modular 4.6 puts out a 5 Volt "Square Wave" signal.  I need to somehow convert the 12 volt "Square Wave" signal to a 5 Volt "Square Wave" signal so the Tachometer will work.

Now they do not make an aftermarket Tach that will fit in my dash panel for the 2005 Saleen S-281.  They sell tons of converter boxes that will turn a 5 Volt signal into a 12 volt signal, but no one seems to know how to go in the opposite direction.

It took me hours and hours of research, and I came across a small forum page on "Honda's".  Someone was using an MSD product and could not get their Tach to work.  A bunch of (I will call them electrical engineers for lack of a better term) chimed in in a language lost to me.  However, they stated that if you go to RadioShack and pick up a 5V regulator with a heat sink(?) it will work.  Lo and behold.... they tach worked.....  Where I get foggy is they show a picture of the 5V regulator and I couldn't even begin to guess where this gets connected????  At the harness connection? spliced into the wiring somewhere?  Soldered to the back of the Tack unit in the dash?  Take a look at the forum posting.  I am going to stop by a radio shack this weekend and chew the fat with the techiest person I can find there.

http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=523124
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 21, 2014, 11:37:41 AM
On another subject, I contacted the builder that has experience in this swap.  The Ford FE engines used a coolant temperature sender to send a signal to the gauge.  Starting in 2005, Ford stated using CHT senders rather than the coolant temp sender.  CHT are Cylinder Head Temp senders and are installed into the passenger side head toward the rear of the engine in the Valley area of the block.  Tony (the gentlemen who has done this project before) said that I can use the CHT sender in place of the coolant temp sender.  I just need to find a brass adapter and screw it into the 427 SOHC's intake manifold so its in the coolant.  Interesting..... but apparently ford did this because the CHT registers the temperature even when there is no coolant where as the Coolant temp sensor from days of Ol'e are not quite as accurate when they are not submersed in coolant (i.e. air pockets in the coolant or out of coolant).  Either way, good to have you all and Tony for bouncing ideas off of.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jmlay on October 21, 2014, 12:26:13 PM
A voltage divider may be the easiest/best solution. The current should be low but higher values of resistors would be wise.

http://www.raltron.com/cust/tools/voltage_divider.asp

or if you want to get really crazy you can play with the zener diodes.:

http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/diode/diode_7.html
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 21, 2014, 12:40:14 PM
That's just it!  This is how they got it to work, but where do these go?  Do they have to be made into a circuit board? 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 21, 2014, 03:45:17 PM
A little different solution, but here's a link to the other forum on what Randy M. did for an SOHC with an Isuzu component that has the pump and alternator combined. Just to further the discussion for anyone looking for ideas, kind of slick I thought. Not sure if this is what Leny is thinking of.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/message/1304037204/

Hey Guys, are you actually using this as power steering?  I did some research and its a vacuum pump for the Isuzu Diesel trucks.  Says it cannot be used for power steering and it actually is a vacuum pump to assist the Brakes (Servo?).  Its an awesome Idea/Setup, but has anyone tried it on the cammer to see if it works?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: thatdarncat on October 21, 2014, 04:36:45 PM
Well, I was just going by what Randy called it, I haven't seen one in person. Maybe makes more sense looking at the fittings. Leny bought it, let's see what he says.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jmlay on October 21, 2014, 05:26:14 PM
No it does not need to be made into a PC board. It will go between the MSD tach output of the MSD & the wire feeding the tach in the cluster.

- Ground to ground
- MSD tach wire to Vin
- Tach cluster to Vout
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on October 21, 2014, 06:03:49 PM
You may want to also consider a secondary set of gauges. If you've ever noticed, and it's been discussed, most modern car manufacturers gauges are not much more than OFF/ON gauges. the gauges don't "sweep" to register variations like they used to, they just go to the middle and stay there. They are basically designed to register somewhere between "self destruct" and "explode". It gives the modern driver comfort and piece of mind knowing that nothing has changed so everything is perfect ::)
A good set of gauges, even if they're small, can alert you to problems not otherwise seen.
Just a thought.

edit: But thinking about it, I don't know if Saleen uses their own gauges, which may actually be better than the factory stuff.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Leny Mason on October 22, 2014, 08:35:40 AM
Hi I have not done my home work on the atl / p/s pump maybe I got a bad deal on it I will try and find out more, My Sohc is not running yet, maybe Randy Can tell me. Leny Mason
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 22, 2014, 09:03:11 AM
You may want to also consider a secondary set of gauges. If you've ever noticed, and it's been discussed, most modern car manufacturers gauges are not much more than OFF/ON gauges. the gauges don't "sweep" to register variations like they used to, they just go to the middle and stay there. They are basically designed to register somewhere between "self destruct" and "explode". It gives the modern driver comfort and piece of mind knowing that nothing has changed so everything is perfect ::)
A good set of gauges, even if they're small, can alert you to problems not otherwise seen.
Just a thought.

edit: But thinking about it, I don't know if Saleen uses their own gauges, which may actually be better than the factory stuff.

Hey Doug.....  NOPE, Saleen uses the cheesy Mustang Gauges.  I think I have a good handle on what I need to do to get the tach to work with the voltage divider (RadioShack).  Super excited to pull the engine this weekend.  I will take some pictures (for those of you who wish to see an empty engine bay!  )  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 22, 2014, 08:30:18 PM
Ok got my MSD distributor back today from having the billet steel gear installed.  My first step now that the valve covers are on was to find TDC. I turned the engine over until I saw the exhaust valve open. Then kep going until it said TDC.  then turned it again unitl it read TDC 1 more time since that would be the beginning of the compression stroke.  Now with TDC found ( actually 5* or so before), i lubed up the distributor gear with the lubricant that comes from MSD. The slipped on the thick rubber seal, and slid it down into he block.  It took a few tries, but I got it dropped down with the distributor pointing right at the # 1 cylinder spark plug hole. Then put on the distributor hold down and tightened it down. Tomorrow I will work on making all of e spark plug wires wit ceramic boots, rubbed dust covers.  Definately not easy to turn the engine over now by hand.  As i turn it, i can hear compressing air trying to rush out. Is that normal.?  I dont really hear it on videos i watch on youtube.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 22, 2014, 08:46:30 PM
Sounds normal to me.  Got your pulley today, by the way...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 22, 2014, 08:51:19 PM
OK so below are the photos of the Engine in the Saleen poised for removal as it stands now.  As you can see the Wiring harness is littered with ID tags so I know what I need to use and what I can wrap up when the Cammer is installed.  I stopped by Pep boys yesterday to pick up an OEM AC/Fuel line disconnect tool so I could get rid of the AC tubes and disconnect the fuel line from the fuel rail.  If you do a youtube video of it, the tool seems to be the easiest thing in the world to use.  Just push and release.....  35 minutes into this, I just said screw it.... I took a set of tin snips and cut the AC lines (refrigerant has already been removed).  I will never ever be installing the ac into the car again, and the portions connected to the AC compressor remain untouched for when I sell it.  The fuel line I have not started yet as I most likely do not want to cut it like that and last night I knew that's where I was headed if I kept going.  Fuel line should be the last thing holding the engine to the car aside from the Motor mounts.   

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/D136BD53-3933-4C09-A46D-D6B21BE51BF3_zpsebsxpoan.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/D136BD53-3933-4C09-A46D-D6B21BE51BF3_zpsebsxpoan.jpg.html)
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/04E8C330-F6FE-43FC-8E44-5AF3827BF1F0_zpszrbnh1rq.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/04E8C330-F6FE-43FC-8E44-5AF3827BF1F0_zpszrbnh1rq.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 23, 2014, 09:17:33 AM
Sounds normal to me.  Got your pulley today, by the way...
Awesome Jay Thanks
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 27, 2014, 12:59:15 PM
OK it has been a long weekend!  LOL  Father wasn't able to get down to assist, but the show must go on!  After getting a lifting strap wrapped around the stock motor, I took a little of the weight off od the stock motor mounts.  Oddly enough, there is only 1 nut holding the engine on the motor mount on either side..... and I might add that it was not on there tight at all .....  hand tight at best.  Scary, but good for my cause.  After lifting the engine a little, I used a little back and forth rocking to get the mounts free and the engine popped right out.  unfortunately I had a power steering hose hooked around something and broke it (the eng that screws into the rack is TINY.  Doesn't look like a big deal though.  Its a hose with a compression fitting on one end that it clamped on and not screwed on.  I will just purchase a new one.

With that being said, not a bad job for doing it my self.  With the engine out, I took the opportunity to roll it out into the driveway and carefully spray down the engine bay.  Its a fairly new car so not really that dirty, but just to make it a less dirty job when I swap out the K member.  While the Saleen was out in the sun drying, I took the time to clean out the garage a little and store the Saleen stock engine out of the way.  I still need to pull the temperature sender, oil pressure sender, and oil temperature sender and install them on the Cammer engine, but have decided to do the K member first.    Honestly with the Mod motor out and the radiator out, it looks to be a huge space! 

I want to remove some of the refrigerant lines that will no longer be used, also I want to keep but plug the heater tubes (with Forida Sun and a 427 SOHC, I seriously doubt I will ever have a need for warm feet or defrosters!!!!

Anyway, I just need to see if they are coil overs in the front of the car or if they are traditional springs in which case I will prob need to rent 2 spring compression tools from Autozone.  Just a little update.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 27, 2014, 08:15:07 PM
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/A707DA5A-B1AA-4225-BA43-8E722854EEE4_zpsfyesabzh.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/A707DA5A-B1AA-4225-BA43-8E722854EEE4_zpsfyesabzh.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 28, 2014, 03:48:40 PM
OK, did a little scouting mission last night.  The front springs on the Saleen are a coil over type spring.  2 bolts hold it to the spindle area and 5 bolts holt it to the top of the tower.  There will be no need for spring compression tools, so I will get started tonight.

I am curious what the weight difference is between the Modular 4.6 ford engine and the 427 SOHC.  Car already sits so low (with the Mod engine in it) that the Floor Jack jusssst makes it under.  I am sure those are fairly still springs (modified at Saleen), so I will be curious to see what the stance looks like with the Cammer under the hood.

On a side note, I have been trying to track this recent college graduate down in Wisconsin as he had made a "circuit board" for his final school project that takes 12 V square wave signals (like from the ignition box) and converts them into 5V square wave signals.  If I could just get ahold of him, My stock tach would work with the MSD ignition.....  I have the name, I have his town, I have his current employer, but its almost impossible to find out an email address (or phone number).  The journey continues
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on October 28, 2014, 04:56:56 PM
See engine weight in this link.

http://www.sullivanperformance.com/yvs450/tech/tech1.htm

Jay can provide the SOHC's weight which I am sure is at least 100 lbs. heavier. JMO.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Bolted to Floor on October 28, 2014, 09:41:24 PM
I have been following your build, great thread.
You may want to rethink the defrosters.  Aren't you in Florida? The midday rains and a little heat will have everything foggy on the inside in a hurry.



On a side note, I have been trying to track this recent college graduate down in Wisconsin as he had made a "circuit board" for his final school project that takes 12 V square wave signals (like from the ignition box) and converts them into 5V square wave signals.  If I could just get ahold of him, My stock tach would work with the MSD ignition.....  I have the name, I have his town, I have his current employer, but its almost impossible to find out an email address (or phone number).  The journey continues

I know your on a mission for the answer, but this is almost stalkerish!!! Good luck and hopefully you will dodge the restraining order.  :o
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Jim Comet on October 29, 2014, 06:56:45 AM
Have you contacted the MSD tech line to see if they have a product or sulution? Jim
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 29, 2014, 08:13:21 AM
Hey Jim,  i have contacted MSD and about 75 other places over the last 2 weeks. No one has anthing that will work and no one knows of anyone that does. No biggie though...least of my problems. Anyway last night i was able to button up the spark plug wires. Unfortunately MSD 8.5 superconductor wires are to girthy to fit the cammer ceramic plug boots, so i installed the wires without them.
I used the firing order of: 1,5,4,2,6,3,7,8 and the rotation of counterclockwise on the distributor. I found out that there is a little Male plug-boot that is supposed to go onto the Baster 2 coil, and then the coil plug wire can be installed.  Unfortunately, that did not come as part of the MSD plug wire kit, not did it come with the coil.  Had to order it just now and should be here in a few days.  See below for my progress with the plug wires.  I tried to make each one to its proper length, but I spent most of my time grumbling that I could not got the ceramic boots to fit over the wires.....  I bet they make it 10X easier to install the wire on the spark plug.  What a pain in the ass that turned out to be!

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/EEBDF61B-E02A-4AC0-BF99-E6A131B1443E_zpsso0bryxe.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/EEBDF61B-E02A-4AC0-BF99-E6A131B1443E_zpsso0bryxe.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 29, 2014, 09:22:06 AM
Just to make sure I did this correct, when I installed the distributor, I found TDC on the compression stroke of cylinder 1.  Once I did this, I installed the distributor with the cap off so that I could make sure that the point was facing the #1 cylinder.  I had to adjust it a a few time, but eventually when I slid the distributor down, the gears caught and the point ended up pointing directly to the Number 1 cylinder.  when I reinstalled the distributor cap, I marked that same #1 position on the cap.  My thought now was that the point in the distributor is pointing towards #1 cylinder on the compression stroke, so that is where I will install the #1 spark plug wire (but when I look at pictures online, it seems as though they have the # 2 plug wire going there.

On the other hand, it could just be that it doesn't matter how you have your cap positioned as long as the firing order is correct?  It could just me a matter of where you have the distributor point pointing when you install it and going from there.....  Thoughts?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 29, 2014, 10:47:36 AM
Your firing order is correct, and it is true that it doesn't matter where the rotor is pointing when you drop in the distributor; all that matters is that on the firing stroke on #1 the rotor is pointing just a little before the distributor cap terminal that goes to the #1 plug wire.  The stock location for the rotor is pointing towards the rear of the engine, kind of pointing in the general direction of cylinder #8, when the #1 cylinder is firing.  I like to put mine with the rotor pointing directly to the front of the engine when #1 is firing.  It isn't going to matter, as long as the plug wires go to the right plugs, in the firing order, as the rotor spins counterclockwise.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 29, 2014, 11:47:04 AM
Thanks Jay.  So if I understand that correctly, you want the spark to ignite the fuel at a certain timing degree After Top Dead Center?  If the engine is set to exactly TDC on cylinder 1, and the rotor is positioned slightly before the point that feeds the #1 plug wire, that means that the spark will be created ATDC right?  Wouldn't you want ignition a little BTDC? or am I not seeing this clear?

The way I have it now, I set the Engine to about 6* BTDC as per the timing marks on the Dampener.  Then I put the point with the #1 spark plug wire directly on top of the rotor pointing to #1 cylinder.  My thought was that I would have ignition at 6* BTDC and then could time the engine from that point.  I am sure I am just missing a small piece of the puzzle here.   :P
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 29, 2014, 06:24:04 PM
Probably not a good choice of words on my part.  The position of the rotor and cap don't determine when the spark fires, only where it goes.  With my MSD distributors I've found that the spark fires when the rotor is not perfectly aligned with the terminal in the cap.  Usually the terminal on the rotor is just starting to get lined up with the terminal in the cap when the spark fires.  You want the spark to fire BTDC as you mentioned, and positioning the rotor as I just described will get you close, based on my experience anyway...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 29, 2014, 06:58:09 PM
Perfect. Thank you kindly
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 31, 2014, 11:05:18 AM
OK little update.  Over the last 2 nights (and remember I am doing all of this by myself !)  I have managed to remove the front wheels, remove the rotors and calipers and suspend them with bungee cords to the hood hinges through shock towers,  and remove the coil overs on both sides.  Next is to unbolt the stock K member which has 4 bolts on each side.  2 bolts on the frame rails in each wheel well, and 2 bolts at approx. where the seats are located in the car.  Let me tell you that those things are on there snug!  I took the rachet with the correct socket, and then put a socket on the end of the rachet handle and put the longest extension I had on that to make it more like a breaker bar.  I have air tools and a compressor, but my father borrowed his own quick disconnect fitting back, so I am SOL until I pick up a new one.  I placed the floor jack under the K member in the middle to support the weight and to stop it from falling once all the bolts are loosened. I have 4 of the bolts loosened, but still need to unbolt the 4 bolts in the wheel wells.  Before I do that, I need to slide under the car and unbolt the steering shaft from the rack.  It looks to be only one bolt on a clamp fitting.  I will remove the K member with the Rack still installed as I want to make sure when I reinstall the rack on the AJE tubular K member, I don't screw up the alignment..... Not sure If I will need to get it aligned anyway afterwards, but taking the precaution now.  Seems anal, but since Saleen installed these wonderfull coil overs with N2 shocks and bright red Springs, I figure I will give them a good cleaning like I did with the rear springs. 

Not going to have time to work on it this weekend as I have plans, but I love the progress so far.  Also feels great that the Cammer engine is Built and just sitting there on the stand awaiting its new home.

Also I wanted to throw another thought out there.  I was thinking about purchasing a nice set of shorty headers for the 2005 Mustang GT, and then just cutting the flange off and welding the Cammer Flange on.  Does this sound reasonable?> Or is there a reason I would need to bring the car down when finished for a custom exhaust?  I figured since they make headers for the saleen already and they were designed to fit in the engine bay.... with a little finess (extensions or shortening), I could save myself a lot of time and $$$
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 31, 2014, 11:26:57 AM
How big are the tubes on the headers you are thinking of modifying?  You'll be choking off a lot of engine horsepower if they're too small.  I wouldn't go less than 2" on that engine...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Joe-JDC on October 31, 2014, 02:38:11 PM
Not trying to confuse anyone, but if you leave your distributor timed this way, you will be WAAY off in timing.  The spark will jump to the terminal from the rotor as soon as it gets within its power range to overcome the distance.  To start you should have the balancer timing pointer at approximately 10-12* BTDC after you determined TDC on #1 by backing the piston down to the timing mark, then install the distributor with the rotor just before which ever terminal you choose for #1.  The tip of the rotor should be just coming into range of the terminal so that the engine will be timed and ready to start without having to move the distributor around after trying to turn it over with the starter.  The spark will jump the distance to the terminal as it moves in the arc and continue to spark the full sweep of that single terminal, and stop when the rotor moves too far for the spark to cross the gap, then on to the next spark wire terminal, etc.  The current in modern caps lasts longer because of the rotor having a wide rotor tip with an arc to get the most time for a complete burn in each cylinder.  All this happens very quickly, but I have tried to simplify it so you can understand the sequence.  Hope this helps start-up timing.  The light method works well, also if you have a light to connect to the points or module.  Joe-JDC.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 31, 2014, 02:55:49 PM
Thanks Joe. ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 31, 2014, 02:59:05 PM
How big are the tubes on the headers you are thinking of modifying?  You'll be choking off a lot of engine horsepower if they're too small.  I wouldn't go less than 2" on that engine...
Hey Jay.  What is the Ideal primary tube diameter? I think I was reading 2.5" to 3".....   Unfortunately, the highest diameter I could find for the 2005 Mustang was 1 3/4" to a 2.5" collector.  Wimpy I know.  Looks like its just going to have to be custom ( got estimates of about 1,500.00 to 1,600 $$ for custom stainless exhaust..... Ouch)

If I cannot find a large diameter primary tube header for 2005 Mustang GT's in the 2.5 to 3 inch range, it will be off to the exhaust shop!  LOL  It was worth a try!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Joe-JDC on October 31, 2014, 05:18:46 PM
Kooks headers have tubes that are over 2" diameter for Fords.  They say that they will make headers, but I am not sure of SOHCs.  Could call them and ask.  Joe-JDC.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 31, 2014, 07:49:22 PM
How big are the tubes on the headers you are thinking of modifying?  You'll be choking off a lot of engine horsepower if they're too small.  I wouldn't go less than 2" on that engine...
Hey Jay.  What is the Ideal primary tube diameter? I think I was reading 2.5" to 3".....   

2.5" is way too big.  2" to 2 1/8" is probably about right for your engine.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Leny Mason on November 01, 2014, 10:13:12 AM
Hi Cobra Cammer looks like its comming along well, On your steering rack once you have it unhooked do not  turn the steering wheel at all, there is a clock spring in side just below the wheel that will break if moved to far one way and thay are costly, just trying to help Leny Mason
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 02, 2014, 07:52:51 AM
Thanks Leny. Good to know because the rack and old K member came out Friday night!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 02, 2014, 08:52:47 PM
OK well, even though I didn't think I would have much time this weekend to work on the car, I was able to accomplish a bit.  First on Friday night, I was able to pull the stock K member.  Everything (no matter how small) is a monumental task when you are doing it yourself......  If I only have 1 more set of hands. 

Then Sunday night, we got back into town and I thought I would do a little more.  But you know how it is....  once your in the garage, you want to do a little, then a little more and before you know it you have been in there for like 5 hours!  I was able to get the AJE tubular K member hoisted into position and bolt it down.  This K member is designed specifically for the 2005 Mustang Chassis, so it becomes a matter of swapping over all of your old suspension parts from the old K member to the new one.  Once I had the new K member installed, It was on to removing the lover A arms from the stock unit, unbolting the Rack and pinion, and swapping over the hubs.  If I wasn't going it by my lonesome, I would have just unbolted it all as one unit and hoisted it up onto the new K member, but no such luck.  So I hade to unbolt each piece and reinstall back into its correct location.  But before I got started, I thought met me take this time to clean off the coil overs since they are installed at the Saleen Factory and are really nice units.  The springs are a hot red color and the N2 shocks are yellow.  You wouldn't know this since they were an off color of gray from being driven around....  So after a little brake cleaner and some elbow grease... I got them looking quasi-new.  Then I saw that Saleen also installed a front sway bar at their facility (same hot red color), so while I was able to access it, I unbolted it, gave it a good scrub down, and reinstalled.  With suspension clean and shiny, It was a matter of re-bolting everything back in where it came from.  Interesting thing is the AJE K member comes with its own hardware.  While installing the stock Lower A arms, the bolts that came with the new K member did not fit.  they had a non threaded portion of the bolt that when snugged down, would not allow the bolt to holt the part.  I found this odd since it was designed for this car.  So I just swapped their hardware for the OEM bolts that held it onto the stock K Member.....  Worked perfectly!  Long story short, it was just a matter of rebolting on the brakes and rotors, reinstalling the coil overs, reinstalling the ABS sensors and tightening everything down.  Last item for the night was the rack and pinion.  Taking Leny's advice, I did not want to move the wheel much from where it was located when the uninstall happened.  For this I called in the wife!.  The rack and pinion need to be installed into its mounting brackets at the same time the steering shaft is reconnected.  Its sort of one fluid motion at an angle to get them to go together at the same time.  So I asked my lovely assistant to holt the steering wheel still so that it would not more at all, and I hoisted the rack into position.  As soon as the steering shaft touched the rack, it was clear it did not align. So as to hot break anything, I asked her to slightly rock the steering wheel only about 1 inch in each direction as I continued to push the rack into place.  This worked perfectly.  I then turned the hubs so the wheels would be pointing straight when installed and the steering wheel was exactly straight up and down......  Success.  Then it was a matter of going back over each mounting point and making sure everything was tightened.  Put on the wheels and dropped her back down to sit on her new suspension.  NOW FOR THE GOOD NEWS!!!  I am completely finished with anything I need to do to prep for the Cammer install.  I am just awaiting the Aluminum crank spacer that Jay is machining out for me and the engine will be put into the car.  Honestly at this point I am relieved and at the same time excited!!!  I cannot wait to see that engine sitting in that car!!!!! So now I wait for Mr. Brown's handy work while I peek into the garage each night and giggle like a small school girl.

On a side note, there is a Lady that live 2 doors down from me.  When we first moved in, she saw an old 36 Ford in my driveway and came over with her wife to introduce herself.  She was telling me all about her Baby (a 2012 dodge Challenger - blue with white racing stripes) which is her pride and joy.  Each weekend she has a rolling cart with detailing products and she goes to town detailing that car for at least 3 hours every Saturday.  I don't think she has seen the Saleen since shortly after purchasing it, it was disassembled for this transformation and has been loced in the garage ever since, but I am sure we will be competing for attention throughout the neighborhood before the new year!

Below is a picture of the old stock K member after I had taken off all of the suspension parts, as well as a photo of the car sitting back on all "4's" with the new K Member installed.  Lots of extra room!


(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/B51DCBE8-7046-4B55-B07A-D7C1C12A5125_zpsjnbagymm.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/B51DCBE8-7046-4B55-B07A-D7C1C12A5125_zpsjnbagymm.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/422965F6-F19C-4E8D-8F5A-C24124F17898_zpswnws3nci.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/422965F6-F19C-4E8D-8F5A-C24124F17898_zpswnws3nci.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Leny Mason on November 04, 2014, 11:23:08 PM
Hi what is the k member made for,  is it a performance part, or made for a FE transplant ,glad the rack went in good I just had a customer come in with a clockspring broke, $ 380.00 for the spring only if he would of known.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 05, 2014, 10:06:58 AM
Hey Lenny,

Thanks a lot for the heads up on that.  I am def. tired of spending $$ at this point.  The K member (I am told) is a performance piece.  Its an AJE K member.  It is a direct replacement for a 2005 Mustang GT, but comes with a whole variety of Motor mounts that will allow you to put different engines in the car.  I need to adjust my Ford Big Block FE motor mounts a tiny bit to get them to work with a "Side Oiler", but it seems to be a really nice piece.  I only found out about it because of the article written about the guy who shoehorned a 427 SOHC into a mustang GT.  They used the same cross member.

Purchased the lift straps today from Speedway motors as well as a load leveler for the cherry picker.  One of the last little bits to do after the pulleys are buttoned up is the slave cylinder.

After speaking with the builder of the other 427 SOHC GT, he said the one thing that tripped him up was the spacing of the slave cylinder.  Since I am using the one from the old trans, and for the fact that a bell housing spacer was made so that the input shaft would be the correct length to work in a Ford FE, there has to be shims placed behind the cylinder to ensure proper depth.  Luckily enough, they do sell spacers for a Tremec T56XL, but unfortunately they are $20.00 for 0.125" LOL  I won't know how many shims I will need until I am ready to bolt up the trans to the block.  Hopefully there wont be that many needed.

I will feel a TON better when the engine fires and there are no water/oil leaks.... and none of my parts decide to take off out of the block.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 05, 2014, 11:43:24 AM
Forgot to mention also that I picked up a high Pressure fitting as well as an adapter fitting for the power steering.  I will need to cut the end off of the high pressure hose in the Saleen and crimp on the fitting and the adapter.

Adapter to screw into the 1963 Ford FE power steering pump is 5/8" inverted flare to a AN6 fitting.  Then the Power steering crimp on fitting will accept AN6....  Hopefully this will do the trick.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 08, 2014, 06:09:42 PM
Well, just a quick update this weekend. Wanted to get the rear cam plug installed now that the lift straps. After i got that in, i got it into the car, got one motor mount bolt in, but the other is not in yet. The hole isnt aligned perfect, so will need help with that. Either way, here is a photo. Couldnt stop laughing at the sight of it:
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/E86E221C-C8B4-41B3-BFFF-0AEEB3EA2BD2_zpszgplv0vz.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/E86E221C-C8B4-41B3-BFFF-0AEEB3EA2BD2_zpszgplv0vz.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on November 08, 2014, 11:35:58 PM
That is badass LOL!  You will surprise some folks with that...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on November 10, 2014, 02:15:08 PM
That is badass LOL!  You will surprise some folks with that...

I don't see what the big deal is. The original engine was an SOHC also ;D ;D

Seriously though, that is badass! Seeing that thing when you open the hood sends the cool meter off the scale. This is better than watching some reality show on TV...lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 10, 2014, 02:55:32 PM
LOl  Thanks Doug and Jay.  Yea, I think the coolest thing for me is I went from Changing my own oil..... to this project.  LOL  I figured out that I just needed to loosen both Motor mounts from the block a little and then the mount holes lined up with the K member.  Slid the bolts through and tightened the mounting pads back to the block.  Sitting in the engine bay all by itself now!

Now with that being said, I have decided to take it back out.  I know..... a glutten for punishment right?  After I got it in there, I started thinking about the alternator bracket.  I purchased one on ebay that is supposed to be for a 427 SOHC (re-pop), but with the large 200 AMP alternator, it doest give it enough swing to tighten a belt (I wouldn't think).  I do have a stock bracket that I am going to cut and weld onto the cammer one to give me a little more swing for tightening.  I know deep down if I rush, I will regret it.  Also, while I have it out, I am going to install the Pilot bushing, Flywheel and Clutch assembly as well.  I will install the bellhousing after its remouonted and then I can measure for the shims I know I will need behind the slave cylinder.

Also, although its a minute problem, it bothers me.... The Passenger side breather tube butts so closely up against the Saleen's Fuse box, that the breather cap wont fit.  I am thinking I will trim the breather tube (making sure its above the baffle with enough room got the caps prongs, so that it fits nice as well.

Feeling good though.  I had a concern with the Oil pan (rear sump) clearing the Power rack on the AJE tubular K member, but I have about 1 inch of clearance where the lines run.  Honestly, it looks FREAKING awesome.  Maybe when Jay is done with Clear valve covers, I can ask him to make a clear hood for the Saleen?  HAHAHAHA  Would be awesome to have that view while driving down the road  LOL.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Dave427SOHC on November 10, 2014, 09:37:17 PM
Is the stock hood going to fit??
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 11, 2014, 11:25:08 AM
Stock hood should fit nicely.  Saleen hoods are quite beefy (almost cowl like), so there is plenty of room.  :0)  Ill catch a break anywhere I can   ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Drew Pojedinec on November 11, 2014, 11:38:02 AM
Just stop the project now.... put some red velvet ropes around the car and some nice lighting, walaa... best money you ever spent :P

Lemme call my broker, I need to buy some stock in MT tire
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 11, 2014, 11:48:27 AM
It sounds a little "School Girl" but during the evenings, after work, I keep walking over to the garage door and flicking on the light....  and laughing histerically.  My wife thinks I'm crazy, but its a combination of the look (which is bad ass in my opinion) and the fact that I can see the finish line since I began in 2008-2009.

Let me also throw out my compliments to Jay.  He completed my crank pulley spacer this weekend and its on its way....  there is something about a precision milled piece of aluminum that it awesome.  Thanks again Jay.... O wizard of the FE world  LOL

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/spacer_zpsd50e6724.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/spacer_zpsd50e6724.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/spacerpulley_zpsd5b6140e.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/spacerpulley_zpsd5b6140e.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Drew Pojedinec on November 11, 2014, 11:51:06 AM
think you are laughing now?
Wait till the first time out when you burn through 4 gears at half throttle.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 11, 2014, 12:47:16 PM
LOL  I think my Boss just heard me squeal!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 11, 2014, 09:28:05 PM
Took tonight, while the engine is still in place to get the passenger side breather tube and cap to fit.  Without the cap, it fit, but you would not be able to put the cap on due to the master fuse box that is located on the fender well area on the passenger side.  I thought about moving it, but the "bundles" of wires coming out seemed daunting.  Even though I will not be using about 75% of the wiring harness from the original engine, I want to keep it all in tact until I have the car running.  Maybe a little further down the line, I will have the car rewired to eliminate the stock harness?  definitely wont be a job I would do myself. Drivers side, however, fit just fine with the cap on.

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/CB4EF803-0B6E-483C-99AC-59F725BAD4B0_zpsepqpdqb1.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/CB4EF803-0B6E-483C-99AC-59F725BAD4B0_zpsepqpdqb1.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: R-WEST on November 12, 2014, 05:16:15 PM
You are truly an inspiration!!  ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 13, 2014, 09:32:04 AM
OK the Adapter/Spacer Jay made for me as well as the FE pulley arrived back at my home yesterday evening.  Upon speaking with Jay (and since it had been bothering me since I measured it), I pulled the engine back out last night and put it on the engine stand.  When I used the clay ball method of measuring the clearance between the bottom of the oil pan and the Pump pick up, I actually got more than 1" clearance.  It was my thought (at the time) that it was an 8Qt oil pan with all of the 8 quarts on top of the pick up (Way this Canton oil pan was designed- Page 5 on my forum has a picture).  I didn't think it was a big deal.  But I have decided to order a special ARP oil pick up stud from Jegs (Backordered until Nov. 28th it says).  I figure after talking with Jay that if I am going to do this, I might as well do it right.  Easier now than after the trans and wiring are all hooked up.  I also picked up 2 new oil pan gaskets since I am sure you cannot reuse them.

While I wait, I am going to cut and weld the alternator bracket with the spare one I have.  I want to get more swing off of it since I am using a large case alternator.  Currently I only get about 1" swing.

I am also going to install the Flywheel, Clutch, Custom Tremec bell housing spacer, and the bell housing and measure for the slave cylinder.


Picture of the Crank Pulley and spacer installed:

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/19D109BC-1707-43FE-907E-5877CBC546E6_zpsp9izm83l.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/19D109BC-1707-43FE-907E-5877CBC546E6_zpsp9izm83l.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/4BF344E1-E400-4D1A-A0D9-B2466910A97B_zpsvqmyn4sx.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/4BF344E1-E400-4D1A-A0D9-B2466910A97B_zpsvqmyn4sx.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: thatdarncat on November 13, 2014, 11:54:19 AM
Jason, just something to watch for when you get running...when I swapped to a 3G 130 amp alternator on my car I had a problem with the belt slipping with only a small diameter single groove pulley. I solved it by going with a large diameter pulley to give the belt more area to grab. Going to a dual belt pulley would have worked as well, I just didn't have one on hand that would work with the shorter shaft on the 3G alternator. My professional mechanic friend also told me they have the best luck with Napa belts, so I use them as well. I'd try what you have, but watch and listen for slippage issues.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 13, 2014, 12:55:56 PM
Thanks Kevin.  Yea I have started to only use Napa now.  They seem to know what is what.  I think a larger diameter pulley would be better (If I encounter that issue) since I will have the power steering pulley to deal with on the other side. 
Thanks again!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 15, 2014, 09:41:45 AM
Ok, parts from jegs for correcting the oil pickup should be here soon. I took last night to work out the Saleen to cammer sensor/ sender swap. I figured out that the temp gauge is controlled by the saleens cylinder head temp sensor, oil pressure is self explanitory, fuel wasnt touched in the swap, and volts which will work fine with the 3G to 6G harness adapter i have

Luckily enough, the saleen oil pressure sensor threaded right into the Cammer oil filter adapter- so done!

For the temp sensor, it took many calls, but i found out it has M10 x 1.5 threads. Also confirmed it would work fine submersed in coolant ( since on the saleen, it is screwed into a dry hole in the cylinder head). So today i am going to but a 3/8 brass plug that will fit in the intake on the cammer, and then drill and tap for the sensors metric threads. Then all should play nice with the saleen wiring harness
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 16, 2014, 02:24:01 PM
Saleen oil pressure sensor and customized alternator bracket!  Fun stuff.  I was also able (over this weekend), to make an adapter for the Saleen's Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor.  This was the Temp sensor that had the M10 X 1.5 threads that needed to go in the 1/2 " NPT hole.  So I search around for a brass pipe plug with the thick square top that you would wrench on.  I chose this style over the flat Hex head one as I needed some "Meat" to tap into for the threads.  After drilling it out and tapping for threads, I used thread sealer and screwed in the Sensor.  Once that was in snug (Not to tight as Brass seems to be a really soft metal), then I used Pipe sealer on the threads of the plug and screwed that into the extra water jacket hole on the intake manifold (Right to the right of the distributor.  Perfect!  The only other sensor I found on the Saleen that I am chosing not to install on the Cammer was an Oil temperature sensor......  On the Saleen, it was a sensor that was screwed into a Bung on the oil pan.  However, there is no gauge for it!  It seemed to just feed information to the ECU.  I am guessing it assisted with the Engine Management program, but since I only need the gauges to work (Since I have a FAST EFI ECU), it wont be used.

I am dying to sell this Saleen Engine, Trans and rear end, but I cant seem to unload it!  I am only asking $3,800.00 for Engine, trans, driveshaft and rear end.  Ill keep'a try'n!

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/3B0AB9E9-1466-498E-B018-B9B6C3168536_zpsx1u0sczs.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/3B0AB9E9-1466-498E-B018-B9B6C3168536_zpsx1u0sczs.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/0A24ED78-D835-4C96-9312-142C5442DDB4_zps1d9q8tpd.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/0A24ED78-D835-4C96-9312-142C5442DDB4_zps1d9q8tpd.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on November 16, 2014, 02:33:33 PM
Hey Jason
I may be an idiot (check that, I am an idiot) but I couldn't find where you got that oil filter adapter.
I just noticed what a thing of beauty it is.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 16, 2014, 06:48:09 PM
Hey Marc,  its a high flow reproduction from precisionoilpumps.com
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on November 16, 2014, 07:53:18 PM
Gracias amigo 8)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on November 16, 2014, 09:51:02 PM
I noticed a pipe plug where the dipstick goes. So where does an SOHC dipstick go? I always thought they used the factory location, but maybe the head interferes with it there?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 16, 2014, 11:02:32 PM
Hey doug.  I tapped the stock dip stick hole and installed a pipe plug. Since the saleen uses a rear sump pan, and there was a dipstick made specifically for that pan, i decided to go that route. Good catch!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 18, 2014, 09:04:20 AM
OK ladies and gentlemen,

Last night I got started on fixing my own mistake.  I needed the oil pickup tube properly spaced.  I decided that I wanted to be 1/2 inch off the bottom.  I know some probably take it even closer.  With the oil pan removed and the new oil pickup stud installed, I put the ball of clay on the pickup screen wrapped in plastic wrap.  After pushing down on the oil pan, I could now feel that the ball of clay was being compressed against the bottom of the pan.  When I removed the pan and measured, I was at approx. 3/4 of an inch.  So in order to get to the 1/2" I was shooting for, I used a grade 8 SAE "extra thick" washer.  1 washer actually brought me to the 1/2" I was looking for.  I am just awaiting another tube of TA-31 so I can seal up the oil pan with all new gaskets, and I will be ready to install back into the car!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on November 18, 2014, 01:27:10 PM
How does that washer work?  Are you putting it between the oil pump and the block mounting pad in order to lower the pump / pickup assembly?

I wouldn't do that!  The pump mounting joint sees a ton of vibration.  You've got an extra leak path now with that extra joint, and the two fasteners will have an air gap under them.  They will never come up to torque properly, and you could very well crack the pump housing.  In addition, you're pulling your pump drive shaft out of the pump by 1/4".   It may no longer have enough engagement.

If I absolutely had to do something like that, it would involve a machined steel spacer plate with o-rings on both sides.  I'd also get a custom pump drive shaft made to the correct length.




Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on November 18, 2014, 01:40:25 PM
Or just bend the pipe to suit.
You know there is a gasket that needs to fit between the pipe flange and pump housing.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on November 18, 2014, 01:49:18 PM
I don't think he's changing the oil pump position, it should still be mounted at the front, directly to the block.  It is a rear pickup pan, so I think he is shimming down the long tube that reaches towards the back of the pan, and has the  pickup screen on it.  The tube mounts to a stud on one of the main cap bolts with a sheet metal fin welded on the tube.  So he is putting a little bit of twist in the oil pump pickup tube, but probably not much.  Without seeing it, it sounds to me like it will be OK.  How about a picture, Jason?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on November 18, 2014, 02:27:06 PM
Oh - OK.  That sounds fine Jay.  Jason, you may want to LocTite that bolt that you've put the washer on.  It will be more susceptible to loosening from vibration.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 18, 2014, 02:51:58 PM
Yes, correct.  I am not moving anything.  I am placing a washer between the oil pump pickup stud (the stud on that main cap) that holds the pickup (since its kid of long being a rear sump).  The Main stud that has a small threaded stud on it for securing the oil pick up.  I would try to bend the "mounting tab" that the bolt goes through in order to bring the pick up closer to the bottom of the pan, but with my luck, I will end up breaking it off or tearing a hole in the pickup tube.  In the pictures below, I am just putting a washer/spacer on the small thread side of the stud that the oil pick up.  This will be the attachment point for the middle "Tab" you see on the pickup.

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/Oilpumppickupstud_zps9e52e77f.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/Oilpumppickupstud_zps9e52e77f.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/8qtpickup_zps9a11d5a5.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/8qtpickup_zps9a11d5a5.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Jim Comet on November 18, 2014, 05:32:39 PM
I am personally fond of welding a tab that stick down 1/4 inch to the pickup housing. If suction sucks/flexes the tube toward the bottom of the pan the tab will stop the pickup from contacting the pan and causing starvation. Jim
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on November 18, 2014, 06:24:42 PM
I would feel fuzzier inside if it were closer than 1/2"....
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 19, 2014, 09:01:24 AM
Yea, Speaking with Jay, he suggested closer as well (1/4").   I was thinking last night and I may just add 2 thick SAE grade 8 washers and test that.  That would probably bring me closer to 1/4" off the bottom.  TA-31 should be in tomorrow afternoon, so tonight I am going to throw the Pilot bearing in the freezer in preparation for installing the Flywheel and Clutch (after sealing the oil pan) and I will be dropping this back into the Saleen this weekend!

I really do find the "think-tank" style of these forums extremely helpful.  Thanks to everyone
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 20, 2014, 09:46:51 AM
OK in preparation for the sealing tonight (TA-31 is here!), I wanted to dial in the gap between the oil pickup screen and the bottom of the oil pan.  I tried and tried!!!!  Best I can do is 0.737" from the bottom.  I tried bending the tab (I was praying I wouldn't tear something or break it off), and I tried putting 1 thick washer under the tab before I tightened it down. (2 washers would not leave enough threads for me to feel comfortable).  When I called Canton Racing, they specified that with that 8" deep rear sump, the pick up should be 7.5" deep so that would be 1/2" from the bottom (or a tad more with 2 gaskets and a windage tray).  Honestly, I think this is the best I can do.  With 8" of Oil above the pickup and a slosh baffle built in, 0.7" is it I suppose.

Anyway, this is going to sound like a really uneducated description, but I have been wondering about the Distributor shaft end play.  When I check this (with the distributor bolted in place, and the cap and rotor removed), the Shaft will not move at all up and down. (Note I still have the weights and springs installed).  However, parts do move.  The parts under the counterweights do move up and down a little.  There is a cylindrical "thing" below the weights with fins on it.  This cylinder and the plate below the weights moves up and down (just about as far as it shows in the instructional videos on youtube).  I am not sure why the whole thing does not move up and down thought?  Are the weights installed to something in the shaft that is fixed? (I don't want to start taking parts off a distributor if I am not sure what they are and how to put them back.  It gives me a little hope that if I pull and push on the "plate" below the weights, it and the Finned cylinder under it move up and down, but it gives me doubt that the whole shaft does not move up and down a few thousandths.

Also, to make sure I have the timing dialed in again, I checked for a 3rd time.  This time, I marked on the distributo with blue magic marker where the #1 plug goes in relation to the cap. (since I have to remove the cap to see the distributor.  I have the timing pointer at 11* BTDC and the rotor is just touching the blue mark on the distributor housing.  Hopefully after everyones help on this, I have it at least where it will start and I can dial it in from there once its running.

Also bothered me that the plug wires I made did not have boots, so I just went ahead and purchased another set of superconductor 8.5mm wires with the boots already installed.  For one thing, the boots made it a Heck of a lot easier to attach to the plugs.  On the down side, they are no longer custom sized, so the wires are a little longer than I would like.  either way, I feel better on this point.

Pilot bushing is in the freezer (to shrink it down) and I hope to have everything buttoned up and back in the car by Saturday or Sunday.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on November 20, 2014, 10:58:17 AM
I think you should try to do better on that gap between the bottom of the pan and the oil pickup.  You will definitely not have 8" of oil over the pickup when the engine is running, more like 2" or less, and if you accelerate or go around a corner the oil will slosh around, and your oil pump will start sucking air.

Suggest you take the tube off and take it somewhere that has an oxy-acetylene torch, heat the tube up cherry red, and bend it down a little bit.  That's probably all you'll need to do...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 20, 2014, 12:34:32 PM
Ill see what I can do this weekend.  I would imagine it wouldn't have to move that much at all to get from .7 to .25, so maybe a combo of the washer and bending the tube clost to the screened pick up end(instead of trying to bend the tab to get more reach) will work.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on November 20, 2014, 05:18:27 PM
I've always just heated the tube itself up, and bent it a little.  As long as you don't go too crazy you won't kink it or anything...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 21, 2014, 09:50:29 AM
Yea I will use a little torch this weekend and put a small bend on it.  I have the 1st oil pan gasket and the Windage tray sealer curing.  Then I will be able to lay the 2nd gasket (Dry) and get an exact measurement that I can use to start heating and bending.  I am using the clay ball technique and measuring it with a set of digital calipers.  I will update later this weekend.

 :D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 21, 2014, 01:14:13 PM
Oh - OK.  That sounds fine Jay.  Jason, you may want to LocTite that bolt that you've put the washer on.  It will be more susceptible to loosening from vibration.

This was a good idea.  I used blue Loctite on the nut threads and the stud threads before I snugged it down.  I also used blue Loctite on the bolts that bolt the pickup to the housing and also on the bolts that hold the pump to the block.

Thanks
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 21, 2014, 08:41:39 PM
Yeah!! Small victory... 1/4" of clearance between pan and pickup  all sealed up and drying until tomorrow
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on November 21, 2014, 08:43:08 PM
How'd you get there Jason?
Congrats
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 22, 2014, 09:45:50 AM
Small amount of heating and finagling. Lol
Time to install clutch, flywheel, bellhousing and spacer and reinstall !!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 22, 2014, 08:23:44 PM
progress!  Installed the billet Fly wheel, backing plate, pilot bushing, clutch ( actually found out its a mcleod twin clutch!) and the bell housing. Then was able to get the engine back into the car!  Tomorrow i will be measuring for throw out bearing clearance and installing the EFI throttle bodies and hood!

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/015F1306-08A3-4206-8200-AE8BCA1A107E_zpskcyfyyoa.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/015F1306-08A3-4206-8200-AE8BCA1A107E_zpskcyfyyoa.jpg.html)
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/F15E4615-81D2-4D30-A39A-777219CFDF9C_zpsgdcepbhj.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/F15E4615-81D2-4D30-A39A-777219CFDF9C_zpsgdcepbhj.jpg.html)

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on November 22, 2014, 09:34:23 PM
Nice work Jason, incredible car!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 23, 2014, 12:52:12 PM
EFI anyone????  Lol. Looks big, but just clears the stock hood!  Sorry for the 1st pictures "Fuzziness", but I take these photos with my phone.  Anyway, not in these pictures are the aircleaners hold down knobs.  They also fit under the stock hood, but touch the thermal matting attached to the underside of the hood.  Also, the aircleaner is a bit long, so I had to take a cresent shape out of the cowl lip (plastic and thin metal).  Only about 1 inch so the cleaner would not interfere.  Also when I bolt up the transmission, the engine will rotate forward slightly too, so I should be set with clearance!



(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/DA13FA15-7A1E-4BF1-96BE-21DC37E3FED8_zps3npq4ae8.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/DA13FA15-7A1E-4BF1-96BE-21DC37E3FED8_zps3npq4ae8.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/E8F351F0-2E96-470B-9EE6-F6A54FD89BA6_zpsikdktxod.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/E8F351F0-2E96-470B-9EE6-F6A54FD89BA6_zpsikdktxod.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 23, 2014, 08:57:24 PM
Another bump...  Now that the radiator is in, Stock fan and shroud do not fit. Unfortunately, power steering resevoir and coolant overflow tank mount to it.  Long story short, i think i will cut off the top of the fan shroud and attach that, and install a 16" low profile fan?  Hopefully this should solve the problem.  I was also thinking I can get a reversible fan, and mount it to the grill side of the radiator.  I think I will only go that route if I run into clearance issues with a low profile/ slim fan.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 24, 2014, 10:45:09 AM
OK, so have been thinking and thinking about the hydraulic throw out bearing for this project.  I was just going to swap over the OEM unit from the Tremec 3630 I took out of the saleen, but I will  need shims (for sure) and its got like 75,000 miles on it already, and its one of those annoying compression fittings .....  Whatever.

I decided to bite the bullet (sort of speak) and get a RAM hydraulic clutch unit.  The package I purchased comes with a shim kit (as well as a ship plate of 1.00") that may or may not be needed.  I figure that I can measure, shim and install all at one time rather than have to find or make shims for an OEM unit.  This unit also has a bleeder fitting which should make bleeding the system a snap.

So, finally, once this arrives and I get it measured up and installed, I am going to order the driveshaft..... and have the car brought to an exhaust shop so they can build me a set of headers.

THEN DONE!  easily said, but I still need to get it running (for which I will need the headers)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on November 24, 2014, 12:33:01 PM
Careful about that, "THEN DONE" Jason.
Getting everything together is usually the easy part.
The details are what nip you in the budd. :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 24, 2014, 04:35:32 PM
Yea I know  LOL  "Then done" encompasses running a fuel return line, setting up fuel regulator, lengthening some of the wires in the stock wiring harness to reach the new locations of the Senders/sensors, wrapping up all of the unused pigtails in electrical tape (ones like refrigerant sensors, Cam sensors, 8 separate feul injectors, etc......

Also, since I went with a stock set of MSD plug wires with the boots already installed (as you can see from the pictures), I have a birds nest of plug wires due to the extra length....  I will want to get those in some sort of order.....

so..... "Then done".... means for today I guess  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 26, 2014, 09:09:18 AM
OK small update.  I didn't want anyone to think I lost interest and just gave up  LOL

In order to measure for the throw out bearing clearance, there were a few measurements that were needed (there are a few websites, including RAM clutches, that show you which measurements are needed.  After reading them, I almost (ALMOST) pooped a little.  One of the measurements was from the block surface to the mounting surface of the crankshaft  (where the flywheel bolts on)....  Well after getting everything including the bell housing torqued to spec...  I thought I was going to have to crawl under the car and pull everything off again to measure.  Fortunately, while doing a little internet sleuthing, I came across Speedwaymotors tool section and found a nifty little gadget.  I attached a picture below, but its as simple as measuring down from the back of the bell housing, and then measuring from the trans to the surface of the bearing (compressed).....  Should arrive by Friday.  Also, USPS says the Ram throw out bearing kit is arriving today and should be there when I get home  !

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/91381090_L_zps87b28892.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/91381090_L_zps87b28892.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/913810901_L_zps18e498c7.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/913810901_L_zps18e498c7.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/913810902_L_zps5eb59cdc.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/913810902_L_zps5eb59cdc.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 08, 2014, 10:23:53 AM
OK boys!  Back from vacation and ready to get moving.  The Friday before I left, I got my throw out bearing fitment tool from speedway motorsports (Pictured above) as well as the RAM throw out bearing kit with all of the accessories that should make this a 1 stop shopping kind of install.  Car is back up on the 12 ton jack stands, and the transmission is out of the box (Cant wait to throw out that huge box and wooden pallet its sitting on.... space sucker in a 2 car garage.

Tonight I am going to bolt on the aluminum custom spacer to the bell housing using their supplied bolts as well as try and clean and re-grease the throw out bearing so I can be sure the O-rings are nice and lubed.  hopefully I can snap a few photos from the underside  :0)

Good to be back!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 09, 2014, 04:42:54 PM
Just purchased all the fittings to get the fuel line hooked up.  Ford has this funky fuel injection fuel line disconnect (the one that needs the special tool to disconnect... much like the AC line fittings).  Luckily Jegs sells the same fittings that will connect to a 3/8 in hose.  I didn't know which one was which... supply side or return side, so I purchased both (as I assume I will use both since the FAST EFI needs a return line run.  I also got about 25' of fuel line hose (incase I need to redo the supply side in addition to the return).  Wanted to get these items on their way to me as I work on the transmission.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 10, 2014, 02:57:24 PM
Not a huge update, but went ahead and purchased the FAST EFI fuel pressure regulator with the FAST Fuel pressure gauge.  EFI system says that the Fuel pressure needs to be set at 45 psi.  Will Probably end up mounting it on the passenger side fire wall (somewhere near the "Saleen" manufacturer plate.  Then Run a return line back to the fuel tank.  Not sure if the Saleen fuel pump will be able to handle the cammer, but I will try it out.  May end up replacing it anyway, as I don't believe the Saleen's EFI was set up for a return fuel line......  Have to do some research (in addition to not seeing a return line when I took the OEM engine out!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 10, 2014, 03:58:36 PM
OK  LOL  research done.  2005 Saleen S281 had a returnless fuel system.  What it looks like is I will need to go with a direct replacement rather than something fancy from Jegs since I want the stock wiring harness to work.  I found one that looks perfect, but it looks like I will need 2 new fuel pumps as well as I don't think swapping the OEM ones will be able to keep up with the horsepower ( In my head I am thinking like 600 - 625 HP since I didn't port the heads and manifold....  )

http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/products/DivisonX-S197-Dual-Pump-Return-Style-Fuel-Hat-Manifold.html
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 14, 2014, 10:15:27 AM
Ok, problem (Yet again!)...  Was super siked this weekend to get the transmission hooked up and get this car off to the exhaust shop to get its manifold....  Unfortunately, after getting the throw out bearing spacing set up, and the various spacers, mounts and etc bolted and torqued...  I got the transmission under the car and ready to jack it up and bolt it in.

Then, I realize that they sent me a twin disk clutch, but with the wrong number of splines!  The transmission is 26 spline, and the invoice said they sent me a 26 spline clutch, but there are only 10.  Honestly I was pissed.  I am tired of installing and uninstalling, and at this point I just wanted a break.

Anyway, I am contacting Modern Driveline to see how we can get this fixed (since I dont have the clutch box anymore).  Either way I need the right disks before I can do anything.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on December 14, 2014, 05:41:30 PM
Getting the wrong parts is always a pain; sorry to hear about the trouble.  Stick with it, Jason, you'll get through it...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 14, 2014, 11:24:20 PM
thanks jay. I will let you all know the outcome with the clutch disks tomorrow. Anyway, here are pictures of the Tremec T56 XL with the RAM hydraulic throw out bearing.  Needed 2 shims to get it to 0.200 clearance   

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/4A8E8EEA-2D14-4FE9-91F4-65675FB29BF6_zpshm3xqelt.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/4A8E8EEA-2D14-4FE9-91F4-65675FB29BF6_zpshm3xqelt.jpg.html)
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/F991F69C-34DD-4FF9-9E66-42CB5321AB79_zpskw6nxs9c.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/F991F69C-34DD-4FF9-9E66-42CB5321AB79_zpskw6nxs9c.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 15, 2014, 10:28:59 AM
Hey All.  Quick update as I am swamped today at work.  Called Modern Driveline just now.  Wasn't able to speak to Paul (as it is still early and they were just opening), but I spoke with Bruce (I believe he is the owner).  Explained my situation, and he very calmly said "no problem", I will get them to send you the right one (From Mcleod) and you can just box up the incorrect one and send it back.  He said its really odd , but not unheard of.  Honestly I like doing business with these guys.  Yes, I could have done without the error, but first it was drop shipped (so technically not their error) and second, I will fit the starter while changing out the clutch.  On the quicktime for an FE, there is no removable window to check the starter gear mesh, so you have to remove the bell housing.   We will get through this and move on to the next.  LOL

Anyway, back to work.  Happy Holidays everyone!!!!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 17, 2014, 09:19:45 AM
New clutch discs will arrive Friday....  Last night I went back into the garage as the throw out bearing "issue" was bothering me.  When I got the Hydraulic bearing kit, the movement of the cylinder was very difficult.  I wasn't sure if this was normal or if it was stuck.  Either way, I thought it best to just pull it apart, clean it, replace the O-rings and scrapers, and put it all back together.  There was an instructional video from RAM on youtube that walked me through it, and when I was done....  "Like Butt'a". Cylinder now moves back and forth effortlessly. Now I am glad I took the time to do that.  This whole kit was on a display at a speed shop.  was installed on a transmission in the showroom, but never into a working vehicle.  My guess is that the O rings just got a little dried out from not having hydraulic fluid running over them.  Would have been a pain in the Arse once the transmission was installed and now I am sure its new, lubed, and fresh!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 17, 2014, 10:58:05 PM
Got the FAST fuel pressure regulator with gauge all put together and ready to install on the firewall!
1 inlet, 1 plug, 1 outlet, and 1 manifold vacuum fitting
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/DFB11FB6-FC90-41B8-B301-BCFD7D3EBFEF_zpspcemiqus.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/DFB11FB6-FC90-41B8-B301-BCFD7D3EBFEF_zpspcemiqus.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 20, 2014, 02:14:11 PM
Ok, Friday, the correct 26 spline clutch discs came. Got the 10 splines out, new ones in, and everything torqued back down to 35 ft/lbs. Had to remeasure for throw out bearing travel again, and now ready to install the transmission. As soon as the holidays are over, i will bolt it up and get the car off to get exhaust manifold made!  Happy Holidays everyone
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on December 21, 2014, 12:49:46 PM
Good luck Jason!  Now the fun part begins.  Just be ready for lots of little PITA issues that the guys here will help you through.

My father-in-law is an ex-Boeing director, and he still consults on the International Space Station.  He likes to say, "Hardware is the greatest teacher".

You're (and we're) going to learn a few things before this is done!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 29, 2014, 10:07:28 AM
Yes sir!  PITA seems to be my specialty.  Before hoisting up the transmission, I decided to mount the starter (I may have already mentioned this).  Since the bell housing does NOT have a removable window to see the teeth engage, I made a call to Lakewood (I think they purchased Quicktime).  I was told that as long as I use a FE engine specific starter, it should be good to go.  Seeing as how I am knee deep in the learning experience, I kept the shims in a readily accessable spot in case this advise did not hold true.  I was able to take depth measurements with a caliper while holding the starter flush to the block and it seems as though I fall right at 3/4" (which is in range according to the directions).

I needed to do a little digging on Google in order to find a correct wiring diagram as there are 2 wires off of the existing OEM harness for the Modular 4.6 starter.  There is a thick red wire (which is the hot wire to the battery), and then there was a fairly thick black wire (which I originally thought was a Ground wire.  Since I wasn't sure, I did attach it.  After a little digging, I see now that it's the trigger wire.  The Modular 4.6 starter only has 2 attachment points on the back of the starter.  The MSD Ignition 5093, has 3.  So I know now that the black wire from my harness needs to be attached to the trigger lead on the MSD starter.

Now the RAM hydraulic slave cylinder that I just finished changing out the O rings on says that it is only to be used to natural hydraulic fluid (Not synthetic of any kind).  Since I am unsure if Saleen used synthetic, I am just going to buy some Natural Hydraulic fluid and flush the system out before I attach.  Again, I figure a $4.00 bottle of fluid will save me time and aggravation later.

After the transmission is installed, things on the "To Do" list are as follows:

-Send car out to have custom headers made.
-Reverse mount "push" fan (16") to be installed on the front side of radiator due to clearance issues
- extend (solder) wires on stock Saleen wiring harness to reach new points of attachment (Cylinder head temperature sensor, oil pressure sensor (This one may not need extension), Alternator plug.
-install "DivisionX" return feed fuel pump-hat setup.  This has dual fuel pumps as well as a fuel return port for the EFI system.  then run the new fuel line I purchased from the hat to the "throttle bodies" and then from the FAST Fuel regulator to the return port on the hat again.
-Order and install driveshaft.
-Find someone (RadioShack?) to assemble the circuit board the engineering professor down here at the University of Miami designed for me so that the Tachometer in the Saleen will work off of the MSD Tack out signal.
-Install a throttle cable to the stock pedal (since the Saleen had an electronic throttle prior to its transplant!)

That should complete the list.  I am sure there will be hiccups along the way on the items above, so even though its a small list, it should keep me occupied. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on January 05, 2015, 04:19:39 PM
OK boys.....  I have been delayed due to holiday travel obligations, but last night I got to return to the garage for "tinkering".  I have been measuring and remeasuring the spacing for the throw out bearing.  Last night, I measured another 2 times to be sure.

I went ahead and purchased a transmission jack from Harbor freight.  A little bit of a waste since I hopefully will only need to use it 1 time, but it will make me feel less weary installing it.  Oddly, the Tremec 3630 5 speed that came out of the Saleen (even still full of transmission fluid) was sort of light (Maybe 60 lbs).  The Tremec T56XL 6 speed Viper transmission is a whole other animal.  I would guess 100lbs?  So having a transmission jack that cradles the transmission as I line it up will make life a ton easier.

Also, Last night I drained the hydraulic fluid from the master cylinder.  I would venture a guess that Saleen uses some Synthetic hydraulic fluid in their set up, but the Ram hydraulic throw out bearing directions insist on "Conventional-Non synthetic DOT 3 Fluid" as to not eat up the Orings inside the cylinder.  I am going to buy an extra bottle of the Conventional, fill the clutch cylinder and pump the clutch pedal a few times to flush out the old.  Then I can disconnect the hydraulic line from under the hood(driver side) so the New braided steel one can take its place.  Luckily RAM throw out bearings come with an easy to use 2nd line off of the throw out bearing that makes bleeding the system a snap.

I also took the liberty last night of connecting the "signal wire " to the starter.  MSD starters supply a crimp fitting with heat shrink around it for the signal wire, but the wire on the stock saleen wire harness is quite a bit thicker, so I just removed the screw that holds the crimp fitting on, put the stock thick signal wire on and then screwed the crimp fitting back on.  Almost as if I was using the crimp fitting as a washer for the thicker signal wire.

I was also able to connect the Oil pressure sensor to its related plug in the harness.  Since it is roughly located on the same side and the same location as the stock 4.6 Motor, the wire was the correct length.

Given that bit of luck, the Coolant temp sensor (Cylinder head temp sensor) is now located in the front of the intake manifold (near the distributor) rather than the rear of the block as it was in the Stock motor.  These wires will need to be elongated so the wiring harness plug will reach. 

The alternator might be ok.  On the stock 4.6, the alternator is mounted at the center/top of the block.  The wires seem long enough to connect to the harness and I will prob. do that tonight.

Other than that, the Transmission Jack comes in on Tuesday.  I did a quick measurement and even though it was an engine swap, and a different bell housing, and a custom bell housing spacer to account for the long input shaft on the Viper trans...... The shifter measures out perfectly to go right where it needs to go in the transmission tunnel.....   
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on January 06, 2015, 09:50:59 AM
Last night back into the garage.  As mentioned before, I wanted to get the 3G alternator I installed hooked up to the 6G wiring harness in the Saleen.  Jegs sells a harness adapter to hook a 3G case alternator to a 6G harness.  LUCKILY..... with the length of the adapter harness from jegs, the wires were just perfectly long enough to reach the position of the alternator on the Cammer engine.  I say luckily because I really did not want to "splice in" to the alternator wiring to make it longer.  So now......  I have the Starter Hooked up (to the factory harness), I have the Oil Pressure sensor hooked up (to the factory harness), I have the alternator hooked up (To the factory Harness) and tonight the Transmission Jack comes so I can finally get that heavy monster installed!

I will take photos from under the car as soon as I have her installed!  I know these posts are boring as all "get out" without pictures!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on January 07, 2015, 05:11:00 PM
OK transmission jack from Harbor freight came in last night and transmission is on it and strapped down.  As it sits now, the car will have to be raised higher on the 4 jack stands in order for there to be clearance enough to roll the transmission under the car.  I am going to slowly inch the front and back up (Slowly because my floor jack is starting to run out of reach since the car is up on 12 ton jack stands front and back.  After measuring the throw out bearing clearance like 10 times over the last few weeks, I am 1000% sure I have 0.002 clearance between the bearing surface and the clutch fingers.  All of the old hydraulic fluid has been drained out of the master clutch cylinder, and I have conventional (non synthetic as per the RAM tech people) ready to refill.

:0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on January 07, 2015, 05:40:31 PM
Is 0.002" clearance the required amount?
That is pretty tight for a clutch bearing.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on January 08, 2015, 02:48:30 PM
And you would be totally correct! HAHAHAHA  It's 0.200.......  For a twin disk McLeod.    I was actually in a daydream like state this morning in on my morning commute wondering how the throw out bearing could have the same distance from the fingers as clearance on some Main cap bearings.  LOL  By the end of the commute, I just knew I had put the decimal in the wrong spot.

To be a little more descriptive, the suggested clearance is 2 of the marks on the tool I purchased from speedway motors (A picture of it is on the previous page).
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Lenz on January 08, 2015, 03:41:06 PM
Ah yes, the old Harbor Freight transmission jack.  I picked one up at our local outlet for use on the Gal last year, works great.  Time was I'd lay under the vehicle and bench a manual into place but that was on another planet a long time ago... :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on January 09, 2015, 12:30:15 PM
So disappointing update.  Jacked the car up even higher on the jackstands so I could wheel the transmission mounted on top of the Transmission Jack.  Then spent almost 2 hours on my back thinking of different angles in which I could lift, shake, shimmy, wiggle the darn transmission to get it to mount flush.  No luck.  Oddly enough, the splines on the input shaft align fine with the splines on the clutch discs, but it would seem the trouble is getting the input shaft nose to align with the pilot bushing.....  After 2 hours, I was dirty and tired, so I quit for the night.

Thinking back on it, I measured everything (clearance wise) on the trans so there is definitely no interference at all.  Plus, I can see everything through the clutch fork hole, and there is plenty of room. 

PLus I took the digital calipers and measured the input shaft.... then measured the plastic alighment tool that was used to keep everything aligned while torqueing....  and they are both the same measurement.  I am going to try unbolting the clutch one more time and using the alignment tool again to keep it all in place.  The only think I can think of is that possibly its the itty-bittiest bit out of alignment.... enough for the plastic tool to fit in, but not the metal input shaft?  I will keep at it
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: XR7 on January 09, 2015, 01:25:24 PM
They can be a bitch to slide in sometimes... I have "stabbed" 4 speeds many times and sometimes they go in like butter and other times you fight it. I started using an old input shaft to line up the discs versus the short plastic tool. Even with steel splines and the extra length, you can still wiggle it up and down and side to side some... I try to center that up and then tighten the p/p bolts evenly.

I would give it another go before taking the bell off, re-aligning the discs, etc. If you can get a helper, it does help to have someone turn the engine over 90 or 180* while you are trying to push it in that final amount "home". If you have no help, just turn the engine 90 and/or 180* and try again.

If you have a roller bearing in the crank pilot, they can be tight to the input, if you end up lowering the trans, take a look a the end of the input shaft (pilot end). Sometimes those are "sharp" and do not have much of a taper or radius, so it has to be perfect to go in. My Toploader's always went in like butter, and when I had to fight "stabbing" the Jerico in the first couple times, I looked closer (at both) and saw the difference there on the end. I took a die grinder with a small disc and tapered the end 45* or so, maybe 1/8" or less back, and it went in much easier from then on...  ;)

Good luck!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on January 09, 2015, 01:25:37 PM
When slipping in a gear box Especially an all new setup it is going to take a really
push to get it to go.
Now this is always considered taboo but once you get a small start in the hole get a couple of
bolts in and start wiggling the box in and VERY slowly start a draw in with the bolts.
The idea is to work the box in very slowly and NOT break off an ear.
Lube up the bolts also so they turn that much easier.   

Edit: this is assuming you did a test fit before while it was hanging on a chain?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cammerfe on January 11, 2015, 03:16:06 PM
Do whatever it takes, beforehand, to be able to put the engine and trans together and then put the whole works in as a unit. I've f***ed around for hours in my younger days trying to get the engine and trans to mate after one or the other was already in the car.

Never again.

KS
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on January 11, 2015, 03:53:36 PM
GOT IT!!!!!!!  OK so I was pretty confident that everything was aligned perfectly.  the alignment tool for the Clutch discs even made a "pop" sound when you pulled it out (due to the suction being broken when it came out of the pilot bushing).  However, my buddy over there at Modern Driveline said that there has to be almost NO resistance at all.  The tool should literally push in and out like there is nothing touching it.

So Friday night, I crawled back under the car and tool off the starter, bell housing, Pressure plate and top disc.  I left the back of the clutch as well as the bottom clutch disc on the flywheel.  Then I put in the alignment took, and put the top disc back on and placed the pressure plate portion of the clutch back on (but did not tighten it down).  Then I kept doing tiny adjustments to the alignment tool (while holding the pressure plate on with the other hand to apply pressure.  When I got it so that there was almost no resistance what so ever on the tool, I put as much pressure as I could with one of my hands on the pressure plate, and started putting the nuts back on with the other hand.  Once I got all the nuts on as tight as I could by hand, I gently tested the alignment took to make sure I was still at almost no resistance.  Then I torqued them back down in the star pattern suggested in the directions to a final pressure of 35 Ft/Lbs.  After final torque, I again tested the alignment tool.... and surely enough, we were still at NO resistance!

Then I had to torque the bellhousing back on (also at a final torque of 35 ft/lbs) as well as bolt the starter back up.

Then the moment of truth....  Got the transmission up into place with the custom spacer on the front....  made sure it looked like it was centered and that the alignment dowels on the spacer lined up with the holes in the bell housing..... and within 2 minutes of pushing..... I heard the metal clap of it all mating up.!!!  I don't think I have ever been so happy!  HAHAHA

I figured while I was already down there and dirty... I might as well disconnect the stock hydraulic clutch line (which I had a plastic bag and rubber bands on the end so that it wasn't dripping hydraulic fluid on the floor)... and reattach the braided metal hydraulic line from the RAM throw out bearing.  Then I filled the reservoir up with conventional heavy duty DOT3 hydraulic fluid and asked my wife to pump the clutch while I used the bleeder line below to bleed out the air.  Within 3 pumps, I had all the air out, and asked the wife to push the petal all the way to the floor a few times so I could have a look inside the Bellhousing (where the clutch fork usually goes) to get a sense of the bearing travel.  All looked perfect.  When she let off the clutch, it released all the pressure off of the fingers, and when she pushed it to the floor, it looked like it pushed the fingers in all the way without bottoming out.!!!

Next on the list is getting the transmission reverse lock out module wired up, before I get her down off the jack stands, load her on a trailer, and get her over to get exhaust manifolds made up!

Pictured below is a picture of the T56XL Viper transmission with the custom spacer and bell housing (all mounted up), Then the clearest picture I could take inside the bell housing showing the RAM hydraulic clutch, and finally the tremec 6 speed ball and kit with the center console reinstalled......  Looks awesome.


(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/B6FA2FB6-87BB-4510-ABB4-5071A6322BDE_zps8izkxxtk.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/B6FA2FB6-87BB-4510-ABB4-5071A6322BDE_zps8izkxxtk.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/4957FA83-6C33-48B3-A9BE-F60888884F19_zpswph7ykkb.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/4957FA83-6C33-48B3-A9BE-F60888884F19_zpswph7ykkb.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/C5F8FAD0-3209-4E55-A730-15586B588C5E_zpsfvrosiju.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/C5F8FAD0-3209-4E55-A730-15586B588C5E_zpsfvrosiju.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on January 14, 2015, 11:10:51 AM
Holy hell!!!  Custom headers are expensive.  So far $2,700.00 is the quote.  I called around to a few places that wouldn't give a price..... Most were an hour or 2 away.  Didn't get a good feeling.  Then I called Kooks headers in North Carolina.  They are a lot more respectable, but they need the car shipped up to them (which will be in addition to the $2700.00 they would charge for the headers.  Then I called a place that is literally 2 minutes from my house (Never knew it existed).  Guy gave me a price of $2,700.00 but followed it up with....  I have to charge you so that its worth it for me.  said he would need it for a week.  Wow, I am in the wring business (again).  I have been thinking that I should just buy a set of 2011 Shelby GT500 headers.  I believe the only difference in the exhaust from a 2005 Saleen (Mustang GT) and a 2011 Shelby GT500 is the primary tubes...  Shelby uses 1 7/8th Primary.....  That was as close to 2" as I could find.  Then I was thinking I would cut off the flange as well as 3-4 inches of the tubes, bolt up the SOHC flanges, and lightly tack weld the cut off headers to the flange (maybe with 1/2" square tubing?)  then I can take them back out, bring them over to the welding table, and route fresh 1 7/8" pipe from where I cut off into each exhaust port on the flange.

What is they consensus here?????  Would I be better off just paying someone 2700.00 to do it custom?  Or is there any reason adapting an existing mustang header would not work?  I know the exhaust port spacing between a 4.6 modular and a 427 FE is way different (FE is spaced out way more).  Thoughts?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on January 14, 2015, 11:54:44 AM
That is way, way too much money for custom headers if you ask me.  Kind of like the $10,000 paint job.  When I started getting quotes like that for getting my cars painted, I bought a paint booth ($4800) and a paint gun and some bodywork equipment (another $1000) and learned to do it myself.

Jason, you could do something similar.  If you don't have one already, get yourself a cheap bandsaw, or maybe even use a hacksaw, and the buy the mandrel bent exhaust tubing from summit, plus a couple of collectors.  If you got the bandsaw you might have a total of $600 in the project, including the tubes and collectors.  There are also outfits that make little sleeves that you can use to piece the cut tubes together.  You could cut and fit the whole set of headers together, and bring it to someone to weld up for you.  Or you could add another $700 or so in cost, buy an oxy-acetylene torch setup and bottles, and learn to weld it yourself.

I'm self-taught on everything I do, and although the results are not at a really good professional level at first, the skills you develop along the way are invaluable, and if you work hard enough at it, you will get good results from the start.  Also, I've seen a lot of "professional" results that aren't that hot, and I hate paying exorbitant prices for work like building headers, paint jobs, chassis work, whatever.

You took on building the motor yourself, which is quite an accomplishment.  Building the headers will be easier - Jay

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: fastback 427 on January 14, 2015, 12:18:10 PM
I agree 100%. Pay yourself the 100$ an hour. Take your exhaust gasket and use it as a template for flanges. Shouldn't cost too much to get them water jetted. Buy a universal header kit with some extra bends. You obviously have patience, so I think this would be fun and worthwhile project. Also look at the member projects section here and there is a nice set of headers being built.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on January 14, 2015, 12:20:20 PM
Thanks Jay.  I think I am almost 100 % sure I am going to buy a set of headers (I just found Kooks has plain mild steel ones with 2 1/8 primaries and 3" out.) , cut off the flange and weld on my own SOHC flange when I have the angle right.  My father has a band saw I think and I have a MIG welder (hence looking for mild steel and not stainless).  Hopefully not that big a deal.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on January 14, 2015, 03:12:39 PM
OK .... Here we go.  Rather than spending the $2,700.00 and leaving my car somewhere with strangers here in S. Florida (Capital of Auto theft).....  I did some digging.  What I ended up with is this (Pictured Below).  These are Hedman headers for a Ford 460.  Honestly I don't care that they are for a 460, because it was just the tube measurements I was looking for!  These babies have 2" primaries....and not only that, but if you look closely in the pictures, they have an "upturned" exhaust flange....  This is because these are supposed to bolt up and be routed out the fender flares.....  but for my luck (since the 427 SOHC exhause ports are upturned given the angle of the heads, I should be able to..... with a little cutting, tacking, and etc.  make these work.  They are also plain steel so I will be able to weld on them with my MIG.

In addition, since I installed an AJE front K member, I will have extra wiggle room for the install.

Then, since these are long tube headers and the headers that came off of the 4.6 Modular were shorty headers....  I can cut back the existing X pipe and weld on the Ball and socket Flange (it says it comes with).  Oddly enough, the Saleen had "4" O2 sensors!!!  2 were up where the headers met the X pipe and 2 are back beside the trans before the actual Pipes meet at the X.  I should still be able to utilize one of these for the FAST EZ EFI O2 sensor (Since I will have to cut back the stock X pipe to accept the long tube headers).

I will keep you posted!!!  They are on their way (Free Shipping@!)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/hed-85651_zpsc560cbd4.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/hed-85651_zpsc560cbd4.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on January 15, 2015, 02:38:49 AM
Seems you would be really lucky if those headers will snake out at the right places. Still gives you a starting point I guess.
You can easily weld stainless with your mig. I do it all the time, you just need the stainless wire and some stainless wire brushes for cleaning the areas to weld. Some people use a tri-mix gas with helium, some don't, but it will weld fine either way. You do have to experiment a bit with feed and gas settings though.

$2700 for custom headers?....I'm in the wrong business. They all say it'll take them a week, and they'll have $300-$400 in pipe and flanges, max. That's a pretty darn good profit margin for a weeks work ???
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on January 15, 2015, 09:33:49 AM
Tell me about it!  Yea I am hoping that these headers will be a starting point (I am not expecting them to line up perfectly ).  I crawled under there last night to take a look, and with the AJE tubular cross member, I have quite a bit more space.  The only Hiccup I see would be the steering shaft.  Its kinda just "There" and in the way.  We will see whats what when they arrive, and if they are totally way off, then I will just return them.

Other wise I can cut a section out here and there and replace with bends to make them fit.

:0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on January 16, 2015, 11:12:27 PM
Ok. Headers arrived today and not even close!  But what we do have not is a brand new donor for custom headers  i am going to cut them both off evenly at about 8 inches above the collectors.  I will then attach the collectors to the stock x pipe, use the pieces of 2" tubing between where I cut them and the flange to start snaking my way to the SOHC flange. I think i have enough space to tack weld as I go, but not a whole lot of room in there. Hopefully this will be fun!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on January 16, 2015, 11:32:29 PM
Even a cheap 14 inch chop saw will pay for itself for this job as well as any exhaust work.  The ability to cut cleanly is worth its weight in gold.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on January 17, 2015, 04:40:07 PM
Even a cheap 14 inch chop saw will pay for itself for this job as well as any exhaust work.  The ability to cut cleanly is worth its weight in gold.

That's exactly what I use. Sometimes it's a bit of a pain to hold the pipe just right, but like Ross said, a clean flat cut is definitely worth it for mating up and welding. I think it's much easier and faster to work with than a bandsaw.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Drew Pojedinec on January 17, 2015, 06:04:25 PM
Not headers, but I've done exhaust with just mandrel bends, a chop saw and a mig machine.
Sure, it wasn't as pretty as a pro, but that is why they sell die grinders and carbide burs.....
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on January 18, 2015, 09:41:20 AM
Have to disagree with you on the band saw v chop saw.
In my small shed I have a really old King 93 x 3/4 band saw with a good coolant pump and I can get that thing to
chop just about anything nice and square.
The chop saw just creates grinding dust and sparks which by the way is one of the major reasons
why guys burn their garages down. :P
 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: NewFalconOwner on January 18, 2015, 10:10:38 AM
i built my headers myself,, spent about 200 in 1-7/8" u and j bends and a pair of collectors,  and pieced it all together. used a chop saw, tuck tape and grinder..

(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff267/new_falcon_owner/falcon/005_zpsf5f8aa39.jpg)

(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff267/new_falcon_owner/falcon/004-1_zps2637f903.jpg)

(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff267/new_falcon_owner/falcon/004-1.jpg)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on January 18, 2015, 10:12:14 AM
All the tools are good, more are better :)

However, not all chop saws will flood your garage with sparks, just like all band saws aren't liquid cooled!  Mine has a bag that catches most of it

Regardless, anything that cuts straight works.  Including a guy who knows how to use a hacksaw, but I really like my 14 inch chop with miter deck for quick exhaust cuts.  Band saw would work too, but not sure how much it costs for a decent one, I assume when you go from wood to metal and need room for 2-3 inch pipes, things get expensive.

I will say though, talking about fire is extremely important.  My family lost a 16 bay garage in the late 80s, I was in high school and personally lost a 71 GTO clone that was ready for paint, but my father lost his business for a few years.  Aluminum tools were literally melted in the tool boxes, our 68 F100 4x4 sunk in the pit, axle housing literally folded into the pit from the heat.  We'll never know exactly what started it, but the day prior we had an employee extending the frame to install an oil tank on a dump truck chassis.  Lot's of grinding and welding, so we assume that is what happened.  I don't even let Yankee Candles stay unattended anymore...better be careful, especially those in small garages
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: babybolt on January 18, 2015, 11:25:20 AM
When I was much younger I built a set of tri-y headers using only a hacksaw, tubing cutter, small benchtop grinder and a gas welding setup - using a two sets of cutup aftermarket headers and some bends from JC Whitney. 

Several years ago a guy who does great work in Michigan gave me a quote of $1200 for custom made headers, $1500 for stainless.  And not much more to finish the system to the back of the car.  He had just finished a set for a real SOHC drag car.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on January 20, 2015, 09:38:52 AM
Thanks everyone.  I definitely agree that a clean cut (joint) will make all the difference.  I did have one question..... and I'm not sure if this is common knowledge of not.  Since I am going to be taking these header tubes on the car as I go, does the car have to be sitting on it rubber tires (due to the electric current from the welder?)  or is leaving it on Jack stands ok?  I wasn't sure if the Jack stands would ground out the car.....  I have an idea how a MIG welder works, but wasn't sure about welding on the car while on stands (given all of the electric components on this thing).

Any advice?

Thanks
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on January 20, 2015, 11:14:56 AM
You can weld with the car on jackstands.  The current from the welder will flow from the torch to the ground clamp of the welder.  I'd recommend disconnecting the battery cables, and putting the ground clamp of the welder close to the spot you are welding.  Other than that, you should be just fine.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on January 20, 2015, 12:47:08 PM
Perfect!  The battery has been totally removed and I will clamp the ground from the welder to the metal tube I am tacking.  Getting excited.  Was able to torque the transmission with the correct bolts and washers to 35 ft lbs as well as torque the trans cross member to 46 ft lbs (as directed by Tremec) and the transmission to the cross member at 45 ft lbs (as directed by tremec).

I can also now measure for the driveshaft and get that ordered, but I need to get the car lowered onto all 4 wheels, while still keeping it up high enough for me to slide under it and measure.  Saleen has about 2" of ground clearance with the body kits when they are sitting on their wheels. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Drew Pojedinec on January 20, 2015, 09:36:46 PM
jacks under the front and two jacks under the rear end is sufficient for measuring a driveshaft.  Lil trickier getting the angles perfect later, but worry about that later.

Scotia,
We all weld, grind, chop etc in our garages.  Any of these things can easily start a fire.  Using a bandsaw with a coolant pump isn't an alternative to following fire prevention procedure.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on January 23, 2015, 12:58:11 PM
OK I just printed out the Drive shaft measurement/Order form.  Will be getting the measurements for the order this weekend.  Also just purchased the fuel hat for a return line system.  This product is made by "Division X" and I consider myself lucky.  From what it seems, none of these newer mustangs are built with a fuel return option EFI.  So there is no such thing as a return port on a OEM fuel hat.  Luckily this company makes a direct replacement and even the wiring harness to ensure it works well with the ECM and gauges.  Now I can go from the Tank....to the EFI, to the regulator, and then back to the tank....  plus it comes with 2 fuel pumps good up to 1000 HP.  Pictured below:

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/s197hat_zpstrlk6mww.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/s197hat_zpstrlk6mww.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: manofmerc on January 24, 2015, 06:30:28 AM
Cobra cammer if you don't have much welding experience now after building these headers you will !You need a mig welder .You might as well get yourself a smaller 220 volt name brand welding machine that uses a bottle of gas instead of flux core wire.Flux core wire has its place but isn't as pretty as standard wire with gas .As far as cutting tubing a chop saw will make a clean straight cut every time very useful for other projects too.I recently did a roll bar for a buddy of mine .I bought myself a big tubing cutter it is a Rigid brand like pipe fitters use .I bought mine from a junk store it is another good way to cut and trim tubing .If I were you I would fit and tack your header pieces together get the whole thing tacked together and find a welder to weld this for you .Welding thin tubing together that has some gaps is hard for a professional welder much less a novice .This will save you mucho frustration and time .As far as safety and sparks in the garage .Whenever I use my chop saw I do it outside .I set up in front of my building and throw the sparks on the concrete .I also don't store gasoline or paint thinner in my building .And try to keep the floor clear of shop rags and paper towels .I am scared to death of fire one reason I have a steel building .I wish you were closer Cobra Cammer I would love to help you with this .I bought myself a nice used tig welder recently and it does a really good job .Good luck with your project .Doug welding for 38 years
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on January 24, 2015, 11:44:16 PM
Thanks. I have a mig welder that uses argon and co2 mix. In other news, Dad came down today and helped me get the transmission lock out module wired in. This module prevents you from shifting into reverse instead of "6th" gear since they are close in the shifting pattern. Also got all of my measurements for the driveshaft order, so sending in the order form on monday. 6061 aluminum shaft 3.5" diameter. Now i will focus on the headers!

More to come
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on January 26, 2015, 04:33:21 PM
OK Driveshaft is Ordered!!!  My buddy Paul over there says it takes about 1 week to make and then it will ship.

In other news, the Division X fuel hat (and twin fuel pumps) arrive tomorrow....  The guys called me and said they would give back my 3 day delivery fee since they are located in West Palm Beach (like 45 minutes from me).  LOL  I didn't know they were that close.

Anyway, fun stuff!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on January 29, 2015, 11:01:49 AM
OK, the Division X return style fuel hat (Pictured above) arrived yesterday.  I must say its a solid (Billet) piece and feels quite sturdy.  Also in my box-O-Goodies was twin fuel pumps (Walbro GSS342's that can pump 255 Lph each)  and the harness to ensure it all plays nice with the Saleens OEM ECU.  Now, the Fuel hat has a -10AN outlet and a -8AN inlet.  At the end of each of these 90 degree fittings are Male threads with a Flare (37 degrees).  I had to separately purchase the fittings with the 3/8" hose barb to run my fuel hoses.  -8AN fitting (female with flare- to 3/8" hose barb) was easy and picked it up on Jegs.  However, NO ONE sells a -10 AN fitting (Female with flare- to 3/8 in hose barb).  Finally after about 2 hours of trying my luck at multiple places, I decided to purchase a reducer to go from -10 AN to Male -8AN with flare.  Then purchased a second -8AN fitting (female with flare- to 3/8" hose barb).  I wasn't sure what this was going to screw up, so I made a call to a tech at Jegs.  He seemed knowledgeable (at least more knowledgeable that I am in this ) and we "Chatted" a bit.  I explained to him that I want to run 3/8" fuel hose through out the whole system  (to and from the EFI).  I asked him if there would be any negative effect since I am running the -10AN outlet through -8AN (I was assuming they made the outlet -10 AN for a reason.  He explained (and anyone here can jump in if this is incorrect) that there is a large difference in LPH between 3/8 hose (which he said is about -6AN?) and the -10 AN (which he said is about 5/8"?)  however, this difference would only become a problem if I were running super high horsepower (like over 1,000 HP) and said for my purposes, it should be fine.

I also picked up a FAST in line fuel filter.  So now, the progression will be from the New Division X fuel hat, I will run 3/8" hose from the -8AN barb to a -6AN fitting(with 3/8" Barb) the -6AN fitting screws into the FAST inline fuel filter and another -6AN fitting with 3/8" barb off of that.  From that barb run the 3/8" hose to the 8AN fitting with 3/8" bard on the first throttle body.  The throttle bodies came with their own hoses and fittings to link them together.  Then I run 3/8" hose from the 2nd throttle body barb to the FAST Fuel pressure regulator.  Out the bottom of the fuel pressure regulator, run 3/8" hose all the way back through the same channel (Saleen has this channel down the drivers side where the fuel lines run and there is a flat plastic cover to keep everything covered......  really convenient) back to the inlet 3/8" bard on the fuel hat.  Now the car has a Canister Purge valve up front in the engine bay on the driver side wheel well.  I believe this runs to a separate location on the fuel tank (Saleen has a saddle style fuel tank).  I will have to leave this in place and reconnect the harness plug since it allows you to fill up the gas tanks all the way to full.  Without it, I was told there would be a headache of problems associated with filling up the car with gas.  Also the FAST EFI system says that the fuel tank must be vented, and I believe this is the vent.

As you can tell, I am stalling on the headers because the thought is daunting, but once the fuel system is in place, there is nothing left (aside from troubleshooting during first start up).... So eventually I am going to have to do the headers.  Wish I had handy neighbors who were into cars/welding.  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: KMcCullah on January 29, 2015, 05:56:33 PM
I've had a recent "snafu" with the evaporative emissions system on my 2006 Fusion. Maybe the system is similar to your Saleen. My vapor canister is mounted to the bottom of the spare tire well. I hit something that cracked the canister. This caused a vacuum leak in the evaporative emission system that made the ECU set the CEL light. I started out with pulling the codes. Which translated to the gas cap being loose. Replaced the cap and reset the ECU. CEL came back on a few days later. Did some studying and decided the canister purge valve must be bad. Replace the valve and reset the ECU. CEL was back on a few days later. Checked all the hard plastic lines for cracks and loose fittings. Finally found the crack in the vacuum canister and replaced the canister. No CEL light for 8 months now.

 I'm thinking your ECU is going to be mad if you don't supply enough vacuum to the canister purge valve. The ECU will think your gas cap is loose and set the CEL light. You might have to locate the vacuum sensor and wire in some kind of fancy electrical fibbing device to fool the ECU. Mr Jay is an electrical whiz, maybe he can expand on this...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on January 30, 2015, 11:20:19 AM
Well I believe (and I may be mistaken) that the canister Purge valve has separate lines running to the fuel tank.  It is my hope that when I take out the OEM fuel hat/pumps and replace it with the Division X hat and pumps, that the system currently in place with the Canister Purge valve will be unaffected.  I guess I wont know until I start to pull the stock stuff out.  With Dual fuel pumps, I was hoping that there would be plenty vacuum.  I was hoping that the only thing I will need to do is to plug the canister purge valve harness back into the canister (I am going to make a note to do it this weekend).

God knows that if I did this whole project and the ECU lights didn't light up across the board, I did something really really wrong or really really right.  With so many of the stock engine management harness plus disconnected (i.e. Cam sensors, fuel injection harness, AC coolant sensor plug, and on and on......  I would imagine there is going to be a code or 2  LOL

From what I read online, the Canister purge valve (Which in the Saleen is on the Drivers side shock tower) allows you to fill up the gas tank to Full.  Because the Saleen has a saddle style gas tank, if you have a broken or missing canister purge valve, the gas pump will keep thinking the tank is full and stopping.  Honestly I am sure it does more than that, but I was hoping it would act more like a gas tank vent.  Ill keep you all posted when I install  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on January 30, 2015, 02:39:30 PM
Another update.  So since this engine is slightly more bulky in every direction sitting in the engine compartment, the radiator cooling far (and shroud) were going to be an issue.  The radiator fan and shroud on these cars are one piece, and to boot, they include the mounting pads to bolt on the Coolant overflow tank and the Power steering reservoir.  I have a tiny bot over 2" clearance between the end of the March pully cap on the water pump pulley and the radiator.  The OEM radiator fan/shround is something like 6-8" wide at the fan motor...... So not going to work.

My first thought was to cut the car out of the shroud, install as usual, and then put a push fan on the outside of the radiator...  But I feel like without a real shroud, I am going to run into cooling issues (especially in South Florida Sun).

Then I thought about 2 fans... the thickest part of the fan is the motor, and the thinnest part is the outer edge of the fan.  If I put 2 smaller fans (side by side) in there, then the Water pump Pulley cap will be at right about the thinnest part.

Finally I was able to find a Slim fit radiator shroud and 2  individual 13" fans (also pretty slim).  I am going to give these a shot, but I am unsure if the roughly 2400 CFM will be enough to cool the big block ford.

I will still need to cut the top off od the OEM fan shroud (maybe the top 4 inches) and mount with the new shroud so I still retain my mounting points for the reservoirs.  Below is a picture of the unit on its way:

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/05-11-ford-mustang-10-blade-aluminum-racing-radiator-fan-shroud-black-3_zpswki7xcea.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/05-11-ford-mustang-10-blade-aluminum-racing-radiator-fan-shroud-black-3_zpswki7xcea.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: lovehamr on January 31, 2015, 11:32:05 AM
Jason, I have to ask, what 3/8 line are you running?  Along with that question comes, what fuel pressure will you be running?  I ask because of my experience setting my FE up for EFI.  I'm only running 42psi but I still made hard lines for the long runs fore and aft and use braided stainless with AN fittings at all the flex connections.  I did that for a couple of reasons; #1 safety, don't want any high pressure fuel leaks, #2 possible pressure loss over long runs of flexible line.  Are these even issues that need to be dealt with? I don't actually know for sure, it's just what I saw when looking at my system.

Steve
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on January 31, 2015, 11:18:54 PM
Doing 3/8 soft line but designed specifically for EFI. I will be running 42 PSI, but with twin fuel pumps, i dont think lack of pressure will be an issue

Good news for Today!  Drive shaft came. I cant believe how light it is.  See below. Also reconnected the canister purge valve harness, reinstalled factory X pipe and marked to graft in the new headers, and assembled the fuel hat, pumps, and associated sender

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/BEB28752-19D4-44AF-834B-BC0D4829014C_zpscuck0yaz.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/BEB28752-19D4-44AF-834B-BC0D4829014C_zpscuck0yaz.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/8CFD0E72-0ECB-406E-B22A-87100050778E_zpszqvr1seo.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/8CFD0E72-0ECB-406E-B22A-87100050778E_zpszqvr1seo.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/D6CC856F-2C44-46F9-99EE-3A4712AEAFAD_zpslr7rkypa.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/D6CC856F-2C44-46F9-99EE-3A4712AEAFAD_zpslr7rkypa.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 02, 2015, 10:57:28 AM
OK was able to pull out the back seat and gain access to the panel that hides the fuel hat.  After removing the feed like, and the pin connector, I knocked the retaining ring counter clockwise and freed up the hat to come out.  Before the hat could be taken all the way out of the tank, there is a feed tube that looks like it connects over to the second "Saddle" of the fuel tank.  I disconnected it and tied it up so that it didn't fall back into the tank.  Now the tricky part was getting the new Division X fuel hat in.
The instructions say that you have to take off the fuel sender float arm and then reconnect it down in the tank.  Who ever wrote these instructions forgot to mention that the fuel tank sits at a forward slant from the access hole .  You are not able to put it back together in the tank.  so I had to maneuver it into place all connected.  I guess I will not know until I turn it on if the fuel sender float is stuck or not.

Also, when trying to reconnect the "saddle suction-feed hose" back, I realized that whoever at Division X pressed on the fitting the hose connects to, they must have pressed too hard because the end of the fitting was "mushroomed" and would not go into the connector.  I had to pull it back out, use a cutting wheel to trim off the flared piece (maybe the thickness of a Nickel, de-burr it with a fine diamond file, and clean it off..... then go through the same pain again of reinstalling.  The directions always say.... "it drops right in place of the stock unit" but take my word for it.... Not in this case.

The next portion is the wiring harness for this unit.  Since it is in the trunk on the drivers side against the back wall, I removed the trunk liner on the driver side as well as the back trim panel.

I actually stopped there because I didn't understand the directions and wanted to call tech support before I went snipping wires.  When you install the Division X dual pump hat, you do not use the stock harness connector anymore.  The directions actually tell you to go into the trunk, find the Violet wire, and that wire gets soldered on and heat shrinked into this hefty harness they supply.  This harness in turn has a bunch of relays and then a power wire that runs up to the battery.  What I couldn't wrap my hear around was this:

I disconnected the stock harness to the stock fuel hat before it was removed.  There were 4 or 5 wires on this connector.....  Now when I run the new 6 pin connector in the Division X harness, the only wire I am tapping into in the trunk is the Violet wire....  I didn't understand how the other 3 or 4 wires on the stock harness were no longer needed.

When I called tech support I got an answer.  So apparently the Violet wire is the sender wire (which will ensure my gauge up front works, I am running power wires directly to the battery with this new harness, so I don't need to tap into the module in the trunk for that, I round the harness in the trunk, so I don't need to tap into the module for that, and the relays attached to the new harness take the place of whatever else is left.  Basically he said that the Fuel control module in the trunk is no longer needed, but the new harness taps into it with the violet wire just so the fuel gauge works up front.

We will see I guess.....

Anyway, I am leaving the back seat out until I am able to turn the car on.... Since I will need to check for leaks.

Like so many have said.... these little things add up to be a huge pain in the butt.  Building the Cammer was in essence the easier part  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 02, 2015, 03:58:39 PM
Also just found this nifty piece....  was meant for Edelbrock carbs, but I was told by a tech that Edelbrock and Holley have the same bolt patters (plus they are slots and not holes on the throttle bracket pictured below).  Works with a Lokar throttle cable.... which should make that part a little easier.

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/T2eC16ZsE9swm0rUBReCjIyrgg60_57_zpsgsvgarpr.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/T2eC16ZsE9swm0rUBReCjIyrgg60_57_zpsgsvgarpr.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on February 02, 2015, 04:08:16 PM
That is a nifty part, all right.  Who makes it, and how much does it cost?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 03, 2015, 09:55:08 AM
Hey Jay,

Its about $160.00 with shipping and its made by a company called PRP Racing Products. www.prpracingproducts.com

Hopefully it will make things easier, but I just had to purchase longer carb studs for the drivers side.  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 05, 2015, 11:36:26 AM
OK so clarification on the wiring issue above.  I still thought something was wrong when I took another look at it (even with the tech persons explanation).  So I called again when I got to work the next day.....

Got a better tech, but still doesn't look good for them.

OK so the premise is that this Fuel Hat and harness was designed for a 2005 Mustang GT.

First part of the instruction was to go back in the trunk and find the "Violet wire" on the loom for the PFDM.  Again, since we already went over that there is no Violet wire on the loom for a 2005 Mustang, I called them back.  Tech guy had to call the manufacturer of the actual wiring harness (because I guess the people who assemble it know more than this company who designed it???)  seemed a bit sad.

Finally they told me to snip another color wire.......  LOL  Nope sorry my loom doesn't have that color wire either.  Then I just asked the guy, "Tell me what the function of the wire you want me to tap into is.... and then I will go find a wiring diagram on Google for it."  Seemed easier I think.  Basically they wanted me to tap into (Key on Power) and not the "sender" wire like the first tech said.

The wiring diagram did not show which of these wires was specifically a key on power source. So again the tech put me on hold for 20 minutes while they spoke to the people who actually assemble these harnesses.  Finally they decided that the Fuel inertia switch is the only one of these wires that functions with key on power.  So finally I know now to snip the "WH" white on my FPDM loom and hook into that.

Before the tech hung up, I had another question....  on the end of the harness that plug into the actual DivisionX fuel hat, there are 2 short wires with crimp fittings on them.  "Yellow" and "Black" which are supposed be spliced into the stock fuel hat harness (the only 2 wires needed since the OEM harness for the fuel hat will no longer be used).  As per the instruction, the yellow wire goes to the Yellow stock harness wire..... and the Black wire to the black OEM harness wire......This is actually the sender wires that go to the instrument cluster to ensure the gauge works in the stock dash.

Wrong again!  The sender wires (as per the Ford Wiring diagram and my photos of the OEM harness Loom) are Light blue and Light Green.........So again a few more minutes on hold and now we know (or are pretty sure?) that the yellow wire goes to the Light green wire and Black wire to the Light blue.

These guys really need to get someone to write them better instructions.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 06, 2015, 10:52:47 AM
OK so last night, in preparation for hooking up the last of the fuel system this weekend, I mounted the FAST Fuel regulator/Pressure gauge.  I mounted it right on the firewall-Passenger side-ish right next to the Saleen ID plate.  As the Throttle bodies are sitting in such a way that the inlet and outlet of the fuel rails are facing the passenger side, this should give me the most direct access to the inlet and outlet of the regulator.  I also placed 2 hose clamps on the bridge fuel line that links the 2 separate throttle bodies.  They were push lock barbs, but I just didn't feel secure leaving them without clamps.  I figure 2 clamps will give piece of mind and I have a ton of them.  I will take a photo tonight.

Short update... commute is getting horrible with all of the snow birds down here so I am exhausted after 2-1/2 hour ride home LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: mike7570 on February 06, 2015, 05:06:03 PM
Jason, Are you planning on tacking the car to the drag strip at times? If memory serves me right they do not like any part of the fuel system mounted to the firewall.
Mike
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 07, 2015, 12:01:45 AM
No.... Just a weekend cruiser

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/0B6A567E-83DB-4618-A796-77BDC4EABEE2_zpsh0eyx4hk.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/0B6A567E-83DB-4618-A796-77BDC4EABEE2_zpsh0eyx4hk.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/73164427-98CF-4DD8-8AE3-648D787BDEAD_zpsdus8wb9w.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/73164427-98CF-4DD8-8AE3-648D787BDEAD_zpsdus8wb9w.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on February 07, 2015, 08:20:03 AM
I don't want to be "that guy" but you seem to have varying hose and clamp design going on.  Some push loc with clamps added, some rubber with clamps.   I know it adds cost but I think for safety and a clean install I would go with a nice fixed fitting assembly like you use with braided even if you use the nice black braided hose.

The push loc is good when assembled correctly, but I have always steered away from it for more than carb line pressure

I bring it up because push loc hoses should not use clamps (although I doubt it hurts it) and the rubber hose is certainly not as strong, but with EFI running at close to 50 psi, and potentially some significant return volume when off the throttle or idling, it's important to have safe connections
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 08, 2015, 01:00:05 PM
The rubber hose is specifically EFI hose good to like 70 psi and wasnt cheap. Something like 150.00 for the 2 lines. If they fail, i will replace with braided. The pushlock was supplied by FAST and is just the line that links the 2 throttle bodies together. I do think the braided line would look better though. :-)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on February 08, 2015, 01:20:23 PM
I wasn't really commenting about what the lines were made of, other than the soft line that looked weak and a second  comment that pushlocs don't usually use a clamp.  They are designed to lock in place without one, hence the name

What I was really saying is that I wouldn't use pushlocs for EFI, especially on the pressure side.  I would use a positive clamping style AN fitting.  However, I do see lots of success with pushloc fittings and some can take some crazy pressures, I just like the idea of a threaded collar that holds it to the swedge

Keep an eye on it, it always can be changed.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 09, 2015, 09:24:12 AM
Hey Ross,

Yea I only put those clamps on the pushloc portion because it makes me nervous not having anything holding that hose on there (even though that's how they were designed).  I figured since I have plenty of those clamps, and since it wont hurt the line, the more secure the better.

As you said, a braided steel fuel and return line with the locking fittings would be ideal.

This weekend the radiator shroud came with the 2 -13" electric fans......  Holy cow, perfect fit!!!  still have like 1/2" between the fans and the water pump pulley.  Got the Alternator belt and P/S belts measured up and ordered from NAPA online.

Finished the wiring of the Fuel pump relays and harness......  Still going to leave the back seat out until I can get some power to the pumps and make sure I have no leaks.

Rolled the car out of the garage since it was such a nice weekend and gave it a wash and wax.

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/C5FC6A92-D5BF-400B-B6A0-9F5E6A85031B_zpsv8amsh55.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/C5FC6A92-D5BF-400B-B6A0-9F5E6A85031B_zpsv8amsh55.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 09, 2015, 03:27:49 PM
Also forgot to mention this weekend....  I was afraid that there was a possibility that the fuel out line might have a bend in it (restricting the pumps and flow) just given the angle and lack of spacer between the fuel hat and the car body.  There is so little room to see, I had to turn the video feature on my iphone with the light on to be able to see under there.  The return line is perfect.  Has a nice arc to the line and its not kinked.  The fuel out line seems to have a small kink in it.  Im certain that this will not be good, so I picked up a 90 degree bend fitting so the hose can come in at a better angle and thus get the kink out.

I was thinking about what ross was saying in regards to the AN fittings that screw on to the hose....  So I went on Jegs and tried to recreate the fuel lines with these fittings and new hose....

Where I run into a problem is that the throttle bodies on the FAST EFI are -6AN..... the fuel line out of the hat is -10AN  LOL  so I can run 10AN fittings and line from the hat to the throttle bodies, but then cant find any fittings to go from 10AN to 6AN without using like 2 different reducers....  Which I think would cause weak spots?

I would assume that the return lines from the regulator will be fine as it since they wont see the same pressure (and I used high pressure EFI fuel line anyway).

On another note, I really am totally out of my league on the headers.  I got a referral to a place right around the corner who wants 1800.00 for raw steel long tube headers, and needs the car for 3 days.  Perhaps I just eat the 200.00 on the Hedmann headers I bought as donors.  I think my life would be 10000000 times easier to just have the headers built.  Want to start this engine soon  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on February 09, 2015, 04:24:07 PM
As long as one of the days is not testing your Hot Rod. ::)
Is it really a Saleen anymore?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Drew Pojedinec on February 09, 2015, 08:51:18 PM
Quote
Where I run into a problem is that the throttle bodies on the FAST EFI are -6AN..... the fuel line out of the hat is -10AN  LOL  so I can run 10AN fittings and line from the hat to the throttle bodies, but then cant find any fittings to go from 10AN to 6AN without using like 2 different reducers....  Which I think would cause weak spots?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-220044b/overview/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-220123-b/overview/

they make all kinds dude.  I ran Summits -6 SS braided for all my oil/transmission lines and -8 from inside the fuel pickup to the carbs on my car, no problems.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on February 11, 2015, 12:51:02 AM
Is it really a Saleen anymore?

Of course it's still a Saleen. Is it a stock Saleen? No, but who here has a "stock" anything? Now it's a freakin b#@a$$ Saleen 8) 8)

It would probably take me 3 days just to do one tube. The guy must have a lot of experience to do a whole set in 3 days. Are you going to ceramic coat them then? I think that would be a very good choice.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on February 11, 2015, 07:40:05 AM
As I get older, or is it way older, I love to throw money at problems instead of fighting them when I can.  However, I rarely can, because not too many guys will be as careful as the guy who owns the car

If you do have the headers built, interview the guy, talk to him, be respectful and make sure he knows what you want.  If everyone is on the same page, you may be happier spending the money instead of the time.  However, if you aren't happy with his work, you will be out the dough and have crappy headers, so proceed carefully and make sure he knows how fussy you intend to be
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 11, 2015, 10:48:18 AM
The guy who did the machine work on my block and crank referred me over to who does all of his header and roll cage work.  Place is called AC Carcraft in Coral Springs Florida.  IN the 5 or 6 shops I spoke to before this guy, he seemed the most legit.  Took all of my information, engine type, primary tube dia. requested, material requested, if I had the header flanges or not... etc. and said he would write up an estimate and get back to me. (Most people I called just spit out a number randomly without even asking anything).

Ended up being 1800.00 for raw steel, 2" primaries, and with the assumption I supply the header flanges.  Also they use a flatbed company who charges 50.00 each way (So 100.00 for pick up and drop off).  They seem to specialize in Mustangs and do headers and roll cages.  Of course before I have the car flat bedded over, I will stop in and take a little tour.  Its nice because its like 10 minutes from my house.

I was thinking just to do them in raw steel for now and wrap them in the thermal wrap.  There are a few places around me that do Ceramic coatings so that can "Stay on the table", but stainless steel was about 1,000 more than the quote I got, so that's not going to be an option.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 11, 2015, 10:52:03 AM
Quote
Where I run into a problem is that the throttle bodies on the FAST EFI are -6AN..... the fuel line out of the hat is -10AN  LOL  so I can run 10AN fittings and line from the hat to the throttle bodies, but then cant find any fittings to go from 10AN to 6AN without using like 2 different reducers....  Which I think would cause weak spots?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-220044b/overview/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-220123-b/overview/

they make all kinds dude.  I ran Summits -6 SS braided for all my oil/transmission lines and -8 from inside the fuel pickup to the carbs on my car, no problems.

I see what you mean.... I believe I was missing the fact that I could remove the fitting that came with the FAST throttle body which I believe is -6An male to -6AN male.... and just crew in one of these.  Thanks, its a little clearer now.  I think because I already purchased these lines and fittings, I will get the car running with them, and then once I have it running, I will swap out the lines for the braided line and screw in fittings.  Luckily this car was super simple to run fuel lines on and swapping them out will prob only take 2 hours or so.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 11, 2015, 03:43:30 PM
Yee haw  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on February 12, 2015, 12:01:15 AM
The guy who did the machine work on my block and crank referred me over to who does all of his header and roll cage work.  Place is called AC Carcraft in Coral Springs Florida.  IN the 5 or 6 shops I spoke to before this guy, he seemed the most legit.  Took all of my information, engine type, primary tube dia. requested, material requested, if I had the header flanges or not... etc. and said he would write up an estimate and get back to me. (Most people I called just spit out a number randomly without even asking anything).

Ended up being 1800.00 for raw steel, 2" primaries, and with the assumption I supply the header flanges.  Also they use a flatbed company who charges 50.00 each way (So 100.00 for pick up and drop off).  They seem to specialize in Mustangs and do headers and roll cages.  Of course before I have the car flat bedded over, I will stop in and take a little tour.  Its nice because its like 10 minutes from my house.

I was thinking just to do them in raw steel for now and wrap them in the thermal wrap.  There are a few places around me that do Ceramic coatings so that can "Stay on the table", but stainless steel was about 1,000 more than the quote I got, so that's not going to be an option.

I'd test fit them and coat them, 200-250 bucks and you can leave them on for life.  Not to mention the cooler underhood temps.  At this point, waiting for a couple hundred bucks is easier than letting the headers crack, then repair and coat.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on February 12, 2015, 06:45:32 AM
Thermal wrap is a bad idea. Ask you header guy about it for a streeter. Most regret doing so as on cool down, moisture forms between the wrap and the o.d. of the headers, causing plain steel to rust damn quick.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 12, 2015, 10:29:06 AM
OK ceramic coating it will be! ;) ;)

On a side note, I got the 90 degree barb fitting for the fuel hat last night.  If you remember, My thought was that the limited space under the back floor and the odd angle of the straight barb was causing a kink in the fuel line.  I put my Iphone as best I could down the hole to try and film what the hose looked like, and it appeared to have a small kink.  Either way, a $5 fitting would ease my mind.

After I removed the hose clamp from the Fuel Injection grade line, I tried for 15 minuted to pull the barb out  HAHAHA  no such luck.  I snipped the line shorter and installed the 90 degree barb fitting and hose clamp, and now the fuel line has a nice arc and no kink.

Just to know, I continued to try and pull the straight barbed fitting off of the hose piece I snipped off, and I could not get it. I actually grabbed hold of the fitting and had another person pull the end of the fuel injection hose......  Still cant get it  LOL.  And this wasn't even a pushloc fitting!  Just a regular barbed fitting.   There is now no doubt in my mind that with a hose clamp on the barb, there will be "0" chance of a leak.  Super surprised I could not separate them seeing as how the barb slid right in the line with very little persuasion during the original installation.

Either way, 2 positive things came from swapping out the fitting  :0)

Hopefully going to stop by the Header shop this weekend to take a look around and feel the place out.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: 601hp on February 16, 2015, 09:25:52 PM
FWIW, my primary pipes are 20 years old, and I first wrapped them 19 years ago.  They haven't rusted at all.  Prior to wrapping, the pipes were coated with Jet Hot's high temp coating, inside and outside.  If I recall, it was a 1900 degree coating.  I re-wrapped these pipes 2 months ago and they appear to be in very good condition.

The heat reduction in the seating area was so much better AFTER wrapping, compared to when the pipes were only ceramic coated.  The wrap is so effective that I'm able to raise the hood immediately after driving, and can quickly swipe my hand against the wrap and not be burned.

David
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on February 16, 2015, 09:46:14 PM
FWIW, my primary pipes are 20 years old, and I first wrapped them 19 years ago.  They haven't rusted at all.  Prior to wrapping, the pipes were coated with Jet Hot's high temp coating, inside and outside.  If I recall, it was a 1900 degree coating.  I re-wrapped these pipes 2 months ago and they appear to be in very good condition.

The heat reduction in the seating area was so much better AFTER wrapping, compared to when the pipes were only ceramic coated.  The wrap is so effective that I'm able to raise the hood immediately after driving, and can quickly swipe my hand against the wrap and not be burned.

David


Like I said above.......plain steel they ain't...at least after they have been coated.

I also have Jet Hot coated headers and the coating alone makes a huge diff in underhood temps, for sure.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on February 16, 2015, 10:02:59 PM
I think the bad rap that header wrap (pun intended) got back in the day was on uncoated headers.  I know of a couple of people that had their headers disintegrate after a year or two being wrapped, but that was before good thermal barrier coatings were available.  I think its cool that wrapping coated headers doesn't have the same bad effects; I might try that on one of my cars...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 17, 2015, 01:43:12 PM
Yea I mean the wrap is cheap.  After getting them ceramic coated, I may use the wrap on top of that as well.  :0)  Heading over to the shop on Saturday to talk to the guys.  Also going to a hydraulic shop with my P/S line to have them extend it with new line so it will reach my 60's era PS pump
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 18, 2015, 09:51:54 AM
STUCK AGAIN!  lol

I got my belts finally from Napa online after 10 days in transit lol.  Neither one fits.  Sucks.  I took a piece of rope and wrapped it around the pulleys at the smallest setting as well as the farthest.  Then I measured the rope on the floor with a tape measure to get my min and max..... went online and ordered a belt that fell as close to the middle of each as I could.  Didn't work of course.

The alternator belt was almost the right size,  Maybe 1" smaller (or even 3/4 " smaller) would have been perfect.

The Power steering pump wasn't even close.  Needed maybe 1.5" larger.  The problem is that There are not many choices to select from.  Does anyone know where I can get a larger selection of belts??  Maybe like a depot website or something?  The width that seemed to work was 0.375" and the angle of the V was 36 degrees.

I need to get these belts on before I can do the final install of the fan/Shroud setup and fill her up with coolant.

Found a place called Vbeltsupply.com  I ordered 7 belts at various sizes at the pitch.  Since they were only $4.00, I wont feel that bad.  I would say the trickiest one is the PS belt because the only 63' Power steering assembly I have doesn't get much of a swing.  I think with the right size belt, you have to unbolt the bracket, put the belt on, then reinstall the "Pivot" bolt then tilt it back the 1/2" of swing it has to get a little tension.  Not too sure but we will see when they come.

Jason
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on February 18, 2015, 11:51:03 AM
I wouldn't use the wrap. As mentioned before, it will trap moisture and cause the headers to rust out even with the ceramic coating on them. Putting some heat reflective material on the firewall, floorboard or any other key area would be a far better choice.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on February 18, 2015, 02:16:41 PM
STUCK AGAIN!  lol

I got my belts finally from Napa online after 10 days in transit lol.  Neither one fits.  Sucks.  I took a piece of rope and wrapped it around the pulleys at the smallest setting as well as the farthest.  Then I measured the rope on the floor with a tape measure to get my min and max..... went online and ordered a belt that fell as close to the middle of each as I could.  Didn't work of course.

The alternator belt was almost the right size,  Maybe 1" smaller (or even 3/4 " smaller) would have been perfect.

The Power steering pump wasn't even close.  Needed maybe 1.5" larger.  The problem is that There are not many choices to select from.  Does anyone know where I can get a larger selection of belts??  Maybe like a depot website or something?  The width that seemed to work was 0.375" and the angle of the V was 36 degrees.

I need to get these belts on before I can do the final install of the fan/Shroud setup and fill her up with coolant.

Found a place called Vbeltsupply.com  I ordered 7 belts at various sizes at the pitch.  Since they were only $4.00, I wont feel that bad.  I would say the trickiest one is the PS belt because the only 63' Power steering assembly I have doesn't get much of a swing.  I think with the right size belt, you have to unbolt the bracket, put the belt on, then reinstall the "Pivot" bolt then tilt it back the 1/2" of swing it has to get a little tension.  Not too sure but we will see when they come.

Jason

Dude, you know that there are auto parts stores around, right?  ;-)  You don't have to order everything online, just hop in the car and have your belts in a few minutes!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jmlay on February 18, 2015, 07:21:41 PM
Was thinking the exact same thing.

[/quote]

Dude, you know that there are auto parts stores around, right?  ;-)  You don't have to order everything online, just hop in the car and have your belts in a few minutes!
[/quote]
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 19, 2015, 09:53:29 AM
The autoparts store doesn't seem to have the right lengths.  I bough a few already with no luck.  I found a place online that sells belts for $3 each and they come in just about every single size.  I purchased a range of sizes 7 or so.... and will try each one.  Autozone was useless   and Napa is where I got the belts I have and they jumped in sizes wildly  :0/

Wanted to get a better picture of what I have left to do before Im "Done", and came up with this list.  I need to take like a week off of work and just get the little stuff done.  Its mostly just little things, but its these things that are keeping me from finishing.  Anyone in Florida that would like to come help me knock this stuff out?  LOL

Alternator belt- Ordered
Power steering belt- Ordered
Lower radiator hose- Ordered
Fill trans with fluid (supplied by Modern Driveline)
Wire the electric fans into the harness plug from OEN fan
Install dual fan/shroud
Install OEM fan shroud (modified) over the aluminum shroud (for the mounting points for the Coolant and PS reservoirs)
Install upper radiator hose- Ordered
Install reservoirs into radiator shroud
Install front cover to Radiator/Grill
Bring OEM P/S hose to Davie to get a custom one built
Lengthen the 2 wires on the CHT sender so it reaches the harness
Pull the Fuel pump power wire through the firewall and attach to battery terminal
Purchase Battery
Check Fuel system for leaks and then reinstall back seat
Bring to Coral Springs for custom headers
Install MSD 6 ignition box
Install Throttle return bracket(s) with larder studs purchased from Jegs (and throttle linkage that came with dual quad kit)
Install the wiring harness for FAST EFI
Build resistor (designed by UM professor) to go between RMP feed and harness for the tachometer
Start car!!!!!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jmlay on February 19, 2015, 03:02:20 PM
The last one will be the most fun, only second to driving it. ;-)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: R-WEST on February 19, 2015, 05:50:11 PM
Quote
Pull the Fuel pump power wire through the firewall and attach to battery terminal
You mean, with an inline fuse, or to a fused terminal strip, right?  ???
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 20, 2015, 11:16:43 AM
Sorry, The power wire for the Fuel pumps comes straight from the DivisionX harness.  The power wire runs to the battery, and there are assorted fuses and relays along the harness.  This was the part where I had to splice into the Fuel Control Module in the trunk as well as splice into the old plug for the sender at the hat.   

The harness (as so it was sold to me) is supposed to give a more reliable power source to the Dual pumps as well as the correct 6 pin plug for the fuel hat.  It needed to be spliced into a few areas.  The fuel control module in the trunk was used so It could be spliced into the fuel intertia switch in the Saleen.  This is an Ign. Power source  that also shuts off the fuel pumps upon any sort of impact.

The other area of splicing was 2 wires that lead to the dash fuel gauge.  I then ran the power wires through the interior of the car, behind the passenger side kick panel and to a rubber grommet in the firewall.  I just need to pull it through that grommet and link it up to the correct battery terminal.  Again, a small thing, but another small thing on the list!

Last night another delivery from Jegs.

I was able to install the upper radiator hose (a flexible metal unit from jegs).  This kit was great because the water neck coming out of the cammer is like twice as big as the inlet to the Saleen radiator.  The kit came with a variety of adapters and after selecting the correct ones, the Cammer is now partially connected to the radiator.

I will have the bottom radiator hose by Saturday (coming from Summit racing).  I also picket up some spark plug wire seperators just to make neat the tangle of wires.  Got those installed last night.  Wires are still a bit long, but at least organized.

I had some $ left over on a gift card from Jegs, so I got E3 spark plugs that are replacements for the ones I have there now.  They are supposed to be more fuel efficient and have diamond shape to the tip.  This means you don't need to check the gap on the plugs and they create a stronger spark.

I was looking at Jegs and Taylor has Hemi well caps.  I was curious if these are large enough to cover the Cammer wells.  They are like $40.00 but if they fit, I would love to get them.  Jay- do you know if these would fit?  Are Hemi and Cammer spark plug well tubes the same diameter?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on February 20, 2015, 03:52:07 PM
The only Hemi rubber plugs I've tried didn't fit; they were too big.  Best to try to find some of the right ones if you can.  There was a guy on ebay under the seller name Yellow Engine Service who was making reproductions, and offering them for sale periodically.  I haven't seen him lately, but haven't been looking either.  I bought a set about a year ago from him, and they are pretty nice, so keep your eyes out for those...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 20, 2015, 05:00:56 PM
Thanks Jay.  I actually contacted him through ebay, but when I asked if he would sell a set, he wrote back how large an order I wanted.  When I said I am only in need of 1 set, he stopped communication  LOL.  I keep him on my radar and look periodically.   ;D

Thanks, I didn't want to purchase the hemi covers if there was a chance they wouldn't fit.

Jason
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: thatdarncat on February 20, 2015, 05:24:08 PM
On Jay's recommendation I purchased a set of the plug wire boot covers from them almost 2 years ago. I didn't go through ebay, although I did see the ad there. Maybe he is out and needs to get enough orders together to make another run? I also seem to remember having to call back as he seemed a little confused taking the order over the phone. They did ship them promptly though and they looked good. I'd try again. Here is the contact info I have on file:

Yellow Engine Service
4705 Martin St.
Fort Worth, TX. 76119

Phone: 817-429-3208
 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Leny Mason on February 22, 2015, 06:12:09 AM
Thanks Jay.  I actually contacted him through ebay, but when I asked if he would sell a set, he wrote back how large an order I wanted.  When I said I am only in need of 1 set, he stopped communication  LOL.  I keep him on my radar and look periodically.   ;D

Thanks, I didn't want to purchase the hemi covers if there was a chance they wouldn't fit.

Jason
Hi You should look at Buick nail head wire boots, and they are cheep worth a try,  I am trying remember how big they are I know the Hemi ones are to big, I used some off an old Cammer wires, but I think the Buick will work. Leny Mason
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 23, 2015, 09:47:21 AM
I called the Yellowengine place again.  He said they are $200.00 a set and that he should have more next month.  I will try and snag a set from him as soon as they are available.

Got a few tedious things done this weekend.  I am going to try and keep track of it with this list so I can get this done.  All these people driving their cars around down here because of the nice weather and mine is sadly sitting in a dark garage.....

-Alternator belt- Ordered
-Power steering belt- Ordered
-Lower radiator hose- Ordered
-Fill trans with fluid (supplied by Modern Driveline)
-Wire the electric fans into the harness plug from OEN fan
-Install dual fan/shroud
-Install OEM fan shroud (modified) over the aluminum shroud (for the mounting points for the Coolant and PS reservoirs)
-Install upper radiator hose- Ordered
-Install reservoirs into radiator shroud
-Install front cover to Radiator/Grill
-Bring OEM P/S hose to Davie to get a custom one built
-Lengthen the 2 wires on the CHT sender so it reaches the harness
-Pull the Fuel pump power wire through the firewall and attach to battery terminal
-Purchase Battery
-Check Fuel system for leaks and then reinstall back seat
-Bring to Coral Springs for custom headers
-Install MSD 6 ignition box
-Install Throttle return bracket(s) with larder studs purchased from Jegs (and throttle linkage that came with dual quad kit)
-Install the wiring harness for FAST EFI
-Build resistor (designed by UM professor) to go between RMP feed and harness for the tachometer
-Start car!!!!!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 24, 2015, 09:56:00 AM
Just for fun......

Someone wanted to trade a Factory 5 Cobra with a supercharged Shebly GT500 4.6 for the Cammer Saleen.   ::)

Now if it were a Kirkham.........  Done deal!  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: philminotti on February 24, 2015, 06:57:30 PM
Not to insult anyone, but that combo is worth only slightly more than your engine.  Just sayin'....
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on February 24, 2015, 09:21:41 PM
Agreed!  The gent offering the trade was obviously looking to score for himself.  Unsolicited offers like this mean you're doing something right ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 25, 2015, 10:32:24 AM
Also agreed,

Working on the coolant system hoses.  Quick question, I have a remote coolant reservoir that has to be T'd into a radiator hose.  Would you want that T'd into the upper radiator hose of the lower radiator hose?  I would guess the upper hose only because if it was mounted to the lower hose, the Cammer engine water pump would suck the reservoir dry.  Is my thinking correct?

The Saleen remote coolant resovoir has a feed line that is T'd into a coolant hose and an overflow line that is connected into the radiator.  The coolant reservoir is used to fill the system with coolant.

I wanted to get this hooked up so I can get some antifreeze in there.  Ordered the T, but just needed to find out if it should be connected to Top or bottom radiator hose
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on February 25, 2015, 11:32:10 AM
Jason -

That coolant reservoir really wants to be at the highest point in the system.  Aside from being the fill point, it also collects all of the air bubbles.  At Ford we called these "Pressurized De-Gas Bottles".  With modern cars and their low hoodlines, it can be a challenge to keep air bubbles out of the coolant loop.  That reservoir helps a lot.

So yes, you do need to tee it into the upper hose.  Find a mounting point that puts the top of the tank at least as high as where the upper hose meets the intake elbow.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 25, 2015, 11:46:40 AM
Thanks.  Yes the way the Coolant reservoir sits, it would be the highest point in the coolant system.  I just spend a good 45 minutes looking up the coolant system on 2005 4.6L modular engines, and it seems the coolant flow is reversed in these engines.  This is why originally, the coolant reservoir T'd into the lower radiator hose (And this is why the thermostat was in line with the lower radiator hose.  Thank you for confirming.  I will just use my Bypass T fitting and hook up the reservoir to the upper hose and I should be good to go.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 25, 2015, 04:43:03 PM
Just another update.  I was able to use one of the multiple belts ordered from V belt supply global to work with the alternator  It ended up that the 41" seemed to work the best.

The 45" (which was the largest belt I purchased), was still too small to get around the power steering pump.  With this type of pump, like I stated before, there is very little adjustment swing.  I ordered the next size, which is 45.5" (with the correct width) and I will still need to unbolt the pump, then hook the belt around, then rebolt the pump and try and tighten it.  Hopefully the 45.5 Will work. 

I took a few minutes to talk with the Hydraulic hose shop down the road.  He is very helpful, and after speaking to him about this project and the possibility of rigging something to work, I had the idea to order a 1963 Galaxie FE power steering hose (pressure).  it was only $19, and the shop will be able to cut off the crimp and use their screw in fitting.  He will also be able to cut the fittings out of the 2005 Saleen P/S pressure hose and make one custom line that works with the 2005 Rack and the 1963 Pump.  His hoses are rated to 2600 PSI as well.  If I get the delivery from Napa by Friday, I will run it all over to him by Saturday to get it put together (fingers crossed).

I also remembered that there is a vacuum reference barb on the fuel pressure regulator that needs to be referenced off of one vacuum port on the throttle bodies.  I uncapped 1 port on the throttle body and oddly enough had a perfect sizes piece of vacuum hose from the twin Paxton 68 Mustang fastback car.  Check and Check!

This Weekend I am going to pick up a "red top" optima battery and turn the key on for the first time to check for fuel system leaks!!!!  Exciting.  If nothing, Back seat goes back in
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on February 25, 2015, 07:09:16 PM
Usually the vacuum reference on a fuel pressure regulator is used for boosted applications only; are you sure you need to use that?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on February 25, 2015, 09:31:58 PM
Usually the vacuum reference on a fuel pressure regulator is used for boosted applications only; are you sure you need to use that?

I actually drafted up a post and wondered whether it was worth bringing up and deleted it

You are right Jay, he shouldn't need it without boost and potentially it could reduce fuel pressure at light throttle. 

The reason I didn't post was 15 inches of mercury isn't much (compared to 15 PSI of boost) and won't change things too much at idle and of course as it goes to zero at WOT it won't do anything at all.

In the end, it's sort of a waste of vacuum line, I can't imagine he'll have that much idle vacuum anyway, so it will ultimately be the same as not being connected
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 26, 2015, 09:56:37 AM
I didn't know either way so I called the tech at Jegs.  He confirmed that I needed to connect it to one of the throttle body vacuum ports and keep the other ports plugged. (I had originally thought I needed to reference them both by running a T off the Regulator to each throttle body.

I actually found this on Aeromotives site (Even though its a FAST regulator), so I think I will definitely recap the throttle body vacuum reference port and leave the barb open to atmospheric pressure:

6. What is the barb fitting in the regulator cap used for?  How and where should it be connected if I  use it, and what should be done with it if I don’t?
All Aeromotive, carburetor bypass regulators incorporate the necessary design to allow the regulated fuel pressure to be vacuum or boost referenced, on a 1:1 ratio.  For “blow through carb”, forced induction applications, where a turbo or centrifugal supercharger pressurizes the carburetor through a hat or in an enclosure, the regulator boost port should reference to positive pressure only, not vacuum.  connect the port to the carburetor box or hat, not the intake manifold.  For carbureted, naturally aspirated engines, and for roots supercharged engines where the blower draws through the carburetor, the vacuum/boost reference port should be left open to atmosphere, never plugged.

 There is one potential use for referencing fuel pressure to vacuum on a naturally aspirated (not blow through) carbureted engine; where alcohol is the fuel of choice.  In this case a line from the regulator to the base of the carburetor, beneath the throttle blade into the intake plenum, can be used to lower idle fuel pressure and allow higher fuel pressure to feed the carburetor at wide-open-throttle.
- See more at: http://aeromotiveinc.com/frequently-asked-questions/faq-carbureted-regulators/#sthash.G3bZOx4c.dpuf
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on February 26, 2015, 04:10:21 PM
Just make sure you set the fuel pressure you want for WOT (generally 45-50 psi, use FAST's number) with it unhooked, or the engine off.  If you do it with the engine idling, when the you crack the throttle it will slightly add pressure and require the ECM to compensate

In the end, it is a minute difference, but if you are going to do it, may as well check it
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 26, 2015, 05:03:41 PM
how would you set the Fuel pressure with the car off?  Wouldn't the pressure gauge read 0 with the pumps off?

The directions tell you to hand tighten the adjustment screw to the bottom.  Then you can open it as needed to get to 43 PSI and then tighten down the locking nut.

My thought was to have everything hooked up, put the key in the acc position with will turn the pumps on, then turn the adjustment screw slowly while watching the gauge until it gets to 43 psi and then lock it down with the lock nut.

Is there a different way I should do this?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 26, 2015, 05:13:44 PM
I just went back and re-read the instructions for the FAST EFI setup, and it says that it needs the vacuum line reference run from the regulator to the manifold reference port on the throttle body.  These throttle bodies cannot be used with turbos or superchargers, so even though its not normally done, I think I will listen to the instructions from FAST and just leave the line hooked up.  I guess FAST is just "special"  hahaha

 :-\

instruction are on the tab labeled at the bottom :  http://www.jegs.com/i/FAST/244/30226-KIT/10002/-1
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 27, 2015, 10:14:33 AM
OK!  some good news and multiples of it!

Last night I got the 45.5" v belt delivered.  I looped the belt around the crank pulley, water pump pulley, and finally the P/S pulley (the power steering pump had to be completely unbolted and detached to get the belt around.  Then, with the belt on all 3 pulleys, I bolted the pivot bolt on the P/S bracket to the water pump (loosely).  With the belt slightly tensioned, the adjustment bolt hole at the top of the bracket was aligned!  I then pulled up on the power steering pump to put a little more tension on the belt and tightened the top adjuster bolt and the center pivot bolt on the bracket.  Finally, the alternator and P/S belts are on!  It just barely cleared the lower radiator hose, so I may do a little turning and maneuvering of the hoses to give myself a little more space before initial fire up.

Then, a little weary, I was dying to hook up the Optima red top battery and test out the electric/ fuel lines.  I, of course, was thinking I was going to hook up the battery and smoke would start to come from various wire bundles and I would be screwed......

but here I was, attaching the terminals .........

Suddenly the car sprang to life!  I heard a click, the interior light came on (had the door open  Lol), opened the door and the bell was dinging.....

Then came the ultimate moment of truth.  I was going to turn the key to "acc" and make sure the fuel pumps work, fuel gauge worked, and that there were no leaks in the new fuel lines run..... and get the regulator pressure dialed in.

I literally turned the key expecting a fire  HAHAHA  Not much confidence I know.

Instantly, the pumps were-a-humm'n.....  Dash lit up and the gas gauge rose to 1/2 tank (sounds about where It was when I started this project a year ago  LOL)....  fuel regulator was reading like 20 PSI, so I adjusted it to 43 PSI and  not a single leak!!!!!!  fuel return was pumping right back into the tank (could feel it in the return hose).

SUPER SIKED!!!!!  Back seat is going back in tonight and I am going to call the flatbead to take the car over to the header place prob one day next week!  I am so close now I can taste it!!!!!!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on February 27, 2015, 12:00:39 PM
Sounds Great!
Dump that old gas and get some fresh stuff for the big day.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 27, 2015, 12:22:49 PM
I think I will.  Its always gotten 93 octane and before I began this project, I put a half bottle of Fuel stabilizer (Stabil) in the tank.....  But there is a gas station (Cheveron) down the street that sells 93 and 94 octane fuel.  Never saw 94 octane fuel at the pump before, so maybe a fresh tank of that sweet goodness will do!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: rockittsled on February 27, 2015, 12:44:11 PM
Please video the startup, cant wait  :D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 27, 2015, 03:40:54 PM
OK, so last night (I forgot to mention), I have been researching a tube (Hard line) that runs from the engine compartment, along side the Fuel lines, all the way back to the rear of the car.  After much research, I figured out that it was the vacuum line that controlled the vacuum actuators on the mufflers.  Saleen designed the S281 with vacuum actuated exhaust.  Exhaust flows freely out of 2 of the 4 exhaust pipes at all times.  When enough vacuum is created, the actuators open so that exhaust flows from all 4 exhaust pipes.

Unfortunately, even though this was super high tech for Saleen in 2005, these systems gave them a ton of problems, so 2005 was the only year for the vacuum actuated exhaust.

Greatfully, it would seem that the previous owner took the car in to get a 2006 Saleen exhaust installed.  There are still 4 exhaust pipes, but exhaust freely flows from all 4 at all times.  It would seem that the tech just left the vacuum line in the car, and rather than disconnect, just looped the line with a soft hose and a T so that it didn't suck up debris.

This was welcomed news as I was able to rid the car of the unused vacuum line, and clean up the engine compartment that much more.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on March 01, 2015, 04:06:51 PM
GETTING CLOSER!


-Alternator belt- Ordered
-Power steering belt- Ordered
-Lower radiator hose- Ordered
-Fill trans with fluid (supplied by Modern Driveline)
-Wire the electric fans into the harness plug from OEN fan
-Install dual fan/shroud
-Install OEM fan shroud (modified) over the aluminum shroud (for the mounting points for the Coolant and PS reservoirs)
-Install upper radiator hose- Ordered
-Install reservoirs into radiator shroud
-Install front cover to Radiator/Grill
-Bring OEM P/S hose to Davie to get a custom one built
-Lengthen the 2 wires on the CHT sender so it reaches the harness
-Pull the Fuel pump power wire through the firewall and attach to battery terminal
-Purchase Battery
-Check Fuel system for leaks and then reinstall back seat
-Bring to Coral Springs for custom headers
-Install MSD 6 ignition box
-Install Throttle return bracket(s) with larder studs purchased from Jegs (and throttle linkage that came with dual quad kit)
-Install the wiring harness for FAST EFI
-Build resistor (designed by UM professor) to go between RMP feed and harness for the tachometer
-Start car!!!!!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on March 03, 2015, 01:31:18 PM
OK I know the fun part of this Forum is posting little tid bits of problems.....

So let me get started.  Before I dis assembled the Saleens Engine, I got labels and tie straps and labeled each connection I took off (even if I knew I wasn't going to use it later) just so I knew what was what.

While looking over a whiring diagram the other night, I realized that there are 2 "harness" lines that run to the Starter.  One that looks like it runs directly from the battery and one that comes across the front of the engine (possibly from the bussed electric center) and includes pigtails for the Oil temp sender, crank trigger sensor, etc.

The harness that runs directly from the battery had a Y at the end with 2 connections (Top picture-Below).  The red power cable (C197A) and a black cable (G106) (which at the time I thought was the signal wire).

So after a few hours of google searching this problem and looking at the diagram again.... I have come to this conclusion....

Short harness that comes directly from the battery wire is the starter power wire, and the other part of that "Y" is a ground wire that should be connected to the block.

The longer harness (Bottom Picture- Below)that runs from the Bussed electric center is the signal wire (I believe) and should be connected to the signal stud on the starter (C197B).

Luckily I have not started the car (Am keeping it at TDC for as long as I can)  LOL

I am going to go home and recheck again, and rewire.......I have attached the 2 diagrams I found

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/2_zpsuhy0ngcb.gif) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/2_zpsuhy0ngcb.gif.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/5_zpsvtqte96q.gif) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/5_zpsvtqte96q.gif.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on March 03, 2015, 05:24:34 PM
I found this schematic along with the others.....  It seems my description above was correct.  The wire I have not linked in as a signal wire is a ground wire(G106).  I will detach and secure it down to the block or the motor mount.

The other wire (C197B) is the correct signal wire and I will crimp on the fitting that came with the MSD starter and secure it to the correct location.  It always bothered me that the wire I thought was a signal wire was so thick.  This confirms it.

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/7_zpsxjleawzu.gif) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/7_zpsxjleawzu.gif.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on March 04, 2015, 10:39:15 AM
OK last night I got back under the car and now I feel a little better about the wiring on the starter.  I don't know how I didn't mark this one correctly since I was tagging them 1 at a time as I unhooked them (unless it got torn off somehow), but now we have the Signal wire (C197B) heat shrinked onto the connection fitting supplied by MSD and plugged onto the signal "stud" on the Starter.  Then we have the thick red power cable (C197A) which was hooked up correctly before on its correct stud.  Then the ground cable (G106) which I had mistakenly hooked up as the signal wire previously is now bolted to a spot on the tubular K member.

Feel better now that that is sorted.

Go the correct fitting for the power steering pump I was waiting on (a pressure side hose from a 1963 Galaxie).  The hydraulic hose place down here is going to remove the pump fitting from this hose and along with the fittings for the rack on the Saleens OEM power steering hose, crimp together a custom P/S hose good for up to 2600 PSI.  Once I have this done, the car can be moved on to the header shop without puddles of power steering fluid leaking out every time the wheels are turned.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on March 04, 2015, 12:06:20 PM
Jason -

Pay close attention to those ground connections you're making to the frame.  Make sure they're good and secure!  I like to put a little bit of anti-seize on the interface as well to keep the corrosion gremlins at bay.

Nothing like a corroded, loose ground connection to make you crazy one day!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on March 04, 2015, 03:13:46 PM
tell me about it.  You could not imagine how many little ground wires snake out of the stock harnesses.  Even though I am sure many of them are for items I no longer have/use, I am going to make sure all of them are grounded to the chassis just to be sure.  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on March 07, 2015, 09:20:13 PM
OK so its Saturday night.  I went over to the custom header place today.  Really nice guy, professional shop.  Staff were all busy with really beautiful cars...  the work they were doing was awesome.  Have them picking up the car this upcoming week.  Also getting the headers "Jet coated" in black.  Should take about 3 days in which I was guaranteed the car would be stored inside the whole time.

On a different note, I got some items done this weekend.  As always, its the small things.....

I got to the Hydraulic hose place early this morning.  Got my custom Power steering hose made.  One end is the OEM hose that works with the Saleen rack, and the second part is a 3 Ft. "gates" hose rated at 2600PSI... crimped to the 1963 pwer steering pump fitting......  Wanted a little long just incase.  All hooked up and tightened.

Then I moved on to the radiator fans\shroud(s)...

Installed the dual electric fans on the aluminum shroud.  Like I stated previously, I have about 1 inch to 3/4 inch clearance between water pump pulley and the fans.  Since I needed the top of the OEM shroud for mounting the coolant reservoir and the P\S reservoir.  I ended up cutting just the top quarter of the OEM shroud off with the angle grinder and polishing it up a but with a light sanding disk (Actually looks way better than I thought it would.)  Was able to mount it right over the aluminum one using slightly longer attachment bolts (M6-50MM).

Once that was done, I moved on to wiring the aluminum fans into the existing harness plug.  Got them all crimped and heat shrinked.  I plan on getting the black wire tubes to wrap the wires up and tie wrap them out of the way (to make sure they dont get damaged by the alternator pulley.)

Then I attached the P\S reservoir to the shroud, and attached it to its cooler line and return line, added P/S fluid and its good to go until I get the car running and then I can do the whole Clock to clock and add fluid.

I drilled/ Tapped and epoxied the barb fitting onto the coolant hose fitting.  This was needed to connect to the coolant reservoir so the system can be filled (and let air from the system escape.  I am going to wait 24 hours for it to dry and sand it smooth, and paint it black.  Not it wont be seen, but I might as well make it nice if I am going to do it.

I am going to wait until i  get the car back from the headers shop before I installl the MSD and the FAST computer. 

please see the pictures below....  difficult to get details now since the engine bay is so full now.

This is a shot of the water pump pulley (and its cover) and the aluminum shroud/fans.  Tight, but worked perfectly.
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/88064804-E262-4B22-AD15-CAEFE3AC7FB6_zpsna8vexqo.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/88064804-E262-4B22-AD15-CAEFE3AC7FB6_zpsna8vexqo.jpg.html)

This is a picture of the new P\S hose.  It comes up from where the oil filter is, its cut a soft cushion clamp holding its arch and then dips down to connect to the 1963 Galaxie pump. 
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/985DA2AA-1107-4133-B4D2-310647800C36_zpsm662pxku.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/985DA2AA-1107-4133-B4D2-310647800C36_zpsm662pxku.jpg.html)


This is a shot of the P\S reservoir installed and connected.. and you can see across the top the 2 bolts that will hold the collant tank.  Also the front deck cover (where the latch is).
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/E4C847E9-0D5A-451A-B586-7967FB5109A6_zpshlev7l1f.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/E4C847E9-0D5A-451A-B586-7967FB5109A6_zpshlev7l1f.jpg.html)


This last picture shows you how the OEM shroud is on top of the aluminum shroud.  From just about any angle, it looks completely stock, but if you stick your face down there, you will see the 2 electric fans.
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/CC046F58-E6CF-40D9-9729-DA3BC83A72AD_zpszzz7bh4h.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/CC046F58-E6CF-40D9-9729-DA3BC83A72AD_zpszzz7bh4h.jpg.html)


-Alternator belt- Ordered
-Power steering belt- Ordered
-Lower radiator hose- Ordered
-Fill trans with fluid (supplied by Modern Driveline)
-Wire the electric fans into the harness plug from OEM fan
-Install dual fan/shroud
-Install OEM fan shroud (modified) over the aluminum shroud (for the mounting points for the Coolant and PS reservoirs)
-Install upper radiator hose- Ordered
-Install reservoirs into radiator shroud
-Install front cover to Radiator/Grill
-Bring OEM P/S hose to Davie to get a custom one built
-Lengthen the 2 wires on the CHT sender so it reaches the harness
-Pull the Fuel pump power wire through the firewall and attach to battery terminal
-Purchase Battery
-Check Fuel system for leaks and then reinstall back seat
-Bring to Coral Springs for custom headers
-Install MSD 6 ignition box
-Install Throttle return bracket(s) with larder studs purchased from Jegs (and throttle linkage that came with dual quad kit)
-Install the wiring harness for FAST EFI
-Build resistor (designed by UM professor) to go between RMP feed and harness for the tachometer
-Start car!!!!!
Modify message
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 05:05:42 PM by cobracammer »
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: thatdarncat on March 08, 2015, 12:58:13 AM
It's a good idea waiting on the MSD and FAST computer until the header welding is done. Although I'm sure you'll have the battery disconnected and most of the header welding will be done off the car it's best not to take a chance of any delicate electronics getting damaged. I'd even suggest thinking if there are any other electronic systems on the car you may want to unplug before sending it off. Maybe others on the forum might want to weigh in with their opinion. Your project is really turning out well.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: fastback 427 on March 08, 2015, 09:29:14 AM
We welded up a run stand some years back. The only thing we had for mock up was a running engine at the time so we used it. The stand got finished and all was good. A couple years later we tore the running engine down and upon inspection the bearings looked strange.  They had spots on about half of them . To us it looked like the voltage was "arcing" between the surfaces. Maybe a bad ground? Maybe it wasn't that at all, but I'm a little funny while welding with the engine in the car.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on March 10, 2015, 09:19:43 AM
I weld on computer controlled equipment all the time at work. Mostly because it's just near impossible to disconnect everything or it's impractical. Newer cars have so much electronics that the same can be said for them. The trick I use is to make double sure that the ground is attached VERY near, and preferably directly to, the piece you're welding. That keeps current surges from going throughout the vehicle since it is looking for the nearest path to ground, which should be to the grounding clamp very near. I have never had a problem, but I'm not implying any guarantees either.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on March 10, 2015, 09:05:27 PM
OK update.  I spoke with the shop.  He expects Saturday will be the day in which he will be able to get my car in the shop (and keep it indoors).  He is calling tomorrow to get me a final price with the Black Jet hot coating and the headers with O2 bung.  Also he said these headers will be V-Band?  Meaning no gasket after the collectors?

2 days now with all of the fluids in the car.... Coolant, P/S, Oil, Window washing fluid, Trans fluid, Rear axle fluid......  NO leaks.  Yes its a small victory, but a step in the right direction.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on March 16, 2015, 11:46:17 AM
-Alternator belt- Ordered
-Power steering belt- Ordered
-Lower radiator hose- Ordered
-Fill trans with fluid (supplied by Modern Driveline)
-Wire the electric fans into the harness plug from OEM fan
-Install dual fan/shroud
-Install OEM fan shroud (modified) over the aluminum shroud (for the mounting points for the Coolant and PS reservoirs)
-Install upper radiator hose- Ordered
-Install reservoirs into radiator shroud
-Install front cover to Radiator/Grill
-Bring OEM P/S hose to Davie to get a custom one built
-Lengthen the 2 wires on the CHT sender so it reaches the harness
-Pull the Fuel pump power wire through the firewall and attach to battery terminal
-Purchase Battery
-Check Fuel system for leaks and then reinstall back seat

-Bring to Coral Springs for custom headers
-Install MSD 6 ignition box
-Install Throttle return bracket(s) with larder studs purchased from Jegs (and throttle linkage that came with dual quad kit)
-Install the wiring harness for FAST EFI
-Build resistor (designed by UM professor) to go between RMP feed and harness for the tachometer
-Start car!!!!!


In addition, I actually swapped out the sparkplugs on the engine this weekend.  I had Autolite sparkplugs in there and bout 8 E3 sparkplugs.  I like these new E3's because they are designed so you don't have to adjust the spark gap, and they are supposed to produce a more efficient spark(i.e. more off a fuel burn).  Saw them tested on Power nation TV, and thought with the combination of the FAST EFI and its associated O2 sensor, this would definitely be a plus.....

Still awaiting word from the header shop as to when he will have room to have my car up on a lift (and stored indoors).  Dying for it to be DONE!!!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on March 17, 2015, 11:47:19 AM
Just got off the phone with John over at Yellow Engine Supplies.  Jay turned me on to these guys for the spark plug well covers for the Cammer.  I originally got a set of well covers from Precision oil pumps, but when I finally got around to installing then, they were so small, that they went right down into the copper tubes and didn't even touch the sides! 

John  is expecting a new shipment of his covers in the next few weeks.  He took my Phone number and I am all set to receive a set as soon as they come in.  For my luck down here in Florida, I will have lizards living in them (and dying in them) if I don't have the plugs.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: rockittsled on March 18, 2015, 01:03:25 AM
....  For my luck down here in Florida, I will have lizards living in them (and dying in them) if I don't have the plugs.
Don't kill the lizards!!  They eat Camaros, I mean cockroaches!  8)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on March 19, 2015, 09:30:02 AM
OK excited.  Flatbed is coming on Saturday Morning.  Header shop is going to get started on the headers and will send them out for Jet hot coating.  Once its back, its just the MSD ignition box and the FAST computer and I will finally get to turn her over!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on March 23, 2015, 07:56:02 AM
Car is in the shop!  Chris (The owner over at AC carcraft) was telling me that he usually does individual exhaust piped to each exhaust port on the head.  I guess this would make it easier to remove the headers if you had them snaking all along and through the tubular cross member.  However I also supplied him with the raw steel header flanges and a set of exhaust gaskets.  He said he should have them done in a few days.  Also, rather than have the car just sitting there after he is done, I can have it shipped back to my home while the headers are sent out for the ceramic coating.

I am literally weeks from starting this car!

One thing I was trying to figure out is this.....  If you look at the pictures of the completed engine bay, you damn sure cannot see the balancer (with timing marks) from any angle......  How will I even be able to set the timing?

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on March 23, 2015, 10:32:57 PM
Make another pointer from the bottom or wherever you can see it and remark the balancer :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: thatdarncat on March 23, 2015, 11:31:17 PM
It's pretty common on race headers on a chassis car ( as opposed to a dragster ) to have individual tubes, or maybe at most paired tubes. He can probably still use your flanges as a starting point. We're all getting excited too, good luck.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on March 24, 2015, 03:05:10 PM
Make another pointer from the bottom or wherever you can see it and remark the balancer :)

Thanks Ross, that's a good Idea.  I can grab a 7" Ford FE balancer tape (Like $4.00 from jegs) and from under the car, remark TDC.  It would just mean timing the car on my back while the car is on Jack stands.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on March 24, 2015, 03:06:40 PM
It's pretty common on race headers on a chassis car ( as opposed to a dragster ) to have individual tubes, or maybe at most paired tubes. He can probably still use your flanges as a starting point. We're all getting excited too, good luck.

Thanks Kevin.  I am actually stopping by their shop tonight at 8 to drop off a deposit.  I am hoping its up on a lift as I would love to see what I have done from a better vantage point.  If it is (and he lets me) I will take some photos.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on March 25, 2015, 09:14:12 AM
OK unfortunately no pictures as the car hasn't been started yet (not up on a lift).  They are expecting the 2" pipes to come in either today or tomorrow.  I did want to mention something neat.  The owner of the shop is friends with Mr. Hendricks from Hendricks motorsports.  Oddly enough, he came down to visit just yesterday and Chris, the owner of the shop, said that Mr. Hendricks was out admiring my car......  I mean Engine  HAHAHA
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: lovehamr on April 03, 2015, 08:43:40 AM
It'd be hard for any motorhead not to stop and admire your engine!  Any news?

Steve
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 03, 2015, 03:29:44 PM
 8)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Dave427SOHC on April 06, 2015, 08:48:29 AM
Im sure we all understand your anxiousness but be patient!! Other jobs couldve had taken longer people get sick.. Just saying.. You dont want to be a thorn in their side and then their attitude could flow over to the job.. and you dont want that.. If it cant be started in the next few days maybe get a explanation and then get a flat bed if its not what you want to hear.. Some times shops take things in and then say whoooaaa oh boy and wish they didnt take jobs in.. Im sure there reputable and are the right shop as you did your research.. Good luck hope it comes together soon. Haste makes waste  I learned the hard way.. And im sure you dont really want to hear this but i wish i had someone to settle me down when my anxiety got the best of me..  :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: fe66comet on April 06, 2015, 09:20:29 AM
I started building my FE 4 years ago, still haven't done much on my Comet. Now I am stuffing a 445 in a Ranger mini that I hope to at least have on the track before fall. I have to say you bit off a huge project and if you rush a build up usually you end up missing or doing things you would have done different and end up having to redo stuff. Just take a step at a time or the project gets overwhelming and you you end up loosing the original idea. For me it is to enjoy taking the time to build something with your own hands and enjoy what you created, of course I have a kazillion unfinished projects laying around due to lack of funds so I guess I can't say too much LOL.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 07, 2015, 09:19:53 AM
Yea, I understand.  I definately dont want to piss someone off who is doing work on the car.  And on the other hand, as its the last piece before I start the car and start having fun, I dont want to waste time since 3 days has now turn into 3 weeks (possibly more).  I will keep everyone posted.  Hopefully she's tucked back in my garage by this Saturday while the headers are off getting their ceramic coating.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 08, 2015, 04:38:30 PM
OK! Progress on the headers!  Chris at the shop is currently knee deep in my headers. He was kind enough to send over some photos:
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/8092F76B-8363-4C60-BD80-8B5BC53564A6_zpswqkdw7h2.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/8092F76B-8363-4C60-BD80-8B5BC53564A6_zpswqkdw7h2.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/E55EEC84-0795-49CE-AB24-A57A0E9CD158_zpsrqj0hthr.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/E55EEC84-0795-49CE-AB24-A57A0E9CD158_zpsrqj0hthr.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/BF6BCA75-3B55-448D-9CB1-790FF2B97B92_zpsucab1v5j.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/BF6BCA75-3B55-448D-9CB1-790FF2B97B92_zpsucab1v5j.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/A01CB00E-B8F7-41F3-89E3-A1D86EEA6CD8_zpshrfqsysz.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/A01CB00E-B8F7-41F3-89E3-A1D86EEA6CD8_zpshrfqsysz.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Jim Comet on April 09, 2015, 12:23:30 PM
What size are the collectors? The picture makes them look smaller than the rest of the exhaust in the last picture. Jim
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 09, 2015, 01:01:25 PM
I am not totally 100% sure. I know that the primaries are 2" and I believe the collectors are 3"? But needed reducers to connect to the stock Saleen X pipe (Which I believe are 2.5").... And rest of the exhaust system.  I know that the primaries will be fitted to the collectors with the "Slip in" style.  They will not be welded.  That may be why they look like it steps down from 2" at the collector.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 15, 2015, 04:30:58 PM
Ok. Chris at the shop said I will have my car back this weekend. He sent pictures of the 1 completed header ( pass side) and will have the drivers side done tomorrow. Still have to send them out for the ceramic coating, but nice already!

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/EF45722F-9B87-45E2-922C-D5C99BC6237D_zpsofkpvdnk.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/EF45722F-9B87-45E2-922C-D5C99BC6237D_zpsofkpvdnk.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on April 15, 2015, 08:48:00 PM
You're going with dual O pipes?

 (http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q128/ScotiaFE/images5_zps9cngleq5.jpg) (http://s135.photobucket.com/user/ScotiaFE/media/images5_zps9cngleq5.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 16, 2015, 02:07:33 PM
Not sure what a dual O pipe is  LOL

If your talking about those loops of wire loom, that is a sensor (I believe the lock out solenoid) for the 6 speed.  I left it long incase I did it wrong.  I actually left all the wiring I did longer than necessary incase I needed to go back and fix it.

When everything is proven to work, I will go back, and make the wiring "Pretty"  LOL

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on April 16, 2015, 04:20:16 PM
O-pipes go from one side of the headers to the other side. They use the exhaust from one bank to stop the intake charge from entering the cylinders on the other bank. This increases fuel mileage considerably because the car will no longer run...lol ;D

From what I can see in the pictures, they look to be doing a pretty decent job...on a job that would NOT be fun to do. Ceramic coating was an excellent choice, but even then those heat shields will be getting a workout!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 16, 2015, 04:32:21 PM
LOL  Got it.  I actually stopped by there last Saturday and he said he has been trying to keep them as tight as possible (in working with my original Flange) so that I can easily take them in and out of the car if necessary without scratching them all up.

Im impressed.  Even though I have the tubular cross member in there, there is seriously a real estate issue still present.  I doubt seriously there would even be a possibility to put headers on the car with the OEM K member.  That thing was Hulking.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on April 16, 2015, 07:05:50 PM
It looks nice 8).I made the exhaust system on
My Model A yesterday im glad there is just two
90 degree and two 45 dergee bends on that.
And you dont need to jack it up to crawl under
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 16, 2015, 08:07:06 PM
I am definitely interested in learning.  I purchased those Heddman headers (which did not work).  I never returned them, so I may chop them up as a practice tool...  Learn which setting on my MIG works best, pressure test them when I am done, Etc....

This Cammer Saleen is definitely not my last......  My interest in FE's and hotrodding is growing by the day!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 17, 2015, 10:38:07 AM
OK boys and girls...,. today was good news.  Chris over at AC Carcraft gave me the call.  Headers are done and are going to be shipped out to get ceramic coated in Matt black.  I have the flatbed picking it up at 9AM (His suggestion) and it will be in my garage again by 9:15am  LOL  Below is 2 shots of the drivers side headers that he finished up today:

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/903AF478-269F-4407-A52B-C70A95F5E328_zpsbwxe1cio.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/903AF478-269F-4407-A52B-C70A95F5E328_zpsbwxe1cio.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/C4F5AF04-CBFB-4B07-AECD-BD58191A6F6B_zpsiejxqeja.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/C4F5AF04-CBFB-4B07-AECD-BD58191A6F6B_zpsiejxqeja.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cattleFEeder on April 17, 2015, 12:48:46 PM
Very nice, hope you have a trouble free first fire up.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on April 17, 2015, 02:21:55 PM
Pipes look great Jason!
Those boys have tacked up a few pipes before.
I guess muffler bearings would too much. ::)

SFI. I notice you have the SFI bell. But you have the socket head cap screws that came in the box installed.
That is fine for street only, but is a no go for the track. You must have Hex head bolts in the mounting holes. just an fyi
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 17, 2015, 06:22:17 PM
Good to know.  This car wont be used on the track....  just going to prowl up and down I-95 looking for unsuspecting Z06's  LOL

While the pipes are away getting ceramic coated, I am going to hook up the computer, install a throttle cable, and install the "circuit " Jay helped me build so that the tach would play nice with the Saleen Gauge.

I can almost see the finish line!

Videos of car running to come!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 18, 2015, 05:23:21 PM
Awesome!  Car is back in the garage.  I have decided to get the car running before I send the Headers off for ceramic coating.  Have a place local that can do it , but wanted to see this thing fire up (waited long enough!)

I have a quick question.....  the FAST EFI Computer says to place it on an area that does not have "noisy Electronics "....  Rea;lly the only place I have left is on top of the fuse box on the passenger side engine bay.  Its a large black plastic box and its a flat surface, but I wasnt sure if fuses thow off electromagnetic noise?  Thoughts?

I already have everything wired Except for plugging in the EFI harness to the computer.  I need to just install the throttle cable and then I am done!  I need the throttle cable for the set up of the EFI as it asks you to hold the pedal down at full throttle wile setting the initial program.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on April 19, 2015, 10:39:37 AM
Awesome!  Car is back in the garage.  I have decided to get the car running before I send the Headers off for ceramic coating.  Have a place local that can do it , but wanted to see this thing fire up (waited long enough!)

I have a quick question.....  the FAST EFI Computer says to place it on an area that does not have "noisy Electronics "....  Rea;lly the only place I have left is on top of the fuse box on the passenger side engine bay.  Its a large black plastic box and its a flat surface, but I wasnt sure if fuses thow off electromagnetic noise?  Thoughts?

I already have everything wired Except for plugging in the EFI harness to the computer.  I need to just install the throttle cable and then I am done!  I need the throttle cable for the set up of the EFI as it asks you to hold the pedal down at full throttle wile setting the initial program.

I doubt the fuse box will have any significant noise, unless of course it has any electromechanical solenoids, which I doubt nowadays. 

Also, make a promise to yourself now to pull those headers after you get it running, you'll want to get those coated for heat management.  It makes a world of difference.  If I remember correctly you were sort of on the fence, don't let the fun of the car talk you out of it once it runs! :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on April 19, 2015, 10:56:03 AM
+1 on the header coating.  Also, just for safety I put a big capacitor across the power and ground connections, right at the EFI box, to minimize any noise issues.  This has made a world of difference on the dyno, and also on one of my cars.  See the link below:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-8830/overview/
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 19, 2015, 07:37:45 PM
No worries gentlemen...  Headers are definately getting coated ....  for the $$ they cost, I would be a moron not to coat them  LOL

OK on to more updates.  I got the FAST EFI all hooked up.  Its not permanently attached to the Bussed electrical box yet, but as soon as its running, I will permanently secure it.  I turned the hand held on in the car, and went to the error section, and luckily there are no errors.  All seems well.

Then on to the MSD 6A box.  This was also not permanently secured.  All wires were left at full length so I am not limited to where I can put it.  When you see the pictures bellow, you will understand what little space I have to put these things.

One thing that got me was finding a 12V switched source to fee the MSD and FAST comuter.  In the end, I ended up running a wire to the interior passenger side kick panel fuse box.  I know for sure which of these were switched 12V.  All the connections were sealed with heat shrink.

Now when the key is in the ON position, the red LED light on the MSD box comes on.  The LED light on the FAST computer will not turn on until the car is running (as per the instruction manual).

What I will say (and it really hit my confidence HARD)....  I went for it and turned the key with the coil plug off to hear the engine turn over.  When I turned the key, nothing.  One click......  and then when I turned the key back off, just another One Click.

After discussing this with my father, we think its the ground on the starter.  I grounded it to the K member, but we think maybe the black powder coating is not allowing for a solid ground.  I am going to crawl back under and sand it down to bare metal and re-tighten.  fingers crossed, that will be the issue.

Last thing I need to do is install a throttle cable.  I ordered a 36" throttle cable, but this is going to require a little fabrication.  The Saleen had "throttle by wire", which is like electronic throttle control.  There was no cable, so the pedal has not place for it.  I am going to take the pedal off, and make a little throttle bracket to bolt to the pedal that will accept the Clevis pin connection on the new cable.  Hopefully this will be easy.  The only thing I was thinking was about wide open throttle.  I was curious how far I can get the throttle open with the pedal (or if its adjustable)  When I floor the pedal, I wonder if I can adjust the throttle blades so that they are open all the way, and then when the pedal is fullly released, the blades are fully closed.

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/59E594D2-7C14-41BA-86B2-9CA63623B486_zpsokxodlnq.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/59E594D2-7C14-41BA-86B2-9CA63623B486_zpsokxodlnq.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/8C1F9EA4-44ED-48F9-B257-1E8068A356A2_zpsowt7hgxc.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/8C1F9EA4-44ED-48F9-B257-1E8068A356A2_zpsowt7hgxc.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/6F86F16F-630C-412E-96CB-D8C27350F51E_zpsmf6a3koy.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/6F86F16F-630C-412E-96CB-D8C27350F51E_zpsmf6a3koy.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/41CA7C97-5B80-49B2-8848-AED7C2E2F9E2_zpsa2itpgvy.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/41CA7C97-5B80-49B2-8848-AED7C2E2F9E2_zpsa2itpgvy.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/732FCD8A-9CDC-4E5B-8B03-D318A2622E78_zpstv8xfdbt.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/732FCD8A-9CDC-4E5B-8B03-D318A2622E78_zpstv8xfdbt.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 20, 2015, 12:59:38 PM
Horrible News.  I went under the car and removed the ground bolt from the K member for the starter.  After a few minuted of sanding, I got some shiny metal showing and rebolted it back on.

I got in the car and pushed the clutch pedal down to Start the car, and I had a blow out on one of the stainless lines (From what I can see).  It looks like a burnt spot on the line.......  I think the header guy must have burnt it while welding up the headers!!!  I am at a loss at this point.  That would mean pulling the driveshaft, the transmission and replacing the line.

Lost here.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on April 20, 2015, 02:29:35 PM
Man, that sucks.  Do you mean the hydraulic clutch line, from the master cylinder to throwout bearing?  No way to get in there and remove the line?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 20, 2015, 03:45:57 PM
Hi Jay.  Yes its the Hydraulic feed line.  Its stainless steel braided line.  There is a spot where the line almost touches the transmission fork window area.  There appears to be a burn mark there where an arc  jumped, and fluid now squirts from there.  I cant engauge the clutch, and thus cannot start the car (I believe).

I am unsure if I can get the line off without taking the transmission off, but I will def try.  I ordered a new replacement line ( header guy will pay he said).  It was 30- something dollars.  I will try and just remove it through the 7Oclock fork window.... reseal the fitting and replace. 

Would I be correct in assuming that without the clutch fingers depressed, the starter wont be able to turn?  When I tun the key, it sounds alive, but wont turn over.  I was hoping that it was just that the clutch wasnt disengaging due to the leaky line.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: drdano on April 20, 2015, 04:00:46 PM
The transmission wont go from in-gear to neutral just sitting there?  I would think you could get it to pop into neutral from in gear.

The starter can turn the motor over with the trans in neutral, but you've likely got a neutral safety switch you'll need to bypass from the OEM car.   ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on April 20, 2015, 05:26:22 PM
The motor should turn over just fine in neutral

Did you try turning the motor over with a breaker bar?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on April 20, 2015, 05:30:26 PM
Yeah, the car has a safety switch built into the clutch. It will not start or turn over unless the clutch is depressed, and depressed FULLY! Kinda odd that the header guy would have burnt it. He was TIG welding and they don't throw sparks or anything that could burn the line unless he was RIGHT on top of it.

Sorry to hear about that. Hopefully it can be done without pulling the tranny. BUT, if it has to be pulled, don't get too discouraged. I ran my engine for 20 seconds last year after installing it, then realized I had a problem with the clutch rubbing the arm. I had to pull the tranny to fix it. Sucks, that's for sure, but you will overcome it....and it's still early in the year :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on April 20, 2015, 06:00:04 PM
That sucks but we've all had set backs.
That's part of what makes it so darn cool when you finally get it done.
Feel ya brother but it's part of the game.
Head down, roll stone.
Whack it in neutral.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 20, 2015, 06:07:19 PM
OK here is where I am.  I want to see the starter working, so I looked online and decided to jump the starter.  Start there and work my way back to turning the key.

So Since the starter is grounded to the K member, and has a constant 12 volt power source, I jumped a wire from the battery to the 12V signal wire....  and that was my click!  It seems like the starter shaft thrusts out, but doesnt mesh up with the flywheel??  I am unsure how to remedy this.  Its an MSD starter specifically for a Ford FE.  Unfortunately there is no way to see once its installled into the block/bell housing.  There is no viewing window to measure the gear mesh... etc like in the instructions.

So I guess what I really want to know is this....  on a starter, does the gear shaft need to be fully extended before it starts to turn?  I am curious when I jump it why I dont hear it spinning.....  its just a thud/click.  If it does not spin until its fully extended (which makes sense to me) then I have an issue where the shaft shooots out, the teeth dont mesh, and wont allow it to fully extend and start to turn the engine.

If, however, the starter shaft is spinning at full speed as soon as it gets power, then I have no idea why I dont hear it spinning.... and just hear a click/thud.

If anyone can answer...  1st, the spinning question....  and 2nd, how I can shim the starter with a Quicktime bell housing that does not have a window where I would be able to see it while its bolted up?

Please advise.  It would seem that when I push the clutch pedal down and turn the key, the click I was hearing was the starter, so thats a plus.   Now I just need to figure out whats going on?>
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on April 20, 2015, 06:40:34 PM
Have you checked the battery? The starter should spin and engage if the solenoid is clicking, UNLESS the battery is so low that it won't spin the starter. Otherwise it SEEMS that you may have a bad starter. The spinning of the shaft is what kicks out the drive gear, so if it doesn't spin it can't engage.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 20, 2015, 07:19:06 PM
Is there any way this is still a bad ground connection?  The MSD starter is brand new out of the box.  Online it looks like the solenoid makes the shaft come out, but the starter motor makes it spin. Is there a way ( assuming the groung is not great) that the solenoid would engage, but the starter motor would not turn on?

There is not much room under there, but before i pull the starter out, im going to try to dremmel that bolt tab until its shiny metal.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on April 20, 2015, 07:36:44 PM
Just guessing, but I doubt its the ground.  Ross suggested you try to turn the engine over by hand, which is a good idea; put a socket and breaker bar on the big bolt on the front of the crank, and try to turn the engine with the breaker bar, in the clockwise direction.  You should be able to get it to move.  If not, something has jammed it up.  Maybe the transmission is jamming the engine somehow.  Try this test first, Jason, and if the engine does move, I think Doug is right that it could be the battery.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 20, 2015, 07:38:58 PM
Another weird thing i checked was after trying for like 5 minutes of turning the key, the starter motor was cold to the touch. I would have thought if it was working and fighting a load, it would heat up
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on April 20, 2015, 09:02:29 PM
Have you checked the battery? The starter should spin and engage if the solenoid is clicking, UNLESS the battery is so low that it won't spin the starter. Otherwise it SEEMS that you may have a bad starter. The spinning of the shaft is what kicks out the drive gear, so if it doesn't spin it can't engage.
Never did have much luck with those red batts.
It's the batt or starter. I would boost it.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: drdano on April 20, 2015, 09:48:32 PM
The click is solenoid, and if the battery isn't charged enough, you'll get enough power to collapse the solenoid, but not spin the starter.  I'd start by checking the battery.  In the meantime, take the others advice here and roll the motor over with a socket and breaker bar.  Had I done that when I had "clutch problems" on my 428, I wouldn't have smoked the thrust bearing out of the motor caused by my transmission input shaft being too long and burying itself into the pilot of the crank. 

One theory on the scorched hydraulic line:  ground wasn't on the header when the guy was welding...thus the electrical current was jumping that gap between the bell and the line.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 21, 2015, 10:16:18 AM
OK thank you all for posting.  I am going to try a little of everything (one at a time).  I did test the battery already.  Its an optima red top and its on a "Battery tender" trickle charger.  I took it to the autoparts store and they say it holds a charge just fine.

Next, I am going to take a dremmel and grind down the "tab" on the tubular K member I have the starter grounded to.  The more I read the more I hear how any powdercoating can screw up a ground connection.  The thing with the tubular K members is that they have this "Super" coating on them.  Its got to be the thickest powder coating I have ever come across.... I guess that's good since the underside of the car gets a beating from the elements.  I am going to grind both sides of the tab down to bare metal and re bolt on the ground cable. (I believe the original ground location for the Saleen engine was the actual block itself, but it wont reach the Cammer block.)

Before I try the starter again (after the thorough powder coating removal), I am going to try and turn the engine (clockwise) with a breaker bar and socket.  Given the fact that this baby is literally shoehorned in the engine bay, I am not sure If I can even get to it (I definitely can not even see the balancer from the underside).  Possibly taking off a few skid plates and such may give me access).  I guess if I can not reach the balancer with the breaker bar, I could put the car in 1st gear and roll it forward down the driveway?  This would turn the engine.  I am guessing if its locked up it wont roll forward?....  that would be a last resort.

I keep reading that bad ground connections on a starter make the solenoid click (because they don't require that much current to operate), but the starter motor itself wont activate because it needs much more current.... and with a bad ground connection, you just get a click.  I really hope at this point its just the ground.

in other news, I already ordered a replacement stainless braided clutch supply line.  It looks like if I can loosen and retighten the fitting through the clutch fork window, I wont need to remove the transmission.  I don't think I can get much of a turn on the wrench, so it may be slow going.  After I get it removed, I can re-Teflon tape the fitting back onto the braided line, and then hopefully slowly snug it back down through the same fork window.  Keep you all posted
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on April 21, 2015, 10:40:41 AM
Bad ground to the engine can caused the burnt clutch suply line
the steel braided line worked as ground strap
I have seen speedo ,clutch,throtlle cables burnt up  caused by bad ground
One time i changed engine in a Mercedes Diesel i used the stock ground
strap stock ground point but the strap was thigtened at a slight different angle
Starter just clicked and clicked and smoke started to pour out under the dashboard
 The speedo cable melted itself to the wires for the brakelight so brakelight
was constantly on and i had no clue wath hapened until i saw the crispy
speedo cable under the car
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 21, 2015, 10:47:59 AM
HAHAHA  HEO!  Just as I was coming on to post that!  OK....  I did some reading.  I definitely have the ground screwed up!  The wire I grounded to the K member down by the starter was originally bolted to the Saleen Block!  It wont reach the cammer block, so I grounded it to the tubular K member.  Its just that!!!  I also read online that the starter does not have a ground wire as it grounds itself through the block....  since I did not attach the ground back to the block, but to the tubular K member, the starter is not grounded.... and the current found the ground by going through the engine.... across to the bell housing and to the stainless line since it touches the cars chassis! 

CRAP and Hooray all at the same time.  OK so I need to (somehow) take that ground wire I have bolted to the K member and get it bolted to the block .... fairly close to the starter location!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: drdano on April 21, 2015, 11:31:11 AM
An external star lock washer will go through powder coating pretty easily.  :-)

(https://img2.fastenal.com/productimages/33770_hr1c.jpg)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on April 21, 2015, 01:13:55 PM
The engine needs a good ground to the chassie
its often like this.
Ground strap from one of the starter bolts to
some bolt on the frame/unibody.
 .K members are sometimes rubber isolated from the unibody
I dont know if the Saleen is like that since i never
saw one IRL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on April 21, 2015, 01:22:50 PM
If it is a ground issue, then you can just add a second cable, from the ground point on the K member up to a bolt on the block.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on April 21, 2015, 01:41:45 PM
But are the k-member solid or rubber mounted to the unibody?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 21, 2015, 01:51:04 PM
That K member has a super thick powder coat.  I have a whole loom of really thick battery cable from back when I put the battery in my 68 Fastback in the trunk.  I like what was stated before.  I will run a piece of this thick cable from a bolt on the starter straight across to the frame rail.  I will sand down the frame rail in that spot to ensure a good connection.

I am so happy that this basically solved both issues (in theory), but so upset at myself that it burned up the stainless braided clutch feed line.

If this fix works, then the last item is just to make a little bracket to bolt on to the gas pedal to work with the throttle cable I have being shipped.  After that, its time to re-connect the coil wire, and fire her up!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on April 21, 2015, 05:12:45 PM
I still like the idea of adding a 2nd strap ala' the old OEM Ford 'basket weave' design (broad, flat and woven)  that went from the firewall to the back of the block or head. Can't hurt to have too much here!

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=88367&d=1263870337
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on April 21, 2015, 08:24:47 PM
Hopefully you told the header guy that it wasn't his fault?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 21, 2015, 10:04:42 PM
Yes. Told the header guy not to worry as it was an issue i caused. In other news, i picked up a woven ground strap tonight. It was tight, but i removed the lower starter bolt and attached one end.  The other end i placed under my K member ground location.....  I removed the coil wire again and prepared to test again. I wanted to get it sorted out before replacing the clutch line again.  I hopped in, pushed the clutch pedal down..... And voila, starter turned the car over!  Slow for the first 1 second and then easier and easier ( i am guessing lubrication helped as it turned).
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on April 21, 2015, 10:44:27 PM
Jason -

By "tight" I hope you mean the workspace to install the ground strap was tight.  If the strap itself was tight to the block you WILL tear it in half the first time you romp on that engine.  The motor mounts allow the engine to move around more than most people expect.

Best of luck whacking the moles.

- Bill
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 22, 2015, 09:52:03 AM
Hi Bill,  yes, the workspace.  He built the headers around the starter.  As you can imagine, not much room in there.  Ground strap had plenty of extra, and the metal mesh of the strap is wrapped in a thick plastic coating to prevent it from creating an arc somewhere in the slack. 

My clutch supply line was shipped last night along with a 36" throttle cable.  Im going to tackle that this weekend
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 22, 2015, 03:56:05 PM
Went into the garage to let it turn over again ( double check my work sort of speak) and found that the electrical tape coating on the braided ground strap melted off.  Honestly sending an arc anywhere throught the car again scares the crap out of me. So I cut a piece of battery terminal wire (2 gauge) i think and put fittings on both ends. I realize this is overkill on thickness, but these wires are made to take this kind of voltage and since they are sheathed in rubber ( heat resistant) it will reduce my chances of anythink like this on the future. Keys are in the photo to show scale

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/64F338DE-39C0-4F33-ACB3-03F89B7950EF_zpsz5qwxvjh.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/64F338DE-39C0-4F33-ACB3-03F89B7950EF_zpsz5qwxvjh.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on April 22, 2015, 05:37:26 PM
I think at this point you should probably rethink how you are running ground wires to make sure the most draw is addressed the easiest

I would connect the negative side of the battery directly to the block and ensure that the connection is clear of paint and its a good contact

Then I would ground the body to the engine and potentially the body to the neg post of the battery if the battery cable has an extra jumper wire off it (not required but if it's there)

The starter will take the most voltage, and them you can be sure it has the ground directly.

Also, no benefit in turning over an engine until you are ready to fire it, it just turns dry.  I'd say set some time aside and fix it, then fire it.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on April 22, 2015, 05:55:48 PM
Went into the garage to let it turn over again ( double check my work sort of speak) and found that the electrical tape coating on the braided ground strap melted off.  Honestly sending an arc anywhere throught the car again scares the crap out of me. So I cut a piece of battery terminal wire (2 gauge) i think and put fittings on both ends. I realize this is overkill on thickness, but these wires are made to take this kind of voltage and since they are sheathed in rubber ( heat resistant) it will reduce my chances of anythink like this on the future. Keys are in the photo to show scale

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/64F338DE-39C0-4F33-ACB3-03F89B7950EF_zpsz5qwxvjh.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/64F338DE-39C0-4F33-ACB3-03F89B7950EF_zpsz5qwxvjh.jpg.html)

I'd say whoa but for a different reason. Perhaps some tranny binding has loaded the starter so heavily it's current draw is huge. Remember, you told us that at the very 1st hit, it spun over quite slowly. I'd make damn sure the engine turns over freely in neutral with that big beam wrench & socket on the crankshaft pulley bolt. Best to be sure, I say.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 22, 2015, 08:37:17 PM
Alright,  also since I was under there, and the clutch line comes tomorrow, I wanted to finally see if I can get to the line without taking the trans out. I was able to get a wrench in there ( just barely) , but the I could only get like 1/6 turn... So i got my head rested on the creeper, and settled down for like 1000 turns. After 3 turns, i realized if i dropped the wrench, it would fall down into the bell housing and I wouldnt be able to get it. Went back into the house, got a long shoelace, tied one end to the wrench and the other to my wrist.  About 1 hour later, i got it off. Since it needs to have tefalon tape on it before the new hose goes on, i am going to get my wife to use her tiny hands to wrap some tape around it before I spend another hour tightening and bleeding the air out.

Another bit of info on the ground wire... I got it swapped out with the strap, and it works awesome!!!  I turned the engine over 3 or 4 times, then crawled back under to see.  The battery cable wasnt even hot. Plus the thick plastic coating helped not to ac anywjere. As stated above, i will dap a few more grounds around as i progess
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on April 22, 2015, 08:45:37 PM
Crows foot....

https://www.google.ca/search?q=crows+foot+wrench&biw=1585&bih=797&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=MU44VYz0Mo7moAT1yYCYAg&ved=0CDsQsAQ
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 23, 2015, 08:35:56 AM
Also wanted to let everyone know that the last time I turned the starter over, it sounded normally. The engine is not hung up and my previous description of the starter straining noise was most likely due to the battery. Battery all recharged and engine sounded like its dying to atart right up. As soon as i fix the throttle link issue, i will pop the coil wire back on and fire her up

You all have been immensely helpful through this whole process. Thank you again to everyone!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on April 23, 2015, 08:45:47 AM
After 3 turns, i realized if i dropped the wrench, it would fall down into the bell housing and I wouldnt be able to get it. Went back into the house, got a long shoelace, tied one end to the wrench and the other to my wrist. 

You can't be a hot rodder with thinking like that! You've got to make dumb mistakes that require hours of excess work and lots of foul language....then you're a hot rodder  ;D ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 23, 2015, 09:12:55 AM
LOL  Yea tell me about it.  I just knew I would drop it and there is no way to get to it.  My only issue now is that the fitting in the bearing needs tefalon tape on it before you put the new fitting back on.  Ill figure it out though  :0)  There were actually 2 burn through marks on the stainless line when I actually got it off to inspect.  The are small burnt circles about the size of a pencil eraser.....  such a small zap.... and hours of work! (That kinda qualifies as a stupid mistake causing hours of work......  HOTRODDER!)

I am going to go to home depot this weekend and buy a sheet of aluminum and make a bracket on the pedal for the throttle cable.  Currently there is a pigtail at the top for the electronic throttle control, but with that out of the way, I should be able to mock up 2 "L" shape brackets that I can bolt on either side of the pedal shaft.  At the top of the 2 "L" shape pieces, I will fab something to holt the clevis pin fitting on the end of the throttle cable.  I am going to use a manila folder to cut out mock ups of these brackets and then (while the pedal is still in the car) scribe where I want them and how far the should tilt back toward the firewall.  Then I can take the pedal out (3 bolts) and drill/bolt the aluminum brackets on.

All parts are being delivered today from Jegs :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on April 23, 2015, 10:34:34 AM
You can't be a hot rodder with thinking like that! You've got to make dumb mistakes that require hours of excess work and lots of foul language....then you're a hot rodder  ;D ;D

Especially the foul language part  ;D ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on April 23, 2015, 11:44:29 AM
There is liquid Teflonetape in a botle if it
is of any help.I dont remember the
brand of it maby locktite
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 23, 2015, 12:58:07 PM
Hey Heo.  Thanks but unfortunately there are like 3 warnings on RAM's kit telling you that if you use anything but actual tefalon tape, then there will (with 100% certainty) be leaks.  I will find a way to get Teflon tape on that fitting if I have to go find a 6 yr. old neighborhood kid to stick his arm up in there!  LOL


And even though I have the ground issue somewhat solved (want to add a few more straps for backup), I want to wrap the clutch lines in an insulator.

I was laughing (sweating) last night at the thought of what might have happened if I had the stainless braided fuel lines!!!!  They aren't near enough to the block, but WHAT IF  ?  LOL

I will keep you posted.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: KMcCullah on April 23, 2015, 01:37:15 PM
I think at this point you should probably rethink how you are running ground wires to make sure the most draw is addressed the easiest

I would connect the negative side of the battery directly to the block and ensure that the connection is clear of paint and its a good contact

Then I would ground the body to the engine and potentially the body to the neg post of the battery if the battery cable has an extra jumper wire off it (not required but if it's there)

The starter will take the most voltage, and them you can be sure it has the ground directly.

Also, no benefit in turning over an engine until you are ready to fire it, it just turns dry.  I'd say set some time aside and fix it, then fire it.

X2 what Ross said. I'm surprised that the factory battery ground was not bolted to the block already.

 I just recently put a new engine in a 1999 F450 with a 7.3 diesel. I had to lift the cab/front clip off to get to the engine. It has 2 batteries wired in parallel and the ground ultimately terminates on the block. And from 2 or 3 different locations on the engine, ground straps connect to the frame. And from 2 or 3 different locations on the frame, ground straps connect to the cab/front clip. Good clean grounds are key in this age of computer controlled automotive systems.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 23, 2015, 02:36:12 PM
OK so what it looked like was that there were 2 points where the old Saleen Modular block was grounded.  There was the Ground wire on the starter harness (the one I have been talking about) which was not long enough -by about 6 inches- to reach the Ford FE cammer block once it was swapped out.  I had no idea that it HAD to be grounded to the block, but knew it was a ground, so this is the one I grounded to the K member as it was the only thing it would reach.

The second was a ground strap (flat braided strap) which on a Saleen (Or ford Modular) connects to the drivers side head and opposite to a bolt under the cowl (on the fire wall).  Being a novice, I had no idea about 2 things.....  1st that an engine block had to be grounded (just learned by reading that the starter doesn't have a ground wire, but actually is grounded to the block and thus the block needed to be grounded)

2nd, I had no idea in H*LL what that ground strap was on the firewall (I was actually using it as a string of sorts to hold the engine harness up out of the way  LOL

This is why I am in the Burnt out clutch feed line situation.

when I thought I could use the engine ground strap (the flat braided one) to ground the block to the chassis, it worked....  but the "current" from the starter actually melted the plastic coating off of the strap.  That made me nervous, so I fabricated my own 2 gauge battery cable ground strap.  One end is sandwiched between the starters lover bolt and the block and the other end is attached to the same mounting point on the K member I was using in error before.  When I craned the engine this time (just to test it), I rolled back under the car and felt the wire.  It was nice and cold, so at least I know what I start the car, the thick gauge wire can handle it without melting and arcing on something.  Now, even though I feel pretty confident in my heavy gauge ground, I will still run the flat braided ground strap (the one I got off the firewall) at another point..... just as a secondary (backup).

There are a fashionable butt load of ground wires on this car with all of the electronics....  and I left every and any of them I found alone.  The only ones I removed were the ground strap and the block ground.  all should be just as it was when the modular engine was in there as soon as I replace the flat braided strap (as far as grounds are concerned).

I guarantee I will never make that mistake again!  LOL  What I was also sort of curious about it....  If I didn't have that braided clutch line....  where that current would have found its way out at???  LOL

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Drew Pojedinec on April 23, 2015, 03:26:35 PM
Quote
Especially the foul language part  ;D ;D

huh.... maybe it's just me, but I always thought people from your state talked like Ned Flanders from the Simpsons.  If you swore it'd be something like "gosh darn, dangit!"  and then you'd promptly apologize for losing your cool and speaking like that.
But what do I know?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on April 23, 2015, 06:39:14 PM
"Minnesota Nice" is just a cover...  :-X
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on April 23, 2015, 10:13:46 PM
I do remember hearing the term "Holy Buckets" a few times in Jay's shop.   8)

Maybe I've never seen him mad enough to go beyond the Minnesota Nice.  Next time I'll have to come out when it's time to install Hooker Super Comp headers in a 67 - 70 Mustang with shock towers!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 24, 2015, 09:01:12 AM
HAHAHA...... "Diggity dag-nabbit!"

OK so honestly I could not wait.  I was sitting on the couch last night and I could hear the freshly delivered boxes of parts calling to me from the counter.  After trying to ignore them for a bit, I decided to retire to the man cave.....

I had noticed that when I removed the old line, Most of the Teflon tape was still on the fitting.  Honestly, I started out just making sure I could get the new line in at the funky angle it comes (through an opening in the bell housing spacer and then to the bearing.  But once I had finagled it to line up, I figured "Why not just tighten it up while I'm down here....  whats the worst thing that can happen?  It leaks and I have to take it back off and figure out adding more tefalon?".....  So that's just what I did.  I put the Ol'e wrench with the shoe string back on and slowly went to tightening it.  Once that was done, I fished up up back through to the clutch on the firewall.  This fitting I was able to very easily put a little teflon tape on before tightening it on the new line.  Then I just insert it into the firewall fitting and put the retaining clip back in.

I had the wife assist me with the bleeding process.  The RAM hydraulic setup actually comes with a separate line with a bleed fitting on the end.  With in a few pumps, all the air was out and I tightened up the bleed fitting and tie strapped it back up out of the way.

Before she got out of the car, I asked her to push the clutch to the floor a few times while I inspected in the bell housing for any leaks.....  Luckily (and fingers crossed going forward) No Leaks!!

Then just to double check, I asked her to push it down a few more times while looking at the fitting on the fire wall....  again, no leaks!  Like I said before though...  fingers crossed going forward.

Lastly, I have the throttle cable.  I did not start on it, but I found something interesting.  While searching for bracket ideas, I came across a mustang forum (cant remember the name now), but a guy just this past November who was putting a 427W (dart block) into a 2012 Mustang (V6)....  Looked nice, sounded even sweeter.  But when it came time for him to do the gas pedal swap, he found that any fox bodied mustang pedal will bolt up to the studs.  Even though the newer mustangs have 3 mounting points on their pedal, the 2 on a fox body pedal line perfectly with the 2 left side ones.  Unfortunately, this puts the pedal really really close to the brake.  In order to fix this, he made a flat plate of aluminum the same shape as the newer mustangs mounting points..... then just drilled 2 mounting holes for the fox body pedal off center to the right to move the pedal to a more agronomical spot.  Problem solved.  I like my pedal, so I will just try adding a bolt on lever arm at the top that pulls the throttle cable when I push down on the pedal.....  if that doesn't work, Ill just spring for a $30.00 fox body pedal  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 24, 2015, 10:15:34 AM
Hey All,  Another quick question.  The FAST EFI set up hand held asks a few questions before you can start driving.  One is cubic inches (482 ci in / 7.9 Ltr. in this case) and the other is what RPM you want the engine to idle at.  Any suggestions given my cam?  I was thinking 1100? but am just going off of a Dyno test I saw on youtube for "Tom Fry's cammer engine".  It looks like the screen says 1100 RPM at idle???? 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on April 24, 2015, 01:40:37 PM
With EFI you should be able to idle lower than that.  I'd say 1000 RPM would be a good starting point, and maybe go a little lower after you have the engine dialed in.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 24, 2015, 02:04:08 PM
Awesome!  Thanks Jay
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on April 24, 2015, 08:32:12 PM
I agree, my non-cammer 489 used to idle at 1150 or so with a carb, any lower it was unhappy.  With SEFI I let it idle at 900 warm and it loves it, I likely could even go lower if I wanted, but I like to have the oil being thrown around with solids.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 25, 2015, 02:31:04 PM
OK lets get right to it.  I added a secondary ground strap from the drivers side head to the frame of the car.  This was just for backup, because I dont want to fry that clutch line again.

I NEED MORE HELP!  Today was the big day!  I got in the car, I turned the key to the ACC position so that the FAST EFI hand held came on.  I selected the setup wizard.  The first question was cubic inch?  I put 483.  The second question is idle RPM? I put 1000.  the 3rd question was let the throttle be at where it would at idle( which is not touching it)....  I did so and then it said press continue.  The the last question was hold the throttle wide open.  I did this (and then when the computer was done, it said hit continue.....

Then it says start the car and let it warm up.......  HERE WE GO.  I tried starting the engine, but there is nothing.  It sounds no different than it did when I was just testing the starter with the coil wire off.

I checked, and the MSD box has power.....  I checked the fuel pressure, and its ded set on 43 PSI (as per the FAST instructions)...  so what did I do wrong, and better yet, how do I get it running?  To me it sounds like no spark?  So I had someone try turning the car over, and I turned the distributor a few degrees to the left....  Didnt work.  So then back to where it was.....  then a few degrees to the right.  No Luck.  It is getting gas because you could smell it after a while.

This is where I am.  Anyone have any ideas?  I would love to get it running and post a video!  Please help with any ideas
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on April 25, 2015, 03:39:06 PM
Timing light hooked on?
Should be flashing when you turn it over.
Well as long as someone is holding on. ::)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Dave427SOHC on April 25, 2015, 04:02:30 PM
The starter does crank motor right? Is there fuel PSI? Make sure there is fuel pumping.  Pull a plug wire make sure the plug is sparking i only cruised through your last reply quick sorry if this is already covered. I gotta run BBL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on April 25, 2015, 04:05:48 PM
Timing light hooked on?
Should be flashing when you turn it over.
Well as long as someone is holding on. ::)

Yep, no timing light flash = no spark.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: drdano on April 25, 2015, 07:22:05 PM
I like to zip tie my trigger down on my timing light.  A remote starter bypass trigger is also nice to jump the solenoid under the hood.  Sounds like no spark to me.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 25, 2015, 07:33:51 PM
No spark from coil. Got a new coil, still no spark. Msd 6a box led is on, so box should be working but no spark from ignition coil????

On the way out of the garage, I tried turning it over one more time......  Because I had the light off (to see if I could see a spark from the coil, I noticed this....

The MSD box has an LED light.  As the instructions say, the light comes on when you turn the key to the on position.   HOWEVER, when I started cranking the engine over, the LED shut off!!!

SO, what is interesting is this...... 

I read online that there was a fuse panel on the passenger side kick panel in the Saleen.  There were 3 unused fuse locations, of which 2 of them were "Switched power".....  What it looks like is they are switched power, but lose paower during the cranking.....  And sadly I have the MSD box, the FAST EFI computer, and the fuel pumps all hooked to this fuse!!!

That means everything looks fine (as the instructions say) when you put the key in the "on" position....  The fuel pumps are humming, the MSD ignition box LED light comes on, and the FAST EFI computer is on (with no communication errors), but as soon as I start cranking the engine, the MSD ignition box light shuts off, the fuel pumps shut off, and the FAST EFI computer pops up with a communication error!!!

Where can I find an 12v switched ignition source that stays on through cranking and engine running?  All problems will most likely be solved if I could find this!  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 25, 2015, 09:33:55 PM
OK guys....  a lot of google searching and we are back on track.

I found the correct 12V switched power source that not only turns on when the ignition is turned on, but through cranking and engine running.  I cranked the engine over with the coil wire pulled off, and a spark plug "shoved" in there.  One of the happiest moments of my life seeing that gigantic blue spark arcing across there.

Now.... I didnt start the car, but now I know it will start!  Tomorrow is the big day.  I know the distributor is going to have to be adjusted while its running, but I think I will have the custom shop guy come over with a timing light and time this thing.

just want it to idle on its own.....  we can fine tune it shortly after  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: rockittsled on April 26, 2015, 02:33:57 AM
Well, Im up at 330 in the morning.  Please have a video cam running when you hit the key....PRETTY PLEASE!?!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on April 26, 2015, 09:40:59 AM
Well, Im up at 330 in the morning.  Please have a video cam running when you hit the key....PRETTY PLEASE!?!

I agree, waiting for the growl here too!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 26, 2015, 01:56:18 PM
Picked up a timing light.... What should initial timing be set at to get it running?  Fired it up but it only runs for 2 seconds before it dies????

13 deg before tdc???
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on April 26, 2015, 02:09:58 PM
Set it at about 30 degrees before you start it.  It will want some advance. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on April 26, 2015, 07:43:55 PM
This is EFI, is the timing electronically controlled? If so, it's likely additive to base, so whatever you have it programmed for, your start setting is base, which is generally 10 degrees or so.

If it is not controlled by the box, then just give it as much as you can and still allow it to turn over, it won't hurt anything if it is over advanced unless you put a load on it. 13 is likely fine for initial, as is 10-16 or anything in between.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 26, 2015, 07:52:39 PM
Ok the EFI does not control the timing.  i had it origionally at like 13, and I wouldnt run ( would go to start and then crap out a few seconds later). Had someone turn it over, and when it went to start, I turned the distributor clockwise until it was running strong. Hit it with the timing light and it was at 30 degrees running fine on its own. I revved it by hand a little and it stalled. While it was off, i took this time to tighten down the distributor hold down.

When I tried to start it again, it wont start. How is 30 great while its at idle, but too much to start again?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on April 26, 2015, 07:55:49 PM
Do you know that your mark is correct?

30 initial is likely too much to crank over, my guess is that the starter wouldn't crank, is that what you are seeing?

Unless you have a locked distributor (no advance) or mis marked timing marks, I see no reason to put it at 30 initial, not to mention it will WAY over advance as you rev it.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on April 26, 2015, 08:11:56 PM
Jason -

Congrats on starting the engine and achieving a sustained idle.  That's huge considering all of the things you had to adapt to get the engine into the car (not to mention the black-belt task of properly assembling a cammer)!

Now it sounds like tuning and possibly a few sensor issues.  You should celebrate with a beer!  If it was me I'd probably be a couple of frustrating weekends before hearing the first fire  >:(
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on April 27, 2015, 05:56:28 AM
Yeah, let me clarify my statement.....30 degrees initial is not where you want to be.   However, if you want to "pre-time" an engine, you can roll it over until your pointer is pointing at somewhere between 20-30 BTDC on your balancer (on compression stroke), then make sure the rotor is pointing at the #1 plug wire on the cap.  If everything else is right, it should start almost immediately and run until you can dial it on in. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on April 27, 2015, 06:10:03 AM
I'm not really up on the initial EFI start and tune, but could it be
you need to make small baby steps for the controller to see what is happening.
Once you get it running make very small adjustments at the dist.
It may even run a tad rough for a minute or so as you get the timing closer to a normal number
for the "box" to readjust to the new inputs.
As was said it is running and that is a huge achievement!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 27, 2015, 03:57:33 PM
Hey Guys,

Sorry, but I have been preoccupied with a crappy coil connection (which means I keep trying to turn the engine over with no spark!)

the thing is, the MSD distributor has a Male coil prong and the coil itself (MSD blaster 2) has a female fitting.  The Coil wire that Jegs talked me into accepts male on both sides, so they also sold me a fitting that goes down into the coil and tightens against the side walls to make the female coil into a male.  I honestly hate this fitting as sometimes it creates a spark, but most times not.

I remembered that I gave it a go at making my own plug wires from an MSD kit, and found that the coil wire I made was male on one end and female on the other.  I had it tucked away in a box somewhere.

I snapped it on, but since the battery is almost completely dead from all the coil confusion, it has been hooked up to the battery tender all day.

I will let you all  know whats going on as it happens  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on April 27, 2015, 04:38:41 PM
Jason, something to keep in mind so that you don't tear your hair out.
The Blaster 2 coil has a fairly thick neck. If you're using a coil wire (from another company) that has tighter boots, the wire can work itself off, breaking contact. Especially if you use dielectric grease to put your wires together.
Yet the boot still looks like it's on correctly. MSD has a kluge plastic hold down to combat this.
After this happened to me I used zip ties at first to keep it tight and in good contact.
Good luck
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on April 27, 2015, 08:06:26 PM
To me it seems funny that it starts at 13 BTDC, and then runs better at 30 BTDC.  Sounds like a fuel issue, like maybe the EFI system is running it really lean or something.  I'm not familiar with these EFI systems that tune themselves, so I'm afraid I'm not much help on that part.

If you want to re-check TDC to make sure you have it correct, you can do it by using a piston stop that screws into the #1 spark plug hole.  I made one out of an old plug, by breaking away all the ceramic so that the plug was hollow, and then threading a bolt through the middle of the plug so that it sticks out of the end about an inch or so.  If you screw that into the #1 cylinder in place of the regular plug, you can turn the engine one way until it stops against the bolt, record the reading on the balancer, then turn the engine in the opposite direction until it stops against the bolt again, and record that reading.  Halfway between the two readings will be top dead center. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on April 27, 2015, 09:22:23 PM
Good advice!

Especially because I seem to remember there was some confusion about the timing mark early in the build
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 28, 2015, 07:47:26 AM
Yea, I am pretty sure at this point that the TDC is incorrect.  I think the confusion was the fact that I have to use the timing light on the balancer from the passenger side down by the alternator.  I think I need to just slow down and redo the TDC.

I just ordered a 7" Ford FE timing tape from Jegs.  I also still have the piston stop that screws down into the spark plug hole.  Unfortunately, I am going to have to take the radiator, fans, and shroud back off to be able to get a breaker bar down to the balancer bolt.  I figure I can (like Jay stated before) turn the engine slowly one way until I hit the stop.  Then put a mark on the balancer then do the same in the opposite direction and put a mark.....  TDC should be the center point of those 2 marks....  then I can clean the balancer off and stick the timing tape aligning the TDC on the tape to my centerline mark.

Im thinking the larger the breaker bar, the easier it will be to turn?

Such a pain in the A$$ (oh..... I mean learning experience)  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on April 28, 2015, 07:56:03 AM
Hint: Take all the plugs out. It will make turning the engine over easier and the "feel" when you
come up on the stop.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 28, 2015, 08:25:01 AM
Thanks Howie  :0)

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on April 28, 2015, 08:49:11 AM
Im thinking the larger the breaker bar, the easier it will be to turn?

Yes, but then one must have the car high enough to clear the garage floor. A long handled 1/2 rachet (not cheap btw) may be in your future as it'll come in handy later on as well.

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/1-2-long-handle-ratchet
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 28, 2015, 09:49:36 AM
Yea, when I was assembling, I had the regular size 1/2 rachet.  I could turn the engine over (fully assembled), but it was hard with such little leverage.  So the plan is to remove the radiator, fans, shrouds and the power steering assembly (im going to leave the P/S all hooked up, but just disconnect from the block and remove the belt.  I am also going to loosen the belt on the alternator.

Then I am going to put the car back up on Jack stands, Front and back.

The Saleen has a plastic "Skid Plate" of sorts that blocks you from getting to the front of the engine from Below, so I will remove that as well.  From this point, I should have fairly good access to the crank pulley.  Plus, lying on my back, I should be able to pull Down and push up on a long handled 1/2 ratchet.  Like stated earlier (and I would have forgotten), I am going to remove all of the sparkplugs to make it easier to turn over.

With the Spark plug type piston stop installed, I will inch my way clockwise until it stops.  When it stops, I will make a mark on the Harmonic balancer (or make note of the degree mark).  Then I will turn the engine counter clockwise until it comes in contact with the piston stop.  At this point (as the timing marks do not go all the way around the balancer like some) I will make a mark.

TDC should be the centerline of these 2 marks.  I will clean the balancer the best I can all the way around and allow it to dry (I don't want the timing tape coming off)....  But if It should, I think it would be best for me to at the very least make a permanent scribe line at TDC on the balancer.  That way in the future if the timing tape comes off, at least I know where TDC is again and can go from there.

With the timing tape installed, I will make sure to roll the engine over until TDC is aligned with my timing pointer and then edge it ever so slightly to about 13 degrees BTDC.    Then on to the distributor.......

With the timing pointer at 13 degrees before TDC, I am going to take the distributor out all the way and readjust.....  the reason I am going to take it out all the way is because of interference while turning.  The MSD distributor has the hold down ears which contact the flange on the water neck (about 9'Oclock) then there is the water temp sensor for the FAST EFI (at about 10'Oclock) and then there is the temp sensor for the Saleen gauge cluster (the once in which I had to make a brass adapter to accept the Cylinder head temp sensor from the Modular engine).  This is at about 2 O'clock).  I need to find out where I have the most free movement of the distributor (uninterrupted) and then I will know where I can put my #1 plug wire.

Then it should be just a matter of putting the radiator and accessories back on and starting?

When I did get it running (and since my timing marks were off, it read 30 degreed before TDC) there was some smoke some from the crap on the headers (oil and paint)... and some coming out of the breather tubes on each head.   That's normal right?  My thought was it was the oil that lined the cylinder walls burning off?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on April 28, 2015, 10:01:41 AM
Yes, make a permanent mark of TDC. Short steel rule to hold to the balancer and mark it with a sharp edged tool, razor knife, etc. Then, re-mark with a heavier tool edge to ensure it doesn't disappear under oil, gunk, etc.

The oil is likely normal as the walls are coated, so likely are the header externals. All, headers included, should go away after a few minutes running time.

Note too it's really handy to have a fan aimed at the radiator, a gallon or two of water to fill the rad and that taped down timing light trigger to check timing at idle. One of the worst things folks do with a fresh engine is run the timing way retarded! It's amazing how those headers glow red when the timing is so far off....not good! 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on April 28, 2015, 01:02:50 PM
When I did get it running (and since my timing marks were off, it read 30 degreed before TDC) there was some smoke some from the crap on the headers (oil and paint)... and some coming out of the breather tubes on each head.   That's normal right?  My thought was it was the oil that lined the cylinder walls burning off?

That is all normal for a new engine.  In fact a lot of times they will smoke a LOT for the first 5-10 minutes...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 30, 2015, 11:00:21 AM
I wanted to post this little tid bit because as a first time engine builder, when something did not go exactly perfect by the book, it weighed on me.... and as I progressed through the build, its always in the back of your mind.  One item I posted that seemed off from the norm was the seating of the distributor.  I sent out the MSD Pro Billet to get one of there steel gears installed to play well with the stub cam gear.  When I finally dropped the distributor in, I noted from a book and a few how to videos, that while holding the distributor down to the intake, and with the distributor removed from the shaft, there should be a few thousands play up and down on the shaft.  It was said that if you didn't have a few thousands play up and down, you may be looking at distributor gear binding down the line.  When I did this "Test", I was a little disheartened that I had no play up and down.

What I found out while inspecting the distributor (and its assocatied clearance issues with the water neck flange , cylinder head temp sensor (stock) and the coolant sensor(for the EFI system), was that my distributor was "snugged up against one of these hang-ups by just a hair!  When I found a spot where the distributor would give me smooth movement clockwise and counter clockwise (since I am going to be re-timing it this weekend), I tried the test again and voila!  There was the few thousands movement up and down on the shaft....

Nothing big, but I wanted to clarify since I had posted in the past on this issue without any resolution at the time.  :0) 

Also, today, I get my timing tape for the 7" balancer, I also ordered the correct MSD coil wire where I wont need to use the nipple fitting to make the coil a "male", and also I ordered a nifty gas pedal from LOKAR.  Its for a 64-68 Mustang, but it looks like it would work beautifully and will make me feel a little better driving.  I think this will be better that making up some kind of bracket on the stock pedal.

I promise there will be a video at the end of all of this.........  LOL  I want it more than you all do  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on April 30, 2015, 11:16:23 AM
Sure we do....but take your time and make sure all is right!  ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Bolted to Floor on April 30, 2015, 01:39:18 PM
Sure we do....but take your time and make sure all is right!  ;)

X2
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 01, 2015, 11:49:33 AM
OK one more day before help arrives ..... and I can find TDC.  I got my Jegs shipment yesterday, and I wanted to say what a nice piece the LOKAR mustang gas pedal is!  Not only that, but I did a quick comparison in the car, and not only will it sit at exactly the same location as the stock pedal sits now, but the area on the engine side of the firewall where it will be bolted together is clearly reachable from just around the brake booster!  Excited about that because I really am not in the mood with the timing issue to construct some make shift bracket.

The timing tape arrived as well as a brand new MSD Blaster 2 coil (this is the 3rd one I purchased, but the other 2 had to have the plastic inlet at the top altered to work with the male fitting.  This one will use the correct MSD 8.5 superconductor wire with the male "prong" protruding from the boot and will fit down into the female top of the coil (a new "unmolested" coil  LOL)

The only trick with this is that the distributor end of this new coil wire is also male ..... and since the distributor cap is male, I am going to use the box of MSD crimp on fittings to crimp on a new female fitting and new boot.

Also have had that red top battery on the "Battery Tender" staying fresh and 100% charged for when I finally get to turn it over all timed up.

In talking to jay a few months ago, he suggested which springs and which bushings should be installed on the distributor to get the correct timing curve.  The MSD pro-Billet comes with 2 heavy silver springs attached out of the box, however it was suggested that I go with the "black Bushing" as well as the "light blue" and "light silver" spings.  This was to be at about 32 degrees total timing at about 3000 RPM.  The initial timing (from what we have been discussing) is somewhere from 12-14 degrees BTDC.  (See Letter "E" in the below diagram)

So at Idle, I should see the timing light reading somewhere between 12 - 14 degrees before TDC....  This is also where I will begin when I adjust the distributor after re-marking TDC.  Also from what I am hearing, this amount of initial timing will allow the engine to fire right up.

Then....  after I give the engine time to get the oil flowing and the temperature up......  I will rev it to about 3000 RPM and have them hold it there....  at which point I should see about 32 degrees BTDC with the timing light.  I am sure these aren't exact numbers and being 1 or 2 degrees off in either direction (depending on application) would be acceptable?

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/Timing%20curve_zpszgco49ot.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/Timing%20curve_zpszgco49ot.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on May 01, 2015, 12:24:57 PM
So at Idle, I should see the timing light reading somewhere between 12 - 14 degrees before TDC....  This is also where I will begin when I adjust the distributor after re-marking TDC.  Also from what I am hearing, this amount of initial timing will allow the engine to fire right up.

-Correct.

Then....  after I give the engine time to get the oil flowing and the temperature up......  I will rev it to about 3000 RPM and have them hold it there....  at which point I should see about 32 degrees BTDC with the timing light.  I am sure these aren't exact numbers and being 1 or 2 degrees off in either direction (depending on application) would be acceptable?

Sure, it likely won't be at exactly 32 nor hit that number exactly at 3K.

-You'll have time to play with more exact timing later. Besides, those are ballpark numbers (very good ones btw) and you may find after some driving and running time the engine happier and more responsive with some  +/- on both numbers, albeit not by much.


 


Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 01, 2015, 01:09:24 PM
OK cool... thanks!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 02, 2015, 04:52:34 PM
Ok update. Father came over and with all sparkplugs removed, was able to turn the engine clockwise with a loooong breaker bar, but not counterclockwise because it would just end up untightening the crank bolt. Used a method i saw online where you use a really long wratchet extention. ( really thin one) and when you are at the compression stroke, you insert the extension down into the cylinder and rest it on the piston. As my father slowly turned the crank clockwise, there was a point where the extension stopped moving up....  When this happened, i made note of the degrees where the pointer was.  Then slowly he kept turning the crank clockwise until the extension just barely moved ( on its way back down). At this point i made note of the degrees on the crank. When i split the value to find TDC, it ended up being where 9 degrees ATDC was on the balancer timing marks. Before I reset the timing marks with the timing tape, we did it one more time to make sure. So he turned the crank clockwise until TDC came around again ( which was the exhaust stroke) and the as it came around again( blowing air out) we were at the compression stroke again. Using the long rachet extension again, we came up with the same numbers. At this point we were positive that 9 degrees ATDC on the balancer was actually TDC.  I used the timing tape  and stuck it on covering the actual balancer numbers with the tape. Now, TDC is correctly marked. On to the distributor. We turned the Crank until it read 13 degrees before our new TDC. Pulling the distributor cap, we saw that the distributor was pointing roughly at # 2 cylinder. So starting on the cap in the location the point was already facing, we made that point the #1 plug wire.  Working our way counterclockwise now, we connected : 1,5,4,2,6,3,7,8. We tightened down the distributor with the hold down, but gave our selves a little wiggle room to clock it if we needed. I stood holding the distributor top, and my father turned the engine over.... Again it took a few seconds, but the engine would start up , putter and die. It wouldnt stay running long enough to put the timing light on it. So I marked the cap and the intake where it sat, and then while he cranked, turned it a little clockwise (advance). It would not start and sounded weight down, then i moved it back to our 13 degrees btdc mark and when he tried turning it over again, i turned it a little clockwise... No luck. So i turned it back to our 13 degrees BTDC markings, and a few more times it popped to life, then sputtered and died. Couldnt get it running at all. We tried for another hour or so, giving it a little throttle and such, but always the same

After an hour, we actually overheated the starter???  I may now need a new started because now all the solenoid does is click

Honestly guys, no idea. I think i am going to contact the shop and ask them to pick it up.... And call me when its running.

i am curious if its normally so hard to turn over the engine with a breaker bar???  It moved, and seemed to move easier after a few turns, but counterclockwise was not going to happen. Bolt came loose each time we tried( and that bolt was torqued on there to spec!!! 

Ideas?  Shop guys is calling to discuss his charge to get it running tomorrow
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on May 02, 2015, 07:21:23 PM
W/o trying to sound like a smartie, one needs spark, compression and fuel. Think we can dispense with compression. Are the plugs wet with fuel? Sounds like it if it kicks. Does the #1 plug and others (grounded) spark? Seemingly so if it kicks over but sputters to a stop after you release the key. 

I wonder if the spark is going away as you release the key and after it briefly fires...meaning something is wrong with the ignition wiring, coil hookups, etc.   (Key to Start position, engine fires....releasing the key to the Run position and the engine quits). 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on May 02, 2015, 07:30:13 PM
Are you sure it's not a fuel issue? Have you tried dribbling a SMALL amount of gas into the intake when it fires to see if it continues to run, or spraying a SMALL amount of ether in it to see if it continues? If it seems to want to continue running that way, it's a fuel related issue. But DON'T try to keep the engine running that way, just see if it wants to.

You can hardly ever turn an engine backwards with the crank bolt. It'll always loosen, especially on a fresh engine where everything is tight. I'm not so sure it's a good idea anyway on a Cammer, with the super long chain and tensioners.

I can't remember what damper you got. If it's an ATI, they're known for being 7* off. A better TDC method would have been to use something that goes into the spark plug hole to act as a piston stop. Still, if you do it carefully, your way should at least have gotten you close enough for it to run.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 02, 2015, 07:42:34 PM
Hi Doug. Tried the piston stop, but it wont work of you cant rotate it counterclockwide :-(. Actually tried that first

Damn thing wants to run, i am thinking maybe something in the way i have the switched on power wire hooked up?  I have the fuel pumps, the MSD ign box, and the FAST efi computer all sharing one "add a fuse" location on the fuse box in the passenger side kick panel fuse box

At this point though im pretty sure i killed the starter for excessive cranking.  Pretty sure its gone.

Just also finished re-reading all instructions for msd, fast, and fuel pumps. The EFI states that fuel pressure should be 43 PSI but it says thats for 4 injectors!  I have the dual quad set up, which is 8 injectors!!!!  It says 60 psi is about as high as you can go with these injectors, but doesnt mention anything about the dual quad set up...... This alone may be why it gets going and then dies off????  Going to call FAST tech line monday and find out
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 02, 2015, 08:35:00 PM
As long as you have 43 psi in the fuel lines, it won't matter how many injectors there are, provided the lines will flow enough volume to support them.

Take 5 minutes to pull the inspection cover off the front cover and look at the chain, to make sure it is still reasonably tight.  I had a chain break once on a backfire on startup.  Probably not your issue, but it won't hurt to check.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 04, 2015, 08:34:19 AM
Hi Jay,  i can check, but i can see the pistons moving up and down the cylinder as we turned the crank. Its weird, because it ran strong for like 2 minutes the first go around.

Im using 3/8 fuel line.  I wonder if that will support 43 psi and 8 injectors?

Anyway, I toasted the MAD starter
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 04, 2015, 09:13:30 AM
OK, just got off the phone with Fuel Air Spark Tech people (FAST).  We came up with a few "biggies".

First, the fuel pressure regulator should be at roughly 50 PSI. not the 43PSI in the directions.

second, the vacuum reference line that comes off of the regulator should be hooked to a different vacuum port than the one on the throttle body I have it hooked to!  He said this is a biggie that is not in the instructions.  I had it hooked to a vacuum reference port on the side of the throttle body, but it needs to be hooked to one specific reference port on the front corner of the throttle body.  He said this is not in the instructions, but even though the ports look identical, the front corner one is designed specifically for the regulator.  I told him about the time I had the engine running for about 2 minutes, and when I hit the throttle a little it died.  He said that having the reference vacuum line on that wrong port would have caused it to run too rich and die out.

Also, and he said that this is the biggest issue....

I have the 12 V switched power source line for the FAST computer and the MSD ignition box, and the fuel pumps all tied into one fuse location (Passenger side kick panel fuse box)....  He said again.... not specific in the instructions, but the 12 V switched power needs to have its own location....  he said especially running it spliced in together with the MSD box is definitely a huge issue.

So....  I went out to the garage and changed over the vacuum port hose location to the correct one.

I will have to up the fuel pressure to 50 PSI. (I also told him I was running 3/8 inch fuel line with 6AN fittings and he said that's good-No issue there)

and a tedious one for me is now having to find a 12 V switched power source to run the FAST computer from, I will try and fine a separate one to run the MSD Ignition box from, and Ill leave the other where it is now.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 04, 2015, 02:56:07 PM
OK ordered a new MDS starter (High torque) replacement.  Since the headers were built around it, I just figured replace it with the same one.

Been doing a lot of reading, and no where can I find that you can contaminate a 12 V switched power source.  almost everywhere I read, hooking up a EZ EFI system by fast, people "Tap" in to another 12 V switched power source.  I may be wrong, but I don't see how the 12 V signal wire feeding the MSD box can interfere with the FAST EFI computer.  Its basically just a switch to tell the box (s) to power on?

Anyway, since I cant tinker any further due to the broken starter....  Chris from the shop called me this morning.  I explained to him what had happened.  I told him that the engine was running for about 2 minutes, and etc.  I am basically sending it back to his shop to get it in running order.  I need to check back on Wednesday to make sure he has room inside the shop to put the Saleen, as well as his EFI guy to take a look at my wiring, setting (even though its plug and play) and install the new starter and gas pedal.  Basically I just want to drive this car for a bit and then sell it  LOL 

Possibly a side oiler cobra replica next.....

Or a cammer cobra if I play my cards right.  This part sucks, but building the engine was a blast (even with the stress of doing it for the first time).

Ill keep you all posted.  Starter shipped out today
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 04, 2015, 05:14:29 PM
For what its worth, I think you should listen to the FAST guy.  On my EFI setups I run power and ground directly from the battery to main power and ground connections of the EFI box, and I also put one of those bypass capacitors right next to the EFI box, for noise filtering purposes.  Then I run a dedicated 12V switched supply to the EFI box's switched power input, to key it on and off with the ignition key.  And as you have already discovered, the 12V must remain on when you have turned the key to start, not just when it is in the run position.

I don't know if your EFI system can be hooked up like this or not, but the FAST XFI system I use on my Galaxie works fine this way.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 04, 2015, 09:23:49 PM
Hey Jay.  I agree. The MSD box and the FAST EFI box both have power and ground running directly to each side of the battery (as per each set of instructions).  The part that the FAST EFI tech said was the problem is the switched power source.  When I told him that I had the EFI computer twisted to the MSD box signal wire and had them "tapped" into one fuse location, he said that's a biggie.

 I am going to have the shop leave the transmission lock out solenoid left connected to the kick panel fuse location.  I'll ask them to run fresh stand alone lines for both the MSD box as well as the EFI computer right off of the ignition wiring in the dash?  At this point, I would settle for 2 toggle switches on the dash for these.

Ill let you all know as soon as I have any news  :0) 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 05, 2015, 09:58:55 AM
Just wanted to throw some thoughts out there......

After speaking with the EFI Tech, and he explained about the vacuum ports on the throttle bodies, it got me thinking.  There are a few vacuum ports on each throttle body.  I had my fuel pressure regulator reference hose running to a "Manifold vacuum port", when it should have been referenced to a "Ported vacuum port"......

Just this alone sounds like my issue?  I would assume there would be a lot more vacuum in the manifold which was then telling my fuel pressure regulator run richer?/ Leaner? (not sure).

I am still not clear on how this affected it, but since it started and ran, but then dies......  The first time I got it running (where it ran for like 2 minutes), as soon as I touched the throttle it died.  This was either it flooded it or starved it of fuel possibly?

Also of note, when I removed the sparkplugs to roll the engine over, some of the plugs were sooted/fouled up.... and some were so clean it looked like I just installed them.

I have this speaking suspicion that something small and stupid (like the vacuum reference line) is what is causing this headache!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 05, 2015, 11:38:20 AM
Jason, if you aren't running a supercharger or turbocharger, you should not reference the fuel pressure regulator to the manifold; the port on the regulator should be left open to atmospheric pressure.  This way you will always get your 43 psi or 50 psi, whatever, in the fuel rails.  If you reference it to the manifold the vacuum in the manifold will subtract from the fuel pressure that the regulator is set at.

For a supercharged application, you need a manifold vacuum reference (not ported vacuum), because as the intake runners are pressurized, the fuel pressure must be increased to deliver the same amount of fuel.

If it ran for a couple minutes, then quit when you opened the throttle, I'd agree that it is probably a fuel issue.  On the plugs, if they don't all look the same, or close at least, that would also be a clue for a fuel issue.  Maybe one bank of injectors isn't working right or something like that?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 05, 2015, 02:35:03 PM
Hey Jay,

OK I just got off the phone again with FAST EFI tech support.  Here is what this person said.....

First, the fuel pressure regulator does need a vacuum port reference (even though its not supercharged).  He said that since its a free flowing return system, it uses the vacuum to bring the fuel pressure down....  not increase it.

second, I asked him about the 12 V signal wire being shared....  he said no big deal (in his experience hasn't caused an issue)

3rd, we went over fuel pressure again.  Interestingly enough, the tech yesterday said I should bump it up to 50 PSI with the 8 injectors (instead of the 43 PSI the instructions say).  This guy laughed and could not believe someone from their company would have said that.  He said this......  With 482 cubes and 8 injectors, assuming 600-650 horsepower, you want to set the fuel pressure regulator to 32 PSI (with the car off).  When you do initial setup on the handheld computer, you want to leave the 42 PSI (the default PSI the computer has input).  He said, "I bet you were drowning the engine the first few times you cranked it", at which point I explained that the 1 time I got it running, I touched the throttle and it immediately died.  Then when I pulled all the spark plugs, some of them were BLACK and wet. 

He had picked up during our talk that I was using the MSD 6A box, at which point he asked how I had it wired.  I explained that the instructions for the MSD ignition box are the same as the EFI computer as far as the red(+) power wire goes to the (+) terminal on the battery, and the Black (-) ground wire goes to the (-) terminal on the battery......  That was his Ah-Ha moment!  He said So you have the FAST box wired to the battery (like the instructions say) and the MSD Box (like the instructions say)?  I say.....  why yes!  He said , the biggest problem they find with people calling in is "noise" on the ground side of things.  He told me to take the (-) black wire off the battery for the MSD box and ground that to Chassis.  He would almost guarantee that was one of my biggest issues.

So I was flooding the engine with the 43 PSI (when it really should be 32PSI) and there is supposedly a ton of "Noise" from the MSD box being grounded to the battery (infact the wire looks that go to the MSD box and the FAST efi are literally stacked on top of one another and tightened town on the (-) side of the battery.

LOL  I may try and somehow replace the starter by myself when it arrives on Thursday and with these changes, give it another shot.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 05, 2015, 03:23:31 PM
What he told you is completely different from the EFI systems that I've run, including a FAST XFI.  These tune themselves systems must be a whole 'nother animal...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 05, 2015, 03:57:03 PM
I am going to go home tonight and adjust the fuel pressure down to 32 PSI, and also remove the (-) battery wire from the MSD box and ground it to the frame.  I re-read over their (MSD) instructions and it says that you can ground it to the negative side of the battery or ground it to a good chassis ground.

I am going to try these changes out with a new starter before I have the car flat bedded over to the shop and spend who knows how much more $$   ::)

In regards to the vacuum reference line to the regulator, I explained to the gentleman that this will not be a supercharged application.  And I wasn't sure why the vacuum reference would be needed on a naturally aspirated engine.  He explained that unlike other applications where the vacuum reference line adds more fuel pressure with increased vacuum, the FAST EFI (Self learning) one decreases fuel with increased vacuum.  So far I have spoken to 3 different techs, and all 3 say the reference is needed......  but who knows at this point, the next person I call could end up saying "Geeze, you know your car wont run because you have a vacuum reference line hooked up?  "LOL

The only thing that's keeping me going right now is that I heard this engine run!  It ran for a few minutes and there were no oil leaks (YET) LOL

really hoping that these few items are all I did incorrectly and the car fires right up next time.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on May 05, 2015, 07:03:52 PM
Don't you just love when you call for tech support and you get two TOTALLY different answers from two different people?!! That would have been enough for me to ask "Then is there anyone there who actually knows what the hell they're doing??"

I'd say that that is about enough for me to never want to deal with them, but unfortunately that kind of crap happens with ALMOST all the companies. Tech supporters are usually anything but... >:(
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on May 05, 2015, 08:09:03 PM
Jason -

The older factory Ford EFI systems use a pressure regulator that's ported to the intake manifold.  I started my career at Ford in the Fuel Metering group.  The reason for the vacuum signal is that these old-style systems don't adjust the injector pulsewidth to the manifold vacuum.  The "adjustment" is done mechanically with the regulator. 

A fixed pulswidth would push too much fuel at idle, since the manifold vacuum is high and is "sucking" fuel out of the injector.  The regulator drops fuel pressure to keep the same "delta" pressure between the fuel and the manifold, so they can run the same pulsewidth.

I'm thinking the self-learning aspect of the FAST EFI system becomes a lot easier if you're not electronically jiggering the pulswidth with manifold vacuum.  The system probably only needs to tweak one master pulsewidth to get the engine running well at all throttle positions.

Modern EFI systems vary the pulsewidth over the entire map in order to better control emissions.  It's much more precise that way, but a lot harder!

I think you're on the right track :-)

- Bill
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 06, 2015, 03:33:44 PM
Thank you   ;)

While I am awaiting the Starter, I decided to get started on the gas pedal swap.  taking off the Saleen gas pedal was a snap.  There are just 3  nuts (10mm ) on studs.  After removing the nuts, just popped off the pigtail that controlled the electronic throttle.

To make this a little easier, I made a cardboard template of the mounting surface of the pedal flange.  this allowed me to mark out where holes should be drilled.  Then, after tracing out the holes in marker, I started surgery!  The Lokar pedal requires a 1 -3/4" hole (on a 60's mustang, this is already there with a plastic grommet in it.  I used a hole saw and slowly made my cut.  Then, now that I was able to lay the flange flat against the firewall, I noticed that there needed to be a little trimming done a the bottom of the flange to work with a funky contour in the sheet metal.  I made this cut with the angle grinder holding the flange in my vice.

Then its a matter of sandwiching the front and back of the flange together (one from the engine bay, and the other from the pedal area inside the car.  I had my wife hold the pedal itself against the flange while I tightened the bolts from the engine bay.  Finally, it came time to make sure that the pedal actuated the throttle bodies all the way to WOT.   After a little cutting, and a little finesse, the pedal holds the throttle open all the way when floored. 

This was not a huge item on the list, but it was definitely not something I was looking forward to in this heat.  All in all, I think the only thing missing is a throttle return spring (the FAST have little ones built in, but I think just for safety, I will add a light return spring to the rear throttle body to ensure it never sticks).

Also, I got a call yesterday from John in Texas (Yellow engine services) and he said that finally the rubber mold place finished his order and he has set(s) of the rubber spark plug tube dust caps available!!!  I ordered a set and they are on their way.  Once the car is running......I will trim the spark plug wires to fit and look pretty and these plugs will be added!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 07, 2015, 10:05:38 AM
You know one thing I don't understand about my conversation with the FAST tech (the last one I spoke with)..... 

OK I have 8 injectors (4 on each throttle body).  And the FAST EFI system with one throttle body (4 injectors) is designed to handle up to 550 HP at 43 PSI.  The technician said because I have 8 injectors, I need to dial the fuel PSI down to 32 PSI.  This I understand, I was swamping the engine with way more fuel than it needed......  But what I don't understand is why he would have told me to make to tell the computer that the Fuel PSI is still 43?  The first question the handheld computer asks is do you have 1 throttle body or 2.....  So the computer, right off the bat knows I have 8 injectors.  I think after I have everything ready to turn the key again, I am going to call them 1 more time and ask. 

Question for Jay......  Even though you don't have this specific EFI set up (self learning), you still have 8 injectors.  What is your fuel pressure set at?  What injectors do you have?  This is what I found on the injectors based on 1 throttle body:

"Baseline for the EZ-EFI system is 43 psi, at which the four injectors and EZ-EFI throttle body will support 550 horsepower. The system will support higher horsepower with higher fuel pressure. The injectors are rated at 88-lbs/hr at 60 psi. "
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on May 07, 2015, 10:44:38 AM
It sounds to me that the baseline calibration on the FAST computer is assuming only four injectors.  Testing has probably shown that, with eight injectors, telling the computer 43 psi, but really setting fuel pressure lower, gets you into a nice fat sweet spot where the engine will run.  Then the self-tuning algorithm can go to work and optimize the pulsewidth and timing.

It may not make sense on the surface, but I've written plenty of this type of optimization software.  If you start the optimization in a bad place, it will fall off the rails and flood or starve the engine.  If you're in a solid sweet spot, the engine will still run while the controller is making its adjustments.  That will let the system figure out which direction to go with its adjustments.

Electronic engine controls are the devil's work.  At Ford we would tune areas of the spark/ fuel map that didn't seem to make sense.  It just worked better with that much fuel, so we left it there!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 07, 2015, 11:17:04 AM
Jason, I'd listen to Bill on this one.  FWIW, my fuel pressure is always set at 45 psi - Jay
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 07, 2015, 11:22:55 AM
Thank you both. With all the knowledgeable people on here, I seriously feel like that kid on the bus with a helmet on.... finger in nose   ::)

 I get the starter tonight so hopefully I can get it in this weekend and try it again :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on May 07, 2015, 12:39:46 PM
Thank you both. With all the knowledgeable people on here, I seriously feel like that kid on the bus with a helmet on.... finger in nose   ::)

You're not alone 8)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on May 07, 2015, 08:22:40 PM
Having said all of that, once you get the engine running and self-tuning, you may want to ask about sneaking the fuel pressure around a bit.  That will depend on how linear those big 88 lb injectors are.  In the old days we would not have dreamed of running injectors that big, or we would have progressively run small + big injectors.  The new injectors seem to be a lot better at low flowrates.

I bet the tech guys know what an ideal pulsewidth is for those injectors.  Once the engine is happy you should probably adjust the pressure to get your pulsewidth in that range.  Part-throttle driveability is super sensitive to air-fuel ratio...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 08, 2015, 08:18:15 AM
Hey Guys....  I was digging for hours last night and finally came across an article of a guy (I think hes actually on youtube as "Fridgeguy")  He has been using the FAST EZ efi dual quad unit and had excessive fuel swamping issues.  His seem slightly different than mine, but he was down in the 20's for his fuel pressure (smaller engine), so 32 PSI is starting to look right.

What he had mentioned, and what started to worry me last night was...  He was saying that after he had the throttle body dumping fuel on all of his attempts to start, he was worries that the unburnt gas was going to destroy (not his exact wording) the cylinder walls?  Also he said that when he changed the oil, there was a ton of fuel in there too.

Before I try this again, is there anything I should do to prepare?  I still have the Joe Gibbs break in oil in the engine....  but I am more worried about possible corrosion from the fuel on the cylinder walls since it has been about a week since we tried firing it up last.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 08, 2015, 08:25:56 AM
Check your oil level, smell it, feel it, and if its significantly overfull and smells like gas, dump it out. 

Corrosion is likely NOT an issue, but reduced lubricity/viscosity, etc from fuel dilution could hurt it once you fire it.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on May 08, 2015, 08:29:20 AM
2X to 427's answer. I'd carefully drain off a small sample from the pan or pop the filter and let that drain a tad. Smell, feel as noted. Heck we'd often super clean the oil pan plug area after a 20-30 minute initial break-in, dump all the oil into a clean pan, check same for bearing or iron material and if all looked good, dumped it right back in for a much longer driving break-in.   
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 08, 2015, 09:29:05 AM
Thanks guys.  Yea, replacing the oil wouldn't bother me (assuming it smells like gas).  I was more worried about the gas on the cylinder walls.  If a non issue, I will be sure not to do any revving of the engine until the oil has time to splash around.  Hopefully that will do.  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 08, 2015, 07:41:02 PM
Hey Guys,
Update...  I got home today and got started.  Taking the headers out wasn't that bad, but there is definitely a method.  They have to come out in a certain order, and the bolts have to be loosened in a certain order (Remember this for later in the post).  Then it was a matter of disconnecting FAST Computer and the MSD ign box.  Then disconnecting the battery.  Pulled off the ground wire I made (out of battery cable) and the Saleens stock ground wire.  I wanted to do what was mentioned by someone in a past post....  I wanted the starter grounded to the block, the block grounded to the battery (Which is the stock saleen cable), and the block also grounded to the frame.  The stock saleen ground wire I stretched over a little and wollowed out in order to remove one of the motor mount bolts and clamp it under it(Battery to block).  Then I reconnected my thick gauge battery cable ground wire from the starter to the chassis (Starter to block).  I still have the braided line running from one of the heads to the frame (Block to chassis).  I am not sure if overdoing this is a bad thing or not, but at least I have the car back to its original grounding configuration (plus 1!).

So starter is in... power wire reconnected.  Signal wire reconnected.  Check and check!

Then it came to putting the headers back on!  Long story short, I put them in -in the reverse order I took them out, but I must have tightened the bolts out of order, because there are now 2 bolts I cant reach at all.  I tried a swivel head socket, I tried a U-Joint fitting on the socket.... I tried the swivel with the U joint fitting.  LOL 

I have reached out to Chris at the header shop to remind me what exaclty he said about the order of replacing bolts.....  gonna have to write this one down for when I get them ceramic coated  LOL

Other than those 2 exhaust bolts, car is ready to ....  I can try getting is started with all of the changes we discussed in the last few posts.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 09, 2015, 03:58:00 PM
OK... the day we have all been waiting for!!!

Let me get started by saying that yes I got the engine running, and it was self sustaining.  Let me also preface this by saying that 1) the timing made no sense at all, 2) Car would not restart after I shut it off and let it cool down, and 3). I dont think the thermostat worked because the overflow tank.... well, overflowed.  I am in the process of uploading the video (not a great video as I was filming with my phone and running around to check the handheld, use the timing light and adjust a portable fan in front of the radiator....  but you definately can hear that tell tale "thumpity-thump of a cammer at 1000-1100 RPM. 

I will start by saying that I had adjusted the Fuel pressure to 31 PSI (although left the EFI computer at 43 PSI as directed).  During the first few minutes, my eyes were burning from all the white smoke.  It was coming from the breather caps as well as out of a few of the spark plug tubes.  I am guessing that I need to lower the fuel pressure even more , but we can deal with that in a moment.

The car started when my wife turned it over, but I turned the distributor a tiny bit in the clockwise direction.  In the beginning, it was running pretty high (the handheld said it was at 1200 RPM.  Trying to turn the distributor in either direction made it run a little worse, so I got it back to where it ran the best and tightened it down.  A few times it sounded like it was going to stall, so I hit the throttle a little and it came back.  This I only had to do like 2 times.

When I used the timing light, it was at 60 degrees BTDC  HAHAHA  No Idea.  I tried loosening the distributor a little and turning it counter clockwise a tiny bit at a time (when I did this the timing went more toward 30 degrees BTDC, but then sounded like it was going to stall.  So I put it back to its temporary sweet spot and let it run.  After a few more minutes, the white smoke stopped completely. 

UNfortunately I did not start filming the video until about this time........  However, the handheld finished "cycling the program" as the engine got up to operating temperature.  You can hear in the video that the engine sounds identical to the "Tom Fry 427 SOHC" video on youtube.  Honestly, it it didnt start overheating, I would have loved to let it run a lot longer and let the computer keep learning and dialing it in.  By the end of the video, the RPM's were ranging from 1000 to 1150.

I am not sure why the overflow tank started to boil over, but is it possible the thermostat did not open?  Or is it because the overflow tank is tied into the top radiator hose instead of its usual location on the bottom radiator hose?

Long story short, after I shut the car off to let it cool down, (about 30 minutes), I tried turning the key and it would not start.  The distributor is in the same location it was tightened down as the car ran beautifully for the last 30 minutes or so.  Why is that?  LOL  still too much fuel pressure? 

If I could get the car to run like it was at the end of the video ...... and start up as soon as I turned the key (and not overheat).....  I would be set!  Any and all thoughts are welcome and appreciated!!!!!!  I have to say again I am sorry for the quality of the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBpGR1edWBo

You can tell from the start of the video to the end that the EFI computer starts to learn and the RPM's drop to a more mormal sounding engine
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on May 09, 2015, 04:31:12 PM
If it was me, I would pull a couple of plugs now and have a look see.
Not sure bout that timing thing.

It is really a great job you did bringing a SOHC to life. BZ!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 09, 2015, 08:24:43 PM
Couple things....

That wispy white smoke is steam and you shouldn't be having that coming out of the overflow bottle.  Did you top off the coolant after the thermostat opened?

The other thing is that blue smoke that was hanging in the air was oil mist.  You should never have that much smoke or mist coming out of the breathers, even in the first few seconds.  Torque plate honed cylinders with the correct rings and gaps just don't smoke.

Take some time to make sure your timing marks are correct.  It's very easy to cook an engine with incorrect timing.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 09, 2015, 09:11:57 PM
Honestly, not sure anout the timing. The coolant expansion tank was boiling, and I know why...  I forgot i pulled the sensor that turns on the fans in order to get more movement on the distributor. i think the thermostat opened, but the fans never kicked on.... So it overheated

The white smoke was definitely gas vapor. It realed of gas and was burning my eyes. It actually went away totally after a while of running... Just about the time the computer went into learn mode ( once engine was up to temperature). I am positive I have TDC marked correctly. At most maybe or + or - 2 degrees. How its running well at 60 BTDC... No idea. Even reved it up toward the end and was very responsive. Then it dropped right back to the 1000 RPM no problem

I reinstalled the temp sensor for the fans and am going to try running it again Monday.  Maybe i should take the thermostat out?  Do I really need it anyway?

Also monday, i will pull the plugs like Howie said and see if they are fouled. Im guessing low 20's on the fuel PSI would be best, but time will tell
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 09, 2015, 10:12:52 PM
You need the thermostat, the EFI needs the temp to be stable to allow to choose the proper strategy and various different values at different times.

One thing that concerns me though, is your learning comment with the EFI.  The learning ability of EFI is only to do minor tweaks. It is really not designed to take a poor base tune and bring it to good.  Is it possible you made a mistake in programming?  That could also explain why you needed to band-aid it with low fuel pressure
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on May 10, 2015, 06:36:56 AM
2X to 427. Drill a 3/16ths hole in the perimeter to allow coolant flow. Check it first in a pot of near boiling water to ensure it actually does open.

http://erareplicas.com/427man/cooling/thermomod.htm

Others here can speak volumes on aftermarket EFI control systems, but as noted something is badly amiss with your base timing...and maybe fuel parameters too.  Is it automatically retarding the timing (like a ton!) at the key start (cranking)?  If the base timing at say 10-13 degrees is mechanically locked in at the ditzy, it should start.  I'll also question your timing light's accuracy. Can you borrow an old school non-dial back light and check it against your current light? If so, pull the plugs, pop them back into the boot,  ground them with duct tape to the intake, and have someone crank it over while you check the initial distributor mechanical setting.   

MSD's and EFI controllers have often messed up accurate timing with many a trick timing light. Ask me how I know this! 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 10, 2015, 06:52:57 AM
I would pull the plugs before you did anything else, especially run it again.  Post pics of them here. 

On the timing, if you're 100% confident that the balancer/pointer is right, then you absolutely can not run that engine at 60°. 

I'm not trying to be negative Ned here, but you have a very expensive engine and a lot of things are balanced against you right now....you've already overheated it, you've had it rich enough to supposedly push fuel vapor out of the breathers, and you've had the timing WAY advanced.  Take your time, think through things, and bounce things off of us here.  Don't want to see you have to pull this one out and tear it back down. 

Bob raised a good point....are you using a dial-back light?

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on May 10, 2015, 07:04:43 AM
Here's an old school, non-dial back light. Doesn't need to be a Sears light either, just a non-dial back unit. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Sears-Best-Craftsman-Chrome-Inductive-Timing-Light-Model-28-2134-/151670632020?hash=item2350462e54&item=151670632020&vxp=mtr
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 10, 2015, 10:29:11 AM
Used a method i saw online where you use a really long ratchet extention. ( really thin one) and when you are at the compression stroke, you insert the extension down into the cylinder and rest it on the piston. As my father slowly turned the crank clockwise, there was a point where the extension stopped moving up....  When this happened, i made note of the degrees where the pointer was.  Then slowly he kept turning the crank clockwise until the extension just barely moved ( on its way back down). At this point i made note of the degrees on the crank.

OK first, this is a method to get you close, but it is not as accurate as a piston stop.  I think you still need to figure out where TDC is.  It can't be at 60, who knows where it is, but it doesn't make sense.  I would also run through firing order very carefully too, although it didn't sound bad, there is some reason why turning the distributor is acting funny and not normally, worth a check.

Next, your EFI

First, I stand corrected on my last comment, I dug into their instructions and EZ EFI actually changes the base tables as it learns, so with enough running, it will fix them.  I am not sure I would like that long term, because if you had a vacuum leak or something else, it would try to fix it with tuning, but once you get it close you can shut it down, common for tuners to do.

Second, looking at your setup.  Can you confirm that:
- Engine CID was set accurately
- It was set for dual throttle bodies

Also, when you can get it to run well, a movie of the diagnostic screen (without moving around so much like the last movie) :)

Values of the following at idle:

TAF
AF
O2C%
CTS(F)
TPS
INJDC%
RPM

I like to look at what the computer is trying to do, because it often tells you where you went wrong as it tries to do better.

Final question, how far away from the exhaust port is your O2 sensor?  As if you had a tape measure going from the header gasket (at the head, through the pipes to the O2 sensor.  The farther away is is, the less effective it is due to cooling as well as late reaction, especially at idle.

In my tunes on EEC-IV I often have to delay it and correct it slightly.  Shorties headers, not so much, but my 489 with long tube Hookers and the O2 sensors in the H pipe, needed tweaking.  Easy to do on a more capable computer, but if yours are WAY back, may want to move it much farther upstream becore you coat the headers.  More on that after you get some info
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 10, 2015, 04:23:38 PM
Ok, on my phone right now, but wanted to toss out a few answers. I am using a very basic timing light. I saw the dial back one, butwent for the basic

2, iwill pull the plugs and photo each... And post

3 rd, i remember the tech at fast saying that 1 throttle bodyat43 psi would almost be enough to support the engine... Almost.  So if i have twice as many injectors, shouldnt my fuel pressure be closer to 22 - 24 psi???

4 th... Pretty sure on TDC. Did it twice to ensure we were correct before I stuck the timing tape.
Engine overheated because fans never kicked on and the fans never kicked ou because i had the saleen trmp sensor disconnected ( by accident)
Also it prob doesnt help that my expansion tank it tied into the top radiator line ( boiling water before its cooled through the radiator). Might want to move that with some plumbing.

5 th... The O2 sensor is in the passenger side collector. This is prob 18 to 21 inches ( along the tubes) from the flange and gasket. Honestly there is no way to move it any closer without moving it into just 1 single tube. Lol. There is a picture a page or 2 back showing the header with bung installed on the car

6th... Went back in and checked and its definitley at 482 ci and dual quad is still selected.

7th...  I have a piston stop, but due to the fact that I can only turn the crank clocwise ( when tou try turning counterclockwise you untighten the balancer bolt). I hadto resort to this method. Also, we did it twice and got the same numbers twice before i stuck the timing tape on. Tdc ended up being at 9 degrees ATDC on the original balancer marks
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on May 10, 2015, 04:31:20 PM
Jason -

Flow rate is not linearly proportional to fuel pressure.  In other words, 21 psi does not equal half the fuel flow of 42 psi.  It's a lot more complicated due to fuel viscosity, losses throughout the path through the injector, etc.

Hopefully you get the timing issues sorted out quickly!

- Bill
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 10, 2015, 05:06:09 PM
Pulled plug #1 and plug# 2.  Solid black with wet "oily" gas smelling slick.  It wiped right off with a cloth, and not the 2 plugs are shiny once again.  Its obvious we are going in the right direction moving from 43 psi to 31, but its still too rich.  Found a forum post on another website where a guy had dual quads on a chevelle 400+ ci engine and he was running between 25 and 28 and still having excess fuel issues.  I will call the fast tech tomorrow and discuss. Below is pictures of plug 1 and 2


One big question I have is if the engine is running too rich, could that be why its running at 60 degrees btdc?  Meaning as I lean out the fuel pressure, maybe it will run better closer to 13 to 14 degrees btdc????
Plug 1:
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/8B050DD0-949F-4BD0-BF92-AF733F51C75D_zpszjf9rosw.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/8B050DD0-949F-4BD0-BF92-AF733F51C75D_zpszjf9rosw.jpg.html)


Plug 2:

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/4F5294FD-86E3-493F-BE19-8AB10972A9F3_zpspf7ljazz.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/4F5294FD-86E3-493F-BE19-8AB10972A9F3_zpspf7ljazz.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on May 10, 2015, 06:31:19 PM
Now I'm just throwing this out there.
Could you have forgot to put the key in the damper?

Also if it was moi, moi would go to a standard copper plug something like the Champ RC12YC or the NGK BKR6E
or AR3924.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on May 10, 2015, 06:45:22 PM
2X to a conventional copper core plug!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 10, 2015, 07:04:05 PM
Key is installed in the crank balancer. Also I have other plugs, but these didnt need to be gapped and were said to be better? 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on May 10, 2015, 09:11:17 PM
It's a strange plug, for sure.

Also, wiring?

Per MSD Tech.....

PARK PLUGS AND WIRES
Spark plug wires are very important to the operation of your ignition system. A good quality, helically wound wire and proper routing are required to get the best performance from your ignition, such as the MSD Heli-Core or 8.5mm Super Conductor Wire.
Note: Solid Core spark plug wires cannot be used with an MSD Ignition.
A helically, or spiral wound wire must be used. This style wire provides a good path for the spark to follow while keeping Electro Magnetic Interference (EMI) to a minimum. Excessive EMI, such as the amount that solid core wires produce, will interfere with the operation of the MSD.
Figure 1 Tach Terminal
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 10, 2015, 09:32:49 PM
I have some other things to do and will come back and read everything BUT your logic on the fuel may be logical but dead wrong :)

The computer adjusts the fuel based on inputs, you don't adjust using using base pressure different than what you tell the computer.  If that was required there would be no need for injector tuning, nor would there be all the sensors to help.  The ONLY job of the computer is injector timing, pulse, and duration (and fast idle) everything else is an input.  When you try to trick the computer, it has a false base to make decisions.  Not to mention, as you drop pressure, the pattern gets messier and messier, eventually dribbling at low duty cycles

1 - The computer accounts for 2 sets of injectors when you select dual throttle bodies and adjusts, your 1/2 logic is already accounted for when you chose dual TBs
2 - The computer uses injector pulse width and injector slope to determine how much fuel is entered into the engine at the input pressure.  So if you adjust the pressure differently than the input, it no longer accurately adjusts
3 - You may think your TDC is close, and it likely is, but your method will NOT get it exact, close but not exact.  I am not blaming anything on timing, but realize you could easily be a few degrees off.
4 - Take all the plugs out, go either way, the crank bolt won't loosen, if it does, you have something else wrong or the bolt is too loose.
5 - Too much injector is almost impossible, its not a carb, the computer just sprays for a shorter duration or a different shaped flow curve.
6 - I really don't like what the EFI tech is telling you. 

Those plugs are indicative of a bad tune, I'd put a set of cheap Autolites in it, then go back and rebuild the initial tune carefully.  You can play with those after it's dialed in, but they won't help you, just a shiny object

If you get me the data I asked for I will help the best I can, but without seeing what the computer is telling you, there is no way to tune other than just starting over and being careful to make sure you don't fat finger the data
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 10, 2015, 10:16:24 PM
UsingMSD 8.5 superconductor wires

Pulled last of the plugs, all just as black as first 2. Replaced them with brand new autolights

Going to call FAST tomorrow and discuss fuel with them again

A few things I want to do before firing again though. Drain oil and check, replace if still good and clean. I aant to move the radiator expansion tankto the lower radiator hose, i want to pull the thermostat and drill the bypass hole mentioned earlier, and then get a more informative description from FAST tech as to why they keep telling me to leave the computer at 43 pai, but turn the regular down to 32 psi ( which from the look of the plugs is wayyyyy too rich). At this point, wish i just had carbs. Hahahah.  Update everyone tomorrow. Thanks guys for all the input
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 10, 2015, 10:50:15 PM
Copy all, let us know.  Those EZ EFIs don't have much to adjust, if you are resistant to get to the second half of the instruction manual, where you read the values its commanding and seeing, you'll fight it until the end.

The data will tell you if you have a sensor, setup, or ECM problem.  Hopefully you get a good tech.



Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on May 10, 2015, 10:54:55 PM
Jason -

I'd think carefully before relocating that "expansion tank" to the lower radiator hose.  That tank in the modern cooling system of your Saleen is actually a degas bottle.  It needs to be at the highest point in the cooling system.  This gives the gas bubbles in the coolant a place to accumulate.

If you connect the tank to a lower point in the system, you'll end up with gas pockets at other points in the system.  This will make your life (and your engine) miserable.

- Bill
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 10, 2015, 11:16:41 PM
Jason -

I'd think carefully before relocating that "expansion tank" to the lower radiator hose.  That tank in the modern cooling system of your Saleen is actually a degas bottle.  It needs to be at the highest point in the cooling system.  This gives the gas bubbles in the coolant a place to accumulate.

If you connect the tank to a lower point in the system, you'll end up with gas pockets at other points in the system.  This will make your life (and your engine) miserable.

- Bill

Bill, makes me wonder, do they flow the opposite direction on the new ones?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on May 10, 2015, 11:44:19 PM
Ross -

It could very well have been a top-down cooling system in the stock Mustang that year, but Jason has done up a new radiator (I think!) so it should be back to the old-style FE system.  I didn't pore over the old posts to verify this.

Either way, the bubbles will want to go to the highest point no matter if the coolant is going towards or away from the engine.  You also want to pick the bubbles off the highest hose, or they will tend to get trapped at another high spot.

BTW - Your direct knowledge of these new self-learning EFI systems is very enlightening.  I've been away from that stuff for quite a while!

- Bill
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on May 11, 2015, 08:01:37 AM
Ross -

It could very well have been a top-down cooling system in the stock Mustang that year, but Jason has done up a new radiator (I think!) so it should be back to the old-style FE system.  I didn't pore over the old posts to verify this.

Either way, the bubbles will want to go to the highest point no matter if the coolant is going towards or away from the engine.  You also want to pick the bubbles off the highest hose, or they will tend to get trapped at another high spot.

BTW - Your direct knowledge of these new self-learning EFI systems is very enlightening.  I've been away from that stuff for quite a while!

- Bill

I'm with Bill. Ross, your knowledge of modern EFI systems is great.....I'll know who to ask if I ever dabble in a similar system! Heck, I'll just bring the car and write a check...LOL!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 11, 2015, 08:23:31 AM
Hey guys. NO! I did not replace the radiator. And yes, i believe the flow is reversed in the 2005 system. Would this have made a difference? Will coolant not flow the other direction through the stock radiator?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on May 11, 2015, 09:20:02 AM
Jason -

From what I can see the radiator should be fine for standard flow.  Hopefully it is sized sufficiently for the big SOHC.

I think you will need to make sure those air pockets are out of the system before you can get proper cooling.  It's called "burping" the system.  Often that entails putting the front end of the car on jack stands to get the radiator as high as possible.  Here's one procedure:

http://www.supras.com/06/techcenter/display.php?QID=22

- Bill
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 11, 2015, 09:41:04 AM
OK will do.  That should be easy enough.

OK also, I just got off the phone with the EFI tech (William at extension 1424)  LOL.  I explained to him that by leaving the handheld showing 43 PSI and dialing back the regulator, I got the engine to run.  Since this has been spoken about on here for a few posts, I gave him the ol' Dragnet!  I asked why the handheld has to remain at 43 PSI, but the fuel pressure controlled at the regulator has to be lower.  He answered that in essence we have to "trick" the computer to use their proven algorithym (the correct pulse), but have less fuel being fed into the injectors.

At this point I asked, " So why would we need to do this is the setup procedure asks if we are using a single throttle body or the dual throttle body set up?  Wouldn't the computer then know we are using twice as many injectors and compensate...."  At which time he said no!  LOL  he explained that you can tell the handheld that you are using the dual quad, but the computer has a very limited number of things it changes based off of that information... and fuel going to the injectors is not one of them.  He explained again that they have a proven "pulse" for their EFI, and since there is 2 times as many injectors, they want the injectors to use the pulse (which happens when you put 43 PSI on the handheld), but have less fuel coming out of the injector during each pulse.

He also said since the plugs were black, we can dial the fuel pressure regulator down some more (Maybe 28 would be the next step), but he said that the injectors wont really work at 24 or lower PSI.

So next step for me:

The expansion tank....  I have it so that there is a "nipple" coming out of the bottom (facing the ground) of a fitting on the upper radiator hose, at which time it curves in a "U" shape to come back up to the fitting on the expanision tank.  I am curious if this is why its having trouble burping air out.

Like stated before, the expansion tank originally (on the stock engine) was connected to the lower radiator hose and it was a straight shot up to the tank.... where air pockets could be let out of the system.  If I move the expansion tank to connect to the lower radiator hose (but leave the tank higher than the engine, wouldn't it still catch air bubbles as the water is sucked up into the waterpump from the lower hose (and at a straighter path- meaning strait up to the tank?)

I am going to pull the thermostat and drill the bypass hole.

I am going to drain the oil to make sure there is not any coolant in there, or excessive metal flakes.  Then I will hopefully reuse the same oil (since it was break in oil) or I can add 8 quarts of new oil.

I will refill the coolant again (Prestone 50/50) and with the front of the car up on jacks, try and start the car again.

I have already pulled the E3 diamond fire sparkplugs, and replaced them all with an Autolight plug I had originally purchased after discussing with Jay months ago.

This EFI is prob great if you only use 1 throttle body.....  2 looks great but its a huge pain.  I don't think the company should have made 2 available without working out all the bugs and not having the computer work with it...  (Meaning you shouldn't have to trick the computer to work)  expecially for the $$$ it costs
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on May 11, 2015, 12:04:23 PM
Jason -

I'm pretty sure the tank needs to be off the top hose in a standard flow system.  The water would be coming down out of the radiator, so all of the air bubbles would still be trapped in the radiator.  With the stock reverse-flow system, the water would be flowing fast out of the engine to the bottom hose, pulling all of the air bubbles with it.

I could be wrong, but I've never seen a successful application where the degas tank is off the bottom hose (on a standard flow system).

- Bill
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 11, 2015, 12:09:55 PM
Ok sounds good. Less work and less to worry about for me.
Drained the oil.  First great sign.... No coolant in the oil.
Second good sign, still pretty clear....
Third, no metal that i could initally see

Wanting to reuse this same oil, i got a clean plastic container and a clean funnel and slowly added the oil back looking for metal. The great news is, no metal!  Not until the last ounce did I see like maybe 10 specs of metal .... And im talking like tiny(like a piece of sand or smaller).


Pictures below


(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/3D879E1F-06A4-445D-A514-D80636E4873C_zpsylvdivhy.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/3D879E1F-06A4-445D-A514-D80636E4873C_zpsylvdivhy.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/FEA4B8C1-03D8-48EE-9B51-D529DA36E9B1_zpsyxjm01jw.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/FEA4B8C1-03D8-48EE-9B51-D529DA36E9B1_zpsyxjm01jw.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/BEF8EFCB-CBF4-4AE8-B55B-5DA8F8BE9C3A_zps7yy3f0bb.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/BEF8EFCB-CBF4-4AE8-B55B-5DA8F8BE9C3A_zps7yy3f0bb.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 11, 2015, 01:56:06 PM
I wouldn't reuse that oil with how rich the engine has been running.

You also need to cut the filter open to see what's really going on. 

On the last pic, is that debris that you're focusing on?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 11, 2015, 02:01:38 PM
Hard to see in the last photo, but there are like 10 tiny specs of metal.  This was all that I found in the entire 8 quarts.

Also, oil doesn't smell like fuel at all.  Smells just like brand new oil out of the container
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 11, 2015, 02:03:39 PM
You'll generally just see a metallic sheen in some of the oil on a break-in.  The filter should catch all the big stuff.  You may want to cut your filter open and take a peek. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 11, 2015, 02:07:36 PM
I will work on getting a replacement filter before I dissect the one on there now  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 11, 2015, 02:20:44 PM
Again, I'm not trying to come across as negative, but if I were to see discernible pieces of metal in the drain oil, I would be cutting the filter open.  The filter should catch everything and it's normal to get bits of sealant, or aluminum that has shaken off the heads/block, etc., but you shouldn't be getting discernible pieces of metal in the oil that you drain out. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 11, 2015, 02:27:41 PM
I will cut open the filter shortly.  The engine only ran for about 30 minutes and at no time was it over 1200 RPM (So technically not a good break in).

The "Pieces" of metal are quite literally like specs of sand.  unless you stick your face in the pan, you can almost not see them.

I would replace the filter anyway, so cutting this one up should be interesting.  I guess I was just excited also because I have magnetic drain plugs, and there was very little on those too! 

Will probably want to cut open the filter the 2nd time I run the engine too....  to see if things are better, worse, or the same.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 11, 2015, 02:31:56 PM
Never hurts to check it out. 

So how many engines have you assembled before?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 11, 2015, 02:33:37 PM
LOL  this was my first.

Just ordered 2 of the Moroso Racing oil filters (that's whats on there now).  I will remove and cut open the current one when these arrive.  Thanks again guys
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 11, 2015, 02:37:08 PM
Well, I'll give it to you, you sure picked a doozy of a combination for your first engine.   I'll give you props for that. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 11, 2015, 04:59:43 PM
OK so I took the advice given and I pulled the thermostat.  I still had an extra thermostat housing gasket, so I was good to go.  Brought it into the house and boiled it.  It opened all the way.  So it does work.  So then I decided to continue with the advice given and drill 2 small bypass holes on the thermostat itself.  As the water neck is quite small where the thermostat fits into (the pyramid part), the hole placement was quite tricky.

its all tightened back down and ready to go.

Also, today my spark plug tube covers came from Texas.  I am definitely going to wait until everything is sorted out before these go on and the plug wires are trimmed to fit perfectly.

Next stop is pulling the oil filter (when my new ones arrive) and refilling the engine with Prestone 50/50 antifreeze.  Just out of curious, does anyone know how much antifreeze goes in these engines?  My first go around, I used 3 jugs....  but lost most when it overheated
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 11, 2015, 06:53:58 PM
Ross -

It could very well have been a top-down cooling system in the stock Mustang that year, but Jason has done up a new radiator (I think!) so it should be back to the old-style FE system.  I didn't pore over the old posts to verify this.

Either way, the bubbles will want to go to the highest point no matter if the coolant is going towards or away from the engine.  You also want to pick the bubbles off the highest hose, or they will tend to get trapped at another high spot.

BTW - Your direct knowledge of these new self-learning EFI systems is very enlightening.  I've been away from that stuff for quite a while!

- Bill

I'm with Bill. Ross, your knowledge of modern EFI systems is great.....I'll know who to ask if I ever dabble in a similar system! Heck, I'll just bring the car and write a check...LOL!

Thanks guys, I like this stuff, like carbs too, glad to help.  I'd love to tune this cammer, how far from Omaha are you?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 11, 2015, 07:30:16 PM
Ft Lauderdale, Florida.... So what...half an hour maybe?  Lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 11, 2015, 07:33:38 PM
Distance, way of life, weather, scenery, all a VERY long way away :)

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 11, 2015, 07:33:54 PM
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/BBAB8CC2-76D6-425C-9D76-D794A963143A_zpsmvnazr9w.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/BBAB8CC2-76D6-425C-9D76-D794A963143A_zpsmvnazr9w.jpg.html)

Ok so coolant tank "degas" tank has to be linked to bottom radiator hose.  It also has a 2nd line that pulls air bubbles from the radiator.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 11, 2015, 07:38:17 PM
Ahh, that's very different.  Good pic

Standard flow system, but degas bottle is exactly as the name implies, a second outlet from the top of the radiator being pulled on by the pump from the lower hose.  Any "gas" at the top of the radiator is pulled into the bottle where it is separated from the liquid until it cools
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on May 11, 2015, 11:50:36 PM
Yup- Very interesting!  The second line from the top of the radiator changes everything.  That should probably work OK with the bottle hooked to the lower hose...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 12, 2015, 08:36:47 AM
The degas tank hooks to the lower hose through a funky stand alone thermostat housing in the Saleen.  Luckily I kept it.  It actually has the 180- degree thermostat that was used in the 4.6 Modular engine I took out.  I may remove the 190 degree thermostat from the water neck and just utilize the thermostat housed in the lover radiator hose fixture.  I would do the reverse, but the thermostat housing only stays watertight because of a rubber O ring that presses against the housing and the thermostat.  If I take out the stock thermostat, the housing wont be water tight anymore.  This should be good though.

Also,  What exactly am I looking for in the Oil filter when I take it apart?  I know there is going to be something in there because it a brand new engine ....  but what's acceptable and what is bad?

Tried looking this up online, but everyone has a different opinion.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 12, 2015, 08:40:02 AM
Post pics, we can help tell if it's normal or not.  You're gonna get *some* stuff in there, but you're looking for excessive amounts of that stuff. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 12, 2015, 11:17:35 AM
Will do.

Also, I have been digging and digging for information on this EZ EFI dual quad system.

I got the car running beautifully the other day, but It would not restart.  Now I have talked to 5 FAST techs and have gotten 5 completely different answers on every question I asked.  Somewhere in their tech forum website, there was mention of the 12 V switched power wire.

To job every ones memory, I originally thought this was my issue when the car wouldn't run.  It ended up being fuel pressure and noise on the ground wire (ECU) from the MSD ground to the battery.

After these changes, I got the car running and idling at 1000-1100 RPM.  However after you shut it off, it wouldn't restart.

In this forum, it specifically stated that the 12V switched wire CAN NOT be shared with any other device.  It has to be all by its self on a clean 12 V source.  Now this is one of the questions I asked the FAST techs 5 times with a answers ranging from "yes" that's your issue, to "No Way" would that interfere...  to "Maybe". 

I am just going to go buy 2 cool looking "aircraft" style toggle switched (with the red flip covers) and wire them up individually to the battery.  Clean sources for the FAST ECU.... and while I am at it, a clean source for the MSD 6A box.  I will leave the Transmission lock out solenoid connected where it is currently.  It cant hurt, plus for my luck its probably why the car wont start back up after running.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 12, 2015, 11:29:22 AM
Glad to see you working through the issues.  If your timing is really at 60 degrees BTDC, I think that is probably the reason why the car won't start back up once it is warm.  You might be able to start an engine cold with that much timing, but not hot.  And it will never run correctly with that much timing.  Somehow you have to get the timing issue addressed.  Additional timing will make the engine want to idle faster; if yours won't idle at lower timing settings, the EFI unit may not know what to do with the inputs its getting.  Too bad you're not closer; if you were I'd come over and pop a couple of Holleys on that engine to get it running correctly, then start the EFI tune from there.

Also glad to see that you are dedicating a line to the 12V switched power on the EFI box, and again I think it would be a real good idea to get one of those MSD capacitors I mentioned earlier, and put one across the main power/ground to the EFI box, and also to the MSD box.  Noise on the input power supply is a common EFI bugaboo...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 12, 2015, 01:11:35 PM
Thanks Jay.

I just wanted to verify....  I tried 2 weekends ago to set "Exact" TDC, but with the piston stop installed, I was able to rotate the engine clockwise with a breaker bar pretty smoothly.....(it took quite some leverage to turn), but was not able to rotate the engine counterclockwise (and yes I had all of the sparkplugs out).  Is this normal?  we tried 2 times to do it, but just loosened the balancer bolt both times.  I am guessing because of all of that Timing chain, and the 2 cams turning against springs, and the tensioner.....not realistic to be able to turn counterclockwise?

I am positive (within 1 to 2 degrees) that I have TDC marked correctly on the balancer now with the tape....  But the first time I had it running, the balancer said 30 degrees BDTC (before I retested TDC) and now that I have TDC re-marked with a new timing tape, I get it running and the Balancer says 60 degrees BTDC.  I did notice that it did not take much of a turn to get that number to fall... but when I did so (and the timing light started to read as low as 30 degrees btdc, the engine sounded bad.

I think with this "Stupid" EFI, I will have to get it running at whatever gets it started....  then because it quickly leans and makes changes by itself, I will have to slowly turn the distributor a bit a at a time in order to get closer and closer to 13 degrees BTDC... each time giving the computer time to learn and even out.

Or find someone with 2 carbs  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 12, 2015, 03:23:11 PM
I torque the bolt at the end of the crank to 150 foot pounds, which is way over the spec, but I like to make sure that the timing timing gear is pinned by a lot of force to the crank.  One by-product of this is that I can turn the engine backwards without loosening the bolt.  An SOHC is going to be more difficult to turn backwards than a normal pushrod FE, but if that front bolt is tight, you should still be able to do it.

From the sound of it, you are probably very close on TDC anyway.  Even if you are off +/- 5 degrees, you should not be running at 60 degrees BTDC at idle.  Your plan to get the engine running and then slowly back off the timing makes sense; hopefully the FAST box will learn as you make adjustments. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Barry_R on May 12, 2015, 08:43:14 PM
Without going back and finding out (I have followed along but sporadically...) can you tell me which F.A.S.T. controller you are using?  I have run many of the xFI systems with very good results, by my experience with the simpler EZ-EFI systems has been less than stellar.

On a fairly mild single throttle body multi-port system it worked pretty well, but on a couple of IR "Weber style" setups it never really worked properly.  The EZ self learning system lives completely on the feedback from the oxygen sensor.  An oxygen sensor senses "oxygen" (sounds pretty obvious...) not mixture.  Lacking other sensors the EZ-EFI reads a rich misfire as "lean" & then makes the darn thing even richer.  On OE or the XFi systems you can get into the base map & set correction limits that prevent the runaway adjustments from going off the reservation, but the EZ-EFI will keep going until black smoke is boiling out of the pipes.

One other thing to note is that the self learning F.A.S.T. system needs to see 180 degree coolant temperature before it starts correcting on the dyno - you can watch the A/F ratio start swinging once you hit that temp.  The literature I had claimed 160 degrees but it would not move on the dyno until we warmed it up further.  It moves slowly - needs to "park" at a given load & RPM for several seconds before changing, and then it will sweep rich and then lean in decreasing amounts as it homes in on the chosen target A/F ratio.  To get it to develop a VE map we would park it at - for example - 3000 RPM and 40 pounds torque for five minutes, then move to 3500 RPM and 60 pounds, etc - took a looooong time to get a fairly complete map.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on May 12, 2015, 10:30:35 PM
On a fairly mild single throttle body multi-port system it worked pretty well, but on a couple of IR "Weber style" setups it never really worked properly.  The EZ self learning system lives completely on the feedback from the oxygen sensor.  An oxygen sensor senses "oxygen" (sounds pretty obvious...) not mixture.  Lacking other sensors the EZ-EFI reads a rich misfire as "lean" & then makes the darn thing even richer.  On OE or the XFi systems you can get into the base map & set correction limits that prevent the runaway adjustments from going off the reservation, but the EZ-EFI will keep going until black smoke is boiling out of the pipes.

One other thing to note is that the self learning F.A.S.T. system needs to see 180 degree coolant temperature before it starts correcting on the dyno - you can watch the A/F ratio start swinging once you hit that temp.  The literature I had claimed 160 degrees but it would not move on the dyno until we warmed it up further.  It moves slowly - needs to "park" at a given load & RPM for several seconds before changing, and then it will sweep rich and then lean in decreasing amounts as it homes in on the chosen target A/F ratio.  To get it to develop a VE map we would park it at - for example - 3000 RPM and 40 pounds torque for five minutes, then move to 3500 RPM and 60 pounds, etc - took a looooong time to get a fairly complete map.

That certainly doesn't sound like a good way to break in an engine (not commenting on your engine, Barry, just in general). I think if I were to use any type of system like that, I would be looking at breaking in the engine with a basic carb set-up until it had an hour or so run-in time and everything was looking good. Then I would switch it over to the EFI system. There are just too many crucial things going on during break-in to be running the engine way rich or lean. Just my opinion, and doesn't help the situation here.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 12, 2015, 11:11:35 PM
Unfortunately, its the EZ EFI. What I wouldnt do to return and go with 2 holly double pumpers.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 13, 2015, 05:49:50 AM
Try to get it close and get me those running values when you can.  In the end, you could always drive the TBs with a different controller, but I don't think you need that yet.

I still think the 60 BTDC timing is screaming at you telling you something isn't marked right or ???  Just doesn't make sense
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 13, 2015, 08:36:02 AM
Hi Ross,

I will definitely get you those #'s.  I just have a few things to do (change out oil filter and redo the plumbing on the radiator) and then I will get her started again.  I will post another video.... I will also try and go through each screen of the handheld so we can see everything.  Unfortunately (Unlinke the FAST EFI 2.0) where all of the live data is on one screen....  This version has like 5 different screens you have to scroll through.

Thanks again
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on May 13, 2015, 10:02:31 AM
Just a thought! Is the cams timed right when you have to run 60 deg.ingnition
and the engines minor respond to you rotating the distributor
and you timed the cams after the old 0 mark that was wrong??
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on May 13, 2015, 10:21:09 AM
Heo may be on to something here!

Jay may be the best one the one to really answer but....if TDC wasn't anywhere near correct beforehand, how can the cam timing be correct?

Yet, it did run albeit with 60 degrees BTDC.

'Course, one way to check is to degree the cams now in light of a correct or almost near correct TDC mark. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 13, 2015, 10:41:04 AM
Very good point, Heo.  Jason, I hate to open that can of worms again but you should do what you need to do to accurately find TDC, with a piston stop, and then check the cam timing.  If the original TDC mark was off, your cam timing is off, and the engine won't run right if the cam timing is off by much.

I'd suggest you torque that front bolt on the crank way up, so that you can turn the engine backwards with it, or else pull the starter, or the inspection cover on the bell (if there is one), so you can rotate the flywheel backwards with a screwdriver in the teeth (careful with that, so you don't damage the teeth).  Or, find some other way to turn the engine backwards so you can use the piston stop to find TDC.  Once you are positive on the location of TDC, you can check the cam timing the way you did before.

I can imagine how frustrated you must be at this point, but hang in there, you'll get it worked out...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: drdano on May 13, 2015, 11:06:58 AM
Dumb question, but timing is being set on front passenger side cylinder right?

If you took a long plastic straw and dropped it through the #1 plug hole as you very slowly turned the motor over, you should be able to feel roughly where TDC is with the rise and fall of the piston.  That would at least get you in the ballpark.  May take a few revolutions, but I think you could get a really good idea where true TDC is at.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on May 13, 2015, 11:24:01 AM
Heo makes a good point!  I wonder if the cam timing is retarded.  That would make it harder to start for sure! 

That's dangerous territory on a SOHC, as we all know.  Hopefully Jason hasn't hurt any exhaust valves from closing too late.

- Bill
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 13, 2015, 12:40:12 PM
Hey guys. Cam timing is correct (100% sure) because i did this when I had TDC correct ( with the temporary pointer and the degree wheel). I checked cam timing 3 times. Lol  Of note, Jay had me alter the time caming a little on each cam (right was different then left)....  105 degrees on the drivers side cam and 102 degrees on the passenger side cam.  I think (and I may be wrong) this was in anticipation of chain stretch?

If you all remember, the cams I got from Racedyne were not marked correctly. This is basically why I had to ignore the cams marks and degree the cams solely with the dial indicator.

I originally had TDC correct (again 100% sure) with the degree wheel.  The wire timing pointer you use with the degree wheel was my source for TDC.  It was at this point (because where the timing pointer that gets installed on the timing cover did not point to "true" TDC) that I should have used a timing tape to mark TDC.

Long story short, I am 1000% sure on the cams.  I even checked how much room I had between the piston and the valves at 15 degrees BDTC, 10 degrees, 5 degrees, TDC and up to 15 degrees ATDC.  All of this checked out perfectly too.

After I timed the cams the last time, I even turned the engine over to make sure that the intake valve and exhaust valves opened where the cam card said they should (checking it against the degree wheel and the wire pointer.

All in all, my biggest mistake in this whole build was not marking TDC with a timing tape (because the balancer TDC did not show true TDC as found with the degree wheel) at that time.

I may take Jays advice and Tighten that crank bolt tighter in order to be able to turn the crank backward....  And be exactly on TDC instead of 2 or 3 degrees off in one direction or the other.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 13, 2015, 12:48:54 PM
Yes, cam timing is set when you degree, in which you should have found true TDC with the degree wheel.   Has nothing to do with the harmonic balancer.  If you used a piston stop in conjunction with the degree wheel, then based your cam timing adjustments off of that, you should be good. 

I don't think I followed when you were bolting on the timing pointer/balancer, but is there a valid reason to believe that it's jacked up?  I've seen balancers out 2-3 degrees, then we have the normal 7° issue with ATI's, but other than that, you shouldn't have a 30-40 degree discrepancy unless the pointer is in the wrong spot and you didn't remark the balancer.

Does the computer control the amount of ignition timing advance?  Do you have REALLY fast curve?

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 13, 2015, 12:52:23 PM
Hey guys. Cam timing is correct because i dis this when I had TDC correct ( with the temporary pointer and the degree wheel). I checked cam timing 3 times. Lol
Well, that's a relief LOL!  (As you can see, we are all pulling for you...)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 13, 2015, 01:23:37 PM
From what I remember, the Area where the timing pointer went was not close to TDC as it was found with the degree wheel. Its a pioneer harmonic balancer.

Efi system does not control timing, so jay suggested the correct bushing and spring combo to use in the MSD distributor

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on May 13, 2015, 01:26:00 PM
If you need to jam something into the flywheel teeth to get max torque and don't have a pro tool, grab a 2X4 (no kidding) cut to size and jam that in.  It may fracture and get splintered at 150 lbs/ft but it will not damage the teeth. No kidding!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 13, 2015, 01:26:58 PM
Cant i just put itt in gear and leave the back tires on the ground?  Then I can torque?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on May 13, 2015, 01:36:13 PM
Put it i the highest gear and parkingbrake on that shall do it
but for safetys sake dont lay under it if you have the front
end on jackstands
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on May 13, 2015, 02:33:21 PM
Cant i just put itt in gear and leave the back tires on the ground?  Then I can torque?

As Heo said, I wouldn't. As mentioned you could instead jack it up (rears) and set your emergency parking brake. If the brake slips as you approach 150 lbs, no harm to you or the car!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 13, 2015, 05:32:56 PM
OK...  IM EXCITED...maybe...

I went into the garage and decided I want TDC and nothing less....  My mistake during the build.....  I will NEVER make that mistake again.

ok  So first things first.....  Since the engine has run now (about 30 minuts this weekend....  see shotty video), the engine turns clockwise and counterclockwise (just about the same resistance either direction)  I guess it is well oiled now!

This is where I HOPE i am right!...  I found the compression stroke again.  As soon as I got the burst of air, I put the piston stop in.  Then I carefully turned the engine over until I touched the piston stop....  Now this is "some degree before TDC.  I went under the car and cleaned the balancer thoroughly.  Then I put a strip of blue painters take on the balancer (On the bottom) and a piece of tape wrapped around the (tortion?) bar.  On the tortion bar, I drew an arrow (my make shift pointer).  On the balancer, and aligned with the arrow on the tortion bar, I drew a line (marking some degree before TDC)....

NOW, since I cannot continue turning the engine clockwise due to the piston stop, I rotated the engine counterclockwise  all the way around until I reached the piston stop again.....  ((I am guessing that this would be some degree ATDC on intake stroke (or charge stroke).  now that I reached the piston stop again, I drew a line on the painters tape, again, aligning with my arrow on the tortion bar.

Now, I went up and took out the piston stop.... and turning the engine clockwise again, I was heading into the comppression stroke.  Once I reached my (Some degree before TDC) line again, I saw that there was about 1.5 inches before my next line.  The exact center of these 2 lines was my TDC.........  OH GOD please tell me I am right.  Now, I turned the engine clockwise a little more (until I was exactly between these 2 lines on the painters tape, and went up to look at what my REAL timing pointer said on the timing tape I put on with my father.    It said 10 degrees BTDC...  So I was 10 degrees off on my real pointer.

OK....  now for a final note.  Since previously I was told that I should be at about 12-14 degrees BDTC to start, last weekend I rotated the engine so that my (now found to be incorrect) timing tape to 13 degrees BTDC and made sure my # 1 spark plug wire was aligned with the rotar.  That technicallly put me 23 degrees off now in total correct????  I am slowlly starting to understand the 60 degrees I was seeing.
I am going to order a new timing tape (assuming you guys tell me I am correct) and make sure I now have TDC marked exact!

Also, since I have the engine at exactly TDC, I decided to tackle the distributor.  Since it hits "this and that, I pullled it up a little until I could move the gears to point at approx cylinder 2 (I will explain why 2 and not 1 in a second).  Once I had it back in and sitting right, I turned the housing a little until I had the rotar point pointing right at a "tit" on the distributor cap.  This "tit" was now where my number #1 plug wire went... and I went around in a counterclockwise rotation putting the rest of the wires on correctly.

Now, I put rotar pointing to the #2 cylinder, because if I pointed it at #1, the cap would not fit back on due to the water neck flange.  Now, once I get the timing tape on, I will be able to advance the distributor freely to get to 30 degrees BTDC at 3000 RPM.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: country63sedan on May 13, 2015, 06:23:07 PM
I would prefer you use a pointer across the tape as opposed to "eyeballing" at an arrow on the sway bar. But yes, you have now found tdc.   ;D  Make sure you get a tape for the correct diameter damper. Then get a video of this bruiser running good without the smoke and steam (tire smoke is ok). Later, Travis
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on May 13, 2015, 11:38:32 PM
If I'm reading this correctly, you are not 23* off in total. If you've determined that the balancer was reading 10* off, advanced, the 13* initial that you previously had set, which was determined to be wrong, you were at 3* initial in reality. You still want that 13* initial, so subtracting the 10* that it was reading advanced, it should have been at 23* BTDC to be "correct" at 13*. When it would have gone to full advance of 30* at 3000 rpms, assuming you're reading this on the damper, it would have actually been 20* (the initial is included in that damper reading when it's running)....still the original mistake of 10* reading to far advanced. For it to be reading 60*, somehow the distributor was still advancing to an actual 50*.

That is if I'm reading what you did correctly ???

Edit: And I asked this before but I can't remember your answer, what damper do you have? Because the ATI dampers are known for being 9* off, which seems to line up with how much yours is off.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 14, 2015, 09:08:30 AM
Hey Doug,

ok Yesterday night, where my exact TDC was, my balancer timing tape read 10 degreed BTDC. 

Last week, as I thought I had the timing tape installed with TDC on TDC, I then rotated the engine to 13 degrees BTDC and adjusted the distributor.  If you take into account that I was already 10 degrees off and then I rotated the engine another 13 degrees, I was at a total of 23 degrees BTDC (when I thought I was at 13 degrees according to the timing tape I installed.

Now that being said, since I am supposed to be at 13 degrees BTDC to start, that still left me 10 degrees off (Because with the old timing tape, when I rotated it to 13 degrees BTDC for the initial fire-up, I was really at 23 degrees BTDC.

Now, when my wife turned the key (at the incorrect 23 degrees BTDC, and it didn't start, I rotated the distributor clockwise (which was putting me firing at even further BTDC).  So when the timing light was showing 60 degrees BTDC, assuming I was 10 degrees off to start (Which that would now really be 50 degrees BTDC), and taking into account the 13 degrees initial I turned it to adjust the distributor for initial fire up (which would then be 37 degrees BTDC with the timing light) and the clockwise turn I did to get it to fire up (which seeing how quickly the degrees change with the timing light when you turn the distributor... would probably have put me at 14 or 13 degrees BTDC)

I guess from here, since now I am 100% sure of TDC and also 100% sure on the cam timing, we can get a better picture of whats going on if it does not start again, or it starts but the timing is way off...

Also, the balancer is a pioneer race balancer ( summitracing)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 14, 2015, 10:22:49 AM
Hey Jay.......

Can you take one more look at the bottom picture?  When we discussed this earlier (a few months ago), I think you said that I should go with the "Black" advance stop bushing as well as the lighter springs.  The way I currently have the distributor set up is letter "E" below.....  Which is a "black stop bushing" in combination with the "Light blue spring" and a "light silver spring".  I just want to double check on this so I can mark it off the list of possible culprits..   ;)  Also, just to double check (and sorry if you are repeating it again), but with this setup, I am still expecting to see the timing stop at about 32 degrees (or there about ) at 3000 RPM's?  I only ask because looking at the chart below, It looks like the stop bushing would cause the timing to stop at about 17 degrees at 2000 RPM?  hahaha  Or as usual am I reading it wrong?   Also, does it look like I should be using the "Red" bushing to get up around 30 degrees advance before it stops?


Im just thinking out loud, but also since I am using the lightest springs, im advancing at really low RPM's, so it would make sense that I had the chase RPM's by turning the distributor clockwise while someone was cranking the engine (60 degrees timing while at idle) just to keep it running?

(I just got off the phone with MSD, and he said that the instructions (graphs below ) are slightly incorrect.... 1st), Anywhere there is a "blue spring listed, it should say "Medium" and not "Light" as the blue springs are slightly heavier that the "light" silver springs, but less heavy than the 2 heaviest Silver springs.

2nd)  The graphs below are for carburetor applications only (not for EFI apparently?)....  just wanted to throw this out there as its more "knowledge" from tech support.  LOL

I explained to him that I want total timing at about 30 to 32 degrees BTDC, and initial (idle) timing about 13 to 14 degrees BTDC.  He said that given this information, I should be using the "Blue" stop bushing, but would not be able to tell me what spring combination.  He stated that I should leave the 2 heavy silver springs (which came on the distributor when I purchased), time the engine at 3000 RPM, and see if I need to swap springs, or if this works.  If not, then try 1 heavy silver and 1 medium blue....  time the engine again at 3000 RPM... and so on and so on until I am getting the roughly 30 degrees total timing I am looking for.  Thoughts on this?  I have learned to be cautious of what Tech support says nowadays.


Thanks again.....  and we are almost there  lol

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/Timing%20curve_zpszgco49ot.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/Timing%20curve_zpszgco49ot.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 14, 2015, 11:46:55 AM
I think you've got that right, Jason.  The advance in the distributor, shown in the MSD charts, does not include your initial advance.  So, if you set your initial advance at 14 degrees BTDC, then when the centrifugal advance in the distributor comes in, you will have an additional 17 degrees, for a total of 31.  I usually end up at 30 or 32 degrees of advance with the SOHC.  The light silver spring and light blue spring together bring all the advance in by about 3200 RPM.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 14, 2015, 12:17:02 PM
Thanks Jay.  I don't know why tech support (this time MSD) is never correct  LOL  I guess he would have been correct if the charts included initial timing  LOL 

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 14, 2015, 12:26:19 PM
Each individual bushing can either reduce or increase travel, thus reducing or delaying max advance.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 14, 2015, 12:40:02 PM
Hey Brent,

Yea I was just reading the instructions....

The black bushing (the one I have installed currently) = 18 degrees

Blue Bushing (the one I took off - its the one that comes installed on the distributor out of the box) = 21 degrees

Silver Bushing = 25 Degrees

Red Bushing = 28 degrees

I guess what was confusing me (as its not stated in the instructions) is what Jay just mentioned....  the graphs above with the spring/ bushing combinations do not take into account initial timing.  I can understand just given the variation by application, but for beginners (like me), a note in the instructions saying so would be helpful.

OK so with my distributor the way its currently set up (1 light silver spring / 1 Medium Blue spring- and the Black stop bushing), in conjunction with my estimate of 14 degrees initial timing (This would be Figure "E" above)...

Centrifugal advance seems to kick in at about 1300 RPM (Slightly above the 1000-1100 RPM Idle), and including my 14 degrees initial timing, the "Black stop bushing" should stop centrifugal advance at about 2000 RPM (Not 3000 RPM as I have been assuming) at 32 degrees total timing.  Since the black stop bushing ends centrifugal advance at 2000 RPM's, total timing should stay at about 32 degrees BTDC up through the RPM range above 2000 RPM's.

I think I have a handle on this now.  I THINK  LOL 8)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 14, 2015, 06:08:53 PM
Oil filter inspection after breakin:

http://youtu.be/aAeUjf1MFhM
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 14, 2015, 06:34:12 PM
Of course I'm not there, but it appears to be ok from the video.  Best way to do it is take a razor blade or knife and cut around the top and bottom circumference of the filter, separating the element from the canister.  The element will then stretch out in one long piece, like an accordion. 

You'll see some pieces of grit, maybe a piece of aluminum or two.  It's hard to not have some aluminum with brand new aluminum heads, a brand new aluminum block, etc. 

The bottom of the filter will tell a little tale as well, the stuff that's laying in the bottom when you pull the element cartridge out. 

I think you're in good shape. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 14, 2015, 06:40:32 PM
Will do. Botton of the canister has more of the fine grit. I will cut the filter and expand it to see.  I will inspect the filter the first 500 miles as well. Purchased 2 more of the moroso filters to do so

Ill take some pictures of the filter element cut out
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 14, 2015, 07:03:18 PM
Ok. Pictures of the filter pulled out and expanded. So weird to see the grit, but you really cant feel it with your fingers

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/8D37AE04-4E0F-40F8-A18D-0669B7ED3B2A_zpsnqxfvcyk.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/8D37AE04-4E0F-40F8-A18D-0669B7ED3B2A_zpsnqxfvcyk.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/C539A8D8-0355-4F78-B1FD-D6E1DAEF5F64_zps5nstqqhw.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/C539A8D8-0355-4F78-B1FD-D6E1DAEF5F64_zps5nstqqhw.jpg.html)
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/FB06193E-F5F6-40D8-A0F1-53B61F6E8960_zpsde3gc182.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/FB06193E-F5F6-40D8-A0F1-53B61F6E8960_zpsde3gc182.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/E3C8EAFA-08EC-4615-AA33-B7A834BE1EC5_zps4yr9nabt.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/E3C8EAFA-08EC-4615-AA33-B7A834BE1EC5_zps4yr9nabt.jpg.html)


Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 14, 2015, 07:59:40 PM
I don't really see anything that looks like bearing material or anything going south, but there's just a lot of trash in there.   Need to do more cleaning on your next one.  :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 14, 2015, 08:09:21 PM
Is any of that copper colored?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 14, 2015, 08:12:28 PM
Yes actually.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 14, 2015, 08:15:55 PM
I'm on a laptop, so it's hard for me to see, but a couple of pictures that were zoomed in kinda looked like copper flakes.  The other stuff just looked like grit, hair, sealant, etc.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 14, 2015, 08:17:09 PM
Its tiny, but it all looks copper colored. Is that bad?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 14, 2015, 08:24:37 PM
You running a bronze dist gear?

It's showing up better on my phone, is there a lot of it?  What brand bearings did you use?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 14, 2015, 08:27:24 PM
Billet steel distributor gear. I think the thrust bearing was copper colored. sealed power main bearings
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 14, 2015, 08:32:48 PM
At first it just looked like a lot of trash, but I started zooming in. 

Anything else bronze?  Bronze thrust plate?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 14, 2015, 08:36:51 PM
Not that I can remember other that the thrust bearing  ( no thrust plate on a cammer)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 14, 2015, 08:39:15 PM
Thrust plate between stub cam and timing set ?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 14, 2015, 08:41:40 PM
Doesnt use it. Uses a roller bearing in the timing cover with a cover
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 14, 2015, 08:44:24 PM
I'll let the others chime in and help brainstorm.

Did you have good crank thrust clearance?  Did you happen to check and see if you had enough input shaft to crank clearance? 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 14, 2015, 08:45:50 PM
Yea. Thrust clearance was good. Front to back crank movement was to spec
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 14, 2015, 08:50:20 PM
Did the trans slide in or did you have to pull it the last bit with the bolts?

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on May 14, 2015, 08:54:21 PM
Copper colored is typically not good. Fist thing that comes to mind is the thrust bearing. There's definitely more trash in there than what I would like to see, and have seen on my own engines. I wouldn't panic yet though, it may just be from inadequate cleaning like Brent said. I would definitely cut another filter open though, and MUCH sooner than 500 miles. More like after another 20-30 minutes of run time. If you see that much trash again, then I'd say you have an issue. If it's clean then, you may be in the clear.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 14, 2015, 09:00:06 PM
You usually don't have thrust bearing issues unless you have zero clearance or the trans is putting pressure on the crank. 

But, I would agree that it doesn't look good, especially if all the debris is copper colored.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 14, 2015, 09:00:27 PM
Trans slid in perfect. Ill cut the next filter open again. Going to change the oil too
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 14, 2015, 09:09:49 PM
Can you pull the valve covers easily?  Bearing issues will also show up by depositing debris in the tops of the heads.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 14, 2015, 09:21:00 PM
Not really.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 14, 2015, 09:44:34 PM
I think I know where it came from!  The stub cam has copper-esk journals that ride in the cam tunnel. When I installed it, the first lobe ( which slides in 1st was a little tight, eventually with the lube it slid in and the second one ( front lobe on stub cam) slid in normally. I am guessing this is where it came from. Worries me less than having main bearing problems, but hopefully it will clear up on the second run/ oil change.

It hit me all of a sudden. Pretty sure this is it!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 15, 2015, 06:54:32 AM
Copper on a billet core camshaft or stub cam is from the heat treating process.   Whether it's a stub or a billet camshaft, there is nothing that's going to touch that part of the shaft.  The journals themselves will ride in the cam bearings and the journal will be the part that's a little snug when going in the cam bearing. 

My guess is that you have either had a piece of trash go through the bearings and it has scored one down to the copper, or you have a thrust bearing that's going away. 

What was your thrust bearing clearance and did you set the thrust bearings?  What were your main and rod bearing clearances? 

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on May 15, 2015, 07:14:06 AM
You usually don't have thrust bearing issues unless you have zero clearance or the trans is putting pressure on the crank. 

But, I would agree that it doesn't look good, especially if all the debris is copper colored.

Brent, I agree you don't usually have problems, especially this early, but other than bearings, it's the only copper colored pieces I could see making that stuff. Unless there are bronze bushings someplace in the engine. I'm not familiar with Cammers enough though.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 15, 2015, 08:16:10 AM
Its all copper colored dust suspension in oil. No big pieces of metal anywhere.

When I measured the mains, they were all toward the larger side of therange (0.003 if i remember correctly.

I could definately see maybe my block cleaning before assembly was not perfect. I am going to change the oil with 8 quarts more break in oil, fill up the new filter, 30 min run again and ill check the oil and filter again
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 15, 2015, 10:16:29 AM
For future reference, when you build your next one, aluminum blocks expand in the mains when they get hot.  Your .003" cold clearance will end up at almost .004" when hot.  You may notice that when your oil temp is up and you may need to run some thicker oil, like a 20W-50 or so. 

So what was your crank thrust clearance?  The fine copper could be from the thrust bearing essentially being milled away.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 15, 2015, 10:17:46 AM
Cant remember off hand
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 15, 2015, 10:53:45 AM
OK lets return to the point. I am new to engine building  LOL  I just looked up what thrust clearance to be sure I wasn't making comments about something and was confusing it for something else...... and as usual, it turns out I was.

When I Installed the crankshaft, I torqued all of the main caps except for the middle one (Where the thrust bearing is).  I then put the dial indicator on the snout of the crank and as directed, moved the crankshaft back and forth with a large flat tip screwdriver.  I think I was measuring run out? (Not thrust clearance).  When I went back and forth with the crank, I was again within spec (I checked this through the forum.... its probably back on one of these pages).  At this point I torqued down the center main cap. 

If I am not mistaken, measuring thrust bearing clearance requires you to measure the space between the crankshaft weight and the thrust bearing surface?  This I did not do it seems.  But if I did not have the correct run out when pushing the crankshaft forward and backwards, this would have meant my thrust bearing clearance was off no?  So since it was in spec, the clearance should be ok?

Again I want to run over this again (Because my pictures taken with an iPhone are not that great).....  There are no large pieces of metal in the oil of filter.  There are pieces about half the size of glitter, and there is even finer powder that stays suspended in the oil.

Almost all of the half size glitter "stuff" is gold in color....  I have been saying copper, but its more gold....  (hard to tell exactly as its soooo tiny).

Also I have 2 oil drain plugs on my pan and both are magnetic.  they had only a little tiny amount of dark powder (maybe the size of 1/4 of a pencil eraser) stuck to it...... again no half glitter size pieces or pieces of metal of any type/size.  It basically looked like a tiny amount of metallic powder.

I also see on the oil filter element (once I cut it out) that there was the red cam lube I used on the stub cam as well as some of the dark ARP torque lube... again not a lot.

Engine was primed when I first assembled it and sat for a few months before I tried to start it.....  Possibly not as lubricated at first start up as it should have been?  Also, this would make sense as when I was trying to find TDC with the breaker bar on the crank bolt, it was difficult to turn (but not impossible)......  This last time when I went to find TDC, it cranked smoothly clockwise and counterclockwise with not even half the effort it originally took.  I am guessing that since the engine was running for 30 min or so, its now completely lubed up!

I guess I want to make sure my description and bad pictures are not swaying anyone.  On the filter element, if you don't stick your face down against it, you cant see anything (that's how small the powder is).

I don't want to sound like someone making excuses, but I know my pictures suck (and those were the best of what I was able to take!)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 15, 2015, 11:01:12 AM
Well, a magnet won't pickup bronze or aluminum of course....it's just going to pick up ring dust and any other ferrous material.

Crankshaft thrust clearance is crankshaft endplay.  It's how much axial movement you have with the caps torqued.  You put a dial indicator on the nose or the flange and wiggle it back and forth to see what clearance you have.  I like to see at least .004-.005" there and some of the combinations end up at .007-.008.

Measuring run-out on something tells you how out-of-round it is.  For instance if you were to put the crank in a set of V-blocks, put a dial indicator on a journal, and turn the crank, the dial indicator would tell you if it's out-of-round, bent, etc. 

It's fairly common to have crank/bearing/block combinations where you have no thrust clearance at all and the bearings have to be massaged. 

The bottom line is that you should not have any copper showing in the filter.   There's only so many places it can come from and if it's making metal during just a 10-15 break-in session, it could get worse during harder operation. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 15, 2015, 11:11:44 AM
Understood. Page 9 of this forum.  End play on the crankshaft came in at 0.005 (Of course I used the wrong terminology at the time)

I guess my only option at this time is to run it in the garage another time or 2 and see if this is something that goes away or gets worse).  If it doesn't go away after another 2 separate 30 minutes break in runs (new oil and new filter each time), I am guessing the whole thing is coming back out and getting new bearings.

Also, I was thinking, the valve guides are bronze no?  Is there anyway (just given the "grit size of these particles) that it could have been dust from a dry start from the valve guides?  2 valves per cylinder, 8 cylinders  .... 16 bronze valve guides would be a good source of this color dust.

Also I was looking up bearing failure, and they seem to appear as "chips".  There were no chips at all.  I think out of all the things mentioned so far, Brents suggestion on the thrust bearing makes the most sense....  powdery since its "slowly milling the sides of the thrust bearing surface.....

I am guessing if this is correct, changing out the oil 2 or 3 more times will solve the issue........  If its actually a main bearing issue, it will get worse over the next 2 oil changes/inspections.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 15, 2015, 12:16:15 PM
Valve guides are bronze, but whoever assembled your heads should have put assembly lube on the valves....if not, they need to be beaten about the head and neck.

.005" crank end-play isn't bad.  Hard to imagine that you're getting wear from that unless you have a clutch/trans/bell issue and all the end-play is being taken up because the crank is pushed forward. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 15, 2015, 12:42:54 PM
Trans slid in smooth once I got it all aligned.  Trans and bell housing were flush and did NOT use the bolts to pull them together.

2 interesting things I found while researching online.

1st)  TONS of people talk about gold dust in their oil filter after break in, but NO ONE post any pictures. 

2nd)  when people show spun bearings, they get pieces of silver chips before they start to get the inner copper color..  and its not usually dust.

I will feel a ton better if I flush this engine, add new break in oil and filter.... and the second inspection is clean as a whistle!  LOL

If not, what the hell.....  what's a little more experience with Mic-ing the journals and installing new main bearings  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 15, 2015, 12:50:20 PM
I hope everything turns out ok for you man.

One last question....

Is your throw out bearing touching the pressure plate at rest?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 15, 2015, 12:54:54 PM
No, I checked in this one.  After the clutch is released, the throw out bearing completely releases the tension on the Clutch fingers.  Obviously, the bearing wont retract where there would be dead space between the fingers and the throw out bearing surface, but I am positive that there is no pressure at all on the clutch fingers after the clutch pedal is released   :-\
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 15, 2015, 02:28:18 PM
Hey Guys... more food for thought.....  spent the last hour or so reading through other forum posts about people with these same issues.  One in particular was interesting and got me thinking.  This person had the same thing.... gold dust.   Did not end up being a bearing, was not valve guides, and not the distributor gear.....

Before I say what it was, I want to also add that his engine ran beautifully.  No noises to speak of......

After months of guessing and taking the engine apart 1 item at a time and checking, he pulled the whole motor.  Lo-and behold it was the windage tray!  Such a slight interference that it didn't make a sound, but the windage tray (exactly like the one I have!) is gold colored....  I would go as far as to say that its the exact same color as the dust in the oil.....

the coloring comes from the finish they put on it Zinc plating?  Like Grade 8 hardware!!!  I am still hopeful!!!!  Just like him, there was no interference when he had the engine assembled.... and it was probably running the engine that caused the metal in the tray to expand a tiny bit and "rub" on the crank weights....  Possibly.

Hope is still alive!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: drdano on May 15, 2015, 03:07:31 PM
The transmission goes into and out of gears easily inside the car when you use the clutch with the engine running?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 15, 2015, 03:39:20 PM
I have not put the car in gear yet while its running.  As you can see from that crappy video of the car running, I was running around like a chicken trying to read the handheld, keep a fan on the radiator, and use the timing light  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 15, 2015, 10:01:28 PM
Ok jegs shipment came in. I was able to install the Saleen thermostat housing on the bottom radiator housing and connect the degas tank to the bottom fitting. Unfortunately, the power steering belt touched the hose, so for now, i will leave the pump hooked up with no belt so the power steering system is still closed and sealed

I have the front of the car up on jackstands and will fill the coolant tomorrow. Oil change as well if I can find break in oil anywhere local

Still waiting on the new timing tape, but i have the 2 aircraft toggle switches to hook MSD ignition box and FAST computer directly to independent 12 V source
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 16, 2015, 06:54:04 AM
drdano, didn't you lose a thrust bearing a few years ago?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 16, 2015, 07:20:16 AM
Have you tried running jumper wires off the battery to see if the power source was your problem?

I'd hate to see the car wired up with toggle switches to things that should work automatcally.  Maybe you could leave it the way it is and wire in a solenoid or two to power those extra circuits.

Regardless, I'd likely run jumper wires first to see if it changes anything before I cut into the wiring any more
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 16, 2015, 09:27:05 AM
3 different techs and another person using the fast dual qaud said the 12 v ign source cannot be shared with anything. I got cool looking flip cover toggles, so im ok with them.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 16, 2015, 11:03:46 AM
I am not arguing with you that you have to have a clean signal, most every EFI system uses a dedicated feed, but it would be cleaner to use the existing feed to activate a solenoid fed directly from the battery.  That would have the same effect and would be a much more professional way to do it.

It also would be smart to try it first before you modify the wiring so you don't waste your time if that isn't your issue.

One other point, I understand you are getting a ton of info from all of us and the techs, and often it doesn't agree completely, but realize the guys responding on this forum likely have more and broader experience than the techs.  The techs you are talking to likely aren't engineers or experienced builders, there is no way they could afford to pay someone like that to answer the phone or email :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 16, 2015, 01:17:37 PM
Understood. Thank you. Ill hold off on the toggles for now. Want to see if the timing being exact was my issue. To be completely honest, i wanted to toggles just for the look. Lol. But again, going to hold off for now

Got break in oil and gallons of coolant

Hopefully will try starting up again Monday night
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 16, 2015, 09:57:05 PM
Ok. Oil changed!  Started adding coolant and could only get about 1 gallon in.  After doing some reading, i see that there is a process to filling with coolant. Something about needing vacuum to pull coolant in once the thermostat opens

Ill add until full once the car is running and warm. Last thing before I start her up again is the timing tape which arrives Monday.

I also kept the first oil filter material in a sealed bag so I can compare to the next filter to ensure issues are clearing up oil wise
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 16, 2015, 11:14:01 PM
Hey guys. I was just watching Gas Monkey garage. They were doing the break in process on a ford 289 v8, and when they pulled the oil filter and drained the oil, they said they had bearing issues. They knew because the oil looked similar to metallic paint. When he pushed his finger around in it, you could see the trail

When I drained my oil, therewas no shimmer like metalic paint. Just those darn mini specs of gold. Interesting that if the assumption was that gold spec stuff was deep bearing material, that I wouldnt see the shimmer of the outer bearing material ( metalic paint looking stuff) in the oil.  Oh gosh guys.... Keep your fingers crossed....

Also, now that I ran the engine at about 2000 RPM for 30 minutes, did I really need to fill it back up with more break in oil? Or is conventional oil ( until the rings seat) fine?  When all is said and done, I was hoping to run a synthetic like royal purple

?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on May 16, 2015, 11:41:41 PM
Jason -

Looking forward to the next start-up.  As far as synthetic oil, I have always run conventional oil during the first few thousand miles on a new engine.  The rings tend to seat better because conventional oil is not quite as slippery as full synthetic.  Now some modern oem cars run synthetic from the factory, but everything is designed for it.  Not so with our old-style FE's.

Just my opinion, but I've been pretty successful over the years with this approach.  Also, you should drive it like you stole it for the first several hundred miles.  Lots of throttle position and speed changes, especially fully closing the throttle at highway speeds to pull vacuum on those rings.

Again, just one man's opinion.  I did work for ole' Henry's outfit once though!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on May 17, 2015, 06:46:56 AM
2X to what Bill stated. If it were mine....I'd pop the leading oil filter after the next run or two (no need to do both) and, after carefully cutting it apart as Brett noted, spread out the media again and check it. You really don't want to score up the crank's thrust surfaces here IF the thrust bearing is going away.   
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: drdano on May 17, 2015, 10:25:27 AM
drdano, didn't you lose a thrust bearing a few years ago?

Yes, that was me.   :-[  http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=581.0

I've got my fingers crossed that isn't the issue here.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 17, 2015, 08:31:37 PM
Hey Guys,

Tomorrow the timing tape arrives.  This is going to sound kinda of weird, but can someone upload a picture (drawing) of what the rotor pointer and the cap point alignment in the distributor should look like at the initial timing of 13 Degrees BTDC?  I want to make sure after I put the timing tape on tomorrow, that I pull the distributor up and readjust so that the rotor point is where it should be. 

If its ok to just have the rotor pointer exactly aligned with the point on the cap leading to spark plug wire #1, that would be easier, but many of you have stated that with the MSD ignition box/ Distributor combination I have, that the spark jumps a little before the rotor arrives to the cap point.

Also, I didnt feel comfortable firing the engine only being able to put 1 gallon of 50/50 coolant in the car.  It wont take any more because it is unable to displace the air in the block....  online, you usuallly fill a Saleen up by running the engine, waiting for it to get hot, and then adding coolant...

In order to get around this, In addition to the 1 gallon I poured in the degas tank, I took the upper radiator hose off the water neck, and was able to pour 1 more gallon down into the block.  Now at least I know there is 1 gallon in the radiator, and 1 gallon in the block......  when the car is running, and heats up, I can add more if it needs it.

Thanks guys
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on May 17, 2015, 09:04:46 PM
Take the highest heaterhose lose and let the air escape through there
about the rotor arm...just  see that it points att nr one when engine is
att zero then set the timing
imposible to tell how it exactly going to point

You can set the timing roughly by instal a plug in no 1
sparkplugwire with the engine on 13 degrees and the ignition on
rotate the distributor against direction of rotation till you get a spark
(you can have to fiddle back and fort a litle)there is your timing
so it will start so you can set it with the stroboscope
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 18, 2015, 08:45:55 AM
Thanks Heo

I was working the odd timing results I had been getting and this is where I am at

Where TDC truely is, was showing 20 degrees ATDC on the actual balancer ( before I added the timing tape). This means the first time I ran the engine and was seeing 30 degrees BTDC at idle, I was really at 10 degrees BTDC.  Wasnt running great the first time but was running

After I added the first timing tape, car ran but idle timing showed 60 degrees BTDC. When I thought I found TDC and added the tape, i thought TDC was where the balancer showed 9 degrees ATDC. i will keep trying to figure out how it was running well at what looked like 60 but was really some less degree since I was way off with true TDC

Either way, sure of true TDC now and will mark it with the timing tape as soon as I get it today
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 18, 2015, 11:48:10 AM
I forgot which distributor you are running, if equipped, you are checking timing with the vacuum advance unplugged?

Also, were you checking at a low enough rpm that the mechanical advance isn't coming in?

The ECM may initially fast idle the car, so if you can keep it running long enough to get to temp, may want to wait to check the timing until it warms up and can drop the idle
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 18, 2015, 01:52:40 PM
Hey Ross

Running a MSD probillet distriboutor. no vacuum advance but mechanical advance. When the ECU gotthecar running last week, it was at like 2000 RPM. Stayed there a while, but then started coming down. You are prob right, i think advance kicks in at 1100 rpm or so. Bythe time engine came down, it was overheating and i couldnt check with timing light.  Had to shut it off

Hopefully this time, it will stay cool and i can time it after it kicks down. And also get video of the live data screens
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 18, 2015, 02:10:14 PM
OK, just tried starting it again.  This time I brought in my cheat sheet from FAST in what to look for while cranking and just before.

CTS and ATS were fine (at about ambient temperature)

RPM's at cranking were fine (above 200)


then we get to VBatt....  this is the switched ignition 12V source.  It says that it should stay above 10 Volts while cranking.

right before cranking, I was showing 11.6 volts.  As soon as I started cranking, It went down to 9 Volts, then 8 volts....  I stapped cranking (not sure how low it would have gone)....

So there is definitely a problem.  I am going to go ahead and install the toggle switches to get a solid 12 V source off of the battery directly.  I may run it temporarily just outside the car until I get everything working and running, and then decided where in the interior I want to mount them.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on May 18, 2015, 02:21:52 PM
what voltage is the battery when not cranking and while cranking?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 18, 2015, 02:45:49 PM
Run them temporarily and see, but as Heo is eluding to, it could just be a bit too much for the battery until the engine gets broken in. (or hopefully something isn't binding causing the crap in the oil and the drag)

Do you have a real battery charger, one that has some guts?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 18, 2015, 03:02:30 PM
I had the battery on the battery Tender today (made for these Gel red top batteries)...

With the key in the acc position, the handheld said the voltage read 11.6 Volts

As soon as I started cranking it started to drop.  Dropped to 10 Volts for 1 second, then to 9.2? Volts for a second, and finally When I saw 8 volts, I stopped.  It fell that fast in literally 3 seconds (as I am not going to burn up my 2nd starter again!.


I just got back out of the garage.  I finished wiring the toggle switches directly to the battery.  I didn't even want to use the same post for the computer and the MSD box, so one is mounted to a stud on the right side of the terminal (+) and there is a second stud (same + terminal) but on the opposite side which is where I put the other.

I am going to let the car charge for a few hours and try cranking again and see what happens to the Volts during cranking again.

Also as a side note, I just noticed that the guy who owned the car before me had an aftermarket amplifier for the stereo installed in the trunk.  The power cable runs to the (+) side of the battery too.  since I am sure that thing sucks up power, I disconnected it from the battery.
"
I do not have a full size battery charger as I was told that they don't work well with these new "Gel" Optima red top batteries. 

I will wait a few hours and report back!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on May 18, 2015, 03:15:04 PM
I do not have a full size battery charger as I was told that they don't work well with these new "Gel" Optima red top batteries. 
Since I use Optimas I looked for something that would work with them and wanted a real charger/starter/minder.
Get this, it's worth the money.
Also Optimas are not gel batteries, they are AGM.
http://www.batterychargers.com/xc103w/

http://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/experience/power-source/what-difference-between-agm-and-gel-batteries/
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 18, 2015, 03:19:23 PM
Dude...you got a dead battery...

Hook a good pair of jumper cables to it, let the jumper car idle for a bit and start it, I bet the power comes right up with your current wiring.  That battery tender is good for its intended use, but it's never going to help start a car.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 18, 2015, 03:20:46 PM
Also, keep in mind, if it does start, it is likely not your new wiring. Your battery is screaming for help, jump the poor thing.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on May 18, 2015, 03:28:52 PM
yes to low voltage in the bat. it shall read 12.6 for a full battery
test it direct on the battery do you have a good multimeter
if not its time to get one. If its lower than that on the battery
it needs help .
If the bat is full there is something wrong with your conections
somewere. Its often bad or not enough ground wire
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 18, 2015, 04:13:06 PM
unfortunately no jumper cables.  Unfortunately all I have is the battery tender.  Its supposed to have a full charge mode (red light on) and then once its fully charged, then the green light comes on and it keeps the battery at a full charge.  Its been like 2 hours and the battery tender is still on red light.

Since I have the Computer directly wired to the battery now (and not to the passenger side kick panel fuse box jumped off of the MSD box and the lock out solenoid), I turned the key on, Flipped the toggle switch for the computer, and now the handheld reads 11.9...... and the battery is still charging.

What I am looking for is when the battery is charged and I crank the engine over, as per FAST tech support (Yeah I know), the handheld should never dip below 10 Volts.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 18, 2015, 04:43:55 PM
You are doing well, just remember, new motor, rings have a lot of friction, you have a big electrical requirement for the pump, ignition, EFI, basically it takes more sometimes than just being charged.

If this continues to fight you, don't try to troubleshoot until you rule out that it just isn't an issue with not enough battery, find some cables or borrow a big battery charger.  They work fine for what you need it for, you aren't trying to repair an AGM, you are just trying to give all the circuits some amperage.

A good of jumpers off a decent vehicle would be great too. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 18, 2015, 06:07:04 PM
Thanks Ross,  ill pick up a pair of jumper cables this week and give it a go
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 18, 2015, 08:31:26 PM
Hey Ross,
I wanted to start with these.  These are the EFI ecu's screens with power on but car not running. Want to get a charger before I crank again, but i wanted to run these past you all and the FAST tech to make sure everything is ok setting wise for the start. Not sure if these are useful, but i thought it a good idea to start here. LOL

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/2E5678DC-9307-40B1-AFA1-3D2A0B55C06D_zpsrtamabt6.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/2E5678DC-9307-40B1-AFA1-3D2A0B55C06D_zpsrtamabt6.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/D324595F-5360-4AAA-9FFB-4AC05808DADD_zps06txodwc.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/D324595F-5360-4AAA-9FFB-4AC05808DADD_zps06txodwc.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/C5E3E8B0-FFD2-4822-A60E-E4CE27DF2D57_zpskhhpjd60.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/C5E3E8B0-FFD2-4822-A60E-E4CE27DF2D57_zpskhhpjd60.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/46A19D51-F6A1-4740-808C-1CEF53FD6F5E_zpsojivrlrs.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/46A19D51-F6A1-4740-808C-1CEF53FD6F5E_zpsojivrlrs.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on May 18, 2015, 10:35:10 PM
yes to low voltage in the bat. it shall read 12.6 for a full battery


Actually a "full" battery should read 13.2 volts, or 2.2 volts per cell. At a minimum it should be reading over 12 or around 12.5. Anything under 12 and the battery is not up to par and the voltage will drop off significantly during cranking. If you already had a maintainer on it and it was only in the 11s, then it sounds like the battery is weak and can't pull the load.   

Even with bad connections you will typically get a full voltage reading of whatever the battery reads, anywhere in the circuit. But when a load is applied, the voltage will drop off big time. That's why a test light or multi-meter are not always good indicators of whether you have a good connection. They only take a miniscule amount of current to indicate the voltage, but once the load is applied, that voltage disappears. It's referred to as ghost voltage.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on May 18, 2015, 10:47:35 PM
Like I said. never did like those "Red Tops". Always coming up short.
Get one those Canadian Tire Eliminators.
In the ad during the winter, they smashed one in half and it still worked. :o
Tested for life in Canada. ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 19, 2015, 06:49:07 AM
Hi Doug,

It actually read over 12 volts on the screen, but as soon as I turned the key to the acc position, it dropped to the 11.9 you see on the handheld.  When I turned the key back off, it went back into a little over 12 volts again.  I am only able to see that now because I wired the EFI computer 12 V switched power straight to the battery via toggle switch.  The old way, when I turned the key off, the EFI computer went blank with a "communication error"

Just went into the garage this morning and turned on the computer (I did not turn the Key on).  Battery reads 12.6 Volts
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 19, 2015, 07:51:10 AM
OK, I will rn down some of these things, good stuff

The bad

BAT = 11.9, this may be a problem.  I wonder if you have a dead cell.  Any chance you could grab a battery out of another vehicle and just read this value?  More and more I don't like the battery, but hate to spend your money until we can see something better on there.  Maybe jump it and see what BAT reads.  If it comes up, your battery may be bad or the charger isn't doing its thing.

ON EDIT - I understand that you haven't had that value there yet and before it said comm error.  If that is the case, it's worth trying because the line voltage will climb like crazy with the alternator.  Again though, if it doesn't fire, or won't crank decently, get some jumper cables on it

All the good..

INJ DC% = 0 good, it is how much the injector is being used compared to what it can, Not running should be zero

LOAD% = 94, good, it compares manifold to ambient pressure (vacuum) and not running should be close to 100

MAP = 101, good, around 102 means standard day for atmospheric pressure, it would change when running, lower with vacuum

AF 15.9 = fine but meaningless, I assume 16.0 is the limit of the O2 sensor, so it is telling you way too lean, and it is, because it isn't running

ATS 90 - Good, looks like air temp in FL was around 90, checks with the water temp

CTS 87 - Coolant temp, good, see above, be advised that it cannot self learn until this is above 140

TP% - Good, resting idle should be zero for throttle position

AF - Current a/f - longer the bar, the more lean, its maxed, as expected not running

TAF - Target AF - As you can see, shorter bar, this is what the computer is shooting for, wants it richer.  That is good

For the 2 circles, SE and AL, watch those any time you have the screen up

SE = system error, if a check mark appears, its like a check engine light, go to the manual

AL = Adaptive learning, once it reaches temp, it should light up and then it is going to try do its thing

The "maybe" ... worth asking the tech

IAC - Reads 90, that is about 1/2 open.  An IAC allows more air in to raise idle as the engine adds more fuel.  Seems odd it would be so high.  Worth asking, but could be last running position too.

Overall I see no big issues other than the battery

Can you go into the advanced menu and tell me what Idle A/F, Cruise A/f and WO A/F is set at?




Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 19, 2015, 08:08:28 AM
Hi Ross,

As per the advanced menu:

Idle A/F = 13.5

Cruise A/F = 14.0

WO A/F = 12.8

Also, Have a call into FAST about the IAC reading.  I have the instruction manual here and it says that the range for the IAC reading is between 5 and 180... and Generally it should read about 20 at idle (out of gear).  So even if this was a reading from when I had the car running, it would still be way off.  I will let you know what he says as soon as he calls me back.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 19, 2015, 09:03:03 AM
OK my usual guy over (William) has not called back yet, but I spoke to another just to see what he would say.

He said that the computer sometimes hikes the IAC up so it will start easily and that you should only be concerned with the IAC value once its idling.

I am not sure if this makes sense or not since I cannot got the engine running  LOL  I will post again if William over at FAST calls me back
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 19, 2015, 09:51:16 AM
OK, Wanted to see how adding the toggle switches affected the BattV.  So while cranking, it never goes below 10.3 Volts (Perfect- just like the instructions say).  As soon as I stop cranking, it pops back up to a little above 12 Volts.  Unfortunately it still does not fire up.  It has spark, because it sputters every time, but does not fire.

William over at FAST just called back and he said that the IAC is set at 90 (Half way point) just to get it started, and should drop into the low 20's as soon as its idling.

He said we may need to further lower the fuel pressure (on the regulator only, not the computer-which always needs to stay reading 43 PSI).

He wants me to set the timing so that at 20 degrees BTDC, the rotar is dead center on the # 1 point on the cap.

He also asked about my spring combination in the MSD pro billet distributor.  He said there is also a possibility since I am using 1 light silver spring and 1 medium blue spring that its starting to advance before it has a chance to fire up....  Interesting thought since the first time I got it running was by basically turning the distributor clockwise quickly as someone was cranking it over. 

He said we can think about changing the springs after we try the timing and fuel pressure.

Just went into the Garage and turned the engine over to TDC 1 time (which was not the compression stroke because the distributor was not even close to the #1 plug wire) and then slowly around again to 20 degrees BTDC.  As soon as the timing pointer was right on the line of 20 degrees BTDC, I (having had the cap already off) played with the distributor housing until the rotor was dead center of the point in the cap leading to the #1 wire (this took a bit of on-and-off of the cap to get it exact).

I have not tried turning it over yet, but given the position of the cap behind the timing cover, I am not able to advance it any further past the 20 degrees it set at now.  I have room to dial back if necessary.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 19, 2015, 11:53:25 AM
OK with the timing set at 20 BTDC, I tried turning the car over....  same sputtering.  This time (and the directions say that it should never be necessary, I tapped the throttle....  and it fired up...

Now, It would not stay running unless I kept my foot on the throttle and it did not sound smooth at all ( not like the last time I had it running by itself for 30 minutes or so)

in addition, white smoke that smelled like gas and burns your eyes filled the garage.

Not sure where to go from here.  Waiting for another call back from William at FAST.  Maybe in order to get this thing to fire up I need to manually adjust the throttle blades to open a bit more at cranking?

The running rough part was disheartening.  Almost sounded like a miss, but I double checked firing order on the cap, and made sure all the plug wires were connected down the tubes.....

This honestly has lost its fun factor.  I am out of my league on this stupid EFI system (and out like $3000.00)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on May 19, 2015, 11:58:55 AM
yes to low voltage in the bat. it shall read 12.6 for a full battery

Well actualy the voltage when full depends on the temperature and you can write
a couple of pages about voltage versus temp variations But min 12.6 volt around roomtemperature.
When its charged its like you say 13.2 but fall quickly down to 12.6 if it falls more battery is bad

and the charger must have atleast 13.5 volt output to bee able to fully charge a battery
and not over 14.5 volt. To not overcharge the battery and boil out the electrolyte

Actually a "full" battery should read 13.2 volts, or 2.2 volts per cell. At a minimum it should be reading over 12 or around 12.5. Anything under 12 and the battery is not up to par and the voltage will drop off significantly during cranking. If you already had a maintainer on it and it was only in the 11s, then it sounds like the battery is weak and can't pull the load.   

Even with bad connections you will typically get a full voltage reading of whatever the battery reads, anywhere in the circuit. But when a load is applied, the voltage will drop off big time. That's why a test light or multi-meter are not always good indicators of whether you have a good connection. They only take a miniscule amount of current to indicate the voltage, but once the load is applied, that voltage disappears. It's referred to as ghost voltage.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 19, 2015, 01:55:17 PM
Followed FAST techs advice , and the car started right up, but then was idling at like 2500 RPM.  started coming back down on its own, but then went back up to 2500 RPM and stayed there.  Obviously at that RPM started to overheat, so I turned the key off......  but the engine kept running.  Ended up pulling the coil wire to get it to shut off.

Honestly guys, Its not fun anymore.  Im tired of stabbing at this thing after all that I have done to get to this point.  I know my luck and I know since I don't know....  I will end up breaking something.

We have decided to just sell the car as is on ebay and let someone who knows EFI enjoy it.  Its taking up my days (between work), most nights and all of my weekends.  I think I just want to sell it and buy something nice I can enjoy right away.

The car ran last week.....  ran beautifully.  Better to sell while its still a magnificent car..

Thanks  :0)  and sorry you couldn't see it in action.  No one is more disappointed than me, believe me.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on May 19, 2015, 02:20:54 PM
Take a break from the car for a couple of weeks
put on a couple of carbs so you can run it and fix
the efi in the winter dont give up when your so close
i think you will regret it if you sell it

Not an easy beginners projekt to build an fuelinjected SOCH
And you have come this close . Many had given up much
earlier Take a break smell the roses take a couple of beers
do something completly different and you will see it feels better
to work on it again
A couple of Holleys an a few hours and you have it running
and can enjoy it this summer
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 19, 2015, 03:08:09 PM
Wish I could. No $$ left to spend another $600 or so on carbs. Better that someone who knows to take over
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: fastback 427 on May 19, 2015, 04:21:33 PM
I would take heo's advice, take some time off. I think most of us have been in your shoes or close. No money, no time, problem after problem, etc. When I need to blow some steam I head out to the country with my high power rifle, an old clothes washer, and 300$ in tannerite. The explosion is quite satisfying! Even therapeutic  ;D  I really do hope you stick with it, even though it's a huge pain in the a$$.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 19, 2015, 05:07:47 PM
Just out of curiousity, how was it that the engine was still running when I shut the key off?  Running strong at 3000 RPM?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 19, 2015, 05:13:01 PM
Never mind... Just forgot that I have the MSD box on toggle.... Not going to matter is key is shut off. WOW
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 19, 2015, 05:39:54 PM
Never mind... Just forgot that I have the MSD box on toggle.... Not going to matter is key is shut off. WOW

LOL

Don't give up yet, we just started talking the lingo, you'll get it. Look in those instructions, somewhere it says for some big inch motors you need to open the throttle blades, just like your hunch says.

However, the one thing you arent remembering is all those parameters a couple posts above, are there to HELP.  When it is running, look at them, they tell a tale.  I'll teach you and you'll discover some, but don't bail when it gets tough
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 19, 2015, 05:46:52 PM
Honestly I was going to take photos of each screen but the white gas smelling smoke was burning the crap out of my eyes.... And when it was idling at 3000 RPM, i ran to the front of the car to check timing ( which i couldnt see because my eyes were tearing.... And then the upper radiator hose blew and scalded mewith coolant taht the ECU said was 255 degrees

Not fun guys. Not fun. LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on May 19, 2015, 05:54:13 PM
Thats what im talking about when your to much in to something your
not thinking clear. Take time of do something completly different
clear the head
and sudenly out of the blue....  wooow thats the problem why
didnt i think of that. Like the toggle switch now

Muphys law is with us all from time to time. I dont know if you
read my story about me reparing the lawnmower and the hedgehog
attack
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 19, 2015, 06:13:30 PM
Hahaha. No but its sounds hilarious by title alone.

Any guesses why at 20 degrees BTDC, it hung at 2500 to 3000 RPM?  And from the burning eyes, way too much gas still
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 19, 2015, 06:36:24 PM
Side thought.... I was thinking about fuel.... And how I think I have too much because my eyes burn from it.... Then it brings me to the 02 sensor... Which tells the ecu if its running lean or rich..... Then I start thinking about the headers I had made and how the are not welded units, but rather 4 individual tubes that are pulled into the collector with bolts and nuts (2 locations)..... And then it made me think, what if these were not air tight?  Wouldnt that tell the 02 sensor its leaner than it really is?  So looking under the car, it seems that there is what looks like soot that came out around this band clamp ( maybe wrong term) juncture

Can someone take a look a few pages back at the headers?  Are these going to be air tight?

If they arent, maybe the computer is being told by the o2 sensor that its lean ( due to exhaust leaks) and adding more fuel?  Hense high RPM at idle and unburnt atomized gas burning my eyes?

Thoughts?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on May 19, 2015, 06:45:50 PM
To make a long story short.I started early in the morning
to mow the lawn got flat tires tossed belts got wrong belts
several times.I got attacked by a Hedgehog when i was laying
under the mower. Finaly late in the afternoon  when i got
it running the rod desided to escape from the crankcase  ;D ;D

What is controling fast idle with cold engine?Is it adjustabel?
what happens if you adjust down the trottle blades ?
any airleaks?
Regular produktion EFIs have some kind of airvalve that opens
when you coldstart the engine and some kind of fuel enrichment
just like the choke and fast idle on a carb
im only guessing now but your EFI should have something similar
and with the over rich fuel ratio and high idle maby thats the problem
The timing itself should not give you to high idle



Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on May 19, 2015, 06:53:09 PM
Its possibly on the headers and the O2 sensor and rich fuelratio
But that should not give you the high rpm.Im only guessing again
Other on this forum maby knows better
Regular produktion EFIs dont like leaky exhaustsystems
We have annual inspection on cars in Sweden and
when they test for emissions it indicates an overly rich a/f
Ratio with leaky exhaust
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 19, 2015, 06:56:09 PM
Throttle blades had to be cracked manually given the CI of the engine.... This makes the car start now ( wouldnt start before because it was not getting enough air). Possibly a combo of the manual cracking open of the throttle blades mixed with lean signal from 02 sensor..... More air, more fuel higher idle?

Hahahah love that story BTW. Perspective. Lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on May 19, 2015, 07:05:08 PM
Hmmmm rich A/F beacuse wrong O2 sensor signal makes you
have to open trotle blades to start...sounds possible
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on May 19, 2015, 07:08:07 PM
Have you installed new fuel lines?Maby some metal shavings
have entered the fuel regulator and screw it up?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 19, 2015, 08:04:22 PM
Questions

1 - Where do you get the RPM input for the EFI?  Did you use the tach output from the MSD or the neg terminal of the coil?

2 - Did you input how many injectors during setup?  You arent supposed to, just checking instructions

3 - Did you reset the TPS open and close settings when you opened the throttle blades? If not, you need to

4 - Most important.....

Why is this thing overheating so soon?  You need to figure that out first.  Are the fans on?  If yes and maybe airbound, jack the thing up with the nose in the air, turn the heater on, and get the water through it.  You drilled the thermostat earlier right?

Your O2 sensor stuff is good thinking but you need to read the O2 value, don't deduce, and more importantly we need to get it to stop overheating so you can let it run and you can observe



Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: rockittsled on May 19, 2015, 08:44:42 PM
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE DONT SELL IT!!!  As HEO suggested, take a break from the car for a while. It can and will help

Rocci
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on May 19, 2015, 08:53:43 PM
Jason, don't throw the towel in yet. You're right at the end of this huge project. You wouldn't happen to have a vacuum hose/line off somewhere? How is the MAP attached in this setup, is it on a throttle body or connected with a vacumm hose? Do you have any close up pics of the throttle bodies?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Bolted to Floor on May 19, 2015, 09:44:13 PM
Jason don’t give up on it. You think your heart broke now. Go ahead and sell it, then speed the next God know how many years wondering what it would have been like to drive it around!!!

Keep plugging away, you will get it right. Close the door on the garage for a while and let it sit in the dark. A short term separation might be good for you and the car.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 19, 2015, 10:14:39 PM
I actually did not recalibrate the TPS after adjusting the throttle blades. That actually would account for the extra RPM. Since the computer opens the blades in addition to what I adjusted without knowing it did!  Nice one

Also, dual fans are not kicking on.  Honestly, i really do like the look of these toggles. Feels very race car. I am going to put the fans on toggle so they run constantly seeing howfast this car hit 255 degrees, im sure it will have no problem staying at 180 even with constant fans

I may, just while its up on jack stands, try tightening the head tubes to the collectors... Just to see if I can make them a little more air tight
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 19, 2015, 10:21:49 PM
That is going to be such a cool car, you will be kicking yourself for years if you unload it.  Take a break for a while and think about the best way to proceed.  It will be worth it in the end...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 19, 2015, 10:28:40 PM
Questions

1 - Where do you get the RPM input for the EFI?  Did you use the tach output from the MSD or the neg terminal of the coil?

2 - Did you input how many injectors during setup?  You arent supposed to, just checking instructions

3 - Did you reset the TPS open and close settings when you opened the throttle blades? If not, you need to

4 - Most important.....

Why is this thing overheating so soon?  You need to figure that out first.  Are the fans on?  If yes and maybe airbound, jack the thing up with the nose in the air, turn the heater on, and get the water through it.  You drilled the thermostat earlier right?

Your O2 sensor stuff is good thinking but you need to read the O2 value, don't deduce, and more importantly we need to get it to stop overheating so you can let it run and you can observe

Tach signal comes from the MSD ignition box "tach out" wire

Did not tell the system how many injectors, only selected dual quad on the handheld

Like you said, if I could just get it to idle normal, without the eye burning smoke and the overheating, we could get diagnostic data.....  Lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 20, 2015, 06:06:57 AM

Like you said, if I could just get it to idle normal, without the eye burning smoke and the overheating, we could get diagnostic data.....  Lol

Good, but to be clear, I am saying to set the TPS, then focus on the cooling.  The EFI may clean up with just the TPS calibration

What triggers the fans?  The EFI or another temp sensor?  I really REALY hate all the toggles, trust me, it's not the quality of the rest of the build you have done so far.  You have seen what happens already when you were shutting the motor down.  The more you have to remember, the more you will forget.

However, I sure as hell would temporarily run a wire to them until I figured out the EFI and have them run all the time if I couldn't figure it out, then you can come back and wire them correctly later

Just to reiterate though, I would park it outside and let it smoke for a little while if it would run cool, the overheating is the immediate problem.  Need to remember the most important thing about big projects...

How do you eat an elephant?.....one bite at a time.  Its not overheating and rich mixture, its overheating, then rich mixture, separate them so you can slow down your decisions and think things through.

Right now I think you are focusing on the EFI, but the cooling needs to be fixed before you do anything



Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: 2ndgear on May 20, 2015, 07:09:13 AM



































Just my 2 cents, but next time you firer that bad boy up maybe you could put a couple of big box fans in front of car to help cooling while you do some adjusting ?








Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 20, 2015, 08:53:53 AM
Yes I think the toggle will be temporarily placed. I think ( since its a puller set of fans) i have the wiring reversed. I think I need the blue wire to go to the negative and the black wire to go to positive....  However just want to keep it cool like you said so a toggle will help me just during this part

i actually tried box fans, but the saleens radiator is tucked back behind a lot of plastic. Best to just get the toggle to run the fans constantly for now

Also yes I will recalibrate the TPS. Makes complete sense, and the tech did not even mention it. After talking to the tech, i should take note of what he says and then comb back over the instructions to make sure nothing needs to accompany his task. LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 20, 2015, 02:31:11 PM
Wires reversed on electric fan. I had black going to black and blue going to red. This is how a push fan is wited, but these 2 are pull fans. Blue wire goes to black. Tested it with a jumper wire and both kick on
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 20, 2015, 02:37:54 PM
Good, in case you didnt understand the TPS, it is what tells the computer what your foot is asking for.

By not recalibrating after the adjustment, it likely thinks you have your foot on the gas pedal which throws all the normal idle and cold start calibration out of whack.

Have you figured out a way to fill the cooling system?  If you have to, jack the nose of the car up so the fill point is the highest point, you could even loosen the upper rad hose, or whatever hose is pretty high and use it like a bleeder.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 20, 2015, 02:56:24 PM
Yes i have the degas tank tied into lower radiator hose correctly. When the thermostat opens, if it still needs coolant after burping, it will pull from there. Hopefully now with fans running, it wont boil over. I think the fans get their signal from the cylinder head temperature sensor i have adapted into the intake manifold water jacket....  I want to test it........ see if the fans kick on at 180 degrees before i fire the engine. Maybe boil water and bring pot into the garage... With the key in the acc position dip the sensor into boiling water and see if fans kick on?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 20, 2015, 02:59:09 PM
Are you using the MSD fan control?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 20, 2015, 03:04:29 PM
No fans are tied into Saleen ECU still since I an using the saleen thermostat housing with saleen thermostat. I have the ( now) correctly wired into the original saleen harness using the stock relay. Also using the saleen cylinder head temp sensor to tell the fans when to kick on. The FAST ecu has its own coolant temp sensor, but it does not control the fans
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 20, 2015, 03:33:36 PM
The stock one probably will not work, matter of fact I would be amazed if what you are describing works.  I would think that the original ECM just takes input from the coolant temp sensor and then commands the fan circuit, but without all the normal inputs, it's likely not thinking straight, if at all.  Could be why yours isn't turning on.

The EZ-EFI should have fan control, that is what I would use, but you'll need to be sure there is a relay in line, no matter which setup you use.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 20, 2015, 06:09:04 PM
Agreed. I ordered a relay harness so the FAST ecu will controll the fans. Should avvive next week. Then I have controll over start and stop temps

Thanks
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 20, 2015, 06:33:03 PM
Once you get all squared away, you may want to start over with the EFI load by resetting the tune and inputting all your specs.

Although  I doubt the computer did much, if any, learning, sometimes when you have lots of goofy things happen then best thing to do is start over with a control-alt-delete.  You never know what kind of tweaks it made as it read 255 degrees and a very rich condition cobined with low voltage.

A good time to do that would be when you install the fan control.  Reset the FAST (sorry called it MSD before) computer and set all the parameters where you want them, calibrate the TPS, and fire it.

Also, remember that your high idle may be because you opened the throttles too much, don't change it now, but when the fans are running, if its still racing, adjust them lower, recalibrate the TPS and try again
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 20, 2015, 07:33:35 PM
Will do. I actually did further reading and you are correct, fans wont work as they currently set up. The CHT sensor I adapted to work on the cammer doesnt even control the fans ( was given this info by a custom hotrod shop). The CHT sensor tells the saleens stock ecu if its getting too hot, and then signals the ecu to shut down fuel injectors until the engine cools. Its not even a fan control sensor

Either way, i ordered a fan relay harness from FAST to allow the efi ecu to control the fans

Actually had a question. The way the saleens radiator /thermostat works is that the water is sitting in the radiator on queue waiting for the thermostat to open so it can be sucked up into the water pump ( thermostat is located inside the lower radiator hose.

Question is, its a 180 degree thermostat.  Do I want the fans to come on at 180?  Or 190? So the thermostat stays open ( above 180) and the fans can cool it ? 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 20, 2015, 09:30:49 PM
I like the fans to come on at 15-20 degrees higher than thermostat temp then off at 5-10 under.  The 180 stat actually starts to open at 180 but is likely not fully open until 190, if you have them come on at 195-200, it will allow the thermostat to do its job and when it can't solve the problem, the fans will kick in.  Otherwise they will be on all the time.

The FAST system has a turn on temp that is adjustable, and then shuts off 20 degrees below that.  So on at 195 will be off at 175, that should be good with your thermostat.  If they run all the time, you can adjust it to 200
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 20, 2015, 09:36:00 PM
Thanks Ross. Ill let you know once I have it all appropriately wired.

Few days off while waiting will do me good. Lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 21, 2015, 11:00:08 AM
Hey Guys,

Just because I was super perturbed when I was scalded with steaming coolant the other day..... and because I have gotten the "Coolant Fan" issue being taken care of, I wanted to make sure my thermostat "situation" is under control.....  since I am using a Saleen part in a custom way:

Just to bring back the OEM coolant flow diagram:

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/http___iihs.net_fsm_viewfile.php_dir179ampviewfileEngine%20Cooling_zps5x8fmyjj.png) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/http___iihs.net_fsm_viewfile.php_dir179ampviewfileEngine%20Cooling_zps5x8fmyjj.png.html)

So obviously this is not exactly how it will work (Figure above), but I am still using the OEM thermostat housing, it still connects to the bottom of the radiator for coolant (IN), still pulls gas out of the top of the radiator (#1= degas tank and #2 is the hose that feeds additional coolant into the system (Its also how you will the coolant up in this car), and the thermostat (hopefully) opens to allow coolant into the Cammer engine water pump.  So this is what the thermostat housing looks like.....  Its actually not even a stock Mustang part, but seems like an aftermarket part that Saleen installs while building the car:

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/mmfp_0908_12_zsuper_shaker_blower_systemthermostat_housing_zpsp4mnxbmz.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/mmfp_0908_12_zsuper_shaker_blower_systemthermostat_housing_zpsp4mnxbmz.jpg.html)

ok so I have this installed so the thermostat bottom (with the spring) is sitting down in this part of the housing: (See below)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/thermostat%20bottom%20With%20Spring_zpsfackswzu.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/thermostat%20bottom%20With%20Spring_zpsfackswzu.jpg.html)

The top of the thermostat is sitting up in this portion of the housing: (See below)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/thermostat%20top%20no%20spring_zpscqguac2j.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/thermostat%20top%20no%20spring_zpscqguac2j.jpg.html)

The degas tank supplied Coolant into the system down a hose and into this port on the housing (in the same area where hot coolant is sitting awaiting the thermostat to open): (See below)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/Degas%20tank%20coolint-IN_zpsjzn1k86t.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/Degas%20tank%20coolint-IN_zpsjzn1k86t.jpg.html)

There was an extra port on this housing that will not be used in my application, so I plugged it with a rubber expansion plug (sold at Autozone for just this reason): (See below)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/HOusing%20port%20that%20I%20capped-plugged_zpsqw9mdwfu.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/HOusing%20port%20that%20I%20capped-plugged_zpsqw9mdwfu.jpg.html)

And finally, this port below is connected to the bottom of the radiator.  It lets hot coolant (cooled by the fans/radiator already) into the housing in which the thermostat (bottom- with the spring) is housed.  Once it gets to 180 degrees, it opens letting coolant from the radiator (and some coolant from the degas tank to flow up into the Cammer engine water pump.  I removed the thermostat I had originally in the Cammer engine water neck so the water then flows freely around the engine, out the waterneck..... through the radiator, and assuming the thermostat in the Saleen housing, back through the water pump: (See below)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/Coolant%20in-%20where%20spring%20on%20thermostat%20is.%20In%20from%20Radiator%20bottom%20hose_zpsrjvu4sly.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/Coolant%20in-%20where%20spring%20on%20thermostat%20is.%20In%20from%20Radiator%20bottom%20hose_zpsrjvu4sly.jpg.html)


Sorry if this is overkill, but I want to make sure I am not boiled like a lobster ever again  LOL  Does this seem correct?

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on May 21, 2015, 12:11:17 PM
Im no expert on that but i dont see how it works beacuse the cold water
from the radiator is what hits the termostat ??? ??? i want the thermostat
on the outlet of the engine before  the rad. It obviously works on the Saleen
but i should use the SOHC thermostat housing remove the Saleen termostat
but leave the thermostat housing

I would understad it if it was reverseflow....are you sure the arrows is drawn
pointing the right directions. Beacuse i cant see how it works to have the thermostat
downstreem from radiator and feeding it with cooled water
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 21, 2015, 12:21:13 PM
Yea .  Not sure how the Saleen made it work at all???  I was just watching videos on cooling systems and what gets me is that you need to fill the cooling system through the degas tank.  Since the degas tank filters down into the closed portion of the thermostat housing (until the thermostat opens) I am basically just filling the radiator up with coolant and none is getting into the engine block.

I think I will take (Like you said) the Saleen thermostat out of the housing (I will leave its Flange as well as the O-ring on so it will still seal water tight)....  I will then replace the 190 degree thermostat in the Water neck of the Cammer engine (This thermostat I drilled 2 bypass holes in).  This should allow me to then pour coolant into the degas tank and it will fill up the engine block as well as the radiator.

I guess what I don't get (cant wrap my head around it) is.... When I fill the system with coolant (after I do the thermostat swap), the radiator , and block will be almost full of coolant.  When I run the engine, the water pump is going to start pumping the water from the radiator (now because the closed thermostat is not down there restricting it) and pumping it around the block....  But it can not escape until the thermostat in the water neck opens and lets it run down the radiator.  Can the Ford FE water pump ever pump enough coolant into the block and before the thermostat opens to release pressure.... cause a blow out?  Or does the engine coolant heat up so fast when you start the car that the thermostat will open fairly quickly?

I checked and the stock Saleen radiator is 3 core and the fans each move 1250 CFM (So 2500 CFM together)....  hopefully that's enough to keep it cool

Thanks Heo
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on May 21, 2015, 12:37:52 PM
No the wp dont build enough pressure to blow out something
the water will just cirkulate in the block untill the thermostat
open to to let hotwater out to the rad.And suck in cooled water
from bottom of the rad. Its important to dont have a airpocket
behind the thermostat beacuse it wont open and the heat build
pressure and then you have a nice geyser from the filler cap
When i fill an cooling system thats complete empty  i remove the
thermostat housing an fill to i have water up to the thermostat
or remove hose to the heater what ever thats easier
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 21, 2015, 01:44:36 PM
Thanks Heo.  I actually disconnected the heater, so I don't have to worry about air trapped in the heater core.  If I ever want to add it back later, I can, but for now, I will only have to worry about filling the block/radiator.  I will do like I did before and fill the car with coolant while the front is up on jack stands.  I will full as much that will go in the degas bottle, and then it stops filtering down into the engine, I will pour down into where the thermostat sits, before I put it back in and replace the water neck flange.

Also, drilling bypass holes in the thermostat that goes in the water neck (which I did already)...  doesn't seem like much coolant would get through those 2 small holes.  Does it really make that much difference in cooling?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on May 21, 2015, 02:01:18 PM
Also, drilling bypass holes in the thermostat that goes in the water neck (which I did already)...  doesn't seem like much coolant would get through those 2 small holes.  Does it really make that much difference in cooling?

The holes have nothing to do with cooling. Might drop a few degrees when hot compared to no holes. The idea is to allow water to flow before start up and eliminate an air pocket behind the thermostat. Drill the same size holes in a water bucket......the water will flow! 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on May 21, 2015, 02:24:36 PM
Yes the holes is to eleminate an airpocket behind the thermostat
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 21, 2015, 03:02:57 PM
AHHHH  ok.  I always read that its to prevent overheating and My first thought was, "wow, I couldn't imagine that small amount of water getting a head start through the radiator would make a difference.... "  I got it now, that makes total sense thanks! :D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 21, 2015, 05:40:59 PM
I would look really hard at your headers. 

I had sent a 347 SBF to a customer.  I dyno'd it with a carb setup, but put a FAST/Inglese 8-stack on it before I delivered it.  They just got it running, it ran for 20-30 minutes, then went REALLY rich and shut itself down. 

My customer's installer has been on the phone with FAST the past few days and one of the questions that they asked was what the O2 sensor data was showing.  Turns out that he had a bad header/exhaust leak and it was showing really lean....so the computer was trying to compensate. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 21, 2015, 07:41:01 PM
I just contacted the shop owner. He said those headers will not be air tight. He said he can move the o2 bung up one of the primary tubes closer to the engine???  Will that work?  Paid over 2200.00 for these headers. They are a thing of beauty, but are not apparently air tight at the collector.

He texted me just a second ago and said that he runs ton of EFI's on the slip style headers and never has an issue. He is actually going to come over Sunday morning and take a look
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 21, 2015, 08:46:52 PM
Yes you can move it to a primary tube, but remember, you cannot use any of your prior results for data

1 - You had the TPS adjusted wrong
2 - You fired it a bunch of times and it got hot enough to enter learning with the TPS wrong and changes in fuel pressure
3 - You overheated it giving it bad data
4 - You ran it with low voltage a bunch of times

Again, ignore your old data and just get it running first and staying cool, trust me.  This O2 sensor discussion is like chasing windmills until you can get it running and staying at normal temps, please please please....try to avoid helping or being helped until you have that squared away.  Trust me

I also think the headers are no issue whatsoever, or better said, not a significant issue. 

For the thermostat, why can't you just use a stock style for the cammer and add an inline radiator cap to the upper hose and use a solid lower hose?  Seems like an easier fix, then use the degas bottle as an overflow if you want to keep it

ON EDIT, I think I figured it out..... I think your Saleen part is for reverse flow, there is no way it would get hot water to open the thermostat and the picture you have above seems to show the lower degas manifold without a thermostat. I think that maybe the diagram is for a standard flow, but your car was reverse flow.

You may be able to use the Saleen manifold without a thermostat (leave it wide open)  and add a thermostat to the SOHC water neck up top.  Then it would match the diagram above

Note that I am not talking about fuel mixture :) just cooling....  and yes I am using my Colonel's voice with with all my bold LOL.  I am the EFI lover in the room, but you HAVE to take one bite of that elephant. 

Matter of fact, I think your visit from the header guy has the potential to cause more trouble if you havent got the cooling worked out.  I'd wave him off if it was mine, at least until the cooling is fixed
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 21, 2015, 08:58:51 PM
Follow Ross' advice, Jason....

I haven't been in on the thread for the entirety, so I'm hit and miss at best with the data.  I was driving in the truck today and called a customer to see how things were going and we had this discussion.  It rang a bell with your initial startup issues, so I thought I would post. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on May 21, 2015, 09:03:33 PM
+1 on following Ross' advice!

Too many balls in the air now, and there are some bigger ones to catch first.  Get that cooling deal under control.  Then you will have a better shot at getting the engine to a stable running situation.

The idea of putting the thermostat in the cammer water neck sounds intriguing...

- Bill
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 21, 2015, 09:06:03 PM
I will definitely take care of cooling issue first. Also will definitely start over with a new tune and erase the old tune. I honestly appreciate your and everyones help

Again I have to say, i heard it run before it overheated 2 weeks ago and it sounded bad ass at 1000 RPM

Will definitely take one bite at a time starting with cooling
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on May 21, 2015, 09:23:49 PM
Jason -  Sounds like a plan.  We're all here to help, and believe me, we've been down that bumpy road on our own projects.

Remember that post I made before Christmas?

"Good luck Jason!  Now the fun part begins.  Just be ready for lots of little PITA issues that the guys here will help you through.

My father-in-law is an ex-Boeing director, and he still consults on the International Space Station.  He likes to say, "Hardware is the greatest teacher".

You're (and we're) going to learn a few things before this is done!"


Hang on for the ride.  The fact that this is so hard will make it taste all the sweeter when you are romping that car down the road.

- Bill
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 21, 2015, 09:38:14 PM
Bill and the others

Look close at the diagram he has, IMO there is no way that there could be a thermostat in that lower hose housing in the diagram.  It would only see cold water (like Heo said perfectly) and therefore would behave EXACTLY like cobracammers car is.  The thermostat would not open and the car would boil over before hot water got to the bottom hose

So we know 2 things
1 - The diagram is for a standard flow
2 - The FE is standard flow

And can deduce one
- The thermostat cannot be on the bottom hose in his application

I'd add a thermostat (with a small hole drilled) up top, then put the Saleen manifold on the bottom without a thermostat, and see what happens

It will run cool IMHO, I doubt that will be an issue.  The question is, will the degas bottle work correctly.  I think so because it will be no different from the diagram


Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 21, 2015, 09:43:35 PM
BTW You are doing great, no snotty remarks, listening to advice, etc.  People love to help people like that, so don't sweat it.  The type of build you are doing is icing on the cake

Matter of fact, I will be in Orlando for 12 days, I tried to figure a way to get down to see you, but after being on the road for 10 months, Mrs Stang said some words I didnt know she knew :)  So we'll have to keep working via the web unless you tow it to the Disney parking lot
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 22, 2015, 06:51:07 AM
 Lol  I actually do remember that Bill.....  LOL  I kept telling my wife......  Building the engine (in retrospect) was the simple part  LOL

Thanks Ross.....  If I lived closer to Orlando I 100% would bring it to you  LOL  But sadly I am like 4 hours south of there.  I am going to do as stated above and pull the thermostat out of the Saleens housing on the bottom hose.  I will cut the flange off of the thermostat itself and put it back into the housing (I need the round lip of the thermostat itself in combination with a large o-ring to make the housing water tight.)

I am going to replace the the Galaxie thermostat (I believe I got a 190 degree one) back into the Cammer water neck.  I drilled 2 holes in it as instructed in a previous post.  Before I insert the thermostat, I will fill the block with coolant.  Once I have done that, Ill pop in the thermostat and tighten it back down.

I have the FAST harness for the fans (with its own relay).  I called yesterday and with a picture of the actual harness, I went over it with a technician.  The Single red wire does to the battery.  I will have to pick up an inline fuse (as per the tech) and place it between the harness and the battery.
Then, the red wire coming out of the relay goes to the black wires on the fans (+)  and the Pink wire will be 12V switched (which I will not toggle :0)    )

The green wire I was told is the ground (which would go to the Blue wire on the ECU harness which is Fan relay (ground connection).

The Fans ground wires will need to be grounded to the frame.

I think I read somewhere that the relay is supposed to trigger the ground connection, and ofcourse the tech got a little confused before he gave me an answer.  It seems to me from this set up that the fans would already be grounded (to the frame), and that when the ECU sends a signal, the relay is then supplying a (+) signal turning on the fans (But wiring is my least favorite thing to do- other than bathing is boiling coolant).  Below is a picture of the harness.  I just wanted to throw this out there:

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/Harness-Fan%20or%20Fuel%20relay_zpstj29zyqj.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/Harness-Fan%20or%20Fuel%20relay_zpstj29zyqj.jpg.html)

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on May 22, 2015, 07:27:00 AM
n/m
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on May 22, 2015, 07:28:53 AM
Bill and the others

Look close at the diagram he has, IMO there is no way that there could be a thermostat in that lower hose housing in the diagram.  It would only see cold water (like Heo said perfectly) and therefore would behave EXACTLY like cobracammers car is.  The thermostat would not open and the car would boil over before hot water got to the bottom hose

So we know 2 things
1 - The diagram is for a standard flow
2 - The FE is standard flow

And can deduce one
- The thermostat cannot be on the bottom hose in his application

I'd add a thermostat (with a small hole drilled) up top, then put the Saleen manifold on the bottom without a thermostat, and see what happens

It will run cool IMHO, I doubt that will be an issue.  The question is, will the degas bottle work correctly.  I think so because it will be no different from the diagram

2X to 427's analysis. After seeing the diagram, he's right in that the t-stat can't on the bottom. This must be as Heo also stated the source of the overheating. If the T-stat never gets hot coolant on the backside, it can't open, hence the overheating.

Heck, just for a 'proof of concept" test you could take out the t-stat altogether and button up that t-stat housing. Add a big chuck of cardboard in front of the radiator, just like we northerners sometimes do in winter...just in case the engine does heat up correctly; have scissors handy to cut that board down if it does run hot and the fans don't kick in. Sitting still in a garage it should heat up. Or, you could fashion by hand a Moroso style t-state plate, to limit water flow through that housing with a cut-up flat piece of thin  aluminum sheet stock (beer can?) drilled for say a 1/2" to 5/8's hole, again just to test the idea. 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-63440?seid=srese1&gclid=CMmov9Ws1cUCFQYxaQodqmEAmA



Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on May 22, 2015, 11:46:21 AM

So obviously this is not exactly how it will work (Figure above), but I am still using the OEM thermostat housing, it still connects to the bottom of the radiator for coolant (IN), still pulls gas out of the top of the radiator (#1= degas tank and #2 is the hose that feeds additional coolant into the system (Its also how you will the coolant up in this car), and the thermostat (hopefully) opens to allow coolant into the Cammer engine water pump.  So this is what the thermostat housing looks like.....  Its actually not even a stock Mustang part, but seems like an aftermarket part that Saleen installs while building the car:

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/mmfp_0908_12_zsuper_shaker_blower_systemthermostat_housing_zpsp4mnxbmz.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/mmfp_0908_12_zsuper_shaker_blower_systemthermostat_housing_zpsp4mnxbmz.jpg.html)

ok so I have this installed so the thermostat bottom (with the spring) is sitting down in this part of the housing: (See below)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/thermostat%20bottom%20With%20Spring_zpsfackswzu.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/thermostat%20bottom%20With%20Spring_zpsfackswzu.jpg.html)

The top of the thermostat is sitting up in this portion of the housing: (See below)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/thermostat%20top%20no%20spring_zpscqguac2j.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/thermostat%20top%20no%20spring_zpscqguac2j.jpg.html)

The degas tank supplied Coolant into the system down a hose and into this port on the housing (in the same area where hot coolant is sitting awaiting the thermostat to open): (See below)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/Degas%20tank%20coolint-IN_zpsjzn1k86t.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/Degas%20tank%20coolint-IN_zpsjzn1k86t.jpg.html)

There was an extra port on this housing that will not be used in my application, so I plugged it with a rubber expansion plug (sold at Autozone for just this reason): (See below)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/HOusing%20port%20that%20I%20capped-plugged_zpsqw9mdwfu.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/HOusing%20port%20that%20I%20capped-plugged_zpsqw9mdwfu.jpg.html)

And finally, this port below is connected to the bottom of the radiator.  It lets hot coolant (cooled by the fans/radiator already) into the housing in which the thermostat (bottom- with the spring) is housed.  Once it gets to 180 degrees, it opens letting coolant from the radiator (and some coolant from the degas tank to flow up into the Cammer engine water pump.  I removed the thermostat I had originally in the Cammer engine water neck so the water then flows freely around the engine, out the waterneck..... through the radiator, and assuming the thermostat in the Saleen housing, back through the water pump: (See below)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/Coolant%20in-%20where%20spring%20on%20thermostat%20is.%20In%20from%20Radiator%20bottom%20hose_zpsrjvu4sly.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/Coolant%20in-%20where%20spring%20on%20thermostat%20is.%20In%20from%20Radiator%20bottom%20hose_zpsrjvu4sly.jpg.html)


Sorry if this is overkill, but I want to make sure I am not boiled like a lobster ever again  LOL  Does this seem correct?

Hi Jason, just noticing you're routing on the hoses on t-stat housing. It appears to me you may have the inlet and outlet hoses reversed. The spring side of the t-stat as far as I know always faces the engine and is subjected to warm/hot coolant that acts on the wax pellet inside to open the valve. If this is facing the radiator with "cold" coolant coming in, how would the thermostat open? I would think that may be the problem that the thermostat isn't opening, and yes air is trapped in the system. Just my $0.02. Btw, I think that other port that is capped should be fine. Do you have some pics of your hose setup on the car?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on May 22, 2015, 11:55:40 AM
GM has been installing thermostats in the lower radiator hose/water pump inlets for a while now, they have done it on numerous 4, 6, and 8 cylinders. The impression I get for the reason is that it helps to stabilize the operation of the thermostat, less fluctuation in operation. Also if the hose switch deal doesn't work or you don't want to try it, I don't see why it wouldn't work to run the thermostat in the upper housing as others stated. ;) Hope you get it all sorted out. It is a very cool project and should be very rewarding when settled.

http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jaredaebly/media-full/Mobile%20Uploads/zr1waterflowcrop-1_zpspwgbianb.jpeg.html
http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jaredaebly/media-full/Mobile%20Uploads/LS4_coolant_connections2_zpslnf6wuwq.jpeg.html
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 22, 2015, 02:10:32 PM
To be in the lower hose it would have to be reverse flow, otherwise the hot water would never really get to the thermostat.  I would guess the Chevies are reverse flow?

ON EDIT - Chevy LT1 and all the later LS series are indeed reverse flow.  That's why the thermostat is there, always has to be on the outlet of the block, bot the inlet.  Reverse flow, down bottom, normal flow, up top
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on May 22, 2015, 02:59:34 PM
Isn't everything on a Chevy ass-backwards? :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on May 22, 2015, 04:26:02 PM
From what I can tell the 4 and 6 cylinders are not reverse flow. In the bottom picture I linked it shows the cold side from the radiator going "in" the thermostat. It just seems confusing. :-\ Yes the LT1s are reverse flow for sure. I think the easiest thing may be to just put the t-stat in the upper housing.

"Reverse" flow cooling, most notably on the Gen 2 SBV8s (LT1, LT4, L99) fed coolant to the heads first. Coolant then flowed into the block and finally out of the engine. The coolant went through the thermostat twice, once on the way in and a second time, on the way out. On the way in, it heat controls the thermostat and on the way out, it's routed either to the radiator or back to the engine.

Neither the LT5 nor the Gen 3/4 V8 family have reverse flow cooling. They do, however, have the thermostats located at the engine coolant inlet rather than at the outlet.

The LT5 also has a coolant bypass that prevents coolant pressure from rupturing or the radiator at high rpm. There's a spring loaded valve that opens when the pressure differential across the radiator reaches a certain point. The open valve allows coolant flow to bypass the radiator.

The statement above that the LT5 had a form of reverse flow cooling that was later adapted to the Gen 2 V8s is not correct.
Quoted from corvetteactioncenter forum.

Also, in the diagram of the mustang coolant flow, that is different than what must be on the saleen because it does not have the thermostat housing assy. tied into the hoses like the other pictures of it from Mustangs and Fast Fords. The diagram of flow is the exact same setup that is on my daily driver '03 Crown Vic and the t-stat is in the small housing attached to the upper rad. hose.

http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jaredaebly/media-full/Mobile%20Uploads/20150522_164511_zpslhgiqy01.jpg.html
http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jaredaebly/media-full/Mobile%20Uploads/20150522_164335_zps0xsasgdc.jpg.html
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 22, 2015, 06:53:13 PM
Hey guys. Just to settle this, I stopped on the way home and got a 180 degree thermostat ( rather than use the 195 degree one I have now).  I drilled the relief hole in it as directed.

i then removed the lower Saleen thermostat and removed the thermostat from it.  I removed the thermostat center from the outer lip with a dremmel so i have just a flat washer like ring of the thermostat ( which helps seal the thermostat when bolted togeter). I washed it, put the o ring on top of it, and sealed it back up. Reinstalled it back on the lower radiator hose, and tightened the clamps

Then, before reinstalling the waterneck and thermostat, i slowly filled the engine with coolant through the intake water jacket. Once it was almost full, i installed the new 180 degree thermostat, waterneck and bolted it back down.  I then filled the degas tank to the full mark.

Long story short, Done with that part.  As soon as the fan relay comes, we can get back to recalibrating and timing

Thanks guys
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 22, 2015, 08:31:44 PM
Sounds good, be sure to add more water when the thermostat opens

My hunch is the difference will be night and day
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on May 22, 2015, 08:54:23 PM
Jason, I think you're overheating problem should be solved this time. The Saleen is a confusing setup, but I think you got it now. Keep at it and maybe this time you'll be able to take a spin around the block! ;D Best of luck. Looking forward to a ride along vid.  ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on May 22, 2015, 09:11:10 PM
+1 here.  I bet the car cools a hell of a lot better now  :D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 24, 2015, 07:08:31 AM
I am at Disney checking for updates every morning and night...whatcha got?  Running cool yet?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 24, 2015, 08:47:05 AM
Hey Ross. Just got the fan relay harness. Doing the wiring and double checking. i might be able to recalibrate it and fire tonight or tomorrow.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 24, 2015, 04:59:43 PM
Hey Ross. See attached.

Still the unburnt fuel makes white smoke that burns my eyes. Not sure if you can tell from the ecu if I can lower the fuel pressure or not. Not sure if we need less fuel, or more air???  Still had to tap the throttle while cranking to get it to fire up, so may need to crack the throttle blades open a little more ( quarter turn?) and then recalibrate TPS and try again. Supposed to start without touching the throttle so not quite there yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDBfVNha0pg

Also realized this video once i upload it to youtube is not super clear. I can try uploading it on photobucket and reposting

Also, its like 100 degrees today. Fans came on at 190 like i put in the computer, but slowly the temp crept up as high as 211 before I shut it down for the night. Fans will run always i think, but how hot can i let it get before its a big no no?  Im sure cooler when its moving and not in a garage
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 24, 2015, 07:20:31 PM
Nothing wrong with 211, could even go 220+.  Remember, under pressure boils a lot higher than 212.  Every pound of the cap raises it by 2 degrees and the antifreeze mix raises it even higher, so are you are far away from that, and as the motor loosens up it will likely cool more.

Now for the exhaust.  Is it possible to get it to run for a long while?  Depending on the type of muffler, you could easily have the mufflers filled with fuel and not really having an issue.

However, I wouldn't do it on a guess,  the way to tell that is to look at what the A/F mixture says.  If it is reading a normal number, but stinks, then let it get hot.  If it is reading rich, even after getting to operating temp, then you need to act. 

ON EDIT: See below, I looked again and I don't think it is running rich.  Seems to be what you set it at for idle

I am going to throw down a theory hear though.  FAST said lower the real fuel pressure.  If you decide that the mixture is too rich, you may want to consider raising the COMPUTER fuel pressure

My logic behind this is.
1 - Lowering the real fuel pressure will work until the injector starts having a crappy spray pattern, you don't want that

2 - By raising what the computer thinks you have it set at, it will shorten pulse width (injector duration) because it thinks there is more going into the injector.  That should lean it while allowing you to keep REAL pressure high enough

3 - Don't adjust anything until you know what the current O2 sensor readings are, your nose is a guess that O2 sensor knows. 

ON EDIT: I am on a laptop, but it looks like its running at 13.7:1 ish, that's pretty close to what you had the idle a/f set at no?  If so, it may just need some run time

4 - Again, remember if you have a fiberglass packed muffler, it could take a while to clean up and it would require heat too.  If its not packed, it still needs some heat, but likely not as long
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 24, 2015, 07:27:34 PM
Hey ross. Thanks. Video is a little blurry, but the Air fuel ratio during idle was like 13.6

Yes car was running good. I only shut it down to post the video

Mufflers are Magnaflows.

Here is the video posted photobucket. Might be clearer:

http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/3B7913A2-E20C-4C6A-BC1B-5A0882EFAB12_zpsj1idow0p.mp4.html

Tomorrow I am going to fill it upwith fresh 93 octane, i am going to crack the throttle blades open a little more so that it starts without touching the gas, i will then recalibrate the TPS, and hopefully let it run outside in the driveway so its a little cooler. Keep you posted, and maybe a drive around the block?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 24, 2015, 09:01:35 PM
Good plan, at 13.6 at idle, it shouldn't be an issue. 

Magnaflows are absorption mufflers, so you are likely smelly everything that has soaked in since the initial fire, fuel, oil, assembly lube, etc.

Keep watching that display though and before and after your run, check your oil level.  If it is making oil or is excessively full of fuel enough to raise the level on the dipstick, we'll have to dig deeper

My hunch is the mufflers are a stinky sponge at this point.

Run it for a while, then a small circle around the neighborhood, then larger until you feel safe.  Be sure to bring a cell phone and fire extinguisher...anything else will wait for the cavalry to come :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 24, 2015, 09:14:33 PM
Also, not sure if it is even noticeable (I may just be crazy), but I felt like the car sounded better at 1100 RPM (the last time I had it running.  This time, the ECU had it at 1000 RPM and it would fluctuate between  1000 and 950.

Again it may just be me, but it sounded like it had a much better "cam thump" beat going on at 1100 -1200 RPM.

Is it possible that I could run the car at like 1100 RPM for the first few hundred miles.... and then once its gotten "worn in" sort of speak, then I can lower it down to 1000?

no big deal.....  just was watching both videos and it sounded better in the last one at a higher RPM.


ALSO!  This doesnt make any sense to me.  Initial timing I set at 20 degrees BTDC, While the car is running, if I turn the distributor clockwise (which should be advancing it), It starts to go up from 20 degrees BTDC to 30 degrees BTDC....  I was hoping to see if go from 20 degrees to 14 degrees with a clockwise turn so I am at a loss.  I know I have TDC exact, I know it runs at 20 degrees BTDC, but I have no idea why when I move the distributor clockwise, it should move toward TDC, but it doesnt  LOL 

1st the distributor rotates counter clockwise, so moving the cap clockwise, should move you closer to firing at TDC

2nd, the Crankshaft rotates Clockwise...... this is how I turned the timing to 20 degrees to set initial.... and when it fired up, it was at 20 degrees...  so thats right.

I guess this is no big deal because when the car started, I turned the distributor the tiniest bit in the clockwise rotation, and it sounded TONS better  ..... runs solid, and when I rev it, it revs up LOUD and smooth....  so I have it where I want it for now.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 24, 2015, 09:33:33 PM
20-30 is advancing the timing, you want to retard it to get to 14

20 degrees before TDC, vs 30 before, the 30 is 10 degrees sooner.....or more before LOL

To get it closer to TDC you need to retard it, or turn the distributor counter clockwise.

To go from 20 to 14, you need to turn it counter clockwise....

As far as it sounding better with more initial, they all do.  However, you need to set it where your total is designed to come in or at higher RPM and load it's going to detonate and hurt itself.

You are going to see a trend here...don't time, tune or anything else by ear.  Use your big boy numbers :)

As far as lowering the idle, you are doing it again, trying to solve multiple problems at once.

1 - Lets get the timing set correctly and stop touching it, it likely is NOT right now, it is likely too far advanced
2 - Get some miles on it and gather data so we can be sure the exhaust cleans up and the computer learns
3 - Idle it lower later if it likes it (it probably will)

Today you did cooling, timing, and got it running, we were only working on cooling and firing it, not even tuning yet, never mind timing by ear :)

I am going to slow you down if it's the last thing I do LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 24, 2015, 09:51:19 PM
Hahaha. Thanks Ross. One at a time. Gotcha.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 25, 2015, 05:40:38 AM
I forgot what your timing curve is like, but Jay can likely tell you desired total timing for a Cammer.  It is generally based on fuel plus chamber design, piston design, cam, etc, basically anything that affects compression and turbulence in the chamber.

A WAG is 36 degrees total, subtract what you have for a bushing in the distributor (say 20) and the remainder is where you want initial, that would be 16 in my example. (36-20=16 initial) If Jay doesn't chime in, that should be very close, but if he gives a better total or you have a different bushing, just do the math,

Before you fire it today, check your water level and oil level, and if you had the tranny out, verify that there is oil in it too!   You may be well on your way to burning some rubber!



Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Barry_R on May 25, 2015, 08:06:09 AM
This is really hugely cool to read about  ;D

I agree with Ross about 800% - go in steps. 
Sounds like you've made huge strides.
Congrats!

as I mentioned before, when the EZ system "learns" it takes time to do so.  You are going to need to dwell at each RPM and load for a little while and it'll sweep back and forth around the target.  If I recall correctly the instructions say it needs to reach 160 degrees - on the dyno the corrections were only very clearly visible on the O2 sensors once we reached 180.

If you have somebody in your area with a chassis dyno it would be a great tool to let you "drive" the car at different speeds and loads and get most of the initial learning done in a controlled environment.  Do not try any smack the throttle wide open throttle stuff right away no matter how tempting it is.  You are going to want to work your way up to that range - I learned that too....
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 25, 2015, 08:09:43 AM
Thanks Barry. The shop where I had the headers made has a dyno....  Once a month or so, he theows a free dyno day. I think ill hit him up for that. LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Barry_R on May 25, 2015, 08:16:45 AM
You don't want the "normal" wide open throttle Hollywood dyno runs - at least not yet.

You want to use up an hour or two of steady state cruising at various RPM and loads.
Like set the speed at 2200 RPM and loaded like you are going up an incline for 5 minutes.
Then at 3000 RPM and a light load like you're doing 80 on the freeway.
Then at a harder sweep from 2000 RPM to 4000 RPM a dozen times over as it learns.
Different things over, and over again with some cool down time in between.

Its just much easier to do that tuning on a chassis roller than by driving around, and around, and around...
...and does not look as suspicious to the officer when you go half throttle on the freeway from 40 to 70 - six times in a row  ::)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 25, 2015, 09:07:56 AM
Jason, on the timing I wouldn't go more than 32 degrees total, at least to start.  Most of the SOHCs I've dynoed start losing power by 34 total, which means they are running into detonation.  Keep it at 30-32 degrees total at this stage.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 25, 2015, 11:38:15 AM
Ok guys. One step at a time. Filled the tank with 93 octane. Pulled the car out of the garage into the driveway. Started over with a fresh tune. This is kind of embarassing, but once the car hits operating temp, it asks you to watch the A/F bar.... It asks you to adjust the idle blade screws until the bar reaches the target, and then says push enter to recalibrate

Never looked at the screen this long so I never did this.... But now I did and its locked in

The next problem is the temperature. Fans kick on at 190, and they both run rull blast.... Never shutting off.  And the car still overheats. How to solve?  If there an addative or something that would help?  The radiator just barely fits, so I am not sure I could get a bigger radiator????

On a seperate note, thunderstorm came, so I put the car in 1st, pulled into the road, put it in reverse, backed up. And went foward into the garage.  Transmission and clutch work ( positive note) however as soon as I pulled into the garage, it was already boiling over

The fans pull 2500 cfm in total, and i read the radiator is tri core (?). Im pretty sure its not!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on May 25, 2015, 01:39:17 PM
How hot is hot? Does the temp ever stabilize or is it exceeding say 220 or so and still rising? Did you kick on the heater full blast and the heater fan switch on high? Still rising? With the heater on, feel the hoses as the hot one should be.......hot!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 25, 2015, 02:33:23 PM
Did you top off the fluid once the thermostat opened?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 25, 2015, 02:51:58 PM
Yes, goes past 220. Fans slow it down, but still boils out of the degas tank. I do not have a heater, so I cannot turn it on. I never reconnected the heater hoses. I am guessing not enough radiator or not enough CFM on fan?

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on May 25, 2015, 02:56:59 PM
Where's the timing?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: foxlincoln on May 25, 2015, 03:28:31 PM
I have been following this build and I think the modern cooling system is wrong for the SOHC.I would install a 4 core after market radiator,can the degas bottle and lower t-stat housing and look at the SOHC t-stat.Did Ford use restriction plates or t-stats on the SOHC.I don't see a bypass on the water pump,seems if the t-stat was closed the water pump would be deadheading and creating cavitation.I also remember t-stats in the 60's were 160 and 180.The 190's came latter on emission vehicles.Hope this helps.Your have tackled a build a lot of pros would stay away from.I love it.Just a little more to go.Thank Terry
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on May 25, 2015, 04:59:31 PM
Are the head gaskets on correctly, tabs showing at the lower front corner of each head?

http://diyford.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/452.jpg
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 25, 2015, 05:46:28 PM
I think thats a good idea. New multi core radiator, get rid of degas bottle, and add a radiator cap inline with the upper radiator hose ( there is still the gas vent on the top of the radiator that vents into the degas bottle).

Going to think this one through and do some research on radiators that will fit 05-11 ford mustang GT's

Other than that, car starts up.... Smokes a ton less ( but still smokes a little) and drives. Just have to get it to stay cool

Also, timing is at 20 degrees BTDC.  I will get it down to 13 ( requires a little more effort due to interference with the water neck) after i get the radiator situation figured out

Thanks guys and Happy Memorial Day
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 25, 2015, 06:23:12 PM
I think you don't have enough fan.  I like to see 4000 cfm for a pickup truck with a lot more exit area, the more the better.  Your fans are fighting it.  Any way to fit something like a Lincoln or Taurus fan?

Does it get hot on the road or only idling?  If only idling and low speed, it's airflow.  If always, its radiator.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 25, 2015, 06:38:08 PM
Just at idle. I havent driven it yet, so unsure if it overheats then. Let me see if I can find 2 same size fans that will suck 2000 CFM or more each

Cannot fit anything but slim fit fans off center due to water pump pulley.  Ill find some stuff and post for thoughts

Also, still kinda normal to be smoking a little at this point?  Alot less than originally, but noticeable
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on May 25, 2015, 07:02:27 PM
You have run the car with open hood?
Some cars i had would boil wth the hood
open  Dont know how the Saleen is with
hood open
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 25, 2015, 07:07:29 PM
Yes always with hood open
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on May 25, 2015, 07:16:28 PM
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/der-16826/overview/ Derale staggered twin elcectric fans w/ shroud.

Maximum Fan CFM:4,000 cfm

Fan Quantity:Dual

Fan Diameter (in):12.000 in.

Height (in):17.125 in.

Width (in):25.625 in.

Thickness (in):3.500 in.

Number of Blades:7 blades

Blade Material:Plastic

Blade Color:Black

Shroud Color:Natural

Shroud Material:Aluminum

Amp Draw:24.80 amps

Air Conditioning Relay Included:No

Mounting Brackets Included:Yes

Mounting Hardware Included:Yes

Not sure if this will work for you but looks like a nice setup.


Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Barry_R on May 25, 2015, 07:54:37 PM
Look to Spal for fans - much better product than the vast majority of aftermarket stuff out there. 

They have high flow and each requires a separate relay.

They make some pretty low profile ones too - I have a pair (12" and 13" if I recall correctly) on my +/-700HP engine in a Torino.  One is wired to come on whenever the car is running, the other is on a temperature switch and almost never comes on.  Using a pair lets you have some extra room in the "middle" in between fans where the water pump pulley wants to live.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on May 25, 2015, 08:05:57 PM
+1 what Barry said. I am not certain, but I believe Derale uses the Spal fans in their setup.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 25, 2015, 08:07:54 PM
Thank you Jared.

Barry, i think my shroud fits 2  seperate 13" fans. What kind of radiator are you running on with those fans?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Barry_R on May 25, 2015, 08:10:23 PM
Its a huge aluminum Griffen - big car helps for certain.  I think its 19" x 31" with a 1.50" core.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 25, 2015, 09:02:23 PM
Thanks Barry.  Spal fans it is!

OK, in order to spend (again) just a little more $$$  I think it would make me feel better knowing that this will take care of the cooling issue.  I found these items and I think they look to fill the part:

Fans:
SPAL#063-30102044
13'' High-Performance Fan
12V
1777 cfm
Puller
Curved Blades
14-3/16'' x 13-5/8'' x 3-7/16''

Price: $155.00 Each (and these will install directly onto the aluminum shroud I currently have)

http://www.jegs.com/i/SPAL/063/30102044/10002/-1

Together these will give me 3554 CFM total ( 2 X fans each at 1777 CFM)

Radiator.....  I found out that I have a one row radiator.....  Stock unit...  nothing special from SAleen.  I found this (Price not too bad.  This is actually a 3 row!!! All aluminum radiator:  says cools up to 30% over stock unit.

SVE Aluminum Radiator
3 Row Design
100% Aluminum Construction
Direct Fit
Limited Lifetime Warranty
Fits 2005-09 4.6L 3V
29.3" x 21.5" x 5.43" Overall Dimensions
19.5" x 23.94" Core Size
1.5" Inlet Diameter
1.5" Outlet Diameter
2" Core 

Price : $234.00

http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/item/SVE-8005E/2005-09-Mustang-Aluminum-Radiator-for-Manual-Transmission


Please let me know if you think this will do the job (At idle and at speed).  I actually forgot to mention, but I went to autoparts store today and got the Royal Purple coolant addative (which supposedly makes the coolant run 20 degrees cooler).  No luck.  It actually slowly got hot at the same rate as before I added the additive.

Dont mind at all spending the $$ on the fans and radiator above (Because I am sooooooo close to driving this car), but if its not going to do the job (even with 2" core and 3 rows instead of the stock 1 row), then I would rather not  LOL

Thanks again guys!  My appreciation for all help on here is immeasurable.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 25, 2015, 10:00:50 PM
No wonder you are having cooling problems with a one row radiator!  I think your suggested parts will fit the bill just fine.  Spal fans are the best, by far...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 25, 2015, 10:30:03 PM
I like it too, the combo should work great.

As far as smoke, it should be cleaning up, but won't really build heat and clean up the mufflers until you get it on the road.  On the road you will have increased volume and EGT.

I will say though, keep watching the a/f mixtures and the oil, they are your indicators but I think you are getting close, getting some load on it and temp should clean things up and let it start adjusting itself.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 26, 2015, 08:43:22 AM
Yea, I cant believe the Saleen stayed cool with that. I ran it a few times this weekend and the air fuel always ends up at about 13.5. You can see the ecu trying different combos and learning, but always evens back out. 

As far as oil pressure, the gauge ( saleen) stays right in the center   I may add an aftermarket gauge later to see the exact PSI

Keep you posted on fans and Rad.  Both are shipping out today, and I should have the radiator by Friday (so it says). Hopefully it will fit.  If you remember, I had little to no room between water pump pulley and the shroud.  This radiator (even though its a direct fit), is still 1" thicker.  I think if I run into any issue, I can take off the March billet water pump pulley cover.  Its pretty, but it really cant be seen, and is about 1" thick....  Since the fans are off center, the motors (thickest part) have plenty of room.

So now I will have a 3 row radiator with 2" core...... and 2 spall fans (13" each) that pull a total 3554 CFM's.......  Hopefully that will keep it cool while at idle, and especially while cruising.  Just as an example, yesterday was only the 1st day of summer..... and it was 101 degrees where I am.   Its going to be an awfully hot summer...... 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 26, 2015, 12:44:20 PM
Hey Guys,

I was just realizing....  if this SVE radiator has a 2" core and the stock one has a 1 " core......  and if they both fit the stock radiator mounting points in the engine bay, then the radiator wont sit any closer to the front of the engine, but rather the extra inch must be at the back of the radiator (which is the part that goes toward the front bumper.

If this is the case, it should fit exactly the same (distance to the water pump pulley) as the OEM one now.... Oh please let this be the case!  But the more I look at it, the more it makes sense since there is tons of room behind the radiator...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 26, 2015, 02:52:32 PM
Also, not sure if it was due to the boiling over or not (just because this whole Saleen degas tank, lower thermostat housing thing), but when the car got to like 220 degrees, I shut it down, and then it seemed like hot coolant came back up the degas tank hose that runs to the housing in the lower radiator hose....  I am not sure if this will happen once the car is running cooler, but I see that Jegs sells a 1 way check valve for fuel, oil or Coolant with 12 AN inles and outlet.  I could very easily add this to the degas tanks line that runs to the lower radiator hose.  It will allow coolant to be sucked down into the system as its needed, but when the car is shut off, it wont let the coolant rush back up the line.

http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performance+Products/555/150024/10002/-1

If it happens after the radiator swap, Ill just add that. :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 26, 2015, 03:14:00 PM
OK I found a picture (and it wasn't easy) of that stupid Saleen thermostat housing.......

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/untitled_zpsuuqvq8dw.png) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/untitled_zpsuuqvq8dw.png.html)

From what it looks like, obviously the think 3/4 fitting goes to the Degas tank... Which I have it doing there now.

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/mmfp_0908_12_zsuper_shaker_blower_systemthermostat_housing_zpsp4mnxbmz.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/mmfp_0908_12_zsuper_shaker_blower_systemthermostat_housing_zpsp4mnxbmz.jpg.html)

However, the coolant opening facing you when you look at the photo (the one I put a coolant expander cap in) seems to go to the water inlet on the block.

The coolant opening on the bottom of the housing (the one facing the guys palm in the picture) appears to go to the outlet on the water crossover on the top of the block (next to the alternator)

The top coolant opening on the top of the housing (if looking at the picture)... and also the area where the top of the thermostat is housed.....  would seem to go to the lower radiator fitting.


So what I am gathering from this (and I think I asked this originally), is that this stupid (for lack of a better word) housing from the Saleen allows coolant to bypass the thermostat.  Coolant is pumped in from the water pump (coolant opening on the lower drives side of block, the water pump then circulates the coolant through the block and out of the coolant bypass (On top of the block next to alternator)....  it can keep circulating freely because its bypassing the thermostat.  Once it gets hot enough, the thermostat opens and coolant can then flow through to the lower drivers side of the radiator and (up?) to the upper radiator hose and then re-enter the engine once cooled through the other side (passenger) bypass inlet on the top of the block next to the alternator.

This to me seems to be overly complex.  However, even in this design, the degas tank is tied directly into the coolant that is circulating around through the bypass.... gaining temperature awaiting the thermostat to open.... and coolant never boiled out of the Saleen the 2 weeks I drove it stock.  Im guessing, even though I have adapted it to just be an inlet for my degas bottle inline on the lower radiator hose, it should still work.

Thoughts on this?  LOL    BTW, it seems that there are many different styles, flows and thermostat configurations for the 2005 Mustang (depending if you have a Saleen, GT, V6, Cobra, Shelby, Etc)  Confusing as all Heck (yes.... heck is what I will go with).
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: foxlincoln on May 26, 2015, 08:49:11 PM
.I was looking at the same radiator yesterday as it is a direct replacement and not overpriced as some of the others.But in my opinion I would throw the degas bottle and the lower T-stat housing in the trash can.I would put inline radiator filler neck in the upper hose and plug the drive side small outlet on the radiator.I would install overflow tank and plumb it to the filler neck.Use a closed style radiator cap.Check out this link  http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hre-3423?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKEAjws5CrBRD8ze702_2dyjYSJAAAJK9y20vYy_5gWAdSfZbZuWpIBBixnBe0DRFAdFX2gUocHxoCFujw_wcB
Just food for though.Remember Ford has all these systems in the same year,why would it work FE?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: foxlincoln on May 26, 2015, 08:54:39 PM
SOHC guys,what kind of thermostats did they use?What do you use?Temp?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 26, 2015, 10:06:51 PM
I think if you are running a thermostat in the upper neck. you could cut the upper hose and run something like this

http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?partnumber=RB-902-305&utm_source=google&utm_medium=nonpaid&utm_campaign=frooglePN&utm_term=902-305&crossref=902-305&gclid=CIzh5dj34MUCFZORHwodLFwAtg

Then, run a cap that allows recovery (not just pressure, but has the little recovery valve in the center to pull water back in) and run the small hose to the base of the degas tank.  It would then be a standard recovery system.

The bottom hose would then be a single hose with no cut or any extra parts.

However, I also think that with some research you can make what you have work, but to be honest I am not quite sure how a degas reservoir works versus a recovery/overflow reservoir.

I'll be happy to help research it, but not until I leave Disney :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on May 26, 2015, 11:24:14 PM
Jason, with your plans on the new rad. and fan setup I think you will be sufficient there and the current setup with hoses, etc. should be fine. The main reason for a degas tank is for the way the bodies and drivetrains are configured. With aerodynamics in mind, the radiator usually gets dropped lower in the front end to accomodate the body panels, etc. Since the radiator is mounted lower than other parts of the cooling system, the degas tank is employed to purge the air from the other parts of the system. These systems use a pressure only cap (1 way) and most times have a "puke tube" attatched to the top of the tank in case the coolant is too high, too much pressure built up, and so on. Not all have the "puke tube" though, some just release around the cap, I believe. If you want to go the other route, delete the degas tank, saleen t-stat housing, run a single hose from lower rad. outlet to driver block inlet adapter, and connect a small vent hose from the inline adapter to your new recirculating catch can, blocking off the hose port on top of rad. that used to go to degas tank. You can get the inline fill like Ross linked, add a seperate recirculating catch can and a pressure/vacuum cap such as the Ford Racing M-8100-A. This should fit the inline adapter Ross linked and is rated at 16lbs, which is better on an older car as long as the system can support the pressure because it helps increase the boiling point that much further. Almost all modern cars have 16 pound caps factory. This is same cap I have on my 66 with stock radiator. I also added a catch can and made it recirculating, although you can buy them already recirculating. I did this because if it were a catch can only, you would lose coolant when it gets hot and expands too much but don't have a way to draw it back in. This is a self-equilizing system, it takes and disperses as need be. It also doesn't matter if the recirculating catch can is higher or lower than rad., because it will draw coolant under vacuum and spit out under pressure. Mine is located on the side of my rad., about halfway up just for best fitment. I will try to get some pics tomorrow of my setup. Good luck whatever you decide. :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: mike7570 on May 27, 2015, 12:58:27 AM
Like Ross is thinking. ?

http://s435.photobucket.com/user/mike7570/media/engine_zpsoumrklsc.jpg.html?sort=3&o=5
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 27, 2015, 08:52:46 AM
Thanks Guys,

I thought about it some more, and I think I will stay with the degas bottle.  If, by some chance, when I run the engine and then shut it off (Like last time) and hot coolant starts to rise in the degas bottle and overflow, I will rethink it.

It does look however that I can just get a catch can to install where the degas bottle is now (If I end up needing to go that way) and have the cap that will suck coolant back into the system (Like the one shown in the last post), and also have the degas line that comes from the direct fit radiator.

I think that would work......  but Let me first try the set up I have coming.  The more I think about it, Saleen did not have a one way valve on the degas tank in their set up, so there really is no reason that hot coolant should be overflowing out of it in the new set up (running cooler)...  I am just guessing that it does so now because of my measly 1 row radiator and its probably running way to hot?

The other question I just thought of is....  If I added a one way inline valve from the bottom of the degas tank into the lower radiator hose.....  this would still allow air to purge from the radiator, it would still allow coolant to be sucked into the system if needed, but it would stop any coolant from coming back into the degas tank....  would this be troublesome?  If coolant is supposed to rise back into it (For what reason I don't know), the one way valve would stop it and pressure would build until coolant most likely would come out of the degas line in the top of the radiator and return to the degas bottle.  Not sure it would matter, but the degas line on a direct fit radiator pulls air from the radiator (burps it).  Would it matter if coolant came through there?

Ofcourse this is all just to talk about it.  In the end, I will try the Direct fit radiator (3 row with 2" core) and dual Spal fans (+3500 CFM's) and the degas tank as is.... and see what happens.  :0)

Thanks a ton again guys.  I definitely think the inline cap with the return type top would be the next step if this doesn't work.

Ross.....  Take it easy on the "teacups" while your visiting the magic kingdom  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on May 27, 2015, 09:15:32 AM
When you turn of a hot engine. The heat transfers to the water
that expands, that extra volym of the water must go somewere
The hot water is lighter than cold water so wen cirkulation stops
the hot water rises in to the degasbottle(expansion tank).
Probably the SOHC have more water in it than the stock Saleen
engine therefore there is not room enough in the degasbottle
In the begining there was a big tank in the top of the radiator
where the water expanded into and no pressure cap. think Model T
If you turn of a Model T, After a while it starts boiling in the top tank
in the radiator so you loose water through the overflow tube and
the radiatorcap
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 27, 2015, 12:14:54 PM
I agree.  I will add coolant as the car needs it, but I will not fill the degas bottle to the "Fill Line" marked on the bottle.  I will leave plenty of room for the coolant to expand and fill the bottle.  Hopefully It will always leave a little coolant in the bottle when it cools so I will always know if the engine needs a little more added.

I did notice that the fill line on the degas bottle is about 1/2 from the top.  Once that coolant gets hot, and the water pump stops circulating, it very easily overflows.  Good call.  I will just fill the degas bottle a little at a time until it doesn't seem to be sucking coolant into the system anymore (While car is running)...  as long as I have a little bit in the tank (just to make sure I'm topped off), that's when I will stop and put the cap back on.

New Radiator and fans all arrive Friday!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 28, 2015, 07:38:56 AM

Ross.....  Take it easy on the "teacups" while your visiting the magic kingdom  LOL

Over 3500 hours of flight time, lots of it yanking and banking in the early years, and these rides still make me sick  ::)

I will say though, the one that most feels like a fighter is the Rockin Rollercoaster, the way that one is designed is very comfortable for me, both positive and negative Gs feel very natural.  The rest, not so much, and the teacups, no f-in way, not even trying LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Barry_R on May 28, 2015, 07:45:40 AM

Ross.....  Take it easy on the "teacups" while your visiting the magic kingdom  LOL

Over 3500 hours of flight time, lots of it yanking and banking in the early years, and these rides still make me sick  ::)

I will say though, the one that most feels like a fighter is the Rockin Rollercoaster, the way that one is designed is very comfortable for me, both positive and negative Gs feel very natural.  The rest, not so much, and the teacups, no f-in way, not even trying LOL

Teacups at Disneyworld bring back some bad vibes...

I have three daughters - last time I was there they had me ride in those dang things 3 or 4 times in a row.  Lunch was not sitting well on the last go around.  With 3 little girls I did not care what a sunburned bald fat guy looked like while spinning around in a fiberglass china cup with princess pictures all around :)

Now - the "small world" ride or the "Tiki Room" should/could be banned by the Vienna conventions.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 28, 2015, 08:06:04 AM
HAHAHA  Good times.  Glad to hear you sound to be having fun  :0)

Disney not known for being very P. C Barry. Lol. Those rides have "tortured" us all!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 28, 2015, 02:07:26 PM
OK doing more reading (sometimes this gets dangerous)....  It is my understanding that the coolant in almost every engine needs to continually circulate within the block until it reaches operating temperature.  Once it reaches operating temp (about 180 F) then it is directed through the radiator for cooling.

My question is (still)  ....

I start the car.  The coolant in the radiator  (and the degas bottle since its tied into the lower hose) is pumped out of the lower radiator hose into the engine block and heads to absorb heat.  However, once the coolant in the radiator is drained by the pump (because the thermostat on the intake manifold is closed at this point....  the water pump is not pumping anything (nor is it continually circulating within the block).  It would seem that the water pump (at this point) is just running dry.  The coolant is sitting in the block (not circulating) and just heating up until the thermostat opens at 180 degrees.  At this time, the hot coolant runs down the radiator, and can be sucked up by the water pump again.

I keep reading about bypasses which allow the hot coolant to just keep re-circulating through the engine block (not just sitting stagnant heating up) until the thermostat opens.  I see that on FE water pumps, there seems to be a fitting on the back of the water pump (as well as one on the side/top).  I have both of these plugged with pipe plugs.  The one on the back appears to be a bypass fitting that is supposed to go to a nipple on the front of the FE intake manifold, but the cammer engine does not have this provision.  Does it need to be added?  LOL 

I also read that the drilling of a 3/16 hole in the thermostat itself is a kind of bypass (in addition to letting out any air pockets which has been stated earlier).  This doesn't seem right though because it would not recirculate hot coolant, but rather allow small amounts of coolant to go through the radiator and then down to the water pump.

When I look up videos of Cammer engines, I don't see anyone using a bypass hose off of the back of the water pump.  Maybe I am just not getting it  LOL  maybe the coolant doesn't need to circulate and is just fine getting hot "stationary" until the thermostat opens.  :0)

I now understand that the Ford 4.6 Modular did this through the funky thermostat housing and the coolant bypass fitting on the top of the block. 

Just seems weird that once the cool coolant is pumped from the radiator when the engine is started, that the water pump would just run dry until the thermostat opens....?

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 28, 2015, 02:54:19 PM
also thinking that the FE water pump has 2 "feet" that mount to the block/timing cover....  possible that it pumps coolant from passenger side bank to drivers side bank (or visa versa) while running until the coolant comes down through the radiator? 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on May 28, 2015, 03:14:40 PM
No the pump is not running dry beacuse the block is
allready full with water before you start the engine.
 So the pump cant pump any coolant from the rad.
actualy if you look in the radiator you can see that the level
go down slightly when you start the engine or when
you rev up the engine before the thermostat have
opened. So what the pump is doing is building
a slight pressure in the block. On a ordinary FE
you have the bypass so you got some amount
of cirkulation in the block.
They say you dont need the bypass but i havent
tried that myself.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 28, 2015, 03:34:10 PM
I gotcha.  Makes me feel better.  Thanks Heo
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on May 28, 2015, 07:49:22 PM
If there is a heater core still hooked up, the water pump-to-intake bypass hose can be eliminated because the heater core essentially  works as a large bypass. Since you don't have the heater core hooked up yet Jason, this doesn't apply. However, I believe you posted somwhere earlier about drilling the t-stat. If you drilled three holes in it iirc, then you should be fine with that. Also when you are burping air from the cooling system do you leave the cap off until you shut it off? What I like to do is when it looks like the degas tank is not taking anymore coolant, then put the cap on and let it bleed it self the rest of the way. Also with the cap on, the pressure from the cap will help to increase the boiling point until things get settled. I also like to run a bottle of Water Wetter, or in your case Royal Purple ice for extra peace of mind. It sounds like your new rad. and fan setup should do the trick though.  ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: foxlincoln on May 28, 2015, 08:26:29 PM
If you have ever taken a heater hose off and started the motor,you will see why bypass hose is 5/8 of an inch.It will drain an engine in seconds.Since no one has answered my question about weather they had T-stats or restrictor plate,I think they had a plate with about 1/2 inch hole  or bigger.Can't see Ford allowing a water pump to dead head.There has to be somebody out there with an answer to my question.I can see holes drilled in a t-stat to bleed out air,not to act as a bypass.So the engine has 2 bypass hose if you include the heater hose.Remember the bypass still works when the t-stat is open.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 28, 2015, 09:46:05 PM
Just a small update.  Since the fans and radiator are supposed to arrive tomorrow, I went ahead and started prepping.  Before I started, I removed the FAST ECU as well as the MSD box (just unplugged both from Harness).  Then I disconnected the battery to make sure when I removed the fan electrical it didnt spark of short.

Then I removed the Degas bottle from the shroud, as well as the power steering reservoir.  Then I removed the OEM Shroud top (the one I cut off the original fan assembly because it mounts the 2 reservoirs.  Finally I disconnected the upper radiator hose and the lower radiator hose.... and the P/S cooler line that bolts to the back of the radiator.

Disconnected the dual fans electrical and removed the dual fan/shroud assembly.... then out came the radiator.  If im not mistaken, I need the mounting hardware from the stock one to transfer to the new one.

I didnt really pay attention the first go around, but the stock radiator is sooooo thin (about 3/4" wide).  1 row radiator and the tanks on the sides are plastic! Yikes!

the new radiator is all aluminum, and about 5" wide.  Cant wait.

I also think before I installl the new setup, I want to retime the engine.  Its currently running beautifully at 20 degrees initial timing, but I am not able to turn the distributor back any further to get down to 13 degrees.

I am going to have to roll it back over to 13 degrees BTDC again and pull out the distributor and re-position the rotor.  Not such a big deal at this point as I now have experience doing this a few times.

I am not sure if I will have to run a new base tune with the new timing setting, but I think I will set it back up at 20 degrees again, but with room to move the distributor counterclockwise (thanks Ross  LOL).  this way I know the car will start right up and run at 20, and I can slowly adjust it back to 13 degrees and be able to check it with the timing light.

I saved all of the coolant from the radiator.  Its all still beautifully clean.... and in addition, there are 2 bottles of Royal Purple ICE coolant additive in there, so figured it would be great to fill the new system back up.

I have also gotten rid of the Saleen thermostat housing (yes, after all of that!) and fitted my inline fitting I made when I had the degas bottle linked into the top radiator hose.  Its actually perfect!, and in addition to the fit, It will allow me to reconnect the P/S pump belt.... and once again have power steering.

Another TidBit.... the squeal you hear in my videos is my belts.  I seem to have the incorrect size on there.  I actually need 7/16" wide belts, but am having trouble finding both in the exact sizes I need.  The alternator is 41" and the Power steering is 45.5"....  Ill keep looking, but the squeal is fine for now  LOL

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 28, 2015, 10:13:56 PM
If you have ever taken a heater hose off and started the motor,you will see why bypass hose is 5/8 of an inch.It will drain an engine in seconds.Since no one has answered my question about weather they had T-stats or restrictor plate,I think they had a plate with about 1/2 inch hole  or bigger.Can't see Ford allowing a water pump to dead head

Actually, I read somewhere that at 7500 RPM or so the factory Ford SOHC water pump would generate pressures up to 90 psi in the water jackets of the block and heads.  So I don't think they had a restrictor plate with a big hole in it.  In addition, the intake manifolds are cut with a recess where the water neck bolts on, that fits a standard thermostat.  My guess would be that Ford used a modified thermostat, but I have never taken apart an original SOHC intake with water neck, so I don't know for sure what was used.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on May 29, 2015, 07:10:33 AM
Another TidBit.... the squeal you hear in my videos is my belts.  I seem to have the incorrect size on there.  I actually need 7/16" wide belts, but am having trouble finding both in the exact sizes I need.  The alternator is 41" and the Power steering is 45.5"....  Ill keep looking, but the squeal is fine for now  LOL

Rub a bar of soap on the belts and it will cure the squeal.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 29, 2015, 08:39:52 AM
Soap it is! (For now)  LOL  Tracking packages....  radiator and fans are out for delivery.  I have to say again, I am super surprised at the size of the OEM radiator for the Saleen.  The thing literally looks to be as wide as the width of a piece of bread.  Stock Sallen is supposed to have close to 300 HP (almost) stock.  With a radiator like that, the stock fan must have been a monster to suck out heat! (It was a spal- like curved blade fan though)

Also, just to keep everyone in the loop (and at this point I trust this forum more than any tech support) I called FAST back.  I took notes of what the handheld values were in my engine idle video and went over them with the tech (William).  He said that all the values appear as they should at idle.  Perfect!!!

I also asked him about the cracking of the throttle blades (manually) so that the car start at the turn of the key.  I did this and it worked perfectly, but then after the warm up cycle, it has me manually close the throttle blades a little to get the A/F mixture exactly on target....  Well this unfortunately un-does what I did to get the car to start up without touching the gas pedal.

William explained again that its because I am using a Dual Quad setup....  computer knows I have 2 throttle bodies, but doesn't have the programming to deal with 2 (Um.....  R & D didn't work on this before they put it out to Market?  LOL  )

Anyway, He said I can keep screwing with it to get it close, or its completely fine to tap the throttle upon cranking (Since its running beautifully currently).

Also, I explained to him I am currently idling at 20 degrees BTDC and need to get that down to 12- 13 degrees.....  He explained I would be better off starting from scratch on a new base tune.  Luckily I wont have to adjust the throttle blades that much.... and I should be good to go!

Just to keep everyone in the LOOP  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 29, 2015, 12:21:58 PM
I think I'd probably leave the blades open and see if the ECM fixes the a/f ratio  over time, it will adjust a/f to get it to your point, you simply haven't run it long enough IMHO.

A second option would be experimenting with opening both TBs slightly, or just the front, or just the back, and seeing if it behaves differently. 

Honestly though I think you are trying to adjust too soon, if its close, the computer will adjust and look for what makes things approach the desired mixture, then it will write to the base file and try again, and again, and again.

That's the hole idea of learning, if you try to change things whenever it sees something out of range, then the learning function may as well be turned off because it will never get there and you then just have an electronic non-adjusting carburetor.

Best to get it starting well IMHO and then drive it all over town and see what it does.  The goal really should be to stop touching mechanical things and adjust using the hand held (after it is running cool and you have some miles on it).

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 29, 2015, 01:30:07 PM
Hey Ross.  That's a good idea.  The Tech actually said even though I have a dual quad, there is a "Primary" throttle body (it actually is the one in the front of my engine and has a vent hole in the top).... and then there is the one I added (which just uses FAST supplied jumper harnesses to tie into all 4 injectors 1 to 1, 2 to 2, and so on.  When I start a new tune (at 13 degrees BTDC, I will crack them open so manually so that the engine starts by just turning the key....  and like you said, let the computer learn.

The other option (Possibly) is to crack the back secondary throttle body open more so that the car starts without touching the throttle.  The TPS and MAP (I believe) are only hooked up to the primary throttle body.  So when I calibrate the TPS, I believe the sensor its learning from is only on the primary Throttle body.  I will have to look at that when I get home. 

Thing is, when I crack the throttle blades enough to allow the engine to start up without touching the throttle, its at a point where it idles at like 2500 RPM.....  I am guessing that it will slowly learn to bring down the RPM to my 1000 I programmed in while at that same time trying to get the correct A/F mixture, but in the past few weeks, that was enough to make the car overheat before it figured it out.  Hopefully with the new radiator and fans, I can let it keep idling like that until it comes down on its own.

I think my intake manifold is a dual plane though, so will having the back throttle bodies open more than the front affect the A/F ratio on 4 of the cylinders (More air to those 4?)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 29, 2015, 02:09:12 PM
Well, first, expect that when it is working correctly it will always idle high for a moment and settle.  I do not know of any EFI controller that doesn't do that, hot or cold.  Basically it's a stepper motor for the IAC and after it fires, it eases it down, some are programmable like my EEC-IV but others just do what the company thinks will work for all. 

Honestly its one thing I don't like about EFI, if you want good idle control, most of them don't return to idle like a carb, they ave a little hang time at the bottom

Second, as far as the throttle body and leaning, it really doesn't matter in terms of leaning cylinders nor the TPS and honestly, I think I'd try the secondary TB.  No matter which set of blades you open, some cylinders will be leaner than others, the O2 sensor only looks at the combined mess and adjusts all injectors, so no matter where you add air, it's got variance

The thing to remember though is that extra air is only at idle, as soon as the TPS shows a change, it uses a different table and adjusts accordingly, so a second reason it just doesn't matter

Your idea of the second TB being different is correct, the primary TB will have the TPS, remember, a TPS is based on two voltages, idle and wide open, everything in between that is a percentage of change.  That's why when you calibrate the TPS it just asks for those two figures.  it doesn't care where it is, it just wants to know where closed throttle and open is and then it looks for the difference between those two points.

Therefore, the nice thing about trying the secondary TB is that it will add air without messing up your closed throttle TPS setting and therefore also not require a TPS recalibration with each change.

The MAP is far less critical it just needs manifold vacuum, all it does is judge load after it sees where the TPS is.  TPS with no vacuum, means it's time for the engine to really work, more TPS with some vacuum, still in cruise just high RPM, it's an input to allow it to make a decision

Again though, you are trying to make the car do something without understanding the programming (not your fault FAST hasn't really told us, unlike the more advanced controllers) and without giving it a chance to do its own magic.

Please realize this, change ANYTHING and learning is invalid.  This is not a carb, in this case, you get close and it tweaks from there over time and in varying conditions.  The ECM is looking for cause and effect with trends, when you change a mechanical or timing adjustment etc, what it learned ca be irrelevant and it needs to start over, or at least re-tweak

I know I am being a broken record, but I am hoping to get you to think differently.  I still think like you feel you need to fix something.  All you need to do is get it on the road at this point.  You still haven't got volume and heat through the exhaust to clean up the mufflers, and you still haven't given it any road time to learn. 

We are still at "get it to run cool and then drive it"  the first bite of the elephant, we haven't got by that yet.  I promise, things will get better fast once we can get some road time on it.  We may even have you tweak EFI stuff, but even the engine temps will be different soon, so again, any tweaking or learning is useless now.

If I were in the room, I'd say, stop touching the distributor, stop touching the TBs, and finish the cooling system.  If you don't have what you need to do that, take a nap, or come to Disney and drink some whiskey with me until you do have the parts

One last comment on edit - When coolant temp (temp sensor), idle vacuum (MAP), and throttle positions (TPS) are constant and repeatable to the computer and the car reaches temp AND the car experiences normal use, the computer will start learning and adjusting it's tables based on O2 sensor output and the programming you requested at start up. 

Until you get those things in italics to be stable and then you actually drive the car, you are chasing your tail.  Note the simplicity, stable temp, repeatable idle conditions, and normal use. If you REALLY need to do something, find some belts :)

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 29, 2015, 03:41:44 PM
HHAHA  Thanks Ross.  I most definitely am going to focus on Cooling.  I understand its going to be trial and error for a while... and like you said, its about correcting as I go one item at a time....until there are no more items.

I will post tonight after I get the new radiator, shroud, fans installed and wired, and coolant topped back off.  :0)  I definitely think I have a better understanding of this whole thing (somewhat) being able to talk through it each and every time  LOL  In a way, I am like the FAST ECU....  I may need to hear it a few times over and over, but its all being used to build a knowledge base  :0)

Thanks again!!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: foxlincoln on May 29, 2015, 07:44:10 PM
Found this link to a mecum auction of  427 sohc stang.It has a picture of the engine with a added on thermostat housing  and hose from the manifold to housing.I wonder if this was common setup. It looks like a bypass hose has been added to the water pump and runs to the housing.                   https://www.mecum.com/lot-detail/WA0615-215133/0/1965-Ford-Mustang-A/FX-Holman-Moody/      Cool car
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on May 29, 2015, 08:35:41 PM
I couldn't quite see the hose from the water pump to housing, but looks similar to Jay's setup here- http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=23.0.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 29, 2015, 08:42:11 PM
Hey newbie. I think that was added due to the fuel injection manifold. They dont have the waterneck ( thermostat) that other intake manifolds have. Beautiful car. Thanks for posting it

In other news, radiator and fans were waiting for me when i got home. Radiator is about 2.5 thicker than the stock. Fans are a little larger in circumference than the other 2 electric fans. This means they cover the 2 cutouts in the shroud , but also overhand the shroud on the sides 1" on each side. If its a huge deal, i am sure I can seal it up somehow, but ill wait and see

Everything fits, however the fan motors are larger, and now there is no chance of power steering because the belt had to come off for the fans to fit. No biggie i guess

Everything back in and installed. Coolant added back in. Just need to hook up the fans electrical tomorrow and the reset the timing.  Then test!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 30, 2015, 10:56:50 AM
Looking forward to the results with the new fans and radiator!

Going to have to figure out something with the PS, any chance you can move the rad forward or offset the fans?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 30, 2015, 12:19:42 PM
Easier if I could use the old electric fans with new radiator?  Then belt would fit. LOL

Otherwise its cutting and welding to move radiator forward. Lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 30, 2015, 12:45:09 PM
Just finihed up wiring in the fans. Also, set the timing to 13 degrees with the rotor pointing directly at plug #1. I moved the distributor over a fer gears where I can now retard the timing ( clockwise) if needed. Nothing left to do now but try and start it again
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Barry_R on May 30, 2015, 01:23:20 PM
Easier if I could use the old electric fans with new radiator?  Then belt would fit. LOL

Otherwise its cutting and welding to move radiator forward. Lol

Could you do one of each?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 30, 2015, 04:29:43 PM
Hey Barry,  I could, and the power steering would fit (as long as I put the small fan in front of the PS pump, but then I am not sure it will cool as needed....  I'll explain:

So got back from Lunch, and decided to get right to it.  Just to recap, the fans I wired up to the relay just like the other 2 (More to come on this).  I have the timing set to 13 degrees BTDC and everything snugged down.  Pushed the car out into the driveway (kind of a nice breeze today but still about 90 degrees).

Started over with a fresh tune on the handheld....  Cranked it over (had to pop the gas pedal once to get it to fire)...  once it was running, I ran to the front of the car and used the timing light.  I was a little off on the timing (like 9 or 10 Degrees BTDC so with a small clockwise turn, I was sitting exactly on 13....  car was idling about 1000 to 950 as usual (sometimes it dips down to 700 or so, but I assume this is the computer trying different things, because it always comes right back to the 1000).  AF ratio was right about 13.5 as usual at Idle, and I sat waiting for the temperature to rise... and the thermostat to open to see if I needed to add more coolant.

At 190, the fans again did not come on and it was rising.  I looked at the fuse on the power wire to the relay (20 amp) and it was blown!  I shut the car off....  got a 30 amp fuse.... flipped the toggle for the EFI (because the coolant temp was still above 190, and the 30 AMP fuse blew!  So last resort... directions I found online (not included with fans)...  each fan pullls about 25 amps with full load.  I had these fans wired in together like the smaller 2.  Dont make a 40 amp fuse in the fuse type I have, so I did a little quick thinking and wired one fan to the relay (to come on at 190 degrees) and I wired the other fan to a toggle switch.

Started the car again after a little cool down period and flipped the toggle on (so one fan running)....  wow they suck a lit of air!  I could feel it just looking down into the front of the engine.  Then I sat and waited for the temp to do bad things....  Every now and again, I would see some bubbles in the degas tank and put more 50/50 coolant in there.  Finallly, I had the coolant filled just so I could see there was a tiny bit at the bottom, meaning the degas tie in line to the lower radiator hose was full, but the degas tank was empty (I am curious about the expansion).  Engine ran for about 10 minutes in the driveway, in 90 degree heat....  after 10 minutes, the fan fan controlled by the relay kicked on.  Temperature sat at 192 for a few minutes, then to 195 for a few minutes, and then to 202 for a while.  I wasnt sure how high it would go, but it was definately not moving up into the 220 - 255 range with the one row radiator.

Finally, almost no smoke coming from tailpipe at all,  I revved the engine once, and some sooty stuff came out, but as soon as it went back to idle, no smoke.

Lastly, I pulled it back into the garage running (holy crap it feels like it wants to GO!)  honestly, a little scary.

Shut off the engine, but left the one toggle fan on.....  and wanted to see how full the expansion tank would go.  If you remember, There was almost no coolant in the degas tank while the car was running, but you could see there was some in the hose at the bottom.  If I would have added more while running, it would have sucked it down, but I didnt.

When the car was shut off (with the toggle fan still running on the new radiator, the degas tank filled back up to the half way full mark!  Thats a lot of expansion!!!!  This is why I stopped adding coolant when It was running....  If I kept going, most likely It would overflow when I shut it off.  Dont know about this.

Lastly, I have that Faux radiator shroud (just the top of the OEM one) because it holds the degas tank and the PS reservoir....  this actually doenst leave much room for the hot air to escape after the fans are pulling it from the radiator.  I may try to make 3 little aluminum brackets to hold the tanks, and remove that shroud top.... to free up some space for hot air to escape.

Everything is actually as it should be, and I guess the next step is to drive the car and see if it gets cooler or hotter????
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Barry_R on May 30, 2015, 05:20:34 PM
Told ya - each Spal fan requires a separate relay.  They are way better than any other fan I have tried - move a flat ton of air, but work requires power and they soak up a bunch of amps doing it.

On my car I have one wired so its on whenever I have the water pump spinning.  The other is on a temperature relay.  If your's behaves similar I'd wager the temperature controlled one will rarely come on once you get the tune up sorted and the engine has some run time on it.  I would consider using the smaller fan as the temperature controlled unit since its secondary - but first lets get you driving.

Sounds like you're getting really close now.   8)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 30, 2015, 07:31:55 PM
I like the idea of one small, one big fan to allow the use of the PS.  I am not sure I'd have one run all the time, not really a need to have it running when the engine is below temp, especially with EFI. The sooner it gets to closed loop, the better, but it is an option. On the other hand, having one fed live with a switch can help between rounds by leaving it on to cool, but IMHO, not beneficial for a street car, just another thing to kill the battery. 

Another good idea is to make sure they come on with the a/c, it really helps compressor temp.  In my car, I run a clutch fan, but I have temp controlled dual electric fans as a backup on the condenser, but more importantly they come on with the a/c.  Keeps the a/c cold in stop and go traffic and more importantly keeps pressure down for the compressor. FWIW, my two fans are fed to a hot thermostatic switch in the radiator, they will run when I shut it down like a new car, but when it cools, they shut off, so no need for me to remember.

I do like what I am hearing on the degas bottle, sounds like you have it working well.  Next time you fire it up, while it's cold, squeeze all the high hoses to try to burp any air bubbles out, Ford even states that in their procedures if not using a power fill.  After a few times squeezing and a few heat cycles, mark cold and hot on the bottle and you are done.

BTW, I am not sure you need to worry about airflow across the top of the radiator, the goal is to get it moving down as much as you can.  Once you get moving the front air dam causes a low pressure area that sucks it to the ground.  It is true that some air flow above helps keep things cool, but it would be better to get some air flow or radiant heat out of the hood if required, with a scoop or louvers.  (You may not need it though, read below)

Way back machine......remember the early posts telling you to coat the headers?  Don't forget, that is going to be a BIG win for under hood heat and overall idle engine temp.  So if the car runs well, before you start fixing it again, pull the headers and get them coated, it may make all the difference in the world.  This was a MUST DO, and still is :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 30, 2015, 08:04:49 PM
I guess what worries me (and maybe its nothing), is that even with both fans on, the temperature still creeps up....  not down.  I would have thought as soon as the 2nd fan kicked on, while sitting in the driveway, that it would start going back down so that the fan can shut off.

My father has a Chevy Silverado (like 2006 or something) and its normal operating temp is like 220 degrees.  What should my engine temperature be (and more importantly what temperature should it not go above?>)

Also, I have not forgotten the power coating.  I just wanted to get the last few "bites" done beforehand.  I feel confident now as the initial timing is 13 degrees, computer went through its startup program and I was able to get the idle airflow on target, the new thick radiator with 2 "jumbo" spal fans,  smoke has almost stopped completely coming from tailpipe, and idles at 1000 RPM.

I understand from reading your guys posts that the car will become a lot more reliable as I drive it on the streets and highways, but just wanted to question the safe and normal temps because I will have someone sitting in the passenger seat monitoring the handheld and I want to know at what temps I can keep driving and at what temp I should pull over and shut it off (if it happens).

:0)  P.S., I have not forgotten in all the excitement that I need to drain the oil again and cut open the oil filter.  I will probably do this in the next few days and post pictures of the filament within the filter.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 30, 2015, 08:43:27 PM
OK, so 225 won't hurt anything to answer that question, heck even 230.  Water boils at 212 at standard temp, standard pressure, you added antifreeze and pressure, so it won't boil until WAYYYY over that. 

Next, the engine will loosen up and generate less heat as you run it, so that will help coolant temp (which is already just fine) as well as having infinitely more airflow as you drive

Third, you can advance initial timing to 16 or so later (if you need it) and just adjust your total once the engine loosens up, that will also cool more it at idle.  I'd still ask Jay what he recommends for total.

Fourth, the coating will significantly change underhood temps which will make every other part under there cooler than it is now

See where we are going, everything WILL get better once you get some time on it and let it talk to you

Finally, then you can see what it does sitting there idling all day, but honestly, it sounds like yours is doing fine for a fresh tight engine. 

I would just recheck all your clamps after the recent heat cycle, check the oil level, and see what it does.  As far as a passenger, I don't even think you need it, just have a cell phone and go 5 miles, then go 10, then 20, etc.  I think the car is going to do what it needs to now.

You are a very sharp guy, but you cannot predict what it will do, you have everything where it should be, now let the car talk to you on the road. If it overheats at speed, you have a radiator issue, if it overheats at stoplights, you adjust the things above.

Worst thing, if it dies....pull over, call home and have someone come get you.  Although I doubt that will happen.

Time to get froggy and jump buddy :)  Bigger circles from home if you have to, and choose streets based on places to park and less traffic (if possible in Florida)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 30, 2015, 08:52:51 PM
Will Do Ross.

Also, I wanted to mention....  When I shut the car off from the 30 minute idle session, Hot coolant came back up into the degas bottle from empty to about half way full....  I just went back in the garage to take a look and it is empty again.  I wonder how I can tell when I have enough coolant?  I realize I went from a 1 row radiator to a 3 row, so there will be more coolant needed to make up the difference, but it stinks that I can not see an actual level to ensure its full.

I would like to see the hot coolant level make the level rise in the degas bottle, and then when it cools off all the way, to still see some level of coolant in the bottle.  Unfortunately, this does not seem possible.

Ill go for a ride soon a mile or 2 from the house and report back  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 30, 2015, 08:59:28 PM
Here is what I would try

Fire the car with the degas bottle cover off and let it run until the thermostat opens and let the water get hot and expand, don't rev it, just let it idle.

Once its to temp and fills the bottle, top it off to the original warm mark and put the cap on.  Then don't worry about it. it's going to expand when hot, then cool again and drop.

Second, now is the time to think about what will keep you from getting home

1 - Air in tires
2 - Oil level
3 - Tranny oil level
4 - Rear axle gear oil level
5 - Brake fluid
6 - Coolant level
7 - Is it charging?
8 - Belts tight
9 - Clamps tight
10 - Check all fuel lines

If all of those are good, drive it, you'll make it home. 

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 30, 2015, 11:13:46 PM
Hopefully tomorrow. Just read online that large ups and downs in the degas bottle is almost definitely air pockets on the system somewhere. Lol. Going to be a few cycles of adding coolant. Overflows. And burping. Lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on May 31, 2015, 01:39:10 AM
Jason -

220 is not at all unreasonable for your application.  At Ford I did a lot of hot weather testing in Arizona during 115 degree summer days.  At sustained heavy loads we would see 250+ coolant temps, and the cars did fine.  These were stock Ford automobiles!  With a good 15 lb cap you should be comfortable at 220.  Just keep an eye on it.  The more important temperature is your oil.  Try to keep that at 250 or better to guard against oxidation and viscosity breakdown.

Ross is correct that coating the headers will help a lot with heat rejection, since a lot more of that thermal energy will now be directed out the exhaust.  A few degrees cooler on the engine side of the radiator makes a huge difference.

You should give yourself a pat on the back.  It's just little issues to sort now on a super impressive project :D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 31, 2015, 08:45:53 AM
Hopefully tomorrow. Just read online that large ups and downs in the degas bottle is almost definitely air pockets on the system somewhere. Lol. Going to be a few cycles of adding coolant. Overflows. And burping. Lol

First, I agree with Bill, you are doing well, keep it up!

I would expect that the air will work it's way out, which adds more coolant and reduces small hot spots, so that can only be better too.  It may take a few runs here and there, cool and refill, but that is what the degas bottle is for.

Just a hunch, but I think I would try to make sure the degas tube you made is pointing up to catch bubbles as they pass along the top of the hose during circulation

Just a WAG, but seems like it would be logical
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 31, 2015, 09:10:19 AM
Thanks Ross. I think the air bubbles are not supposed to make it past the radiator. There is a secondary tube that runs from the drivers side of the radiator ( cross flow design) which is supposed to feed air to the degas bottle and the coolant in the bottle replaces the "area" of air removed

I will keep at it:-).
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on May 31, 2015, 09:45:18 AM
We're all still reading along Jason.
Very impressive.
You're going to have the only one of its kind.
Very nice out of box thinking.
Very nice help from our fellows.
Thumbs up.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 31, 2015, 10:22:06 AM
I love this forum. Great people all around!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: foxlincoln on May 31, 2015, 02:59:52 PM
  Your gonna think I am beating a dead horse about having a bypass.Well here it goes a bypass allows an engine to circulate coolant to warm up at an even pace,if the coolant sat dead in the engine you would have a lot hot spots and how would the hot coolant get to the thermostat? All bypass hose I  have seen go to the thermostat housing.An alum engine needs to warm up evenly.Ford designed systems to fit the engine,as the 96-01 Cobra 4.6 has a system close to what you have.If you make mods to the system they say DO NOT remove the bypass hose.That hose is the one you stated that you put an expansion plug in the thermostat housing.To install in your system you would have to install a hose from that plugged nipple to the upper radiator hose.On my Cobra that hose is about 1 inch in diameter.Water is always flowing,open or closed thermostat.if you take into account your upper hose there are actually a total of 5 hoses in that area of the cooling system the t-stat housing has 4 hoses attached to it. the "hot" side of t-stat has total of 2: one large but short hose going to the water pump inlet, also has one long medium diameter vertical hose going up to the middle part of the crossover tube or in your case the upper hose. "cold" side of the t-stat has total of 2: one large but short hose going to the lower radiator neck. also has one much smaller diameter hose going to the bottom of the recovery tank.I am really trying to help.You have soooo much time and money invested,hate to see problems like this slow you down.A lot of people would have given up by now,your almost there.Get it right and DRIVE IT LIKE STOLE IT!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: foxlincoln on May 31, 2015, 03:00:53 PM
By the way my name is Terry.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 31, 2015, 08:01:58 PM
Thanks terry. Unfortunately i was trying to adapt a bypass fitting to the cammer engine. The cammer engine does not have a cross over like the modular engines. I took out the bypass saleen thermostat fitting and just T'd into the lower radiator hose for the degas tank.

T should work because the degas tank has a 16 psi cap just like a radiator

If I wanted it to constantly circulate, i would have to tap the intake manifold into a water jacket and run a makeshift "bypass hose" to the nipple on the water pump that was intended for the heater core return

Will try my setup as is for a while and then if it doesnt work, consider something new

Thanks Terry
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: foxlincoln on May 31, 2015, 09:14:49 PM
You would have to tee into the upper radiator hose.The bypass hose on your thermostat housing  is very large,I think its 1 inch diameter.This is what size Ford has determined the bypass should be for a DOHC 4.6 NOT a couple of 3/16 holes in the thermostat.PICTURE THIS.Motor running - thermostat closed water pump turning - the impeller in the pump wants to move water but can't - the 3/16 holes can't flow enough coolant - the impeller churns the coolant  but it won' t move, this can cause erosion of the impeller - coolant does not move in the block causing heat to build in some areas and remain cool in other areas - it takes longer for the hot coolant to reach the thermostat If the t-stat is in the lower housing it would never see any hot coolant without the bypass hose to bring it .If the t-stat is in the manifold it would get hot coolant but would take a long time.By the time hot coolant opens the thermostat the coolant in other parts of the block is well past the boiling point.The only way to run without a bypass  is to gut the thermostat so coolant is always circulating.Iron blocks can take uneven heating, aluminum can't.Please think about this.The bypass of coolant has to happen to allow the the engine to warm up evenly.Gut the thermostat if you are going to run without bypass.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 31, 2015, 09:31:20 PM
I think your understanding of the concept is accurate, but I am not sure the engine needs a 5/8 hose bypass.

If it had to do serious work with the thermostat closed, maybe, but it does have a relief now with the drilled hole that will allow fluid to move, and therefore heat to move with the fluid, not only radiating through the water.  That size hole, although not as big as stock, will allow a lot of water to flow

I have seen a lot of BBCs run with theirs blocked, I don't like it, but seen enough last a long time on the street to know it won't hurt the motor.

Certainly not saying you are wrong, but the water won't go stagnant in there, matter of fact its amazing what even a 1/8 hole will move with pump pressure behind it

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on May 31, 2015, 09:31:28 PM

You're going to have the only one of its kind.


Actually there was an SN197 ('04-'09) Mustang stuffed with an SOHC back when they were still new. I can't remember exactly, but I think it may have been a friend of Wayne Jeffers who built it. But since I don't recall it being a Saleen, technically it would still be 1 of 1 :)  As I recall, there were lots of trials and tribulations with that build also, so you're not alone, Jason.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 31, 2015, 10:27:28 PM
Hey Doug. You are correct. It was built by "Antons hot Rod Shop". I have actually been in contact with the builder for some tech tips. He actually ran carbs. Lol. But retained the A/C and the original alternator. Made a custom bracket for the front of the engine for all of that. Also cut and moved the radiator mounts forward 1" about in order to use stock fan and shroud.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on May 31, 2015, 10:56:40 PM
Here is another similar swap with a Boss. http://www.mustangandfords.com/featured-vehicles/1502-2005-ford-mustang-gt-packin-heat/ I remember reading an article on this one in the magazine. It is pretty cool too. Also, there are a few vids of this one on youtube if you search for it. Both engine swaps are equally fascinating.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on June 01, 2015, 09:38:28 AM
Both engine swaps are equally fascinating.
Indeed
Makes me want to get to my mustang quicker.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: TimeWarpF100 on June 01, 2015, 04:43:25 PM
have not seen it mentioned but the Kaase Boss 9 2007 Must GT was way cool. Think it ended up bringing only 70k. I almost bought it.

It made just shy of 1000hp

http://www.jonkaaseracingengines.com/html/kaase_boss_nine_589_c_i__2008_gt_mustang.html
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 01, 2015, 06:48:10 PM
Hey guys. In order to take the car for a drive ( more importantly close the hood) i am going to need to move those toggle switches inside the car. After thinking on it further, really dont want to drill holes in the dash, so did a little "google-ing" and found this panel below. It fits down into the center console where the cup holders are and also has a place for 1 gauge. Going to add oil temperature there. Also was able to contact the company, and he is going to set it up for my toggle switches i have already     ( airplane toggles). And also engrave each spot for me. One will be fan, one will be ignition and 1 will be ECU

When i get it , ill just put my toggles in the 3 holes he made for me
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/9DD03AC6-B815-4CEE-936E-3EEE06F8008C_zps6dvuq108.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/9DD03AC6-B815-4CEE-936E-3EEE06F8008C_zps6dvuq108.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on June 01, 2015, 07:28:06 PM
Looks like a nice setup there. Good luck with the test drive, you sure have earned it!  ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 03, 2015, 05:58:36 PM
Small update since toggle switch panel arrives tomorrow. I decided to install the spark plug tube rubber covers. These are nice pieces!  Unfortunately I wrecked 1, so a replacement is on the way. Below is the pictures:

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/6C0E9F33-442A-4E3F-BD5F-7F7629683CAB_zpsgrg4e2ux.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/6C0E9F33-442A-4E3F-BD5F-7F7629683CAB_zpsgrg4e2ux.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/2BB5CDAD-CB3F-43F1-91F4-B08582DA1140_zpsmmqboyhb.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/2BB5CDAD-CB3F-43F1-91F4-B08582DA1140_zpsmmqboyhb.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 05, 2015, 08:12:25 AM
Hey Guys.  I have not forgotten ......  I have not driven the car yet so nothing to report.  The thing is, I have no one to come pick me up if I break down.  I obviously need to take the car out of the neighborhood (15 MPH) and since that is further than pushing it home a few street by myself, I have to wait until Family can come down to assist.  They live about 2 hours north, so I am waiting for them to come down so we can take the car up out into the "wild". 

I would try by myself, but if I left the car to call for a flatbed to come pick me up......  those of you who have been in Ft Lauderdale or south to Miami recently know that its no longer a "Nice" place....  I would loose all 4 wheels (at the very least).  When my father and brother come down, I will have one monitoring the handheld while I drive (watching the coolant temp as well as the injector load % to make sure it never gets to 100% (I believe the fuel pressure regulator will need an adjustment if it does).....  and my brother can take the video  LOL


Also, I got my toggle switch panel yesterday from TN.  Its a nice piece, engraved with each toggle function (ECU, Ignition, Fan), and better yet, it comes with a hole for (1) 2-1/16" gauge.  Since we spoke about Oil temperature earlier, I picked up an oil temp gauge with the appropriate sender.  Since my rear sump oil pan as a front oil plug and a rear oil plug for draining oil, I will use the front plug to screw in the sender.

I wanted to ask what the oil temperature should be?  I read online that it roughly is about what the coolant temperature is, but wasn't sure.  What temperature range is good?
Keep you posted.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 05, 2015, 02:30:16 PM
Also did a little more research on the Power steering / Fan clearance issue.  There have been quite a few people who given the size of turbo's they cram into Mustangs....find themselves looking for more room up front.  From what it seems (the easiest of all the methods I saw, you can just cut of 2 mounting tabs that face the front of the car on the radiator support cross member.  Then extend them a few inches and paint them black again (to avoid corrosion) after you re-weld them back onto the cross member.  this will allow the top of the radiator to remain where it has always been, but move the bottom of the radiator forward toward the front of the car a few inches. (Sort of like how the radiator sits in a Shelby Dayton coupe).  This will allow you to have more room for the fan motors as well as re-install the P/S belt so I will have power steering.

This will be later down the line once I have everything where I want it.... and get bored and start tinkering again.  But at the very least, it would seem like a fairly easy remedy to this issue without a lot of chopping and grafting!

I love the internet!  LOL

In other news, father is heading down on Sunday to take a ride in the car.  This will be the maiden voyage, but at least I will have someone to monitor the computer as well as someone to watch the car (or tow me back with his truck) if need be!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 06, 2015, 09:48:08 AM
Oil temp is generally 10-20 degrees or so above water temp, and generally above 200 consistently.  It doesn't get high unless you work it usually

FWIW my 2013 diesel ran at 195 degrees water temp, 205-208 oil temp for 1400 miles over the past three days at 70-75 mph on cruise with 8000 lbs on the bumper (gross weight just under 16K) :)  FL to NE, never let it slow down!   12-14 mpg for the whole trip, got to love the new diesels

BTW, chicken......the same Visa in your pocket will hire a roll back to get you home for under 100 bucks :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on June 06, 2015, 10:32:07 AM
BTW, chicken......the same Visa in your pocket will hire a roll back to get you home for under 100 bucks :)

Max man points if you go for a test spin sans cell.  ::)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 06, 2015, 08:41:36 PM
Dad cancelled for tomorrow, so im going out tomorrow by myself!!!  Hopefully all will be good. I spent the whole day today running the wiring into the car ( neatly) so my toggle panel is all set and ready. Also moved the MSD bos to drivers side near brake booster. Now I can close the hood as well as shut the car off quickly with the toggles from inside the car

I head out tomorrow afternoon on my maiden voyage!!!!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: mb198 on June 07, 2015, 08:28:26 AM
For the past few days I've gone back and read this thread from the beginning. Fascinating.

Thanks for logging it all,

Mark
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 07, 2015, 09:05:53 AM
Good luck Jason!

Small ride around the block, come home, shut it down, make sure it restarts on its own.  Watch the gauges more than the EFI, when you get home look for hanging wires, leaks, etc

A little farther circle, come home again, shut it down.  Try to start it it hot and let it cool and do it again.  If it starts both times, go for a good run, but don't beat it, watch the temp and oil pressure and if it runs decent, don't worry about the EFI. 

If it has oil pressure, stays cool, and restarts every time, it'll get home.  These runs are about engine reliability, temp and oil, NOT final tuning, let the EFI just do its thing if it runs decent

FWIW, when I built my 489 and converted to the TKO-600, I broke in the cam on Friday afternoon, and Sat AM I drove from Yorktown, VA to Danville, VA (220 miles) in the fog and rain to the Shelby meet there.  ZERO road time, but admittedly it was just an engine and tranny build, wedge to boot not SOHC, so not as complicated as yours.

However, after approx 450 miles after returning that night, that engine hasn't missed a beat.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 07, 2015, 01:58:21 PM
After some issues this morning starting it, i reset the ecu and did a new tune. For some reason, it kept going from 500 rpm to 3000 rpm. After 10 minutes of this, obviously it overheated sitting still in the driveway. 250 degrees and overflowing from degas tank. Went out for a few hours and decided to retry. This time, did a fresh tune, and it was idling at 1000. Decided to drive around the block. Backed out of driveway, put it in first, and got 4 houses down before it shut off. Neighbor helped me turn it around and pish it home.... Where I saw that i left my alternator belt in 3 pieces in the driveway. No idea how 3 pieces. Battery dead now, so im guessing thats why I stalled out 4 houses down?

Either way, a monster even in 1st gear ( for the 1 minute i was driving). Makes the saleen 4.6 modular feel like the 2 ltr subaru!  Lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 07, 2015, 02:30:52 PM
Sorry to hear it, but luckily it was close.

Wasn't the belt too narrow for the pulleys?  Also be sure to look at pulley alignment, it has to be right.  Sometimes its not easy to see, when you get the belt back on look how it exits each pulley, it can help you see misalignment.  You often need to look at it from many angles and crane your neck around to see a misalignment

Do you have any indication of voltage or amps in the car (other than the FAST display)?  Seems like the gauges would have told you that you spit a belt.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 07, 2015, 03:09:30 PM
Funny because i was noticing that the squeal was gone when I started it this time..... But it was because the belt was already gone. Lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 07, 2015, 06:38:23 PM
Belt didnt snap. I actually found the small adjustment bolt for the alternator in the driveway. Looks like it came loose, and then the belt came loose and slipped off the pulleys. Kept running, so melted pieces off ( what i found in the driveway). So ill get the correct belt and reinstall. See whats what.....anyone interested in buying this car?  Selling my house and moving back up north, and will not have a garage. :-(
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on June 07, 2015, 06:46:06 PM
See whats what.....anyone interested in buying this car?  Selling my house and moving back up north, and will not have a garage. :-(

If you're serious, I would say try to find a storage facility and keep the car at all costs! Don't let this thing slip away, you will forever miss it I'm sure.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 07, 2015, 08:11:12 PM
I know.  Honestly doing the mechanical work is getting old.  LOL  I am trying to hold on, but we just put the house up for sale Friday.  Not sure if its back to NYC, or North Florida (where I grew up).

Anyway, I wanted to write a better description now that I am on a computer and not a phone.

This morning, I was getting ready to take the first drive.  I spent all day Saturday running new wiring with heat shrink.  Toggles fit beautifully in the panel I picked up and its conveniently located in the cup holder.  This also allowed me to clean up alot of the wires that I just tie wraped in loops (which as you can see from the older photos, just looked messy).  ECU is still on the top of the bussed electric box, and I was able to run the MSD ignition box up by the firewall on the drivers side.  Hours went into this just so I had perfect connections, wires in looms that run through the center console to the switch panel, etc.

So Sunday afternoon (today) I hopped in and fired it right up.  The odd part was it wouldnt stay at 1000 RPM's (even though it had run perfectly the last few times).  It kept dipping down to like 400 RPM's and stalling.  I decided to just start over with a fresh tune.  Went through all the steps in order to calibrate the TPS and such.  Fired right up, but this time, the RPM's would go from 500 all the way as high as 3000!  only stayed at each end for a few seconds, but honestly the engine was getting warm quick just sitting still in the driveway even with both fans (because of the 3000 RPM's).  Right before it overflowed/ over heated, I heard a small "POP".  Very light noise, but I heard it.   Seconds later, it boiled over. 

Frustrated (as you can imagine) I decided to take the wife and head to a nature preserve in Jupiter FL.  Needed the fresh air and the quiet.  Couldn't understand why I had the EFI working perfect the weeks previous, Idling at 1000, A/F was on target, etc.... and today it went bonkers.

When I came home, I needed to get it back into the garage.  Started by running a fresh tune (yet again) and oddly enough, Fired right up.... and was right on target at 1000 RPM.  Even after it reached temperature and went into learning mode, it didnt need any calibration!  It was right on target!....  Started to pull it into the garage, and thought....  now or never!  Put it into reverse, backed into the road, and started out around the block.

Now, I havent driven any ferrari's or lamborghini's, but I have driven a Viper GTs.... and this was just as scarry.  In 1st gear, it threw me back a little in the seat!  On positive notes....  Transmission worked perfectly.  Hydraulic clutch was responsive and pedal was firm, no whine from the rear end.......  Worked great.

However, 4 or 5 houses down, it just shut off.  Didnt sputter, or anything.  Just off.

When my neighbor got it back to my driveway, we saw that there was a sliver of belt in the driveway.  It was at that point that I realized that that "POP" was the belt.  Later this evening, I actuallly came across the alternator adjustment/ tension bolt.  So it would seem that the alternator slipped down the bracket, the belt came off the pullleys, and just was sitting between the pulleys getting chewed up.  This means not only was the water pump not functioning, but the alternator was not recharging the battery.  Hence the overheating and high temps earlier in the day.... and the car shutting off 5 houses down....  battery is dead (so dead I couldnt get the electric windows up).

Anyway, new (correct size belt) on its way....  I am going to use a lock washer with the alternator bolt this time.

Until next time guys  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on June 07, 2015, 09:27:55 PM
Other than the couple glitches you had and the tensioner bolt backing out, it sounds like next time it should be smooth sailing hopefully. On the tensioner bolt, are you using a lock wasker, flat washer, or none? I would definitely recommend using the lock washer and a flat washer if possible, but just the lock washer would suffice. Also, it will be interesting to see if your new cooling mods work out. Best of luck on getting this dialed in. :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 08, 2015, 10:35:11 AM
I think what is bothering me the most (and I cant figure it out)...  Is I have a 3 row radiator, aluminum fan shroud(which was made for this radiator so it fits it perfectly, and these 2 spal fans with pretty beefy motors (3500 CFM together running).... and idling in the driveway , with both fans funning on High... the temperature rises.  I honestly would like to see the temp rise slowly with the 1 fan on, and at the very least, the temp stay where it is (or drop) when the 2nd fan kicks on.

Unsure why its so HOT?

Only thing I can think of is pulling the radiator out again and putting a silicone rubber "seal" around the fan shroud to make sure its only sucking air through the fins and not from around the shroud? 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: MRadke on June 08, 2015, 01:22:50 PM
What are the chances that your electric fans slowed due to low amperage and caused your overheat? 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on June 08, 2015, 01:24:36 PM
without belt the waterpump is not pumping anywater
so no wounder it overheats and probably the belt
have been slipping for awhile before it jumped of
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 08, 2015, 02:05:01 PM
Go back through the car and check bolts, don't solve another issue yet....broken record....then continue with the drive. 

You may want to take a few wrenches and check anything you can put a wrench on.  Not the first builder who forgot to tighten something

Also, try not to get discouraged.  When a failure is due to the guy assembling it, as in this case, its a good kick in the groin, but it is explainable.  If you couldn't buy parts or had defective parts, it can be a reason to take a knee.  However, this is only a case where you did something you shouldn't.  Fix the belts, give it another once over, and get the car on the road, and then see what it does.

That motor is fresh and tight and as of yet, still finding loose blts and other mistakes, and it is  not properly self-tuned, stay the course.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 08, 2015, 03:55:31 PM
Thanks guys.  I had the bolt tight on the alternator bracket, but only had a flat washer on it.... And with the coolant overflowing onto it.... and that coolant stuff is almost oily, it bust have worked itself loose.  I am going to put a lock washer on it this time (in addition to the flat washer).  Belt will be here by Wednesday (so it says)....  Will put the new belt on, make sure that its tight on the pulleys, and then add the lock washer and tighten.  Keep you posted again  :0)

Have to keep the garage neat and tidy now that the realtor is showing the house all the time  LOL
Have to be a clean grease monkey going forward LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 08, 2015, 08:55:37 PM
Man it's tough to be in a project in the middle of a move, after 20 years plus in the USAF, I feel for you, been there

I've been the tough love guy though and I will stay in that role...but I do want you to know I really respect your hard (and nice) work and good attitude before I give you the poke again :)

HOWEVER, I just want to point out that bolts that get wet or oily don't loosen up.  Lock washers help them stay tight, but a properly torqued bolt doesn't loosen, especially that quickly.  Remember, a BUNCH of bolts in your car live in oil.

The only reason I am dwelling on it is that is because this loose bolt may be friends with others, and you have done too nice of work to break something because of an overlooked bolt.

I know you are busy, and I wish I was still in the south to help hands-on, but don't let yourself believe in gremlins or ignore cause and effect.  You've made a lot of changes, and the more changes we do, the more chances to overlook something.  A good afternoon of "nut and bolting" is done by even race teams checking their work, don't think it's a slam.

Check all the accessory bracket bolts, check the motor mounts, the bell housing bolts, the clamps, etc.  It'll be a nice calm day without much thinking and you might save an expensive part from being broken, or heaven forbid you get it running strong and the steering or brakes fail

BTW, don't sell it, if you have to ship it to Nebraska and I'll give you a hell of a deal on finishing it up for you.  It's too cool to part with and furthermore, will be worth a LOT more once you get it dialed in.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on June 08, 2015, 08:59:20 PM
What he^^^^^^^said.
We're with you, if only in spirit.
Don't sell it.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on June 08, 2015, 11:10:05 PM
Agreed!  If you were in Southern California I'd be all over that.  I had the privilege of getting the engine sorted out in this beast a couple of years ago  ;)

(http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac255/ottodyn/SOHC%20Cobra/IMG_0302_zpsfjkek9db.jpg) (http://s905.photobucket.com/user/ottodyn/media/SOHC%20Cobra/IMG_0302_zpsfjkek9db.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 09, 2015, 09:05:32 AM
How in the world does that thing stay cool with the tiny Cobra radiator?  It looks like a 4 row (just from the thickness) but surface area seems tiny!  What temp does that idle at? 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 09, 2015, 09:24:44 AM
Hey Jay,

Here is a picture of the throttle body.  Only the primary throttle body (one toward the front of the car in my case) has this vent.  When the car is running, air is being sucked into it, but after the car is shut off, the whispy white smoke comes out (On the other hand, whispy white smoke comes from the breather cap while the engine is running and stops when I shut it off)

Obviously this "port" is sucking in South Florida air at like 90% humidity.....  Is this correct?  Or does this "port need to be sealed off?  Not sure as its not even mentioned what it is in the instructions.

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/Throttle%20body_zpsat5ec0jb.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/Throttle%20body_zpsat5ec0jb.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on June 09, 2015, 09:47:27 AM
Most of my customers are Cobra owners....the engines stay remarkably cool because the radiator sits in front of a giant opening in the nose of the car.  It's even hard to get oil temperature to stay where it needs to in most cases.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Stangman on June 09, 2015, 10:01:23 AM
I believe that hole goes to the idle air control therefore you can't block it off
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on June 09, 2015, 10:05:32 AM
That's right, that's the IAC inlet, so it has to stay open.  If you have some vapor coming out of there its vapor from inside the intake manifold, and is probably just fuel vapor.  A carb will do the same thing if you shut the engine off hot, and then open the butterflies a little.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 09, 2015, 11:15:57 AM
Ah ok.  Yea its not a ton of smoke....  and the engine is always hot when I shut it down (LOL  Ongoing issue for me right now).

Thanks guys.

I also realized that there is a plastic skid plate that I removed to be able to wire up the electric fans, as well as access to the harmonic balancer (earlier).  I have not reinstalled that, and I just thought about how it probably closes off the front of the radiator to Fresh air and not the hot air from under the car.  I would assume if I replace that plastic skid plate, it would funnel all the cold air through the front bumper/Grill area and not allow hot air from under the car to be sucked up in front of the radiator.

I am waiting on the alternator belt still, but will reinstall the plate as soon as I have the belt back on and bolts re-checked/ re-torqued)

:0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on June 09, 2015, 11:37:02 AM
Jason -

As Brent said, there was no real issue keeping the Cobra cool.  There were two pusher and one puller electric fans on that big radiator.  It was all in place before I worked on the car, so I didn't have to delve into all of the details, but it worked pretty well.

Coolant and oil temps stayed in the low 200's as I recall.  The fans would kick on quite a bit if you idled on a hot day for a long time...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 09, 2015, 01:36:39 PM
That's right, that's the IAC inlet, so it has to stay open.  If you have some vapor coming out of there its vapor from inside the intake manifold, and is probably just fuel vapor.  A carb will do the same thing if you shut the engine off hot, and then open the butterflies a little.

Exactly, it works by the same idea as cracking the throttle blades open, add more air, then the computer adds fuel and idle speed goes up

Additionally, the IAC stepper motor generally stays where it was last, so that is straight path to the intake when open
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 09, 2015, 03:46:54 PM
Ok so fuel vapor is normal?  Just making sure
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 09, 2015, 05:09:35 PM
Yes, especially on a car that hasn't been fine tuned yet

Whenever you fire it cold, it's rich by design.  Without running it, there will be extra fuel in there.  You likely will not see it when actually driving the car
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 09, 2015, 09:46:52 PM
Took this photo right before my 4 house drive lol. It really is a sweet looking ride. Lol

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/75209E86-BA95-4F1B-A5C8-E643FA9F483A_zpsrxxqqdqk.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/75209E86-BA95-4F1B-A5C8-E643FA9F483A_zpsrxxqqdqk.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 10, 2015, 05:57:50 PM
OK guys,

Got the belt today.  I wanted to see how much different it was than the belt I initially had in there.  The original belt fit down into the V  (not even level with the top of the pulley).  This belt seems to have a lot more surface area on the sides of the pulley groove as well as sitting a tiny bit higher than the pulley itself (it sticks up above the pulley when installed a tiny bit).

Then on to measuring the pulley alignment.  honestly it is a tiny bit off (maybe an 1/8"), but almost aligned.  I was curious if I can just pull the alternator pulley off, shim with a washer behind it and tighten it back on.  For now, I reinstalled the belt until I can tackle that.

I also took a look at how difficult it would be to angle the bottom of the radiator about 2-3 inches forward and leave the top where it is....  this way, the fans wont interfere with the P/S pulley.

Honestly a days work with some sheet metal from Home depot, My welder, and an angle grinder.  For now, I am still "taking that one bite" which is the cooling.  Ill move the radiator when things are dialed in.

While I was down there, I reinstalled the skid plate below the radiator.  This is a plastic panel that tucks up in the front bumper and then attaches to the radiator cross member.  Again, this may funnel more cold air in from the grill and not suck the hot air up from under the car while at idle.

Lastly.... that mystery bolt.  Luckily it was not the alternator adjustment bolt!  That was still torqued in place and tight as ever.  After 10 minutes of looking around under there, I found it.  It was a bolt between the # 2 header tube and the #3 header tube.  Since he cut the header flange into 3 sections so that the headers can be taken apart to take into or out of the car, it is a bolt with a flat washer behind it (as it goes between 2 pieces of the flange on the seam).  Its not possible to access this bolt from the bottom of the car. Infact, you have to take the battery out and snake your arm with a wrench under the head from the back and reach it that way.  Not sure if I missed it, or it back out on its own, but taking no chances, I put a lock washer between the bolt head and the flat washer and tightened it down tight!.  I checked as many of the other bolts as I could with the wrench, and they all seemed pretty tight.  When I send them off for powder coating, I will make sure I put lock washers behind all of the bolts to make sure they dont ever back out.

Curious if that bolt backing out could have caused the ticking noise?  Maybe exhaust leaks?  Ill keep an ear out.

Anyway, im back in the saddle again.  Maybe this weekend I take it out again with someone in the passenger seat.

Until then!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on June 10, 2015, 06:54:20 PM
I'll bet that an exhaust leak caused by the missing bolt was the ticking noise.  That's just what they sound like...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 10, 2015, 06:59:46 PM
Thanks Jay.  Fingers crossed.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on June 10, 2015, 09:58:09 PM
Then on to measuring the pulley alignment.  honestly it is a tiny bit off (maybe an 1/8"), but almost aligned.  I was curious if I can just pull the alternator pulley off, shim with a washer behind it and tighten it back on.  For now, I reinstalled the belt until I can tackle that.

As long as there are enough threads left on the shaft, you should be fine to shim it with a washer or solid spacer. From what I remember your alt. has the internal fan, correct?(3G) If so, it shouldn't be a problem. With older style 1G and 2G alternators, it could be a problem because the pulley sits against the fan and supports it. Car looks great btw! :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 10, 2015, 10:26:53 PM
Hey Jared. Yep internal fan. I think when I pull the radiator out to move it forward, thats when ill shim it. Ill also check crank to water pump pulley alignment then too. I see jegs sells water pump pulley shims in different thicknesses. Ill make sure they are all dead aligned

Realestate agent was over today to take photos of the house.... Took a few of the saleen too. Lol. Not included in the sale. Hahaha

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on June 10, 2015, 10:43:25 PM
Sounds good and a real estate agent with some taste! ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 11, 2015, 08:41:08 AM
Lol. Also realized there was quite a bit of P/S fluid under the car. I guess since it gets pushed back to the return tank when i turn the wheel.... But doesnt get pumped back into the steering rack ( no P/S belt installed) the reservoir overflowed. Lol

Took a clean rag and wiped the undercarriage down .... All clean now. Lol

Gremlins..... They are time consuming.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 11, 2015, 02:10:10 PM
Just as a side note, I managed to track down a V belt that's 7/16" wide and 45.5" long (This will be for the Power steering pump once I move the radiator forward a little).  I have been searching and searching, and finally went back to Summit to start the search over again and it seems to be a newly added product.  Ill just store it away until I finally get the radiator moved forward.

:0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 11, 2015, 03:31:16 PM
Interesting .....

I just finished speaking with the Hot Rod shop that installed the 427 Cammer in the 2005 Mustang GT.  He was curious why I had to get a larger radiator?  LOL  He said that he ran the 1 row stock radiator but made room to use the Stock electric fan/shroud.  He said it kept the cammer plenty cool.  Is that weird?  Either that's wrong, it that's one hell of a stock fan!  lol

He also said when he moved the radiator forward to get the stock fan/shroud to fit, he only angled the bottom out (Much like what I have been talking about).  This gives you plently of room between fan motor(s) as well as pushing the hot air down under the engine rather than straight into it.

The good thing is that it should be super simple to just extend those 2 bottom tabs that the radiator rests on.  Whats curious is how he got that beast cool with that super thin 1" wide core stock radiator???
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 11, 2015, 03:46:34 PM
Airflow

The factory electric fans from Ford are monsters.  If you have enough airflow, it doesn't take a huge radiator.

I like the idea of you moving that radiator however is most logical, it'd be better to get your PS working and have the car right so you can get some miles on it.

BTW, you should be able to buy any width and length V-belt you need if the current one doesn't work out.  The part number on the belt itself indicates both width and size.  Be sure to fix the crooked pulleys, it's important for belt retention and belt life in general.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 11, 2015, 04:00:26 PM
I just did a little sleuthing.  The stock fan and shroud out of a 2005 Shelby (larger engine than a GT- 5.0 I think) moved 3,286 CFM with its stock set up.  I am currently at 3,554 with my dual spal fans.  The new radiator is a lot thicker (3 rows).....  I wonder how much more air you need to move (CFM's) in order to take into account the increased thickness?  Just thinking out loud....  wouldn't the thicker radiator bring the heat down in addition to the fans?   So thicker radiator with the same CFM rans should run cooler... not hotter right?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: MRadke on June 11, 2015, 04:48:45 PM
I will bet you are moving less air with your dual spals through the thick radiator than the stock set up pulls with the one row.  You have a lot more friction loss trying to pull air through the thicker core that you have now.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 11, 2015, 05:05:29 PM
What's left until the next trip?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on June 11, 2015, 08:13:02 PM
I will bet you are moving less air with your dual spals through the thick radiator than the stock set up pulls with the one row.  You have a lot more friction loss trying to pull air through the thicker core that you have now.

I've got a 3-1/2" core aluminum radiator in my Mach 1 (two rows of 1-3/8" wide tubes), and those Spals pull an unbelievable amount of air through it.  Like a windstorm under the hood.  Radiator thickness is not going to be a problem.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 11, 2015, 08:33:01 PM
All the things mentioned are little things that can be done later. As of now, its ready to go again.

I will likely run it in the driveway a few times getting it to temp, adding coolant, watching the temp at idle.

I also want to do another oil change and inspect the filter again

I found joe gibbs break in oil 5W-30 pretty cheap locally. Ill add it just to be safe for the first few hundred miles

Try and go again this Saturday
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 11, 2015, 08:38:45 PM
If you are delaying and watching temp to make yourself feel better, I got it

However, if you think it's going to stay running, running it in the yard is doing no favors for tuning or for break in.  Hopefully you'll trust that it won't overheat soon and get out there in it

Just for giggles, why such thin oil?  Are your clearances very tight?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 11, 2015, 09:14:38 PM
i was told they dont make Joe Gibbs break in oil in 10W-30???  I read Joe Gibbs is the best you can use for the break in period?  My thought was that everything is a little tight in the beginning no?

Main clearances were between .002-.003
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 11, 2015, 09:49:42 PM
Joe Gibbs is good, so is Brad Penn, or Valvoline Racing, all good oil.

Typically oil weight is based on bearing clearances, if you have good idle oil pressure, no worries, thin is good for drainback and quick pumping, but if it turns out to be low when hot due to generally looser performance bearing clearances, I'd run 10w40 or even a mix of 10w40 and 20w50 of the same brand.

Also keep in mind, you don't have spinning lifters that can get eaten easily with poor splash lubrication, so although you do have rockers that will like the zinc, it's likely not as critical as a pushrod engine
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 12, 2015, 09:04:10 AM
Hey Ross.

Yea, to be honest... that's kinda it.  I am nervous about over heating.  I think what would make me feel better is the temperature stopping at a specific temperature (at idle) with both fans on.  With a 3 row aluminum radiator and 3 big spal fans sucking....  I would feel better if it didn't go above 220 degrees sitting still. 

I will do it.....  just need to man up I guess.

In other news (and I trust Jay more than this other guy telling me), but Antons hot rod shop suggested that I put this engine at 22 degrees initial timing.  He says he puts all his engines at that due to running them on anything under race fuel.  He thought his may be why its running hot.  When I put some thought into it, it didn't make sense.  If you spark the ignition at some degrees >16 degrees Before Top Dead Center, you are compressing the fuel combustion longer (which would mean hotter no?)...  at 16 degrees BTDC, the piston is closer to the top of the cylinder when the spark ignites the compressed fuel /Air, and then quickly pushes the piston down (My thinking would be that it would cause the car to run somewhat cooler no?)

Anyway, I have been told many times to put it at 16 degrees initial with 32-34 total at 3000 RPM.... and that's where it is now  LOL  Just wanted to throw this out for discussion (as it helps me understand engine building better).  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 12, 2015, 01:29:14 PM
Just run it, don't do that :)  Every engine is different and few NEED that much initial

ON EDIT - Sorry I was replying from a crappy laptop.  If you were at 4-6 BTDC the exhaust could get hot and the engine could hold a little more heat.  However, 16 is not going to make it cooler and you are likely going to have a harder time starting it, not to mention likely being more fussy on fuel. 

Has it actually boiled over since you got the big fans on?  At this point, let it idle and see how far it gets, if it doesn't boil over, let it climb, if it does get above 230 or even 240, or starts blowing out the cap (more than normal expansion), shut it down.  My guess is you are getting spooked before you see what it really does

Keep in mind though, eventually that engine should get some sort of real heat into it, all this start and stop is no good for it.  Maybe go find a tow company and talk to them, give them your route, tell them what you are doing, and then f you break down they will know you and come right out.

Again though, CHECK everything, especially seeing as you have reservations.  Make your own list of anything that can loosen or leak, suspension, oil levels, belt tensions, water levels, double check and cross them out.  At the end of you list, all that is left is a freak failure, and if you have a plan to get it home, no worries.  You cannot plan for everything

One last comment, first ride should be like your mom is in the car and she is not happy.  Drive easy, don't see what it has for power, just drive to a quiet place outside of town.  After you get most of the way home, then if you care to give it a go, fine.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 13, 2015, 11:39:55 AM
Got to bring this up again.... Dont kill me

Went to the guy who did my machine work ( mustang performance racing) to get the joe gibbs oil

First off, i took the oil filter insides with me so he could have a look. He said it looked totally normal for a first break in run

Then I was telling him about my overheating prob......
His first question?  Whats your timing at?

When i said 16 initial and 34 total with the mechanical advance, he said wayyyy to low and he thinks thats why its overheating. I have to ask again, since my engine runs soooo hot, is there any way i should be at 20 -25 degrees initial,?  I really want to see the engine stay under 200 degrees

This is the 3rd person to say my initial timing is making it run hot and that its too low.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 13, 2015, 12:24:31 PM
Turn it to 22 and let it idle, prove it to yourself, if it changes, recurve the distributor to the same total.

You have too many cooks in the kitchen.  I have to be honest, the same questions over and over hoping for a different answer is real frustrating for old heads.

I PROMISE its not WAY TOO LOW, but if you recurve, play with 22, just remember it may not like to start hot and you may have to slow the curve down

I have to tell you and I am going to say it in a way that sounds like a dick.  LOL

You don't even know that you HAVE an overheating problem, you keep starting the car and letting it idle with uncoated headers and repeated changes under the hood, but you are so hyper focused on it, we can't get past it. 

Try it, let it idle, and like I said yesterday, let it idle and get real hot, see what it does, at 15 or 22.

FWIW, even the slightest movement will wick air away from under the car too which will let the fans work better.

If you think those guys know more than the guys here, use them, but watch out, Jay knows where timing should be based on that chamber design and quench, we all know what runs well on the street, and using the generic answers has melted a lot of pistons over the years
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 13, 2015, 12:28:06 PM
BTW, with that tight engine compartment and uncoated headers, I would be amazed if a fresh motor will just chug away at 200 degrees
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on June 13, 2015, 01:22:25 PM
I just can't imagine that's the problem, Jason.  The most initial I ever run is 20, and that's only on an EFI system where you can dial in the total timing at any amount.  You have about 15 in the distributor, correct?  If you went to 25 initial, you would have 40 total, which is way, way too much for that engine. 

You are probably timing the engine at idle, right?  I don't like to do that; I prefer to time the engines at total advance, and let the initial fall where it may.  I suppose it is possible that some of your centrifugal timing is coming in right away, and so you don't have as much initial timing as you think.  When I time an engine I rev it up to 3000-3500 and adjust for total timing, about 32 degrees in your case.  You might try that instead.

By the way, the difference in engine temp between being timed at 16 degrees initial and 20 degrees initial will not be significant.  I've been thinking that your overheating problem is a combination of new engine, uncoated headers,  tight engine compartment, and the issues you've been fighting all along (not turning the water pump, radiator too small, insufficient electric fans).  I think you have most of that licked at this point.  Keep trying - Jay
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on June 13, 2015, 01:30:52 PM
Initial timing is not too low.  Unless it was locked out for a race application, I don't think I've ever ran over 20 degrees initial on anything.

I'm with Ross, you need to just quit hem-hawing around and just drive the thing.   
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on June 13, 2015, 02:35:00 PM
I'm with Ross, you need to just quit hem-hawing around and just drive the thing.

+3....or is it 4?

I'm jumping on the band wagon here. STOP listening to people who know NOTHING about the SOHC. The best advice you're going to get is right here on this forum. These guys are trying to help you, but you're just not listening. And Jay is right, adjust the total and let the initial be what it is. If the initial is an issue with starting or idle, it can be dealt with later in the distributor. Total timing is what should concern you most.

It's the same story, new tune....idle, new tune....idle, new tune....idle.

You're not going to get anywhere doing that. DRIVE IT.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: foxlincoln on June 13, 2015, 03:05:51 PM
So you guys will think I am off on this.But think about this,most factory engines run 2 bypass systems of about 5/8 hose One for the bypass hose and one for the heater.This to allow the engine to warm up evenly.Coolant is always circulating in the motor when its running. I have seen big block chevy guys take of their bypass hose off only to put it back on,because it would puke coolant every time they would shut it off. What is the cooling system setup now?Thermostat installed and where?You have all the good stuff.It has to be something simple.Jay what do you run as far as thermostat,what temps do you run.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on June 13, 2015, 03:18:23 PM
My major concern at this point would be how compromised the ring seal has been.  Now obviously, we're not dealing with 60's honing techniques and ring materials, but the first thing to do with any new engine is to get it going and put a hard load on it with an engine dyno, or get it going and get it out on the road and cycle the rpms/loads on the engine. 

With as rich as the engine has been, just sitting in the driveway idling repeatedly is not helping anything and could possibly be making things worse for the long run.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 13, 2015, 03:24:32 PM
So you guys will think I am off on this.But think about this,most factory engines run 2 bypass systems of about 5/8 hose One for the bypass hose and one for the heater.This to allow the engine to warm up evenly.Coolant is always circulating in the motor when its running. I have seen big block chevy guys take of their bypass hose off only to put it back on,because it would puke coolant every time they would shut it off. What is the cooling system setup now?Thermostat installed and where?You have all the good stuff.It has to be something simple.Jay what do you run as far as thermostat,what temps do you run.

It is simple, its a fresh motor jam packed into a tight body with big uncoated headers sitting in Southern Florida idling....and it does have a hole drilled as a bypass allow some movement.

I do understand that you are concerned with the amount of bypass, but by the time it hits thermostat temp, a bypass is not required, matter of fact, many vehicles, including 351C, Powerstrokes and other of all brands have a lower disk that closes off the bypass once the thermostat opens.

In the end, he may indeed have to louver a hood or put a hood scoop to allow it to vent heat when not moving, but he just isn't there yet.  Installing the headers before coating, bad belts, loose bolts, small radiator, insufficient fans all are explainable, now is the time to break it in and see what it really does.

We still don't know if it will boil over with the new belt, radiator and fans, so it's hard to say there is even an issue.

I can't stress enough that checking every nut and bolt, every fluid level, and having a plan will relax him and ensure he doesn't have another bracket, bolt, you name it falling off.  After that, he needs to let the car talk to him.

Brent has a good point, I personally think that ring seal will be OK, but eventually it won't and like Brent said, time to get a load on it and let the computer work it's own magic
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 13, 2015, 04:15:13 PM
To be completely honest, sometimes I need to be talked to like a dick. Lol

It was time to man up. Car started right up, but there was still alot of clicking. After a few minutes, i found that the spal fans were rattl'n against the aluminum shroud. On a seperate note, no squealing at all with the new 7/16" belt

Waited for car to get to 185 and 2nd fan kicked on. Started to see coolant level drop in degas tank so I knew thermostat had opened. Added more coolant ( degas tank about half full). Replaced degas cap, and car got as hot as 190. Stayed there for a bit.... And I thought this would be as good a time as ever to head out ( only around the block). Long story short, maybe 1/4 mile in the neighborhood and when i pulled back into garage, coolant temp only at 200.  As I was only in 1st and 2 nd gear, i still felt ok about it.  Did find that brakes are a little soft for my taste. Im going to check on the fuse for the abs system ( or maybe try bleeding them again?). Then out again a little further.....  Thanks Ross,  sometimes i need hard love

Oh also, i saw that the vacuum line to the throttle body from fuel pressure regulator was not air tight...  When i push it hard onto the throttle body, the fuel pressure stops jumping around. Will have to get a t fitting and some smaller hose to fix that
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 13, 2015, 05:36:44 PM
Look at that, AWESOME!

That elephant is being eaten on bite at a time.

Grab a notebook and start writing things down.

- Tighten fan mount
- Repair vacuum line
- Mark degas bottle for cold fill line
- Check all belts after run
- Figure out brakes and repair

Keep that list handy and add to it, and cross  things off, eventually you will have no more elephant to eat ;)

Believe me, everyone on this list has been there, and yours was an ambitious build.  I am still an absolute Jason fan, just needed to talk  you off the ledge before I pushed you off :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 13, 2015, 07:11:41 PM
Hahaha. Thanks Ross
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on June 13, 2015, 07:14:00 PM
Congrats Jason
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 13, 2015, 08:23:01 PM
Thanks Marc
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Bolted to Floor on June 13, 2015, 08:57:38 PM
Glad to see you get some windshield time Jason   8)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Barry_R on June 13, 2015, 09:16:00 PM
You made it around the block - congrats!

At about this point Jay would be taking it off to drag week!    8)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on June 13, 2015, 10:20:15 PM
You made it around the block - congrats!

At about this point Jay would be taking it off to drag week!    8)

LOL! A quick spin around the block qualifies as a proper test drive before any major event and/or road trip. ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on June 13, 2015, 10:22:27 PM
HOORAY!! Congrats on your first real drive. Temps are sounding good so far.
Nothing says you have to head long distance from your house. Just drive it up and down streets/blocks near your house. That'll build the confidence to take it further each time. Then you'll be busting U-joints in no time...lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on June 13, 2015, 10:23:25 PM
You made it around the block - congrats!

At about this point Jay would be taking it off to drag week!    8)

Now THAT was funny!!!! And dead on ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on June 13, 2015, 11:33:43 PM
You made it around the block - congrats!

At about this point Jay would be taking it off to drag week!    8)

You're not kidding, he's way ahead of me!  I've loaded them on the trailer for Drag Week with zero street miles, and only a couple burnouts in the driveway...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on June 14, 2015, 12:30:58 AM
You made it around the block - congrats!

At about this point Jay would be taking it off to drag week!    8)

LOL! A quick spin around the block qualifies as a proper test drive before any major event and/or road trip. ;D

Scratch that. A test drive is overrated, a couple quick burnouts will suffice!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 14, 2015, 11:57:13 AM
So when is the next escapade?

And what is not working right now?  Power steering? Brakes? etc
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on June 14, 2015, 01:06:37 PM
Jason, if your brakes still feel soft try re-bleeding them. Soft would indicate air, so mechanical not electrical. If you had new brakes installed on rear and brake hoses/lines, most likely a little air in it yet. Start at RR, LR, RF, and finish with LF. A vacuum bleeeder works fairly well, but pumping and holding while cracking loose is efficient also. Another method I found works well is get a bottle or jar and a hose (preferably clear) hooked to the bleeder and have it submegerged in the container maybe about 1/3 full of fresh brake fluid. Push pedal down quickly and release slowly several times while bleeder stays open, this forces air out quickly and allows some fluid that was displaced to re-enter without the addition of any more air. I have done this process by myself before, but is a little easier with a helper.

I'll bet that steering put up a  fight w/out the power assist. :o It is much easier to steer manual steering if it is set up for it, unlike power w/out the assist. Sounds like your making good progress, keep it up! 200° sounds very reasonable. Mine usually runs at 200-205ish maybe 210 with an EMP Stuart high flow 195 t-stat, factory rad., water wetter, Ford Racing 16lb cap, and mechanical clutch fan w/shroud.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: foxlincoln on June 14, 2015, 01:23:12 PM
So you guys will think I am off on this.But think about this,most factory engines run 2 bypass systems of about 5/8 hose One for the bypass hose and one for the heater.This to allow the engine to warm up evenly.Coolant is always circulating in the motor when its running. I have seen big block chevy guys take of their bypass hose off only to put it back on,because it would puke coolant every time they would shut it off. What is the cooling system setup now?Thermostat installed and where?You have all the good stuff.It has to be something simple.Jay what do you run as far as thermostat,what temps do you run.

It is simple, its a fresh motor jam packed into a tight body with big uncoated headers sitting in Southern Florida idling....and it does have a hole drilled as a bypass allow some movement.

I do understand that you are concerned with the amount of bypass, but by the time it hits thermostat temp, a bypass is not required, matter of fact, many vehicles, including 351C, Powerstrokes and other of all brands have a lower disk that closes off the bypass once the thermostat opens.

In the end, he may indeed have to louver a hood or put a hood scoop to allow it to vent heat when not moving, but he just isn't there yet.  Installing the headers before coating, bad belts, loose bolts, small radiator, insufficient fans all are explainable, now is the time to break it in and see what it really does.

We still don't know if it will boil over with the new belt, radiator and fans, so it's hard to say there is even an issue.

I can't stress enough that checking every nut and bolt, every fluid level, and having a plan will relax him and ensure he doesn't have another bracket, bolt, you name it falling off.  After that, he needs to let the car talk to him.

Brent has a good point, I personally think that ring seal will be OK, but eventually it won't and like Brent said, time to get a load on it and let the computer work it's own magic

Ross,my point is if holes drilled in the thermostat would fix the problem why would manufactures design in a bypass system of some type.You mention the 351C, in 1972 I found out about what happens when the copper disc get dissolved in a caustic hot tank.We did not know it existed.Ford had over designed an internal bypass system and had to shut it down or water would only circulate in the block not radiator We install the motor in a 1972 Pinto,it took months before we figured out the disc was missing.The hole in the disc 7/8 of an inch.My main concern is about the aluminum block which is very sensitive to being evenly heated .I have 4.6 Cobra motor in a 1989 Mustang Hatchback and have read everything there is about the cooling system before going with factory system with a 1 inch bypass.
  In my day,all headers were painted unless you knew someone who worked where they did ceramic coating.Its just as hot up north if not more,we have higher humidity.Google says it 85 degrees im Miami as of 2:00 PM Sunday and 86 in Cincinatti.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 14, 2015, 01:55:03 PM
I am not against bypasses, I never eliminate one that has it, but the motor isn't overheating now...

I have lived all over the US from New England, to Nevada, and Florida and they all have their own cooling requirements.  Heck, I hadn't realized the need for airflow until I was stationed in Vegas where the pavement temp often exceeded 150!  My then 427 powered Mustang ran cool in Nebraska, but in Vegas it was not nearly as happy until I added fan.

In the end, I think the automakers put big bypasses (in the ones that had big bypasses) so that joe normal could pull out and stand on the throttle in a cold motor and not blow a heater core or squeal a belt.  Additionally, resistance to flow is not bad, it actually helps keep a bit of pressure to stop localized steaming on the cylinder liners, so it's hard to say that you need that water to flow that much.  I do feel that you need SOME bypass though to allow water to move, just not that much

As far as ceramics versus painted or uncoated headers, in my day we painted headers too, but they didn't control heat like ceramics do, and now that they are affordable, it's a blessing.  The difference on a Mustang like mine is night and day in the floorboards and underhood, for a couple hundred bucks it's foolish not to do it.  As a second benefit, they don't rust out if 4-5 years even on a truck that sees salt.

In the end, I don't disagree that an engine needs a bypass if it has a closed thermostat, but I disagree that having hot water bypass the radiator to any significant amount helps once the thermostat opens.  In the end, in my experience, as long as the thermostat doesn't end up steam or air bound, it is going to be fine

In the end, his temps are doing OK, he could always drill a bigger hole in the thermostat if he needed to, but I just don't see a need for the big bypass, as long as some flow allows the hot water to get to the thermostat, life is good, and likely a hole will do that better than a bypass that is located away from the thermostat
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: foxlincoln on June 14, 2015, 06:40:28 PM
Remember this: A very important lesson I learned many years ago as an apprentice in a manufacturing plant:

You will not see a hole, a bolt, a flange,a lip or any other part of a machine that does not serve a function worthy of it's cost.It either is serving a current function, or served to assist the manufacture of the part.You may see an unused threaded hole, but it is there for an optional attachment, and it was cheaper to drill and tap than to set up a separate line for the operation for every option, (like air conditioner bracket holes in head and block).

Every piece of the machine was vetted for cost vs benefit before it was implemented into the manufacturing process.

It is too expensive to make a useless part.Therefore, I am very hesitant to bypass or modify an existing design until I have analysed all of it's functions.Most of the time,the original design has it right, but there are always a few exceptions to every rule, but for the majority of the time, in the last 40 years, my mentor has been right
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 14, 2015, 06:57:03 PM
We can disagree and still be great friends :)

This SOHC car is hardly as designed, an EFI SOHC with a degas bottle and electric fans....the list goes on.  Heck I am not sure if the SOHC was really designed for anything, regardless of its history, I think it was more of an engineering effort that turned into a race piece

However, I tend to agree with you.  You can't see me on from where you sit, but hundreds of builds, rebuilds, diesels, gas, truck, car, hell even train and power plant engines under my belt, I tend to be willing to shape things the way I want them.  Has it ever bitten me?  Not hard, but I learn something on every single one

You stated that you are leery unless you analyze...I get it and agree completely and hold myself to the exact same standards, please don't think I'd provide advice on a guess.  If I can't stand behind my recommendation and my name, I either won't offer advice, or if the person is stuck, I'll identify that I have an opinion or even a guess if no-one has an answer...but if I am doing that, the person knows it clearly.

In the end though, I totally respect your opinion, my experience just leads me to this answer.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 14, 2015, 07:37:58 PM
I appreciate both points of view.

OK so today, I was able to fix the vacuum reference line from the fuel pressure regulator to the throttle body (Ported vacuum line).  This should stop the fuel pressure from bouncing around and stay at a solid 32 PSI.

Second, I have a vacuum pump and fittings that assist in bleeding brakes/ clutches.  I wanted to try and bleed the brakes again.  In the Saleen, the brakes and they hydraulic clutch share 1 reservoir.  I have a rubber plug that goes onto the reservoir and then I can put a vacuum on the reservoir to pull out the air.  An online tutorial says to put 20 "bars" vacuum on the reservoir for 1 minute, then release the vacuum and pump the brakes (and or clutch) about 10 times.  This process was to be repeated 3 times.

When I said soft brakes, I guess I should explain more.  The pedal was pretty firm....  its just that I really had to mash down on the brake pedal pretty hard to get the car to a complete stop.  Again, this was nerve wracking as I was only in 2nd gear.

Front brakes on a Saleen are 2 piston and the rear are 1 (Both are disc brakes).  When the Saleen engine was in the car, it stopped on a dime.....  Want to make sure I can still stop on a dime.

After going through this bleed procedure 3 times, I looked up where every fuse was for the brakes and ABS system.  All were in place and all were still good (not blown).  I am trying to think what else I can check before heading back out on a longer trip.  I live in an area where there are no long open roads.  For miles and miles in every direction, stop signs and traffic lights.  This is why stopping is now my new concern  LOL  now that cooling has been taken off my mind :0)

I am going to do a little more research to see if there was something I disconnected that was sort of a power assist to the brake booster? Again, there was a fashionable butt load of electrical in that Saleen (almost all was not re-used).  Everything is still there (which is why the engine bay looks so full of wires.  Once everything is exactly dialed in (and works perfectly), then removing all of the extra wiring/harnesses will be the order of the day.

Found this:
The brakes on the 2005 to 2009 Mustangs are fairly standard, with discs both front and rear.  The front calipers are dual piston, while the rear calipers have single pistons.  Four-wheel anti-lock brakes are standard on all models, and power assist is provided by a conventional vacuum booster.
Vacuum-assisted (or boosted) power brakes were used in Mustangs until 1996 when the huge 4.6L SOHC and DOHC V-8 engines filled the engine compartment to capacity, making it impossible to fit a vacuum booster between the engine and inner fender. Thus, Ford went to hydroboosted power brakes, which consume less space. Hydroboost gets its pressure from the power steering pump.

Read more: http://www.mustangandfords.com/parts/mump-0209-ford-mustang-brakes/ford-power-brakes.html#ixzz3d5r4H04x

One says vacuum and the other says hydro boost.  Since I dont have the P/S hooked up, im guessing Hydroboost.....  This will be another fun one to figure out.  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 14, 2015, 09:45:14 PM
It should be real easy to tell the difference.  If hydroboost, it will have PS lines going to a little iron or aluminum manifold behind the master cylinder.

If its vacuum, it'll be a disc behind the master, usually 8 inches across-ish as a minimum.  I'll go back and look at your pics, but I am guessing it is a hydroboost based on the symptoms, if it was vacuum, you'd have a 3/8 vacuum line you'd need to hook up on the base of one of the TBs or to  the manifold

One question, you said "ported vacuum"   Ported vacuum is a vacuum line that is dead at idle and comes alive when you crack the throttle, manifold vacuum is always alive.  I'd expect you to be running manifold vacuum, did you just use the wrong term?

Edited: Hard to tell but it sure looks like you have a vacuum canister behind the master cylinder in this pic

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/E8F351F0-2E96-470B-9EE6-F6A54FD89BA6_zpsikdktxod.jpg)

If you do, the port at the 11 o'clock position needs manifold vacuum or you will have the problems you are describing. 

I am still looking though because I haven't found a perfectly clear pic yet
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on June 14, 2015, 10:11:23 PM
I guess I misunderstood when you said "soft". +1 what Ross said. I can see the vacuum canister behind the master cylinder. You must have the hose routed to constant manifold vacuum or you will have problems as Ross stated. Also, have you checked what your vacuum is at an idle? It is possible you may not have sufficient vacuum. A few solutions is add a vacuum pump, ditch the vacuum booster and install manual master cylinder, or add a vacuum reservoir canister to hold a reserve of vacuum to supply the booster adequately.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 14, 2015, 10:46:16 PM
As far as the fuel pressure regulator, i verified with Fast techs ( 3 different techs) and FAST recommends using ported vacuum and Not manifold vacuum

Ill check on the brakes tomorrow
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 14, 2015, 10:52:13 PM
As far as the fuel pressure regulator, i verified with Fast techs ( 3 different techs) and FAST recommends using ported vacuum and Not manifold vacuum

Ill check on the brakes tomorrow

That sounds really, really odd.  So at idle, they want full fuel pressure, but when you crack the throttle lightly, they want LESS fuel pressure.

Of those regulators that use vacuum reference, I have never heard of that.  Additionally, it is very uncommon to even use it on anything but a blower or turbo car as we said earlier. 

I know I said this before, but even more so now, I think that line should be eliminated.    Not worth screwing with now, and certainly not critical, and won't cause any harm, but only adds complication for the ECM to overcome as you jockey the throttle
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 14, 2015, 10:56:40 PM
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/ED9883EA-013F-40D4-99A4-8E92C48D7F38_zpssgrexbgf.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/ED9883EA-013F-40D4-99A4-8E92C48D7F38_zpssgrexbgf.jpg.html)

No hydroboost. It looks like a vacuum reference line on the brake booster. Ill link a hose from this to manifold vacuum and hopefully problem solved. Lol. Above is the clearest picture I could take
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 14, 2015, 10:57:45 PM
Not to doubt those three techs  ::)

But, here is a cut from their instructions, and honestly, I have never worked on an EFI system factory or aftermarket that used ported vacuum.  It just adds another component with a pressure change at the injector head that complicates tuning.

(http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd329/My427stang/Regulator_zps0fmznvcb.jpg)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 14, 2015, 10:59:40 PM

No hydroboost. It looks like a vacuum reference line on the brake booster. Ill link a hose from this to manifold vacuum and hopefully problem solved. Lol. Above is the clearest picture I could take

Yep that line is the issue, it will fix it.  Best to use a dedicated line for that alone of you can, manifold vacuum, 3/8 line, maybe off the secondary TB if you can or of the manifold has a port directly.

That line does all the work for the power brakes, you'll be happy
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on June 14, 2015, 11:59:48 PM
What Ross said on the brakes!  You need a good diameter, dedicated thick-walled vacuum line all the way to a plenum in the intake manifold, preferably under a throttle body.  Under no circumstances should you tee off another line!  This is critical!

I'm not quite as clear on the fuel pressure regulator.  What I learned at Ford while working in the Fuel Metering Group, was that fuel pressure and manifold vacuum should have an inverse relationship.  At idle you generally want the lowest fuel pressure, and it should go up as you open the throttle.  Doing it any other way kind of defeats the purpose of having a regulator...  I also think you should be looking at direct manifold vacuum (but don't tee off that friggin' brake booster line!!  ;) )
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 15, 2015, 12:24:34 AM
One last post and off to bed, it will be good getting back to work in a week or so LOL

A vacuum referenced regulator is generally used to overcome pounds of pressure that an injector sees under boost.

In other words, when at 20 PSI of boost, to get the same amount of fuel out of the injector as zero lbs of boost there needs to be and extra 20 psi of fuel pressure, assuming no loss in the system. This is of course due to the pressure in the intake manifold that the fuel in the injector has to overcome.

Naturally aspirated fuel pressures are far less critical, but indeed the OEM engines use them anyway.  In this case they are accounting for inches of mercury in vacuum at idle, say 18, pulling fuel through the injector, then at full throttle, when vacuum is at zero the regulator has to increase pressure, but not a lot

In fact, the difference between 10-12 inches of mercury and zero at WOT on a naturally aspirated performance motor is a far cry from 10-12 inches of mercury at idle and 20 psi of boost at full throttle on a turbo or blower car.   So on naturally aspirated motors most guys just let the computer adjust pulse width to make up for it.  In fact going from 12 inches of vacuum to zero is a change of about 5 psi injector head pressure.  The change in a turbo car could be over 25 psi depending on how much boost

As you pointed out, in Jason's case, ported vacuum would increase fuel pressure at idle, then as he accelerated, it'd drop off and then later increase as the throttle position and load changed and ported vacuum came back up.  This makes a backwards and almost unrepeatable and unpredictable math problem for the ECM because it is looking for throttle position and vacuum from the engine but but the fuel pressure (which is unmeasured) is at times inversely changing compared to what it needs.  Actually, vacuum is even shutting off at some throttle positions due to the ported vacuum, which equates to what the regulator would see when at WOT (even though it's at idle)

If it was mine, I'd run it unreferenced, and I do on my own, and mine is an EEC-IV computer that previously used a vacuum referenced regulator. However, if any owner wants to vacuum reference on a naturally aspirated EFI system, it's fine, but it really must be manifold vacuum. It is a more repeatable function that better matches with the TPS and MAP inputs to the ECM.  On a turbo car, different story, I consider boost reference a requirement because it needs to overcome a wider range of head pressures

My 2 cents
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on June 15, 2015, 01:00:28 AM
I'm not quite as clear on the fuel pressure regulator.  What I learned at Ford while working in the Fuel Metering Group, was that fuel pressure and manifold vacuum should have an inverse relationship.  At idle you generally want the lowest fuel pressure, and it should go up as you open the throttle.  Doing it any other way kind of defeats the purpose of having a regulator...  I also think you should be looking at direct manifold vacuum (but don't tee off that friggin' brake booster line!!  ;) )

Exactly. On my old 88 t-bird SEFI 302, it had the regulator mounted on the fuel rail and a vacuum hose that allowed it  to pull on the diaphragm to bleed off excess pressure at idle(vacuum high) and increase the line pressure when vacuum dropped (rpm up). The bottom of the regulator had the return line hooked to it, so it could just loop back to the tank.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 15, 2015, 09:43:34 AM
Hey guys. The only vacuum reference I can use is one of the porta on the throttle body. This means that off of the brake booster, there would be a larger diameter hose, but the i would use a plastic vacuum line reducer to go to a smaller diameter hose to connect to the throttle body vacuum reference port

Is this ok?

Also, i can swap the fuel pressure regulator over to manifold vacuum instead of ported. I just dont know why FAST would insist on using the ported one. lOl. Then again the techs have not been any help from there
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 15, 2015, 10:09:37 AM
I am not sure what you mean, but you need the same size hose from brake booster to the engine.  You could probably go from 3/8 to 5/16, but you can't go down to the small 1/8 or 3/18 size.  Doesn't your throttle body have a big brass or steel tube coming off of it?

Also, FYI, the brake booster is not a "vacuum reference" that is vacuum actually doing work.

Generally the term reference means when some other equipment is using the vacuum source to change something, like the vacuum to a  MAP sensor or your fuel regulator, generally a small hose.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 15, 2015, 10:11:40 AM
See the port on the bottom of the throttle body?

That is where the brake booster line should go. 

(http://www.ezefi.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/throttle-body-ezefi.jpg)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on June 15, 2015, 10:27:31 AM
Yup - Put your brake booster line on that big port, and don't tee anything else to it (or try to reduce it in any way).  Pull the fuel pressure regulator line off the other throttle body if possible, or at least from a place on the manifold far away from that booster vacuum port.

The reason is that a lot of air will flow back and forth in that big line when you're using the brakes.  (You have to suck out a lot of volume from that big canister.)  This will create funny vacuum levels in the line, so anything teed to it will get a bad signal.  Also it's bad safety practice to tee anything to a brake booster line, because any leak will suddenly and dramatically affect your braking power.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on June 15, 2015, 11:02:18 AM
FYI - Ross, naturally aspirated engines do create meaningful pressures in the intake manifold, even compared to turbo applications.

1 inch of mercury = 0.484 psi, so if you're pulling 16 inches at idle, that is 7.74 psi of "negative boost" that the fuel pressure regulator compensates for.  I have found on the older EEC-IV EFI fords that fuel pressure varied from the low 30's to about 39 psi from idle to WOT. 

Many modern OEM fuel systems can do away with fuel pressure regulators on naturally aspirated cars, because the atmospheric "turbo" is always the same and you can factor out the pressure effects using software.

Here's a very good example of what atmospheric pressure can do.  They're sucking all of the air out of a railroad tank car:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz95_VvTxZM

 :o :o
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 15, 2015, 11:21:40 AM
Hahaha. Hey Ross.  Yea after I posted, i found that exact picture. Just got back from the autoparts store actually. I actually still had the vacuum line on the saleen engine ( on a stand in the garage). It wasnt long enough to reconnect the Cammer Engine, so I went out and bought a new 4' length. The brake booster used 11/32" thick walled PCV hose, and i ran a fresh hose from the booster to the large port on the throttle body. That large port is actually only on the primary throttle body and its between the throttle bodies on the car. Im sure it wasnt needed, but I also put on hose clamps - 1 on each end.... To be sure I never loose my brakes. Lol

Also capped off the ported vacuum reference port and moved the fuel pressure regulator hose to the direct manifold vacuum port ( trust you guys more than FAST).

Other than an oil change, should be ready for a longer test drive.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 15, 2015, 11:34:07 AM
Bill, I think we said exactly the same thing, I am with you 100% and that's why I said 5 lbs in my example.  If he is pulling 12 in at idle, and zero at WOT, that's 12 * .484 or 5.8, if he is at 10 in at idle, it's a delta of under 5.

However, that's only about 10% change and usually there is enough injector duty cycle to make up for it.  However, a turbo car could have 20 psi, plus the same 5.8, which is effectively over 50 percent difference.  It is very unlikely injector duration could make up for that alone, not to mention the effects of spray pattern with a 25.8 psi delta.

That being said, I support vacuum reference completely and it allows for another tuning option, especially with pressure changes from elevation and/or weather.  I just find that on the tunes I build for EEC-IVs there is usually wiggle room to eliminate it.  Many others don't need it or use it as we both pointed out, especially if on the bottom edge of duty cycle, but using ported vacuum sure seems like a crazy idea.  My guess is the techs either misused the term, or said to pull it directly from the intake port, which added confusion.

BTW, neat link.  In USAF aircraft we pressurize less than commercial aircraft.  Almost every time I fly I open a bottle of water and close it up and put it back in my flight bag, when I land, it's always flat.  Not a train car or metal barrel, but shows the difference of FL350 vs being on the ground.  Even more incredible is to watch us in the chamber when we do a rapid decompression for training, uncovered water boils, plastic bottles and bags pop, not to mention the water vapor and air movement as it equalizes.  The first time I did it in the early 90s it was a little intimidating!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 15, 2015, 11:35:59 AM
Hahaha. Hey Ross.  Yea after I posted, i found that exact picture. Just got back from the autoparts store actually. I actually still had the vacuum line on the saleen engine ( on a stand in the garage). It wasnt long enough to reconnect the Cammer Engine, so I went out and bought a new 4' length. The brake booster used 11/32" thick walled PCV hose, and i ran a fresh hose from the booster to the large port on the throttle body. That large port is actually only on the primary throttle body and its between the throttle bodies on the car. Im sure it wasnt needed, but I also put on hose clamps - 1 on each end.... To be sure I never loose my brakes. Lol

Also capped off the ported vacuum reference port and moved the fuel pressure regulator hose to the direct manifold vacuum port ( trust you guys more than FAST).

Other than an oil change, should be ready for a longer test drive.

Perfect, that should lean the idle a little too, but keep in mind that the computer will still have to learn, so if its too lean and surges a little, don't get nervous :)

The brakes are likely fixed now too!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on June 15, 2015, 12:37:59 PM
Getting closer!  Good that Ross and I are singing the same tune in stereo  ;)

That thing will be such a beast. 

Ross - I've done similar experiments in aircraft, but it usually involves my body equalizing sea level pressure by means of my rear orifice - every few minutes for a couple of hours!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 15, 2015, 12:57:16 PM
Ross - I've done similar experiments in aircraft, but it usually involves my body equalizing sea level pressure by means of my rear orifice - every few minutes for a couple of hours!

That goes without saying!

If you every hear one of us say "Howdy" we aren't being friendly, that is just taking ownership of the pressure equalization :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 16, 2015, 10:06:00 AM
I know we were talking about heat extraction.  In addition to Ceramic coating the headers.....  I want to purchase this hood.  Not only does this look total bad A$$, but I would imagine that would wick away tons of heat as well as flow cold air right into the intake .....  Also seems to have a bit more "height" so I may be able to run a taller air filter

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/_57_zpswaviuwoz.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/_57_zpswaviuwoz.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 16, 2015, 11:07:30 AM
I did my Boss 9 scoop for exactly the same reason.  It made a huge difference on idle temps, although lots of guys make it a sealed cold air scoop, I left it open.  Driving air goes in, but if you get stuck in traffic you can see heat come out.  Made a heck of a difference in mine when it was carbed.

At the same time I added a taller air filter and a flat base to eliminate a heat umbrella from the drop base air cleaner over the carb.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 16, 2015, 11:38:11 AM
Just purchased that hood 2 seconds ago.  I think it looks awesome !  I actually purchased this same hood for my 1968 twin Paxton Fastback, but never got it installed before I sold the car to start buying Cammer parts.

Also, since I do not have AC in this car (Not heat), I thought what better way to use the vents.....  Gauges!  Jegs sells gauge holders that you can remove the AC vent in the Dash and "pop" in this gauge holder.  Since in the center of the dash (just above the radio) there are 2 AC vents, I picked up 2 pods ... along with an Oil pressure gauge (since the saleen dash gauge has no numbers on it)...  and a coolant temp gauge (also since the dash gauge has no numbers on it.... and also since I will not keep the handheld from the EFI hooked up once its dialed in).

These 2 gauges (in addition to the Oil temp gauge I have in the toggle panel in the cup holder ) all match and are Autometer Ultra-light electric gauges with their respective senders.

Honestly Ill feel better seeing the exact oil pressure figure and how playing with different oil viscosities will change the pressure.  Im going to change the oil maybe tonight or tomorrow night to the BR30 Joe Gibs 5W 30 Break in oil.  It says its supposed to be used only for 400 miles.

My thought was after 400 miles, the break in oil has done what it needs to do as far as ring seal, cam lobe hardening, and etc.  Then I can go to a thicker viscosity 10w-30, and see what the oil pressure does at start up.... and after its warmed up.  If it needs to be adjusted, then I can move to a thicker oil and "repeat".

I will be taking it easy on the engine during the first 400 miles (highway and interstate) anyway.

Since I have the gauges now (and god knows we have beat coolant temperature like a dead horse), what should Oil PSI and Oil temp be.  If I remember correctly from a few posts back, oil temperature will be a little below coolant temperature.  I know Oil PSI will depend on the oil I use, but what would an Idea PSI be at start up, After warm, and with throttle?  I have the Melling high volume oil pump (from precision oil pumps), but I did not make it high pressure by adding the kit.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on June 16, 2015, 02:38:31 PM
Jason -

FYI on a SOHC FE there is no cam lobe or rocker break-in.  The new cams are hardened steel and run against hard rollers. 

The only thing you have to worry about is ring sealing.  A good dino oil is all you need!  Avoid synthetic for the first couple thousand miles or so.  (It's too slippery to give the rings a real chance to get intimate with those cylinder walls.)

I believe in a good hard break-in with lots of speed changes and sudden let-offs of the throttle at highway speeds to pull vacuum.  That approach has always worked well for me on my vehicles.  I've seen too many cars and motorcycles babied during the break-in, that end up using lots of oil.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 16, 2015, 02:50:50 PM
Ahh....  I was under the impression that the cam lobes would flatten out if you didn't run the break in oil to harden them!  Nice to know they are already hardened.  I just looked them up and it says they are bearing grade steel (I am guessing that means hardened  :0)   

That's good to know.  I was worried I wasn't able to run the car at High RPM's for long enough in the very beginning because of my overheating issue.  I only got about 10 min of it revving between 2000 and 2800 RPM.  Now that I know I didn't have to do that (at least not for the hardening of the cam lobes....  )  I feel a little better.

Thanks!

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 16, 2015, 03:37:11 PM
When are you going to get this actual 400 miles on the car?

You can't count backing out of the garage and pulling it back in :)

Run the oil thats in in for a while, it's good oil and after a good long run, drop it hot and replace it with something that will stay there for a while, likely a good dino oil.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on June 16, 2015, 06:17:01 PM
Ahh....  I was under the impression that the cam lobes would flatten out if you didn't run the break in oil to harden them!  Nice to know they are already hardened.  I just looked them up and it says they are bearing grade steel (I am guessing that means hardened  :0)   

Jason, like Bill stated, no worries with that cam setup. ;) It is a "roller" cam and can not possibly flatten out becasue it already is. Unlike if it were cam-in-block and a flat tappet (hydraulic or mechanical), those lobes are ground slightly angled and lifter bottoms slightly convex to promote rotation. Also, do you have the Ultra Lite or Ultra Lite II gauges? I have the Ultra Lite II in my car and love them. With the lighting coming through the dial as opposed to around, it gives a very neat effect and the needles light up too.

(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/jaredaebly/Mobile%20Uploads/Autometer%20Ultra%20Lite%20II%20tach_zpsohtth17i.jpg) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jaredaebly/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Autometer%20Ultra%20Lite%20II%20tach_zpsohtth17i.jpg.html)
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/jaredaebly/Mobile%20Uploads/Autometer%20Ultra%20Lite%20II%20gauges_zpsg7mprubz.jpg) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jaredaebly/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Autometer%20Ultra%20Lite%20II%20gauges_zpsg7mprubz.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on June 16, 2015, 08:10:59 PM
Ross and Bill, I have no experience with EFI, let alone the self learning type used here, but I was under the impression that initial driving with the FAST EFI systems should be slight changes that you slowly ramp up. This gives the computer time to learn what the engine needs and avoids the risk of going lean if one were to "jump into  it" right away, before the system knows how to respond. Is that correct?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 16, 2015, 09:29:29 PM
It has a target a/f ratio for each scenario (acceleration, idle, cruise, cold start, etc) and an over all a/f goal. Learning may not rewrite immediately, but an improper mixture will be corrected temporarily as fast as the computer can identify it and tell the injectors to lean or richen, so it'd correct pretty quickly if it's stomped on and the initial setup gets you a conservative tune.   

That's the beauty of these w/b O2 sensor systems, the old narrow band ones only knew it was a little lean.  Matter of fact, many of us actually shut off the learning in our EFI after we get it real close because the fear is it rewrites tables for other changes when you don't want it to

Also, although learning will tweak the base tables, you eventually have to get to every part of the table and the 3/4 throttle low load table values won't fix the WOT crazy man table values

In the end, a good clean setup will be pretty much ready to go and then fix itself (as much as it can) After that, if he thinks its too rich or lean he can tweak the target values and let it adjust itself again
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on June 17, 2015, 09:12:10 AM
Ok. I just wanted to throw that out there in case, so he didn't hurt the engine if it was true.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 17, 2015, 09:37:34 AM
Oil was clean ( no metal at all) this change. And the filter in the oil filter had no metal at all. Double checked by bringing it out into the sun...... Spotless ( yet black.... Im guessing from all the arp bolt lube I used. Lol

Took the car a little further today. Drove out about 1 mile and then back (2 miles round trip). Runs great, stayed at about 200 driving around. When I got back home, i left it idling in the driveway to see how high the temp would go. Stopped at 214. Burped a little coolant when I shut it off. Brakes work awesomely. That vacuum line did the trick ( thanks guys)

Only noise is the fan and shroud rattle. Hope to go a little further perhaps on highway so I can at least run up through all gears. This last drive I got to 4th only.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 17, 2015, 12:27:51 PM
Awesome, keep it up!

Here is my recommendation

1 - When it is cold, put a piece of tape at the cold coolant level.  Then next time you drive it and let it cool down again, you can see if it stays stable.  If it is, put a mark with a Sharpie and now you have something the check every time when cold.  214 is not a problem AT ALL

2 - If the rattle won't fall apart, it's fine to drive it, but if it will, maybe it's time to fix the radiator mount so that you have power steering and no more rattles.  That way you can drive it normally, because my hunch is that it IS a normal driver now. 

3 - Said this before, but I'll keep saying to to keep that beauty safe. At some point, do a "nut and bolt"  Start from the rear of the car and check everything.  Rear axle bolts, driveshaft, crossmember, bellhousing, and keep going forward looking for wires that can burn, loose bolts, you name it.  A good day, or even weekend without starting the car could get you to the point that you are FINISHED and the car will be done. 

I'd say you are really close, once you get the PS working, I bet the rest is uneventful.

Then we can see who is quicker ;)  Although I assume when you say you are moving north, you don't mean Nebraska LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 17, 2015, 02:09:13 PM
Thanks Ross. Yea, North either means home to North Florida or NYC.... Havent decided yet, but I am no fan of the city and I grew up and went to college in North Florida.... And could still have a garage!!  Lol

Ill get a video out soon, but the car is a monster. Lol. Said it before, but makes the stock Saleen engine feel like a golf cart
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 19, 2015, 07:00:25 PM
Hey Guys. Got the gauges installed ( not wired in yet). Looks awesome. Coolant temp and oil pressure right inside the 2 AC vents. Awesome looking!!!

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/79EA9479-FA05-485D-9437-76447659EE73_zpsnmpvotpq.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/79EA9479-FA05-485D-9437-76447659EE73_zpsnmpvotpq.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 20, 2015, 08:38:31 PM
Hey all,  actually changed my mind on the hood. Ordered this new one today. Kinda reminds me of Ross's hood. Has head vents on both sides as well as an air intake right where the air filter is. I can prob even put on a taller air filter

This is a Cervini hood. No hood pins required. Comes painted in your car color. I get it in 5 weeks

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/0BAA1864-38BD-4165-9504-4D08D0184BF2_zpsfcbowl1j.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/0BAA1864-38BD-4165-9504-4D08D0184BF2_zpsfcbowl1j.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 20, 2015, 08:44:55 PM
Looks cool to me, whats the plan for power steering?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 20, 2015, 10:16:31 PM
Moving the bottom of the radiator forward so it clears the belt and also blows hot air from the radiator down under engine rather than directly into front of engine

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on June 20, 2015, 11:10:23 PM
Getting any road time lately or waiting for hood and power steering? Gauge setup looks nice btw.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on June 21, 2015, 12:31:37 AM
The "no hood pins required" is a matter of opinion, I suppose. I'm sure you're aware of the corner lifting of the hood on all of these year Mustangs. When you get to 90mph and above, the hoods look like they're about to take flight. You can literally see the corners lift about 1 1/2". That makes me nervous knowing all the stress that is placed on that latch.

I see it as having 2 options. 1: you could refrain from going over 80 mph. Or 2: you can put hood pins on it for piece of mind. An SOHC in a Mustang sort of negates option 1  ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 21, 2015, 08:24:14 AM
The "no hood pins required" is a matter of opinion, I suppose. I'm sure you're aware of the corner lifting of the hood on all of these year Mustangs. When you get to 90mph and above, the hoods look like they're about to take flight. You can literally see the corners lift about 1 1/2". That makes me nervous knowing all the stress that is placed on that latch.

I see it as having 2 options. 1: you could refrain from going over 80 mph. Or 2: you can put hood pins on it for piece of mind. An SOHC in a Mustang sort of negates option 1  ;)

I missed that, and I agree, hood pins are often a necessary evil.  Even on my 70 with a steel hood, I shifted into 5th at a bit north of 120 once (not recommended or responsible behavior kids!) and noticed the corners of the hood were lifting a LOT and realized what I was asking my hood latch to do...

I have a set on the bench, going on in a couple weeks.  I went with factory twist locks, but there are lots of options for your year car

Moving the bottom of the radiator forward so it clears the belt and also blows hot air from the radiator down under engine rather than directly into front of engine

Sounds great, seems like you are real close, when you do that it should be able to take some longer and more comfortable rides!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on June 21, 2015, 12:16:59 PM
I missed that, and I agree, hood pins are often a necessary evil.  Even on my 70 with a steel hood, I shifted into 5th at a bit north of 120 once (not recommended or responsible behavior kids!) and noticed the corners of the hood were lifting a LOT and realized what I was asking my hood latch to do...

I suppose I should have put a "Do not try this at home" disclaimer...lol

Ross, if you've ever ridden in an SN197 style Mustang, it really is scary how much the hood corners lift. I've never seen anything like it. I can't imagine a fiberglass hood being better, no matter how well it's made. I've always had factory pins on my Mach, so I never knew it was an issue on the older ones.

In Cobracammers case, that is a great idea for a hood, though. Lets heat out and cool air in, or lots of heat out when sitting still. Looks like a smart move.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Joe-JDC on June 21, 2015, 09:09:26 PM
My Fairlane Cobra's hood would lift over 2"s when the speed got over 130mph, all the way to 145, and then when I would slow down, the hood would slowly lower back into position.  The first time it happened, it scared me really bad, and I slammed on the brakes thinking it would bend the hood double at the hood pins.  Those were the days!  Young and foolish, but l loved to push that car to the limit, and it would run for miles at 145, and not miss a beat.  Joe-JDC
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on June 21, 2015, 10:51:08 PM
Reminds me of when I had my new '05 Saleen out in the desert on a trip to Vegas to work.
I'd like to say I was young and dumb.
Got off the freeway at Baker and headed toward Shoshone. There is is a nice long straight you can get 'em going on. I had heard the computer would cap it at 145mph.
Hood started lifting early, can't remember the speed?
I remember seeing 140 before I was so damn scared the hood would fly off I got out of it.
It bangs around pretty damn good at speed.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on June 22, 2015, 05:27:12 AM
I bought a new 2002 Mustang GT and shoved a set of 4.10 gears in it about 2 weeks afterward.   At 140, I didn't notice the hood raising, but the windshield wipers sounded like a set of bongo drums against the windshield...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 22, 2015, 08:47:59 AM
HAHAHA.  Yea hood pins sound like a good idea now.  No road time since the 2 miles.  Work has been time consuming all week and then there was fathers day this weekend.  Hoping to get out onto the interstate with it and go through the speed range.  If I am feeling really ballsy....  I live right next to Alligator alley...  Its a highway (toll road) goes all the way from Miami to Naples (maybe 100 or so miles).... for almost the entire way, its a straight away...  no light, no turns, no medians for police to sit....  Perfect for break in, but also there is nothing at all- no gas stations, homes, nothing for the entire route.  Just the everglades on both sides  HAHAHA  it would be awesome as hell though because its not really crowded like I-95 :0)  Hoping to get out for a drive Saturday  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 23, 2015, 10:24:05 AM
Ok, took her out on the open road today ( just got back). Ran fine.....  Stayed around 200 as soon as the car was moving even a little ( Ross  :D. )

Got up to 4th gear a few times, down shifted a few times, stopped in neutral a few times.... Trying to work the ring seal - vacuum thing we spoke about

The ticking noise from driverside head came back a little louder, so i didnt push it. Ill let it cool down, and pull the valve cover and check the lash on each rocker again- thanks Jay  ;D

Keep everyone posted, but other than that..... Scary power in every gear. Lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on June 23, 2015, 01:24:00 PM
Congrats on the successful test drive Jason! Sounds like the plan is finally coming together. Just a few more details to iron out and it will be finished. Checking the lash won't hurt, but more than likely it is a small exhaust leak. Keep it up! ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 23, 2015, 02:05:18 PM
Cylinder #5
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/9D679269-C874-40C6-9CD8-8C49709CE297_zps1jwjkazn.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/9D679269-C874-40C6-9CD8-8C49709CE297_zps1jwjkazn.jpg.html)

Cylinder #6...... Complete with locked up rocker and metal flakes!
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/E896291B-1348-4C92-88BA-EC00C67928D7_zpsljxqgm64.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/E896291B-1348-4C92-88BA-EC00C67928D7_zpsljxqgm64.jpg.html)

Cylinder #7
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/4A9D52A2-F54C-4692-A2A6-F11865D7EB12_zpsbrnlfhag.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/4A9D52A2-F54C-4692-A2A6-F11865D7EB12_zpsbrnlfhag.jpg.html)

Cylinder #8
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/D0D57B77-F8E1-4816-9481-9F8F5F4D7CCA_zpslenqdo4k.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/D0D57B77-F8E1-4816-9481-9F8F5F4D7CCA_zpslenqdo4k.jpg.html)




Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on June 23, 2015, 02:47:19 PM
Oh no! What a shame. I feel for you. :-[ Did/does the oil smell of gas, what was your oil pressure, did you prime the system with the valve covers off to watch oil flow?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 23, 2015, 03:04:43 PM
No oil doesnt smell. My guess is crap clogged the oil hole on the rocker shaft for just that rocker. Noise went away when I used thinner viscosity oil ( maybe some oil got through?). But i guess driving it today did the trick. On a good note, timing chain is still nice and tight. Also its nice that it happened on drivers side because cannot remove valve cover on passenger side while engine is in the car.... Engine would have to come out

This sort of reminds me of the 2 rockers jay had seize during dragweek in the galaxie
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Dave427SOHC on June 23, 2015, 03:32:41 PM
Thats disheartening sorry to see this but the engine will have to come out and be dissassembled and thoroughly cleaned.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on June 23, 2015, 03:56:36 PM
On that last picture is that a crack at 11:00?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 23, 2015, 04:05:30 PM
Hey Brent. Went back in and checked. It doesnt seem to be a crack. Maybe a scratch when I was assembling (possibly). Cant feel it with your finger at all.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on June 23, 2015, 04:20:57 PM
Feel for ya man...
stay with it though, it is still a great project.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on June 23, 2015, 04:33:51 PM
I know your heart is ripped out and baking on the hot sidewalk of expectation, but stay with it.
We have all been there.
Keep at it Jason, it's a cool car.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on June 23, 2015, 05:03:19 PM
I suspect you have had oiling issues all along.  All of those rockers show sign of excessive heat and wear and a lack of oil. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 23, 2015, 05:07:44 PM
Man that sucks,

Before you freak and pull the engine though, do a little investigating and see if you can figure out why it was running dry.  Maybe even priming the pump and seeing where the oil travels, sure would be a shame to just pull it without an answer

I know metal went in there, but it's hard to tell from the pics how much damage there really is and how far it would have went.

Jay is the guy to talk rocker failure, he has seen his share of it.

I have to agree with Brent though, looks like a crack in that pic
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on June 23, 2015, 05:35:28 PM
In pic #3, is that a scratch or a crack on the cam lobe? Does look like a crack in last pic.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on June 23, 2015, 06:13:00 PM
Jason, I have to agree that it appears there is insufficent oiling, and to be honest from the pictures it appears to me that it is affecting all of the rockers.  The cam lobes should not look like that.  Have you pulled the valve cover on the other side of the engine to see if it appears the same?  If you notice a big difference between the two sides, you are not getting oil on the 5-8 cylinder side. 

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that you have to pull the engine just yet.  Do some more investigating first...

Edit:  Sorry, didn't see where you said you couldn't get the passenger side valve cover off.  What is in the way of that?  You might think about modifying the car so that the right valve cover can be removed.  You need access to the valvetrain to lash the valves, etc.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 23, 2015, 06:18:20 PM
Hey jay. Cant pull the other valve cover without pulling the engine. Is that cam plug what supplies oil to the drivers side?  Or is it the oil passage on the stub cam?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on June 23, 2015, 06:35:13 PM
The #2 cam bearing supplies oil to the driver's side, and #4 to the passenger side.  It sucks that you can't get that passenger side valve cover off.  Can you take the engine loose from the mounts and jack it up a little to get to it, or anything like that?  I think you may see a big difference from side to side.  That would really tell us a lot, and it would also point to a solution...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Barry_R on June 23, 2015, 08:09:10 PM
I have to agree with the other folks - not enough oil on that side.  First mop up what chips you can with shop vacuum and rags.  Before pulling the valvetrain off use a drill to spin the oil pump and watch to see how much lube is coming up.  It should be a pretty fair amount.  I have a "workaround" if you are not getting enough/much oil there.

If you cannot easily remove the passenger side cover you might be able to catch a peep into that side by pulling off the spark plugs and removing the plug tubes.  A little flashlight down one hole and a bore scope/eyeballs down the other - you're looking for oil flow while spinning that oil pump along with similar rocker damage.

You'll be replacing at least one cam and sending the rockers in for rework.  Things look pretty dry up there.  With no oil flow to flush the chips away I would not be surprised to find the majority of damage and debris contained to the valve cover area.  After removing the damaged stuff start the cleanup with a magnet and some cloths - don't be tempted to just hose it down with spirits or cleaner..  Cut open the oil filter (again).  You might get lucky...can you remove the oil pan in the car?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 23, 2015, 08:23:53 PM
Hey Barry. Already ahead of you. Not a drop of oil to either side
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on June 23, 2015, 08:37:29 PM
You had oil pressure, right?  How much at idle, and while driving down the road?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on June 23, 2015, 10:25:10 PM
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/E8F351F0-2E96-470B-9EE6-F6A54FD89BA6_zpsikdktxod.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/E8F351F0-2E96-470B-9EE6-F6A54FD89BA6_zpsikdktxod.jpg.html)
[/quote]

Are you sure you can't pull the cover? Not trying to nag, but maybe a 1/4" drive shallow socket with a swivel and extensions for most and a regular wrench snaking your hand to the bottom ones? Maybe the socket and ratchet would even work for the bottom ones but I don't know. Keep the positive attitude Jason, I know it's hard and frustrating but many have quit far sooner than you. I'm sure you can stick it to the end. ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 23, 2015, 11:19:18 PM
No, because I used studs on the covers and not bolts.  :-\
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on June 23, 2015, 11:33:49 PM
Judging by the pic, the clearance looks similar on each side from that angle. Have you added more things to pass. side that hinders removal? Any chance of moving anything else out of the way for a little more access? Don't know how much room there is before you run into something pulling the cover, but if it comes down to it maybe see about removing the studs. You can get 1/4" drive hex bit sockets that would work to remove the studs if space permits. Doesn't look as bad as some of the F-150 5.4 3v engines that I have relplaced cam phasers and solenoids in before. Some of those are a real chore. The pass. side is always the worst with trans dipstick, injector and coil wiring, heater hoses, A/C lines, pcm (including bracket and wiring), battery cable, and other misc. items. Some of the v/c bolts are by feel (can't really see them) and others only by a 1/4" drive swivel socket. :(
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on June 24, 2015, 04:59:29 AM
Jason, did you ever prime the oil pump with the valve covers off?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Barry_R on June 24, 2015, 05:19:10 AM
Going to agree with Nightmist66 here - I think you can get that cover off.  And you are going to need to.  Might have to loosen the motor mounts and jack/lift it up on that side to rock it a few degrees.  Its a Cammer, so you can remove the cams pretty easily compared to a wedge motor.

Hate to hear that both sides are dry.  My workaround is easiest on the driver side.  I had a customer SOHC that had a habit of eating cam bearings on the driver's side after time.  After having it happen to me I decided to see why.  Took the valve covers off, reinstalled the spark plugs/tubes and ran it without them.  Passenger side threw a huge amount of oil out but the driver's side stayed about the same as on the drill - just a drool from each rocker.  This was a factory block and head combination.  I can promise folks that the chains do not require any extra oiling - it sent a spray across the fenders and onto the walls at 3000 RPM.

I put an AN fitting to the oil filter adapter and ran a piece of braided up to a bulkhead connector mounted to the fuel pump block off plate.  inside the plate I mounted and routed a piece of bent up 1/4" steel tubing (needs to be pretty convoluted to clear sprockets and chains) to connect to the head's front 1/4" NPT oil galley plug.  We now have plenty of oil and the car gets driven around all over Michigan and Ohio.  I took a line from the rear plug across to the rear plug on the other side'd head to connect them, but that might be impossible on your installation depending on access to the rear of the block.  You might need to go through the front cover on the passenger side.

A whole bunch of unanswered questions here still.  But steel cams can often be repolished and repaired, and rockers can definitely be rebuilt - so all is not as bad as it seems dollar-wise. Even if you do end up removing the engine for the repair.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 24, 2015, 06:20:13 AM
If you have to, bring the nose way up and drop the K member a little, there has GOT to be a way.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Bolted to Floor on June 24, 2015, 08:12:52 AM
I feel for ya Jason.   :(
 I would spend some time trying to remove the valve cover before pulling it out of the car.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on June 24, 2015, 09:25:02 AM
Jason, I should have said something about studs in the valve cover holes in a tight engine compartment.  You gotta use bolts if there are clearance issues.  I had to do the same thing with my Galaxie. 

I still think you can get the cover off, like everyone suggests.  Pull the bolt out of the passenger side engine mount, put a wood block on the oil pan on the passenger side, and jack up the engine on that side a few inches.  I think you will get the clearance that you need.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 24, 2015, 10:25:55 AM
Got it off. Wrecked valve cover gasket, but that can be fixed. No oil to this side either. Ran the drill counterclockwise for like 5 min. It looks better than the drivers side. Less discoloration and all rockers are ok. No metal flakes
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on June 24, 2015, 10:39:35 AM
Did you get any oil to the top end when you were priming?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 24, 2015, 01:04:28 PM
Hey all. Update....  Engine is being pulled, crated up and send to Mr. Jay Brown....  Cant wait to find out how badly I screwed up.  ;)

Should have it shipped out the weekend after next.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on June 24, 2015, 03:55:20 PM
Good move Jason.  Jay will get it sorted out!  I agree that the cams will probably polish out just fine.  The needle bearings and rollers on the rockers are probably toast though.

While the engine is set right, it would be good to think of every possible improvement you can make in that engine compartment package.  Then she'll be ready to rock when the engine comes back.

Best of luck with this ambitious project.

- Bill
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 24, 2015, 04:40:56 PM
Thanks bill. Trying to think of that now!  Have an appointment for ceramic coating the headers. Also I want to move the efi computer inside the car and clean up a the wires..... And finally move the radiator forward
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 25, 2015, 11:57:40 AM
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/245-C5840_zpss0atjvc5.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/245-C5840_zpss0atjvc5.jpg.html)

I just went back to the 519 SOHC build page and saw that I have the head gaskets installed correctly.  N/M Jay.....  It was just a thought  LOL

I was also thinking, when I see engine builds, everyones Rods seem to be pushed together pretty tight on the crank journal.  My rods (Eagle Forged H Beam) are installed with the bevel in the rod and the bevel in the bearing facing the crank counterweight....  but I can still pull on each of them, and they slide back and forth on the crank journal....  NO play or "slop" in them, but their combined width is less than the with of the crank journal they bolt around.  Now I know you are supposed to have enough space to slip a feeler gauge between them, but I have never seen ones like mine where you can slide them back and forth that much.  Possibly letting out oil pressure at the crank due to not a tight enough fit?   
Crrank Specs:

The crank is a Forged RPM 4.250 stroke with the 2.200 rod journals

Rod Specs below:


BB Chevy or BB Ford 6.700" Eagle ESP 3-D H-Beam Connecting Rods -7/16 ARP 8740 Rod Bolts - Used in 514 532 557 Ford Stroker, and Big Block Chevy Tall Deck stroker applications
 
   
H-Beam Rod Specs

6.700" Rod Length  Apprx. Gram Weight 810 
2.200" Crank Pin .990" Piston pin
B.E Width .990" Bushed Fit Pins - Full Floating 
 
 
 
 Is saving a few bucks really worth the cost of throwing a rod and blowing your entire engine assembly? No, it’s not! 
Eagle “ESP” 3-D Rods are manufactured from a TWO-PIECE FORGING using USA 4340 Steel.  The forging process forces the grain into the shape of a connecting rod, resulting in a superior fatigue life. The rod cap is forged separately so that the grain runs perpendicular to the load forces, witch strengthens the rod. Although it is a more expensive process, all Eagles 3-D rods are forged form a much higher content of nickel & chrome, witch increases the strength & fatigue life without making the rod brittle. Dollar for dollar, Eagle rods are the best on the planet.

Eagle offers I-Beam & H-Beam rods for Chevy, Ford, Chrysler, Pontiac, and Honda.

Remember, improper torque of the rod bolts will result in premature rod failure.

4340 Forged H-Beam Rod Features
•USA Certified 4340 forged steel 
•2-Piece Forging for increased strength   
•Multi-stage heat treated 
•All surfaces are 100% machined   
•Shot peened to stress relieve the metal 
•Each forging is x-rayed, sonic tested, and magnafluxed to insure quality   
•ARP 8740 7/16 Capscrew bolts   
•Set of 8 brand new rods race ready 
•Rated to 850 HP 
•Optional ARP 2000
 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on June 25, 2015, 12:26:50 PM
I usually come in at .020-.025" side clearance on the rods.  I expect you're somewhere around there too.  You're not bleeding off enough pressure there to kill the top end....
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 25, 2015, 12:43:54 PM
OK so just to keep my mind busy......


1. No oil leaks from outside of block (oil galleys all plugged)

2. Head gaskets installed the correct way (Oil should be getting through in theory)

3. Front and back of each head has a oil galley that was plugged.  (On Jay's build, he plugged the rear but installed oil squirters in the front)

4. No oil galley plug in the valley of the block and there was no Oil galley plug in the distributor hole  (Robert Pond SOHC Block)

5. Car had oil pressure.  Exact # I am unsure as I just purchased the gauge with #'s, but the saleen oil pressure gauge was right in the middle (So there was pressure, but just how much we don't know)

6. Jay's cam journal plug installed (with small amount of RTV) in the #4 cam journal spot - feeds oil to the Passender side head.....  No oil getting to head!

7. Stub cam installed which has an oil groove which allows oil to feel up through the bearing, around the stub cam via the groove, and into the Drivers side head......  No oil getting to head!

8. When using the oil priming tool, and running the drill in the counter clockwise direction, you can feel the drag as its pushing oil ... and you can hear it pouring from somewhere back into the oil pan (So we know that the pump works)....  But the question is where is the oil coming out at such a rate that there is not enough pressure to get to the heads.  Obviously after the oil filter adapter (since that's where the pressure sensor is but before the heads.

I can tell that a few rockers will need to be replaced, for sure cam bearings in each head are toasted!, cams may be able to be polished out (but if jay feels the need, I think we could replace with comp Cam cams.....)  looking down the spark plug tube holes into the combustion chamber, my golden ceramic coated pistons are now all solid black,  Even with Fuel pressure down to 30 PSI, spark plugs (all 8) were solid black(fouled)  and to be completely honest (since its going to be torn all apart again), the helicoils that I installed in the heads... 1 or 2 might even be cross threaded when I put those "Gosh darn" studs in.

Honestly, even knowing that its going to take a few months to get it back.... getting it back from Jay (with Dyno results) will be well worth it.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 25, 2015, 02:57:28 PM
Just got off the phone with T&D....  I feel slightly better.  First off, I was worried that these rockers could only be purchased as a set.  Fortunately, they can be purchased separately.

Secondly, just to know... I asked them about rebuilding.  they said its about $8 to change out the bushings (per rocker) and about $15 to change out the Roller.  Not so bad!  I'm sure Jay will see which are ruined and which are not, but the cost to have them rebuilt is very, very reasonable.  and even buying a new rocker is about $100.00 (per rocker).
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on June 25, 2015, 03:30:15 PM
On the bright side, the rocker rebuilding fee sounds very reasonable. ;) Hope the damage isn't too severe. Best of luck.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: mike7570 on June 25, 2015, 06:01:54 PM

8. When using the oil priming tool, and running the drill in the counter clockwise direction, you can feel the drag as its pushing oil ... and you can hear it pouring from somewhere back into the oil pan (So we know that the pump works)....  But the question is where is the oil coming out at such a rate that there is not enough pressure to get to the heads.  Obviously after the oil filter adapter (since that's where the pressure sensor is but before the heads.


You can hear the oil pouring back from somewhere, is this a side oiler block?
Do you have the block bypass valve and spring in the right way, not backwards?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Barry_R on June 25, 2015, 06:55:32 PM
If you can hear the oil running out you have left out a galley plug - my wager is the one behind the cam sprocket.
Send the entire rocker set to get reworked - guarantee that all of them are distressed.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on June 25, 2015, 07:42:41 PM
It's a Pond SOHC-specific block.  If it is like mine, the lifter bores and oiling passages aren't even drilled, and there is no place for factory relief valve. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 25, 2015, 09:38:01 PM
Yep. Pond block. I will let Jay have at it. Worth nothing not working. Lol. Im starting to disassemble and label as we speak. Going to send it to Jay and whatever he says needs replacing, fixing, etc. is fine by me. Lol.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on June 25, 2015, 09:43:33 PM
I would let jay take it apart...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on June 25, 2015, 09:46:14 PM
I think that's the plan, Jason has to get the engine out of the car first, and I think that's what he meant by disassembling...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on June 25, 2015, 09:57:58 PM
Jason, I have to congratulate you on being calm, cool and collected about this. With all the trials and tribulations you've been through on this build, many guys would be losing it and throwing in the towel about now. I'm glad to see you're dealing with it and pressing onward. My hats off to you, pal.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on June 25, 2015, 11:18:30 PM
+1 here.   Most success stories I've heard have a real low point somewhere in the middle...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: 427Fastback on June 26, 2015, 12:46:50 AM
Agreed..Hang in there and be patient...When I first built my 427 in 1988 I had it sitting at work for a while..It was vandalized at the shop (pretty sure I know who)They poured shit in the engine and it ate it self alive in less than 1500 miles..I had to put in new pistons, bearings and intake valves...After all of this it was sucking oil from the intake seal.I tried 5 different intakes and just as many styles of gaskets...I ended up changing heads and the problem went away.....My point tho is just keep being positive.Its probably something simple..

I think some time on Jays dyno is in order after the repairs are complete..

I know drag week frenzy is going to show its head soon as well....
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on June 26, 2015, 07:55:08 AM
I know drag week frenzy is going to show its head soon as well....

Was thinking the same thing. More patience required Jason.
Commend you so far. 8)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 26, 2015, 10:01:52 AM
Thanks Guys.  Im kind of excited and relieved to have Jay working on it.  I know in advance its going to be a few months away, but this will give me the time (and space) to move the radiator, move the EFI computer (and wiring ) into the car, and clean up some of the wiring mess.

A little sad because I really want to learn as Much as I can.  I love this stuff.  Maybe if Jay has time, he can post some pictures of what I did wrong, what went wrong, and what was damaged as he slowly goes along.....  this way I will know better on the next car I build  LOL  :0)

Im going to be building a wooden crate to ship it in.....  Jay told me of 3 freight carriers he knows of for shipping things as large as an engine.

Still showing the house like 3 times a week to random realtors, so I may be shipping this engine out from my house, but when its done......  might be getting shipped to a new house  HAHAHA

As a side note to what Barry was saying, I think the only 2 galleys on a Pond block that are open behind the stub cam sprocket are the 2 that the car retainer plate bolts go in.  I ordered special low profile 12 point cam retainer plate (even though this engine does not use the retainer plate itself) to plug the holes.  I got the low profile ones so they would not interfere with the back of the stub cam gear.  I believe on a standard 427 block, there is a galley that would plug off a line that runs directly down the center of the valley of the block (But on a SOHC Pond Block, the casting is not opened up).

What is weird to me is that I don't remember there being any oil galleys inside the block that needed to be plugged.  If I left one off the back of the block, it would pour out of the bell housing.  If I left any on the outside, I would see the oil pouring out.  On the front of the block, there was a main oil galley plug that went at the bottom on the drivers side as well as the 2 can retainer bolts which I used the low profile 12 points described above.  Other than that, I drilled and tapped the stock dipstick location to accept a pipe plug.

On the inside of the block, there is the 2 piece Cam plug that Jay made for me (Sandwiches the 4th cam journal) which allows oil to the Passenger side head, and the stub cam with a groove in the # 2 journal which is supposed to allow oil to go to the Drivers Side head.

The only thing (and I cant find a photo) was the Melling Oil pump.  It came with a little bag of stuff to convert the Migh volume pump to high pressure.  I chose not to do this, but I wonder if I was supposed to plug something up?  Doug from precision didn't mention it when I asked him about the little bag, so I just installed.  Maybe there is a galley plug in the oil pump?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: BH107 on June 26, 2015, 02:48:25 PM
Sorry to read about your misfortune, but at least you know what other stuff you need to fix or move and you'll have the time and space to do it. Think of it as a test fit or mock up and now you can detail everything out and be ready to drop it in and play when Jay is done with it.

As far as the dyno goes, are you sending your computer up with it?

It seems to me that at some point you were getting some oil to the heads, because I don't think it would have lasted as long as it did with no oil at all.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 26, 2015, 05:40:40 PM
Good point. I just got off the phone with Doug at precision. He verified oil pumps are ready to run out of the box. That isnt the issue. Said early Pond blocks were off a little on the oil galleys and oil feed holes in the head..... But he said at least the head gaskets are reusable.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 29, 2015, 01:52:14 PM
Ok. Starting to get the engine ready to pull and send it on its way to Jay. Got the headers and collectors off and am bringing them over to the ceramic coater on Wednesday (appt). He said it takes 3 to 4 days. Below are some pictures ofthe tubes. Chris at A C carcraft does nice work:

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/35284C4D-4B84-4919-A73E-41A876A78372_zpsvmhggsnd.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/35284C4D-4B84-4919-A73E-41A876A78372_zpsvmhggsnd.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/3450A762-4D6A-4310-8F6A-ED756084E052_zps2nsl5qwf.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/3450A762-4D6A-4310-8F6A-ED756084E052_zps2nsl5qwf.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/D5EC48B4-941D-4B48-A7AC-E2C9CB2DF176_zpsjzdu8geh.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/D5EC48B4-941D-4B48-A7AC-E2C9CB2DF176_zpsjzdu8geh.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on June 29, 2015, 08:05:29 PM
So you should know by now that 3-4 days actually means about 2 weeks, right? ;D
Looks like a lower grade of stainless. They look like they have some surface rust on them in spots, not that it really matters once they're coated. They also look like they got pretty darn hot. I don't think I've seen stainless turn that dark unless it was darn near glowing red ???

It's really kind of Jay to offer to go over the engine for you. Maybe he'll screw up and send you back his Shelby Cammer engine...lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 29, 2015, 08:16:47 PM
Hahaha. The black on the collector was actually paint. Alog of soot though from therunning rich time. Ceramic coater is hoing to media blast them first, then ceramic coat inside and out, and the bake them to cure

No stainless though. Raw steel
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on June 29, 2015, 08:51:01 PM
Hahaha. The black on the collector was actually paint. Alog of soot though from therunning rich time. Ceramic coater is hoing to media blast them first, then ceramic coat inside and out, and the bake them to cure

No stainless though. Raw steel

Sounds like you found a good powder coater, doing the inside is the best way to go. It should cut down even more under hood heat and keep efficiency of the exhaust flow.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 29, 2015, 09:02:19 PM
Thanks Jared. Never know anymore until after the experience. Lol. Hopefully this guy works out. Progress while i am removing the engine and cleaning upwiring

Dying to get it to Jay. Itwill be months before I get it back, but i really really want to know what I did wrong
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on June 30, 2015, 07:46:19 AM
That's right, I forgot they're steel. That explains the coloring on the tubes as well.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 01, 2015, 01:35:12 PM
OK headed over to the "ceramic" coater during my lunch break.  Once I got there, and unloaded all of the pipes and collectors onto their counter, he then breaks the news that its not truly a ceramic coating..... but rather a heat resistant powder.  In addition, he did not think (after the fact) that he would be able to do a good job.  He gave me the address for the other person in town who does it slightly different.  Something called Jet Hot coating.  Apparently its a true ceramic coating (inside and out) and will hold up past 1800 degrees. 

Once I got to that guys shop, I felt better.  He even knew what  cammer engine was!  It ended up costing about $100.00 more than the first guy, and will take about 3 weeks...... but well worth it especially since I have the time while the engine is off to Jay.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on July 01, 2015, 02:54:32 PM
Yes Jet Hot is a true ceramic coating that some header makers like Hooker use on their top quality headers. And it does work as I was amazed at how much my underhood heat dropped after adding J-H coated Hookers.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: fastback 427 on July 01, 2015, 03:14:37 PM
Is the guy you dropped the headers off doing the blasting and coating himself? Or just sending them off to jet hot then marking up the price? If he's doing it himself I'd make sure they're prepped properly inside and out and coated inside and out as well.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on July 02, 2015, 08:19:50 AM
Sounds like the first guy was simply referring to powder coating, which isn't heat resistant enough.

And I thought that Jet Hot was a specific place of business, and that they did their own prep work to guarantee their work?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 02, 2015, 10:12:13 AM
OK, I spoke with the guy I'm using right now (to clarify).  Yes, you are all correct.  Jet Hot is a specific business (not a type of ceramic coating).  I think I may have misunderstood as he says its a true ceramic coating like Jet Hot.  He is not a Jet hot place of business.

The first place said they did powder coating, and also a heat resistant powder coating.  So yes, I think the first place was not really what I was looking for.  I am grateful that he turned me away when I got there.  He basically said I could do it, but it would peel off.  He sent me over to the 2nd place (Hot Shot Performance).

This guy runs a smaller outfit, but from the look of his shop, he knows his stuff.  His is a true ceramic coating.  They will be media blasting the tubes and collectors and ceramic coating the inside and outside.  it then needs to cure in high temps for a period.

I asked him about the slip joint of the primaries into the collector after its been coated...  He said that it should still slip together even after the coatings.  I should get them back in about 2 - 3 weeks.  I guess you can think of it as a large backlog means the guy has a good business.  The first place told me they would have it done and back to me in 3 days.

In other news, my engine cradle for the Cammer engine arrives tomorrow.  I will be bolting the engine to this cradle and then bolting the whole thing into a custom made engine crate (2 x 4's and plywood)  Found a few already made online, but after measuring the Cammer engine, its really wide, so its wont fit.  Also, we figured it better to build a sturdier crate since shipping this will be a first for me.... and I'm scared it will be damaged in a flimsy crate.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on July 02, 2015, 10:23:50 AM
Be sure to mark  the crate "This Side Up" on all four. No kidding.

If the engine is very secure to the pallet's bottom, it should not make a difference but.....why chance it? 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on July 02, 2015, 10:32:53 AM
Ditto! May want to add fragile just cuz.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: fastback 427 on July 02, 2015, 12:12:34 PM
Not to one up you Jared, but I do snow removal for a custom glass shop, and have seen stickers that say"high claim item" on crates of expensive glass. They are available online.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on July 02, 2015, 01:33:30 PM
You cannot be too careful with shippers.

At the last company I worked for, we built a trade show prototype of a large medical instrument.  It was lovingly packed into a custom built, heavy duty wood crate with all kinds of warning stickers, This Side Up, etc.  We shipped it off FedEx Ground to the customer's trade show.

Unfortunately we forgot the sticker that said, "Hey FedEx Warehouse Grunt.  Do not drive those forklift tines though our crate!!"

That was a $100K disaster, followed by a two-year lawsuit.  It's hard to protect against not giving a crap...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on July 02, 2015, 05:17:01 PM
Not to one up you Jared, but I do snow removal for a custom glass shop, and have seen stickers that say"high claim item" on crates of expensive glass. They are available online.

Yeah, I was thinking about posting using "Fragile- Glass" stickers. That is what I would put on it in many different places, in case they missed the first 13, the 14th might be the charm. ::) Also the "This End Up" stickers on 4 sides. No, you really can't be too careful.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 05, 2015, 09:49:45 PM
OK all....  Got the Coolant drained and removed the fans and shroud, removed the radiator, disconnected all of the pigtails for the transmission (and remarked each with tags and tie wraps).  I pulled the driveshaft so I can unbolt the transmission from the engine.  Lastly I just need to remove the fuel line from the throttle bodies, pull off the throttle bodies, remove the starter, and pull the engine.  Hoping to get this engine shipped out to Jay by Next weekend.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 07, 2015, 02:43:38 PM
OK update (I guess).  Spoke with a few shipping companies so far.  Old dominion refuses to believe that this is a new engine.  They will ship it for like $800.00, but will not insure it at all against damage.  I actually called them back to argue (politely) the point, but they stayed firm.

Second one was YRC freight.  Roughly the same price (791.00), and they will allow you to insure for up to 10.00 per pound....  at 600 pounds, that only $6,000.00 insurance on a 45-50K engine....

I am looking into private shipping companies (through eBay) like U-Ship, but am unsure what their insurance policy is.  At only 1700 miles from me, driving the engine there and then just flying back to FL may be the best route.  Plus no insurance needed as I know I will take care  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on July 07, 2015, 02:55:14 PM
ROAD TRIP :D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on July 07, 2015, 05:23:51 PM
Call this guy, he's my freight broker.  You can insure it for whatever amount you want. 

18593330445 - Matt Bonaime, Exim Cars
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 07, 2015, 10:37:08 PM
Awesome. Thanks
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: mike7570 on July 08, 2015, 12:29:34 AM
Shipped my tunnel port from Calif. to Florida for about $500 on Forward Air. Insured for the full price I sold it for. Just build a very sturdy box for it and drop it off at their facility it needs to be picked up on the other end. They did not deliver.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: drdano on July 08, 2015, 09:32:39 AM
+1 for Forward Air.  Last time I shipped a C6 with them, the nice guys at the shipping facility got a free lunch on me of pizza when their computers went down...that transmission went all the way to the east cost for two Little Cesars $5 pepperonis.  :-)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: BH107 on July 08, 2015, 12:53:06 PM
Yeah, keep shopping around. I LTL freight broker is usually going to be the cheapest, but finding a good one is a gamble unless you get a good referral.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 08, 2015, 08:34:13 PM
Thanks guys. It was 100 degrees today, but i still managed to pull the transmission and engine!!!  Finally the cammer is sitting on the garage floor in its cradle.  I am going to overbuild a crate out of 2x4's and that really thick plywood. I understand its going to be more expensive to ship due to the weight, but worth the piece of mind

Feels good to finally get it out.  Finding help wasnt easy, and after a few no shows and cancellations of "help" , i just calmly tackled it by myself today

Will wait until the engine is on its way to Jay, and then I am going to get started on the radiator relocation and cleaning up all the wiring ( and moving the ECU into the car)

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 25, 2015, 02:32:35 PM
Trick question...... Can anyone spot the reason why my engine was running so rich?????  Hahahaha  I didnt spot it until today when we were crating the engine up:

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/5BBC0A21-C8BE-44BC-9B84-5E69BC86C738_zpsmxemmosm.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/5BBC0A21-C8BE-44BC-9B84-5E69BC86C738_zpsmxemmosm.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/16CAEA3D-8E04-483B-93B1-418036850356_zpsqtxq4qxj.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/16CAEA3D-8E04-483B-93B1-418036850356_zpsqtxq4qxj.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/65EB1E12-DFE2-4F3D-8015-D2A8ABFAEECA_zpsasn7nivm.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/65EB1E12-DFE2-4F3D-8015-D2A8ABFAEECA_zpsasn7nivm.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on July 25, 2015, 03:06:09 PM
Dude.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Bolted to Floor on July 25, 2015, 03:50:41 PM
Whoops!!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on July 25, 2015, 04:00:06 PM
At least it was something simple... ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Barry_R on July 25, 2015, 04:23:34 PM
Bet the IAC was having a fit with that...

Its easy to miss a vacuum leak because the IAC air port is super loud on these.  You never hear the vacuum leak over it.

Now remember that an O2 sensor will often read ANY misfire as being too lean, and these self learning systems will richen the mixture in response no matter what the "correct" direction should be.  In this case it just kept throwing fuel at it and the front holes were probably drowning...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on July 25, 2015, 04:42:54 PM
South American Intake Borers! You gotta watch them pesky critters! ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 25, 2015, 10:55:47 PM
On the bright side, after Jay has worked his MoJo on it, that opening would be a great place for a vacuum nipple to connect the power brakes to !!!!  Rather than the port between throttle bodies  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on July 25, 2015, 11:08:43 PM
Awesome Jason. Keep the positive attitude. Not everyone would be so calm. I agree, it would be a good place for the booster to feed from. Hopefully you will get the other problem figured out soon and get this thing back running even better. Good luck! Are you going to add any more cross bracing to the crate to support it further? Not sure if it will be enough if there is any rough handling and side impacts. Looks like a nice job on it though. ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 25, 2015, 11:43:30 PM
Super sturdy  2 by 4's and thick plywood all around.... No particle board 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on July 26, 2015, 12:09:10 AM
Sounds good.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 27, 2015, 11:20:03 AM
Alright, got my headers back.  Ceramic coated inside and out in flat black.  Looks great!

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/B1F04FA6-9396-47A8-8F14-F6A0D58E7F40_zpsd0gh9a7d.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/B1F04FA6-9396-47A8-8F14-F6A0D58E7F40_zpsd0gh9a7d.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Bolted to Floor on July 27, 2015, 07:18:30 PM
Looks good and where are the last 2 tubes?  ???

Are you going to put them back before the engine comes back or treat it like a jig saw puzzle when it's time to go back in the car?  :o
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on July 27, 2015, 07:31:55 PM
Depending on your screen size, you may have to drag the picture over a little but there are eight tubes there. ;) They do look nice Jason. The powdercoat may even help to tighten up the slip fit for a better seal depending how thick the coating is.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on July 27, 2015, 08:51:39 PM
Looks good!

That coating will make more of a difference than you'd think.  Plus it looks pretty :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Bolted to Floor on July 27, 2015, 09:15:58 PM
Thanks Jared, I wasn't smart enough to scroll over earlier.  ::)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 27, 2015, 09:41:10 PM
Thanks guys  I was actually a little curious about the slip fit after the coating, but carefully trying 1 pipe, still slides in nicely without any force. 

I was just thinking how nice/ easy it would be to install the pipes before dropping the engine back in.  Might be a whole lot easier as well as easier to torque each bolt rather than doing it on my back in a small space

In other news, the plan is to get the engine to Jays at the end of september.  I am going to get started on moving the radiator mounts (bottom) forward about 2 - 2.5"  should be nice to do it in an empty engine compartment.  I also treated the gas tank with Stabil fuel stabilizer since its going to be a few months before I get the engine back .  Dont want the gas to turn bad on me  lol

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 31, 2015, 12:13:46 PM
Alright Boys and Girls....  Getting really close to sending this crated up Cammer engine off to Jay!  I got the measurements off of the crate last night, and with an approximation on the weight (About 600 Lbs), I started making some serious inquiries into quotes.

Step one...  Contacted UPS Freight.  30 minutes on the phone and the quote came in at $3,000.00 without insurance, $3,900.00 with insurance.  I was then told that I could get a discount if I brought it into a local UPS store. 

Step two... I contacted Forward Air in which I couldn't get a live person to get a quote, but rather someone's inbox in Atlanta GA is where I was transferred like 3 times.

Step 3... I contacted Con-Way freight in which there was a very nice lady who helped me come up with the following quote.  $1,208.33 for 3 day shipment to Rogers MN (At least their closest facility/Dock for pickup) and an additional $420.00 for the insurance.  So far this seems to be the least expensive with a well known freight shipment company.  I got a quote # from her and if I decide to go this route after a few more calls, I will be sending it to Jay about September 17th (Luckily our home closing is on September 25th, and the whole house needs to be empty by then  LOL

Keep you posted, but I am literally dying to see what Jay finds pulling this apart as well as on the Dyno after he's worked his Minnesota Mo-Jo!!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on August 31, 2015, 12:31:31 PM
I'm really surprised its that much.  Give Forward Air a chance, they are usually the least expensive...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on August 31, 2015, 12:44:01 PM
If you take a road trip Jason, you will be able to meet the man, the myth, the legend......
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 31, 2015, 12:48:56 PM
Thanks Jay.  Ill make a few more calls.  Forward air was suggested by a few people on this post, so worth the call.  Also, I checked the dimensions, and the crate should fit in your truck   ;D

( 3'7" X 3'10" X 3'3"(height)) 

I was thinking that Jared (and was planning) but with the closing on our house happening, and having to move up to North Florida, it might be easier to ship.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Barry_R on August 31, 2015, 02:51:43 PM
PM me your shipping info - that price is way out of line.  I will have my freight guy get us a quote for insured shipping with lift gate at both ends.  I wager he will be 50% of that price - or less.  He is a broker, but the truck is always a recognized shipper - Roadrunner, Saia, FedEx Freight, etc.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on August 31, 2015, 05:52:25 PM
Yep, ridiculously high.  Need to find someone else, or take Barry or myself up on using a broker.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 02, 2015, 12:12:08 PM
Thanks Barry and Brent.  Barry, I PM'd you with the information.  Thanks again
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 07, 2015, 02:01:53 PM
OK all,

Thanks for hanging in there and thanks for everyones input/help with the shipping.  Barry was able to get me hoooked up with shipping to Jays for the Cammer engine.  It should be picked up on September 22nd (and we are supposed to be completely moved out of this house by the 24th!  LOL  talk about cutting it close).  Now I am not only dying to see all of Jays Drag Week posts, but now also his exploration and rebuild of my cammer!  LOL

Keep you all posted and Big thanks again to Barry R.!!!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 19, 2015, 07:36:41 PM
Alright all.  Quick update.  My house is now completely empty ( closing is in 4 days) and the only item remaining item is a SOHC motor in a crate dead center of the garage (shipper comes in 3 days)!!!  I will feel tons better when this engine is on its way to our Drag Week winning leader!

Should be at Jays by Friday, and Im curious to see what I did right and also what I dis wrong.  Just a few more days now. ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on September 19, 2015, 08:20:01 PM
Maybe he'll trade you even up with the engine in his Shelby clone? It never hurts to ask ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on September 20, 2015, 04:01:01 PM
Maybe he'll trade you even up with the engine in his Shelby clone? It never hurts to ask ;)

Dude, you are a DREAMER  ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 20, 2015, 09:43:23 PM
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 21, 2015, 09:06:45 PM
Alrighty Boys.  Finishing touches on the crate.... Freight shipper due to pick her up tomorrow! 

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jmlay on September 22, 2015, 06:42:50 AM
Might want to put a note on the crate stating not to stack or it may end up with an elephant on top.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 22, 2015, 02:13:00 PM
Good point.  As soon as I read your post, I marked the crate up with "Do Not Stack".  In other exciting news, its on its way to Jay!!!

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/8A198880-80C2-42D0-B71E-2DFBE2C3708F_zpsn0yjdee7.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/8A198880-80C2-42D0-B71E-2DFBE2C3708F_zpsn0yjdee7.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 30, 2015, 03:04:04 PM
Alrighty boys and girls.  Doc Brown is in receipt of the engine.  Another shout out to Barry for his help with the shipping.  Jay thinks he will be able to get into it in a week so.  As I get any information on items I may or may not have damaged in my attempt to be a Cammer Superstar, I will share with the group.  Hopefully it will just be rebuilding all of the rockers and polishing the Cam Shafts.....  I am unsure how far down the oiling problem went, so hopefully the Crankshaft wont be damaged.

My other thought was my math/measurements on the main bearing clearances.  I was thinking that if I had then to tight, the engine would run hotter..... and that would make sense that it would idle so hot.  I saw that Jays ran fairly cool at highway speeds (160? if I remember correctly ), but on my trial run in which things started to go wrong, I was still in the 200's at speed.

What would be really nice is that Jay finds the main bearings did not have proper clearance, then with the proper clearance (and the ceramic coated headers), the engine will run and idle cooler....  I would then be able to put on the smaller original SPAL fans I had which did not need to be clearance for the power steering pump.  This would mean I can leave the radiator where it is and not cut and re-weld the mounts any further forward.

But I am getting carried away!  LOL  Lets see what Jay finds and if that's a side affect, then that would be just peachy!

Until I have updates....  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: thatdarncat on September 30, 2015, 03:12:50 PM
Keep in mind Jay is running a much larger radiator, and his engine compartment in the '69 Shelby clone is more "open" with no inner fender panels, etc.  We're all interested in following this, I hope it goes well.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 30, 2015, 04:34:43 PM
Good point on the heat issue.  I guess the more room the better.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Hemi Joel on October 01, 2015, 02:04:01 PM
I don't see tight bearings as a source of heat. More like a source of spun bearings. Take a closer look at the radiator size and air flow.

Your cammer is in good hands with Jay. :D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 01, 2015, 03:15:55 PM
Thanks Joel.  Also like Ross was saying, uncoated headers with no breathable room in the engine bay.   ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 12, 2015, 10:26:47 AM
Alright guys.  Update.  Jay has got the cammer uncrated and up on an engine stand.  Hopefully more details to come in the near future!!! Its exciting, and honestly I wish I was there to learn from the man first hand.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 19, 2015, 10:50:15 AM
OK Jay was able to get the engine torn down and found the issue (s).....

After pulling the distributor, intake and front cover, he ran the oil priming tool to see why I was not getting any oil to the top.  You can hear the pump is working because you can hear the oil splashing and pouring down into the pan.  After pulling off a few more "bits", Jay found the issue.....  The cam bearings.

So long story short, the 427 SOHC block I purchased from Robert Pond has special sized Cam Bearings in the block.  Unfortunately my block was missing the cam bearings when I purchased it so I called up Mr. Pond to get a set shipped to me.  After speaking with him, it was no problem at all and he sent me out a set.  I get the cam bearings and open them up.....  4 cam bearings and not 5. This is actually correct since the Robert Pond Aluminum 427 SOHC race block does not have the oil passages machines in the 5th cam journal.

Fast forward 1 year, and I take my block to get machined at the machine shop in Boynton Beach.  After the back and forth with not having to correct torque plates, and other assorted issues with machining my block, I get a call at work one day from the owner.  He is asking me why there are not 5 cam bearings.  I went over the process with him step by step explaining that I will only be using the cam journals on #1, #2, and #4  (1 and 2 are for the stub cam and #4 is where Jays plug goes so the oil feeds up to the head.  I also explained that the #3 cam bearing needs to be installed clocked so that the oil passage does not line up with the hole so that no oil comes out of that galley.  We went over this for a good 20 minutes because he was not familiar with this engine (which I would assume not a lot of them come across the table in any machine shop), but when I hung up, I was pretty sure he had it and would be ok.

1st Mistake....  When I picked up my block, I did not check to make sure all was ok.....  I realize that a few people on this forum told me to bring calipers with me and make sure all is correct before I leave, but I was so excited to get my block back (and after his explanation of how this was taking a long time because he wanted to do it right and needed all of these special tools and hones for this specific block.  I left without checking.

Unfortunately, the #3 cam bearing in the block was installed so that the oil feed holes were aligned and when you run the oil primer tool, that's the oil sound you hear.....  oil gushing out of the #3 cam journal. (As a side note, Jay hooked up an oil pressure gauge to the oil filter adapter and got 10PSI.  My Saleen has the "Dummy gauge" I believe Ross mentioned (?) where any oil pressure shows on the gauge as perfect.  I did take the advise given and purchased 3 more gauges including Oil pressure, Oil temperature, and coolant temp, but the engine konked out before their arrival.

2nd Mistake.....  Even though Mr. Pond Sent me the correct # of Cam Bearings (and the correct size), from Jays findings, they were not for the SOHC.( possible mixup at the machine shop? )  They had the one oil feed hole in the cam bearing and not the 2 (or sometimes 3) needed for the side oiler engine.  There is supposed be to be an oil hole in the bearing at the 6 Oclock position and then at 90 degrees from that (Side oiler).  Unfortunately these only had the one feed hole on the bottom (Machine shop did not catch this and I sure didn't ).  So not only was the oil pouring out of the #3 cam journal (Empty with the oil feed holes aligned) but there as no oil being fed up to either head once the oil came into the cam tunnel..... Voila! instant destruction!

OK so far Jay says that the cams are toast!  So much so, that a few of the 2 piece cam shells that allow the Cams to rotate in the heads are welded together from the heat.  Where the Rockers rid eon the cam lobes is also pretty bad so I am going to get a set of Jays Cams instead of the ones I had (Since I had a rough time with those as the Timing marks on them were like 180 degrees off!)

Right now, I am working with Jay to get the Rockers (All of them) sent off to T & D Machine Products to be completely rebuilt.  Also, I am calling Mr. Pond to get another set of Cam Bearings specific to the SOHC block sent out to Jay.

"Doctor Brown" will also be taking the heads and Block to the machine shop to make sure the valve guides are all ok as well as (Most Likely) a good cleaning.  He will also be bringing in the Crankshaft to have 0.010" machined off to ensure they are perfectly round (I was warned that the RPM Forged Cranks tend to not be perfect out of the box, but as I measured them with the dial calipers (not well, obviously), I thought they were all good. 

** As a side note, maybe the machine shop will also be able to remove the broken off bolt in the water jacket near the water pump as well as clean up the threads on the block (I may have almost stripped a few) as well as the threads on the heads where I tried to install the Helicoils....  After I did so, the intake still did not line up and I am pretty sure I may have stripped a few of those as well to get the Studs down in there. 

Better to let these skeletons out of the closet now so they are caught at the right time!  :0)



Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on October 19, 2015, 12:21:26 PM
Sounds like it could have been a lot worse Jason.  The cams, cam bearings, and rocker rebuild will be some $$$, but at least it seems nothing else is destroyed.  Hopefully the cam bearing bores in the heads aren't too bad.

Jay will have that beast back in top shape.  If anybody knows how to improvise, he does!

- Bill
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 19, 2015, 01:48:04 PM
Jason gave a really good description of what I found; the cam bearings (in the block) were the culprit.  I was quite surprised that the standard FE topoiler bearings were in the engine, and not the sideoiler bearings; a regular 427 sideoiler wedge FE would have burned up the valvetrain too if it had been fitted with those bearings.  I was also surprised that some of the cam bearing shells were welded together; man it must have been hot in there!  The ones that did come apart were toast.  Here's some pictures:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/jtb001.jpg)

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/jtb002.jpg)


After I got the stub cam out I looked into the cam tunnel and thought I could see that the #3 cam bearing had the hole in position to line up with the oil passage in the block.  Since there was no #3 cam journal, this was a problem, obviously.  After I got the crank out, I confirmed this issue:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/jtb005.jpg)


I also noticed that the main bearings looked funny, with shiny spots in some areas and no visible wear in others.  Pretty sure that this is the crank; the bearings are std/std, and those RPM cranks are notorious for taper and out of round issues.  So we'll get the crank ground 10/10 and use oversize bearings.

Fortunately the cylinders bores look pretty much perfect, and I'm thinking we might be able to get away with cleaning and re-installing the pistons and rings as they are.  Since the bottom end was oiled and had that leak, I'm guessing the cylinder wall condition is from lots of oil.  The chambers and piston tops are black, because the vacuum leak that Jason had while running the engine made the EFI unit add a bunch of fuel, but I think the oil from the bottom end kept the cylinder walls well lubricated, preventing any scoring.

Really the only thing left to do is to disassemble the heads and look at the valves and guides; hopefully they are OK.  Then its off to the machine shop with the parts.  Here's a picture of my shop after the disassembly process. 

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/jtb003.jpg)

Time for another cleanup LOL!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on October 19, 2015, 02:00:34 PM
Jay - Are those iron cams?  They don't look like the new billet ones I've seen.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 19, 2015, 03:47:12 PM
There is some evidence of copper cladding left on the ends of the cams, Bill, so I think they are billets.  I will have to look again to be sure...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 19, 2015, 03:53:36 PM
Hi guys.  They are advertised as bearing grade billet cams 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on October 19, 2015, 05:49:46 PM
Glad to see all problems were found and can be resolved. Best of luck on the rebuild.

Jay, do you have any pics of the main bearings? Thanks for posting all of this.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on October 20, 2015, 01:24:12 PM
Definitely a bad but still very good teardown. If you had driven the car much, you would have likely ended up with seized cams or valves which would have caused a catastrophic domino effect. I'm surprised Pond sent the wrong bearings, but a lesson to be learned by everyone whose watching is to not deal with a machine shop that isn't familiar with FE's. I'm happy to see you sticking with this project because I think it'll be pretty cool when it's done.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 20, 2015, 02:03:14 PM
Thanks. Unfortunately I am not sure if pond sent the wrong bearings or my machine shop mixed up and installed the wrong bearings.  Live and learn   ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: KMcCullah on October 20, 2015, 03:10:22 PM
Jay/Jason-It looks like a plug is in the #4 cam bearing hole. Wouldn't that plug need a groove around the outside of it to send oil up to the head? And the #2 cam bearing would need a groove to send oil up to the other head? Or does the stub cam have a groove in the #2 journal? And #3 and #5 just get plugged? I'm trying to get this Cammer oiling straightened out in my pointy head. This is waaay different than a wedge FE.   ??? 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 20, 2015, 03:26:48 PM
The #4 bearing (if it was the correct one) is the same as any #4 sideoiler cam bearing if you are using the plug.  The plug is actually a two piece affair, one side inserted from the front and the other from the back, and then bolted together; there is a gap in the middle between the two plug halves.  The oil will come up through the center hole in the block, through the bottom hole in the cam bearing, fill up the space between the plug halves, and then go out through the other hole in the cam bearing, up through the block passage to the head.

Unfortunately Jason's cam bearings were for a standard top oiler FE, so there is only the one hole, to line up with the bottom hole in the block.  I'm sure the area between the plug halves had plenty of oil, but it had nowhere to go  ::)

The factory SOHCs used a different approach, where the outside of the cam bearing was grooved around about 90 degrees of the outside circumference.  The groove was about 0.100" wide and about 0.030" deep.  You lined up the groove so that it intersected both holes in the block, and oil would transfer from the center hole in the block around to the hole leading to the heads.  The holes in that cam bearing would be misaligned with the holes in the block in this case.

I don't like the factory oiling setup with that grooved cam bearing because I have spent some time monitoring the oil pressure in the heads, with a couple of gauges on the dyno.  The head that is oiled with the grooved cam bearing is always about half the oil pressure of the other head.  So the plug arrangement solves this problem, eliminating the groove in the back of the cam bearing as a restriction.

The other head oils just like a standard 427 side oiler; the stub cam has a groove in it to transfer oil to the head.  Of course, that won't work either if the wrong cam bearings are used.

And yes, #3 and #5 just get plugged by putting in the cam bearings and misaligning the holes in the bearings to the block.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: KMcCullah on October 20, 2015, 04:21:57 PM
Thank you for explaining Jay. I get it now.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Barry_R on October 20, 2015, 04:38:05 PM
You are working too hard.  :)

Use a die grinder and a small diameter cut off wheel to make a connector (partial annular) groove between the cam feed and the cylinder head feed - just like a 390 or CJ but not all the way around.  Now you can rotate the cam bearing as a block off like the other ones and still get plenty of oil to that head.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 20, 2015, 05:33:37 PM
You have a good picture of that in your book Barry.   ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on October 20, 2015, 08:27:37 PM
Jason, if I were you I'd take those old cams and hang them on the wall and tell people you trashed them when you had them in your nitro burning supercharged SOHC dragster that you sold a few years back ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 20, 2015, 09:04:52 PM
Good idea Doug.  A couple more and I can make windchimes   :o
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Stangman on October 20, 2015, 09:49:40 PM
God forbid
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 21, 2015, 03:20:45 PM
Hey Guys.  Short update.  Rockers are already on their way to T & D Machine Products for inspection and rebuild.  We are sending them all in just to be sure....

Ordered a new set of cam bearings from Robert Pond (By way of Keith Craft).  They were shipped out to Jays yesterday.  We are well on our way gentlemen :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: R-WEST on October 22, 2015, 02:21:17 PM

Jay, since you're fixing things, and your shop is already a mess, I got this Chinese go-kart for my niece a couple years ago that has a Chinese/Honda clone engine in it that ran for a while then made a loud 'clank' and shut off - can I ship it up there for you to work on in your spare time?    ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 22, 2015, 09:50:39 PM
Well, I don't know.  Does it have a cammer in it?  ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 02, 2015, 07:35:46 PM
Small update.  I spoke with Jay today (who had just heard back from T & D Machine Products).  They inspected my rocker arms today and its the worst case possible.  All 16 rockers are beyond repair.  The adjusters are seized, needle bearings screwed up some other parts, etc.  Long story short, instead of $15 dollars a piece to rebuild, its a complete replace.  I called up Steve at T & D and had to purchase another whole set of Rockers, spacer clips, and the rocker shafts.  Jay and Steve both agreed that replacing the clips and rocker shafts was the safer bet and at only $100.00 more, it just makes sense.

Sadly, another set of Rockers and such was $2,600.00 OUCH!

In other news, the Heads and block are going our for inspection and cleanup soon, and the crank is going out to be turned down a little.  In talking to Jay, he thinks we can do a little better on the Cam Shafts that will need to be purchased.  Since the Factory spec ones I originally had are goners, and a new set will need to be purchased, Jay is going to try and put maybe a little more aggressive cam profile to it?  I trust in Obi won-JAYnobi.

Definitely an unexpected expense having to replace all of the rockers for sure, but whenever the cost gets me down, I go to youtube and starting playing Cammer engine videos.  Works every time.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on November 03, 2015, 09:49:01 AM
Wow
Sorry Jason
Was wondering what was going on with  it.
Well, at least you know you have big brass balls for trying a cammer as your first build. ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on November 03, 2015, 01:53:02 PM
What I think is remarkable is that the professional engine building shop screwed this up.  They are the ones who put in the cam bearings in the block.  If it wasn't for that, I think Jason's engine would have been fine for the most part, even though it was his first build. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 03, 2015, 02:14:56 PM
Thanks guys.  Yea,  i think the cam tunnel bearings screwed me.  At least I know more about building FE engines now than when I began.  I love learning about this stuff.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 04, 2015, 02:19:54 PM
OK update.  I will try and be as thorough as Jay has been with me.

To start, The block will not need to visit the Machine Shop.  The block was Line honed when I originally got it machined.  I also had the bores honed out to 4.250 as well (just to refresh memories).  The line hone of the block was holding it up at the time because the block is aluminum but the beefy Robert Pond main caps are steel.  The machine shop at the time had to send away for a special hone that could handle the material.  In the end, the block just probably needs a good cleaning and fixing and chasing of all of the threads in each bolt hole.

2nd  piece of news was the heads.  They obviously were not getting any oil.  Due to this, the springs (all of them) and the spring locks had discoloration associated with excessive heat.  Jay disassembled the heads, and in testing the spring tension, they came up between 400 - 600 lbs of opening pressure.  Since it would seem that all of the springs would need to be close to the same pressure, we will be getting a brand new set of springs and locks.
Also, after removing the springs, a few of the valves were slightly difficult to remove.  Jay thinks that it may either be that with the lack of oil, they galled up the valve guides (may need replacing or honing), or they may just have burnt up the assembly lube that was on them after the build and the carbon buildup has "stuck" them in the guides.  This will be for the machine shop to decide, but we may have the ability to get some spare valve guides from Keith Craft's shop if they need replacing (Since he replaced all of the guides on my heads when he did the 3 angle valve job).  We will know more after the machine shop has a look.

The crankshaft is getting turned down a bit as well so it will be off the machine shop at the same time.

For now, "Dr. Brown" is thinking about a good combination for this engine as we will be ordering new cams and Springs.  Something slightly more aggressive than a factory grind may be in order ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 12, 2015, 05:16:24 PM
We have chosen a cam!  As per the Comp Cams spec sheet:

Ford 427 SOHC
Std. Lift - Street Rated Duration @ 0.020" Valve Lift
Rated Duration: 296     
Durtation in degrees:
     @0.050 = 272
     @0.200 = 216
Valve Lift: 0.598
Valve Lift @ TDC:
     106* = 0.214
     110* = 0.188
Check Duration Tappet@ 0.050 = 260
Check Lift Tappet = 0.477
Lift w/fixed ratio = 0.606

Hopefully we hear good news from the Machine Shop on the Heads, specifically not needing new valve guides.  Hopefully a little honing is all thats needed.   ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 19, 2015, 11:46:19 AM
OK.  Small update.  On the list of items that were "trashed", we have a new addition!.  All of the valves need to be replaced.  LOL  Luckily, 4 years ago, I managed to buy an extra set of valves from Keith Craft (in anticipation that I would be breaking stuff).  Sadly, on my attempt to degree the cams, I bent 3 intake valves and had to dip into my extra set for replacements.  Now, All of the valves need to be replaced.  Luckily I was able to source 3 brand new intake valves that will complete my set, and I will be shipping them off to Jay either today or tomorrow.

In other sad news, the valve stems are trash too.  When I got these coon heads, they were not set up for 11/32 guides.  When I brought them to Keith Craft in Arkansas for the valve job, he said that he had to replace the valve guides to work with the Ferrea valves he would be installing.  Unfortunately, when Jays Machine shop dug into the heads, they found that the valve guides were just "sleeved", and that this was done poorly.  We are now having to have correct valve guides (11/32) custom machined.  At least we will know the right stuff has been installed this time  :0)

So to sum it up, this is where we are currently.  The heads and block are in good shape... no damage!  Cams will be replaced with Comp Cams, rockers and rocker shafts are being replaced with brand new T & D units, Brand new Intake and exhaust valves all the way around, New Springs and retainers (Comp cams), new valve job to be done on the heads, New Bearings all the way around with the cam bearings in the heads, Cam bearings in the block (special Robert Pond bearings), and main bearings.  Crank is being turned down to ensure it is not out of round.  This is where we are currently.  We are a few weeks out on the valve guides, so in that time frame, Jay is coming up with a list of all the little things we will need for assembly and I will get them all ordered up and sent out to him.

Good stuff!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: 57 lima bean on November 19, 2015, 03:45:59 PM
As of 11/19/15     (Read 97567 times) Wish I had your money cobracammer ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on November 19, 2015, 05:30:24 PM
When I brought them to Keith Craft in Arkansas for the valve job, he said that he had to replace the valve guides to work with the Ferrea valves he would be installing.  Unfortunately, when Jays Machine shop dug into the heads, they found that the valve guides were just "sleeved", and that this was done poorly. 

It seems that I've read plenty of stuff over the last year or 2 about Craft doing shoddy work. And Brent said he sold out and got out of the engine business, which sounds like a good thing. He used to do good work from what I had seen, but apparently that had changed somewhere along the line.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 22, 2015, 03:28:36 PM
Hey Doug, that's Interesting. Wonder why he sold?  If I remember correctly, his shop is actually on the same property where his home was.  I wonder who purchased it.  In other news, I managed to come up with another new in the box complete set of Ferrea light weight Valves for the cammer engine.  They are currently on their way to Jay.  We are almost ready to start ordering bearings and gaskets for the build. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: BH107 on November 23, 2015, 02:46:10 PM
I've heard reviews both ways... Know a guy with a very strong KC engine in his Cobra, and heard of problems as well.

Brent said on the other forum that Keith sold out the engine business to an employee.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 28, 2015, 12:32:20 PM
Hey all.  I hope that everyone had a GREAT Thanksgiving!!!!  Happy Holidays to everyone!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 08, 2015, 05:17:20 PM
Hello All,

Small Update.  Jay said that the custom machined valve guides are on their way.  Hopefully he gets them in this week and will bring them over to the machine shop to have them installed in the heads.  We are currently still awaiting the delivery of the Cams, springs, and retainers from Comp Cams.  Hopefully they arrive this week as well.  We are hoping that the machine shop will also have some information on the Crank Shaft so that I can put in the order for bearings and such.  Good times ahead.  As for now, the Saleen is still stored with a tank full of premium fuel infused with Fuel stabilizer for the long harsh Florida winter!  I will keep you all posted. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: gdaddy01 on December 08, 2015, 05:30:41 PM
probably get down to 45 degrees
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Hemi Joel on December 08, 2015, 09:48:10 PM
... for the long harsh Florida winter!  I will keep you all posted.

I feel for you, having to endure that harsh Florida winter. Dont get too sunburnt!
  Lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 15, 2015, 07:07:57 PM
OK got a few things ordered up the other day and on their way to Jay's.  With a visit to PrecisionOilPumps, I ordered up a complete set of Gaskets, Intake gasket, Valve Cover Gaskets, and the cam shells for the heads. 

As soon as we hear back on the Crankshaft from the machine shop, we will get the main bearings and the rod bearings ordered up and on their way.  Also, we are still awaiting the cams ordered from Comp.  :0)

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on December 15, 2015, 11:31:56 PM
I was at the machine shop yesterday dropping off the valves and guides for Jason's heads, and my machinist showed me some failures in the valve seats that I have never seen before.  Check out the outside diameter of the seats, which are all chipped and cracked:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/vseats1.jpg)

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/vseats2.jpg)

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/vseats3.jpg)

Notice that all these chips are on the very outside edge of the seats, not where the valve seals against the seat.  I have never seen seats look like this before.  My machinist thinks that the seats themselves may have been defective from the start.  He is afraid that they will continue to chip and crack if we leave them in, and will eventually lose press fit and come out.  We are going to replace them, but I wanted to know if anyone has seen this issue before?  Its a very strange failure...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on December 16, 2015, 12:37:24 AM
I'd like to hear the story of where those seats came from and how they were installed.  They sure look like powder metal to me! 

I wonder if there is excessive press-fit.  No doubt those would have cracked and fallen out over time.  I've seen failures like this in OEM stuff (Escort engines) but never in a performance build like this!

- Bill
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on December 16, 2015, 12:44:10 AM
Pretty sure those seats came with the heads; maybe Jason can confirm...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 16, 2015, 09:14:49 AM
I believe they did.  I am pretty sure they were already installed and Keith Craft just did a 3 angle valve job on them.  I was looking for the receipt to be sure.

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/709B5BC9-0194-42CE-BE77-BD6A42F295AD_zpsvcpigcvi.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/709B5BC9-0194-42CE-BE77-BD6A42F295AD_zpsvcpigcvi.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on December 16, 2015, 03:15:34 PM
Looks like the seats did come with the heads.  Scary...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on December 16, 2015, 04:03:56 PM
Machined steel does not flake apart like that.  They must be sourced powder metal (from Federal-Mogul or the like).

The original ones in my iron SOHC heads are beryllium copper.  You can still get those for some engines, but the stuff is toxic and nasty to machine.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on December 16, 2015, 04:22:44 PM
Wow, didn't know Ford way back them fooled with beryllium copper, even in engines destined for racing. Was it to improve longevity? Did the straight valve Ford FE heads on the GT-40's (II's and IV's) also have b-c seats?

I read long ago that b-c dust was highly toxic and a few firm's machinists found out the hard way with terrible lung infections.   

https://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19990902.html
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 16, 2015, 04:33:55 PM
I just read that they found a substitute for B-C seats by infusing copper with Nickel and silicon.  Oddly, they still make B-C seats ( Audi and Mitsubishi were 2 I found)  hard to believe you would find someone to machine them for you  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: CaptCobrajet on December 18, 2015, 07:16:32 AM
After looking at that, the thought came to mind that the top angle could have originally been machined to a razor sharp edge at the o.d. of the seat, which may have been slightly proud in the chambers.  Hotspots could have caused detonation to pepper the outer edges. JMO.  I try to make sure there are no sharp edges at that transition.  Sometimes it means taking another tool to knock that edge off.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Barry_R on December 18, 2015, 08:57:55 AM
I tend to agree with Blair on this one.  Looks like they chipped out from the OD.  Probably tried to blend the upper edge of the valve job to the chamber and had a proud or dead level sharp edge with no cross section.  Since we know that the engine had issues, detonation could have knocked the edges off & left something looking like that.  I'd be surprised to find a PM seat in an aftermarket part.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on December 18, 2015, 09:52:59 AM
Thanks guys, I appreciate the feedback.  I'll make sure my machinist watches that particular issue on these heads - Jay
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on December 18, 2015, 07:31:40 PM
Bill Coon called me after hearing about this thread.  Here's the information I got:

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 20, 2015, 11:03:46 PM
OK, so we heard back on the crank and the mains and rod journals had to get a 0.01 grind.  With that info in hand, the rod bearings and main bearings were ordered and are already on their way to Jay.  As of this moment, all is accounted for and all gaskets, bearings and etc. have been ordered!!  Next to come is the fun part!!!  Happy Holidays to everyone!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Drew Pojedinec on December 23, 2015, 11:58:05 AM
Jason, let me be the first to say:
For a 1.5 year long, $50k project, I've been watching since it began....  This is perhaps the most absurd first major engine build to take on.
Part of me shakes my head in disbelief, part of me just wants to shake your hand.  Aside from the incredibly difficult and expensive engine build you chose to put it into an incredibly expensive and difficult to work in vehicle.  I'm continually amazed that you stuck with it this entire time.
Either way, good job, the end is near, stick with it.  At the end of the day you are certainly going to have something in the garage NO one has ever seen before.

Good luck!
Drew
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 24, 2015, 01:15:09 AM
Thanks Drew.  Its been and continues to be an adventure!!  Happy holidays!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Jim Comet on December 24, 2015, 02:13:19 PM
Would it be possible to see a photo of the chambers with the new seats as a comparison to the pics with the powdered metal seats when you get the heads back?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on December 24, 2015, 02:46:56 PM
Sure Jim, I'll post some pictures when the heads get finished - Jay
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Joe-JDC on December 24, 2015, 06:49:12 PM
According to what Bill said, it should have been simple to do a new fresh valve job with a cutter that is larger than the seat material and lower it to the chamber with a simple radius.  If the original seats were standing proud, they needed to be machined down at least level with the combustion chamber.  Would require checking the installed height and adding a .010 shim under the springs.  Joe-JDC
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on January 18, 2016, 11:57:16 PM
OK, in speaking with Jay, his Machine Shop called him to let him know the Crankshaft was done and ready for pickup.  As we are still awaiting the Cams from Comp and the Heads from the Machine shop (and the cam shells from Precision), the plan is to ready the bottom end now that all of the "items" necessary have come together!  Maybe if "Dr. Brown" has an extra hand during assembly, we may see some pictures ?  LOL  And now the fun begins!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on January 24, 2016, 09:48:47 PM
Finally got some work done on this project this weekend, and of course ran into another setback  :(  Before I go into the details, I want to address something that Joe mentioned, regarding cutting the seats to bring them back flush with the chamber, assuming that they were originally proud of the chamber surface.  I thought that was a good idea and that it might remove the chipped areas of the seat, so this week when I went to the shop to pick up the crank, I took a closer look at the heads.  Unfortunately, the broken parts of the seat were well below the chamber surface, and a straightedge placed on the final cut on the seat lined up perfectly with the chamber surface.  From this it appears to me that the seats were not originally proud of the chamber surface, and they just disintegrated of their own accord.  In any case, we will be replacing those sub-standard powdered metal seats with more performance oriented ductile iron seats.

The crank work had taken a lot longer than I expected, and I found out why when I picked it up.  It turns out that because the #3 main bearing was not oiling in this engine, the thrust surface of the crank was starved for oil.  It was fairly significantly worn, something like .020" beyond spec.  So, instead of just grinding the crank 10/10 and making it ready for assembly, the thrust surface of the crank had to be welded, then machined back into spec, before the crank could be ground 10/10.  But finally it was done, and I brought it back home to get ready to re-assemble the short block.

Yesterday afternoon I got started with rebuilding this engine.  I pulled out all the plugs, and scraped most of the remaining gasket material and sealer from the block, and then started work on the cam bearings.  I had previously looked at the #2 and #4 cam bearings and knew that they didn't have the proper holes to line up with the oil galleries in the side oiler block.  However, when I pulled out the #3 cam bearing, I was surprised to see that the #3 bearing did have the proper holes for the #2 or #4 positions!  So it appears that whoever put the cam bearings in this block did have the correct set, because one of the bearings was for a side oiler.  Since there is no #5 cam bearing in the Pond block, probably the shop just didn't install the other cam bearing with the multiple holes.  Bottom line is whoever put the cam bearings in this block really had no idea what they were doing. 

I went ahead and installed the new cam bearing set that Jason had provided.  I was very careful to make sure that the oil holes for the #2 and #4 cam bearings lined up properly with both holes in the block.  I like to put a welding rod down through the hole in the block deck, and see it slide into the cam bearing bore, to prove to myself that the holes are lined up correctly.  I took a picture of each of the key cam bearings with the welding rod stuck through it; photos below:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/bdmcambrg1.jpg)

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/bdmcambrg2.jpg)

Next I installed the #3 cam bearing, making sure that the oil hole in the block was NOT lined up with the hole in the bearing (this was another major error in the original shop's cam bearing installation, because of course there is no #3 journal on the stub cam, so oil just spit out of the hole into the crankcase, failing to oil the #3 main bearing).  Finally I installed the front cam bearing, making sure both holes lined up there also.  The front cam bearing was the only one that the original shop had installed correctly.

I don't know why, but for some reason when I'm laying in bed trying to get to sleep, I get to thinking about the current project and potential problems and/or solutions will come to me.  Saturday night, for some reason, I started thinking about the #1 cam bearing.  I realized I hadn't checked for distributor clearance after I'd installed it.  In some cases with aftermarket blocks and their required cam bearings, the cam bearing will protrude into the hole for the distributor, blocking the distributor installation.  I made a mental note to check for that before I fell asleep.

Sunday morning, first thing I did was flip the block over and look in the distributor hole.  Sure enough, there was the cam bearing sticking into the distributor hole!  See the arrow in the picture below:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/2bigcb.jpg)

The distributor wasn't going to go in like that.  I pulled the front cam bearing back out, and compared it to the one that I had previously removed:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/2bigcb2.jpg)

The new bearing was much, much wider than the original bearing.  Fortunately, since the original bearing had gotten a good supply of oil when the engine was running, it was in very good shape, so rather than try to modify the new bearing to fit, I re-installed the original bearing to solve the problem.

Next I installed the aluminum block-offs for the #4 cam bearing, to keep the oil from coming out into the crankcase.  These are the two discs visible behind the cam bearings in the previous photo.  They bolt together around the #4 cam bearing, and have a gap between them so oil from the block can transfer through that gap to the cylinder head.   After that, I took a look at the stub cam assembly.  I decided that I wanted to make the groove in the stub cam a little wider.  I like to do this on all the SOHCs I build, to compensate for any misalignments between the stub cam and the #2 cam bearing.  I ended up making the stub cam groove 0.230" wide; here's a picture of it on my lathe during the machining operation:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/bdmstubcam.jpg)

After machining the stub cam I test fit it in the block and it fit perfectly.  I reinstalled the remaining plugs, spent some time removing a broken off bolt in the front of the engine, and then got ready to start checking bearing clearances.  Here's a picture of the block ready to assemble:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/pondblock.jpg)

I pulled the new crank out of the box and set it up on the bench.  I miked the main journals and they were just about perfect, right on 2.738, give or take a tenth.  I used the micrometer to set up my dial bore gauge, then one by one started checking the inside diameter of the main bearing bore.  Starting from the back of the engine, I checked the #5 main bearing and found the clearance a little large, at .0042".  Next I went to #4, and after tightening the main cap and torquing to the spec, I measured a much better clearance of .0026".  However, I noticed that the clearance would change as I moved the dial bore gauge from the front of the bearing toward the back.  After looking at this fairly carefully, I saw a difference of nearly .001".  So the bore was tapered; at the very front the clearance measured .0022", and at the rear of the bearing the clearance measured .0032".  This was not good.

Next I moved to the #3 main, and here the problem was even worse.  Front side of the bearing showed a clearance of .0015", and the rear showed a clearance of .0033"!

Well, at this point I was wondering whether there was some problem with the bearings, or if it was with the block.  I decided to pull the #3 cap back off, remove the bearings, and mike the bearing bore in the block itself.  Now on this engine, the main caps are held in place by studs, except for one bolt that is used on one side of the #3 cap.  Jason installed this bolt because it has a stud on top of it, and can be used to bolt the long oil pump pickup tube in place (required for the rear sump on this engine.)  However, you are of course putting the full torque of the main cap bolts into the aluminum threads in the block.  This is not really a good idea, and is why aluminum blocks come with studs to secure the main caps and heads, not bolts.  So, naturally, as I was torquing down this bolt to tighten the cap, when I got to about 80 ft pounds I started to feel it slip.  I knew immediately that I'd stripped the threads in the block.  In order to continue with the check, I left the bolt as it was, and tightened the nut on the stud on the other side, plus the crossbolts.  Then I set the dial bore gauge up to measure the inside main bearing bore, and sure enough, I still had the same taper as I had measured with the bearing in place.

I went back to the bolt on #3, and just to be sure I tried to tighten it again.  No joy, it spun easily.  We pulled the cap off and also took the #3 stud out, and put them in the cap.  Here's a photo:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/boltnstud.jpg)

The bolt is also not going deep enough into the block, compared to the stud.  I'm going to find a way to make a stud work in this position so this problem does not recur.

So, the block needs to have the main cap thread helicoiled, and be align honed before we can continue assembly, and I will get it back into the shop this week.  Maybe we can get a quick turnaround and be back to assembly next weekend; we will see.  I'll post an update when I get back to assembly of the short block - Jay
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on January 24, 2016, 10:47:11 PM
Once you get the block thread repaired you could drill and tap a proper stud and
either use a stud or bolt for the for the oil pickup hold down.
One issue with the coil repair is it is only about 1/2" long or so.
This is where you could use a 5/8 fine thread bolt and drill and tap it for the 1/2" thread the whole length
of the block thread. It will have a .028" wall when done and when glued in you would pretty much have to drill it out
to remove it.  :P
I know you can get extended length coils, but they are still coils. ::)
And you still have to torque the stud a min of 3 more times.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: BH107 on January 26, 2016, 12:21:42 AM
Once you get the block thread repaired you could drill and tap a proper stud and
either use a stud or bolt for the for the oil pickup hold down.
One issue with the coil repair is it is only about 1/2" long or so.
This is where you could use a 5/8 fine thread bolt and drill and tap it for the 1/2" thread the whole length
of the block thread. It will have a .028" wall when done and when glued in you would pretty much have to drill it out
to remove it.  :P
I know you can get extended length coils, but they are still coils. ::)
And you still have to torque the stud a min of 3 more times.

Agree, you should be able to drill and tap the end of a stud to hold up pickup...

As far as the thread repair, obviously fine thread isn't going to work in an aluminum block. I'm sure the machine shop will probably use a TimeSert or similar, and they are available in longer lengths than most of the coil type repairs.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on January 26, 2016, 10:58:01 AM
I know what your saying "fine thread in alum", no way giddy up.
But the fine thread is used quite a bit in aerospace parts and even in alum rods.
I have no problem using it in aluminum.
I would make a fitted threadsert for the block. I would want to remove the minimum amount
of block material and make the thinnest threadsert I could.
Of course it will be Jays call as he is the one who has to post pictures.  ::)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on January 26, 2016, 11:55:06 AM
I'm leaving it up to my shop; they are the ones with the experience on this, so whatever they do is OK by me.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: philminotti on January 26, 2016, 08:29:08 PM
When I originally bought my Pond block in 2005 from an engine shop who shall remain nameless, the mains were all tapered as well.  Had to crate it up and send it back.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on January 27, 2016, 12:38:19 AM
I'm not even sure how the heck you would get tapered mains like that when a boring bar is used?
 Either way, with an aftermarket block everything needs to be checked and you have to expect some touch-up work here and there. Good catch on that though, it would surely have caused some bearing problems in a short period.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on January 27, 2016, 10:31:18 AM
From worn stones.
Short stroking and the leading portion wears and allows the taper to form.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on January 27, 2016, 01:00:55 PM
With alu block and steel mains
I dont think its Honed with Stones
Its bored with a Boring bar
But how it get tapered??
Maby worn Cutting tools so there is
a lot of heat prodused so the mains
Grow during the Boring operations
And then cools down to tapered
Just a thought

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on January 27, 2016, 01:33:43 PM
You could just go with a bore, but even a really nice bar will show tool marks and pretty much requires a hone to clean the surface.
The aluminum steel combo needs a bit more finesse but it normally still gets a hone for final size.
The cap that Jay shows in this thread has the tell tale signs of the hone cross hatch.
When the tool goes dull it does not matter how fancy the machine or the operator, it's going to start
cutting tapers. ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Barry_R on January 27, 2016, 06:02:13 PM
Almost always a hone.  If they have a taper its likely that the main cap was not cut perpendicular to the bore in the first place - every time you reassemble it ends up in a slightly different location/orientation.  The line hone uses a really long set of stones with a pretty long stroke...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on January 30, 2016, 09:33:14 PM
Got the block back from the machine shop on Friday; thankfully it was a quick turnaround.  In addition to the line hone they also faced the thrust surfaces of the cap and block, because they were a little banged up.  Got back on this project tonight and finally making some progress.  All the bearing clearances were around .003" on the mains, so they looked good, but after a test assembly the crank endplay was almost non-existent; I measured it at .001"!  I took the thrust surfaces of the #3 bearing and sanded them on a glass plate to increase the clearance, then FINALLY got the crank installed and torqued into the block:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/JTBcrnkinstall.jpg)

Hopefully the rods and pistons will go in without drama tomorrow...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on January 31, 2016, 12:06:42 AM
Hope it doesn't fight you the whole way.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on January 31, 2016, 11:28:04 PM
I was also noticing the #3 replacement stud.  Is that one just a little longer " out of the box", or did it require a little tinkering?  Should work well with the rear oil pickup. ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on February 01, 2016, 12:11:40 AM
That stud is actually for a 351W Ford block; I traded the new one I got from Robert Pond to my machinist for that one.  It is about 3/8" longer, so it should work just fine to secure the oil pickup tube.  Didn't get as much done today on your engine as I wanted, but the first three piston and rod assemblies are in, and rod bearing clearance looks good so far.  Should be able to get the rest of the pistons and rods in this week, then hopefully have the heads by next weekend, and get those assembled and installed...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ec164 on February 01, 2016, 11:20:09 AM
I'm excited for you Jason, Jay will get you turned around and that Bad A** Mustang will be screaming this summer!...............Al
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 01, 2016, 02:26:46 PM
Thanks Al.  Looking forward to it!!!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Leny Mason on February 01, 2016, 05:16:28 PM
Cobracammer I am glad that you are getting help with your SOHC, Jay has put information on hear that is helping me to, like the way the cam bearings go in. Thanks Jay. Leny Mason
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on February 01, 2016, 07:03:10 PM
Happy to help, Leny, the more running cammers out there, the better! :D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Joe-JDC on February 01, 2016, 11:34:13 PM
Sorry to hear the seats were below the chambers where the pitting was taking place.  That is unusual in itself.  Also, on the camshaft bearing, you could use a carpet knife to cut away the space for the gear.  The first time someone told me to use a carpet knife to chamfer a rod bearing to give more radius clearance, I thought they were bonkers.  But I tried it, and it works as smooth as butter if you hold the blade at a near 90* angle to the bearing.  That would give you more area to keep the oil on the camshaft journal.  Hope to hear that SOHC is healthy, soon.  Joe-JDC
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 02, 2016, 05:43:24 PM
OK, just heard good news from Jay.  The cam shells for the heads are on their way.  Hopefully by the end of the week (or early next week) they will have arrived.  Given that I have had time now after our move and more importantly since Jay is doing the hard part of rebuilding the engine, I have been thinking (brooding really) over the small items that plagued me during my build.  Just thought I would spitball a few just to see them written down.

First of all....  My favorite is the engine cooling.  After buying and trying different fans (with different clearance issues), the car still seemed to run a bit hot just sitting still.  As was mentioned a few time by members on here, as the car was moving, the temp dropped substantially.  However, I hated that I was up in the 200's while at idle.  So because the engine bay is so small and tight, I took advice and had the headers ceramic coated.  This should cut down on a little heat.  This will also help protect the headers from rust.  What I did find interesting was that the ceramic coater said to be careful since the coating can easily be scratched.  Is ceramic coating supposed to be so brittle?  I was thinking (since they are already coated for protection) I can then use a thermal heat wrap on top of it....  This would cut heat down even further and protect the tubes from scratches and chips.  My only issue is that the tubes go in (and come out) 1 at a time and in a specific order.  With thermal wrap on them, they will be bound together and will not be able to be removed as easy without unwrapping each one....  Then again, how often will I have to remove the headers without removing the engine?  I was thinking about the cammer and the engine compartment and think that the headers could stay on the engine if it needed to be lifted out ever....  this then means that I could install the headers on the engine while I have it out of the car, and wrap them all as 1 (instead of individually).  Not really sure on the wrap, and again, not a huge deal in the scheme of things.

Second is the fans!  I have a set of spal fans (13") which came with my aluminum shroud.  These were straig blade and didn't move as much as the "s" blades.  So I ordered 2 "s" blad Spal fans.  They moved a lot more air (1777 each), but then the motors were bigger and blocked the power steering belt and rubben on the alternator pulley (barely).  even with these stronger spal fans, we were in the 200's while at idle.  Given the fact that when Jay pulled this engine apart, there were a lot of areas not getting oil....  I wonder if once oil flow has been corrected if the engine block itself will run cooler and the smaller spal fans (straight blade) would work?  This would allow me to put the after market fan shroud with the smaller 13" fans back on and not have any clearance issues.  The other thought (which I don't know why it didn't come to me earlier) is just buying a 16" 2000 CFM pusher Spal fan.  I can leave the 2 13" spals on the shroud and have them automatically come on then the car is running.  I can then run the 16" pusher Spal fan on the front of the Radiator through the FAST EFI computer.  That way if the engine gets to a preset temp (even with the smaller fans) the computer will kick on the larger push fan.....  I like this idea because I would not have to move the radiator forward at all.  In front of the radiator on a 2005 Saleen there has to be between 1 and 1.5 feet of empty space.  Perfect for a "Big ol' fan".

3rd is the wiring.  I wanted to clean up the wiring in the engine bay before dropping the engine back in.  Every time I went out there (a few months ago) to try and attempt...  I just fiddled a little and gave up.  The thing is, because I took the 4.6 Modular out, there are a TON of wires that I do not need... and they are all wrapped in a python thick cable that snakes all around the engine bay.  Wires for each fuel injector, cam sensors, crank trigger sensor, Blah-Blah.  After doing some reading, Its basically the engine management computer (for the modular engine) that needed to be removed.  However, wrapped in that huge cable is other necessary wires I don't want to screw up.  Its got airbags, ABS brakes, Ground wires for EVERYTHING, the alternator wiring, etc.

I saw on another forum where a brave (and supremely talented person) unwrapped each cable to wires.  Then with the schematic in hand, extended what needed extending, and removed (down to pulling the pigtail and removing the pin) anything he did not need.  The after picture was an immaculate engine compartment where he even relocated the Bussed electrical center out of sight.  This would be great, but I am not that skilled.  So as of this moment, I will just try and protect the wires from the heat of the headers and leave everything there for now.

 I also wanted to mention another thing.  Putting this transmission in after the engine was in was a huge pain in the A$$.  I had to try and use the huge torque wrench with every extension on it to reach some of those top bolts.  Even though I torqued each bolt to the exact value stated in the instructions, when I removed the engine to send to Jay, I found 1 or 2 bolts that were loose.  This could have been a disaster I am sure on this engine.  I wanted to install the transmission on the engine and install as 1.  Again (much like the headers) it will allow me tons of room to get things right.  I wanted to install lock washers on each bolt (no bolts or hardware came with my transmission package, so I didn't think to use lock washers).  I also wanted to use Locktite on all of the bolts.  With the weight of this engine and transmission combined, I am not sure I can use the engine crane properly.  I am thinking I may have to somehow lower the front of the car (remove the wheels and put it down on small jack stands) and then Jack the back of the car up as High as I can get it on those 12ton tall jack stands?  This way I can slide it all in as 1 unit?  This again would make my life much easier and I would be sure that the headers are torqued and wrapped properly as well as the transmission bolts are all torqued and locked in to spec.

Again, just wanted to get these thoughts out and in writing, so please excuse any grammatical errors or ramblings above. 

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on February 02, 2016, 06:52:39 PM
On the cooling issue. I'm not a fan (some pun intended) of putting a fan on the front of the rad.
All it does is block the natural air flow you have from traveling at speed.
Part of your hot issue was the poor oil cooling effect so with Jay's redo you will naturally see
a cooler running engine.
I would stay with the biggest fan/fans you can behind the rad and give it a test run when it is back in.
I would hold off on the header wrap for now. You will see a cooler running engine when you get it back.

As for the wire clean up. Stay motivated. It's a top level bad ass ride.

I like to put the engine and trans together and then put it in. Not sure on your lifting device but
There are ways to do it.
To dab of Loctite on some bolts never hurts. 


 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 02, 2016, 08:25:46 PM
Thanks.  The header wrap was just mainly to protectthe ceramic coating ( because the shop said it scratches easy)  I am not really wanting to install it.  As for the cooling, thats my thoughts exactly.  My thinking was all of that metal on metal was making heaps of heat.  Original 2 straight blade spal fans should work perfectly! 

I have a cherry picker for the engine.  Hard to get the reach needed with the weight of the engine and trans together, but I really want to install it together, so Ill find a way even if I have to rent  gantry crane. 

The electrical will get done, but later...... Sort of a last bug in the project.... And most likely by a professional  hahaha
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: fekbmax on February 02, 2016, 09:21:01 PM
Idk if its true but i have been told by a local plating shop that "true" ceramic coatings fo high temp applacations get more durable after several heat cycle's.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 02, 2016, 09:25:53 PM
That would be great if true.  Ill try and find some info on it.  Thanks!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: fekbmax on February 02, 2016, 09:35:26 PM
I was really wanting to ceramic coat a intake manifold but I'd hate to think t wouldn't hold up well. Regular powder coating hods up really well if done properly so maybe I should go that route instead..
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 02, 2016, 09:58:34 PM
It would seem, from reading, that ceramic coatings are not "fully cured" until after a few heat cycles of 1 hour each at idle or driving slowly.  They definately do not suggest heat wrap on top of ceramic coatings  lol.  Good to know
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on February 03, 2016, 10:42:15 AM
Thanks.  The header wrap was just mainly to protectthe ceramic coating ( because the shop said it scratches easy)  I am not really wanting to install it.  As for the cooling, thats my thoughts exactly.  My thinking was all of that metal on metal was making heaps of heat.  Original 2 straight blade spal fans should work perfectly! 

I have a cherry picker for the engine.  Hard to get the reach needed with the weight of the engine and trans together, but I really want to install it together, so Ill find a way even if I have to rent  gantry crane. 

The electrical will get done, but later...... Sort of a last bug in the project.... And most likely by a professional  hahaha
Long before ceramic coatings were available, the hot set-up was to super clean steel tube headers with acetone or lacquer thinner and them paint with high heat white VHT spray paint. Since they were white and subject to greasy paws and also easily scratched, we'd wrap them in heavy clear plastic drop cloths  (any Lowes or Home Depot's paint department ) with some duct tape to protect them during installation. Remove before firing and voila!   
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on February 03, 2016, 04:24:47 PM
Definitely no on the header wrap. All that stuff does is cause headers to rust out faster. If they were stainless, you could get away with it, but they're not. Ceramic (which is brittle by nature, once fully cured) coated headers can still get rust oxidation on the surface from particles in the air. The wrap will only serve to trap that along with moisture, and they will rust badly over time. Some light, non-abrasive cleaner will usually clean any surface oxidation right off. And sure, anything will scratch, but if you're careful it won't be an issue. Just don't whack on them with a hammer if you can avoid it.

On that wiring...that would be an exercise in extreme patience. Once you unwrap one of those harnesses, they look like a plate of spaghetti dropped on the floor. Once I drop a plate of spaghetti on the floor, I throw it away ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 03, 2016, 04:31:26 PM
Hahahahah  I love the spaghetti analogy!!!  Priceless pearl of wisdom!  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: R-WEST on February 05, 2016, 08:34:25 PM
I keep checking this thread, and have reached two conclusions:

Jason - you are the epitome of perseverance!!  8)

Jay - you rock!!  8)

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on February 05, 2016, 08:49:38 PM
What he^^^^ said.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on February 07, 2016, 11:14:12 PM
Just a quick update on this project.  This weekend I was able to get the short block assembled; pic below:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/pondsb.jpg)

Also, we got the cam bearings, and I picked up the heads at the machine shop.  Here's a picture of one of the heads:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/sohchd.jpg)

The heads now have Brodix ductile iron seats, rather than the original powdered metal seats that chipped apart.  New guides have also been installed, and honed to the valve stem diameter.  We have new valves to install and a new valve job, new springs and retainers, and the machine shop honed the T&D rockers for the correct clearance fit on the new rocker shafts.  Before assembling the heads we need new spring seats, valve seals, and valve locks; those should be coming this week.  So at this point I expect to have the heads assembled and the heads and backing plate on the engine next weekend.

One delay has come from Comp Cams, where they are currently out of the cores they use to grind the SOHC camshafts.  The cores were supposed to come in mid January, but the latest from Comp is that they have now been delayed until the end of February.  So it looks like it will be another month before the engine is completely together and ready for the dyno.  With the extra time I'm going to make some modifications to Jason's rear sump oil pan, to increase the capacity by a couple quarts and also to tie the front and rear sections of the pan together with a #12 AN line, to make sure we don't leave a whole bunch of oil just sitting there in the front sump.

I'll post another update next weekend - Jay
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on February 14, 2016, 10:23:31 PM
This weekend I was able to get the heads on Jason's engine assembled, and then installed on the block.  On the heads, I left checker springs on the #1 cylinder so I can check piston to valve clearance on that one once the engine is more completely assembled.  After that I can replace the checker springs while the engine is still assembled.  The work today went pretty much completely by the book, no real issues to deal with.  The valve spring compressor knicked my finger once  ::); I'm always getting smacked by that thing when the tension on the spring is released.  I re-used Jason's Cometic head gaskets, gave them a coat of NAPA Copper Spray-A-Gasket, and installed them with no issues. 

Next weekend I think I will get the backing plate installed, and maybe try to make some modifications to the oil pan to increase capacity of that rear sump.  We are still waiting for the cams from Comp, so once the backing plate is installed I don't really have much more I can do until the cams arrive.  Assuming the cams arrive end of February or beginning of March, I should be able to get the rest of the assembly done within a week, and get on the dyno with this engine.  Looking forward to that!   :D

Here's some pictures from the assembly today:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/jtbc001.jpg)

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/jtbc002.jpg)

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/jtbc003.jpg)

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on February 21, 2016, 10:10:56 PM
More progress on this project this weekend, but at this point I'm stalled until the new cams arrive.  Jason had emailed me earlier in the week, expressing some concern about the threads in the front of each head that hold the fuel pump gear and stand on one side, and the chain tensioner on the other side.  On Saturday morning I checked them and sure enough, they were looking pretty marginal.  I tested-tightened them and the threads pulled right out, so I heli-coiled both sides to address that issue.  Then I got the backing plate cleaned up and flattened out, and installed it on the engine.  Picture is below.  The engine is going to stay looking like this until the new cams arrive.

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/jtbbackingplate.jpg)

On Sunday I decided to tackle the oil pan project.  Because of the necessity of using a rear pan in Jason's installation, he is using a Canton pickup truck pan.  I have some experience with this pan, having used it on my first SOHC for my Galaxie back in 2008.  Unfortunately, it is not a good performance oil pan.  The oil volume that it contains is simply not enough to support one of these engines, and in fact when I dynoed with this pan in 2008, the oil pressure would nearly always fall off at the end of the pull, indicating that the engine was running out of oil.  I ended up removing the pan from the engine and adding some sheet metal to increase capacity, and then everything was fine.  I felt we should do the same thing for Jason's engine.  A picture of the pan before modifications is below:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/cantonrspan1.jpg)

This is advertised as a six quart pan.  I did some calculations based on the measurements, and found that the front sump, where the oil pump goes, could hold 1.5 quarts, less the volume of the pump itself.  The rear sump, if filled all the way up to the flat bottom in the middle of the pan, would hold 5-1/2 quarts.  I wanted to increase the capacity of that rear sump, so that we could put 8-9 quarts in this engine and be sure we weren't running out of oil in the car. 

Jason had sent me a picture of the engine compartment in his car, so that I could see where the rear sump of the pan was located.  I took that picture and drew the outline of the existing sump in red, and then drew some kickouts I wanted to put on the sides of the plan in blue:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/JTBsump.jpg)

After making some measurements on the pan and calculating some volumes I decided to add kickouts that extended 3" on either side of the pan, and were 4" high.  This would add just about 2 quarts of capacity to the rear sump.  First step was to cut some windows in the side of the pan:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/panmod1.jpg)

Next I took some sheet steel, and cut and bent it to shape in my brake, and tacked the pieces onto the pan:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/panmod2.jpg)

Notice how one side of the pan had that angle cut out of the corner as delivered.  I didn't want to take a chance on getting too close to the crossmembers under the car, so I just continued that angle.  It leaves the pan looking a little asymmetrical, but that won't matter.

Next I cut the rest of the metal for filling in the top and bottom of the kickouts, and welded it all in place.  I've probably built 20 oil pans and gas tanks over the years, and after the initial welding I always fill them with water to check for leaks.  This is the first one I've done that didn't leak at all on the first test!  I couldn't believe it LOL!  Picture of the pan holding the water below:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/panmod3.jpg)

After clean up and paint it looks pretty good, and I don't think we will have an oil capacity issue now with the modifications:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/panmod4.jpg)

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/panmod5.jpg)

I'll post some further updates once the cams arrive and we start getting the engine the rest of the way together - Jay
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Joe-JDC on February 21, 2016, 10:59:54 PM
Hope the headers clear!  LOL  Neat.  Joe-JDC
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: newfalconowner on February 22, 2016, 09:11:29 AM
is that pan good for a street driven 390? I have sorta the same pan (I made myself off measurements from one), or should I add more like you did
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on February 22, 2016, 10:24:03 AM
Nice Jay. Hey, no more excuses on your welding as your work looks pretty good, no kidding.   
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: babybolt on February 22, 2016, 11:59:37 AM
Jay, what kind of spring compressor are you using?  I dislike all of them except for the fancy high priced compressed air aluminum bodied version.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on February 22, 2016, 12:37:30 PM
is that pan good for a street driven 390? I have sorta the same pan (I made myself off measurements from one), or should I add more like you did
Rick, I think it depends on the engine.  If its mostly stock, the pan probably would be OK, especially if you are restricting oil to the top end.  If its more racy, I would either run a whole bunch of oil with that pan, or modify the pan to increase the rear sump capacity like I did.  I have never seen any pan get sucked dry on the dyno except for that one.  Of course, that was with an 800 HP SOHC, but still...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on February 22, 2016, 12:40:56 PM
Jay, what kind of spring compressor are you using?  I dislike all of them except for the fancy high priced compressed air aluminum bodied version.
I have a mechanical one with an over-center lever that has been modified to work on SOHC heads.  I really don't like it that much, it is difficult to release smoothly with a strong spring, and it will snap out of the over-center position and nick my fingers every now and then.  But its the only one I have, and I'm not sure if I can modify a different one to work on SOHC heads, so that's what I use...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on February 22, 2016, 12:42:43 PM
Nice Jay. Hey, no more excuses on your welding as your work looks pretty good, no kidding.   
Thanks Bob, but I think you have low welding standards  ;)  There are a lot of guys who make their welds look a lot better than mine.  I was just happy that the pan didn't leak LOL!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on February 22, 2016, 12:50:42 PM
Hope the headers clear!  LOL  Neat.  Joe-JDC
Joe, that's an excellent point; I'm glad you brought it up.  Jason has emailed me some pictures of the header installation from under the car, so I'm going to review those tonight with the oil pan temporarily installed and see how it looks.  There is clearly a lot of room on either side of the pan, but it might be close in some spots...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: newfalconowner on February 22, 2016, 01:21:59 PM
I would either run a whole bunch of oil with that pan, or modify the pan to increase the rear sump capacity like I did.  I have never seen any pan get sucked dry on the dyno except for that one.  Of course, that was with an 800 HP SOHC, but still...

thanx,, im lucky if I have 200hp,, and wont race it (much).. I will see how this spring goes when its on the road and keep an eye on my gauges. thanx
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on February 22, 2016, 06:09:55 PM
Looks really good Jay!  I'm noting all of the tips and tricks on this build, many learned the hard way.  The other post up the page with the chain break fiasco is another expensive one!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: rowdy58ford on February 24, 2016, 11:08:43 AM
Jay, Rowdy 58 Ford Greg R here I would get a Gard specialists inc 9/16-12 C-900-200 1" long I ask how many foot lbs of torque can they take tech guy said twice what a grade 8 bolt can be torque two go to there site and see demo on how to install better then a ensert drill once then install no taps cuts it own threads best repair I can find? jay what spring set pressure do you use I have 250 on the seat I don't think I need that much now is the time to change had 3 bent exhaust valves they ground straight but I will replace no other damage but broke 5 rockers all exhaust
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on February 24, 2016, 02:23:50 PM
Thanks for the tip on the thread repair Greg, I will check those out.  On my big SOHC I have about 270 on the seat and 660 over the nose, runs to 7500 with no problem with my heavy Manley valves (~150 grams).  If you are using relatively heavy valves I'd stick with the springs you've got.  I tried to go down to some PAC springs last summer, about 235/620, and I think I had some issues with them on the dyno, so I replaced them with the original springs and I'm sticking with those - Jay
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: babybolt on February 24, 2016, 09:51:28 PM
Probably the longest single thread about an internal combustion engine ever, let alone a 427 SOHC!  1336 posts!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 12, 2016, 01:22:18 PM
Its that time!!  Comp Cams are done and have been delivered to Doc Brown!!  I can feel a dyno session right up around the bend!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Drew Pojedinec on April 12, 2016, 02:33:35 PM
so........ Finally, the time has come? 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 12, 2016, 02:45:10 PM
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/0AF004F0-3626-46C2-B1B6-5CB55BE8E1D9_zpslbjuswbj.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/0AF004F0-3626-46C2-B1B6-5CB55BE8E1D9_zpslbjuswbj.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on April 12, 2016, 02:56:29 PM
Ooooh! Not that is a damn pretty sight indeed!  ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on April 17, 2016, 09:32:39 PM
After finally getting the cams this week I was looking forward to getting the rest of this engine assembled over the weekend.  Got going bright and early Saturday morning, and of course ran into an immediate problem.  After installing the cams in the heads, then the gears on the cams, I started looping the big timing chain around the other gears to finish the timing setup.  But after getting the chain positioned correctly, when I tried to put some tension on the chain it didn't seem to be in the right position.  One of the things you always want to do with these engines is make sure that all the gears are lined up in the same plane.  If the gears are out of line with each other, you end up with side stresses on the chain, which will cause a premature chain failure.  When I laid the straight edge on the two cam gears and looked at the fuel pump gear, I saw the worst misalignment I'd ever seen on one of these engines:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/jtbgear1.jpg)


The fuel pump gear is a good 0.200" back from the two cam gears.  With that much out of plane deflection it is remarkable to me that the chain even ran for as long as it did.  A similar check on the adjuster gear showed that it was out of plane in the opposite direction, forward of the two cam gears, by about 0.100". 

Fortunately, this is an easy fix.  The gears are pressed onto their bearings, and all that has to be done is to move them by pressing them forward or back into the correct position.  Easier said than done, of course, but after several trips back and forth to the press and multiple test fits, I finally got both the fuel pump gear and the adjuster gear positioned correctly.  Here's a picture shown the alignment of the fuel pump gear and the cam gear after the correction:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/jtbgear2.jpg)


After resolving this issue the rest of the timing setup went together without any trouble.  We had already decided to replace the chain, so I assembled the new chain on the gears.  After waiting 3 months for the cams it was good to finally see the complete timing setup:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/jtbtiming.jpg)


I spent the rest of the day Saturday installing the front cover and the oil pan.  The front cover can be challenging in some cases, especially if it is a new cover and has never been fit to the engine before, but since this engine was already together at one point, most of the fitment issues were worked out, and I was happy to see that after installation of all the gaskets, the cover slid neatly into position with no issues.  I did have an issue with one of the four bolts that holds the front cover to the backing plate up at the top, but it was just a stripped thread, and since on this particular front cover the holes did not go all the way through the cover at the top, I simply drilled the stripped hole deeper until it did come through, then tapped the drilled portion and put the bolt in.  One other odd thing about this cover has to do with the inspection covers that bolt in place on each side.  This is the second cover I've seen where the five smaller bolts that hold each inspection cover in place were tapped for fine threads.  The stock covers, and most of the aftermarket ones, are tapped with normal coarse threads. 

After the front cover was on I flipped the engine over to install the oil pan.  I've always liked the view of this engine from underneath:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/jtbbottom.jpg)


The oil pan went on without any major issues, at least as much as it can with two gaskets, the windage tray, the long pickup tube and the extended sump LOL.  I called it a night on Saturday, fairly pleased with how the engine was going together.

Sunday morning I got the engine flipped back upright and started the tedious job of setting the cam timing.  I had checker springs installed on cylinder #1, so I used that cylinder to time the right cam, and also check piston to valve clearance once the timing had been set.  I remember earlier in this project Jason had struggled a little with finding top dead center, so I wanted to check that to be sure I knew that it was correct.  Jason had installed a timing tape over the degree marks on his harmonic balancer, but I was using a regular degree wheel bolted to the balancer.  After installing a piston stop in #1 and finding TDC, it looked like Jason's marks were within a 1/2 degree of where I had found TDC.  But then I noticed that the timing pointer on the harmonic balancer, which I had never removed, had been installed upside down.  When I unbolted it and flipped it over, it lined up pretty well with the original marks on the harmonic balancer, so I pulled the timing tape off and will refer to the marks on the balancer when timing the engine.

In the meantime I tensioned the chain, and after installing the cams straight up according to the marks, I checked the intake centerline of the right cam and found it to be 3 degrees retarded.  I wanted it at about 103, so I loosened the bolts on the right cam gear, pulled the pin, and then repositioned it to get close.  Checked it again and it was exactly 103, so I added Loctite to the bolts on the cam gear and tightened them.  Here's a picture of the setup in the midst of the cam timing operation:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/jtbcamtime.jpg)


I went through the same procedure on the left cam, and set it at 105 degrees, then disassembled the right side and used my home built on-engine valve spring compressor to pull the checker springs and install the real valve springs on cylinder #1.  After that I spent the next hour or so installing the rocker shafts and rocker arms permanently, and then cold lashing the valves.  Then, in preparation for the pre-oil I installed the oil filter adapter, the oil filter, and a gauge on top of the oil filter adapter.

Pre-oiling the engine with the valve covers off is really important IMO, especially with these engines.  This is where you can confirm that ALL the rockers have oil, prior to the first engine start.  It is also a big mess on these engines, because the oil will overflow the heads and puddle under each exhaust rocker on the floor.  In preparation for that I had newspaper and paper towels down, to catch any oil that came pouring off the heads.  Here's a shot of the engine with my drill on a pre-oiling rod, ready to pre-oil the engine:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/jtbpreoil1.jpg)


I added 8 quarts of oil to the engine, then spun the drill on low speed.  I was gratified to see that within 3 or 4 revolutions the drill was being dragged down by the pump.  The gauge read 65 psi, and the drill was probably only turning 100 RPM, so the oil pressure was looking good.  And sure enough, after 20 seconds or so I started hearing popping indicating air was coming out of the valvetrain, and then oil started pouring out.  This is what you want to see when you pre-oil one of these engines:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/jtbpreoil2.jpg)

I checked to make sure that I had oil at all 16 rocker arms, and then stopped the drill.  Probably only lost a pint of oil on the floor  ;D


With all the valvetrain stuff now out of the way, the remaining work of buttoning up the engine seemed like it ought to be pretty easy.  And it was - right up to the intake manifold.  I test fit the intake, and the first thing I found was that it was sitting up way too high when the cork pieces were used on the end rails.  I like to use the cork pieces on the SOHCs because they fill a large triangular gap at each corner of the intake, but the flat part of the cork was holding the intake off the intake gaskets, and the bolt holes didn't line up.  So, I pulled the corks, set the intake in place on the gaskets, and everything seemed to fit fine.  So, I glued the gaskets in place with RTV, put a bead of RTV on each end rail, and set the manifold in place.  Then, and only then, did I discover that while the bolt holes in the manifold lined up with the heads at the back of the engine, they were misaligned at the front.  I made a futile attempt to bolt the intake in place anyway, but the bolts were just not going in.  Jason had stripped a bunch of these bolt holes in the head when he put the engine together, and now it was clear to me why.  Seemed like the only option was to enlarge or slot the holes in the intake, so that it could be bolted in place properly.  Reluctantly I pulled the intake off the engine and spent half an hour cleaning up all the TA-31 that was smeared everywhere.  As a result, here is the state of the engine tonight:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/jtbassy.jpg)


This week I will have to figure out the best solution for the intake dilemma, but once I have the intake bolted onto the engine, it is ready for the dyno.  Pretty sure at this point that I will get this engine dynoed next weekend.  Stay tuned...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on April 17, 2016, 11:54:54 PM
Cool deal Jay!  Thanks for the tip on checking sprocket alignment.  It seems such an obvious thing, but so easy to miss...

Looking forward to hearing a rumble from an Easterly direction next weekend.

- Bill
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on April 18, 2016, 06:32:03 PM
Looking at that shot of the right hand valvetrain, it becomes apparent the relation of the lobe in respect to the intake rockers. Since the cam is spinning clockwise, it seems that the cam lobe pushes almost directly against the horizontal plane of the intake rocker, unlike the exhaust where the lobe is coming from underneath. I'm amazed that the rockers roller can survive with that lobe/roller relationship. That has to become even more pronounced with higher lifts. Is that the cause of your previous rocker issues with the SOHC? Obviously premium quality materials MUST be used in those rollers to survive. I'd imagine the exhaust side has the same issue on the drivers side.

It also looks like the drivers side does not have a cam bearing in the first rocker shaft cap, whereas the passenger side does. Is that normal, or was it not installed yet while you were doing some checking?

It sure is sweet to get some quality second hand pictures of one of these engines going together, and to see all the indiosyncrasies of the SOHC. Thanks for these great write-ups.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on April 18, 2016, 07:45:25 PM
Cool deal Jay!  Thanks for the tip on checking sprocket alignment.  It seems such an obvious thing, but so easy to miss...

Looking forward to hearing a rumble from an Easterly direction next weekend.

- Bill

2X on the sprocket alignment that few would have caught right away when setting up a SOHC for the first time. Jay needs to 'do' a new cammer only assembly book as it would be pure gold for Ford fans!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on April 18, 2016, 09:57:00 PM
Looking at that shot of the right hand valvetrain, it becomes apparent the relation of the lobe in respect to the intake rockers. Since the cam is spinning clockwise, it seems that the cam lobe pushes almost directly against the horizontal plane of the intake rocker, unlike the exhaust where the lobe is coming from underneath. I'm amazed that the rockers roller can survive with that lobe/roller relationship. That has to become even more pronounced with higher lifts. Is that the cause of your previous rocker issues with the SOHC? Obviously premium quality materials MUST be used in those rollers to survive. I'd imagine the exhaust side has the same issue on the drivers side.

It also looks like the drivers side does not have a cam bearing in the first rocker shaft cap, whereas the passenger side does. Is that normal, or was it not installed yet while you were doing some checking?

It sure is sweet to get some quality second hand pictures of one of these engines going together, and to see all the indiosyncrasies of the SOHC. Thanks for these great write-ups.

There's kind of a story behind the rocker and cam lobe geometry.  You are correct that on the right side the lobe pushes against the intake rocker and pulls on the exhaust rocker, as the valves are opened.  Exact opposite on the left side of the engine.  This results in varying geometries from left to right.  Ford knew this, and the factory cams had different lobes for the left and right cams, to equalize the valve action.  But none of the aftermarket cam companies back in the day ever did that.

Fast forward to a few years ago, when Barry R and I got Comp Cams interested in doing these cams.  I had an SOHC sitting on the stand, and had several of the early version Comp Cams sitting here, so I did a degree by degree measurement of an intake lobe and an exhaust lobe, one on each side of the engine, and forwarded the data to Billy Godbold at Comp.  The result was a change to the lobe profiles for their newest series of SOHC cams.  Now, when you order an SOHC cam from Comp, the lobe numbers for the left cams start with LE and LI, and the lobe numbers for the right cams start with RE and RI, because the lobes are different from side to side to compensate for the valve geometry variation.

The rocker issues I've had haven't had much to do with this, though.  Mostly they have been due to sloppy tolerances and inadequate parts in the rockers.  T&D was the first company that put an SOHC rocker together with the same needle bearing tolerances that you would see with a roller lifter, and that made the rockers live for a longer term on the street.

You are correct also about the missing cam bearing in the #2 position on the left side of the engine.  For some reason, Ford left that one out.  Go figure...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on April 24, 2016, 10:20:07 PM
Finally today I finished up with this engine.  It has been a long wait, especially for the cams, but now that it is finally together it was great to have it run well on the dyno.  Here's a video of one of the dyno pulls:

https://youtu.be/Hw5_dfg8FjA

First thing I had to do this week was to get the intake manifold holes slotted so that the intake would physically fit on the engine.  This entailed setting it up on one of my CNC machines as shown in the photo below:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/intakecut1.jpg)


This is not the ideal setup because the intake can vibrate while the tool is cutting, but I went slowly and finally got both sides slotted.  Here's a picture of one of the holes, while I was test fitting the intake after machining:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/intakecut2.jpg)


The test fit looked good, so on Saturday morning I started finishing up the engine.  Everything went pretty well except for the plug wires.  Jason used regular MSD wires, and you really need to use some wires with a rigid boot instead, in order to reach down into the spark plug tube with the wire and make a secure connection to the plug.  Taylor Hemi wires are the ones I like to use; here's a picture showing the regular MSD wires and one of my Taylor wires:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/SOHCwires.jpg)


In order to make connections to the plug I had to reach down into the tube with a needle nose pliers and push the boot onto the plug.  Not that big of a deal, but it took a while to make sure I had them all right.  I also pulled back the caps that go over the spark plug tubes to allow access for the pliers.  But after the wires were installed the engine was basically complete; here it is sitting on the stand, waiting to go on the dyno:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/jtbsohc1.jpg)


I spent the rest of the afternoon Saturday getting the engine installed on the dyno and all hooked up.  By the end of the night, it was ready:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/jtbsohc2.jpg)


The dyno session was mostly uneventful.  The engine fired right up with no drama, had good oil pressure (over 50 psi hot at 1500 RPM, and over 70 psi during the dyno pulls), and sounded really good.  No funny noises, no clattering, etc.  After warming the engine up for several minutes I shut it down, and then lashed all the valves and tensioned the timing chain.  We were ready for some dyno pulls.

During the warm up for the dyno pulls, I revved the engine a few times, and noticed that the oil pressure was dropping.  I had been afraid of something like this; the rear sump Canton pan on this engine is known for draining the sump and losing oil pressure during the pull.  I used this pan in 2008 and noticed the problem, and Robert Pond told me the same thing happened to him with this pan.  I had added capacity to the pan to hopefully avoid this problem, but apparently it was not completely solved.  I was running 8 quarts of oil in the pan, so before the first dyno pull I added another quart.  We ran the first pull from 3000 to 4500 RPM, and didn't see any issues with the oil pressure.  However, the engine was way down on power, and it took us a while to find the issue.  Finally with the help of my friend Steve I figured out that I had the ignition timing wrong; after that was corrected, the engine ran much better and started making power like it should.  However, once we started running pulls to 5500 RPM plus, the oil pressure started dropping at the end of the pull.  Once again I added another quart of oil, and the problem went away.  I'm certain that a normal front sump pan with some baffles would solve this problem, but a pan like that won't fit in Jason's car.  I emailed him earlier and suggested just running 8 quarts in the pan plus a 3 quart Accusump, which I think would solve this problem. 

The dyno results were a little less than what I was hoping for, but because of the oil pan issues I did not want to run the engine past 6500 RPM, and horsepower was still climbing at that point, so I'm thinking the dyno results were a little light on what this engine would actually do if we could really wring it out.  I was hoping for 650 HP, but peak HP was 625, and peak torque was around 555 foot pounds.  Also, the cams on this engine have quite a bit less duration than the stock cams, and about the same lift, so we gave away a little horsepower there.  What we gained was low speed performance and vacuum.  This engine idles easily at 900-1000 RPM, and makes 9 to 11 inches of vacuum at idle.  Anybody who has been following the self learning EFI thread knows that low vacuum at idle will not let those systems work properly, and Jason has one of those systems for this engine, so I'm thinking that the EFI system ought to work pretty well with the engine as it is.  Here's a couple of torque and power graphs, for different RPM ranges:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/Jason1.JPG)

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/Jason2.JPG)

With that flat torque curve down low this engine ought to smoke the tires with impunity LOL!  I'm looking forward to getting it back to Jason so he can put it in the car and start enjoying it.


Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: 57 lima bean on April 25, 2016, 11:27:17 AM
The alleged locked distributor turned out to be a hoax.I vote the engine stays North and installed in my car so I can return to FE power and be somebody again.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on April 25, 2016, 11:33:57 AM
Is that a Checker?   ;D ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: 57 lima bean on April 25, 2016, 11:39:34 AM
Checkers had 4 headlights. >:(   LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ec164 on April 25, 2016, 08:29:00 PM
Nice job Jay and Congratulations Jason, I hope you have a great time this summer cruising your Bad Ass Car...........Al
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 25, 2016, 08:51:16 PM
Thanks..... And a HUGE shout out to Jay on the build and Barry for help with logistics!

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: 427Fastback on April 26, 2016, 10:52:35 AM
Good job.....engine sounds great.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on April 29, 2016, 03:15:11 PM
That's an excellent torque curve.  It should have sweet street driveability  :)

Glad the engine is solid and ready to scare the unsuspecting in that Saleen!  Please post a scan of your first traffic ticket, Jason.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 02, 2016, 07:17:30 PM
Lol.  Will do!  Can hardly wait!

Thanks all.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 12, 2016, 10:40:04 AM
And we're back!
I got the call a few days ago from the shipper that the engine had arrived.  Unfortunately, they were only able to deliver between work hours, and I just started a new job.  With excitement running high, I rushed over to a U-haul dealer and rented a truck.  About 30 minutes later, I am getting the engine loaded into the truck with a smile that couldn't have been wiped off my face even in a prison riot!  About 2 minutes from pulling in the driveway, and I realize that I haven't moved any of my tools (engine crane) to the new home yet.....

Long story short, I was able to slowly lift the box from side to side and work it up onto the ramp of the truck.  then just slowly slid it down into the garage.

The next day, My wife and I took another U-Haul and trailer down to my brothers house where all of my tools and the Saleen were being stored.  As I am sure he was glad to get his garage space back, I was even more pleased to be driving back home with my "goodies".  Now with the engine, trans, and car... and all of my tools returned home, I wanted to start immediately.  In speaking with Jay over the last few months (during the build), he had suggested different spark plug wires (Taylor- Hemi plugs) which would make it much easier to install.  Currently, the MSD boots and wires I rigged up are flimsy and are not easily seated on each plug.  They tended to bend when pushed.  I ordered a set of the Taylor hemi plug wires and will be transferring the SOHC dush boots from my old plugs to these new wires!

Also, we discussed the power steering pump.  Way-way back in this forum post, I had purchased an old 60's era power steering pump that mounts to a bracket on the water pump.  I thought this would make it easier, and even had a special power steering pressure line made at a local hose place.  The only issue at that time was figuring out if the pressure from the 60's pump would be the same as the Saleen's OEM pump (so I didn't blow the rack seals).  IN the end, the engine bay is so tight with the engine in there, that I wasn't able to install the belt on the PS pump due to its interference with the radiator.  Jay had suggested getting the OEM pump to work with a custom bracket.  So I purchased a brand new Saleen PS pump.  Since the Cammer has a V belt set up, I also ordered a brand new OEM PS pulley, but I will just be using this for measurements to find a V belt pulley to take its place.  Hopefully I can find one at March Performance, other wise I will need a machine shop to make me one.  I will still be using the 60's PS bracket, but with a little modification to hold and swing the OEM pump.

Also, during my "Maiden Voyage" back in October of last year, I was running the raw headers with no coating (Since that time I have had them Ceramic coated).  However, they seemed to have discolored the Clutch hydraulic supply line to the transmission.  Rather than take the chance and maybe have a blow out after the trans is already installed, I just ordered new lines to install while the access is easy.

Lastly, there are a lot of "accessories" running to the battery now.  With the FAST EFI system, the Dual radiator fans, the 6AL Ignition box, and a few others, I wanted to clean this up a little before dropping the engine back in.  I purchased a hot wire Bus bar from Jegs.  This will have a jump wire directly to the battery, and I will be able to install all of these accessory hot feed wires out of sight and more importantly...  more securely.

I hope to start on reassembly this weekend and I will try and take a few photos along the way! 

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on May 12, 2016, 11:07:11 AM
Yes to photos!  :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on May 12, 2016, 01:12:24 PM
Might be worthwhile to fabricate some sort of shield for the clutch line if it's that close.

Just curious, what did you do with the old Saleen engine?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 13, 2016, 03:45:55 PM
Hey Doug,

Yea, I was thinking the same.  At first I thought it was the same issue from before (an arc from the Starter running through the block).  After further examination, it looks like that was fixed, but this time the line was just a little to close to the header.  I actually purchased a shorter line (old one had a little slack) and I plan to pin it up and shield it.  The Saleen actually has OEM heat shields right at about that area on both the drivers and Passenger sides ( I think they were/are to shield the foot box area for the Driver and Passenger.  I may be able to just route it under that and then right up to the master cylinder.

As for the old Saleen Engine and trans, I actually gave it away to my father.  I think he put it on craigslist a few months ago and it sold.  I was in the middle of moving, and just didn't need the stress of finding a temp. home for that kind of stuff.  Honestly.......... I don't miss it   ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 15, 2016, 02:56:23 PM
Ok, just a small update.  Old sparkplug wires have been retired and the new 8mm Hemi Taylor wires have been made.  They fit, tgey are easy to push onto the sparkplug down each tube, and the whole process went smoothly with no Re-Do's or mistakes!  Thats a first for me...

Next step will be mounting the Flywheel, Clutch and bell-housing.

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/955ED0B5-944C-4AD5-93A1-773F87EF907C_zpsrs50ogzv.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/955ED0B5-944C-4AD5-93A1-773F87EF907C_zpsrs50ogzv.jpg.html)
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/C28232D9-A48F-45B7-AD57-87FD0D394B9B_zpsbbbvmatk.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/C28232D9-A48F-45B7-AD57-87FD0D394B9B_zpsbbbvmatk.jpg.html)

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 17, 2016, 08:14:14 AM
OK so tonight I will be going in to button up the Flywheel, Bellhousing, and Starter.  It took me some time to track down the instruction manuals for each online so I could get the correct torque specs, but all have been attained.

In other news, I ordered a pulley to use on the OEM power steering pump.  The original power steering pump used a serpentine 6 rib pulley, and it was small (somewhere around 5.3" in diameter).  Unfortunately, I was only able to find a Vbelt that measures 6" in diameter with close enough offset and center bore diameter.  The center bore diameter on the OEM pulley was 0.63 and my new replacement is 0.66.  Seems pretty close for press on, but I may keep a bolt and lock washer on the front as well (just to be sure).  I guess my main concern is that with a slightly larger diameter pulley, will I run the chance of blowing seals on my rack?  Its only 0.7" difference.  Any thoughts?  In the end, at least I am using an OEM PS pump on the OEM rack.....
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 17, 2016, 09:50:49 AM
More important would be the drive to driven ratio.  A larger driven pulley should flow less than a smaller one.  I see no reason it would hurt anything if the drive side is the same. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on May 17, 2016, 10:03:01 AM

The center bore diameter on the OEM pulley was 0.63 and my new replacement is 0.66.  Seems pretty close for press on, but I may keep a bolt and lock washer on the front as well (just to be sure). 


If those numbers are correct, the new pulley hole is 0.030" too big.  You need to be within 0.001" (one thousandth) of the original one in order to achieve any kind of press fit.  That one will be so loose that it will just spin and flop on the shaft, even with your bolt/ washer.

The correct way to do this, unfortunately, is to have a new one machined to the correct size.  Oh - the bigger pulley diameter is not a huge deal.  That will actually make your pump turn more slowly (under-drive).  The only thing you'll see is possibly more steering effort at idle, since the pump will have a harder time keeping up with fast steering inputs.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 17, 2016, 10:48:32 AM
ok, so that doesn't sound too bad.  I don't mind a little extra effort at idle, as long as I am not over spinning the pump.  Also, in regards to the PS pulley bore diameter, I guess I could find someone to fill in the hole with aluminum (TIG weld?) and then have the bore out a new hole on a lathe?  Honestly, this pulley was the closest thing I could find to a workable piece.  I tried a few different places (Including March Performance) and no one would make a custom pulley, nor did they know where it could be done.  lol

Thanks Guys
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 17, 2016, 05:55:03 PM
I'd like to just repeat what I said and then I will be quiet :)

When compared to the speed of the original modern pump that came on your car....the larger driven pulley diameter will only slow the pump down if the drive pulley is the same size as the original, which my guess is it isn't.

I am not sure it's critical, but until you calculate the ratio between the two pulleys and compare it to the stock ratio, you won't know how fast the pump shaft speed is compared to when it was stock.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 18, 2016, 07:56:41 AM
Hi Ross,

As soon as you posted about this yesterday, I went on another little mission.  I was trying to find specs on the OEM Saleen engines Drive pulley (Crankshaft pulley).  You would not believe how hard that is  LOL.  Since I no longer have the engine, I may have to reach out to the Saleen Forums.  I am sure since Saleen replaced a lot of the stock pieces with performance pieces, a regular GT engine pulley would not be correct.  I am going to try and either email Saleen Directly, or see if I can get a measurement from someone on their forums.  Then I can compare it to the Drive pulley dimensions on the SOHC.

Thank you for speaking up again!  I appreciate all of the assistance.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 18, 2016, 11:39:37 AM
Ok so, still brain storming on the pulley fitment and came across this online:
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/619422AE-398B-452E-B893-D6FF6A4E96E9_zpst68gk9sb.png) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/619422AE-398B-452E-B893-D6FF6A4E96E9_zpst68gk9sb.png.html)

A few questions...
The adapter is for 5/8" diameter shaft.  5/8" is 0.625".  Now the OEM pulley has a shaft bore diameter of 0.629.  Is that close enough to be good for press fit?

Another question is that the OEM pulley is steel and the new v belt is aluminum.  Will this cause an issue?  I was thinking it would be fine as the adapter above is steel as well.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 18, 2016, 06:30:11 PM
A press of 0.004" is a lot, but its close enough to try, and the new part could probably be reamed a little larger if necessary.  Aluminum and steel pulleys will mix just fine.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 18, 2016, 08:25:25 PM
Thanks Jay.  I will pick up the adapter tonight.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: sixty9cobra on May 18, 2016, 11:27:06 PM
Do you have the tool to remove and press on the pulley? If you don't I will gladly lend you mine.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on May 18, 2016, 11:37:34 PM
A press of 0.004" is a lot, but its close enough to try, and the new part could probably be reamed a little larger if necessary.  Aluminum and steel pulleys will mix just fine.

You'd have to heat the hell out of that hub with 0.004" of interference.  I'd be more inclined to have it reamed to 0.001" of interference.  Your typical threaded installation tool should handle that just fine.

Best of luck getting everything together!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 19, 2016, 09:51:56 AM
Thanks guys.  Ill try heating prior to installation.  If too snug, then i'll get it reamed.  The pump came with a small installation kit ( bolt and washer) but with the small tolerance, ill use a pulley installer which is a little more heavy duty.  Given the pulley is aluminum, how hot should I get it and for how long ( bake it in the oven)?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 19, 2016, 12:24:57 PM
You don't need to get it much over 160 degrees to open up significantly.

I'd put it in the oven at 200, and let it sit there for a bit.  Another option is to just hold a heat gun to it

Hot you may not need any tool at all, it may just drop on
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on May 19, 2016, 12:33:50 PM
I would bake it at about 250-275 for 15-20 minutes, or until lightly browned, then add seasoning. A light tangy sauce and you're good to go 8)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on May 19, 2016, 07:18:48 PM
I'll side with Bill C. on this one. I don't like adding significant heat to any part that is in close contact with a seal. IF you were to heat it up and slip it on, be sure to cool it down very quickly, before the heat transfer gets to the seal. If not, you may be repeating the process. The safest way in my opinion is how Bill mentioned with the .001-.0015 press-fit and installing with the special tool. FYI, the "install tool" that comes with the part is junk IMO, it usually gets the pulley halfway on or so, and then stops working. I use the Lisle 39000 tool at work and love it.

Good luck, can't wait to see it go down the road.(Please take a vid or two or more) ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Barry_R on May 20, 2016, 06:26:55 AM
Four thou is a pretty hard press fit.  You'd probably burr up the inside diameter if you were able to get it on.  Should target maybe half that much or less.  But taking a thou or two off the inside diameter of an aluminum part is also pretty easy.  Could probably go "caveman" on it with a flapper wheel on a die grinder or drill and remove that in a pinch - and still remain within whatever the runout spec is on the part.  Might also give yourself a small lead in chamfer if they have not already done so - helps it go on straight.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 20, 2016, 11:28:05 AM
Thanks Barry.  I was reading about someone using a flapper wheel to get the extra clearance. May try that along with heating. Good to know!

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 20, 2016, 08:55:24 PM
Ok Just a small update.  Still awaiting power steering parts, so I wanted to button up the back end.  Used break cleaner to clean up the bell housing backing plate, and the flywheel.  With all the instructions laid out in front of me, I got the flywheel, clutch, and bell housing installed.  The only thing that was bothering me was the fact that there are no torque specs for the bolts for the bell housing.  All of the bolts have lock washers on them, so are torque specs not necessary?  I read the instructions and searched online but could find nothing.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 21, 2016, 01:46:37 PM
Home sweet home!  Lastthing I wantedto do before I put the engine back in the car was to install the starter.  Its a real pain to do it after with that tinyengine bay, and impossible toget a torque wrench in there.  I used 3/8 grade 8 bolts with lock washers and torqued them to 35 ft lbs.  nice and snug, and still enough threads poking out of the other sideto allow me to run the ground wire from the starter to the frame.

Next step will be installing the transmission and driveshaft.

 (http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/FD9974E0-210D-4C06-B482-1975934BAE0E_zpswyvyxdb1.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/FD9974E0-210D-4C06-B482-1975934BAE0E_zpswyvyxdb1.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on May 21, 2016, 02:16:43 PM
 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 21, 2016, 04:34:17 PM
Alright!  Its in there.  I assume the oil pan fit OK?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 21, 2016, 04:46:49 PM
Lol  I had my doubts lowering it down, but it looks like it was made for that cross member.  Lol  fits great!

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: 57 lima bean on May 21, 2016, 08:37:13 PM
Good to hear ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Joe-JDC on May 21, 2016, 10:20:28 PM
Jason, my Shelby shop manual lists 40-50 lbft torque for V-8 engines for the flywheel housing/bellhousing to cylinder block.  Joe-JDC
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 21, 2016, 11:38:55 PM
Just thinking of any more potential issues here, but I can't remember if I put a plug in the rear vacuum port of the intake manifold when I was done on the dyno.  While it was on the dyno I had that connected to the vacuum line from the dyno, so just check to make sure that when I pulled that fitting I put a plug back in the hole.  I'd hate to have you have the same problem there as last time...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 22, 2016, 12:24:22 PM
Hey Jay.  You did plug it.  I want to swap it out for a plug with a hose barb for the vacuum assist brakes. 
Well, today left me sore.  I got the car back on the tall 12 ton jack stands, and wanted to get the transmission installed.  Before I began, I remembered that I had tried a few months ago to swap out a hydraulic line while the tranny was still mounted.  I was able to do it, and with no leaks, but it bothered me not having been able to put the white tefalon tape on.  So, just for piece of mind, i pulled the pressure line and the bleeder line, wrapped the fittings with tape, and tightened them back down. 
After that, I hung the aluminum spacer on the bell housing, and reinstalled the tranny.  In real life, it took me 2 hours to get it to slide in, but in it went.  I put brand new lock washers on all 8 trans mounting bolts, and started hand tightening them one at a time.  I got the 4 easy ones, but still have 4 more to install before I torque them down to 35 ft lbs.  Even though I didnt get all the bolts torqued down, at lease the transmission is reinstalled and off the pallet.  Hoping to get last 4 bolts torqued down tomorrow night and will also be installing the drive shaft too.  Working on 1 project per night going forward.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 22, 2016, 09:51:53 PM
Jason, my Shelby shop manual lists 40-50 lbft torque for V-8 engines for the flywheel housing/bellhousing to cylinder block.  Joe-JDC

Thanks Joe!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 27, 2016, 08:32:51 AM
Hey All.  Small issue, but I guess its good to ask now while the asking is good.  When I took the car for its maiden voyage last year (before pulling the engine and sending it to Jay), my trip was to the Gas station to fill the tank with 93 Octane.  When I got home and it was clear that the engine needed to be pulled, I put a bottle of Stabil fuel stabilizer in the tank.  I did this because I wasn't sure how long I would have the engine out and I didn't want the fuel to go bad (Not easy to pull the tank on this car).  My question is.....  before I hook the fuel lines and such back up in a week or 2......  Do you think the fuel is still good?  I filled the tank and added the fuel stabilizer in September (about) of last year.  Its been about 9 months?

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: fastback 427 on May 27, 2016, 08:42:36 AM
It's probably good enough to burn, but it sure isn't 93 octane anymore. I'd add a can of seafoam and 5 gallons of fresh high octane has depending on room in the tank.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 27, 2016, 09:03:57 AM
The only thing I'd be concerned about is how the self-learning EFI system will react once you get new fuel in there.  It may have to learn some more at that point  ;D, which may keep you from having the tune dialed in for a little longer.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 27, 2016, 02:45:00 PM
I'd run it, you'll go through it so quickly it won't matter ;)

I would say though, after you get a tank through it, change the filter, can't hurt and if anything varnished it'll likely be there
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 27, 2016, 02:56:50 PM
Thanks Guys.  I honestly am trying to go super slow and cautious at this point.  Better Safe than sorry...... Don't want to screw up any of Jays beautiful craftsmanship! ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on May 27, 2016, 04:53:20 PM
Change it. Period.
I deal almost every day with issues from equipment that has sat for periods of 3-6 months, and it's a pain in my butt. 99% of the time, they won't start. I'll flush the gas out, add new and that generally solves the problem. I'm not talking about cars, but a gas engine is a gas engine, and if a small engine won't even fire on 4 month old gas, well, what does that tell you about the gas? Todays fuel is junk, even the small equipment dealer I deal with says that 90% of the problems they see are from todays fuels. Their recommendation is if it is going to sit for more than a month, drain the gas. They even quit recommending stabilizer products because they just didn't work good enough.

In the past 10 years, my personal small equipment has never failed to start in the spring time. This year NOTHING would even fire. I changed out the gas and everything fired right up. Personally, I think the fuel has gotten even worse recently, and I only live 15 miles from a refinery!

Your car will likely run on it, but why use it when it's degraded? Pull it out, mix it with a little fresh and use it in your lawnmower or whatever else you have.

This is just what I would do if it were my car, which it's not ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 27, 2016, 08:39:07 PM
Change it. Period.
I deal almost every day with issues from equipment that has sat for periods of 3-6 months, and it's a pain in my butt. 99% of the time, they won't start. I'll flush the gas out, add new and that generally solves the problem. I'm not talking about cars, but a gas engine is a gas engine, and if a small engine won't even fire on 4 month old gas, well, what does that tell you about the gas? Todays fuel is junk, even the small equipment dealer I deal with says that 90% of the problems they see are from todays fuels. Their recommendation is if it is going to sit for more than a month, drain the gas. They even quit recommending stabilizer products because they just didn't work good enough.

In the past 10 years, my personal small equipment has never failed to start in the spring time. This year NOTHING would even fire. I changed out the gas and everything fired right up. Personally, I think the fuel has gotten even worse recently, and I only live 15 miles from a refinery!

Your car will likely run on it, but why use it when it's degraded? Pull it out, mix it with a little fresh and use it in your lawnmower or whatever else you have.

This is just what I would do if it were my car, which it's not ;)

Certainly good concervative advice and will only cost a few dollars.  That being said I haven't been bit yet, at least not in the 6-12 month timeframe, I have seen some sick stuff come out of tanks in more extreme timelines.  Maybe it's coming, the Mustang is still bagged up in storage, I hope not!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on May 28, 2016, 11:01:04 AM
Certainly good concervative advice and will only cost a few dollars.  That being said I haven't been bit yet, at least not in the 6-12 month timeframe, I have seen some sick stuff come out of tanks in more extreme timelines.  Maybe it's coming, the Mustang is still bagged up in storage, I hope not!

That's just my take on it. That gas has been sitting for nearly a year, I guarantee that it has degraded some. Why even mess with it on such a high dollar build. Throw it in your daily driver or something that doesn't matter as much. That engine is going to want good clean fuel.

I work on everything from small weedeaters and handmowers to fleet cars, big tractors and trucks. Small engines are very particular, and a degraded fuel is enough to not let them run. Like I said, they may not be cars, but it certainly tells you something about the gas.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Cyclone Joe on May 28, 2016, 02:19:11 PM
If you can pour a bit out to see its color....do it.  Old gas will turn green like antifreeze, and will smell like combo of a rotten eggs and a dead cat smoothie. 

Dont go cheap on us now!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 28, 2016, 02:27:41 PM
Ok small update.  Transmission fully installed and torqued down to 35 ft lbs ( tothe bell housing)  trans cross member bolts all torqued down to 45 ft lbs and the transmission bolts that hold the tail section to the trans cross member torqued down to 46 ft lbs.  Driveshaft reinstalled and the yoke bolts/ caps could not be torqued given tye angle of the bolts.  I tightened them down to where I felt secure with their supplied washer and lockwasher.....  Drivetrain officially all "re-installed".  I also remounted the cable I made to act as a ground strap from the back of one of te starter bolts to the cross member.

Now its a matter of refilling the transmission with fluid and hooking back up all of the wiring....
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 28, 2016, 04:24:39 PM
Awesome, keep going!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 31, 2016, 07:42:33 AM
Not much done over the weekend.  I had to go purchae additional fully synthetic Transmission fluid to re-fill after the installation.  While I was down there, I noticed a little engine oil on the front passenger side ( right on the exhaust outlet and a little below.)  I wiped it clean, but wanted to let it sit for a day or 2 to see if it is still leaking.  I remember Jay had told me that after the engine runs a little ( dyno) that the valve covers might need to be snugged down again just due to shrinkage of the cork gasket.  In addition to using the load leveler to get the motor mount bolts in, I am guessing a little spillage may have occurred.  Either way, I wanted to see where it was coming from before installing the headers and letting the car back down off the jack stands.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 31, 2016, 08:07:28 PM
Ok, all is well and no oil. I crawled under the car last night and looked around for anything out of the ordinary.  It would seem like there was just a little seepage when it was being tilted on installation.  All clear now for header installation (I just didn't want to get the ceramic coating dirty....... even though I know its all mental on my part).  Hoping to get them installed in the next few days.  I also realize that these forum posts are a lot more interesting and fun with Photos!  I will try and get some more photos posted in the next few days as well.  I am dying to show a photo of the custom oil pan Jay created and how well it fit into the tubular K member. LOL

Another item I noticed was that one of the chassis nuts that holds the tubular K member to the car is missing!  I wouldn't even guess how that came loose and disappeared....  They were all torqued to something like 85 ft lbs.  Definitely possible I missed torqueing one.  Either way, it took me the better part of 3 hours to track down a part number for a single nut on the front of this car.  I put in an order to Tasca for a new set of 4 and will make sure to reinstall and re-torque them all before letting the car down.  Slow and steady is paying off!

One last thing I have had on the back burner for a little while now is attaching the OEM power steering pump to the Cammer engine.  I think I have worked out the pulley problem by getting the Howe pulley adapter and ordering one of their pulleys that bolts onto the adapter.  Only issue is that I believe the March Pulleys are 7/16" belts and the new Howe pulley is a 3/8" belt.  To be honest, other than asking a machine shop to custom make me a pulley, this is as close as I am going to get.  I have been trying to work out a way to install the pulley on the FE bracket that bolts to the Drivers side of the water pump, but its tricky as the OEM pump has 4 bolts that come up from the bottom (given how its installed on a Modular 4.6.

They sell a Coyote swap braket (for like $260), that allows you to install the pump on a new coyote motor, however I don't think it would be of much use.  Any ideas on how to install this would be great. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 02, 2016, 05:14:24 PM
Listening to a previous poster, i wanted to wrap the headers in plastic before installing.  As the ceramic coating seems easily damaged, i will install them wrapped, and then just pull off the plastic before slipping on the collectors.  Just finished wrapping:

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/2BFA404C-038C-4142-B40B-A96204CC6651_zpsn7376gxf.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/2BFA404C-038C-4142-B40B-A96204CC6651_zpsn7376gxf.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 03, 2016, 06:15:02 AM
Headers look great!

Going to tease you here...if the nut was torqued, it didn't loosen up and fall off :)  Either you took it off and don't remember, you left it loose, or you never put it on.  Not an important comment, we've all done it, but an opportunity to snap you with a towel in the locker room, so to speak  :o

I will say that your power steering pulley will likely be an issue over time.  A V-belt drives off the sides of the V not the bottom.  You have the best possible mismatch, if forced to mismatch, where the driven pulley is smaller than the drive, BUT, if your drive pulley is 7/16, you need to run the 7/16 belt so it won't slip and it will likely eat belts.  Try it, but that belt will be sitting high in the groove and to get it to not slip, it'll likely have to be pretty tight.  If you use a 3/8 belt, it'll likely slip on the drive side

Keep going though!  This should be one hell of a ride
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 03, 2016, 07:37:27 AM
Thanks Ross.  Yea I am pretty sure I just did not torque it down.  LOL.  I will make sure I re-torque all of them again while the car is up on stands (because If I put it down off the Jack stands, I will likely forget to do it later  LOL).

Anyway, Last night I was able to put on the Passenger side headers.  Just to explain how little room there is down there, I am able to access the front most 2 header bolts easily.  other than that, its a lot of reaching down from under the hood to try and get the bolts tightened (not torqued) as best as I can.  There is literally no room at all!  I put brand new lock washers on all of the Grade 8 bolts before tightening them down.  Since the headers had to be split up in order to get them in and out (see the picture above), the flange is cut into 3 pieces.  At the place where each section of flange was cut, is a bolt hole.  At these 2 places, I used a flat washer and a lock washer just because it seemed like sort of a weak spot (being where the flange was divided).

I am hoping that since the engine sits more toward the passenger side than the drivers, that the headers will go on a little simpler on the Drivers side (more room to finagle).  Just so I can put this down in writing (for my own reference mostly), the headers need to go on as follows:

The front most tube needs to be fed in from the back side (between the bell housing and the K member).  Once its fed in to where the flange is roughly the right place, it is laid down on the K member (not bolted up yet).  Then, one of the bolts with a flat washer and a lock washer (used where the flange was divided) is threaded in only a few turns.  This will allow you to "hang the second set of tubes temporarily).  Then, the second set of tubes is slowly snaked in from the back side as well.  you need to feed them in with one hand while turning the first tube you inserted a little to allow the second set to twist into the right place.  Once you get the second set of tubes up to the gasket, you can slip the flange up under the bolt with the flat washer and lock washer so it stays put.  Once the second set of tubes is hanging there, you can then take the first tube and slip it up against the second flange (it makes more sense when you realize that where each flange was cut, the ends of the flange contain half a bolt hole.  So the first tube inserted is slid back up against the bolt holding the second set of tubes.  At this point, the front 2 bolt holes on the flange are aligned and can bolted down using a grade 8 with lock washer alone.  Now, the second set of tubes hasn't been tightened down yet, and should not be. At this point another bolt with flat washer and lock washer is placed into the other side of the flange of the second set of tubes.  this bolt is also left loose (in order to slide the last tube under. The last tube needs to now be inserted from behind, and by leaving the second set loose, you can carefully wiggle them a little to allow the last tube to be put into place.  Once you slide the last tubes flange under the loose bolt, its end two bolt holes in the flange are aligned and can have bolts inserted and tightened.  Unfortunately, by this point, you cant see or reach any of the bolts.  So you have to reach down from under the hood back by the firewall with 2 bolts and hand screw them into the last tubes flange.  luckily at this point, even though its going to rub off some skin, you can carefully slide the smallest ratchet with a 14mm socket down by the pipes and using only 2 fingers, get a little turn on each bolt.  it took a while, but each bolt was tightened from the top. 

OK that was confusing, but like I said, it was more for me (so I have reference next time they need to come off).  LOL  Oh and by the way....  since there is almost no room at all, it took another hour to slowly pull off the plastic wrap I used to stop the ceramic coating from being scratched up.  Totally worth it though because the headers were installed without any dings, dents of scratches!  And there was plenty of tube-on-tube-on-K member contact!

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 04, 2016, 06:36:08 AM
Last comment based on the header challenge.

Depending on the style lock, they may not help you at all.  However they likely won't hurt either.   If a spring type, as they head cycle they could get weak, but being compressed that won't really hurt.  A star washer can be a little better, but they usually are pretty flimsy and don't like to overlap a slotted hole (if that applies) The key is you HAVE to make sure those bolts are tight, lubed if you didn't (I like silver or gold antiseize), and equally important, tightened evenly.  If there is a bolt or two that you said "good enough" it probably isn't

I like to go back through them hot, wearing work gloves, but you may not be able to.  I recommend after you consider that side done, that you find every different 7/16 wrench you have, 1/4 and 3/8 drive sockets and anything else you need to get a positive "oomph" on the bolts and go back and retighten them, attempting to make them good and tight AND evenly tight.

Header gaskets last almost forever if you don't have a bouncing exhaust, backfires, or loose bolts, any one of those things though, they go away quickly.

Also, if you didn't lube the bolts, I would start over.  Call me a header geek, but someday you will need to take those out, and if you didn't, you "might" get lucky, or they might fight you every step of the way.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 04, 2016, 02:51:25 PM
Thanks Ross.  I will make sure !  Anyway, I tried to get a few photos today, but being that the car is on jackstands and I cant zoom out, these are the best I could get.  Firts picture is Jays modification to tye oilpan and how close of a fit it is on tye drivers side K member:
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/D1F7414C-5AF1-4E89-9DFC-33F9F2FCA21A_zpsebnsefa6.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/D1F7414C-5AF1-4E89-9DFC-33F9F2FCA21A_zpsebnsefa6.jpg.html)

Passenger side has a little more room:
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/9BB76C6E-A39E-4602-B37E-3DB3A05D3E8E_zpsd3dqiu5z.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/9BB76C6E-A39E-4602-B37E-3DB3A05D3E8E_zpsd3dqiu5z.jpg.html)

Finally drivers side exhaust ports before header pipe installation.
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/E5F2C86A-6539-4058-A229-D5B05255C4ED_zpsx4k5cwqx.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/E5F2C86A-6539-4058-A229-D5B05255C4ED_zpsx4k5cwqx.jpg.html)


  Let me be the first to say it WAS NOT EASIER than the passenger side.  Sadly the last bolt that was easily accessable before is blocked with the newly fabricated oil pan kick outs.  It took me about 2.5 hours just to get the last bolt in the header flange ( nearest the firewall).  Lol  and Like Ross said, I made sure that I tightened it until it wouldnt turn anymore. 

All in all, installed the headers, collectors, retorqued the K member bolts ( replaced the one that was missing), installed the O2 sensor, reinstalled the X pipe, and finally a cross support bar that runs from drivers to passenger side under the bell housing ( structural support).  Feel good at this point, but may install the radiator and lower radiator hose before I put if back on its wheels.  Until tomorrow fellas........
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 06, 2016, 08:12:58 AM
Not really a huge update, but the Radiator is in.  The upper radiator hose has been attached as well as the lower (The lower always gives a little trouble as it shares the same space with the Power Steering pump (in its current configuration).  As I have not manufactured a bracket to hold the OEM power steering pump, I have attached the old one in its place just to keep the fluid from leaking out.  The de-gas bottle (overflow tank) had to be moved from the Passenger side radiator mount to the Driver Side wheel well location.  This had to be done for a few reasons.  First, the aluminum fan shroud I have does not have an attachment point like the stock one does for the tank.  In addition, there is so little room up front, that the coolant line that attaches the de-gas tank to the rest of the system (to a hose barb off of the lower radiator hose) used to have to run behind the water pump (sort of crimping the line).  Finally, the de gas bottle block the location that is needed to use a timing light.  Luckily, there was a makeshift bracket previously used for what I believe was part of the alarm system.  Its in exactly the right place, and although a more beefy bracket should be made from aluminum (or steel), it allowed me to bolt up the degas tank temporarily just to run the lines and get an idea of where it should be placed.  Luckily, its actually mounted a tiny bit higher than the stock location, so it should assist with that pesky overflow problem I was having previously.  Its still not as high as the huge water neck on the intake manifold, but hopefully it will work.

So tonight I will replace the stronger Spal fans with the lower profile Spal fans that originally came on the shroud. I believe that these will cool the engine fine now that its getting oil (LOL) and the headers are now ceramic coated.  By using the lower profile fans, there is no interference with the front of the engine and thus the radiator can stay in its stock location.  If these fans wont cool the engine at this point, the radiator will need to be moved forward a little bit to give clearance for the larger fan motors.

Almost there......  After the shrouds, I will remount the throttle bodies, re-attach all of the EFI Electrical, and get the gauge sensors attached.  Slowly but surely
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 07, 2016, 03:07:42 PM
Not that wiring is fun at all (Because for me it is not!), but I wanted to plan a little ahead for all of the gauges I added to the car given that the stock instrument cluster is not useful.  From what I remember off the top of my head, I purchased an oil pressure gauge, Oil temperature, coolant temp gauge, and a few others I think (4 or 5 total).  I purchased 2 mini bus bars (Common Bus Bar with (2) #10-32 Studs & (5) #8-32 Screws)  in order to access 12V switched power and the dimmer power supply off of the back of the radio a little easier???  It wouldn't be so bad except that I am adding wires to a car already chalk full of excess wires!  What I wouldn't pay to have someone remove all of the wires off of the engine harness that are no longer being utilized  LOL  sooooo many wires...  sooooo many plugs
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 07, 2016, 07:20:48 PM
Ok, swapped out the spal fans back to the smaller ones.  I am really praying these 2 fans will keep it cool.  I have one that constantly runs as soon as the car is on.  The other is controlled by the relay on the efi computer.  Got the fans wired up. And the shroud installed.  Below is a picture of the smaller and larger fans.  Second photo shows the difference in motor size:

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/4E55267A-4E66-4595-B217-33E88A2CF21D_zpseb9pq2ei.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/4E55267A-4E66-4595-B217-33E88A2CF21D_zpseb9pq2ei.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/3ABBBC07-314E-46FD-801D-5731670841B3_zps8scmfinw.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/3ABBBC07-314E-46FD-801D-5731670841B3_zps8scmfinw.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: gdaddy01 on June 07, 2016, 09:44:36 PM
and they say football is a game of inches .
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 08, 2016, 08:17:36 AM
Small fans supposedly have a CFM rating of 1250.  Unsure if this will be enough, but I am praying now that the engine has been rebuilt correctly and the headers covered (and the HUGE Vacuum leak has been handled....  that the engine won't be running as hot as it was my last go around.  There is a ton of room in front of the radiator for fresh air....  and the space between the bottom of the radiator and the tip of the bottom of the front bumper has a large plastic skid sheet that closes it off from the ground.  This funnels fresh air in when the car is moving as well as sitting still with the fans on.

Fingers crossed LOL

Next step is to hook up the throttle bodies and throttle linkage.  I am not going to hook up the fuel line until I have a chance to install the battery.  I want to use the fuel pumps to pump the fuel tanks dry (into gas jugs), and then I can add fresh fuel.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 08, 2016, 09:17:38 AM
OK, have the measurements from the 2 small Spal fans (Straight blade) that came with my aluminum shroud:

Fan, Spal, Electric, Single, 11.00 in. Diameter, 808 cfm, 12 V, Pusher, Black Plastic Shroud, Each

Don't know why they are advertised on "protuninglabs.com" as 13" fans that pull 1250 CFM... but they are actually 11" fans that together pull 1616 CFM's

I found replacements (to my replacements that were too big) on Summit:

Fan, Spal, Electric, Single, 11.00 in. Diameter, 844 cfm, 12 V, Puller, Black Plastic Shroud, Each

These would fit exactly the same as the ones on there now, but be S blades and Pull a total of 1688 CFM's

In the end, would an extra 72 CFM's be worth another $200.00
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 08, 2016, 01:06:18 PM
I personally think any combination listed won't be enough

I like to stay in the thousands of cfm, and as crazy as it may sound, would like to see 4000+ if possible in a tight engine compartment (lack of exit airflow) and a warm environment, even more if using A/C.

Is there any way to run a big fixed blade Flexalite? 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 08, 2016, 03:15:16 PM
Hi Ross.  The short answer?  No.  Even if I move the radiator forward the 1 inch that's possible, its still not enough room (The OEM fan was one of those large flaxalite fans).  The only option would be to put the biggest most powerful fan I can find on the front of the radiator and try and push air through..... Which from what I read is 25% less efficient than Puller fans.  So then I find myself subtracting 25% efficiency for any pusher fan I can find that will fit the dimensions of the radiator. (Plus, I lose the added benefit of the shroud if using a pusher)



Possible winter driver only?  HAHAHA
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 08, 2016, 07:13:11 PM
Another quick night in the garage ( updating this post on my phone).  Pulled the plug on the vacuum port on the back of the intake manifold ( the infamous vacuum port) and put in a threaded hose barb with thread sealer.  I then reconnected the vacuum assist brake line to this barb.

I then installed the 2 efi FAST throttle bodies as well as the throttle linkage.  I reinstalled the fuel return line to the throttle body (That runs to the fuel pressure regulator), but left the fuel supply line off ( for future draining).  Finally reinstalled the air cleaner and stopped for the night.  Still heading in the right direction.

Update:

OK EFI system is connected.  I purchased 2 more "electrical buss strips" for all of the add on's.  There is about 5 or so separate power lines running to the battery, and it looks very messy.  I purchased a buss strip so I can run each power wire to a dedicated screw on the strip.  The other buss strip will be used for the switched power/ dimmer power for each gauge.  I was incorrect about the number of gauges I have.  There are only 3.  Oil temperature (Will plug the sensor into the front port in the oil pan), Coolant temp (sensor is in the top of the intake manifold), and Oil pressure (Sensor will be screwed into the top of the oil filter adapter).

Also this weekend I added hydraulic fluid to the master cylinder (which feeds the brakes and the Clutch).  instead of crawling under the car and bleeding it through the bleed line on the transmission, I used a "mightyvac" hand pump with a custom fitting to plug into the top of the reservoir.  There was a lot of air!  It took about 20-30 times of bringing the vacuum pressure up to 20 and then watching as air bubbles out of the tube.  toward the end, I pumped the vacuum up to 20, and then just held the clutch line down.  You could hear the fluid bubble in and the air being sucked out.  Wanted to get the fluid in so the o rings in the throw out bearing stayed lubricated.  Also, no leaks which is a good thing  :)

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 10, 2016, 10:25:55 AM
A little sad that I am just now thinking this....... But could I not keep the 2 small Spal fans with the aluminum shroud pulling air.....  I can have them both tied into the toggle in the car so they run constantly when the car is on........  (Wait for it)

And then a LARGE S blade Pusher fan on the front of the radiator ties into the FAST EFI relay?

This was the 2 smaller fans run always, but the bigger one kicks on only when the EFI pre-set temperature is reached?  I wasn't sure if this was totally logical since the aluminum shroud holding the 2 smaller fans would block some of the air flow?

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/spu-ix-30102048/overview/

Thoughts?  This would be a super easy fix I think.......3 fans total?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Drew Pojedinec on June 10, 2016, 11:01:38 AM
If it makes you feel better, I live in the same area as you climate wise.
I run two Flex a lit 112's

1105cfm each, each pulls 8 amps.
I have them mounted as pushers and they do the job (assuming everything else is in good condition).
It's marginal, but it works.

When cruising they are just peachy, when in long term traffic the temps can pop to 210.
Someday I'll get a better radiator and bigger fans, but this *can* function as the minimum for air movement.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 10, 2016, 11:32:14 AM
Thanks Drew.  I might do it.  I have almost NO room at all in the engine compartment, but like a foot and a half of space in front of the radiator!  WASTED.  would take nothing to drop a fan on the front, so I may give it a try with the 3 smaller straight blade spals and the 3 row radiator.....  see how it does, and if not, connect a bigger pusher to the relay and the smaller ones to the toggle.

Thanks.  Good to hear from someone in similar climate (HOT).  93 degrees today and supposed to be 97 this upcoming week  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 12, 2016, 04:21:48 PM
Not a huge post.  I was able to replace the OEM sender for coolant temp as well as the sender for oil pressure.  The new senders came with my gauges so I actually get numeric readings.  The only one I couldnt install was the oil temp sender.  I want to utilize the front of the oil pan.  It has a seperate magnetic plug, but the 2 brass adapters that came with the sender do not fit the plug hole.  Will have to take the plugwith me to home depot or Napa to find the appropriate size brass adapter. 

In other news, i was doodeling in the garage this weekend, and something caught my eye.  The drivers rear wheel stick out further than the passanger.  Maybe 1/4 to 1/2 "?  Did some research and All Mustangs, Saleens and even Shelbys have this issue!  Came from the factory like this!  WTH?  Lol  Inter-webs say it hurts nothing, and that you really only see it with wide tires..... Which Saleens and Shelbys have!  Anyway, it kind of bothers me, so before i let it down, I ordered an adjustable Panhard Bar to pull it in.  Best to do it now.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on June 12, 2016, 07:51:44 PM
I've run three fans before, usually two pushers and one puller.  No reason you can't run an extra pusher, it sure can't hurt - Jay
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 12, 2016, 09:08:53 PM
I actually have two fans behind my a/c condenser and in front of my radiator.  They are hidden, but turn on by temp as a backup, or when the a/c is on.

I rarely ever hear them come on in Nebraska, but when living in Southern VA and in Las Vegas NV, they'd turn on all the time in traffic
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 13, 2016, 09:40:43 AM
Thanks Guys.  I went ahead and purchased the Spal "S" blade 16" pusher.  Its rated at almost 2000 CFM's, and in conjunction with the 1600 CFM Puller fans, I am feeling a little better.  I will have the Pusher 16" connected to the relay through the EFI computer.  It will kick on at a predetermined temp.  The puller fans will just run constantly through the toggle switch.

I also managed to track down an adapter for the oil temp sender.  The sender has 1/8" -27 NPT, but the Oil Pan plug was not NPT.  It was 1/2-20 (which was hard to find).  I managed to track one down through Speedway motors that works in a brake system. That will complete my Sender install and I can then run the wires through the firewall through an unused OEM firewall plug by the battery to the gauges.

We are almost there. I can smell it!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 14, 2016, 02:18:05 PM
Went out to the garage last night to look (sadly) at the wiring.  What I really want to do it to put the FAST EFI computer in the car (by way of a firewall plug).  Unfortunately all of the available plugs are either too small, or to far away to reach.  I spend a few minutes on Google, and found an article on Hotrod magazine (I believe) where they actually said how big a hole and grommet they used on a 602's Camaro to run the FAST computer into the Glove Compartment.  Hole needs to be 1-3/8", and that will be sufficient to pass the plug through.  There is an unused oval shaped plug on the firewall in the perfect place, so I am going to drill right over that hole, and pop in a firewall plug to pass it through.  Having that computer in the car will make me feel tons better.  Firewall grommets are already on their way.

I also would like to do the same thing with the MSD 6A Ignition box which is also sitting loosely by the master cylinder.  The childish part of me wants to leave all as is and get out and enjoy it, but the adult in me wants to take my time after all of this..........  and do the last few items correctly  LOL  Same old story I guess.

Update:

OK last night I went back in the garage (that desperately needs a fan or some sort of ventilation!  LOL).  I wanted to tackle the wiring or at the very least get a start on it.  I started by scouting out a location for my mini buss bar.  I wanted to make it close enough that all of the auxiliary power wires would reach it, but far enough away so that the wiring wasn't all bird nested in one area.  I chose the side of the strut tower (facing the front of the car).  This will allow me to run my jumper power wire to the battery, and also allow me to organize and hide a lot of the wiring.  To give you an idea, there were 9 auxiliary power wires running to the battery!!!  LOL.  Last night I managed to move 5 of them to the mini buss bar before calling it a night, but the remaining ones on the battery are the MSD Ignition box, the Power wire for the FAST efi, and one power wire for each fuel pump (so 2 power wires there).  I think I can move the fuel pump power feeds to the buss bar, and then just have the FAST efi power wire (which has to be directly on the battery per the instructions) and the MSD ignition box.

With this completed, the harness for the FAST efi computer was free!!!  I can now run it through the hole/grommet I will make and place it behind the glove box in the car.  I also want to run the MSD ignition box into the car but I am unsure if I can use the same grommet hole?  would the wiring create electrical interference to the efi computer wires if they were run through the same grommet? 

Also, I have a 12V switched source I am using for the EFI computer.  Do you think I can use the other mini buss bar to run a few leads to the 12V switched?  I can run from the fuse box (12V switched) to the mini Buss bar, and then from the buss bar to the computer, oil temp gauge, oil pressure gauge, and the coolant temp gauge.  I think this would work well since its only switched power, but I wanted to ask incase I am forgetting anything.  That would be MUCH better than pulling the dash to access the radio switched wire and dimmer wire (which is suggested on other Mustang forums when adding aftermarket gauges.  LOL

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: newfalconowner on June 15, 2016, 03:00:18 PM
i have my Fast ECU on the left side kick panel with wiring running up the rocker panel trim to my battery (its in the trunk), and my MSD box under the passenger side glove box with the power wire running down the right rocker under the door trim. Fast said to separate the power wire from other electronics or it will get feedback. I use plastic spiral wrap to cover the wires. just thought that would help in some small way :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 16, 2016, 07:47:32 AM
OK, thanks.  To be safe, I will try and run them through different grommets as far apart as I can.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on June 16, 2016, 07:59:03 AM
That's a good idea, the power wires on an MSD move a lot of current and can create a lot of radio interference.  My old MSD-7 used to fuzz the neighbors TV when I drove by, back in the broadcast days...

Also a capacitor like the MSD cap, put between the power lines right up at the MSD and the EFI box, is very useful for eliminating interference.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 16, 2016, 12:47:51 PM
Thanks Jay.  I do remember that you had mentioned that capacitor idea earlier in the forum posts.  I will definitely look into that while running these harnesses inside the cab.
 :)


(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/Capture_zpssodazncq.png) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/Capture_zpssodazncq.png.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: mmason on June 16, 2016, 01:04:13 PM
It will also protect the MSD box from voltage spikes. Here is a quote from MSD.
Along with reducing or eliminating line noise, the 8830 filter will also guard against heavy voltage spikes or surges. Our ignition controls themselves are desinged in such a way that moderate fluctuations in the electrical system will not affect them. However, because the ignition is tied directly to the battery, there may be an instant where a large spike or surge can adamage the unit. Some of the causes can be linked to a low battery, defective alternator, welding on the vehicle, or using a battery charger to start the engine.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: mbrunson427 on June 16, 2016, 05:47:49 PM
If you have any problems with the fans, look into this......

http://www.moparpartssource.com/p/Dodge__/FAN-MODULE--RADIATOR-Engine-Cooling--Radiator-Cooling/42204314/04854720AA.html

I know, i know, its MOPAR stuff.....but its a fan assembly from a Viper. Rated at 3000 CFM on low speed and 4000 CFM on high speed. A lot of the turbo guys use them to get the heat out of the engine compartments. I know Nelson Racing Engines uses them on most of their builds. Start watching at 14:30... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyeotHRZ-XI
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jmlay on June 16, 2016, 06:08:54 PM
If you are so inclined you could pull the wires from the connector & cut a smaller hole, feed the wires through & re-install the connector. Anothe roption would be to obtain a bulkhead connector with the correct number of connections.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 18, 2016, 03:04:18 PM
Ok  today was slighty cooler, so into the garage I went.  Until the grommets come, i can not pull the computer harness into the "cockpit".  So today I pulled out the old Panhard bar and slipped in the BMR adjustable one.  Its a little thicker that the stock one, but it just cleared the currie rear end- just cleared.  After a few adjustments and measurements, we are within the 1/4 inch of tolerance from even. 

I got the 16" Spal pusher fan yesterday and will mount that on the front with the mounting hardware that it came with.  I also already have the wiring completely run from tye ECU through the FAST fan relay with the wire hanging there to connect to the fan.  Yesterday the adapter was delivered as well to insert the last sender ( oil temp) into the extra bung in the front oil pan sump.  1/2-20 male with 1/8 NPT female.  Took a while to track this part down, so hopefully it works fine.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 21, 2016, 11:04:43 AM
Was working on the wiring again last night.  Moved the power supply lines for the dual fuel pumps to the Buss Bar now.  Last and only 2 items on the Batter directly are the ECU and the Ignition box.  The directions for both of these said their power wires must go directly to the battery, so I will leave them there (since all 5 spots on the Buss bar are not accounted for).

While I in there, I decided I wanted to give the grounding "situation" another look.  So the OEM ground wire that goes to the battery, I had flattened out and bolted to the engine block by way of one of the motor mount bolts.  I then have the starter grounded with the mini battery cable I made a few months ago.  One side is grounded to a roughed up spot on the K member (roughed up because of the thick powder coating) and the other I put on the end of one of the starter bolts.  I didn't put it under the head of the bolt, but on the end of the bolt that protrudes out of the back of the bell housing.  Lastly, there was the little braided grounding strap that was originally on the modular engine I pulled.  Normally, this braided grounding strap was connected to the back of one of the heads, and then the other side was connected to a grounding stud on the firewall.  I actually saw that there is an off nodular part on the block right behind where the alternator mounts, there is a threaded hole in there, and perfectly, there is an unused bolt on the chassis right across from it.  I installed the braided strap there because of 2 reasons.  First, not you cant see it and second, it seemed like a better place to have the current travel (closer to the starter) than having it make it all the way over to the drivers side head. (learned to be a little more cautious since the steel braided hydraulic hoses for the clutch got burned up last time I didn't ground well).

Still waiting on the grommets to put the ECU under the dash, so while I wait, I need to drill out the brass adapter I purchased for the oil temp sender.  As mentioned earlier, I managed to track down one with the correct threads on the female and male ends, but it is a part used in braking systems.  So the male end has a concave end to it with a reduced diameter hole.  I want to carefully put it in the vice and then drill press it a little at a time to open up the hole without hurting the threads inside.

Other than that, system has coolant in it (as much as would fit with the thermostat closed) and I now need to fill it up with oil (after installing the sender into the pan bung).  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 24, 2016, 07:40:27 AM
OK, last night I picked up the appropriate size hole saw (1-3/8") in order to use the new grommets I purchased to run the EFI harness through the firewall.  In getting ready to dive in, I thought to myself, " how reliable is the information I found online about the unused oval firewall plug/pass through that I planned on utilizing?  So I put the frill down and popped out the plug to feel around inside with my finger.  It felt like heater/AC vent hose material, but I wasn't sure.  So looking under the dashboard by the glove box, I tried to see what it would be, but like everywhere else in this car, there is no spare space!  Under the dashboard is full of "stuff" with no room to see or feel around.  So then I tried shining my light into the hole in the engine compartment to see if I could see light under in the car.  No Luck.  Then it hit me.  It wasn't the AC/Heater vent hose I was seeing. It was the cabin Air filter (which I am guessing) is inside the heater box?  Unsure.

So luckily I did not drill out that hole.  After about 30 min or so of feeling around ( I cant explain how little to no room there is in that engine bay with the Cammer engine in there)....  I saw what looks like a rubber "Duck Bill" lower on the fire wall.  In Googling this, its a drain for water that gets in the cowl vents.  That wouldn't work either, but then I felt what ended up being another unused oval plug on the firewall (Much like the first one that lead to the air filter).  Its roughly at the corner of the passenger head but on the firewall.   I pushed a screwdriver into the hole after popping out the plug, and then went into the car to see where it came out.  Luckily There was the end of the screwdriver popping out of the foam insulation mat right above where the carpet ends under the passenger side dash.  Perfect!  Then I took the 1-3/8" hole saw (using the screwdriver hole as reference of the center, and cut away the foam insulation.  Dead on.  There was the oval hole in the firewall and I could see into the engine compartment.  A few seconds later and I had my hole to pass through the EFI wire harness.

Since the Grommets will fit snug on the harness, it cant really be slid up the harness from either end.  I think I will have to slit it with a razor, and then after pulling the harness through the hole and into position, I can tuck the grommet in around the harness (hopefully).  I will be doing this tomorrow.  Hopefully I can then reinstall the battery, pump out the fuel (into my lawn tractor), refill and start!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 27, 2016, 07:53:55 AM
Another small update on the way to the "promise land"  LOL.

I was able to get the wire harness through the firewall finally!  Unfortunately, the firewall grommet can not be slid on to the harness from either end.  With this being the case, I took a straight edge razor and slit one side of the grommet.  After getting the harness through the hole (carefully because of the sharp metal), I then "fished" the grommet around the harness wire bundle.  It took a bit of contorting just given that the pass through is under the dash, but I got it installed that the hole and grommet size was a perfect fit! Thank you Hot Rod Magazine article  LOL

Then it was just a matter of hooking back up all 8 injectors, MAP sensor, throttle position sensor, air temp sensor, coolant temp sensor, Power, Ground, and the fan relay.....  Long story short, we are back in business with almost no "birds nest" of wires left.

Ordered 2 different methods of attachment points for the large Spal pusher fan.  I got these plastic zip tie's type system for which you basically pin the fan to the radiator through the fins with zip tie's.   And then I picked up 4 metal brackets offered by Spal.  These basically require you to drill into the radiator surround (of the chassis depending on your application) and it bolts the fan to the front of the radiator.  I actually chose the metal brackets since in order to use the zip tie system, I would have had to remove the puller fans and the shroud in order to access the zip ties from the inside.  Didn't want to bother with that, and I feel better with the metal brackets holding the fan to the front.  So in total, there is about 3500 CFM worth of fans now on the 3 core radiator.  I will set the pusher fan to come on through the ECU at about 180 degrees, and the 2 puller fans will be controlled with the toggle switch on engine start and run constantly.

I just need to Run the Sender wires for the oil temp, oil pressure and coolant temp to the gauges, and then each gauge to a 12V Switched power source (for which I purchased another mini buss bar to make that way easier).......  And I am ready to swap fuel and Drive!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 28, 2016, 11:44:35 AM
Question......

I have since relocated the Degas bottle from the passenger Side radiator mount, to the Drivers side front of the wheel tub mount.  I am not just realizing that when it was the OEM 4.6 Modular motor, that the Degas bottle was the highest point in the coolant system.  With the Cammer engine, the engine sits at about the same height as the Modular motor, but the long "elephant trunk" style water neck comes up pretty high.  When I moved the degas bottle to the drivers side wheel tub location (still in the engine bay), I may have gained an inch (estimate), but I think the water neck is now even with the degas bottle.

2 part question......:

1) Was the overflow from the degas bottle when I ran this engine last year partly due to the fact that it was lower than the water neck?

2) Does the degas bottle need to be higher than the water neck or will about even do?  Hard to get much higher as the bottle is touching the hood heat matting at this height.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jmlay on June 28, 2016, 03:46:41 PM
The top of the bottle should be highest point I the cooling system. Air will seam the hugest point. If the bottle is lower it will not assist in degassing the cooling system.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 29, 2016, 11:55:13 AM
wanted to post some pictures (Not the best).  The first photo below shows the engine before I installed the EFI throttle bodies, throttle linkage and "straightened up" the wiring.  As you can see, it kind of looked a little like rainbow spaghetti on the Passenger side:


(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/FD9974E0-210D-4C06-B482-1975934BAE0E_zpsuwtkxgrr.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/FD9974E0-210D-4C06-B482-1975934BAE0E_zpsuwtkxgrr.jpg.html)

The Photo below was taken this past weekend.  As you can see, the throttle bodies have been installed as well as the linkage.  The coolant system is all hooked up and has been filled as far as possible with the thermostat closed.  Its not in the photo, but the coolant reservoir was moved over to the Drivers side (which makes more sense since it feeds into the lower radiator hose).  As stated before, its about an inch to 1.5 inches higher up in the system now.  More importantly, you can see the mini buss bar on the passenger side shock tower as well as the fact that the EFI harness is now mostly in the car and not in the engine bay.  Its all hooked up already so the wiring is all set!

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/CEC773EB-F207-4CCD-A9E3-D506E4794126_zpsucpsrani.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/CEC773EB-F207-4CCD-A9E3-D506E4794126_zpsucpsrani.jpg.html)


Finally, I was really trying to get my iPhone down into the front grill to get a photo of the ancillary Pusher set up.  I was really impressed with the ease of installation.  As I may have stated before (probably a few times), its a Pusher Spal S-Blade fan.  Its 16" in diameter and will hopefully add 2000+ CFM's when the ECU kicks it on.  I installed it on the front of the radiator with a rubberized "skirt" from Spal (just so it would rattle and rub on the fins of the radiator....  plus gives a fraction of an inch of space between the fan blades and radiator.  Then, there are 4 metal brackets which attach to the Spal fan at its mounting points, and are screwed to the 4 corners of the radiator. The 2 metal "things" cutting across the photo is the power steering fluid cooling lines which bolt to the bottom of the radiator.  No interference at all with the fan.  I feel a lot more confident now with the whole cooling set up, so fingers crossed.

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/498C5287-1E84-4538-AE20-1F2905350560_zps04o14vbr.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/498C5287-1E84-4538-AE20-1F2905350560_zps04o14vbr.jpg.html)

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 05, 2016, 08:55:48 AM
Small update on what seems and feels like an obnoxious wait to turn the key.....

Ran the sender wire from the Oil pressure sender to the gauge (which is mounted in the dash above the radio (in an AC duct insert).  I then ran the ground wire from the back of the gauge to a grounding bolt located in the passenger side kick panel fuse box (there is a bolt and nut in there specifically used for grounding).  I went to run the 12V switched power, and realized I did not have enough wire.  But before running out to store, I wanted to install the other mini buss bar.  This mini bus bar will be used for all of the 12V switched powers I need.  I get 12V switched power from an unused fuse location in the kick panel.  I ran the Add a fuse to the mini buss bar and then proceeded to hook up all of the 12V switched power (that were already run).  I then ran up to the store and got another roll of red and black wire, but upon returning home (later that evening), I did not have enough "ring" connectors.  I wanted to cry.  Luckily when I was out, I picked up 8 qts of 10W30 motor oil (So not a total waste).  2 out of 3 things "ain't" bad. *** In re-reading the email from Jay after the engine was Dyno tested, he got the best results with 10 quarts of oil (so I will need a bit more).  He suggested 8 quarts with a 3 qt accusump system.  This will definitely be something I get installed, but for now, I think I will put 2 additional quarts in it just so I am safe from oil starvation while getting the tune on the ecu dialed in.***

Although I did not run the sender wires for the coolant temp or the oil temp, I wanted to get oil pressure hooked up first so I can verify oil pressure before start up.  The FAST ecu has coolant temp on the display, so my gauge is redundant (while the handheld is connected).  Last item to run is the 12V switched wire from the gauge to the kick panel, and I can start her up.

On a side note, when I pumped out the fuel that was in the tank, I pumped it right into my lawn tractor.  What was weird was that this weekend I mowed the yard, and I have never had the tractor run that well.  It always used to sputter at full throttle, but with the old 93 octane from the Saleen, I throttled up on the lawn mower and it ran perfectly!  Good sign.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 06, 2016, 01:57:15 PM
Ok  help needed!

Today was the day,  got the oil pressure gauge wired up.  Got the 10 qts of oil in, coolant topped off, all ecu wiring double checked, went over the starter to frame ground, the frame to engine and the engine to battery grounds... All tight.  Removed old gas and put in new 93 octane, removed the coil wire to turn the engine over until I get oil pressure on the gauge, turned the key,,,,, and nothing!  Reminds me of when I did not have a good ground on the starter on the first go around.  No click or anything.  The oil pressure gauge came to life, fuel pumps are working fine, MSD box light is on, but no starter......  Any thoughts????
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Tboggus on July 06, 2016, 03:53:16 PM
Remote starter solenoid? Check power there. If good, go to starter. Might need two folks. One to turn switch, one to check power.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 06, 2016, 04:15:04 PM
No remote solenoid on this one.  Its an MSD starter with the signal wire and power wire on the back.  This is a new starter that was working perfectly when I took it out.  Wired up exactly the same as the last time I had it running.  Not too sure on this one
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Tboggus on July 06, 2016, 04:17:52 PM
I would get under there and make sure you have full voltage to the power wire, first. Then, have someone turn the switch and see if you have power at the signal lead. But first, and this sounds simple. How about fuses? Neutral safety switch? Clutch switch?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on July 07, 2016, 09:43:37 AM
I'd start with a test light to the trigger wire on the starter, should light up when you turn the key.

If it does not light up, check any safety switches on the tranny and/or jumper wires you installed, or potentially fuses or circuit breakers. 

If it does light up, then the starter failed
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 08, 2016, 10:25:49 AM
Thanks Guys.  I will get under there with a volt meter and poke around.  What kills me is that this is a brand new MSD Starter.  After the last one melted, I purchased a brand new replacement.  It worked perfectly and started the car about 10 times or so before I pull the engine out and sent it off to Jay.  It looks mint still, all wires are good (not melted), and it is wired up exactly (only better since I sanded down a lot of the powder coat on the ground wires) as it was when it last ran.

I will start with the Signal wire and make sure I am getting a signal.  Honestly I hope its not getting a signal because then its probably the Starter Safety Switch on the Clutch pedal.  Stupid little delay unfortunately.  Ill keep you posted.  ** Update - The more I read online and the more I think about the first time I turned the key and nothing happened.......  the more I think its a Ground Issue.  I will run through this again and maybe I can job my own memory.  The Starter case is its own ground.  Since it bolts to the bell housing, its grounding to the engine(via the bell housing).  The first time I turned the key (last year), I got the exact same problem.  NO click of the solenoid, No drain of the battery, no nothing.  Dash lights, fuel pump, etc all keep going full steam.  Just no reaction from the starter at all.

This is when I made a little custom battery cable.  I sanded down a spot on the tubular K member and attached one side and then attached the other side to one of the bolts holding the Starter to the bell housing.  I also saw (at that time) that there was a ground wire that attaches to the motor mount.  I reattached that to a bolt on the new motor mount and got back into the car.  Starter worked fine.

Later, after discussions on the forum, It was noted that I was missing a ground strap that goes from the engine (cylinder head) to the firewall.  I found that braided strap and attached it to the engine to the drivers side shock tower.  Since the starter had already been working, I just hooked it up as it seems to be a backup.

This time, when I reattached everything, I attached the mini battery cable ground I made to the same places (K member- Starter bolt), I reattached the OEM ground connection to the motor mount bolt, and the last item (the braided cable that was supposed to attach to the cylinder head/ firewall), I found a better place to mount on the front passenger side.  It attached directly to a threaded hole in the block (behind the alternator) and then to a stud coming off of the fender well right across from it).  I don't think this is the issue, but its the only thing I did different.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 08, 2016, 07:53:45 PM
Ok good news with Bad  lol.  Started with the battery.  Volt meter showed 12.56 Volts.  Then I went under the car to testthe 12v constant and my grounding wire.  I still got 12.56 Volts.  So at this point I have a good battery, good voltage to the starter and my grounding cable is working.  Then I pulled the signal wire, put one tester lead in the end, and the other tester lead on my ground.  Had the wife push the clutch and turn the key.......Still got something like 12.3 volts. 

Then it occurred to me that the starter I installed.......... Wait for it.........  Was the burnt out one that I replaced!  Dern it!  The newer functioning starter was in a box on the shelf. 

So that was the good.  The bad is that I have to take the exhaust off again on the passenger side which sucks since the ceramic coating is so easily scratched.  Then try to torque the bolts on the replacement starter in such a tight space
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on July 08, 2016, 08:30:05 PM
Oops!   ;D ;D  At least you don't have to spend a bunch of money on new parts...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 08, 2016, 08:32:22 PM
Yes Sir!  And for that reason I'm still smiling  lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on July 08, 2016, 09:07:49 PM

Then it occurred to me that the starter I installed.......... Wait for it.........  Was the burnt out one that I replaced!  Dern it!  The newer functioning starter was in a box on the shelf. 


That's a pretty good one LOL, glad it worked out   ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: gdaddy01 on July 09, 2016, 11:36:25 AM
practice makes prefect
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Joe-JDC on July 09, 2016, 09:20:53 PM
Time for a magic marker in red with a big X on that bad starter and box!  That will solve the issue for the future.  Interesting build, thread, and combination.  Joe-JDC
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Drew Pojedinec on July 09, 2016, 09:50:41 PM
Time for a magic marker in red with a big X on that bad starter and box!  That will solve the issue for the future.  Interesting build, thread, and combination.  Joe-JDC


Heh... we've all done the "mistaken parts" game.
At work we have fun codes for these things.  I dunno if it's universal or not in industry.

On a non functioning part it gets the "NFG" label.  Drums or totes that no longer hold fluid are simply labelled "M T"
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 16, 2016, 04:12:44 PM
Ok guys.  Took the starter i thought was the new starter to auto zone so they could test it.  Guy hooks it up and hits the button.... 3 second count down on the machine and the a bright camera like flash.  Guy mumbles a little, abd then just hands me the starter saying it doesnt work.  Not sure what the flash was though.  So then im in the garage and it occurs to me.  The car had/has an alarm system.  When I had the car running montgs ago, it was working.  Now, the alarm is not working( i can tell from an LED light bar on the front pillar)  possibly a blown fuse, but would not even know where to look since its not a factory accessory.  Though now is that the alarm not working stops the car from starting???  When I turn the key, I just hear a click from behind the radio console.  Any thoughts?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on July 16, 2016, 04:50:57 PM
My stepson had something like that mounted in a
mercedes. And it wont start, they had sliced the alarm in
under the steering column so we just removed it and then
it worked like it should
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 16, 2016, 04:52:38 PM
inputConnect this wire to the (+) 12 volts ignition wire. This wire is pre-wired to the starter kill relay andmust show (+) 12 volts with the key in RUN position and during cranking. Take great care that thiswire cannot be shorted to the chassis at any point.

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/6410B5D7-F25D-49F6-8185-567033C85E11_zpsqbembppz.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/6410B5D7-F25D-49F6-8185-567033C85E11_zpsqbembppz.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 16, 2016, 04:55:24 PM
Thanks heo.  I posted above the alarm manuals info on a yellow wire I found detached under the dash by the dash on passanger side.  Seems per the directions to control the starter, but i can not find what it used to be attached to???????  CRAP
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 18, 2016, 09:23:53 AM
OK, here is where we are now.

1st...  obviously, the car will not crank.  Battery tested good with Volt meter.  All other accessories (aside from the alarm system) work!

2nd...  As above, the alarm does not work.  Unsure why, as the only item I disconnected from the original setup was the Amp previous owner put in trunk.

3rd...  Even with the Alarm not working, I crawled under the car and tested the Feed to the starter.  12V Constant is good, Ground is good, and most importantly, the signal wire to the starter shows 12+ volts when the key is turned and clutch pushed down.

This is where I am getting confused.  If I am getting a 12+Volt signal from the ignition when the key is turned, then the Alarm (Working or not) is obviously not blocking the signal.

The starter in the car is the one that was working when I pulled the engine out to sent to Jay.  The thought would be that it would still be in working order since it just sat in a box until this re-install.

Is there anyway to test this starter while its still installed?  Maybe cross the 12V constant to the signal terminal with a screwdriver?  Honestly guys, this is killing me now that this car is fully assembled and ready......  and I just cant get the starter to work  LOL

Any brainstorming at all would be awesome......  or anyone in the Jacksonville FL area?  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on July 18, 2016, 09:27:26 AM
You're not getting a click or anything when the key is turned?  I'm not familiar with the MSD starters; is it possible you are missing a jumper wire between two posts on the starter or something like that?  I assume that the solenoid is on the starter itself?

If you have 12V to the main lug, and 12V to the proper terminal of the solenoid when you turn the key, and you aren't getting any action at all, its got to be the starter.  It is not unheard of for a piece of electronic gear to go bad just sitting there...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 18, 2016, 11:15:23 AM
Thanks Jay.  Yes, When I turn the key, I get a click......  but not from the starter itself.  There is something behind the radio (behind the dash) that clicks once.  The starter itself does not make any noise at all.

My first thought is that there was a starter kills switch (relay) attached to the alarm system and since the alarm has been disabled (by accident apparently), maybe that was the issue?  But then when I tested the starter the other day, the alarm was still not working and I was getting the correct voltage to the constant and the signal wire.....

If it is the starter, this would be the 2nd MSD starter to go on me and I haven't even gotten the car running  LOL  I would be then purchasing my 3rd Starter to replace.  Yikes.

Before I do that, I am going to try and troubleshoot the Alarm system.  Maybe if I can restore power, it will somehow remedy my situation?  It is a fact that when the starter worked the last time, the alarm was in working order.  Just not sure how it would be stopping it if I am getting signal.

**Also, correct.  The MSD starter has the solenoid mounted on the starter.  There is a 12V constant, and a 12V signal wire, and the starter itself is the ground (so I have to grounded with a custom battery cable to the K member- which was my issue the first time around)

Thank you kindly  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on July 18, 2016, 11:35:56 AM
General info:

There has to be a battery cable hooked to the large post, and on that large post is generally a feed to the interior.

When you turn the key, the feed from the interior send 12V to a trigger wire, that in turn engages the solenoid, which engages the starter.  A solenoid (and starter) needs to be grounded for that to work. 

Sometimes, starters have a trigger wire and a "cold start" ignition wire, if you had those reversed, or on the wrong lug, it would not engage

But, if you have 12V to the trigger (usually labeled S) when turning the key AND you have a good ground, if the starter doesn't do anything, it's a bad starter (or solenoid if mounted on the starter)

Sometimes tightening either the trigger wire or the batt cable feed itself can break off a connection internally, especially if the nut holding the stud was loose when you did it.

FYI, I like test lights better than volt meters in this instance. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 18, 2016, 11:59:50 AM
Thanks Ross.  Ill go back over it again.  In regards to the Signal wire, the Starter only has 1 terminal for a signal wire and the car only supplies 1 wire for the signal.  It doesn't have a separate wire for signal and trigger.  I guess in the end, I can check the connections.  If that doesn't work, Starter and work backwards from there.  Was just trying to avoid that as with this car, its not easy to get to that starter and I am forever worried about scratching up that nice ceramic coating on the headers.  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on July 18, 2016, 12:08:51 PM
What volt meter do you have? Meters for electronics
sometimes is to sensitiv so they show 12 v but there is
not enough amps to engage a starter or light a bulb
 try with a screwdriver on the starter if
it works
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on July 18, 2016, 12:22:24 PM
What volt meter do you have? Meters for electronics
sometimes is to sensitiv so they show 12 v but there is
not enough amps to engage a starter or light a bulb
 try with a screwdriver on the starter if
it works

Heo did give you the answer from the opposite direction.  Probably better that way too

Cross the start terminal and the battery cable and see if it cranks, either by using a screwdriver, or a starter button.  If it cranks, then you know it's car problem, if it doesn't then it's a starter problem

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on July 18, 2016, 07:02:35 PM
+1 on the above.  Put a jumper cable directly from the battery + to the starter signal post (carefully - No shorts to the chassis!!)  That will tell you for sure if the starter is good, assuming your ground is good.

If the starter turns the engine, then you have to start troubleshooting the car wiring:

12V on a voltmeter does not necessarily equal 12V with a load.  You might try reading the voltage on that signal post when somebody is turning the key.  If it drops then there's a problem and the real fun begins.   Let us know what happens!

- Bill
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on July 18, 2016, 08:52:39 PM
+2 on the 12 volt reading. It's called Ghost Voltage, and it can fool you into thinking it's ok. It needs to be checked under a load. A bulb, like Heo suggested, may tell you, but it would be better to try it while hitting the switch. And of course make SURE there is no possible way for the car to move while doing that check!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 19, 2016, 06:40:02 AM
Thanks Guys.  I will give these ideas a try and see what happens.  I will also try these suggestions with the ground "configured" a different way.  I will let you know how it goes.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 19, 2016, 09:12:14 AM
Sitting at work and thinking about the above posts... and the Volt meter.... and the "Stupid" wiring....

I remembered when I used the volt meter, I tested the Signal wire (which showed 12+ volts only when my wife pushed in the clutch and tried to start the car).....  I touched the 12V constant terminal and grounded it (with the other lead) to the ground wire bolted to the bell housing where I have my cable grounded..... and it showed almost the same voltage as just testing the battery by itself.....   Its occurring to me....  The grounding cable (on the back of the bell housing) where I attached my cable....  would show a good ground because it is grounded to the K member.....  But that doesn't necessarily mean that the starter is grounded right?????

I went back and tried to find the page(s) in the Forum posts when I first had an issue with the starter ....  the first time I tried turning the key.  I wasn't able to find anything I posted about how I specifically grounded the starter (the cable I made), but then it came to me.  I may have bolted the starter down with the cable touching the starter....  right now, the bolt goes through the starter and goes through the bell housing and come out the back of the bell housing about an inch.....  I then put the grounding cable on that 1 inch stick out, and then tightened it down with another nut.  There is powder coating between the grounding strap and the bell housing, but I had thought this is the way I had gotten it working before.   I may have to move the grounding strap to under the bolt head so its in contact with the starter casing.......  hopefully this is it.....

***Found it.  Pg 39 of this post:

"What I will say (and it really hit my confidence HARD)....  I went for it and turned the key with the coil plug off to hear the engine turn over.  When I turned the key, nothing.  One click......  and then when I turned the key back off, just another One Click."

And this is exactly what is happening right now.  I am going to crawl under there and change the ground location to under the head of the bolt (actually in contact with the starter case). 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on July 19, 2016, 01:04:27 PM
I forgot to mention when troubleshooting a wiring harness...  You may need to order some of this:

(https://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/img/723/723b1438e3052af4cf39d2fd4328732b_m.jpg)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Tboggus on July 19, 2016, 06:06:06 PM
I forgot to mention when troubleshooting a wiring harness...  You may need to order some of this:

(https://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/img/723/723b1438e3052af4cf39d2fd4328732b_m.jpg)

LOL! Been a long time since I've seen any of that, especially Lucas, Prince of Darkness brand.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 19, 2016, 10:18:27 PM
Tested the ground again tonight.  Used a volt meter ( not ideal, i know ) but I get 12.19 volts steady using the starter casing itself for the ground lead and the 12V constant lead as the power.  I am thinking that because it shows 12.19 volts steady using the starter itself for the ground, that its properly grounded?  I got it back up in the air on Jackstands last night and will try and Jump the signal terminal on the starter with a screw driver tonight.  I want to try all possible ways to test before I remove because its a HUGE pain to remove.  Is there another way to test the ground connection ( other than how I explained above?  My thought is if I jump it with a screw driver and it doesnt kick on, it doesnt mean its bad.... Could still be a bad ground.....
Thoughts?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: mike7570 on July 20, 2016, 12:14:09 AM
Tested the ground again tonight.  Used a volt meter ( not ideal, i know

AND...?    You left us hanging, must have been dinner time.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 20, 2016, 08:06:58 AM
Sorry, wifi went down while typing last night  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on July 20, 2016, 10:56:00 AM
Tested the ground again tonight.  Used a volt meter ( not ideal, i know ) but I get 12.19 volts steady using the starter casing itself for the ground lead and the 12V constant lead as the power.  I am thinking that because it shows 12.19 volts steady using the starter itself for the ground, that its properly grounded?  I got it back up in the air on Jackstands last night and will try and Jump the signal terminal on the starter with a screw driver tonight.  I want to try all possible ways to test before I remove because its a HUGE pain to remove.  Is there another way to test the ground connection ( other than how I explained above?  My thought is if I jump it with a screw driver and it doesnt kick on, it doesnt mean its bad.... Could still be a bad ground.....
Thoughts?

Jump the terminals first, the volt meter won't tell you if any connection can handle the amperage required positive or negative.  Troubleshoot the next step after you have info

All you need to do is lay a screwdriver from the battery cable at the starter to the trigger post on the starter to bridge those two, it'll either crank or it wont, don't overthink it.

If you can't fit a screwdriver, use a remote starter button or just a wire. 

You are correct though,  if it DOESNT go, take a set of jumper cables and connect one clamp to the starter and the other to a good ground and try the screwdriver again. At that point, you will prove whether it is a ground issue. 

I really doubt that it is though, the starter doesn't need it's own ground, it's bolted to the block plate and if the neg cable is bolted to the block, that should be a good ground

BTW I challenge you to please do this before it hits 100 pages :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 20, 2016, 01:14:24 PM
Thanks Ross.  I was hoping to be done somewhere around 30 pages  LOL  Long overdue
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 20, 2016, 05:39:09 PM
Ok jumped the 2 terminals on the starter with a screwdriver..... And the starter works and sounds strong!   So now what?  Lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: mike7570 on July 20, 2016, 06:52:34 PM
keep working back up the from the starter. Your not getting 12v signal to the starter.
Might be easy, neutral safety, clutch engage etc. (you could bypass with a temporary wire from ignition switch)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 20, 2016, 07:20:50 PM
Really weird, but when I tested the signal wire with volt meter ( and wife trying to start car) it was showing 12 volts. Whn she let go of the clutch and key, it went back to almost 0.  How is that even possible?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jmlay on July 20, 2016, 07:41:09 PM
Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying the post should be 0Vdc with the clutch not depressed an the key in the off or run position.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 20, 2016, 08:07:01 PM
Im prob not making sense at this point  LOL.  What I was trying to say is that when tested, i thought I was getting 12 volts to the starter signal wire when clutch was pressed in and key was turned.

On a side note, i went back out tothe garage to do a few tests.

Started withthe starter safety switch on the clutch pedal.  Online, it says test this with Ohms.  I disconnected it from the plug, and tested.  You get 00.00 when you press the plunger on the switch in, and when you let it go, you get "OL".  So switch works.  Then on to testing the other end of the pigtail that has 2 power wires..... NaDa!  No voltage at all!  Found the issue!  So then my thoughts went to the yellow wire dangling under the passanger side foot area.  It tests 12.12v constant power.  My guess is that yellow wire feeds the starter safety switch, but I still can not find where it disconnected from.  Also, its running from drivers side toward passanger side, so its not as though ( so coming from under the steering column.  There are a few other wires bundled with it, and they are running behind the kick panel fuse box on passanger side
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 21, 2016, 09:24:22 AM
OK called a "Clifford Matrix 1" Alarm installation specialist.  Explained what was happening, and he was a bit confused as to why the yellow wire that runs from the ignition under the dash over to the kick panel on the passenger side would be showing 12.12 V.  He thought if anything, Power would be coming from that area, not going to it.  He suggested pulling the brain of the alarm out of the car (which should put the ignition wires back to normal).  I wasn't sure the alarm is even getting power because the LED's are not blinking.  I told him I am turning the key and I head clicking under the steering column and also behind the radio.  He said it sounded like the starter kill relays are getting signal (power) so he suggested I pull the brain.

I also got a wire diagram for a 2005 Mustang GT from the internet.  The kick panel fuse box that the yellow wire is hanging in front of has a fuse (F-21) which is the starter relay fuse....  from that fuse, it goes to the Bussed electrical center (under the hood on passenger wheel well) to a starter relay, and then to the signal wire terminal on the starter.

I am going to start by the obvious checking of the fuse in the kick panel (10A fuse on slot F21).  if that's good, I will try and figure out how to test the relay in the bussed electrical box under the hood.  Obviously it still bothers me that there is a loose wire hanging that has constant voltage running to it......  but as stated previously by you all,  we have to start somewhere and find the "bug"
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 21, 2016, 12:35:33 PM
OK, still at work but had to post this (and I really hope it is not this simple....... wait, yes I do).  Since this is a newer car (2005), it has the lovely OEM security system (in addition to an aftermarket Clifford Alarm).  This can be found when you have a little blinking indicator light on the dash near the speedometer which looks like a red car with a red padlock overlay.  I have this on the Saleen.  When I get in the car (door open or shut), the security light still blinks.  This built in "device" stops the car from being started.  When you use the cars key, it is supposed to know to de-active, but it says that sometimes the cars computer gets confused (?).  They suggest exiting the vehicle and lock all of the doors with the windows rolled up.  Then wait 2 minutes...  next unlock just the drivers side door with the key which should reset the system..... then try restarting the engine...

I am going to weep all unmanly like if this is the issue.... fingers crossed (Which I think should have been the original name of this forum post)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on July 21, 2016, 12:55:34 PM
Hope it works. Also why many rip out mucho OEM wiring and misc. non-essential systems when building a real runner. KISS principle in action.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on July 21, 2016, 02:34:14 PM
OK, still at work but had to post this (and I really hope it is not this simple....... wait, yes I do).  Since this is a newer car (2005), it has the lovely OEM security system (in addition to an aftermarket Clifford Alarm).  This can be found when you have a little blinking indicator light on the dash near the speedometer which looks like a red car with a red padlock overlay.  I have this on the Saleen.  When I get in the car (door open or shut), the security light still blinks.  This built in "device" stops the car from being started.  When you use the cars key, it is supposed to know to de-active, but it says that sometimes the cars computer gets confused (?).  They suggest exiting the vehicle and lock all of the doors with the windows rolled up.  Then wait 2 minutes...  next unlock just the drivers side door with the key which should reset the system..... then try restarting the engine...

I am going to weep all unmanly like if this is the issue.... fingers crossed (Which I think should have been the original name of this forum post)

My 2005 F-150 had a system like that.  After I gave it to my daughter, she locked it one day with the key fob, then opened it the next day with the key.  Wouldn't start.  She finally figured out that she had to unlock it with the key fob before the truck would start again.

Later, when she left the dome light on and drained the battery ( ::)), we had the same issue after it was charged back up again.  Had to lock and unlock the doors before it would start.

Wouldn't surprise me if something like that is your issue...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 21, 2016, 02:54:21 PM
Thanks Jay.  The car has a chip in the key (from what I read), but it doesn't have a fob (that I know of). I am so dying to know if this is my issue.

Also, I realized that I tested the wires that plug into the Starter safety switch  (as well as testing the switch).  After reading a few more things, I realized that the wires wont show any voltage until you turn the key.  I was testing the wires no key in the ignition.  I was finding it very difficult to holt the volt meter leads on the blades of the pig tail.  It would have been impossible to do by myself while turning the key.  I am going to try the passive theft system reset thing.  If that doesn't work, I am going to retest the starter switch wires on the clutch pedal again while the wife turns the key.

Thanks again  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 21, 2016, 08:37:05 PM
Ok.  Downloaded the cars manual.  In the manual, it describes the different states of the OEM passive alarm.  Each is dictated by how the car/lock dash light behaves.  Started with #1 in the manual.... Put key in the ignition and turn to the "on" location.  The car/lock symbol on the dash should stay solid for 3 seconds and the shut off if working properly....  And when I did this, it is indeed working properly.  So no need to trouble shoot further.  Next I went on to the clifford car alarm.  Still not working, so i tried screwing around with the key fob for it for a while, changing the battery, etc....  Nothing.  Then I remembered I had a back up remote fob in the house.  Got it out, put in a fresh battery, and hit the lock and then unlock buttons.... Voila, alarm system sprang to life!  Led on dash now working, car locks and unlocks with the fob, but still no start.

Wanted to try one more thing...  Got in the car and pressed in the clutch, tried to start and got the usual.  A click of some relays, but no dimming of any lights and no start.  Then I wanted to try starting it without pressing in the clutch.... And the same.  No dimming, relays click and no start.

Also checked the fuse in the kick panel fuse box ( f21 starter relay -10 amp fuse) and its not blown.  I believe it then leads to the bussed electrical center under the hood where there is a relay for the starter.  Not sure how to check if its bad, but i pulled it out, all 4 tabs on tye bottom look fine and it doesnt smell burnt.

Lastly, I pulled the clutch starter switch and using the volt meter, tried to see what happened when I turned the key or tried to start.  In the on position, it registered a little, but no where near 12 volts.  Then still holding the volt meter to the pigtail, I had my wife turn the key like she was trying to start the car.  It jumped all over the place and registered "OL" a few times.  I am not really 100% sure what I am looking for on this one.  Something happens when I turn the key, so is this "Signal"?  I have been trying to figure out how the system works in general since I am 100% sure the battery is good (TESTED) and I am 100% sure the starter works (TESTED). 

So where we are at now is....

Battery good
Starter good
Smart junction box in the kick panel- Starter relay fuse is good (not blown)
Some sort of action happening when I turn the key in the wires that feed the Clutch starter switch (Although I am not sure exactly what to look for when testing it)

Outstanding issues...

There is a relay (not the ones I hear clicking in the cabin of the car) in the bussed electrical center fuse box under the hood....  How do I test the starter relay?
What feeds what in the car?  Where does this signal that goes through the pigtail on the clutch starter switch come from?  I am not really clear on the flow.  would make sense to start where I know something works and work my way backwards in the system, but not sure what the trail backwards looks like.
I tested the clutch starter switch with it disconnected the other day and get "OL" when testing for ohms with the switch NOT depressed and 00.00 Volts when it is plunged in.  As per online, this appears good, but I could be wrong?

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 22, 2016, 08:41:07 AM
Ok made this based off of research on a ford manual and tech forum.  Not bad right?  LOL

 (http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/Starter%20Circuit%20diagram_zpsh6hx1a2r.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/Starter%20Circuit%20diagram_zpsh6hx1a2r.jpg.html)

So a little easier to plan an "attack" on this system when you can visualize the flow.  Again, Battery is good and Starter is good.  I pulled the fuse in the SJB (Smart Junction box) and it is not blown.  Seeing this diagram now, I think I want to pull the fuse and test both sides of that circuit with the volt meter.  It looks like it will only receive voltage when the key is turned to the "Start" position.  This will be my next step (Not to be nerdy, but I even numbered the steps on the diagram  LOL).

Assuming Voltage shows on the meter when I turn the key, I can pop the fuse back in and know that we are good up to that point.  From there, I want to make sure that the voltage from the SJB is making it to the clutch pedal switch (Step 2).  In thinking about it, when I stuck the leads into the pigtail to test it and turned the key, it wasn't completing the circuit right?  Since the wire leading out of the clutch pedal switch goes to the relay, the volt meter was getting voltage in from the SJB, but did not have a complete ground (since the relay didn't close?)  I am not sure if using a volt meter would have the same physical properties as using a jumper wire?  Would the volt meter just read what's there? or would it complete the circuit (like a jumper wire?)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on July 22, 2016, 08:56:48 AM
Fantastic that they could solve all this  in the old
days with just a wire and an ignition key ::) ::)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on July 22, 2016, 09:15:50 AM
If you put the meter in series it will compete the circuit.
But once the circuit is complete the meter will read zero
if the actual function took place.

A way to see if a relay is working is use a stethoscope, the auto type with the long probe.
You can hear it click when the function is happening.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 22, 2016, 09:19:09 AM
When I used the volt meter on the pigtail that connects to the clutch pedal switch, it just goes haywire when the key is turned to Start.  It doesn't just go to 12V and stay there.... 

Does this point toward a bad relay?  if the relay doesn't work, the circuit wont complete right?  In theory, with the volt meter probes in the pigtail and the key turned to start, we should get a steady 12V right?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on July 22, 2016, 09:42:38 AM
Fantastic that they could solve all this  in the old
days with just a wire and an ignition key ::) ::)

Or a crank handle.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 22, 2016, 09:45:05 AM
Or flintstones style
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 22, 2016, 09:59:27 AM
Found another diagram (just so I know) and the Ignition feed from the BEC to the Keyed Ignition switch has a fuse in the BEC.  Its Position F4 (Actually right next to the Starter relay ).  I think I have a complete understanding of the complete circuit at this point.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on July 22, 2016, 10:39:10 AM
That Clifford aftermarket alarm is not helping anything either.  Years ago when I bought my Ranger new, it had factory anti-theft.  Of course the dealer added an aftermarket alarm on top of that (which I told them to remove and deduct the price from the contract).  Of course they didn't remove it, but that's another story...

The aftermarket alarm did not play well at all with the factory system.  About once every ten start attempts, despite the factory key fob doing its job, the Code Alarm would disable the truck and the siren would go off.  Then I'd have to manually reset the aftermarket module and it would be OK - for awhile.  Two different systems trying to keep your car from starting does not a happy car make!! 

If it was me I'd take the Clifford system out of the equation. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on July 22, 2016, 11:22:40 AM
I agree with Will.

Also, even after this is done, go buy a decent test light :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 22, 2016, 12:32:11 PM
As a side note.  I have scoured all of the wiring diagrams for this car.  The yellow wire hanging beneath the passenger dash is not an OEM wire to any of the harnesses.  Its possibly the Aftermarket alarm or the aftermarket stereo (neither are items I installed).  That wire is bothering me less at this point.

Let me please also apologize for my blatant stupidity in electrical.  After thinking about my little diagram above, I realized most of that is Power (if not all) and not ground.  Then I was thinking about how I was using the volt meter....  Take for instance the pigtail after removing the clutch safety switch.  the pig tail has 2 wires.  Power coming in and power going out (after you press the plunger on the switch).  I was putting one lead on one side and one lead on another side.  But really I should have just used the red probe (+) and with the black probe, grounded it to the chassis?  With the switch disconnected, I should get 12V while trying to start and nothing when I am not trying to start (on one side)  and nothing at all on the other side when tested separate since that is power out.... so even during cranking, the circuit is not complete and no voltage is present.

On the switch itself, since I was testing Ohms, I was doing it correctly...  one lead on one side of the switch and one lead on the other side.....  testing for Ohms.

Let me add that one (sadly) to my hot rod resume!  Sorry Guys....  should make a little more sense now when I test these issues and post results.

The same should go for when I test the fuse at the fuse panel.  the SJB in the kick panel should only be getting power when the key is in the start position.  with the red probe on one side and the black probe grounded to the frame, I should get 12V during cranking but nothing during all other positions of the key (or without the key). 

I think the trick here (and has always been for me) to learn how to do something, sometimes through trial and error....  while breaking as few things as possible to keep costs reasonable  HAHAHAHA
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Leny Mason on July 23, 2016, 09:02:46 AM
Is there a chance you have the wiring harness bolted between the engine and the bell housing  causing a brake in the wiring to the starter I have seen it many times and even started it on fire it was an S10 blazer, just a thought. Leny Mason
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 23, 2016, 10:14:37 AM
Hi lenny.  I dont believe so.  There is room there so I can see ariund it pretty well
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 23, 2016, 10:20:30 AM
Ok guys.  Tell me what this means.  With volt meter on DC, I get 12.2 volts at the battery ( a little lower than 12.4 when I started testing all around a few weeks ago.

Now, step 1 is the fuse at the SJB kick panel.  It gets power with the key in the Start position.  Testing with volt meter, I get 11.39 volts trying to start the car.  Repeated 3 times and all 3 identical results.  Then on to the Starter safety clutch switch.  Also 11.39 volts with key in start position and nothing on the other lead ( which would be normal since its a switch.  11.39 isn't 12 volts   .... Is my Optima red top $200.00 battery bad???  Lol  enough juice to make relays click but not enough to activate the starter?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on July 23, 2016, 10:33:28 AM
Volt meter baloney, shiny objects.....ARRRRRGH   :)

The starter will do something with 11 volts, may not crank, but it would react.  If you are concerned, hook a set of jumper cables to it, that will tll you immediately, the car should start.  Batteries do go dead, doesn't really mean they are junk.

If you unhook the small lead to the solenoid, and your wife turns the key to start with the clutch in, does it have power to it?  We know the starter is good, so my guess is no

So, if  not, work towards the key.

If you have power to the clutch switch, step on it and see if you have power out. If you do, follow the wire further on down. If you don't replace the switch



Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 23, 2016, 11:07:22 AM
Jumped the starter with a screw driver.  The starter works for sure.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on July 23, 2016, 11:13:01 AM
Let me tell you a story about Volt meters or a digital multimeter
My Galaxie  before i owned it had no brake lights. They spent a
whole day chasing some mysterious fault in the electrical system
12.something reading in the brakelight socket with a shiny new
super duper multimeter from the electronics company a friend
works at. New bulbs, still no brakelights.I asked if the had tested
the bulbs, Noo they are new,  I tested one on the battery nothing
wrong with the bulbs then i tested the socket with a test bulb,nothing
they showed me 12.something with the multimeter
I pulled the cables from the brakelight switch and cleaned them. Voila
brake lights The multimeter was to sensitive made for measuring microamps
the bad connection let through enough to trigger the multimeter but
not enough to light up the bulbs
 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Cyclone03 on July 23, 2016, 11:21:56 AM
sorry for just jumping in,whats up,car wont start with key? unplug the clutch switch and put a jumper in the car side connector try that. If that doesnt work its not the switch. Does the harness use a neutral safety too? If it's not hooked up the results are the same,no crank. Find that connector and jump it too.
If I read correctly you have some kind of alarm system,find the box,then remove every wire attached to it and restore the car wiring harness to original. I dont care whos system it is they are all crap and unserviceable if something goes wrong inside,just chuck it all.

My Optima cranked and started my FI 433ci FE with just 9v on the gauge at key on,dropped to 6v while cranking.   
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on July 23, 2016, 11:22:46 AM
Jumped the starter with a screw driver.  The starter works for sure.

OK, so the battery is good enough.  You could jump to make sure, but the starter pulls a lot more power than the relays.

So IMHO, it really is test light and wife time.  Start with the wire to the starter, have your wife step on the clutch and turn the key, it lights up brightly or doesn't.  It likely won't, so you work back in the wiring diagram, each point having your wife do the same thing.

Sometimes, you may find that a wire is broken or crushed somewhere as you test one area but the next doesn't make sense. As Heo said, it may be sensitive enough to show voltage, but a standard bulb would be dim or not light.

In the end, if it worked before you sent the motor off to Jay, either you damaged a wire, left something unhooked, or something failed (like a relay or the aftermarket alarm)  all of them are viable, but as much as everyone wants to help, 12.2 to 11.4 really doesn't say much, you eventually have to know the circuit, then just follow it back until you find the cause.

BTW, I would lose that alarm if it is easy to bypass.  If you have a chipped keyset it'll keep the crappy thieves away, and the good ones will cut the battery cable and stuff it in a trailer anyway.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Cyclone03 on July 23, 2016, 11:24:35 AM
Let me tell you a story about Volt meters or a digital multimeter
My Galaxie  before i owned it had no brake lights. They spent a
whole day chasing some mysterious fault in the electrical system
12.something reading in the brakelight socket with a shiny new
super duper multimeter from the electronics company a friend
works at. New bulbs, still no brakelights.I asked if the had tested
the bulbs, Noo they are new,  I tested one on the battery nothing
wrong with the bulbs then i tested the socket with a test bulb,nothing
they showed me 12.something with the multimeter
I pulled the cables from the brakelight switch and cleaned them. Voila
brake lights The multimeter was to sensitive made for measuring microamps
the bad connection let through enough to trigger the multimeter but
not enough to light up the bulbs

I chased a slow battery draining issue for weeks,it was the master cylinder mounted brake light switch on a 64 Gal.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 23, 2016, 11:57:11 AM
Picking up a test light today.

So good battery, good starter, good ignition switch, good at the SJB fuse, good at the pigtal to starter safety switch, tested clutch switch for ohms but a jumper wire will be a better test.  Will post back after I get the test light and test the starter signal wire under the car again.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on July 23, 2016, 07:08:14 PM
One more quick test if you suspect the relay. Swap the relay with another of the like and try again. If it works, you found your problem, if not, you probably have a wiring issue. Just because the relay clicks, doesn't mean it is fine. I have seen my fair share of high resistances through the high current side of the relay itself. Good luck!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 23, 2016, 07:38:47 PM
Thanks Jared.  I had forgot to mention that I tried that already. No luck.  The old one clicks, and I swapped it for the relay next to it ( i think is the High speed fan) and it clicked too.  But did not start.  Thank you for the suggestion though. 

I picked up a tester light today from Auto Zone.  I will go out there tomorrow and start with the signal wire to the starter..... And work my way backwards 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 24, 2016, 12:55:15 PM
Ok gentlemen.  Got under there today with the tester light.  First stop was under the car to test the signal wire.  Test light says..... NO SIGNAL.  Just as you all were saying, voltmeter registers ( im guessing something like millivolrs) but in reality nothing.  So from there, i tested the pigtail wiring at the clutch starter safety switch.  Pulled off the actual switch, and with the key in the start position, test light comes on.  Then tested other wire on the pigtail in start position and nothing.  This is correct because its a switch and one side should be power in and the other power out.  So either switch is bad or the relay.  I will try a jumper wire to bypass switch and narrow it down to the culprit.  Thanks again guys
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 24, 2016, 01:23:34 PM
Ok.  Made a jumper wire for the pigtail.  Inserted it and turned the key.... Nothing.  Then swapped out the relay again in the bussed electrical center again ( last stop before signal to starter) and nothing.  Definately a problem between power into clutch safety switch and the starter.  Jumper wire did not work and jumper with a different relay did not work.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on July 24, 2016, 01:54:08 PM
Do you have signal in to the relay? do you have signal after the relay?
Test! don't just listen to the relay clicking if you have signal after the relay
its something with the wire from relay to starter bad connections.maybe when
you pulled the engine the wire hooked to something and almost tore a
pigtail of
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 24, 2016, 02:08:03 PM
The relay is in a pretty hefty 2 level fuse box/ electric panel.  How whould I go about testing?  The wire that comes out of the relay ( bussed panel) goes to the solenoid on the starter and there is no signal there.  I just got finished testing the clutch switch ( ; times in a row) and the switch is good for sure.  Would like to know how to test power into and out of a relay.  Any thoughts?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on July 24, 2016, 02:37:58 PM
If you are testing the relay circuit, and you hear the relay click, you want to look for terminal 30 and 87 of the relay. Terminals 85 and 86 are always the low current coil side and you know that is working if it clicked. It should be marked on the side or usually the bottom of the relay.  Check for power at one of these terminals in the SJB with relay removed of course. If terminal 30 or 87(depending) have power, try running a jumper wire or paper clip between these two to bypass the relay. If it works, you have a bad relay. If not, you either have high resistance in the circuit exiting the relay or an open circuit(broken wire).

If it is possible, it would help a bunch if you could attach a wiring diagram to help others here diagnose with you.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on July 24, 2016, 03:42:47 PM
+ what he said. And the testlights often have a sharp needle that you can
push through the insulation on the wire to test. If you jump the relay and
still have no signal att the starter trye to penetrate the wire a couple of
inches away from the starter to see if you have signal there
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 24, 2016, 04:33:12 PM
30 has power at all times.  Put testlight in each of the other pin holes one at a time while clutch depressed and key in the start position and no other pin location has power.  30 has constant power though

Wire diagram for starter and ignition on previous page.  Ill look for a diagram of the relay now
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 24, 2016, 04:41:04 PM
Also, there is a note on my diagram that the starter relay is supplied ground from the PCM.  If that assists anyone.


(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/59739564-2544-4D60-896D-AAC404B181A7_zpsty6lze3k.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/59739564-2544-4D60-896D-AAC404B181A7_zpsty6lze3k.jpg.html)


(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/E52FD00F-3697-401B-BD2E-9A083065F45F_zpsluugwx5l.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/E52FD00F-3697-401B-BD2E-9A083065F45F_zpsluugwx5l.jpg.html)


(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/Starter%20Circuit%20diagram_zpsh6hx1a2r.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/Starter%20Circuit%20diagram_zpsh6hx1a2r.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on July 24, 2016, 05:46:31 PM
I can see why it won't start now if 30 is the only one being powered. It may have been another relay you heard clicking but it couldn't have been this one. At any rate, you should be able to jump 30 and 87 and see if it cranks and the circuit is working. You will have to find out why terminal 85 or 86 doesn't have power supply. That sounds like you're problem. You may want to check fuses first and see if one is blown for the starting circuit. It may be that simple. Something could've gotten shorted by accident at some point. If it is not the fuse, you will have to back track. Hope this helps.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 24, 2016, 06:09:00 PM
There are no fuses between the starter clutch switch and the relay....  It does appear ( possibly) to go through the OEM PCM?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: 68fecyclone on July 24, 2016, 06:38:18 PM
Hi Jason, is their a backup light switch and or neutral safety switch on the trans that did not get hooked up?  Also is every thing else engine related that is electric working. If you actually turned on the key and jumped the starter solenoid would it start and run. Rob
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on July 24, 2016, 06:44:23 PM
As you you see on the relay 30 is the feed. When you turn the key
you send a signal to 85 or 86 and activate the coil.It pulls the breaker
 points and send
current from 30 to 87 like Nightmist said the problem is you have
no signal to 85 or 86 when you turn the key......I don't think you
 need that relay...you have a starter with a solenoid right? The solenoid
is a big MF relay But what do i know....Don't like those new
 fangled relays and electronics ::)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 24, 2016, 06:58:45 PM
Hey Rob.  No neutral switch on the trans.  I tried jumping the starter with a screwdriver, and it functioned normally, turned the engine over just fine.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 24, 2016, 07:03:10 PM
Hey Heo.  I would love to bypass it at this point.  I have a feeling that from the starter clutch switch, it runs to the PCM.... Then to the relay in the bussed electrical center, and then to starter solenoid.  I am not 100% sure on this, but I would really love to bypass somehow  lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: 68fecyclone on July 24, 2016, 07:14:10 PM
Hey Jason, I get that it will crank over, but have you actually tried to start it by jumping the solenoid. You might get it started or discover that you have some other electrical issues going on. You could just run a wire from the clutch switch to the starter and bypass every thing else to see if it will start. Just some thoughts to look at. Rob
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on July 24, 2016, 07:17:30 PM
Perhaps on the stock FI you send some signal
to the Fuelpump, injection,whatever...with the
starter relay.....As i see it you should be able
to bypass everything between ignition and
starter. As long as the gauge on the wire is
right if you don't use the stock FI system
But there is people in here that i assume know
that better than me. So don't take my word for it
Try to bypass the relay with a temporary wire
from clutch switch (you had signal there with turned key?)
 to starter and see whats happen
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 24, 2016, 07:30:37 PM
Hey Heo.  Yes, everything works up to the clutch starter switch.  Also, the switch tested fine too.  Just need that signal to make it to the relay ( dont know where the wires go after leaving the switch on the clutch pedal.  I wish they went straight to the relay, but they dont seem to
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on July 24, 2016, 07:46:41 PM
How do you controll the new fuelpump?and injectors?
if its a separate system. I would at least temporary
trye with a wire from clutch switch to starter if it starts and
run i would skip the relay.....i cant see why you would
need that relay for just the starter. What gauge is the
wire on the starter versus gauge at the clutch switch
mayby the ignition switch cant handle the current.....
But it cant be that high its just for the signal to the
solenoid....
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 24, 2016, 07:50:30 PM
Fuel pump is tied into the cars original wiring.  Fuel inj is a FAST system on a seperate ECU. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on July 24, 2016, 07:55:31 PM
Does the fuelpump start when you turn key
to run, Without engaging the starter?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 24, 2016, 08:05:19 PM
Yes  runs constantly 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on July 24, 2016, 08:20:48 PM
Wait a minute ...My parents bought a used  500 SEC
with an aftermarket Alarm.One day my father called
me and said it wont start and cursed about electronics
I went there it would not crank no signal to the solenoid
no signal to the  coil as i was checking things i saw he
had something in his hand.Whats that? I don't know
i found it in the center consol, And i pressed this button
but nothing happens ??? ???
Its for the Alarm ::) ::) ::) Ohhh but nothing happened?
Except the car  wont start? ::) ::) Ohhh i don't thought about
that.... I had to Goggle the Alarm and See how it was installed
to know how to remowe it to get the car to start

same with my stepsons Alarm but there was the siren activated ;D ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 25, 2016, 08:59:06 AM
I was looking for a rundown of how to trouble shoot the ignition and found a nice article (workbook).  in following it, I get to the area in which I am having issues.  I am getting to signal to the relay, but have signal (voltage) at the CPP (Clutch pedal Position) switch.  It then says to use the Ohms setting on the Multi-meter to test for continuity between the relay pin location 86 ( which I think should be receiving the signal from the CPP and the actual wire at the CPP (drivers side floor on the clutch pedal) which should feed the relay.

This I think is useful because it seems that there is nothing (ECU/ PCM or otherwise) between the wire on the clutch and the relay......

But also is an issue as the leads on the multimeter would have to be about 10 feet long for me to put one lead on the CPP and the other in the relay pin location.  LOL

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Tboggus on July 25, 2016, 12:41:54 PM
Jason, I have had to extend my leads before. I have some super long ones I would lend you.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 25, 2016, 12:43:11 PM
Thanks for the offer.  I am going to see if I can pick up a pair of my own  :0)  Might as well have them seeing how much wiring is in this car  LOL  Thanks again
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 25, 2016, 01:16:45 PM
OK, did some more super sleuthing.  So its not really straight forward.  Its actually kind of ridiculous and I miss my 68 Fastback at this point.  What did that thing have like 3 wires?  LOL

OK.  So I found out that after the Clutch starter switch, the signal goes through the Powertrain control module (sort of another little computer).  The PCM is actually in the engine bay attached to the Bussed Electrical Center.  IN addition, the PCM actually receives a signal from the Passive anti-theft transceiver (telling it that the correct chipped key is being used).  This them lets the PCM power up the relay in the Bussed Electrical center and sends the signal to the starter solenoid.

So not a straight shot from the clutch starter switch to the relay as previously thought.   I can say that when I use the key to try and start the car, the passive anti-theft light functions normally.... So I am thinking that its ok with the chip (Otherwise it would go into lock down and blink repeatedly after trying to start).  So either wire is bad on its way to PCM (which I doubt as I did not hit anything during installation and all of these wires are in a 2" bundle harness ......  or PCM issue?  LOL

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/ddfd8894-4e61-405b-9874-b1c6d638ff18_zpspfymvdmy.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/ddfd8894-4e61-405b-9874-b1c6d638ff18_zpspfymvdmy.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on July 25, 2016, 05:17:40 PM
You have there from  PCM to relay a light green /yellow wire
The lose wire you had was green and yellow wasn't it?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 25, 2016, 06:14:49 PM
Hey Heo.  No its a solid yellow wire.  Also PCM and relay are about 9 inches apart, so I am thinking their wiring would be all under the hood.  Nice catch though  :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on July 25, 2016, 08:18:04 PM
Hey Jason, here are some diagrams I dug up for you per Ford.

(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/jaredaebly/9934ccaf-2e79-4d35-981d-28d20ee67b67_zpszyrntugs.jpg) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jaredaebly/media/9934ccaf-2e79-4d35-981d-28d20ee67b67_zpszyrntugs.jpg.html)
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/jaredaebly/c5a2959a-cb62-44e7-94d1-9e092381acbd_zpscs96hblb.jpg) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jaredaebly/media/c5a2959a-cb62-44e7-94d1-9e092381acbd_zpscs96hblb.jpg.html)
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/jaredaebly/ad86e136-76f8-4c0f-aa4c-bd9c2da10c59_zps0i3lo9yj.jpg) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jaredaebly/media/ad86e136-76f8-4c0f-aa4c-bd9c2da10c59_zps0i3lo9yj.jpg.html)
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/jaredaebly/5fbe1bee-2c84-47c3-95fd-e3646c42774f_zpscyjiupoe.jpg) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jaredaebly/media/5fbe1bee-2c84-47c3-95fd-e3646c42774f_zpscyjiupoe.jpg.html)
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/jaredaebly/7cb72063-b56c-4c0a-a3a9-d764620915e7_zpsus8zqot0.jpg) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jaredaebly/media/7cb72063-b56c-4c0a-a3a9-d764620915e7_zpsus8zqot0.jpg.html)
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/jaredaebly/921ab062-ec74-4a5c-a327-f3350f4e8aa8_zpsv7hhejsz.jpg) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jaredaebly/media/921ab062-ec74-4a5c-a327-f3350f4e8aa8_zpsv7hhejsz.jpg.html)

These are laid out in order from clutch pedal switch where you said you have power to the Bussed Electrical Center, where the starter relay is located. Looks like you need to trace the red and light blue wire through the circuit and find where the problem lies. I've tried to include the connectors you need to check with location(on vehicle) and pin locations within the connectors. I also included a quick reference of the starter relay at the end. Hope this helps you more.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on July 25, 2016, 08:47:40 PM
Jared, where did you find those at? Does Ford have a web page that has their schematics on it?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 25, 2016, 08:50:36 PM
Thanks Jared!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on July 25, 2016, 09:17:03 PM
Jared, where did you find those at? Does Ford have a web page that has their schematics on it?

Doug, I got these from the Ford site I use at the dealership I work for. I can access the same info. at home if I want, provided I use my login. Unfortunately, the site isn't open to everyone.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 26, 2016, 08:16:01 AM
I was noticing the differences between the diagram I found online and the diagram Jared was kind enough to pull for me using the cars exact VIN#.  Interesting....

So using Jareds Diagram, I crawled back under the dash of the car late last night and saw something interesting.  There are "2" switches!  There is a switch in the clutch area (the one I tested with the tester light probe) which you complete the circuit by pushing in the clutch pedal and pressing in the plunger.  And then.....  There is another switch on a bracket all the way at the top of the clutch pedal which you complete the circuit when you press the clutch pedal down and let the plunger out!  I should try to test that one too.

Also, using Jared diagrams, if I understand correctly, we have 12 volts coming from the Smart junction box to the CPP (which I understand now is the top switch and not the bottom one) via a RD/LB wire.  Then from that switch, the same RD/LB wire goes to the relay in the Bussed electrical center and then to the starter solenoid.

What is unclear is:

The clutch switch I have been testing (and shows power) located at the bottom side of the clutch pedal assembly where you complete the circuit when you push the plunger in is not shown on the diagrams.  Where does that power go?  LOL

Also, I see that although the top clutch switch (CPP- where when you push the clutch pedal down, you let the plunger out) feeds 12 V directly to the Bussed Electrical center Starter relay, it has the Passive anti theft device tied in some how (as per the diagram).  What's happening there?

and thirdly, assuming I can not figure this out, how can I rewire this so that I can "safely" get this car running?

Thoughts?    ***Amendment- the 2 switched associated with the clutch pedal are:  Clutch Starter Safety Switch (bottom switch- which I tested and the switch is good and there is power at "start")   the other switch which is at the top of the pedal assembly is the CPP or Clutch Pedal Position switch (which is the one in Jared's Diagrams above) that I have not tested yet.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 26, 2016, 11:49:18 AM
Just another thought.  It looks like (from the diagram) that the Clutch Pedal Position switch supplies power (+) to one side of the relay (Pin 85) and the PCM by way of the Passive anti theft system supplies ground (-) to pin 86.

Am I correct on this?  If this is the case, I could check ground at pin 86, and that way rule out the PCM and the anti-theft system (I'm pretty sure the anti theft system is ok given the reaction of the indicator light on the dash).

I just find the wiring diagram at the point of the relay a little confusing.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 26, 2016, 01:08:35 PM
OK, multiple posts- yes, but I want to get this all out (instead of on doodles on scrap paper)

-Battery Tested 12.6 V with Multimeter

-Voltage to starter Motor tested 12.6 V with Multimeter (using the starter case as the ground)

-Jumped the starter with a screwdriver and the starter and solenoid worked fine.

- Smart Junction box fuse location F2.21 (Starter relay circuit, PCM Key Off) tested good with the test light probe.  Fuse not blown.

-Power to "clutch starter safety switch" tested good with test light probe.  This is the switch at the bottom of the clutch pedal assembly that the plunger is depressed when you push the clutch all the way to the floor.

-"Clutch starter safety switch" tested good itself with Ohm setting on Multimeter.  Shows "OL' with switch open.  Push the plunger down and the multimeter shows 00.00

-Tested starter relay in bussed electrical center.  Pin location 30 shows constant voltage with the test light probe.  Pin 85 (Starter Relay, Control), Pin 86 (Starter Relay, Feed) & Pin 87 (Starter Relay, output) Show nothing with key in start position.

-Constant power to Pin 30 on the relay is fed through Fuse F1.4 (Pink cube fuse in the Bussed Electrical Center next to the relay itself).  This proves Fuse F1.4 is good.

What I am going to try next.......

- Pin 85 (Starter Relay, Control) should be a ground (-) supplied by the PCM (powertrain control Module) and the PATS (Passive Anti-Theft System).  I want to test that this Pin location is showing a ground with the key in the start position.  I will use the Ohm's setting on the Multimeter (One lead in the Pin hole and the other lead on the (-) Battery terminal to ensure the PCM and PATS are sending the ground (-) signal at start up.

- Although I checked the Clutch Starter Safety Switch, I just found another switch called the "Clutch Pedal Position Switch" which is actually the switch all of the diagrams are referring to.  There is a wire (Red/ Light Blue) which feeds into the switch (coming from the SJB) and feeding out of the Switch to the Bussed Electrical Center (Relay Pin Location 86- Starter Relay, Feed)

This is where I am at the moment   ::)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on July 26, 2016, 04:06:30 PM
my head hurts  ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: mike7570 on July 26, 2016, 04:23:02 PM
If I had a car with a brand new SOHC that was run in on Jay's dyno just begging for the first real drive, I would have given up and run a new wire from the clutch switch to the starter solenoid and go drive the car!
Come back a mess with the wiring after getting a bunch of miles on the thing.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on July 26, 2016, 04:53:25 PM
X2 Mike.
The hot wire would have come into play along time ago. ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: 68fecyclone on July 26, 2016, 05:08:53 PM
If that car was mine it would have been started four pages ago, just to here it running.  Then deal with the wiring. A simple four foot piece of wire to the starter and battery each time it needed started. :). Rob
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on July 26, 2016, 05:16:03 PM
Hell i should have push started it by myself if there was no one to help me ;D ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jmlay on July 26, 2016, 09:46:35 PM
The starter relay pin 85 is the positive side of the relay, should be ~12V when measured with a meter,with pin 86 is the negative side of the relay. Pin 86 will be "open" when PCM is NOT allowing start, 2nd attachment. Pin 86 will be grounded when the PCM criteria is met to allow allow the starter to have voltage, 3rd attachment.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 26, 2016, 10:00:06 PM
Going to give the wires a "once over" this weekend.  If still not fixed, I am just going to run my own relay.  This way I control ground (-) and ill pull signal voltage from the switch I have already tested.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 28, 2016, 07:54:54 AM
Hi All,

Going to try one more time this weekend to find the glitch in the wiring and then I am just going to run my own relay to get a starter signal.

If im thinking about this correctly, the car has 2 ways of blocking the signal.  No voltage passing through the clutch switches and the other way is the PCM anti theft not sending the ground to the relay.

In my case, to bypass, I would hook up a direct feed and ground to the relay, and then a feed wire from my own switch (or ignition) and then another ground?  Do I have this right for a 4 pin relay?

Thanks
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jmlay on July 28, 2016, 08:43:50 AM
I would insert 12Vdc at pin 85 of the relay first to see what that does, 12Vdc at 85 also feeds 12Vdc to the passive anti-theft. IF that does not work I would keep the 12Vdc at 85 and then put a switched ground on 86.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 28, 2016, 08:54:09 AM
Thanks.  I was thinking that since I am going to be running a new relay to bypass the PCM and Passive anti theft, I might as well just install a push button start (so that I way I can run fresh wires to all areas?  I don't think I want to try and make the relay in the Bussed Electrical center work (Since this annoyance is taking a lot of time and this car is sitting there ready to drive at this point.......  with the exception of the starter actually working).

Something like this work???
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/10564/10002/-1
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 28, 2016, 11:25:32 AM
Got this just now:

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/s-l300_zpsxlmlfjpp.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/s-l300_zpsxlmlfjpp.jpg.html)

Push button start that fits in the cigarette outlet of a 2005 Mustang.  Also comes with its own relay and the wiring. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on July 28, 2016, 11:53:41 AM
I thought about sugesting that :D but thought naaaa...
to crude in that car
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 28, 2016, 12:12:44 PM
My thought was to get it because then I can run fresh wiring to the starter without screwing with the OEM harness and possibly frying the Anti Theft module or the Powertrain control Module.  It looks like it will fit right in, and then I just need to extend the wire that goes to the Solenoid (Signal), Extend the power (to the mini buss bar under the hood), Extend connect the ground to a grounding stud, and then tap into a "Hot in run" wire instead of "hot In start".  This is because you would just turn the key to run (so the MSD ignition box and the fuel pumps are going) and then hit the "start" button.  At the very least I can get started with tuning the engine and stop worrying about the miles and miles of wires in this car (As the entire car is sensors and electronics).....  Guess I just got luck the first time I had it running.....  right up until the luck ran out.  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: mike7570 on July 28, 2016, 03:55:59 PM
Don't forget to take care of that live yellow wire under the dash!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: TimeWarpF100 on July 28, 2016, 09:51:14 PM
Got this just now:

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/s-l300_zpsxlmlfjpp.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/s-l300_zpsxlmlfjpp.jpg.html)

Push button start that fits in the cigarette outlet of a 2005 Mustang.  Also comes with its own relay and the wiring.

That button will do no good if the PATS system is not working properly.

I have messed with Ford PATS quite a bit recently on a Engine Swap Project.

I had the same issue as you are having. Turns out it was the PATS.  I would run a scan even with a cheap scan tool first to rule out PATS.

Check if any codes. If no codes it should be a easy fix.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 29, 2016, 07:33:51 AM
Hey TimeWarp,

My thought was to bypass the PCM and the PATS.  It is my understanding that the Pats works through the PCM to supply the necessary ground to the relay (as an anti theft measure).  The Clutch pedal position switch then supplies the necessary voltage. 

My thought was to bypass the PCM and the PATS so that the relay has a constant ground.  Then as long as my Clutch pedal position switch is good, I will have 12V to send as the starter signal?

I understand that PATS also will stop the OEM fuel injectors and sometimes the fuel pump, but I am using the FAST EFI system so these wont be issues.  I only need to bypass the PATS system to get the starter to respond.  All else is controlled by a separate ECU (FAST efi)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 29, 2016, 09:50:43 AM
Fount this diagram online.

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/relay5_zpsuhvaulk5.png) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/relay5_zpsuhvaulk5.png.html)

My thought was:

Pin 30 - will be 12V(+) constant from battery
Pin 87- Trigger wire (+) to starter Solenoid
Pin 85- Constant Ground (-) so we don't have to worry about the PCM/ PATS supplying it.
Pin 86- 12V(+) from push button start switch.


Then on the push button start......

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/PBSWiringDiagram_zpsbvhbeqli.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/PBSWiringDiagram_zpsbvhbeqli.jpg.html)

- Top wire on the Push Button Start goes to pin 86 (the person who made this sketch swapped their pin locations)
- Second wire will get 12V(+) from  a "Hot in Run" wire so the key actually has to be turned to run and fuel pumps running before you can push the button to start.
- Third wire will be a ground wire for the switch.
- 2 separate wires in the diagram I am guessing are power and ground for the bulb to make the switch light up .

Does this seem right?  I have to stress I hate wiring, but at least this way I don't have to worry about anti theft or Powertrain control module telling the car not to start.



Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on July 29, 2016, 10:25:19 AM
Wire the start button with 12 all the time
sometimes you need to crank the engine
without fuel and spark
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 29, 2016, 03:21:26 PM
Thanks Heo. Good Idea.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 02, 2016, 12:58:29 PM
OK push start button is on its way (with 6 feet of wiring so I can run all separate than existing ignition wires.)

Question.  the button goes in the center of the dash above the radio.  it actually takes the place of a 12V outlet (cigarette lighter in older cars  LOL).  In a 2005 Mustang, the 12V outlet is hot at all times, not just when the key is in run or start.  Should I hook the button up to these wires?  I was thinking it would work, but then the car can be started and "Driven away"  without use of the key.  Maybe not the best Idea but wanted to ask.  I could always cap them and find a "hot in run" wire, but wanted to ask since it so convenient to have the wires right there  LOL

Thoughts?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on August 02, 2016, 01:15:12 PM
It's just the start button, right?  If that's all it is, you are correct that the car can be cranked at any time without the key, but the ignition system will require the key to be on before it is energized.  So, the car can't be driven away.  Or, have I misunderstood something?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 02, 2016, 01:56:45 PM
Nope.  You are correct!  I was having a senior moment.  You would need the key to activate the Ignition box, computer and fuel pumps.  I honestly do not know what I was thinking.  I think that's what Heo meant by wiring it so that you could crank it without fuel and spark.....  never mind.  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Tboggus on August 04, 2016, 04:49:27 PM
I would figure how to wire it so that you couldn't hit the start button with the engine running. That way the starter could not be engaged with the flywheel while it is spinning. Maybe being pessimistic but a passenger could mash the start button while you're running 75 down the highway.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: ScotiaFE on August 05, 2016, 09:30:12 AM
Write "HORN" on the button.
No one will want to push it. ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 05, 2016, 09:57:50 AM
Start button arrives today in the mail (Supposedly).  Hoping to tackle it this weekend. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 08, 2016, 08:03:32 AM
OK button came this weekend, but then I wanted to run it past you guys since I had doubts after seeing the wiring.  Did't quite look like what I had expected:

In my head, before the button arrived, I was going to unplug the 12 V outlet (cigarette lighter) and use the power and ground from that pigtail to power the button.

When the start button arrived, it looks like everything is piggybacked off of the relay, so the start button itself has a harness which all the wires are already connected to the relay (no loose wires for me to reconnect to the power and ground that came off of the back of the 12V outlet.  the only loose wires come out of the relay.  There is a "Red-thick(er)" wire which is power, there is a "Black Thin" wire which is the ground (already has an ring connector attached), and then there is a "Red Thick(er)" wire with a green spiral which should go to the solenoid.

I just wanted to double check before installing.  I am going to unplug the 12V outlet from the dash and just tuck that pigtail up under the radio (will not be used).  Then I will connect the thin Black wire with the ring connector to a grounding source, I will take the red thick wire and put it to a source that's hot in "Run" and "Start", and the Red thick wire with the green spiral and run it right to the starter.  Sound about right?

Here is what the button setup looks like currently:

From the button to the relay (Pin 30) - Blue thin wire
From the relay (Pin 30) to no where currently (loose wire)-Red Thick wire

From the Button to the relay (Pin 86) - Black Thin wire
From the relay (Pin 86) to no where currently (Ring connector on the end)

From the relay (Pin 87) to no where currently (loose wire)-Red Thick wire with Green Spiral

From the Button to the relay (Pin 85)- Red thin wire


(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/Untitled_zpswgyjmb90.png) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/Untitled_zpswgyjmb90.png.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on August 08, 2016, 08:55:26 PM
Have you considered a hand crank? I've never seen one fail to work. 8)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 09, 2016, 07:49:12 AM
or just push start the car by popping the clutch.  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 13, 2016, 10:41:53 AM
Hey Guys.  Got started this weekend, finally.  It is not an exact fit straight out of the box ( because its a start button from a Honda S2000, but a little time and patience at the table with assorted diamond files, and It fits better than any mustang part, and looks like it came from the factory.  Now I just need to run the signal wire to the starter:


(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/F9870136-EAF6-4855-8E43-69CF47B6998A_zpsdphnjmfb.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/F9870136-EAF6-4855-8E43-69CF47B6998A_zpsdphnjmfb.jpg.html)



(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/E4C40AC1-4479-4DEF-9B42-FCF7763698C2_zpsdttnif6b.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/E4C40AC1-4479-4DEF-9B42-FCF7763698C2_zpsdttnif6b.jpg.html)


Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 15, 2016, 08:06:47 AM
OK got it all wired up and back into the car.  This button (if I didn't already say it somewhere) was in order to bypass the PCM and the cars Passive Anti-Theft module.  I can't blame the car......  all in all there were probably 20+ sensors on the modular engine.  Now that the cammer is sitting in there, they are just unconnected pigtails just hanging there.  Cars computer can't "think straight" because it probably looks as if there is no engine in the car with all of the inputs missing.  Either way, I wanted to bypass the computers rather than cut and splice in wires incase down the road, if and when I have the electrical system done professionally, I can continue to use the key to start the car as well as the start button.

Took about 3 hours in all, but works perfectly.  I like ending on a high note these days, so I did not want to press on any further for the weekend.  I did however try cranking the engine with the ignition box switch off in order to try and get oil pressure to register on the gauge.  I only tried maybe 2 separate cranks of about 5 seconds each (I know that's not really that long, but I am nervous to burn out another starter.  I will try another few times to see if I can get oil pressure before I flip on the ignition box and FAST ECU switch and start the initial setup on the hand held.

Speaking of FAST ecu's....  I just got off the phone with the companies tech support.  I was remembering when I had the car running last year, I had followed the directions and adjusted the throttle blades (to get the indicator bar in range) when the car reached operating temperature.  Unfortunately, I was adjusting the blades with the huge vacuum leak.  I wanted to make sure I spoke with FAST to see how the throttle blades should be set when starting over.  The instructions per the tech were to close the throttle blades on both throttle bodies all the way.  Then crack them both open 1/4 of a turn.  I will do this when I get home from work today.  Also, the oil pan plug I found on speedway motors (which is actually a break booster fitting) is not working that well.  There is some oil under the car as its not sealing up the oil pan that well.  Luckily, Jegs just came out with a new plug (for a tranny), but the exact male and female threads I needed.  I picked it up as well as 9 quarts of new oil (as I do not want to reuse the oil that comes out when I switch the fitting).  As soon as I swap that out, I will roll the car into the driveway and give it a go!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on August 15, 2016, 02:00:41 PM
Jason -

Glad to hear you're getting ahead of the electrical gremlins.  The new oil pan plug is a good thing too, because that will drive you crazy!  You'd probably end up stripping the threads trying to torque that old one up...

Looking forward to hearing the rumble coming from out East soon.

- Bill
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 16, 2016, 09:16:39 AM
Thanks Bill.  I was able to swap out that oil pan plug last night and reinstall the oil temp sender into it.  Then poured in a new batch of oil (9 quarts)....  no leaks.  :0)

Last thing to do is Fill it up with the new 93 Octane (since I pumped out the Gas from last year), get oil pressure to register on the gauge and start!

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: mike7570 on August 16, 2016, 03:35:30 PM
Like your subject line says "Finally the time has come!"   Well, start it already !
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 18, 2016, 05:18:15 PM
Ok.  Got off work early today and buttoned up all of the last little things.  Air damn under radiator is reinstalled.  Checked around to make sure the oil pan plug is still not leaking oil ( it wasn't), re-adjusted fuel pressure to 43 psi as per the FAST instructions, checked to ensure throttle blades are in the original position on both throttle bodies for initial startup, and finally trying to prime the engine by cranking it over with the ignition box turned off.  Unfortunately I cranked it about 5 seperate times ( for 3 to 4 seconds each time).  I am not able to get oil pressure to register on the gauge doing this.  Question is, should I keep trying to crank it 4 seconds at a time until it registers?  I really dont want to remove the distributor at all.  Sounds stupid, but Jay has the engine working so perfectly, I dont want to "screw" with even the smallest part.  Lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on August 18, 2016, 07:47:22 PM
Jason, with that oil pan and the long pickup tube, you will need to crank a lot longer than 4 seconds to get any oil up to the pump.  I would try cranking for 15-20 seconds, then stop, wait a few seconds, then repeat.  The primary concern is overheating the starter.  Better yet, if you really want to see oil pressure on the gauge before startup (which is a good idea), pull all the plugs so there is no compression, and then crank.  The engine will spin much faster, and you will be sure to see pressure on the gauge then.  In any case, though, you will probably need to crank for 15-20 seconds, and do it a few times, before that oil pump gets oil from the pan - Jay
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 18, 2016, 07:54:52 PM
Thanks Jay.  I will do that!  Can you tell me what the torque specs are on the spark plugs ( for when I reinstall?)

Thanks again!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on August 18, 2016, 09:01:10 PM
Be sure to ground the spark plug wires!

Torque.....http://www.briskusa.com/how_change_spark_plugs_torque_spec_chart
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on August 18, 2016, 10:11:56 PM
This is just my opinion(I would say take it for what it's worth, but it ain't worth diddly), but I would pull the cap on the dist.(wires still attatched and set to the side) and put a sharpie mark where the rotor is relative to housing and make an index mark for the housing near dist. clamp and yank it. Then prime the oiling system with a drill. Just remember to set it for reverse.

If you want to go the other route and jusk keep cranking to get oil pressure, I would much rather pull the power feed wire from the coil than grounding each spark plug wire or coil wire.

Good luck!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on August 18, 2016, 11:32:32 PM
The plugs just need to be tightened down to contact and then turn the wrench another 1/16 of a turn.  There isn't a torque spec as far as I know - Jay
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 19, 2016, 07:40:08 AM
The plugs just need to be tightened down to contact and then turn the wrench another 1/16 of a turn.  There isn't a torque spec as far as I know - Jay

Thanks Jay
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 19, 2016, 07:45:19 AM
This is just my opinion(I would say take it for what it's worth, but it ain't worth diddly), but I would pull the cap on the dist.(wires still attatched and set to the side) and put a sharpie mark where the rotor is relative to housing and make an index mark for the housing near dist. clamp and yank it. Then prime the oiling system with a drill. Just remember to set it for reverse.

If you want to go the other route and jusk keep cranking to get oil pressure, I would much rather pull the power feed wire from the coil than grounding each spark plug wire or coil wire.

Good luck!

Thanks Jared.  I actually have the MSD ignition box on a toggle.  When I crank the engine trying to prime, I just leave the toggle in the off position.  Then I believe there is no need to ground the plugs 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on August 19, 2016, 03:24:32 PM
Jason, fire the darn thing already!

Those cylinders are going to rust from the humidity at this rate :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Barry_R on August 19, 2016, 04:15:34 PM
Agreed
Best way to preoil a dyno run motor that is not been parked for a long time is to make a bunch of noise!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 19, 2016, 07:22:26 PM
Ok
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 20, 2016, 12:57:03 PM
Ok brand new 93 octane and a little fiddle-e-do with the throttle blades to get a 1000 rpm idle.....  Starts right up!!!  Had like 70 PSI oil pressure at startup.  Down to about 26-27 at operating temp(idle) and as I went through the gears in my neighborhood (only up to like 40-50 mph) I get about 55-60 psi oil pressure.

Coolant temp stayed at like 200 degrees and pusher fan helps greatly.  Everything sound about right?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on August 20, 2016, 01:22:14 PM
 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Art67 on August 20, 2016, 01:26:46 PM
 :D Congrats, been following this thread since the beginning, hope you can enjoy this crazy combo for awhile!!!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on August 20, 2016, 02:00:56 PM
Ok brand new 93 octane and a little fiddle-e-do with the throttle blades to get a 1000 rpm idle.....  Starts right up!!!  Had like 70 PSI oil pressure at startup.  Down to about 26-27 at operating temp(idle) and as I went through the gears in my neighborhood (only up to like 40-50 mph) I get about 55-60 psi oil pressure.

Coolant temp stayed at like 200 degrees and pusher fan helps greatly.  Everything sound about right?

Got to 50 and didn't walk home....sounds about right to me!

Look for wires that can burn, leaks, etc, then get a good run on it, it'd be nice if you could see an hour or so of mixed driving, but good work and nice job to both you and Jay.

Did it feel strong?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 20, 2016, 02:04:36 PM
Feels rediculous.  Just wants to go.  Hope to get a video on here soon
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on August 20, 2016, 02:14:21 PM
MUST.  SEE.   VIDEO!!   Need to see the GoPro shaking and falling off its mount  :D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on August 20, 2016, 03:12:19 PM
Feels rediculous. 

So good enough for now I guess :)  until you get used to it
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: thatdarncat on August 20, 2016, 04:38:32 PM
Sounds good, congrats. I bet you're smiling!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Bolted to Floor on August 20, 2016, 05:46:26 PM
Way to go Jason. Lotsa a hard work is paying off.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: rlsteel on August 20, 2016, 07:52:55 PM
Good job Jason I have been watching (and enjoying) this thread for a long time. RLS
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on August 20, 2016, 09:56:39 PM
Congrats Jason! I'm really glad to see you stick with it. Hope you can go out now and really put the hurt on those tires. ;D  And yes, we must see video footage of this awesome car!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Barry_R on August 20, 2016, 10:56:16 PM
Outstanding!
Gotta feel great having it finally running again!
Congrats on a hard fought success!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on August 21, 2016, 08:41:57 AM
Yeah! Way cool! We do need video!  8)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on August 21, 2016, 11:28:57 AM
Congrats, Jason. It's been a pretty hard and long battle for you, but kudos on not giving up. I'd have to imagine the car has a totally different feel compared to the blown 4.6 that was in it. Instant torque needs a healthy dose of respect.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 21, 2016, 12:20:23 PM
Thanks Guys.  Sadly, too early to celebrate.  I am sitting here waiting on a flatbed.  Car was running well, and then just shut off at a stop sign.  Ecu said battery at 7 volts ( so was on my way back home quickly) , but shut off and wont restart.  Tried jumping it, but to starter again.  MSD ignition box, ECU, Fans, fuel pumps all work, but now no starter again( even while jumper cables attached)  unsure why battery wasnt charging or now why starter wont work. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 21, 2016, 01:02:45 PM
Ok while waiting for the flatbed (40 min), i did snooping while mumbling and cursing under my breath.  Found a blown fuse in the kick panel ( it was one of the 2 fuses in tge add a fuse I have plugged in yo give the mini buss bar power in Acc. And run key positions.  I have maybe 3 items on that buss bar- the oil pressure gauge, the power to the ecu, the lockout module on the trans, and something else.  i had 2- 10 amp fuses in there and 1 popped.  I might need to get a larger add a fuse?  Anyway, swapped the blown fuse and car started right up.  Back it the garage now
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on August 21, 2016, 02:53:39 PM
The fact that the fuse didn't blow right away tells me you do not have a short. I believe you may have just had too much current draw on that circuit for the fuse and it let go. I would try going to maybe atleast a 15 or 20amp fuse.

Good luck!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: newfalconowner on August 21, 2016, 07:07:14 PM
would love to see the video and a lot of pictures... Must feel real good to get a few miles on it after all the set backs..
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Joe-JDC on August 21, 2016, 08:08:20 PM
Well, this ordeal has been an eye opener of a sorts for me.  I have been looking for a late model car for some time to build a sleeper with a very large FE and 6 speed trans.  I am not so sure that I want to go through all the issues you have with this transplant.  I hope you get the gremlins worked out, and it gives you enjoyment.  I think I will start looking for a '50s Ford now, instead.  At least I can understand them.  LOL.  Joe-JDC
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on August 21, 2016, 08:34:22 PM
Well, this ordeal has been an eye opener of a sorts for me.  I have been looking for a late model car for some time to build a sleeper with a very large FE and 6 speed trans.  I am not so sure that I want to go through all the issues you have with this transplant.  I hope you get the gremlins worked out, and it gives you enjoyment.  I think I will start looking for a '50s Ford now, instead.  At least I can understand them.  LOL.  Joe-JDC

Absolutely, Joe. With new cars, the keyed ignition is just a front for the computer. The key no longer does anything except for the computer to recognize its chip as correct for the car. You can see this on any new car by just 'bumping' the key, then quickly releasing it. The computer will hesitate for a second while it gathers all the data, then tells the car to start. That means the computer has to recognize at least a dozen parameters for everything to work properly. Being an '05, I'm not sure if Jason's car is that way, so I didn't comment, but I can tell you that every newer vehicle that we have at work is that way, and they go back to '06.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on August 22, 2016, 07:47:18 AM
Just coming up for air after being immersed in my Drag Week project for the last couple weeks, and glad to see you have the engine running and the car driving.  You can expect some little gremlins like the fuse along the way, based on all the changes you have made to the car.  You just have to work through them one at a time, and eventually you will get all the little problems solved and the car will be a reliable driver.  Must have felt good to be back on the road!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 22, 2016, 08:25:21 AM
Yes sir  lol  Feel better finding it was just a fuse.  I think where most of my issues are going to pop up is the fact that the saleens engine management system ( computer) controls many small "items" throughout.  Although the FAST ecu will keep the engine running, J will need to work around items I find not working because the OEM computer fritzes out not having many of the required sensors attached.  What has me thinking is why the FAST ecu was showing 7 volts after a good 20-30 minutes of driving.  The alternator should be recharging the battery, but it does not seem to be.  This may be something controlled by the OEM ecu?  I will do a few tests on therecharging jn the driveway, and maybe see if there is a way to wire the 3G alternator up so it directly charges the batterywithout relying on the ECU?  Definately great to be driving it!  Thanks again to everyone for the support throughout!!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 22, 2016, 10:09:48 AM
Ok did some reading, and I think my 2 gremlins are connected.  Blown fuse and the alternator not charging the battery.  I have a 3 G alternator with regulator on the back.  From the ford wiring diagram, there seems to be an input from the OEM computer that connects to the regulator.  I believe this connection gives the alternator a signal to charge the battery.  Since my ECU is on the fritz given all the missing sensor inputs, i was curious how I can bypass any signal from tge OEM ecu so that the alternator will charge the battery without input from the computer. 


http://iihs.net/fsm/?dir=40&viewfile=Charging%20System.pdf

Above is a link to the charging systems diagram.  From what it seems, my 3G has a built in voltage regulator.  The original 6G relied on a voltage regulator inside the ecu.  I guess I really just need to know how to wire the 3 g on the cammer engine correctly.  Any thoughts?  This is what the seller said that I purchased from.

"this alternator has two wires, thin wire goes to the dash battery light.
or you need ignition power.
You need to run second wire from battery positive to alternator post 4 gauge wire"

What I had purchased was a wiring harness that makes a 3G Alternator connect in a car that originally had a 6G alternator (Like the Saleen).  This now seems like I have a 3G alternator with an external voltage regulator(on the back of the alternator) being fed through a wiring harness coming from the OEM ECU that has another voltage regulator(since the 6G alternators do not have a regulator- They are regulated from within the ECU......   Basically I just want to bypass the OEM ecu .  Any thoughts?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 22, 2016, 02:21:20 PM

Found this diagram on the Factory five website.  What I can say is that I do not have a ground wire attached to the back of the alternator.  Would it have been possible that the original 6G alternator wouldn't have had a ground wire, but the 3G alternators need one?  I cant seem to find a clear answer to that online (and oddly, some of the wiring diagrams for 3G alternators don't show a ground wire either.

Thoughts?




(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/0D52F751-0732-4097-8864-E32D53111537_zpsacl89pc3.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/0D52F751-0732-4097-8864-E32D53111537_zpsacl89pc3.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on August 22, 2016, 03:54:25 PM
That diagram looks like how I've got mine wired.  I don't use the ground wire since the engine is grounded, and the stud for the ground wire just goes right to the case of the alternator.  As long as the engine is well grounded, you shouldn't need to hook that wire up.  I hooked the yellow wire right to the big stud on the back of the alternator that the large cable also has to go to.  Then, ignition switch power to the green wire, which energizes the voltage regulator.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 23, 2016, 01:39:15 PM
Thanks Jay.  I will just disconnect the pigtail from the OEM harness.  I will then loop the yellow power wire up to the power stud ( thick red power cable), and the run a fresh 12V signal wire ( hot in run).  Hopefully this will work and then 2 little gremlins handled.  Lol 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 23, 2016, 07:17:42 PM
Ok.  Crawled under the car tonight.  In checking out the alternator, it was basically wired correctly..... "Basically".  The yellow wire was already looped back up to the power stud.  The white wire was plugged in correctly ( as shown in the picture above).  Finally, the pigtail connected the green "trigger" wire plugged into the oem harness which is linked to the computer.  I disconnected the pigtail, and ran a new wire from the infamous mini buss bar on the passenger side kick panel.

I then replaced the blown 10 amp fuse that feeds that same mini buss bar with "hot in run" voltage with a 15 amp fuse.  I now have all 5 spots on the buss bar occupied, but am nervous about guessing what amp fuse is large enough, but not too big to fry the wire or worse all the items connected.  Does 12v signal wires pull much?

Battery charger is on.  Will start her up on Saturday, check voltage at the battery while the engine is running. And then some more deiving!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on August 23, 2016, 07:26:50 PM
That green wire should take very little current, probably less than an amp.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 24, 2016, 08:48:47 AM
Thank Jay.  What I was trying to research online is this:  I have 5 accessories connected to the mini buss bar supplying power when the key is in the run position.  These are items like the FAST ECU, Fuel Pumps, Oil Pressure Gauge, Transmission Lock out Module, and now the Alternator.

I was wondering what would have caused the fuse to pop if these "signal" wires pull such a small amount of amps.  I saw that sometimes a drained battery will cause items in a car to pull extra amperage, but I don't know how reliable that source was...  and even if that was the case, with only 4 wires at the time connected, that's would have been somewhere around 2 amps?  I had a 10 amp fuse in there.  Any thoughts?  I replaced the 10 amp fuse that feeds the mini buss bar with a 15 amp fuse, but since I am not totally confident on electrical, was that the right move?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on August 24, 2016, 11:27:03 AM
You said "fuel pumps".  Do you have more than one, and are these the power wires to the fuel pumps?  If so they will draw a lot of current, and that could be why the fuse popped.

If they are signal wires, so that they turn the pump on or off but the pump is normally connected to the battery via a large wire to get its power, then the current requirement would be low, and I would say you probably have an intermittent short somewhere, and that's why the fuse popped.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 24, 2016, 11:41:12 AM
Hi Jay,

No you are correct.  There are Dual fuel pumps, however the power wires run directly to the battery.  The wire on the mini bus is just a signal wire to activate the pumps when the key is turned on.  :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 24, 2016, 08:45:01 PM
Ok, so I wanted to test the charge of the alternator.  Started the car.  Multimeter says the battery was 12.45 volts.  The FAST handheld says battery is at 12 volts.  Took the car for a drive around the block at which point the handheld says the battery was 11.8 volts.  Quickly pulled over and checked the battery which still showed 12.45 volts.  Unsure why thehandheld said that.  All in all, car was driving and at idle gor about 40 minutes and tye multimeter always read 12.45volts so I guess its charging

I did notice that pulling back into the driveway, the belt squeeled a little.  I think Ill tighten the alternator belt a little more before the next spin.  I took a video, but still awaiting its download onto photobucket!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Barry_R on August 24, 2016, 10:01:05 PM
Running voltage should be higher than that - more like 13.2-13.7ish.
You're not charging.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on August 24, 2016, 11:08:47 PM
Barry is correct, Jason, you should have around 13.4V at the battery if the alternator is charging the battery. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 25, 2016, 07:49:27 AM
Hi Guys,

Alternator is wired correctly and with the 3G, the regulator is right on the back (built on to the alternator).  Should I run a new Power cable from the alternator to the battery?  I think in the Saleen, the OEM wiring runs the power cable over to where the starter is and then branches off to go back to the battery.  Starter works fine.....  not sure why the alternator is not charging the battery (since there are not that many wires).  Any suggestions?


Here is a video of the car running yesterday evening as well as each screen on the EFI handheld......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_VcqA0nFdM

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Royce on August 25, 2016, 08:14:58 AM
bad alternator or alternator not getting current from ignition on ???
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on August 25, 2016, 08:15:10 AM
Is it charging if you give it some rpm? i have that problem
right now. I put a new alternator in my sisters Mercedes
and idling the dash flashes red and  warning for
no charge. It goes away if i give it some rpm
I guess faulty Alternator although its new
multimeter shows 12.4 idling 13,7 with some RPM
The diagnos with the laptop shows the same
the relay cuts in at around 1200 rpm
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 25, 2016, 11:21:27 AM
Brand new alternator and a fresh new signal wire run from the passenger side mini buss bar to the signal wire on the alternator.  When driving the car, handheld shows 11.8 volts while driving at speed, but as soon as I hop out and test battery with the multimeter, it shows 12.42.  I guess I can first use the multimeter to test the power stud on the back of the alternator while the car is running.  If that shows 13+ volts, then I guess ill need to run a fresh 8 or 4 gauge power wire straight to the battery?

I am cutious why the handheld shows 11.8 when the battery shows 12.42 at the same time  lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on August 25, 2016, 12:05:20 PM
Jeez O flips that thing sounds nice.
I had an '05 Saleen and it didn't sound anything like that.
Gee and mine had a "cammer" too ;)
Been a long trip with some miles to go but really a cool car.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on August 25, 2016, 04:11:17 PM
If the alternator is wired correctly, use your test light to make sure the key-on-engine-running wire (hell, all wires)have power

If they all have power, then the alternator or internal regulator is bad.  If they don't, chase the wire
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 26, 2016, 07:46:33 AM
Thanks Ross,

This will be right up your alley also....  I spoke with a Tech at FAST about the efi settings.  I went over each value (as seen on the handheld in the youtube video).  The only one he had an issue with was the IAC.  He said it should be between 15-20 and my currently reads between 30-35.  What had happened was during the setup, the instructions ask you to start the car.  After starting the car (on larger engines), if it will not stay running, you have to turn the throttle blade adjustment screws so that the car will stay running at your chosen idle speed.  After you adjust the screw, you should shut off the system and recalibrate the Throttle position sensor.  This is something I did not do.  So the car would randomly rev up to like 1200 to 1300 RPS.  So I will re-calibrate this weekend.

Also, I explained to him that in 1st gear, there was almost a kind of hesitation.  Gears 2-4 (at this point I haven't gotten to highway speeds ), the engine purrs like a Tiger.

He explained that the EFI system is programed to give  a boost of fuel on acceleration.  this was prob bogging the engine down a little in 1st gear.  He suggested I go into the advanced settings and adjust the "Accel fuel" to -2 or -3 and this should solve the issue.


In other news, The radiator fans sufficiently cool the engine.  in the driveway sitting still after a drive, the fans were slowly cooling the engine down.  by the time I shut the car off, I was around 209 degrees, and I am not sure if it would still keep going down.  At some point, the relay will tun off the push fan and we should be ok. 

Also, I ordered a new 4 gauge alternator wire that feeds the battery with a built in fuse block.  I will most definitely check the voltage on the alternator, but even if the alternator is bad, I will want the new alternator to feed the battery directly and not go through the OEM wiring like it does now.

more to come but good stuff at this point  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on August 26, 2016, 10:59:31 AM
Sounds good

However, do not adjust the accel fuel until you calibrate the TPS, you may not need to

Remember the TPS tells the ECM what the human is trying to do, all other sensors are based on what the engine is doing.  So when you change something like throttle plate setting without recalibrating, the ECM is reading something different compared to what your foot is doing

You may need to adjust accel fuel later, but recalibrate and try it first
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 26, 2016, 11:44:10 AM
Awesome.  Good to know.  I will recalibrate the TPS first.  Hopefully with the calibration, the IAC will automatically correct to be around 15-20.  Then take her for a quick drive down the street to see if 1st gear is still a boggy.  If so, then I will adjust the accel fuel.  Thanks again  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on August 26, 2016, 02:27:25 PM
Also remember if you were having electrical issues, things can often get a little wonky. 

So I'd

1 - Fix alternator, ensure it's charging around 14.0-14.5
2 - Once things are stable and you are happy with charging, recalibrate TPS
3 - Make decisions from there.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 26, 2016, 05:55:54 PM
Just an FYI, I was screwing around in the garage tonight, and I noticed i could turn the waterpump pulley and the alternator pulley by hand, and it slides around the crank pulley.  Im pretty sure thats loose and you are not supposed to be able to spin the belt around while not turning the crank pulley  lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on August 26, 2016, 06:09:57 PM
Correct! That alone could be the low-to-charge problem. Try to tighten that puppy up but if you can still spin the fan ....

If they are all spun aluminum pulleys (spun/CNC machined, yada-yada) you may have some difficulty getting it tight as the belt can't easily 'bite' into the sides of the grooves. One could rough up the sides of the pulleys with some wet/dry sandpaper (320 to say 600) but before doing so, be sure that the bottom of the V portion of the belt isn't bottoming out. A properly sized belt has only the sides of the V touching the pulleys when locked down. A belt that sits too deep in the pulley groves will slip!   

http://vibralign.com/wp-content/uploads/photo-1-belt-size.jpg
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 27, 2016, 12:15:33 PM
Ok have some really great news and one small bit of bad news.  At this point, lets begin with the good.  Alternator was loose!  That was all.  Now13.5 volts charging !  Thanks Bob.

Second, had a cracked or bad vacuum cap between the 2 throttle bodies!  Replaced it this morning and reset the tune on the ECU.... Car now runs beautifully.

Third, took Ross's advice on the accel fuel setting, and tried a lap around the neighborhood after new tune... Still was a little "boggy" in 1st gear. Pulled back in, changed accel fuel setting to -2, and now runs pretty sweet!  ECU still learning, so only going to get better!

Now for bad news....  Oil leak.  Seems to be coming from back of the block and drippin out between scatter shield.  I checked the back of the intake, and its dry, so might be the oil galley plug on back of block.  At this time, too worn out ( 110 pages worth) to try and repair. Especially now that all else is working so well.  Maybe in future, I have a shop do it with a lift and a tranny jack.  Can't bare to pull the tranny again on my back.  Just going to enjoy the hell out of it in the fall weather!!!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: john a on August 28, 2016, 01:45:52 PM
Congrats, I'm happy for you. I've followed this since day one, talk about a long winding road. Let us know how it goes, I'm sure it's going to be a blast.

John
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 28, 2016, 05:53:33 PM
Thanks John 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: newfalconowner on August 28, 2016, 07:30:35 PM
sounds great.. Im at my stage of starting my car and going to be drive it soon, just need to wrap my head around on the Fast setup like your learning

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 28, 2016, 08:25:48 PM
There is a tech at FAST named Adam.  He was pretty good.  Also you can ask me anything and I will try and help.  Pretty good system 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: newfalconowner on August 28, 2016, 08:31:00 PM
thanx,, once I get it around the block one night this week and I have some questions I will ask you... I have a recent video in my post on the fe adapter/tunnel ram post
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on August 29, 2016, 07:55:27 AM
Hmmm, how bad is the oil leak?  Remember that the cork valve cover gaskets tend to compress after some hot/cold cycles, and will start to leak at the back corners.  Try tightening the valve cover bolts; if they are loose, that is likely your problem.  I think I had to tighten up the valve cover bolts at least once during the dyno session.

Also the SOHC has that oil drainback hole at the back of the heads.  If I recall correctly the Pond block doesn't kick out there as far as the factory SOHC blocks so there's a bunch of sealer smeared at the back of the head in that location, to cover the hole.  That could have started leaking. 

Run your finger along the lower rear corner of each valve cover/head interface, and see if you get oil on it.  You can do the same thing at the back of the head, towards the bottom, to check the oil drainback passage.  My guess is that it will be in one of those two places.

Glad to hear that you are getting the issues worked out!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on August 29, 2016, 08:01:04 AM
Jay - you read my mind!  I was thinking lower back corners of the valve covers as well.  Worth a shot Jason!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 29, 2016, 12:44:47 PM
Hi Jay,

Good thinking  :0)  I will definitely check that!  I ran my hand along the back of the intake manifold (I remember when I had my 68 Mustang, I had a leak back there too), but it was Dry.  I didn't think to check the back of each head/ valve cover.  Its actually a pretty consistent leak.  Maybe 1 drop per minute.  I guess if it were an oil galley on the back of the block, it would have leaked on the Dyno, so Its probably not and thus something simple like the valve covers.  I will definitely check when I get home!!!  Thanks again to everyone!!!  Super exciting.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 30, 2016, 07:41:56 PM
Great news!  Just as the suggestions......suggested, tightening the valve covers stopped the oil leak.  Just like me to over-react...

Interesting, maybe the valve cover oil leak was sort of a mini vacuum leak too?  I had to reset the throttle blades and recalibrated the TPS.  After tightening the valve cover, the car started and idled at 500 to 600 rpm.  Unsure, but either way, all starts, idles, drives, and no leaks!

Thanks again for suggestions.  This saturday, i am going to recheck valve cover bolts again, and exhaust manifold bolts too!  I remember someone had suggested that too after a few heat cycles.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on August 30, 2016, 08:39:32 PM
FYI, SCE has just released a new set of valve cover gaskets for the SOHC.  They are some kind of cork/rubber combination.  I have the first set on my engine right now, and sure enough, they do not seem to compress like the normal cork valve cover gaskets, and I'll bet they will hold the bolt tension longer.  I will find out as I go along.  You can thank Marc (Turbo hunter on the forum) for this, his brother Ryan owns SCE and made the new gaskets happen.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 30, 2016, 08:59:13 PM
Oh Awesome!  Yes, please keep me posted.  I may pick up a set as well!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 31, 2016, 03:48:23 PM
Here is another interesting tidbit.  OK the FAST EZ EFI I have is the first gen. one.  In doing a little reading, the first gen EFI's were not good at differentiating between cold starts and conditions when warmed up.  The handheld itself has you wait for the car to warm up before adjusting the idle screws that adjust the throttle blades.  When doing this, you are looking at the hand held in order to get the slide bar into the target range.  After doing all of this 9and the car already being at operating temp), the car runs beautifully and idles near perfect.

Now the next day......  You go out to the car and start it, and suddenly the RPS are way too low and it goes lower and lower until it stalls.  If you start it cold and keep on the throttle until its warm, then its back to running perfectly.

In comes this:  http://www.dragzine.com/news/a-fast-ez-efi-full-color-handheld-upgrade-that-youll-want-to-do/

Apparently this was a huge problem with all the people who bought the EZefi early on.  I just piced up this new handheld (*and software update).  The biggest improvement is that they now let you adjust the Cold start fuel setting, and a few other things.  It seems that letting you adjust the cold start fuel setting allows you to push the start button and it will run as its supposed to until it gets warmed up... then switch over to the original settings automatically........  GOOD TO KNOW!

I will let you all know how it goes.  Also its a touch screen display (color) with Gauges so I can mount it like a GPS and have a TACH again and monitor other functions.  The old handheld (as you have seen) is not nice or able to mount.



Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: mbrunson427 on August 31, 2016, 04:12:30 PM
We need nasty burnout videos and drag track wheels-up pics! What the heck!  ;D ;D

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: newfalconowner on August 31, 2016, 05:35:12 PM
let me know how the new handheld works.. I have that cold start problem with mine as well.. I cant really afford one but something to look into

Rick
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on August 31, 2016, 10:19:09 PM
500-600 rpms seems a bit low, especially for a stick car. The EFI may allow it to idle down that low, but personally I think I'd like it a bit higher to keep plenty of oil through the engine. Jay knows these engine better than me though, maybe he'll chime in about that?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 01, 2016, 07:38:40 AM
Hey Doug.  Yeah, this is the "Glitch" with the first gen. FAST ECU.  The newer versions have a cold start setting to keep your RPM's up until the engine is warm.  The original versions (Which I have one), does not have this setting, so when you set your EFI parameters during the initial setup, they are based off of a fully warmed up engine.

This new handheld (which they call an upgrade kit) allows you to adjust a few more items.  One is Fuel during cranking, the other is Cold start fuel, and there are a few others.  The new handheld will allow me to set it so that during a cold start, it gets a little more fuel to stay running at a higher RPM.  Then when the engine is warm, it switches over to the original settings.  I posted the article below.  I am anxious to see how this works because it seems that many people with the first gen FAST system all have the same issues  :0)

http://www.dragzine.com/news/a-fast-ez-efi-full-color-handheld-upgrade-that-youll-want-to-do/
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 03, 2016, 03:04:02 PM
OK.  Its that time again!.....  Yet another gremlin!  So I have come across this situation where I use the handheld to set up a new tune on the ecu.  After the car is up to temp, I get it perfect.  AF ratio at 13.5 roughly.  IAC between 15 to 20, etc  etc.  Then the next day, when I start the car, it seems as though it doesn't remember the tune and doesn't run well until its back up to temp.

So reading back over Jay's emails during the build, I came across a time where he mentioned that the car idles well on the dyno and was producing vacuum of between 9" and 11".

Then going through the FAST tech forum support page, it states that 10" of vacuum is basically a minimum to have the ecu perform correctly.......  Then there was a small sentence that got me.......  Due to the fact that these self learning ecu's need a minimum of vacuum, power assist brakes are not recommended.......  And I have power assist brakes!  I am guessing since the engine only produces basically the minimum vacuum sealed up, as soon as I reconnected the power assist brakes, the ecu doesn't have the minimum amount of vacuum to run correctly.......  Thoughts?  Anything?

It seems to make sense.  The article mentioned that the reason the ecu uses vacuum, is because its inversely related to engine load.  Suppose to have higher vacuum at idle (at which point the ecu lessens fuel)....  as vacuum decreases/ engine load increases....  it adds fuel!....  This is why at idle, the car always smells like fuel!

Basically, I think the car wont stop without the vacuum assist (as is)....  but hooked up, the car doesn't have high enough vacuum for the ecu to work correctly.

I'd love to hear anyones thoughts....  Thanks as always in advance  :0)

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on September 03, 2016, 04:16:18 PM
Jason -

Where are you picking off your vacuum signal?  Is the same port being used for the brake booster line?  If so, you're getting lots of artificial movement in the vacuum signal.

You want a vacuum signal far away from that booster.  Maybe a spot on the manifold near the plenum under the front throttle body?  Is there a plug there you can use?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 03, 2016, 04:27:12 PM
I actually wasn't pulling the vacuum signal.  I was going off the #'s Jay gave me.  Those were already the min the ECU needs.... So when I ported manifold vacuum to the brake booster, its now prob less.  FAST actually suggests not using their system on cars with vacuum assist brakes. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on September 03, 2016, 05:02:20 PM
I actually meant the location the ECU is getting its vacuum signal from.  That should not be anywhere near the booster line.

You want to plumb the ECU vacuum sensor up near the front carb plenum if possible...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 03, 2016, 06:09:27 PM
I think it pulls it from the front most throttle body.  Brake booster is pulling from the back of the manifold. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on September 03, 2016, 07:01:04 PM
Ok - Got it.  You're probably doing about as well as you can with that vacuum signal then. 

I wonder if there is another "hack" available out there to make the system work well with your vacuum level.  Not sure sitting here in this armchair!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: newfalconowner on September 03, 2016, 07:33:43 PM
i got my Fast efi kit off a guy that tried it, and he had 7in vaccum, so he sold it to me.. I haven't checked to see what my vac. is yet.

I find letting the O2 sensor heat up before starting it helps a lot in getting started for me by using the handheld to let me know, or it wont start right away.

My car has manual disk brakes, so I don't have any vaccum loss like that.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: newfalconowner on September 04, 2016, 07:56:58 AM
if that new handheld isn't working for you,, might as well send it my way lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on September 04, 2016, 08:05:49 AM
First, I think I'd put a vacuum gauge on there and see what you can see.  Get some numbers.

Second, advance the initial timing if you have to, and see if you can get the vacuum up (if you need to), then you can adjust total to make up for it.  You have a stout starter, but if not, you could even start it airplane style by hitting your button, then turning on the ignition.

Third, call FAST and see if it is possible to run in open loop at idle.  What this will do is essentially make the TBs an electronic carburetor and not require (or adjust for) any inputs, however, you will have to screw with settings because you lose the "learn" feature for idle when you do that.  Additionally, many of us use open loop for initial tip-in to make up for a bunch of overlap, then after a desired RPM, it goes into closed loop, same at cruise

Fourth, you could add a little valve lash (never did a SOHC, so not sure if it's possible) but it should be feasible, that may bring you a little more vacuum, although that doesn't bring much.

Finally, Jay can say more on what the chance of this is, but if you advanced the cams, you can likely gain significant vacuum at dile, but not sure how easy that is on an aftermarket SOHC

However, in the end I am quite surprised that it would need more vacuum than you have. Somehow, you likely just need to get into the system and tell it what it needs to know.  I know you spent dough on this new handheld, but you possibly could be getting into the realm of laptop tuning.  That's why I like a laptop so much better, I can long, tweak, sit at my computer think about it, try something and basically hit undo and redo 50 times a day if I wanted to

ON EDIT: I spent a very short time with the EZ-EFI instructions, and some questions

1 - Are you using it to control the ignition?
2 - There is quite a bit of tuning capability, but moreover, there is a ton of calibration capability.  TPS, IAC, etc, Have you done all of those?  We know you know of the TPS, but I saw a page that calibrated the IAC and throttle plates, that triggered my question.
3 - Just to clarify, do you think that your brake booster is bleeding vacuum when sitting there at cold start?  It shouldn't

Get a vacuum gauge on there, see what it says, this may be a moot point.  However, if it's only slightly low, adding a little initial and adjusting back to total may put your mind at ease.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 04, 2016, 12:42:29 PM
OK, went out today with a thought......  It cant be an issue with vacuum as it runs near perfect once it reaches operating temperature and the "AL" or adaptive learning kicks on!  It has to be something with the engine being cold.  So I started it, it started right up...  started the same rough idle at like 500-600 RPM, so I kept on the throttle for a few minutes just to get the temp up (kept it around 1000 rpm's).  Once I got up around 140 degrees, the AL feature turned on and the car idled at the 1000 rpm.  I wanted to take a video of each screen at idle, and also revving the engine.  I am not sure what I am looking for exactly, but I figured people more familiar with EFI's would see something (possible).  I was curious about "LOAD% " on the last screen.  is that supposed to hit the 90's when the throttle is pushed?

 Just to rehash....

Fuel pressure at the regulator is 43 PSI (without vacuum reference).  With the vacuum reference connected and the engine running, the gauge on the regulator shows about 40 PSI.

Dual Quad set-up so 8 fuel injectors

Accel Fuel set to -3 (this was due to rough acceleration in 1st and 2nd gear).  Putting to -3 smoothed it out.

RPM's at idle set to be 1000 RPM

I was told by the fast tech that ideally we are looking for 15-20 on the IAC at idle

still smells a little rich at idle..... especially during its warm up when idle wants to fall below 500 RPM and stall without me keeping on the throttle a little to get the engine warmed up (?)

 https://youtu.be/s_IpoCkkgNs

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on September 04, 2016, 02:18:49 PM
So, I read all over the net with other complaints, then dug through some of the instruction sheets.

I do not see a fast idle option, only an enrichment option for cold start.  If it does not have one, that's a real pain in the ass to put it lightly.

Could you send a link to instruction for the programmer you are using?  My hunch is, you got what you got if there isn't a cold start idle speed setting

I will say, you might be able to trick it a little by opening the throttle blades and recalibrating the TPS, then it "might" give a little more air when cold and the cold enrichment might help, but that's a pretty cheesy setup if you as me if it doesn't use the IAC as intended when cold

BTW, I see nothing crazy, would have to see how load is defined to give an opinion, but IAC looks good enough to me, if you want the number lower, open the throttles more, the IAC will open less as a result. 

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on September 04, 2016, 02:31:36 PM
BTW I found this regarding your LOAD question

LOAD%   Calculated load.  A comparison of the current manifold pressure vs. the ambient atmospheric  pressure.    Unlike  the  reading  from  the  MAP  sensor  –  which  is  affected  by  altitude  –  Load  should  always   be  consistent.    That  is,  wide  open  throttle  should  ways  be  around  100%   regardless  of  altitude  and  ambient atmospheric pressure.

I figured it was a vacuum reading, that won't tell you much until you have a load against the engine.

As far as the IAC, I think you are about there.  It's idling well at temp and the instructions say "It’s range is from 5 to 180.  Generally, this will be around 20 idling out of gear with a fully warmed up engine."

I am amazed they didn't add a field for an additive RPM when cold.  (ie 250 rpm when below 140)  Every thing I have tuned has had something like that.  They already have the ability to do that because if I understand it correctly, it has an input for A/C that when energized raises the idle slightly.  Amazing they didn't put a cold fast idle setting in
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 04, 2016, 03:41:03 PM
Hi Ross.  Thanks.  Yea, no such luck.  They have other models ( XFI and Sportsman) which I think are a lot more configurable.  EZ efi doesnt have many options.  The new handheld should give me a few more options, but i think its just adding and pulling fuel. Not adding rpm's at cold start ( unfortunately).

I guess its good for now  lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on September 04, 2016, 05:26:28 PM
Something I read in the instructions was that it "raised the a little bit when cold"

I don't know how much, but it's odd that yours is lowering the idle when cold.

Are you controlling timing with the FAST setup?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 04, 2016, 07:32:48 PM
Something I read in the instructions was that it "raised the a little bit when cold"

I don't know how much, but it's odd that yours is lowering the idle when cold.

Are you controlling timing with the FAST setup?

Hey Ross.  No the EZ version (which I have) does not allow for control of timing.  :0(
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: newfalconowner on September 04, 2016, 07:40:12 PM
wander if you can use a carb idle solenoid thingy and wire it to the a/c part of the ecu?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 04, 2016, 07:50:41 PM
OK guys.  Not a good day.

Got back from another drive as I am trying to give the EFI computer time and inputs to learn.  Going up through the gears, down shifting, Quick acceleration, Cruising in gear, etc.  On my way back home, I heard a "whizzing noise" from the transmission.  It was only there when the car was in gear, and went away when the clutch was depressed.  So I decided to go very slowly home and see what  this new issue was.

Car back in the garage and back up on Jack stands....  First issue is another puddle of oil under the car.  So this time, with flashlight in hand, started the search.

The bottom of the oil pan had a coating, as well as a drop or 2 on the scatter shield.  There was oil residue on 2 or 3 of the Main cross bolts as well as on the oil filter adapter (which I was going to tighten up a little on the first oil change as you can not access the bolts with the filter attached.

Shined the light up on the back of the heads as well as the back of the block and couldn't see anything (from what I could see).  not dripping from one place as much as it seemed to be "spraying" for lack of a better word, which makes it had to track down unless the car is running and I am under it with the light?  Wiped it all back down as well as tightened the oil plugs on the pan.  Will have to figure this out while its running.

Second and most pressing issue was not the "whizzing" noise coming from the transmission.  With the light shining into the bell housing, the throw out bearing seemed to be in good shape and seemed to be right where it should be (just touching the tips of the pressure plate fingers (just touching).  I was able to put my fingers in there and turn the bearing freely so I know its not pressing against the fingers when the clutch is not being pressed....

Then I saw it (and luckily I made it home without breaking anything).  There is a locator stud that screws into the spacer plate on the transmission.  This is the stud that locates the throw out bearing and keeps it from spinning.  Somehow, it started to unscrew!  and the tip of it was just starting to contact the fingers when the car was in gear.  When I pressed the clutch, the fingers got pressed in and then the stud no longer made contact .  This is why the whizzing noise went away when I pressed the clutch.  I (for the life of me) don't know how it started to unscrew, but it would now seem that the transmission needs to come back off so I can screw it back down and see if I cant wire it somehow to prevent it from coming lose again?

Either way, I huge pain, but luckily caught in time.

As for the oil leak(s), my hope is that it is something very minor that you can not see unless the system is under pressure. Tightening the valve covers seemed to stop the leak for a day (but I was just checking it at just idling in the driveway and not with the oil pressure very high)  I am not sure......


Its right about now I wish I had a car lift  LOL. 

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: newfalconowner on September 04, 2016, 08:10:25 PM
sorry to hear your having some bad luck. stay positive and things will come together.. I think I will start to take some of the bad luck from you,, at least I hope I am,, my car lately has been giving me fits and it seems to be never ending..

We will win this,,
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 04, 2016, 08:49:53 PM
Yes Sir!  Lol  its just another issue to beat.  Like it was said earlier,  after all thesmall issues are fixed, they will be super reliable cars.  Also, you will know them inside and out!  We'll eventually get it!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: rowdy58ford on September 05, 2016, 08:44:28 AM
Just a heads up on Keith C C&C machining on coon heads he did my heads and built the motor put on dyno and water blew out of spark plug holes he cut the intake short side and they leaked said send back and  did nothing so my advice is to be sure you get the heads pressure checked and save some time and money!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 06, 2016, 01:07:30 PM
OK just off the phone with RAM Hydraulics by way of Jegs.  I wanted to get a replacement stud (was hoping for a replacement with at least some way to put a wrench on it if it ever started coming lose again)..... No Luck.  I was told that the smooth dowel pin type stud (which only places the bearing and stoops it from spinning after coming into contact with the clutch fingers) is the only one that can be used.  I explained that I followed the instructions and hand tightened it (no thread locker as it didn't state it needed it in the directions).  I also explained that after only 3 drives around the neighborhood, the locator-dowel pin- stud had slowly started to unscrew and work its way toward the spinning pressure plate fingers!

They are going to send me out a replacement dowel stud free of charge, but this time he suggested thread locker.  He also suggested using a pair of pliers or channel locks to get it as tight as I can.  He said it was going to gouge and scar up the dowel, but it should stop it (in combo with Loctite) from ever coming loose again.

Unfortunately, transmission has to come out..... After this fix, I am going to take the car on a 50-60 mile spin around the city to let the EFI learn and really get dialed in.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Tboggus on September 07, 2016, 08:20:27 AM
Jason, any way to have some flats machined into the dowel to use a wrench on?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jmlay on September 07, 2016, 10:48:26 AM
Cut a slot in the end to use a large flat blade screwdriver is also an option.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 07, 2016, 03:53:43 PM
Good Idea.  Would have been nice if they would have made it so you could tighten it with an allen key or something.  All the others I have seen have a nut built in near the threads.  This one from RAM is just a smooth tube with threads on it.  Its the HD version of this bearing too, so you would think people will be throwing all kinds of abuse at it.  In the end, I am just grateful it didn't make it into the pressure plate.  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 12, 2016, 06:56:42 AM
Well.... This weekend was eventful.  It was time to get that darn transmission out for like the 4th or 5th time and replace the locator stud for the hydraulic throw out bearing.  Started by removing the X pipe.  From there, the Driveshaft needed to be removed.  I noticed that 2 of the bolts holding the end caps of the driveshaft were easier to untighten than the other 2.  These already had lock washers on them, but a mental note was made to add Loctite when re-assembling (Adding Loctite is going to be a re-occurring theme as we work through this post).
Once the driveshaft was removed, I placed a clear bag over the output hole on the transmission and then wrapped rubber bands around it to catch any trans fluid from dripping out.  Once I unbolted the trans cross member, I was able to remove all 8 bolts (with the wifes help again) from the transmission.  Again, I noticed that even though all 8 of these bolts were torqued in place (40 ft lbs or so) last time, 3 or 4 of them were easier to unbolt than the others...... another mental note for Loctite.

Finally I put the trans jack under it and wrapped a wratchet strap around it for good measure (which ended up really helping).  After a little "lower and back up"... over and over, I had it out.  I didn't even bother pulling it out from under the car. I completed surgery right then and there.

From a visual inspection, I got lucky.  The stud had just began to work itself loose and in doing so, had just started to "kiss" the pressure plate fingers.  There was no damage, but you could see a faint outline of where it had grazed them.  Upon comparison of the old stud to the replacement, they were the same size, but apparently the heat of just lightly touching the spinning fingers along with me pushing the clutch slightly bent the old stud!  Crazy.  Luckily the threaded hole in the spacer plate was in perfect condition.  I thoroughly cleaned the new stud as well as the threaded hole in the spacer plate.  Then, once dried, I applied a liberal amount of blue Loctite and screwed it into place.  For good measure, I took a pair of channel locks and a rubber dish glove (to somewhat protect the stud and also because they are a weird dry-sticky type of rubber that grips really well), and was able to get almost another full turn to a turn and a half out of it.  definitely not coming loose!  It says dries in 10 minutes and fully cures in 24 hours, but I am giving it one full week.

From this point, it was just reinstalling everything in the reverse order, but this time with LOCTITE!  LOL.  I put Loctite on all 8 transmission bolts (in addition to the lock washers) as well as  Loctite on the 4 saddle bolts on the yolk side of the driveshaft.

While under the car (after soaking up the success of a fun morning), I started to wipe the underside clean.  With the car up on the jackstands, I plan to run it for a while and then crawl under it to find the oil leak visually.  Its weird because the drivers side seems to be shiny with a sheen of oil, and I cant see just one area it might be coming from.  I still think it may be coming from the oil filter adapter and "misting" out, but I will find out this coming weekend.  While under the car wiping everything clean with a rag, I started to feel around in the areas I could not see........

Wouldn't you believe it, there was a bolt missing out of each header flange!  I couldn't believe it.  All the other bolts are tight as could be (couldn't tighten them up at all).  Its weird because there is no way to see these 2 missing bolts.  They are in the middle of the header flange and the only way I knew they were missing was feeling around.  Either way, I grabbed 2 more bolts with lock washers and slowly(and I mean 1/16" at a time) went to tightening them.  It literally took an hour or so to install these 2 bolts, but got them as tight as humanly possible for not being able to see them (and barely being able to turn a wrench on them.

Next weekend I am going to plug in the new upgraded handheld (which gives me access to modify a few more fuel features on the EFI) and take it back out for a drive!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on September 12, 2016, 10:58:53 AM
Glad to see you decided to use some Loctite, but there seems to be a trend here of loose bolts.  They just HAVE to be tight, no matter how hard it is to do, or how long it takes.  If it sounds like I am scolding LOL it's because I am! 

Your car is too fast, too nice, and too expensive to have bolts loosening up.  If you are torqueing these bolts, better have your torque wrench checked.  If you are not, better start working out!  LOL

Seriously though, I have never had a bell housing bolt, a tranny bolt, or any of the header bolts loosen up significantly, they were likely too loose to begin with and I have never had to use Loctite.  I know you asked about torque, so my guess is your wrench is inaccurate.

Now, enough nagging.  A technique with header bolts...get some mechanics gloves and wear a thermal undershirt (long sleeve).  Get every good wrench you can find, as well as 1/4 inch and 3/18 inch drive ratchets, so you have a wide range of tools to attack.  Then get the engine hot, shut it down and tighten all the bolts.  It'll be a beeyatch...but you tighten them hot, they'll stay there.

I recommend you go from front to back and check your work, to include suspension/K frame stuff.  That car is too cool, hate to see it, or you, end up hurt.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 12, 2016, 01:07:58 PM
Thanks Ross.  Yea, super weird.  Not only did I torque everything last time, but afterwards, I went back around and re-torqued since I know by the time you get to the last bolt, a few of them might be off a little (not as tight as they should be).  So I know for a fact that last time, I torqued the trans to bellhousing bolts to like 40 Ft Lbs (with lock washers on them).  Then I went around 1 more time re-torqued at the same 40 Ft Lbs just to be sure.

This time when I went to take them out, about 3 or 4 of them were easier to loosen than the others.  Not loose by any means, but didn't have to put the same monkey paw on the wrench to get them off.  Same with the drive shaft to rear yolk bolts.  This time....... liberal amounts of Loctite.

As for the header bolts, I have checked the bolts after a few heat cycles, and they are still tight!  I couldn't tighten any of them anymore.  The 1 on each side that was missing is a mystery.  I find it hard to believe that exactly the same bolt location on each side fell out at exactly the same time.  I am thinking maybe I just couldn't (and still can't) see these bolt locations so I must have forgotten to install them?  That seems more plausible  lol.  Anyway, I wrenched down on those 2 as well this time and will (as you said) get them hot again and see if I can tighten them all a little more that way.

Getting close....  ERRR.... Again  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on September 12, 2016, 05:34:17 PM
Thanks Ross.  Yea, super weird.  Not only did I torque everything last time, but afterwards, I went back around and re-torqued since I know by the time you get to the last bolt, a few of them might be off a little (not as tight as they should be).  So I know for a fact that last time, I torqued the trans to bellhousing bolts to like 40 Ft Lbs (with lock washers on them).  Then I went around 1 more time re-torqued at the same 40 Ft Lbs just to be sure.

This time when I went to take them out, about 3 or 4 of them were easier to loosen than the others.  Not loose by any means, but didn't have to put the same monkey paw on the wrench to get them off.  Same with the drive shaft to rear yolk bolts.  This time....... liberal amounts of Loctite.

As for the header bolts, I have checked the bolts after a few heat cycles, and they are still tight!  I couldn't tighten any of them anymore.  The 1 on each side that was missing is a mystery.  I find it hard to believe that exactly the same bolt location on each side fell out at exactly the same time.  I am thinking maybe I just couldn't (and still can't) see these bolt locations so I must have forgotten to install them?  That seems more plausible  lol.  Anyway, I wrenched down on those 2 as well this time and will (as you said) get them hot again and see if I can tighten them all a little more that way.

Getting close....  ERRR.... Again  :0)

Hang in there, I thought my black stroker EFI Mustang was cool, yours is a whole level (or two) cooler.  You'll get there!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 18, 2016, 08:01:13 PM
OK gentlemen, another update.  I finally was able to get the upgraded FAST EZ EFI "Fuel" version handheld installed.  This is a touchscreen handheld that mounts on the windshield much like a Garmin Nuvi.  This upgrade also allows me the ability to alter a few more fuel options.  I now am able to adjust cranking fuel, accel fuel and cold start fuel.  Not really sure what they need to be adjusted to, but I will get there I am sure.

2nd update is the oil leak.  I am 100% sure that the oil is leaking from the back side of the block.  after a complete wipe down, I let the engine run (through the set up procedure of the handheld).  After shutting it off, I rolled back under and saw that the oil is leaking down the backing plate to the bell housing.  I can see a little glistening of oil between the backing plate and the back of the oil pan.  I wanted to run this past you all on here before any action.  What are the chances of various places for the leak?  I was thinking maybe just the back of the oil pan is leaking?  Is it possible an oil galley on the back of the block (a whole lot harder and more time consuming)....  I did check the back of the block on the top end (i.e. where Jay mentioned on the back of the intake and also where the heads meet the block) and both were dry.  I was just going to crank down on the oil pan bolts a little more, but again wanted to check with you all before doing so.

Lastly, is the power steering.  I don't have I needed to install the pump so that the rack was closed to dirt and such, but I never put a belt on the old FE pump (and I believe the PSI is too great for the modern rack).  Also, the stock rack has been dripping P/S fluid as well as the fact that I get tire wobble at 40 MPH and up.  After a little investigation, I see that my inner and outer tie rods are both bad (really bad).  The guy I purchased this car from was using it as a daily driver from Miami to Boca every day....  so expected ware.  Rather than trying to fix the leak, replace the inner and outer tie rods, and also fabricate a bracket for the OEM pump (which mounts in the worst possible way), I purchased a flaming rover manual rack for the 05-09 Mustang and also a pair of Moog outer tie rod ends.  This seemed to be a god send in my mind.  Now I don't have to have a power steering pump, reservoir, P/S lines, nor do I have to install the inner tie rods.  I will keep the old hydraulic rack (just for the future), but this manual rack is supposed to just bolt up in the stock location.  This will now afford me the ability to get up past 40 MPH so I can go have the car aligned!

So really my only issue is the oil leak!  With over 9 quarts of oil in this engine, I am wondering how probable just oil pan bolts loosening would be?  I would assume when Jay ran this engine on the Dyno, that if it were an oil galley plug on the rear of the block, it would have come to light then.  Is there a torque spec for the oil pan bolts?  If so, I can check to make sure that none of the ones on the rear have loosened up? 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on September 18, 2016, 08:15:56 PM
Jason -

You will get lots of steering slop if you run a hydraulic rack with no fluid pressure to it.  The internal valves/ plungers that direct pressure assist are empty and will go full travel before the rack moves.  (With fluid pressure they only move a tiny bit...)  I bet it's quite exciting to drive the car that way  :o

The manual rack (and new tie rod ball joints) will fix this, of course, but you're going to be building a lot of arm strength trying to park that thing!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on September 18, 2016, 08:41:52 PM
Jason, I would definitely tighten up the oil pan bolts.  There are two gaskets in there, between the windage tray and the block and the windage tray and the pan.  I used sealer on the gaskets but sometimes the gaskets shrink a little and then a leak can develop.

I don't think you need to worry about  the plugs coming out of the back, since they are screw-in plugs.

Do you have a good breather on the engine?  If you have crankcase pressure building up due to an insufficient breather you can force oil out past the rear main seal also.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 19, 2016, 06:37:06 AM
Hi Jay.  OK I will snug them down.  The engine has the 2 breathers on either side the valve covers.  They are the 60's era metal caps with the holes under the cap to vent.  Not sure if it needs something additional?

Thanks again!!!   :0)  This car is already a lot of fun  lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on September 19, 2016, 11:37:05 AM
If the holes in those metal caps are really small, kind of like a couple of punch outs, that could be a problem.  Some "breathers" don't really breathe all that well...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 19, 2016, 01:00:22 PM
yea its the metal cap with a couple of holes "Punched" into the under side.  I will pick up some others that are filter filament all around.  Also I will give each of the oil pan studs a little snugging up.  Hopefully between those items and the new manual steering rack, it will stop the "drippings"  lol

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on September 19, 2016, 09:29:29 PM
Ever consider a PCV?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 20, 2016, 08:27:26 AM
Hey Ross,

After your post, I was trying to look into this.  Is it literally just a valve that fits into the valve cover (to vent crank case gas) and then a hose runs to the intake manifold (to re-cycle the scavenged gas)?  Definitely possible (maybe a PCV valve on one valve cover and a breather on the other)?

Looks like these are usually used in conjunction with an oil separator?  thoughts?  It looks like you get just pick up a PCV valve at the local auto parts store, but then one of the breather tubes will need to be pulled out and a rubber grommet installed so the PCV valve pops in?

I wonder about the effect on manifold vacuum (since the PCV valve plugs into the intake manifold) and how that will affect the EFI computer (as it works based off of vacuum)?

Good Suggestion  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 20, 2016, 03:11:37 PM
OK so I found some PCV valves that are push in (and actually match the same stype of the oil filler tubes/ breather cap's I have on there now.  I found one that's a Push in PCV valve that will fit the hole of the tall oil filler tubes on the Cammer valve covers.  I think that the oil filler tubes are pretty tall, and thus not much if any oil will get sucked out???? (Not really sure).  Possibly there wont be a need for an oil catch can?

Also, would 1 PCV valve feeding into a vacuum port on the throttle body be enough to stop the crankcase pressure from building?  I guess I am looking at the size of the PCV valves and wasn't sure if it can keep up with the pressure (or possibly I need 2 PCV valves (both push on) and I can install one in each tall oil filler tube.......  then I can T them into the larger vacuum port on the throttle body?

Thoughts?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on September 20, 2016, 06:31:37 PM
You generally want one PCV valve pulling from one rocker cover, with fresh make-up air entering from the other rocker cover.  There needs to be some type of baffle under the PCV valve to keep it from sucking oil. 

Pulling fresh air through the engine will keep your oil a lot cleaner!  It's worth it if you can calibrate the EFI to work.  (It may be as simple as adjusting the plate on that one throttle body a bit...)  The oil baffle may be the hardest part of it though.

- Bill
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on September 20, 2016, 07:35:11 PM
You generally want one PCV valve pulling from one rocker cover, with fresh make-up air entering from the other rocker cover.  There needs to be some type of baffle under the PCV valve to keep it from sucking oil. 

Pulling fresh air through the engine will keep your oil a lot cleaner!  It's worth it if you can calibrate the EFI to work.  (It may be as simple as adjusting the plate on that one throttle body a bit...)  The oil baffle may be the hardest part of it though.

- Bill

Concur completely, and I cannot imagine it will even make a significant difference in the tune. However, it will pull moisture that causes acids out of the oil.  Needs to be baffled though.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on September 20, 2016, 07:38:49 PM
OK so I found some PCV valves that are push in (and actually match the same stype of the oil filler tubes/ breather cap's I have on there now.  I found one that's a Push in PCV valve that will fit the hole of the tall oil filler tubes on the Cammer valve covers.  I think that the oil filler tubes are pretty tall, and thus not much if any oil will get sucked out???? (Not really sure).  Possibly there wont be a need for an oil catch can?

Also, would 1 PCV valve feeding into a vacuum port on the throttle body be enough to stop the crankcase pressure from building?  I guess I am looking at the size of the PCV valves and wasn't sure if it can keep up with the pressure (or possibly I need 2 PCV valves (both push on) and I can install one in each tall oil filler tube.......  then I can T them into the larger vacuum port on the throttle body?

Get a '69-'70 Boss 302 PCV valve as it's rated as one of the lowest flow pieces around.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbs=vw:l,mr:1,price:1,ppr_max:25&tbm=shop&q=boss+302+PCV+valve

A big no to two valves: As previously noted, only one PCV valve in one breather. The other breather is the fresh air source.

All PCV valves are rated but few are stamped as such and even more oddly, getting a hold of the actual ratings is damn near impossible. Keep in mind one can also limit the flow later if need be buy sticking a short chunk of aluminum rod stock in the rubber hose after drilling say a .090 or .080 hole in the rod stock. 

If those tall breathers have a deflector plate at the bottom (i.e. valvetrain side) you can stick some SS scubber pad material (yes, it's called Choreboy, the stuff one uses by the kitchen sink) down the tube to act as a mist screen. It does work, just don't stick in too much. True SS steel wool works too but DO NOT use regular steel wool as it does rust due to condensation!


Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on September 21, 2016, 05:46:18 AM
To be honest with you guys, I never even look at PCV flow.  I go to the local parts store, grab the first I see with a 3/8 90 degree end and slip it in the baffled valve cover

Haven't had a carb tuning issue, and EFI certainly can compensate.  Not saying there aren't times that it could be fussy, otherwise there wouldn't be so many options, but I just haven't seen it in my street builds.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 21, 2016, 08:49:10 AM
Hey Guys,

I have seen that some people will thread a hose barb into the air cleaner and just have the crankcase vent through the PCV valve into the air cleaner (above the throttle bodies).  Is this possible?  or do you need to be plumbed up directly to a vacuum port on the throttle body (Carb)?  I think if there was even the slightest chance of the EFI not liking the PCV , letting it vent into the air cleaner would be a good option.  Not sure how much vacuum is needed for the PCV as well as how much vacuum is inside the air cleaner  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on September 21, 2016, 09:53:47 AM
The PCV must have full manifold vacuum to work.  Plumbing a line just to the air cleaner is no different from the plain breather cap you have now.

The vacuum forcibly draws out the crankcase blowby gases, and pulls in fresh air from the opposite side of the engine. 

I don't see the PCV being much different from the brake booster, as far as EFI tuning goes.  I agree with Ross that it should be no big deal.  The benefits make it so worthwhile.  I have used PCV on all of my stuff.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 21, 2016, 11:45:03 AM
Awesome.  I am going to measure the diameter of the breather tubes when I get home and order the set ( breather and PVC)from Jegs.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on September 21, 2016, 12:04:09 PM
Let me add to that

In what I call a "semi-closed" system, you would have

1- A PCV connected to a full time (manifold) vacuum source that would evacuate during idle and part throttle
2- A second tube, usually a filtered breather tube that is an air source at light throttle, and when vacuum is at zero, could relieve pressure into the air cleaner

For normal street/hot rod systems you have #1, but number 2 is just an open breather.

Keep in mind, the "semi-closed" system really is a benefit for emissions as any blowby, in any case, gets reintroduced into the system.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 21, 2016, 03:26:15 PM
Thanks Ross,

I guess one last question (since it seems like its the best solution)....  Given the type of engine this is, and the fact it has (I believe) 12:1 Compression on 93 octane, I was reading a little online (Yeah I know... Dangerous) and there was concern that PCV valves feeding blow-by gasses back into the intake to be re-burnt can cause detonation on high compression engines.  Is this valid?  Just curious  :0)  I tried looking for pictures of other Cammer engines to see if they used a PCV valve anywhere, but could not find any.  The only thing you come across sometimes is the vacuum pump (like on Jays drag car).  Most of the others have between 2 and 3 breather tubes with the "old -timey" breather caps on them like I have.  lol  Never put into production cars, so I guess it was never a thought.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on September 22, 2016, 07:32:39 AM
Thanks Ross,

I guess one last question (since it seems like its the best solution)....  Given the type of engine this is, and the fact it has (I believe) 12:1 Compression on 93 octane, I was reading a little online (Yeah I know... Dangerous) and there was concern that PCV valves feeding blow-by gasses back into the intake to be re-burnt can cause detonation on high compression engines.  Is this valid?  Just curious  :0) 

That is indeed a valid concern, and that is why I never run a PCV valve; I have had that exact experience.  But for the cost, I'd give one a try and see if its workable on your engine.  You can always pull it back off - Jay
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 22, 2016, 08:46:57 AM
Got a nice matching PCV and breather set from Jegs last night.  Will be here tomorrow  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on September 22, 2016, 09:21:57 AM
I only run 10.7:1 with a DCR of 8.33 and a tight quench in my Mustang, the truck is 10.0 with a DCR of 8.2 and a bit looser quench.  Neither of them have an issue and every street engine I build gets a PCV.  Granted, I have not had the opportunity to build 12:1 street engines though :) FWIW less than 1000 miles on the truck engine, but the Mustang has been together, both in carb'd form and EFI since late 2006 and is as clean inside as it every has been.  It's got just a basic set of Mahle moly rings with a low tension oil ring set in it too

Keep in mind, the PCV certainly can pull vapor in, but PCV vacuum is high at light load, and low at high load, and near zero at WOT. So really the most vapor flow would be during the conditions least likely for detonation.

In fact, unless you have a blow-by problem or a lack of baffles, I have not even seen evidence of oil in the intake plenum, now if you have a blow by issue, then that needs to be addressed more than the PCV IMHO. 

Of course, as Jay said, it's cheap and easily undone too, so worst case, take it back off.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on September 22, 2016, 10:27:40 AM
One alternativ is the....i think moroso
Vacu-pan the are called. Two valves in
The header collectors with a hose to the
Valve covers
Sorry saw that it wont work with mufflers
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: e philpott on September 22, 2016, 01:01:53 PM
One alternativ is the....i think moroso
Vacu-pan the are called. Two valves in
The header collectors with a hose to the
Valve covers
Sorry saw that it wont work with mufflers

I've run that Moroso set up for 15 years with mufflers no problems and it works , you do have to check the valves on occasion because they can blow/wear out , I've replaced my check valves probably three times over the years ....
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 22, 2016, 01:17:53 PM
Maybe depending on your Back pressure with mufflers vs without?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 22, 2016, 02:13:32 PM
Hey Guys.  Had another thought.  If the reason for detonation is that the PCV valve lowers the octane rating on the 93 Octane Premium, I think I have an answer.

Sunoco Gas stations (Some of them) sell Race fuel!  There are 3 near my house that sell a product called "260 GT"  It looks like its 104 Octane.  If I used this (assuming I am correct on the cause of detonation), perhaps the octane rating will still be high enough?

Again this is all theoretical because I haven't even hooked up the PCV valve yet  LOL

Here is a link to the Gas stations info sheet on the 260 GT stuff:

http://www.sunocoracefuels.com/fuel/260-gt-plus






 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on September 22, 2016, 02:47:16 PM
One alternativ is the....i think moroso
Vacu-pan the are called. Two valves in
The header collectors with a hose to the
Valve covers
Sorry saw that it wont work with mufflers

I've run that Moroso set up for 15 years with mufflers no problems and it works , you do have to check the valves on occasion because they can blow/wear out , I've replaced my check valves probably three times over the years ....

Volvo used valves like that for AIR in the exhaust
manifold without any smogpump so it Will probably
work even better with headers
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on September 22, 2016, 03:00:21 PM
Hey Guys.  Had another thought.  If the reason for detonation is that the PCV valve lowers the octane rating on the 93 Octane Premium, I think I have an answer.

Sunoco Gas stations (Some of them) sell Race fuel!  There are 3 near my house that sell a product called "260 GT"  It looks like its 104 Octane.  If I used this (assuming I am correct on the cause of detonation), perhaps the octane rating will still be high enough?

Again this is all theoretical because I haven't even hooked up the PCV valve yet  LOL

Here is a link to the Gas stations info sheet on the 260 GT stuff:

http://www.sunocoracefuels.com/fuel/260-gt-plus

Running fuel with extra octane is likely good anyway, but I really don't think you will need to worry about it. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 24, 2016, 04:37:39 PM
Ok guys.  Took all day, but power steering rack is out, power steering cooler, power steering lines, pump and resevoir.... All out.  I made sure not to move the steering wheel once all was detached.  New flaming river manual rack in.  Installed new MOOG tie rod ends ( got it close to the steering wheel being straight when tires are straight).  Installed new breather on passanger side and new PCV cap on drivers side.  Still need to run the vacuum line and just snug up each oil pan bolts.  Almost ready to be let back down on its wheels!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on September 25, 2016, 05:36:00 AM
Ok guys.  Took all day, but power steering rack is out, power steering cooler, power steering lines, pump and resevoir.... All out.  I made sure not to move the steering wheel once all was detached.  New flaming river manual rack in.  Installed new MOOG tie rod ends ( got it close to the steering wheel being straight when tires are straight).  Installed new breather on passanger side and new PCV cap on drivers side.  Still need to run the vacuum line and just snug up each oil pan bolts.  Almost ready to be let back down on its wheels!

Looking forward to the results!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 28, 2016, 07:51:44 AM
Small update.

OK, I did a rough alignment and the wheels are (to the naked eye) pretty straight in the front.  Of course its going to need a professional alignment.

I managed to get the PCV cap into the breather tube, and the matching breather cap into the passenger tube (which needed to be shortened a little more to make room for this new cap.  A length of 3/8" vacuum hose is run from the barb on the PCV cap to the larger port on the back of the throttle body (this was the original port I had connected to the vacuum assist brakes before I connected it to a barb on the back of the intake manifold).

I have been going under the car with a light each night to check for possible places the oil leaks have come from.  After wiping down the whole underside a few weeks ago, the only place I saw a shimmer of oil was where the oil pan butts up against the backing plate of the bell housing.  I was able to see that there was also a "line" of oil that came down the back of the scatter shield and was dripping off of the bottom of the bell housing.  I gave that all a wipe down and made a mental note (and a post on here earlier) about it.  Then last night I crawled back under the car to take another look (and wasn't expecting much as the car had not run since the wipe down).  I saw another drop of oil on the bottom of the bell housing ready to drip onto a tiny spot on the floor where it looks like 2 or 3 other drops fell.  The back of the backing plate is still clean and dry as is the other areas I wiped down.  I am guessing that the weak point that oil was pushing through because of pressure was the rear main seal?  This would explain why the oil is still coning out between the bell housing and the backing plate.  The most I can do is again make sure I snug up the oil pan bolts (if they need snugging) and hope the PCV valve and new breather lessens the crankcase pressure so the rear seal wont drip.  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on September 28, 2016, 01:39:31 PM
It could be the rear main or the side seals for the rear main bearing cap.  I didn't see any leaks on the dyno there, but you never know.  Also it is worth mentioning that any leak at the back of the engine (intake manifold to block, valve covers, etc.) can drip down the back and make it looks like a rear seal leak.  I know you've checked there, but since you've wiped everything down and new oil has shown up, likely you had some residual oil trapped between the block and backing plate or backing plate and bellhousing, and it just took a while to drain down to the bottom.

By the way, you're not using synthetic oil, are you?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: sixty9cobra on September 28, 2016, 03:26:19 PM
If your thinking about using high octane fuel just make sure it is unleaded, lead will kill your O2 sensor in no time.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 28, 2016, 06:32:10 PM
Hey Jay.  Thanks.  The more I think about it, the more I think its prob the main seal ( rear or possibly sides)  It probably happened when I downshifted  on my first or second run as the dripping does not occur when its at idle.  You start to notice the dripping after a drive.  It hopefully will be fixed now with better breather and PCV valve. 

Also, no on the oil.  I remember you said conventional was better forring seal, so i put 9 quarts of 10W 30 conventional oil 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on September 29, 2016, 11:31:22 AM
Just as a side conversation, I have been thinking about my new found ability to alter fuel ratios before the computer goes into learning mode (reaches operating temperature).  I read online that engines with larger valve overlaps do better on a leaner air/fuel ratio.  Fortunately, with the new handheld, I have the ability to alter cold start fuel + or -.  I think I accurately calculated the valve overlap of these comp cams (63 degrees of overlap).  I have been trying to find some sort of "rough" calculation (more of a starting point actually) for Air fuel ratios on an engine with this amount of overlap for a cold start.  Again, once the car reaches operating temps and the Adaptive learning kicks in, the computer adjusts everything and the car runs beautifully.

I think idle Air/Fuel on this car is 13.5:1 (would have to double check), but since it seems to stumble and stall out at a cold start and not get to 1000 rpm. I wanted to start thinking about adjusting the ratio to get at least a clean idle before my roadtrip to allow the computer to learn.  :0)  (Hopefully this weekend)

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 02, 2016, 09:49:26 AM
Hey Guys.  Out on the first cruise.  Getting a popping noise ( mini backgire) while holding cruising speed.  Any ideas?  Target AF ratio holds at the settings  around 13.5  14 when I throttle up.  Not sure what to do and dont want to break anything

Parked at a tire kingdom right now.  Help  lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 02, 2016, 11:13:19 AM
Target A/F should be 12.5-13 when you are significantly accelerating on the throttle.  Popping could be a lean condition.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 02, 2016, 12:25:00 PM
Checked settings: currently idle is 13.5

Cruise is 14.0

WOT is 12.8

These are the current settings in the ECU

Should I adjust anything?  Also i can now alter Accel fuel  currently at -2  ?

I took this video really quick on the way home from the alignment shop.  Toward the end, you can see all the values fairly clearly.  Thoughts?

http://youtu.be/tL0XVt9bh-g

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 02, 2016, 02:38:50 PM
Well a pop in the exhaust could be a lean misfire, could be a rich condition firing in the exhaust, could be a header leak, could be an ignition issue.

If you think it is EFI related, adjust your cruse target to 13.5, see what it does.  Then 14.5, see what it does, if no change either way, it's not the tune, if worse one way and better another than it tells you what to do next.  However, if you do consider going leaner than 14.5 on cruise, be careful

Sounded real nice to me though, I didn't hear the popping and it didn't look too lean.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 02, 2016, 03:21:16 PM
Hey Ross.  I dont know why, but I have accel fuel at -2.  Maybe I should adjust this feature first?  Or should I start with the targets first?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on October 02, 2016, 03:43:34 PM
+1 on the lean misfire.  It matches the symptoms you're describing - light load cruise stumbling / popping.  You should notice it too when you coast down in gear with the throttle closed.

I don't know if bumping your accel fuel will affect the steady-state map.  It shouldn't, but a lot of these EFI systems have strange interactions in the settings.

Looks like you need to fatten it up a bit in the light load mid-rpm range of the map.  The popping won'[t hurt anything in the meantime...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 02, 2016, 04:06:52 PM
I agree with Bill, unless you are bogging like a bad accel pump, I'd be looking at cruise mixture not accel fuel

Remember, the O2 sensor reads at best a bank of cylinders or sometimes all 8, so even though you may have 14.0 as a target, individual cylinders could be leaner.  It's easy enough to try changing cruise ratio to 13.8 and see what it does

Keep in mind, what you see may not be the actual mixture, O2 sensors can be funky. Additionally, if there is any alcohol in the mix, stoich values change, so E10 likes .6 lower or so at 14.1, and the more corn squeezins in the mix, the richer you need to command.  Just use the number as a starting point to return to if something doesn't work

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 02, 2016, 04:09:16 PM
Just full disclosure, it pops and hessitates to when I throttle up ( in 4 th and 5th gear) 
Might need to adjust WOT too?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 02, 2016, 04:11:40 PM
If you floor it and it bogs, then backfires, then you likely need to increase your acceleration fuel.  If it's always got some sort of pop or backfire in different degrees, I would be looking at the ignition (cap, rotor, wires, plugs)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 02, 2016, 04:14:17 PM
They are more likestumbles and heasitations, small pops.... not really backfires.  It feels like not enough gas ( not smoking at all and doesnt really smell like unburnt fuel.

What should I setthe targets to ( all) as a starting point?  Sorry for all the questions
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 02, 2016, 04:18:34 PM
Make one change at a time from where you are, and write down exactly where you are now and what you do for each change

If it were mine, I would do the cruise first, just drive it steady and go .5 richer (13.5)  than where it is now.  If at 13.5 it runs well, go to 13.7, then try again

When done and happy with steady cruise, do your acceleration fuel.  Don't do two steps at a time, and always write down what you did.

Also, always do your tests at full operating temp. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 02, 2016, 04:22:29 PM
Ok perfect!  Thanks again.  Exciting.  Got it aligned today.  Rides smooth.  Stays cool 185 degrees while cruising.  No rattles or glitches.  Just the Fuel issues.  I have cars and coffee this weekend about 10 miles away.  Might take it over just for some giggles  LOL  Also gives me a chance to test these fuel changes one at a time
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 03, 2016, 11:23:39 AM
Hey Guys,

Just a thought (while I am sitting here at work.)  Would those mini pops and hesitations (Actually when you listen to the youtube video, when I drop the camera to take it out of gear, you can hear the sounds I am talking about) be due to the PCV valve?  I know there was talk of "detonation", but I was not sure if this sounded like a detonation issue to you guys?  Wanted to ask this before adjusting the Air Fuel Targets.


Also, I was originally told by the FAST efi tech to adjust the Accel Fuel (which was originally at "0") because on my first drive around the block, there was the same sort of rough hesitation (minus the pops) getting up through 1st gear.  He thought it sounded like too much fuel, so had me adjust the Accel fuel to a negative number ( I think we settled at -2).  Could this also possibly be a lack of fuel too?  That would be funny.

Will take a notepad, write down all my current values.  Then I will try making the adjustment to the cruise A/F ration suggested (13.5).  Go a few miles down the open road (I have a 10 Mile stretch that the speed limit is about 65 mph with no lights).  I can then stop at the end, make note of what the difference was in the values and the handling, and make another pass back home (10 miles or so) with another small change in AF ratio.  Once we get this dialed in, We can work on WOT.  I thin idle is fine (once warmed up to operating temperature) since it idles nicely at 950-1000RPM and there is no un-burnt fuel or smoke currently coming from the tailpipe.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 03, 2016, 11:44:54 AM
I doubt it'd be the PCV, however, if it was slightly lean, it could be slightly leaner now.

I didn't hear them and Youtube is blocked at work, but I will crank it up.  Typically detonation would be under a load not decel.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 03, 2016, 01:51:11 PM
Thanks Ross.  Hard to explain.  It seemed to happen intermittently in Cruising (holding at about 2200 PRM) and happens a lot during acceleration.... This is why I thought it was prob. lack of fuel.  I stomp on the gas and it doesn't go anywhere.  Just stumbles and pops.  Like you said, I will work on Cruise first and then when that's good, Ill report back and we can move on to WOT.

From reading online, very few people stay at the factory set A/F Targets.  Since this engine is a bit of a beast, its most definitely going to like some tweaking.  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 03, 2016, 01:57:06 PM
Ok, so you can pick any variable and change it, but you can't change all and get anywhere

The stumple and pop when you drop the hammer sounds like accel fuel AND you know you have accel fuel at a negative, so it makes sense.

However, I'd do the cruise first at 13.5, see how it does, then do the accel, if you do the accel fuel first, it may go real lean on you at cruise.

Don't overthink this one.  Get on the road and see.  If the mixture doesn't change anything though, be ready to look at the ignition

BTW, are you running vacuum advance?  If so is it manifold vacuum and are you able to set your initial timing with a light?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 03, 2016, 04:15:53 PM
I thought about this a bit on the drive back to work.

I look at the task as this....let the car talk to you.

1. Cruise at a steady speed where it bucks or surges, make sure you can recreate it at will.  Then try going slightly richer (lower number)  If it works, go slightly leaner until it starts again, then go back a smidge.  Ignore the acceleration until you get that squared away

2.  Now that cruise is good, set Accel fuel to zero, see if it gets better.  If it needs more, go more, but always shoot for the least amount of fuel you can solve the problem with

3. Then work cold start if required

If nothing you do fixes the surge and buck, then likely it is not mixture related

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: newfalconowner on October 03, 2016, 05:55:56 PM
just checking TPS settings for my throttle body, and found the TPS voltage setting should be .54volts with key on, car not running.. whats yours set at? I haven't checked mine yet, I will tomorrow evening.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 03, 2016, 06:52:50 PM
just checking TPS settings for my throttle body, and found the TPS voltage setting should be .54volts with key on, car not running.. whats yours set at? I haven't checked mine yet, I will tomorrow evening.

I think the FAST system compensates for that. That's why you do a calibration as part of setup to indicate idle throttle position and WOT.  You are correct that a factory system is usually around .5 V when at idle, but they don't have the same kind of programming
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: newfalconowner on October 04, 2016, 03:33:28 AM
ok,, just trying to figure my idle quality and thought that would be why it seeked  up and down some.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 04, 2016, 05:46:08 AM
What does yours use for an IAC and how did you adjust it?

If I had a hunting idle, with a system that didn't adjust timing, I would first make sure timing was set correctly with a light.  Then I would warm it up, disable the IAC and set the mechanical idle stop to just where it barely runs, the lowest idle that still can stay running on it's own, then I would recalibrate the TPS, and enable the IAC
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 04, 2016, 01:11:03 PM
Hi Ross.  This EFI "business" is all kinds of interesting.  I will be doing we se said this weekend, but just want to throw out some info on my car as well as what I have been reading>

OK so I seem to have a Cam with a large amount of overlap (Large being relative I guess).  When I tried to calculate overlap, I think I cam in somewhere in the 60 degree range or so.  Also, to answer a previous question, I do not have vacuum advance and I am not able to adjust the timing with the ECU.  :0)

Reading online, the effects of a cam with large overlap would be felt most at idle.  At idle, more un-burnt fuel is getting out of the combustion chamber before the burn is complete due to the exhaust valve opening sooner.  This will show as a "Rich" mixture by the O2 sensor.  ( I know this has some affect on the idle stumbling while the engine is still cold since the FAST efi does not go into learning mode(Closed loop?) until it reaches operating temps.  As soon as the learning light comes on, the EFI works its magic and the car starts to idle perfectly at 950-1000 RPMs.

I also read that the effects of a cam with larger overlap will be lessened at mid-range RPM and Higher.  This is due to the un-burnt fuel having less time to escape between firing.  This allows the A/F reading on the system to be more accurate as to where your AF ratio actually is.

Just thinking about my issues, the car at midrange and WOT seems to want more fuel (which we will eventually test and get to). 

I guess what I would like to know more about is what is happening during the cold start and what happens differently as soon as the EFI goes into learning mode at operating temps?


At cold start, the engine starts off right at 1000 rpms, but then within 30 seconds or so, the RPM's start to drop and the car shutters shakes.  RPM's drop to 550-600 RPM's.  Also some smoke comes from the tailpipe (unburnt fuel? )  If you do not touch the accelerator at all, it could shutter and shake at 500-600 PRM;'s for a bit as the car tries to stay running, but will then stall.

If you stay on the gas just a tiny bit, it still runs a bit rough, but keeping the RPMs at about 1000 .... it warms up in about 2 to 3 minutes.  As soon as it warms to operating temp, the learning light comes on - on the handheld and the computer automatically corrects and the car idles beautifully and stays there.  It searches a little for the right mix, but then the IAC ends up around mid 20's, A/F stays on target (Currently 13.5) and just works perfectly.

I read on the instructions for the new computer handheld, that any changes to "cold start fuel" will only apply to the engine while its cold.  As soon as the car reaches temp, the computer shuts off the changes made with the  "Cold Start fuel enrichment feature".

Since the car idles perfectly when warm, The cold idle will be the last thing I work on, but I am super curious whats going on before the EFi goes into learning mode (and what a cam with large overlap has to do with it).

Super interesting  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 05, 2016, 06:08:04 AM
Think of overlap at low speeds, especially idle, creating a diluted mixture, additionally, think about the big ports of a SOHC having an issue to carry a charge to the chamber at low speeds, creating a lean mixture, Lean likes more timing dilution is fixed for the most part, but changes with RPM. 
The O2 sensor sees raw fuel that is passing through when the intake and exhaust are open.

So, the computer thinks the engine is rich, and corrects, but the engine is actually asking for more fuel.  So the first thing with a lot of overlap is to treat what the chamber sees with timing.  Now, I am not a SOHC guy, and they will be a bit different based on what the valve does with a certain amount of overlap compared to a wedge, but I would run as much initial timing as the starter likes during hot start, and curve the distributor for desired fuel (rate) and peak power (total) from your dyno runs.  Having as much initial and as flat of a curve as you can offsets the diluted mixture down low

Now, for the idle a/f mixture, some computers can go into open loop at idle (or even during hard acceleration) even when hot.  That's how the advanced systems do it to compensate for big overlap cams.  Mine, I can trigger open loop whenever I want.  What open loop does is just essentially make it an electronic carb, commanding fuel at a predetermiend rate, with minimal or no input from the sensors.  Idling in open command a richer O2 value, knowing that it may idle a little smelly out of the pipe, but what the chamber sees is what it likes, not what the O2 sensor says.

So now, mid range and accel seems to want more fuel too as you stated  Yes I think so.  However, use the actual terms your controller uses.  Cruise, Accel, and whatever else you have, that way we can be sure to say what to change and say the same thing every time.

So cruise RPM you have lower RPMs but not as low as idle, so less dilution, AND you have less load on the motor, so you can accept leaner.  Right now you have bucking at that RPM, so you likely need to go richer. As I said earlier, fix that first, BUT, like all the thinking/understanding you are doing is good, BETTER will be listening to the engine and let it tell you what it wants then testing your change.  Logic may or may not work here.  Change one variable, see if it fixes what you are fighting then make another decision.  The fact that the controller commands 14.0 at cruise (pretty lean) AND you are getting lean behavior AND you know you have a decent cam with some overlap AND potentially pump gas could have alcohol in it all leads me to think you need to richen the commanded cruise a/f ratio.

So, if you consider cruise to be the easily replicated that covers the widest operating range and it's an easily tested scenario, do that first.

Now the Accel fuel, drop the hammer the "lean goes leaner" and backfires.  Very understandable AND you are in the negative on the controller AND you have overlap and big ports which can slow the mixture down allwing fuel to come out of suspension, so it all makes sense.  Next you sneak up on that.

So, in theory, at this point, you have it running great hot and what happens in cold start?  The computer uses an open loop enrichment program to get the engine warmed up, like a choke.  The computer just tells the injectors to do a certain thing and pretty much ignores most of the other sensor inputs.  It HAS to be cold, the ECM will have a fail safe to require a certain temp to do it, so only can be changed once a day likely when the engine is cold.  Usually cold start has a couple options idle speed,and idle mixture.  Idle speed is easy, just bump it up if controllable.  If normally idling at 1000, put it at 1250 or 1400 when cold.  If you can't adjust, it'll have some sort of standard RPM additive amount on its own, so don't worry about it

Next, because the big ports and overlap already create a DILUTED mixture, now let's add that cold fuel doesn't like to atomize when cold and the entire engine has no heat.  So, you richen to compensate.  Same deal as before, try something, see what happens, tweak the next time.  Once it warms up it will go into closed loop (what most of these systems call learning mode because it tweaks the tables while it gets inputs).  However, this is not BECAUSE of overlap, it's just the cold fuel coming out of suspension adding to the issue of dilution.  In other words, the chamber is diluted already because of overlap and intake/head design and the cold situation adds to the issue with a LEAN condition.

If that last sentence is confusing.  Dilution = exhaust in the chamber taking up space without fuel or oxygen   LEAN = Not enough fuel for the available oxygen, in this case due to cold temps

So

Timing if you can
Cruise 2nd
Accel 3rd (However see my last line)
Cold start 4th over time

If you have other options, let me know, but let the car talk to you, and go one step at a tile

Last comment, One thing I would do if was mine is put Accel to zero right away, however I know that goes against how I am telling you to tune.  You dont HAVE to, but my hunch is that it will make the car easier to drive and then you can go back to it for tweaking.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 05, 2016, 07:53:23 AM
Thanks Ross.  For the timing part, Jay set that up when he did the Dyno runs.  I will seek his jusgement on the timing issue.

2nd, thank you again for explaining.  I think what was throwing me for a loop (no pun intended) is the fact that at cold start, when the engine is stuttering and bucking around 550-600 RPM, there is smoke coming from the tailpipe).  Due to the smell, I was thinking that there was too much fuel (and not a lean condition).  Again, once the car hits operating temp, the smoke is completely gone! and then the car idles perfectly and rev's beautifully (Revving in idle after warmed up- It does NOT miss or pop at all).  The smoke was confusing because I would have thought that it was running too Rich and thus wanted a leaner mixture.  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 05, 2016, 10:20:54 AM
I won't speak for Jay, because I know he is very knowledgeable, but total timing is generally the focus on a dyno based on power.  The reason is, the mechanical curve is fully in at the lowest RPM a dyno measures, so the curve is less important.

On the street, different.  For example, if you graph a straight line from 16 to 38 with 16 being at idle RPM and 38 based on peak power, for example, all in by 2800, then draw the same line from 22 at idle to 38 by 2800, you see the line is flatter, and at low RPM you have more advance to offset the diluted mixture/lean condition.

That doesn't even touch advance stuff like 2 stage advance like guys like Faron does, but that is yet another form of street tuning that will show ZERO on a dyno.

I'd be interested in 2 things

1 - Max advance the starter can handle
2 - If Jay though having more initial would ping at part throttle
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 05, 2016, 10:23:39 AM
BTW, my 489 has timing control, so I know it is apples and oranges, but.  I fire the engine at the computer takes it to 20 BTDC, total is 38 all in by 2600, but it has a bunch of corrections/adjustments based on temp, load, etc.  In the end though, although mine cranks at 10 BTDC, it immediately goes to 20 once it lights off
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 05, 2016, 10:41:05 AM
Ross is correct Jason, on the dyno pulls the timing was all in by the time the pull started.  I just ran the distributor you sent, and didn't make any timing adjustments except total.  I used 30 degrees total advance during the dyno testing, which is about all you want to run with an SOHC.

One other comment is that the kind of problems you are experiencing are fairly common with these self-learning EFI systems, at least based on the few people I know who have run them.  I wish I would have talked you into a direct port EFI system, like a FAST XFI or a Megasquirt.  You have so much more control with a system like that.  Your engine is far enough away from a typical street performance engine that I think you might be fighting these tuning issues for a while.  The direct port EFI system would have been quite a bit more expensive, but I think the tuning issues may have been behind you by now with one of those...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 05, 2016, 10:47:24 AM
Good info

I think you need to see what initial is set to.  Now you know where the advance needs to be at full throttle, so you change bushings in an MSD, or adjust stops in a Mallory to have the right initial to make the total.

My hunch, 18-20 initial if the starter and battery can handle it, then limit mechanical to reach 30, likely do wonders depending where it is now.

Keep in mind, if it is fresh out of the box, you could be at 30 - 20 = 10 initial, which would be absolutely miserable with big ports and a relatively big cam.  Not to mention, if out of the box it's likely very slow too
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 05, 2016, 12:27:50 PM
The MSD Distributor I have (set it up before sending to Jay) has 1 light Silver spring and 1 light blue spring.  this gives us the curve in the graph below on the right side, second one down.  Looks like total timing in all at 30 degrees at 3200 RPM?  Not sure what the initial timing is.  I can just put the timing light on it at Idle and find out.  Thanks Guys.  Ill let you know.  Sad we went from possibly just tweaking the target AF ratios to this.....  LOL


(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/Timing%20curve_zpszgco49ot.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/Timing%20curve_zpszgco49ot.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 05, 2016, 01:25:50 PM
I can't remember what you've got in the distributor, but use the black bushing, if you are not using it already.  This will let you run the maximum initial advance, and all the advance will be in by 2000 RPM.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 05, 2016, 01:48:02 PM
The MSD Distributor I have (set it up before sending to Jay) has 1 light Silver spring and 1 light blue spring.  this gives us the curve in the graph below on the right side, second one down.  Looks like total timing in all at 30 degrees at 3200 RPM?  Not sure what the initial timing is.  I can just put the timing light on it at Idle and find out.  Thanks Guys.  Ill let you know.  Sad we went from possibly just tweaking the target AF ratios to this.....  LOL


(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/Timing%20curve_zpszgco49ot.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/Timing%20curve_zpszgco49ot.jpg.html)

First, that isn't sad, you are actually to the point where you are tuning instead of repairing!

Second, I think all in my 3200 is WAY slow, like tow truck slow.  Of course how far it goes also affecting how quick it can get there, but if you are a very low number initial 8-12, combined with a curve all in by 3200, that car is going to feel like it gained 2 cylinders around town with the proper curve, and as a second benefit, the tuning will be significantly easier.

Post what you find for initial timing, that needs to be right before you spend much time tuning the EFI.  I am excited to hear the results
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 05, 2016, 02:06:40 PM
Will Do.  :0)   Thanks again!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 09, 2016, 01:46:02 PM
Timing at idle is 8degrees BTDC.  With the springs I have on the dizzy, do I beed to change anything or can I start the target A/F ratios?  Thanks guys
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 09, 2016, 03:01:12 PM
So, if you are at 8 degrees, and Jay put you at 30 BTDC on the dyno, you got a little work to do, but be happy, that motor should be MUCH happier

Right now it looks like you have a 22 degree bushing in.  I'd put a black bushing in for 18, and set the initial timing to 12.  It'll run cooler, have more vacuum, and feel much healthier.  I personally would prefer to see you put 2 blue (light) springs in, but you can also just leave what you have and try it.

It'll run much better, then you can get to tuning.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 09, 2016, 03:15:58 PM
Hey Ross.  I installed the black bushing initially.  So just need to tweak the timing?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 09, 2016, 03:38:26 PM
Well, why would it have changed? Did you have the distributor out sice the dyno run?

I was just assuming Jay set it at 30 total and you left it there
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 09, 2016, 03:42:06 PM
I guess a better way to put it is, if you are at 8 and you have the black bushing, you are only getting 26 total, Jay says it should like 32.

I would verify both initial and total, and likely it would run better at 12-14 initial, and 30-32 total (the higher numbers just giving you a smidge more initial.

Listen for detonation though, because it's going to be a different animal if you were running it at 8 initial / 26 total
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 09, 2016, 04:21:43 PM
Hi Ross.  Sorry, initially jay had me put in the black stop bushing as well as swap out thesprings it came with  to the light blue and light silver springs.  Not sure on total, but initial is definately 8 degrees BTDC.  Sorry, writing from my phone as I do hurricane clean up :0)  thanks again
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 09, 2016, 04:26:55 PM
No worries, the black bushing is 18 degrees.  So if your marks are correct, you should have initial set at 12 degrees.

If you are confident in what is in the distributor, then set initial and start with the EFI tuning, but don't start EFI tuning until you have the timing set right

The reason I mentioned the springs is that 18+12 = 30, all in by 2000 is pretty aggressive, but 30 total is NOT aggressive, so it must be a decent chamber with hemi, so I say if you know what you havem reset initial and get tuning, my guess is it is going to run WAY better with 4 more degrees from idle on up

ON EDIT:  One last thing.

- More initial = idle will go up, the IAC will step down, but it depends how much it can
- If it goes up too much and you have to close the thrttle plates, remember to reset the TPS when done
- THEN get to tuning
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 09, 2016, 04:43:44 PM
Thanks Ross!  Ill report back asap 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 10, 2016, 07:16:49 PM
Alrighty.  Checked again, and at idle, I was sitting at 8 degrees BTDC.  Had the wife rev the engine to 3500 RPM and it came in right at 26!  I then finagled the distributor a little until I was getting 12 degrees BTDC.  Like Ross had said, I had to adjust the TPS because it uped the RPM when I advanced the timing.  Got it to idle at 1000 RPM and with initial timing sitting at 12 degrees BTDC.  Revved the engine again up to 3500 RPM, and we came in right at 30.

As a side note, smoke was gone, and in a quick spin around the block, the sputtering was gone.  Will take a longer ride this weekend now that timing is corrected. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 11, 2016, 06:23:20 AM
Awesome, there is still likely power in tuning, but sounds like you are getting close!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 11, 2016, 08:36:10 AM
Also wanted to throw this question out there.....  Yesterday I noticed a loud "whistling" noise that would only periodically happen.  It was hard to pinpoint, but sounded like it was coming from the water pump area.  I would go away by itself and only lasted a 10-20 seconds each time.  I thought maybe some sort of cavitation in the pump itself?  Wasn't sure so I figured I would ask  :0)

Another thought was one of the timing chain sprockets (tensioner sprocket or the fuel stand idler sprocket).  Its quite loud (not faint by any means).  Just seemed to start now that I have corrected the timing  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on October 11, 2016, 08:38:38 AM
Perhaps the belt slipping when the alternator cuts in
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 11, 2016, 08:44:03 AM
Hey Heo,
That's definitely a possibility.  I have the alternator belt tensioned pretty taught since I wasn't getting a charge (when it was too loose).  Perhaps its just gotten a little "shiny" and whistles a little.  Ill check the belt out when I get home  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 14, 2016, 01:18:59 PM
Hi Guys,

Got off of work early today, so I got the car back up on jack stands and rolled on under!  Oil in all the same places, so I started off by snugging up the oil pan bolts.  None of them seemed Then a quick wipe down before I started the car and rolled back under.  Was able to observe the bottom of the engine at both high oil pressure (just upon start) and lower oil pressure when the car heated up.  What I was able to observe a drip of oil that comes from somewhere and hit the lower header pipe (smoking and sizzling).  I can't see all of it from underneath or on top, but I was not able to see any dripping from what I was able to see.  I did not see it coming from the valve cover gasket, but what I could not see, it was too hot to feel around.  So mystery drip there.

Also, now that the car has had the timing adjusted a little, I have noticed that I am still getting smoke from the tailpipe.  Seemed to happen now both at warm up and now also after the car is warm and idling spot on.  Unsure.  I tried adjusting the A/F ratio when in the driveway to maybe a little leaner (13.5 to 14.0, but the smoke was still there.  I wasn't sure how lean is too lean on each setting (Idle, cruise, and WOT), so I put it back to the 13.5.

Definitely seems to run stronger now with the timing adjusted, but a few little issues to work out.  Any thoughts on what the danger zones are for each A/F ratio?  that way when I'm "fiddling" I don't go to lean and cause any damage?  Thanks Guys!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on October 14, 2016, 01:56:03 PM
Color of the smoke? Black =rich.  White just the air humidity
Big engine that you send a lot of air through that contains
a lot of vapour that condense in the engine until it heats up


Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 14, 2016, 04:10:35 PM
Hey Heo,

Blueish white smoke.  Makes the whole yard and my clothes smell like gas.  Lol 

Idle A /F ratio is 13.5.  I did notice while driving today that when I push the gas, the AF ratio goes into the 15.5 range for a moment.....  seems really lean, but dont know if the temp dip is normal ( sorry, sidd note from the smoke issue)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 14, 2016, 05:41:14 PM
Another interedting tid bit.  Found some oil!  There is oil from what seems like one of the header bolts!  Not coming from above ( valve cover gasket).  Not even sure how oil can come from a header bolt.  Lol    Any thought?  Felt all the way around the valve cover gaskets.  Dry all the way around!  Also, perhaps oil is getting into the exhaust and hence the smoke?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on October 14, 2016, 07:09:53 PM
Blueish sounds like oil....hold your hand behind the exhaust
pipe and see if you get an oilfilm om your hand(gues you can use a piece of
cardboard or some other sissy equipment :D :D)
Does it smoke more when you start it and when you let up the gas (decelerate)
Oil on header bolt?is there any chance the hole is drilled to deep
so you found oil that way?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 14, 2016, 07:30:11 PM
Not sure.  Smells more like fuel and not oil.  I will fiddle more tomorrow.  See what I can find
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 15, 2016, 08:32:58 AM
On the smoke in the exhaust, remember that we just reinstalled the same pistons and rings that were originally in the engine.  They all looked good, and the bores looked good too, but maybe the rings aren't sealing up for some reason.  Kind of hard to say until you've got more miles on the engine, though.

As long as you are checking bolts, maybe check the front cover bolts too.  There is no path for oil to leak out of the header bolt holes, so it has to be coming from somewhere else.  My first reaction if there was oil on a header bolt would be the valve cover gasket, but if those are dry, maybe oil is coming back from a leak in the front cover area and running along the header flange to the bolt.  Just guessing...

A momentary lean condition when you accelerate means your acceleration enrichment for the EFI system isn't right yet.  Is that part self tuning, or do can you adjust that yourself?  If so, I would give the engine more fuel on throttle tip-in.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 17, 2016, 07:52:57 AM
Thanks Jay,

Sorry about the above post all.  I was typing on my phone, and even I had a hard time reading/understanding it  LOL.  So last night I went in and snugged down the bolts on the headers, front cover, and oil pan bolts.

I think I figured it out....  OK, so if oil was dripping from the rear main seal, there would be a little trail of oil down the front of the scatter shield/ Backing plate and then drip off of the bell housing.  After wiping it all down, there still seems to be a drip from the bell housing, but no trail down the backing plate.  I believe this particular  drip is from the back freeze plug (the one that's not a screw in- in the center of the block).

As for the other drips, its hard.....  This engine literally takes up the entire engine bay.  Hard to reach anything at all from the top.  From the bottom, the headers take up all the rest of the space.  Can't really see anything from the bottom either  LOL.  its a case of "if I could, I would"  LOL

I will try reaching a few more of the valve cover bolts to snug down, and then I am going to take it out for a LONG drive to make sure I get proper ring seat.  I have a circular highway here in Jax (I- 295) which is a huge 61 mile loop around the city.  I figure 1 or 2 times around should do the trick.... and then an oil change!  Will post back soon!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 17, 2016, 08:27:33 AM
Also, as a side note (and we all know how much I love side notes)....  The smoking at cold start has always been there...  but after warm up, that smoke started at about the same time as the PCV valve installation!  I will get the rings to seat through some mileage, but if its still smoking, I will just throw 2 really good breathers on the VC tubes and disconnect the PCV valve.

I was going to do all of this Sunday, but there was some torrential downpours and Jax was once again Flooded all around town.

:0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on October 17, 2016, 12:26:33 PM
W/O some kind of material in the VC underneath the PCV's opening, the oil will get sucked out of the engine, past the PCV valve and into the intake, hence the smoke.
SS steel wool, that Choreboy SS kitchen sink material, etc. goes a long way to prevent oil from being sucked out.

I'd not wait. Take off the PCV now and just run breathers for your long drive. Why? Excess oil can coat the inside of your entire exhaust system and this can take some driving time and exhaust heat to burn it off.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 18, 2016, 04:23:02 PM
Out of town so sorry for not responding earlier

I agree that if the PCV is improperly designed, without adequate baffling if front of the PCV, then it needs to be fixed, either with a better baffle or a oil trp.  However I do not think breather vents are the right answer long term, especially if it has marginal ring seal.  If you think your valve covers or breather basket (depending what you use) is not adequate, fix it.

Experiment?  OK, that makes sense to find the source of smoke, but my hunch is there is something not right causing oil burning and leakage, not the PCVm a fresh motor shouldn't be making a mess

Regardless, pick a course of action and before you go add 2 to your accel fuel and get some miles on it.  Not just highway, accel and decel too. 

Oil leaks generally do not solve themselves though, my guess is you'll be pulling it out one more time
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 19, 2016, 04:59:29 PM
OK...  Took today to get a few additional things buttoned up.  I don't know if I mentioned it or not, but the coolant overflow tank hose touched the header on the drivers side.  It wasn't leaking, but there was a divot melted into it.  Rather than take a chance on a longer trip, I just purchased a new hose and replaced it (Shorter this time so it cannot touch the headers).

In other news, I pulled the PCV valve/ cap, and there was a little puddle of oil in the top of the baffle tube.  I am pretty sure it was sucking oil vapors and burning them....  hence more smoke.  The K&N crank case breather filters came today, so I swapped them out and re-capped the vacuum port on the side of the throttle body.

Lastly, I wanted to get to all of the bolts on the valve covers. Given the size of this engine, and the tiny little engine bay I stuffed it in....  Getting to almost anything is a challenge to say the least.  Using a combination of hand wrench, rachet and socket, and vavious extensions and swivel elbows, I was able to get them all.  It also required that I pull the battery and battery tray, as well as to put the end on jackstands to reach some from the bottom.  While down there, I noticed more oil.  This time on the passenger side headers.  I agree (as Jay has stated) that there is/ was a definite leak in the valve cover gaskets.  Hopefully tightening them all down will help.

With that being said, I started the car and let the oil warm before setting out for another 5 mile drive (I know I need to put like 60-70 miles, but I will get there).

I can say that (as Ross just stated, up-ing the accel fuel to +2 now allows the car to accelerate without choking.  The cruise issue seems to have fixed itself with the adjustment to timing we did last.  The car did smoke a little, but I am sure this will get better with 100+ miles or so and a fresh oil change, giving the car time to burn off what is still in the exhaust system, and also giving the computer time to learn.  Much Much better though just with todays changes.

This was the last mini drive today.  I will go out for a long (50+ mile) drive tomorrow.

Thanks to you guys again and keep you posted
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 20, 2016, 07:36:46 AM
Sounds good, just for giggles, can you pull the valve covers off in the car?

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 20, 2016, 07:38:07 AM
It sucks that you've got to pull the battery and tray to get the valve covers off; you need to be able to access those occasionally to check valve lash, check the rockers, etc.  Also, at the time I put the engine together the thick cork gaskets were all that were available for the SOHC, but recently SCE gaskets has come out with a combination cork/composite gasket that holds up much better than the straight cork ones.  I tried one of them on Drag Week and never had to re-tighten the valve cover bolts all week.  The problem with the cork gaskets is that they shrink with heat cycles, so it seems like you are always re-tightening them.  Also, they tend to get cut by the head castings when they get thin, which will cause a leak no matter how much you tighten them, and you just have to replace them at that point.

As far as I know SCE has not provided a part number for the new gaskets yet.  I got the first two copies, and I was the guinea pig for them, so they are not really in production yet, as far as I know.  I am trying to order at least four sets for myself, and may pick up 10 sets, just so I can have them available for others when they are in production.  I will post information on the valve cover gaskets as soon as I have more info.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 20, 2016, 02:04:01 PM
Thanks Jay.  I had some time today to do a little snooping.  I found 2 leak spots.  The dipstick tube is leaking, so I will reseal it and retighten it.  Another I found was a little worse.  There is a little "well" right next to the distributor behind the front cover.  The oil is leaking from maybe under the intake ( china wall) and fills up the little "well" and then flows down between the front cover and drivers side head to pool up ontop of the oil adapter.  Seems like at anytime, there is a tablespoon of oil sitting in the "well".

This doesnt explain the rear oil drip (bell housing) but getting them found a little at a time.  Not sure if this picture is that clear, but its the beat I could get with my phone;
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/F64EAE91-91A7-4177-963B-F214D93AB45F_zps6petdmtd.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/F64EAE91-91A7-4177-963B-F214D93AB45F_zps6petdmtd.jpg.html)

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 21, 2016, 03:30:49 PM
Also, pulled plug on cylinder #5 (chosen at random).  Wanted to see if its all blavk and fouled up from a rich idle mixture....  actually not bad.  Definately not black, but not white from running too lean either.  Right about in the middle ( tannish color ?) with a slight hint of the smell of fuel. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 21, 2016, 03:41:03 PM
Jason, thanks for the picture.  Since there is oil on top of the intake I would say that is a leak around the distributor, not between the intake and the block.  There is a round rubber seal that goes around the distributor and is supposed to seal to the hole that goes through the intake; maybe that seal went bad or something.

The triangular shaped hole towards the lower left on the picture actually will go all the way down past the head and out the bottom, past the left side of the timing cover.  Is that the "well" you are talking about?  Any oil there should drain out the bottom by the front cover.  Are you seeing an oil leak at the bottom of the engine, at the front?

One way to solve that leak is to find a couple of O-rings that fit around the distributor in the seal position, and put them on the distributor first, then re-install the round rubber seal.  That will space the seal out so that it seals against the hole in the intake. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 21, 2016, 03:59:20 PM
Hi Jay.  The "well" seems to be between the backing plate and the front of the intake manifold.  Pools in a little area right next to the distributor, but not on top of the intake( hard to describe).  When it fills up, it drips down the little opening between the backing plate and the drivers side head and pools on top of the oil filter adapter.  Doesnt do it at idle, so must do it when under acceleration only.  Seems to be 3 seperate leaks.  This one in the front, a really small leak at the dipstick tube, -and the mystery one that drips down the bellhousing.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 22, 2016, 08:01:38 AM
Also, pulled plug on cylinder #5 (chosen at random).  Wanted to see if its all blavk and fouled up from a rich idle mixture....  actually not bad.  Definately not black, but not white from running too lean either.  Right about in the middle ( tannish color ?) with a slight hint of the smell of fuel.

If you are coloring the plugs driving in town, it's likely too rich.  I'd start tweaking (or I suppose you could let the learning try to do it) Modern fuels will look lean in normal operation, and more than that reading plugs anywhere but the dyno and after a WOT run on the strip and shutting it down immediately will only give you gross information, too many circuits contributing to the coloring.

As far as the oil leak, looks like distributor, intake or front cover, I'd be going from easy to hard to figure it out
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 22, 2016, 03:04:35 PM
Thanks Ross.  Took the car out today to see if I could start at one setting ( idle) and adjust theAF ratio to get things dialed in.  With the idle, I had to adjust the numbers to get leaner and then every so often, adjust the ISC.  At 14.7 to 1, there was barely any unburnt fuel coming out of the exhaust.  The IAC was in the mid 20's and the car idled at 1000 rpm.  Perfect ( or so I thought!)  left my neibhborhood, and the car accelerated fine ( accel fuel still at +2), cruised perfecty ....... and then I tried to stop.  It would just stall when I put into neutral.  I could downshift because the rps's stayed high, but as soon as it tried to go back down to idle, it would shut right off.  So too lean!  Got back home with about 5 miles of fancy shifting/ revving, and got the computer back to 13.5 at idle.  Oil still dripping, so I may just take the intake off to re-do the sealant and at the same time, pull valve covers and check the lash on the rockers.  Unfortunately, I dont know when I can get to this because we are selling the house and moving again!  I guess for now..... end of forum posts!  Lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 22, 2016, 04:00:25 PM
Jason, don't pull the intake until you check that distributor seal.  I think that must be where it's coming from, because in the picture there is oil on TOP of the intake, right by the distributor hold down clamp.  If it was the front seal between the intake and the block, the oil would just drip down under the engine.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 22, 2016, 07:23:29 PM
Hi Jay.  No problem.  In looking at the instructions for the distributor, there is only 1 o ring toward the bottom of the shaft going toward the gear.  There does not seem to be any seal on the distributor at the top ( near the top of the block/ intake.  Its definately getting worse as I can see it now dripping fown the side of the block from the "well" onto the oil filter adapter and then down to the driveway. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 22, 2016, 09:37:35 PM
The rubber seal is not internal, it goes on the outside of the distributor housing.  See the photo below:

(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/distseal.jpg)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 22, 2016, 09:47:16 PM
Pretty sure thats whats missing then.  Ill check and also see if I can order a replacement ( only see ones for Chevy msd's on Jegs)  thanks again 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 22, 2016, 10:18:35 PM
I doubt that it is missing, it is probably just scarred up or shrunken a little, and not sealing to the hole in the intake manifold.  If it is missing, my bad, because I installed the distributor. 

I've got extras, I'll send you one - Jay
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 23, 2016, 08:56:49 AM
Jason,
I doubt you need 13.7:1 to idle.  My guess is the IAC is gummed up or sticking.  There should be no reason it needs that much fuel.

I know the numbers are just a reference point and we don't really know what ever cylinder sees, but if the engine was to temp and ran well, then something changed, it likely was not a mixture problem.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 23, 2016, 09:43:41 AM
Thanks Jay.

Hey Ross,  I had it down to 14.7 :1...... and it didnt like that.  I was idling nice in the driveway with almost no fuel smoke coming out of the tailpipe, but when driving ( under load) , it would stall out at idle of as soon as I put it into neutral.  When i got home ( with difficulty) , i reset the ecu back to 13.5 : 1 .  But as a positive, it cruised well and accel well.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 23, 2016, 10:40:44 AM
I am not questioning your results, it just seems too much of a swing to me.  The IAC should respond and catch the idle regardless of mixture.  I wonder if you have had a stuck IAC all along?

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 23, 2016, 05:09:40 PM
Hi Ross,

No worries.  I saw in your last message you said 13.7 : 1.  I actually had it as lean as 14.7 : 1 to make the unburnt fuel smell (white smoke) to stop coming out of the tailpipe.  Each time I went leaner from the starting point of 13.5:1, I had to readjust and calibrate the IAC.  Was this wrong?  I wasn't sure if I needed to recalibrate the IAC by opening or closing it more based on the change in the AF target. 

So now I have it back to 13:5 to 1 at idle (factory setting).  I also have the IAC perfect as per the handheld so that its perfectly on target.  From this point, I am guessing I can go leaner , but the question is 2 fold....  How much leaner can I go (normally) and also do I need to readjust the IAC each time I change the Air Fuel target? 

When I started changing the AF target for idle, I did it slowly (in maybe 4 or 5 separate small changes) ending up at 14.7 to 1.  At 14.7 to 1 at idle, I re-adjusted the IAC so that it was back on target (done by adjusting screws on each throttle body).  The car sitting in the driveway was idling the same as it was at 13.5 to 1, hanging there at the target 1000 RPM's, but minus a lot of the unburnt fuel smoke.  I thought this was good, until I went for a drive.  At which point it would just stall as soon as I put it into neutral or got down to 2nd or 1st gear (downshifting).  I think what threw me off was that the 14.7 to 1 was good while at idle in the driveway, but then as soon as I started to drive, the 14.7 to 1 wouldn't work anymore.  lol

I would be curious (and maybe Jay can add to this) what his and other cammer engines AF ratios are?  Specifically idle?  I was thinking that due to overlap on this cam, plus the fact that this car does NOT have catalytic converters, that it will always smell a little life fuel (and possible always run a bit rich)?

Sorry if my previous post came off short.  I am usually replying on the road and via iPhone.  Waited to get home and type clearly on a laptop for this post :0)   Thanks Ross.......  I wont lie, this is all fun in a real PITA kind of way  LOL

Side note, As I was trying to get home the other day with the stalling issue, I pulled out of a gas station and immediately stalled.  The Saleen has vacuum assist brakes, so when it stalls, I have almost NO brakes.  LOL Pulled off to the side of the road and realized that I would have to keep the RPM's up while going home in order to stop it from stalling.  Put it in 1st gear, and while keeping on the throttle, let out the clutch.....  MY FIRST Burnout!!!!  Shame is was by accident, but I will take it! 

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: newfalconowner on October 23, 2016, 05:42:04 PM
my a/f idles at 14.7 every time. I haven't really gotten able to take it for a long drive yet,, as it gets dark here early now  and weekends are usually busy till late afternoon..
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 23, 2016, 06:03:16 PM
Be careful.  I had mine at 14.7, and although it idled perfectly in the driveway, but as soon as I went out on the road, it died.  Still working through my understanding of it all.  Lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 23, 2016, 06:06:08 PM
So, your info is really good, but, you may be fighting the simple programming capability of that system.

In my experience, as long as the IAC value doesn't sit on an extreme, 0-10 or 90-100 (assuming your scale indicates % open) I let it sit wherever it wants.  The idea is that as long as it has room to open or close as required, I don't care if it's at any exact point

That being said, I didn't comprehend that 13.5 is their default, they must expect that the system will be used with cams with some overlap and then just account for the raw fuel. 

Now, one concerning thing, at idle, white smoke, usually isn't fuel.  Fuel will be black or hazy dark gray, and to be honest I have never seen an engine smoke at idle due to unburned fuel.  Once you goose it, it usually will barf our a black puff, but to have white smoke to me sounds like oil (very light blue, not white) or antifreeze (white steam), additionally check your brake fluid level to make sure it isn't sucking brake fluid due to a bad booster or master cylinder.

As far as your question on a/f ratios for cammers, I'll jump in but I am NOT a cammer guy.  First, true the cammer is likely prone to more scavenging which will pull more through at overlap, hemis do that.  However, usually not so much an issue at idle, there just isn't that much of a negative pulse in the exhaust with no load and low flow.  Additionally, comparing one a/f number to another is very difficult, location of the sensor, type of sensor, how the programming interprets it, is all different.  All you can do is loosely compare information, especially at idle when exhaust flow is low.

For giggles, how far away is your O2 sensor from the head, just a WAG, don't need you to measure it unless it's easy.  Also, is it pointing at some upward angle?  I actually have mine slightly too far back (right behind the collector on the H pipe) and I had to program a delay into the tuning to account for the location.  Of course yours can't do that, but that could explain some goofy behavior.

If there is any way to take a movie of your smoke though, I think it would help, for the tuning setup you have, it shouldn't be smoking and the description, to me anyway, doesn't sound like fuel.

One last comment, can you shut off learning, and if yes, do you when programming and test driving afterwards?  I have had very good luck with programming until I am happy, then enabling learning afterwards
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 23, 2016, 06:09:02 PM
Your cams aren't real radical but they are not real mild, either.  I don't think there's anything wrong with a 13.5:1 A/F at idle, especially in light of the SOHC chamber, which is not particularly efficient.  I also think you are always going to get some fuel smell out of the exhaust; I always do.  If it runs well at 13.5 I'd leave it there.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 23, 2016, 06:19:16 PM
Your cams aren't real radical but they are not real mild, either.  I don't think there's anything wrong with a 13.5:1 A/F at idle, especially in light of the SOHC chamber, which is not particularly efficient.  I also think you are always going to get some fuel smell out of the exhaust; I always do.  If it runs well at 13.5 I'd leave it there.

Jay, as I said, I have zero experience with cammers, did do some EFI 426 Mopar Hemi stuff a long time ago, but that was in 1998 I think with the original Holley TBI, good for it's day but not good LOL

Question though, if the chamber isn't too efficient, why only 30 degrees of total to make peak power?  Seems counter intuitive, usually it takes a very good chamber to get total that low
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Barry_R on October 23, 2016, 06:37:56 PM
Stop worrying about A/F readings at idle.  Many aftermarket O2 sensors and systems do not have the capability of getting good data at low airflow, where exhaust system reverse pulses and temperatures can be highly variable and influence the readings.  Set idle where it runs the best.  Smelly exhaust can also come from being too lean - unburned hydrocarbons from a sparse mixture.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 23, 2016, 07:26:48 PM
Actually just remembered the last video I took of the car running in the driveway, it had no smoke and was at 13.5.  Vacuum brake tube sucking break fluid possible.  Ill try and take another video, but ill leave it at 13.5 because it runs well there.  Thanks guys. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 24, 2016, 11:01:32 AM

Jay, as I said, I have zero experience with cammers, did do some EFI 426 Mopar Hemi stuff a long time ago, but that was in 1998 I think with the original Holley TBI, good for it's day but not good LOL

Question though, if the chamber isn't too efficient, why only 30 degrees of total to make peak power?  Seems counter intuitive, usually it takes a very good chamber to get total that low

That's a really good question Ross, and I have wondered about that myself.  A full hemi chamber like the SOHC has is generally considered to be a poor chamber, what with the big piston dome required that inhibits flame travel, lots of surface area, and no quench area.  And, I have had people who ran these engines back in the day, Jim Barillaro for example, tell me that he used to run up to 38 total on his engines.  But on the dyno, anything past 31-32 degrees results in a power reduction.  I pushed the timing once with one of my SOHCs and had to back out of the pull when it started audibly knocking.  So, I don't know why they only like 30 degrees or so of timing, but it certainly isn't because they've got an efficient chamber.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on October 24, 2016, 11:36:33 AM
Jay, didn't Barillo run alky or a light alky/nitro load in his cars back then? I'll venture he was talking only gasoline....or was he?

Oh, and on what octane fuel did you SOHC start knocking when you have to pull the timing back? 114+ race fuel?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 24, 2016, 12:46:55 PM
It was a 12:1 SOHC and it was knocking on 111 octane Rocket Brand racing fuel, if I recall correctly.  And I'm pretty sure that Jim B was talking gasoline, because we were talking about my engine at the time.  But of course Jim has run the Methanol/Nitro mix in some of his cars...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 24, 2016, 05:30:53 PM
Hey all.  I also noticed that since I have had to snug down the valve covers to stop oil seeping through or around the cork gaskets, the sparkplug tube O-rings no longer seal the lip of the tube to the lip of the valve cover.  This is also letting oil "mist" out of this space.  I am thinking that I can either wait until the new valve cover gaskets Jay has been speaking about become available, or I can contact Doug over at PrecisionOilPumps and order a second set of spark plug O-Rings and double up each tube? 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on October 24, 2016, 05:52:46 PM
I had worked a litle with British bikes and they got full hemi
chambers.I think they lose power with more ignition because
the ineficient chamber cant take any more ignition.  And the
combustion starts acting up before they start knocking just a
theori i have no sientific tests to back it up. They are said to
like dual plugs though
And take a Flathead for
example, They dont have anything near a efficient chamber and
dont like  much ignition att all and have realy low compression.
But they could run higher compression and more power out of
a flathead than a overhead valve engine before they "invented"
the squisch area in the combustion chamber. The old overhead
valve chambers was just a round hole with straight sides and a
flat bottom with 2 valves.They have wery rough idle and feels
tired compared to a Flathead. Many makers went back to flatheads
from Overhead valves
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 24, 2016, 07:20:16 PM
Jason, you should be able to get those O-rings anywhere, they are a standard size.  Also, you could just use a blunt screwdriver and push them down into the recess in the valve cover; that will seal up the leak.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 24, 2016, 10:15:03 PM
Hey Jay.  Ok cool.  I will try pushing them down first  :-) 

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 26, 2016, 11:31:26 AM
Ok, I have crawled all over this engine top and botton.  I don't see any obvious leaks.  I can say with 100% assurance that valve covers are not leaking.  Took a light and saw it was dry all the way around.  Then on to the distributor.  Marked a few points so I can relocate it back perfectly.  Then I pulled it.  The o ring was on the distributor!  Good and bad news.  Then I thought about the stud for the distributor hold down.  Pulled it out and it did not seem to have any thread sealer on it ( or if its even supposed to)  for good measure, i added the sealer and tightened it back down.  The stud actually pertrudes into the crankcase so possible oil can seap out.  Then i noticed the o ring that came with the distributor actually was not a tight seal in the intake!  I think this might be the issue!  Need a beefier o ring for the distributor.   This might be an issue with the intake as it was Robert Ponds prototype intake.  Possible the hole for the distributor was machined a tiny bit to large.  This might be the only leak.  I think it was traveling which made it hard to track
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 26, 2016, 02:15:56 PM
OK Update.  I decided to see if after adding thread sealant to the distributor hold down stud, and a good cleaning of the distributor and O ring...  if we still had a leak.  Start getting things narrowed down one at a time.  Put all back together. Started the car, checked the timing (Still at 12 degrees initial) and let it warm up.  While it was Learned on this go around that I could still go down "1" on the accel fuel and it doesn't stumble or hesitate.

Got back into the driveway and popped the hood......  OIL!  The distributor area was all wet again and dripping down the side of the block.  Its almost surely the O ring.  Think I need a stlightly thicker one to seal it up.

Secondly, after trying to push the o rings around each spark plug tube down a little with a flat tip screwdriver....  All this did was allow more oil to splash out!  LOL  This time oil had forced out around each spark plug (mainly 6-8) .  So much so, it was on the valve cover, spray in the intake manifold, some was on the throttle cable bracket, and more importantly, Some sprayed to the back of the manifold and started to leak down the bell housing......

So my only problem at this point is O rings!!!  LOL 

For a small test, I had a wide rubber band.  I wrapped this around the grove of the distributor flat and then put the o ring back on.  I wanted to space the o ring out a millimeter or so (the thickness of a rubber band.  When I tried to reinsert back into the block, it would not sit flush with the intake.  So the o ring in there is too small, but adding a rubber band of thickness is too much?  Maybe I need the old fashion tubular o ring and not the wedge shaped one that came with the MSD distributor?  As for the Spark plug tubes, I am going to try and get another 8 O rings and just double them up.  They were not a problem until I needed to wrench down on the valve covers (due to shrinking cork gaskets).  As soon as I did, that opened up the space between the lip of the o ring and the copper spark plug tube.  These 2 things seem to be my oil leaks. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on October 26, 2016, 02:22:38 PM
You are on the right track with the rubber band behind the distributor O-ring, and I would stick with the wedge shaped one; that's what Ford uses.  With that rubber band behind it, it will be harder to push into position, but then it will seal when you finally get it in there.  Spray some WD-40 on the outside of the O-ring and try it again; if you can get it in there I'll bet that will solve your problem.

It's weird that you can't get the spark plug tube O-rings to seal; pushing them down always seems to work for me.  Adding a second one on each tube ought to solve the problem.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: sixty9cobra on October 26, 2016, 03:50:08 PM
You might have to jog the engine to get the distributer back in the oil pump drive might not be lined up perfectly.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 26, 2016, 06:15:11 PM
With the rubber band behind the o ring on the distributor, it slips into the oil pump shaft, but just does not seat all the way down flush with the Intake manifold.  Like Jay was saying, I could try to oil it up a bit to get it down a little.  Also, I would think if I placed the hold down on top of it and started to tighten it down, it may push down on it a little and seat it more?  I am going to go up to home depot tomorrow and get some additional O rings for the spark plug tubes as well as stop and get fresh oil and a new oil filter and do an oil change while I am down there.  I am about 50 miles into the engine and I read somewhere that its good to do an oil change about 50 miles in.

Also, Jay....  When do I have to check the rockers?  I do not hear anything weird, and seeing that oil is spraying out of the spark plug O ring gaps,,,,  Plenty of oil being sloshed around in there.  Do I only need to check them if and when I hear something weird?

Thanks again!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Barry_R on October 26, 2016, 07:08:14 PM
Working on a similar valve cover/spark plug tube o-ring issue right now.  Tubes were supplied with a thin cross section o-ring.  There are a couple different cross section thicknesses on O-rings - you/we need the thicker diameter ring material.  I have found a couple, just need to hunt down more of them.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on October 26, 2016, 07:32:27 PM
Wow - It sure seems like you're building crankcase pressure to have that much oil coming out so soon.  You mentioned that the PCV system is now gone. 

Are those breathers doing their job or are they somehow blocked?

Strange...  I could understand a few oil drips over several days, but that much up top in a few minutes suggests that it's getting pushed.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 27, 2016, 01:44:04 PM
The oil only seeps out at higher RPM's, not at idle.  The valve cover cork gaskets had to be tightened down quite a bit due to "shrinkage".  Due to this, the O rings were really touching the lip of the copper spark plug tube nor the bottom groove of the Valve cover to make a seal.  So much so that the oil slapping around from the rockers was just working its way up the spark plug tubes on onto the top of the engine.

I went down to Home Depot today and found a similar diameter O ring.  It is a little thicker than the original, but the only way you can tell is side by side installed on the copper tube.  I put the new "larger" O ring at the top against the lip, and the original smaller O ring at the bottom to seat against the groove in the valve cover.  Hopefully this will work.  I did notice that the O rings compress at an angle, so it seems the valve covers bolts are tightened unevenly, but not by much.  Each spark plug tube now has 2 O rings.

Then on to the Distributor.

Long story short, I took off the angled O ring that came with the distributor, and tried to place it in the machined hole in the intake .  It ended up being a slightly smaller diameter that the hole ( did not contact the sides of the hole)  When I put this wide rubber band into the grove and then put the angled O ring on top of it, it was still to thick to get into the hole.  I tried WD40 as Jay stated, but no luck.  Then I tried putting the angled O ring into the distributor groove, and then placing the wide rubber band over it (Like a blanket, so you can not see the angled O ring).  Then when I slipped it into the intake hole, it fit snugly!!!!  With a little push downward, it was just about flush!  So I made sure that the distributor was positioned correctly and then tightened down the tie down.  All back together!!!

Before I start it up, test the timing again and go for a test drive, I purchased a new Oil filter and another 9 quarts of 10W30 conventional motor oil.  I want to clean the engine off again on the bottom and do the oil change......  then off for the testing.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 28, 2016, 02:20:44 PM
Short video in 2nd gear post oil change.....http://youtu.be/IHdbZH-kCCI
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 04, 2016, 12:42:59 PM
Cleaned and dried the little "well" near the distributor.  Then packed TA-31 gasket sealer into that area.  Let it cure for 4 days.  Cleaned the oil drippingsfrom other areas below the possible leak area.

Idled in the driveway.  No leak.  Then went for another drive, maybe 2 miles.  Back in the driveway and the oil was back on the same areas.  Seems to only leak under load, so I cant find the leak while idling in the driveway.  At a loss on the leak, but the car runs well.  Still a little smoke at startup, and as Jay said, I need to put some more miles on the engine for proper ring seal.  I also read that there is a possible situation of excessive crankcase pressure until proper ring seat.  For now, all I can do is put some more miles on the car and see what happens.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on November 04, 2016, 01:29:10 PM
I do remember reading long ago that John V. (in SuperFord magazine when John commanded the last page as FoMoCo's official tech writer) carried a squirt bottle of something like Simple Green. After a road trip in his SOHC powered Galaxie, hauling his supercharged SOHC powered ski/drag boat, he'd need to clean up the engine engine bay. I guess having a lot more areas where oil could leak out is a real bitch with Cammers.

Here's John rig after a Detroit to Long Beach, CA drive! Insane!

http://www.hotrodhotline.com/feature/2010show/huntingtonroger/html/huntingtonroger_23.php
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 06, 2016, 03:39:30 PM
Ok, got back out there today to see if I could narrow down this leak.  After I had the engine warmed up, I popped the hood and manually held the throttle open around 2500 RPM.  I can see that the leak was not stemming from the distributor or its O ring ( possibly never was, but at least we have excluded it from possibility).  The area on the block where oil accumulates and is easy for me to see is down below te drivers side head where the oil filter adapter is.  Oil ended up pooling there again at 2500 RPM, and while looking at the distributor, no leak.

I can only assume that the intake manifold is leaking through the TA-31.  I dont see any leaks in the valve cover gaskets and I dont see anywhere else on the front cover it can be coming from.  I also think I may have figured out the smoke at cold start!  This oil leak ends up thinning out and running down the side of the engine.  When it does this, it runs down my headers and ( I believe) getting into the slip style fittings.  Possible that its getting into the exhaust and burning up down by the O2 sensor where each seperate exhaust pipe slips into the collector.  Just a guess, but the oil is definately all on the headers as well.  I dont see a way around pulling the intake manifold and re-sealing the whole thing up.  Just sold is house, so I am not sure if I can get to this here soon, but I have a brand new tube of TA-31 and a new set of the valve cover gaskets Jay suggested from (SCE?).
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on November 06, 2016, 04:17:15 PM
If it does turn out to be the front intake seal, I wonder why it didn't leak there on the dyno?  With the dyno pulls running the engine to 6500 RPM, it should have been leaking a whole bunch if that front rail wasn't sealed.  Very strange...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on November 06, 2016, 04:30:58 PM
Oil can travel in weird ways.
If it was mine I'd just run it and get some miles on it, watch the oil level and let the oil on the outside of the engine get a little dirt on it so you can trace where it's coming from by seeing fresh oil.
I wouldn't pull it apart just because you think it might be coming from some place.
Enjoy it for a while.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 06, 2016, 04:38:46 PM
Not sure.  Disnt smoke the first time I started it either.  Thats why I think te smoke is from oil getting into the slip joint in the headers.  Wish I could just find the point of the leak. Lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on November 06, 2016, 05:02:13 PM
Pretend its a  British motorcycle then its a indicator
that you have oil in the engine  ;D
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 08, 2016, 11:50:09 AM
Ok 100% sure about smoke out of the tailpipe.  Oil dripping from rear most header bolts onto the header pipe.  Then running down the headers to the slip collector and getting into the exhaust!!!  So ring seal isnt the issue, and I feel better that its just oil getting into the exhaust down "field".

The crappy part is even with the car running, I do not see where that oil comes from!  It is not coming from the valve cover gaskets.  It does not appear to be coming from the rear of the passanger head, and other that that, i dont see where else it could come from.  But can see it dripping off the rear most header bolt onto the headers and running down into the slip joint of the collector.  This is the cause of the smoke.  I spend 40 min under the car with engine running, and with a flashlight.... cant find the source of the leak.  Thoughts?

Drivers side leak only occurs at higher RPM's, so didnt find that one either.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on November 08, 2016, 12:41:23 PM
Jay might know this one: is it possible that one of the head's header bolt hole(s) traps into oil (I know, it didn't do so on the dyno but...)?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on November 12, 2016, 08:33:39 AM
Nope, the header bolts don't go into any oil passages. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: MRadke on November 12, 2016, 01:21:11 PM
Is it possible that too long of a header bolt could crack into oil?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on November 12, 2016, 02:41:06 PM
I don't think so, the main oil passage through the head goes right down the middle, and the oil passages up to the cam bearings and rockers shafts come up from that.  It would be possible to crack into water with a bolt that was overly tightened and too long, but not oil.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blykins on November 14, 2016, 03:18:44 PM
UV oil dye penetrant and a black light....
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 18, 2016, 03:20:37 PM
Hey Brent.  That's not a bad idea!  Thanks.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 18, 2016, 05:31:48 PM
As I am sure you all are as tired of me talking about a "mystery" oil leak/ leaks.....  I must push on!

decided to try something today to pinpoint the drivers side leak.  Tried plugging the little "pass through" from the top of the intake (where the distributor sits) down to the oil filter adapter (where the oil keeps pooling up after any kind of drive).  My thought was that the rag would be soaked in oil, and there would be no oil at all (or very little) pooled up on the oil filter adapter area.  After a short drive (literally up and down just my street), the rag was dry on top and the pool of oil in the oil filter adapter was there!!!  Sucks!  What this tells me is that the oil leak was/is not coming from the distributor area.

Oil still dripping all over the passenger side headers, and making the exhaust smoke out the back of the car.  and now a new oil leak that I did not notice before (because its pretty small).  where the intake manifold meets up with the cylinder head, oil has pooled on 2 or 3 of the areas.  Its hard to describe, but its pooling on the lip of where the intake meets the head.  you can see a little bit (edge) of the intake gasket all the way around the intake.  in 2 to 3 area, there is a little oil pooled there.  Now for the kicker......  Its bone dry all the way around the oil!  360 degrees!  The oil seems to have pushed up right where it pooling?

My thoughts (just to talk aloud) is the fact that there are 9 quarts of oil in this engine.  The engine also has no valley pan underneath the intake manifold.  There are 2 or 3 machined holes in the top of the block (in the valley) that are not plugged, and most likely are not supposed to be?  Oil may be being pressured through the valley holes, and through the intake gasket and then pooling where I see it on the outside?

I'm almost 100% sure that all of the smoke out the back of this car is due to a mystery oil leak dripping on the headers and then into the slip joint.

so back to 3 oil leaks.

Another fact....  the oil that leaks onto the headers on the passenger side and runs down the header into the slip joints......  some of it drips on the driveway and its PITCH BLACK.  I am guessing this is because it is being burned on the headers?

The oil that leaks out onto the drivers side (and pools on the block near the oil filter adapter is clear!  Other than Brent's idea to to the UV and black light trick, I am at a complete loss......  Then there is always pulling the intake manifold, and both valve covers to reseal and replace all the gaskets........  :0\

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: rowdy58ford on November 21, 2016, 10:24:15 AM
Put a vacuum pump on the motor!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 21, 2016, 11:22:44 AM
I am going to pull and reseal the intake manifold first.  Hopefully this will solve the issue as its the only place left oil can leak from.  Gaskets are ordered and hopefully will have them in a week or so
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: BH107 on November 23, 2016, 12:26:45 AM
Haven't been on in awhile so I haven't been watching the thread...

Sorry to hear about all of the oil leak troubles. It sounds like some of your oil may be coming from the front cover area. Keep in mind that there should be little to no oil in the valley because unlike a wedge FE that drains oil there, the only place for oil to come up is from the distributor and that definitely shouldn't be enough to come up to the intake level.

The fact that it leaks more at higher RPM would make sense too, as more oil is draining into the front cover with the increased volume, and then getting slung around by the chain it can get everywhere. I'm not sure if Jay used gaskets or just sealer on the front cover, but it might be worth trying to snug some of those bolts down as well.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: newfalconowner on December 15, 2016, 01:45:11 PM
hows things going now?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 17, 2016, 11:01:16 PM
Nothing new to report.  Since resealing the intake manifold, I have been busy moving.  Car is in storage.  I have been thinking about the EZ efi system, and sadly, with the vacuum the engine pulls, I dont think I can expect better idle.  Just too low ( FAST suggests at a minimum 10"..... and that might even give you problems)

I expect I will still have smoke on next startup because of residual in the exhaust system.  Hopefully all leaks are fixed.  Wont know until next run.

I was curious why it ran so clean at the original timing ( before I corrected initial to 12)  At an initial timing of 8, you can see in the first video I posted ( walk around with under hood shots and EFI screens) that the exhaust had no smoke at all.  Might just be coincidence, but after setting initial to 12 ( total of 30), the smoking began.

Either way, I am not happy with the EFI, and was thinking about dual Holley 660 cfm carbs.  For now, still working on relocation.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on December 18, 2016, 09:22:16 AM
I have to tell you, I think if you go carbs you are going the wrong direction.

If you said "the hand held programmer doesn't give me the control I need" I'd likely agree, but carbs are going to make that motor act more ornery down low.  Surely can be done, but if FAST had a way for you to do real programming with a different ECU, it'd change things.

First, is the ability just to adjust more, but second is the ability to go "open loop" at idle.  It turns the EFI into electronic carbs that don't self adjust, or you can pick the inputs to avoid the O2 sensor at idle, or the MAP sensor, etc, then when you throttle up, off it goes into closed loop

Next, not sure how your engine is set up, but at sole point advancing the cam may make the engine closer match the desired use rather than just diving off the EFI. Heck, even a little lash can help tame a cam, although I'd defer to Jay on whether there is room there

Your car is incredibly cool, Jon Kaase did one a while back with a Boss 9 stroker, his was cool too, but, I think he wimped out when he left off the EFI on a car designed for EFI
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 19, 2016, 08:23:21 PM
Hey Ross,

Yea, I have been going back and forth.  Either way, its going to cost me a bit of $$.  So after your post, I made a call to FAST (aka... Comp Cams  LOL).

I explained to them that I had the FAST Dual Quad EZ-EFI.  That it works beautifully in closed loop after the engine reaches temp.  Very satisfied in closed loop!

However, until the car reaches operating temperature (From cold start to 140 degrees)....  Its horrible.  Starts at 1000 RPM (as programmed), and within seconds, starts to drop in RPM's until its stumbling at 300-400 RPM......  then will die unless you stay on the gas.  And even when you stay on the gas to keep the RPM's at 1000...  its a very rough idle.  But again, once it reaches operating temp and the system enters "Closed Loop", its like night and day!  It stays at 1000 RPM, the IAC hovers around 25 , etc....

The FAST rep said it was strange.... (which I have heard about 20 times now on my many calls in to FAST)  LOL.

He explained that there is no way at all to make the EZ-EFI system I have go into closed loop any faster.  He also said it has very little ability to alter much.

I explained to him that starting over from scratch with a brand new EFI system would just be craziness!  But I read online that the Sportsman XFI (which is a more modern and adjustable product from fast) will work with my existing dual throttle bodies.  It will need the "Sportsman XFI " ECU, a new handheld/Display, all new sensors (Coolant temp, O2, etc) and a new harness.

I then asked the $1,000,000 Question......  If I send you my current handheld (which is the LCD one I just upgraded to) and I send you the EZ EFI ECU, Can I get any sort of trade in credit for upgrading to the Sportsman EFI.

Just as a side note, the Sportsman XFI has a self learning feature, but it also allows you to disable it and tune the engine with a laptop!!!  Solving the problem with engines with low vacuum as well as any cold start problems (which has taken over the internet as the topic of conversation when it comes to the old EZ EFI system I currently have).

He told me he would have to go a little higher up in the chain of command, but took all of my information and said he will call me back with an answer tomorrow.

I can honestly say that tuning an EFI system is well beyond me so even if they agree to this and I am able to upgrade to the Sportsman EFI, I will have to truck the car off to someone who can tune the car on a dyno or something.  But for tonight at least........  There may be hope in an upgrade.!

Keep you guys posted
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on December 19, 2016, 08:49:18 PM
Man you need to get that thing to Omaha :)

BTW, my hunch is that you don't need to get it into closed loop quicker, my hunch is you have a setup issue that is causing the open loop to not work properly.  Common errors are misadjusted throttle plates, misadjusted TPS, defective or (if adjustable) IAC motor.  Those things, after repair, then require retuning.

Now, that being said, the XFI is similar to how I tune, I build a tune that even accounts for valve opening events, then I get it to run as good as I can without ever enabling learning.  Once it runs great, then I enable learning to tweak for local conditions.

I do take periodic Orlando and Cocoa FL trips, how far are you from there?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 19, 2016, 09:00:48 PM
Hey Ross.  2 hours from Cocoa and 3 hours from Orlando.  Why would it run so perfect in closed loop?  If something was off in open loop, wouldnt it also cause issues in closed loop?  Just curious
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on December 20, 2016, 06:31:05 AM
Because it doesn't self adjust as much in open loop, it is essentially an electronic carburetor.

The term open loop itself indicates that it is not getting inputs from all the sensors, you can consider it "broken loop" if you look at them all being connected in a feedback loop.  Once it kicks into closed loop, it listens to all the sensors and adjusts.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 20, 2016, 08:55:35 AM
Ok , so let me ask you this.  When you set this system up initially, you have to wait until its at operating temperature first.  Then adjust the throttle plates until the IAC is at about 25.  Then you recalibrate the TPS.

Now assume its ok after warming up ( like it is now)

Now since closed or broken loop doesnt work well (cold start up until it reaches operating temperature), if I make adjustments to the throttle plates to get it to 1000 rpm ( while still cold), will that screw up what I calibrated when warm?  Or will it automatically go to the original calibration settings After it warms up?  Badically, i just want to see if I start changing things when cold so it idles nice, is it then going to screw up the way it runs after it reaches operating temp? 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on December 20, 2016, 01:50:47 PM
So first, I just used the term broken loop to create a mental model, that's not a real term.  It's open loop, like an open circuit.  So when it's cold, it's open, you might have had a typo there, but just to be clear.

Think of it like this, when you close the loop with someone, everyone understands each other.  Closed loop is all the sensors being monitored by the ECM, Open loop (when cold or other odd conditions for some systems) the ECM ignores some sensors

Second, the ability for an ECM to respond is based on programming as well as the limits of the mechanical or electrical parts.  To answer your question about setting cold, it depends.  If you open the throttles too much, then the IAC will not be able to drop the idle low enough.  If you don't open it enough, the IAC may not be able to hold an idle.  If you run too much fuel pressure, the ECM may not be able to lean it enough, if you don't run enough, it may not be able to adequately atomize and also may run out on top.

So, it is critical that you set up the throttle blades the way the instructions tell you front and back, then reset the TPS.  If it doesn't work well, then talk to FAST to see if you should open the rear TB's idle screw, or maybe adjust the front TB's rear plates, or if there is another means.

Additionally, how is cold start programmed?  idle speed - can you see the IAC value to see if it's maxed or stuck closed?  a/f mixture?  Does it have an enrichment shot to help start?  All are different, but unless you are a very lucky person, just adjusting plates to meet cold requirements likely won't help

FYI just to clarify (maybe)  Lets say you have a 1000 RPM idle.  You could do that with 50% of the air coming from the throttle plates and 50% coming from the IAC, or you could have is 10%/90% or 90%/10% in each case the extremes would cause a problem in some certain environment.  You need to know where your setup is supposed to normally operate, both cold and hot, and adjust accordingly.

Likely confused more.....sorry :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Heo on December 20, 2016, 03:05:58 PM
I don't know any thing about that particular EFI system but....
On a regular Bosch system, You have a Cold start system  that.
Both enriches the fuel and open an air valve that bypass the
throttle blade to give you higher rpm when cold.
If you have the problem you describe with the idle on the older
Bosch system. You most likely have a defective cold idle air valve. 
Ma by that's your problem ma by not
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 21, 2016, 06:00:36 PM
Hi Heo.  Nothing like that on the EZ efi unfortunately.  Talking with Ross and doing a TON of reading online to see whats happening.  Also still waiting to hear back from FAST on upgrading to Sportsman XFI unit. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Barry_R on December 21, 2016, 07:04:39 PM
Not wanting to add any confusion - - but my experience with the EZ-EFI systems has not been very rewarding on higher horsepower builds.  I would highly recommend an upgrade to a system that provides more user interface capability.  It will pose certain challenges to learn the program tables, but you'll get a basic understanding quickly, and the ability to tune each spot on the map individually and get instant response is worth every bit of the effort.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 21, 2016, 07:20:41 PM
Thanks Barry.  Working on getting a sportsman XFI system ( hopefully with trade in credit  lol)

Happy holidays everyone!!!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Leny Mason on December 25, 2016, 09:12:06 AM
Hi, Merry Christmas, I just ran it a problem on a customer's car and they installed the right O2 sensors's wiring to the left O2 sensor this took me a while  to figure this out. just a thought. Leny Mason 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on December 25, 2016, 11:51:02 AM
I did the same on my 489 when I did the EFI install, took me most of the winter to figure it out LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Leny Mason on December 25, 2016, 10:38:32 PM
Hi, That's a tough one but the O2 sensor's one was high and one read nothing. goofy Leny Mason
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 28, 2016, 10:28:12 PM
Thanks guys.  Only 1 O2 sensorwigh the EZ efi and its on the passenger side.

Still have not gotten a return call from FAST, so I will try them again tomorrow in regards to upgrading to thesportsman XFI.

Thank you all for throwing ideas out.  It helps, believe me 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Leny Mason on December 29, 2016, 07:43:03 AM
How does that work the other side may be running rich and fouling it up, sound's like they scrimped in the wrong place, most engines run way different from side to side. Leny Mason
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on December 29, 2016, 04:07:35 PM
All the TB injection kits with injectors in the throttle body itself only use one O2 sensor.  Its not like you can isolate the injectors either, they fog as a batch fire into the plenum and the design of the intake determines how balanced it is. 

No doubt some cylinders are lean, some rich, at least compared to a SEFI port injection, but they still seem to work very well
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 06, 2017, 09:12:09 PM
Hello All,

Sorry for not posting in quite some time, but it has been a "wild" past 4 months or so.  I feel like I have aged years.  LOL  Anyway, I wanted to bring you up-to-date on the EFI decision.  I have decided to pull the FAST EZ EFI dual quad system and replace it with an upgrade in which, as many have suggested, I will be able to modify and control the system.  I must say, the FAST EZ system came close.  It is a great system (no complaints on the system itself), as it was the engine that seemed to pose the greatest challenges just based on size, cam, application, etc.

I will be uninstalling the FAST EZ EFI system and putting it up for sale on both this site (in the classified Section) as well as on eBay......  Keep your eyes out for that in the upcoming month or so.

On to the EFI I am using as the replacement; I have decided to go with the FiTech power adder dual quad system.  In addition to the ease of install (and lack of real wiring), I spend 2 weeks calling the tech hotline and just asking questions.  After hanging up, I would write down all we had discussed and try thinking of more "what if's" and "how about's".  I must say the techs were very knowledgeable and each time I spoke to someone, they would verify what the previous tech stated as well as patiently answer all of my new questions.  Here is what I found out:

First, and most importantly since I think it's really my only issue with the Cammer engine currently.....  Vacuum!

The FAST EZ EFI requires a minimum of 10" of vacuum to operate correctly.  They recommend more, but they state very clearly that 10" is minimum.  After researching a few of the systems, FiTech's systems will work on as little as 5" of vacuum! 

Another factor is that the FiTech system has the ECU built into the throttle body itself.  This means that there is no harness (same as with the FAST system) to run through the firewall.  The only item that needs to be run into the cab is the handheld controller (which doubles as a laptop uplink so the EFI can be manually dialed-in, if necessary).

I also verified that the FiTech system is both a self-learning system as well as a totally manual system...Meaning you can manually get all the parameters to where you want them, or you can just let it run like the FAST EFI system and let it do all the learning.

The techs at FiTech suggest using the MSD Pro Billet distributor (this is the distributor I have).  I am able to lock out the Dizzy and then have the EFI system control the timing curve...this was another huge plus.

In addition, there are really only 3 or 4 items that need to be wired!  They supply a new O2 sensor, a coolant temp sensor, Distributor connection, and power/ground for the ECU.  Its just that simple. 

We also discussed my Fuel delivery system.  Have a dual pump in tank system, I have way more pressure than the EFI needs to work well.  I will need to retain my fuel pressure regulator (which I am currently using), but it will need to be plumbed up a little differently.  Currently I have the fuel flowing through the throttle bodies and into the regulator.  At the regulator, I have it set to 43 PSI with the FAST system.  From the regulator, it then goes directly back to the return in the tank.  They said with this system, I will need to set the regulator up to have one line in, one line out to the fuel return, and then a third line to the throttle bodies (which is regulated).  I have the 3rd port on the regulator currently fitted with a pipe cap (So my regulator can be configured to work the way they want it plumbed).

Finally, the FiTech system is not only fully configurable in every respect, it even has the ability to control 2 cooling fans separately (not a huge deal, but since I have puller fans as well as a monster pusher fan... another plus).  The way this is sounding, I think I will no longer need the toggle switches anymore to turn on the ECU, Fans, and ignition box.

And lastly (as it just arrived today), I picked up a matching Vacuum gauge to match the other gauges I currently have.  With the FiTech system, you need to tell it how many inches of vacuum you are really pulling.  Since I have vacuum assist brakes and only about 9" of vacuum when Jay Dyno tested it, I want to know exactly what's going on as soon as it starts.  This gauge will also be mounted in the AC vents using the Roush gauge cluster (and match the Oil Pressure, Oil Temp, and Coolant Temp.)

I will be placing my order for the FiTech system in 1 weeks time!!!!  I'll keep you all posted!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on February 06, 2017, 11:19:17 PM
The FITech system is gaining fast in popularity, I am considering using one on my 445.  However, let me know what you want for the FAST system.  I don't need two TBs, but might open things up for a later intake swap and/or Megasquirt upgrade.

However, I question their regulator discussion more as technique than a requirement.  If I read what you wrote correctly, any of the setups you described will produce the same pressure at the injector.  However, more importantly,  I thought the FITech had pressure regulators already installed in each TB?

If it does, and it should, you run line pressure to the input, no additional regulator, and then the other side of the TB just dumps to return, I am not sure why they'd want two regulators (or three actually with 2x TBs) in the system?  There should be no issue with dumping the excess pressure, all I can imagine is that they want to help you use your current system because the FITech can also run deadhead which means no additional lines to the TBs.  Whichever you choose, no big deal, but multiple regulators seems odd to me.

That being said, I think you will find some cool stuff with the timing control.  I crank my 489 at 10 BTDC, and then it immediately goes to 20 on fire up.  Allows the idle vacuum to be even higher, but no evils of starter kickback. Additionally, you can tweak cruise timing which also helps at low load.  All good stuff.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 06, 2017, 11:29:04 PM
Hey Ross,
You are correct.  The TB's do have internal regulators, but the tech said my dual pump setup is a little too strong.  The external regulator was to lower the pressure going in ( at which point the internal would lower it a bit more to the necessary pressure).  I will definately get back to you on a price for the fast Dual quad setup!!  Thanks again.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: newfalconowner on February 07, 2017, 04:47:58 AM
i had gremlins with my system for awhile, non starts, errors,  then run awesome.. replaced a lot of parts, msd box, distributor, sensors,etc.. ended up sending the ecu back to get checked out,, and the processor in it was bad.. warranty replacing it so should have it back next week.. hopefully it works a lot better.. I will take your new handheld lol :)

RIck
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 07, 2017, 05:04:51 PM
Hi Ross.  I sent you a private message
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on February 18, 2017, 08:08:39 AM
I talked to FITech this week.  I have to say I wasn't overly enthused. 

I wanted to know why they said you needed to run the external regulator, so I asked some generic questions that sort of shaped the conversation.

They said, up to 800 hp you don't need to go external.  Which seems odd to me, because the only issue I would see would be fuel flow and creating a dead head with the same inlet shouldn't change that, and actually, dead head systems can be fussy, and that is what they are essentially telling you to do from the injector's perspective post regulator.  Regardless, that's what they said

The part I didn't like was that they said that their laptop program is IN the handheld and can be only downloaded THROUGH the handheld, additionally, he hinted, but couldn't say specifically, if the program was any different.  What he did say is he could "see no reason anyone would want to do that" the handheld does anything anyone would need. 

They also said there was no way I could see the laptop program, not even a Beta, a video, or a download as a favor.  So I am a bit put off, this shouldn't be a secret.

The system may be awesome, but I am leery when their tech guys give answers like that.  I hope it works, but I was not very confident of predicting tunability or even understanding what it could do after talking to their tech.

BTW, if/when someone buys one that has the ability to download the laptop program, if it builds ZIP file that you could share, I'd love to see it
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: 2ndgear on February 18, 2017, 09:09:01 AM
FYI  I also talked to FITech many of different times with some of the same questions that you already asked. Not beating on them but every time I get a different tech, which is find. The same questions are asked and different answers, so that tells me 2 things is 1 they dont have enough time with this unit yet or I have not reached the right person yet. I read all I mean all of the questions and answers on there site and all of the reviews on face book and they do have some growing pains. It seems as of now more people are unhappy then happy with getting the tune right but at the end with a lot of phone calls they seem to get it dialed it. Maybe if a person could get into the laptop to fine tune the system may be more friendly. Just my thoughts. There seems to be a lot of problems with there remote fuel commander in which when using this you dont need a return line, just a vent line. The system seem to be easy to install and that is more then I need for a street car. (445 in 69 stang) I am on the fence yet but I did look into the Holley Sniper and so far not to many reviews yet. That system is quite new yet. About the same money. Less boost (if needed) and needs a return line installed in the gas tank. Also with the FITech you need to put the oxygen sender in the header or just outside of the collector and have min. of 18 inches of exhaust flow after the sender to get a correct reading on the air fuel ratio of your tune ? Whats with that? I got to give there system a little more time to get over some of there growing pains. Hope this helps some. This is what I found out and just my opinions on this. Will keep digging.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Leny Mason on February 22, 2017, 08:50:21 AM
Hi,I have the Holley EFI I have not run it yet but there is only one person for information Andy Star, so  that makes me feel better he get's to know you and your wants he is very smart on these Jay knows him or has talked to him, give him a call see what you think. Leny Mason
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 26, 2017, 04:02:08 PM
Hey all.  Been a few months, but I am back down in FL now and took a look at the Saleen.  If you all remember, I recently changed out the intake manifold gasket due to the small oil seepage.  The oil would slowly accumulate bwtween the front backing plate, the block and the intake manifold (this is a small triangle space right next to the distributor).  From there, the oil would drip down onto the drivers side (and supposedly the passenger side) making a mess and causing the smoke issue.

So long story short, after the manifold gasket swap, I stopped the oil leak!!!.......  but now coolant has taken its place!  Same small amounts in the same spot!!!  LOL  After consulting Doc-Brown, I am just going to re-do the intake manifold gasket again.  My other thought is this....  before the car started smoking, it ran beautifully with the Fast EZ efi (at idle).

Then after the smoking began, problems arose.  I am sure with all of the leaking oil dripping down into the header joints, the O2 sensor must be black and oily!  Perhaps my idle problems are due to the O2 sensor becoming fouled with the oil residue?  Not sure why it runs well in closed loop (as I am unsure of the O2 sensors part when the system is closed loop) (?)

Also, I wanted to quickly clarify the external regulator conversation I had with FAST.  I went back over my notes and this was the issue:

I have a return on the fuel system along with Dual walbro fuel pumps (total at about 510 LPH).  I told the tech that I did NOT want their fuel command center (No room for it!).  He said to be safe, keep my external fuel regulator, run the pumps to the external fuel regulator, then run a line from the external fuel pressure regulator to the EFI- (Which has its own fuel pressure regulator built in (Redundancy?)), finally, keep my fuel return line from the external fuel regulator to the return on the fuel tank (exactly like it is now).  I think it was the fact that I was not going to use their fuel command center and I still wanted to keep my fuel return line.

Also, In speaking with Doug today over at precision oil pumps (gasket order!), he was saying that Robert Pond has been working on his own EFI system and that it's really a nice piece!  I went to Mr. Ponds website, but its not on there.  It might be worth a call.

So here is the current plan.....

1.  Redo the intake gasket over again and get the oil and coolant to stay inside!

2. Hook up the vacuum gauge

3. Pull the O2 sensor and see if I can clean it without wrecking it (or possibly just replace).

4.  Try the FAST efi system again if all above steps go accordingly.  If EFI ststem does not work, then new EFI system!

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on February 26, 2017, 08:59:18 PM
Sounds good, but just to clarify, their command center has NO place on anything that has an EFI pump.

Their command center is designed to use a low pressure carburetor fuel pump to fill a reservoir, in fact, that reservoir uses a Holley needle and seat to maintain level.  Then the command center pump feeds the high pressure to the EFI.  It's for carbed vehicles to be able to run their EFI without an EFI tank or pump

Because you have EFI from the factory, there is no reason to have a command center, and I stand firm that they somehow are recommending a fix to a problem you don't have with your setup. 

If I were installing the FITech, I'd use their regulators, or I would block their output and dead head it from a junction, but I'd be hard pressed to have 3 regulators in a system, hoping the fuel pressure stayed where I wanted it
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Drew Pojedinec on February 26, 2017, 09:16:10 PM
Man I love carburetors.....
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on February 27, 2017, 04:07:17 PM
Me too!  ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: BH107 on February 28, 2017, 01:15:30 PM
Hey all.  Been a few months, but I am back down in FL now and took a look at the Saleen.  If you all remember, I recently changed out the intake manifold gasket due to the small oil seepage.  The oil would slowly accumulate bwtween the front backing plate, the block and the intake manifold (this is a small triangle space right next to the distributor).  From there, the oil would drip down onto the drivers side (and supposedly the passenger side) making a mess and causing the smoke issue.

So long story short, after the manifold gasket swap, I stopped the oil leak!!!.......  but now coolant has taken its place!  Same small amounts in the same spot!!!  LOL  After consulting Doc-Brown, I am just going to re-do the intake manifold gasket again.  My other thought is this....  before the car started smoking, it ran beautifully with the Fast EZ efi (at idle).

Then after the smoking began, problems arose.  I am sure with all of the leaking oil dripping down into the header joints, the O2 sensor must be black and oily!  Perhaps my idle problems are due to the O2 sensor becoming fouled with the oil residue?  Not sure why it runs well in closed loop (as I am unsure of the O2 sensors part when the system is closed loop) (?)

Also, I wanted to quickly clarify the external regulator conversation I had with FAST.  I went back over my notes and this was the issue:

I have a return on the fuel system along with Dual walbro fuel pumps (total at about 510 LPH).  I told the tech that I did NOT want their fuel command center (No room for it!).  He said to be safe, keep my external fuel regulator, run the pumps to the external fuel regulator, then run a line from the external fuel pressure regulator to the EFI- (Which has its own fuel pressure regulator built in (Redundancy?)), finally, keep my fuel return line from the external fuel regulator to the return on the fuel tank (exactly like it is now).  I think it was the fact that I was not going to use their fuel command center and I still wanted to keep my fuel return line.

Also, In speaking with Doug today over at precision oil pumps (gasket order!), he was saying that Robert Pond has been working on his own EFI system and that it's really a nice piece!  I went to Mr. Ponds website, but its not on there.  It might be worth a call.

So here is the current plan.....

1.  Redo the intake gasket over again and get the oil and coolant to stay inside!

2. Hook up the vacuum gauge

3. Pull the O2 sensor and see if I can clean it without wrecking it (or possibly just replace).

4.  Try the FAST efi system again if all above steps go accordingly.  If EFI ststem does not work, then new EFI system!

Not sure about Pond, maybe he is working with Borla on their new setup. The Borla one has been making its rounds at a few shows, but retail price is close to $10k so its going to be a hard sell!

(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/surfinsd/IMG_0782_zps6gvbbwgp.jpg)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: babybolt on February 28, 2017, 02:26:04 PM
I've always use Hylomar on both side of most gaskets and then pop in two of the compressed "stuff" pellets in the radiator to avoid leaks.  Seems to work for me.  On the plus side, years later the parts come apart better with the Hylomar.  I really, really dislike scraping silicone.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Joey120373 on March 02, 2017, 03:21:06 AM
Not sure I can add anything that might help with your tuning issues, but I'll try.

Apologies in advance if I am repeating other posts,  man this is a long thread....

First, closed vs open loop .

Generally speaking, when the ECU is in closed loop it is using the O2 sensor to adjust the air/fuel ratio.
When in open loop, it still can see the O2 sensor, but it doesn't do anything with that info.
That's about the long and short of it.

Open loop is there to give the sensor time to heat up ( it needs to be around 750C to operate ) and also because you purposely want the engine rich on cold starts.

 Now obviously, a self tuning system can only self tune when it is in closed loop, that's when it knows it's getting valid info from the O2. During open loop, it's still a trial and error thing where you have to tell it to go richer or leaner, think adjusting the choke ona carb.

If there were a "self tuning" carb that used a modern computer, the computer would dial in the jets for you, but you would still need to pop the air cleaner and twist the choke stove to get the cold starts just right,if that makes any sense.

So, the fact that your engine runs fine once it goes into closed loop tells me that your air fuel ratio is off. I'm not familiar with your system, so I don't know what parameters you have control over.
But I would look for a cold start, after start, cold compensation, warmup enrichment or choke type setting, and try leaning it out. If it gets worse, then fatten it up.

I can speak from a lot of experience here, cold stars are probably one of the most frustrating things to tune on a fuel injected motor, because you get one shot at it, then the engine is warm and doesn't act the same way on subsistent partially warm starts. You have to let it cool all the way down and try again.

As far as the O2 getting damaged by oil, generally is got to be a massive oil burner to hurt the O2, the element inside sensor is heated and glows red hot within about 30 seconds of start up, so it does a pretty good job of burning off what oil might get on it. Now coolant in the exhaust is another matter, that will kill an O2. So my advice is, if your O2 sensor readings look good, your sensor is probably just fine.

More advanced systems will let you add or subtract ignition timing based on engine temp, not sure yours lets you do this, but that generally only adds or subtracts a few degrees either way, more advance when it's cold, might retard it a few degrees if it gets really hot. From what you describe i doubt it has anything to do with temp related timing adjustments.

Not sure if this helps, or is even leading you in the right direction, but I hope it does.

Joe
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on March 04, 2017, 06:59:31 PM
Funny thing, but I was actually in the process 5 years ago in getting a Auto Cad person to try and make one of those "Borla intake manifolds" above, but in order to use the Gene Greenberg (?) 58mm oversized Weber Carbs he produces.  After meeting with 2 Auto Cad people, taking all the measurements (off of my Robert Pond intake for the angles and port alignment, and speaking with a foundry......I got too overwhelmed by the $$ and the number of units necessary just to make one run.

I think that the SOHC with 4 separate 58mm Webers on top looks awesome.  I have a stick drive which I have pictures of the Weber intake for a SOHC that sold for $10,000.00 on ebay years back.  The seller took detailed photos from every angle and top and bottom.......  One day if the right tech comes along, I would love to have one prototyped (or 3D printed?)  LOL

Keep you all posted, Gaskets are on their way, TA-31 is already in hand, and afterwards, as Joe stated, I may give the FAST EFI 1 more go and try to alter the cold start fuel. (Since it runs perfectly once warm already).  Otherwise......  New EFI system!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on March 09, 2017, 06:20:58 PM
OK I was able to get the Gaskets that I ordered as well as the TA-31.  In heading out to the garage, I already had it in my mind that I was going to take my time and actually break this simple task (simple but time consuming) into 2 days.  Below are some photos of the blocks mating surfaces with the intake manifold removed.  There was traces of coolant in the oil that was pooled in the block valley, and there was also some in a few of the intake ports (which I immediately sucked out with a shop vac.  There was no coolant at all on the drivers side nor in any of the drivers side intake ports (which is odd since I first started noticing the coolant leak on the drivers side of the distributor.....  but we will get there.

Started off by pulling the intake Manifold, bringing it over to the bench and starting the slow process of scraping the old gasket and TA-31 from it.  After this, I then went around the whole intake with brake cleaner and a scotch bright in order the surface completely free of oil, dirt, gasket/TA-31 residue.  Once this was completed, I stood the intake up on its end, and blasted the entire thing down with the break cleaner (in order to get any scraps that may have fallen down into the water jackets or intakes.

With that completed, I set the intake aside to dry (although brake cleaner dries almost immediately).

On to the Heads.  Before I began on this, I took clean shop towels and plugged all of the openings into the block (Distributor, drain back holes in the valley, intake ports on the heads, etc,).  I did not want to get any scrapings down into there and cause more trouble.  From there. I wend around the whole mating surface area in much the same way (as to not bore anyone) as the intake manifold.  Since I always seem to have a jinx in the areas on the edge of the heads (With the SOHC heads, they hang over the block and create a wedged shaped area that is usually plugged with TA-31 and wedged shape cork gaskets.  Its very difficult to get a razor blade in there and get it completely clean, so I probably spent about 1 hour in total on just those 4 wedged shaped nooks.  Then (with all of the holes still plugged), I went around the whole thing with brake cleaner and scotch bright. (See below).  Finally I took the shop vac and cleaner out the whole valley and intake port areas and made sure everything was free of debris and coolant (what little There was).

Finally, I made sure all was covered for the night and closed down the garage.  Tomorrow will be the time for sealing the intake up.

2 things I found that were interesting (dangerous word ).  The fact that there was a little coolant in some of the passenger side intakes (the cylinders with the intake valves closed were the ones where I could see some coolant pooled on top of them.  However, there were 2 cylinders where the intake valves were open and I am assuming there was some coolant that got down into the cylinder (Did not seem like much though- Maybe a tee-spoon?)

2nd interesting thing is the fact that the intake manifold bolt holes had to be cnc'd a little (ovaled) in order to get the intake to bolt correctly to the heads.  There is very little surface area between the bolt hole and the water jacket on the intake.  A little worried, but since this only started to drip replaced the coolant after I replaced the gaskets last time, I am assuming it will be fine with a little more TA-31 "attention " in these areas.

Tomorrow I will be following a few tips I got from Jay on installation as well as draining all of the old contaminated oil and replacing with now stuff.  Fingers crossed this go around  :0)



(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/IMG_0660_zpse9dsjtnw.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/IMG_0660_zpse9dsjtnw.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/BE5893E7-5F17-49DC-A955-4841913CEAA5_zpsqyi9837m.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/BE5893E7-5F17-49DC-A955-4841913CEAA5_zpsqyi9837m.jpg.html)

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/IMG_0664_zpsofnc5cst.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/IMG_0664_zpsofnc5cst.jpg.html)


Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on March 10, 2017, 01:02:04 AM
I hope you were really careful in cleaning up afterwards. Scotchbrite material always leaves shreds and particles of the pads behind, and that stuff is really abrasive!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on March 10, 2017, 05:03:51 PM
Hey Doug.  Yes sir,  I plugged all the holes with shop towels and between brake cleaner, a shop vac, and more shop towels, it was literally clean enough to eat off of.

So this is how it went today.  As stated above, even though I had it clean yesterday and prepped to go, I gave it an additional once over just to be sure.  After about 10 minutes, I began by coating the bottom side of the gaskets with TA-31.  Light but total coverage on the whole surface, but with extra coverage around each water jacket.  In putting an additional bead around each water jacket area, I would then lightly run my finger in circles around it to make sure that the TA-31 had even and full coverage.  After this, I placed it onto the head and lightly pressed down all around each intake as well as the water jackets.  I was sure that I had good coverage around the water jackets because when I pressed all around, I began to see the TA-31 squish out slightly.  Luckily it squished out evenly and completely all the way around, so I was sure it would seal (at this point).  Then on to the other side in the exact same way.  Finally, as placing the head gaskets took about 5 minutes each, I spent the next 10 minutes taking an exacto knife and evenly cutting the wedged shape cork ends off of the rail gaskets.  After I had each one nipped off, I covered them all the way around with TA-31 and pushed them under the corners of each head where they over hang on the block rails.  At this point, the intake gaskets had been sitting for about 10-15 minutes and were on pretty well.  I then covered the top side in the exact same manner as the bottoms (paying extra attention with the TA-31 to the water jacket areas).

Finallly, I ran a "generous" bead of TA-31 all the way across the back rail as well as the front rail (to be clear, there is now no cord gasket on the rails with the exceptions of a cork wedge at each corner.  With help this time, I placed the intake manifold down slowly into position.  Jay gave some advise as to make sure the distributor is installed and centered before bolting it all down.  With the Distributor in, and seated evenly, I placed 1 bolt on each side just to get started (not tightening them down, but just getting them started).  It was at this point, I wanted to check and make sure everything was OK before finally bolting the intake down for good.  Upon inspection, front looked good, however when I got to the back, I saw that one of the triangle cork gaskets was pushing out!  I tried to push it back in, but with no luck.  With quite a bit of frustration, I realized I would have to pull the intake off to replace the cork wedge.  As soon as I pulled the intake, I realized I would need to "touch up" the intake gasket especially on the rails and the water jackets.  So I did just that.  I put an additional bead around each water jacket and using my finger made clockwise circles to ensure it was even.  I then put an additional bead across both the Front and Rear rail.  Finally I put the intake back down and bolted it all into place.  Feeling like it could have gone better, I decided to try running additional TA-31 on the back mating surface (where the intake sits on the rail).  I would put a dab on my index finger and run it back and forth to make sure if even there was the tiniest gap or pin hole, that I would have filled it in before the gasket becomes hardened and oily after the first run.

On a positive note, The intake lined up perfectly with the bolt holes (both times) and the distributor fell into place quite easily and is all lined up with the marker lines I drew to mark the timing.

I have not yet installed the throttle bodies as I wanted to let it "breath from the inside too for maximum drying of the TA-31.  I am not sure if this is necessary, and I am also not sure how long I should wait before it is sure to dry.  I was going to give it until Sunday or Monday and then reinstall the Throttle bodies, Fuel lines and wire harness.

If this works and has no leaks (Please GOD let there be no leaks), I would say that my mistake the first time I re-did the gaskets would have been the prep.  I cleaned it 200% better and cleaner this go around, so hopefully this works.

I don't know why this car fights me every step of the way.  LOL  Fingers Crossed
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: newfalconowner on March 10, 2017, 06:20:55 PM
I wish you the best of luck this time around..

Mine just keeps getting gremlins every step of the way and feel like ripping of my efi.. got a new ecu, and ran fine for one day,, now back to no start.. still going to try and figure it out,, but loosing patients quick
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on March 10, 2017, 06:22:56 PM
You have a fast system too correct NewFalcon?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: newfalconowner on March 10, 2017, 06:24:17 PM
yes, but I made the intake, multiport tunnel ram
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: newfalconowner on March 10, 2017, 06:38:34 PM
ive been called inventive, a pioneer, and insane for using GM based stuff.. starting to believe in the insane bit

(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff267/new_falcon_owner/falcon/008_9.jpg)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Drew Pojedinec on March 10, 2017, 10:09:04 PM
Cobra,
Permatex #3 Aviation sealant on the engine side of intake gaskets and it'll slide off when removed and still seal well.
It's a liquid with a brush and doesn't harden.  30 seconds with a towel cleans it off..... much nicer to use inside an engine.  Good luck.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on March 15, 2017, 07:56:02 PM
Ok, got my oil filters today and did an oil change.  Good news is that I did not see any coolant in the oil.  I have noticed that the car has not really been driven at all except for around the street a few times a few months ago and the oil is Dark black!  I thought it would be slightly clearer, but unsure.

Filled with coolant and new oil, and I do not see a coolant leak under yet.  Just need to fill with gas, hook up the vacuum gauge and give it another go!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on March 16, 2017, 02:21:58 PM
Wanted to jump on here and post real quick.  Filled the car up with fresh 93 octane today.  Wanted to run the fresh fuel through the lines, so I turned the key on so the fuel pump would kick on.  To me, the pump didnt sound quite right, so I left it on and went to check the fuel pressure regulator under the hood.  To my amazment, the fuel pressure was at 80 PSI!  In the past, it was always locked down at 40 PSI.  Checked the turn screw to see if it had come loose and increased the pressure, but no... still locked down tight!  No Idea.  Only thing I can think of is that this whole time, only 1 of the walbro fuel pumps was working..... and now, possibly the 2nd one sprang to life?  Doubling the fuel pressure from 40 to 80???  Just kind of interesting for sure.  Either way, readjusted back to 40 psi and locked it back down.  Last item is to install the vacuum gauge and give her another try with a fresh tune.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on March 17, 2017, 07:28:49 PM
Was out there again today doing a few checks before firing it up.  I actually read the guide that allows me to check the IRM's using the handheld.  IRM's are the electrical interference getting to your ECU.  From what I can find online, anything less that 10 is supposed to be ok per the tech line.  When I managed to locatd it on my computer, I am showing 6 as my IRM value.  According to the internet, since I am less than 10, I should be fine and leave it alone.  However, my thinking is any electronic interference is not good!

I actually read a really good post of someone who figured out all the bugs on FAST's EZ efi system and posted them.  He stated that by wrapping the Yellow Wire with aluminum tape ( and also the O2 wire for good measure), he was able to get hos IRM's down to 01 to 02.  I may do this and recheck since all it will cost me is aluminum tape.  If not, Jay suggested a method to suppress electrical noise.  I will try and post the article below as it seemed better written that the FAST Manual!

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/dfi-ecm/685422-problem-solving-ez-efi.html
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: newfalconowner on March 17, 2017, 08:08:43 PM
great article, thanx, what was Jays suggestion? i have 2 msd noise filters im going to install, 1 for the msd 6al box and other for the fast ecu
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on March 17, 2017, 10:24:42 PM
That was his suggestion!  They arent that expensive so thats good.  Are you able to check your IRM count?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: newfalconowner on March 18, 2017, 07:18:16 AM
I didn't know till I read that link. but I will today
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on March 18, 2017, 07:29:58 AM
Interesting stuff, but aren't you running well and just need to tweak the cold start?

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: newfalconowner on March 18, 2017, 11:54:39 AM
my RMI is at 02, but my MSD power wires are ran down the right side door sill, and the Fast ECU is ran down the left side door sill.. The ecu harness comes out the center of the firewall. The distributor wiring from the msd box does go near the ecu harness., so I will cover that with foil then cover with wire loom. I will still put the MSD noise filters at the box and ecu.. I should be good.

I also have a new complete wiring harness in the car,, so no old wiring and its all ran sorta neat under my dash and down the channel of the right door sill to rear and out the right side firewall but will run it lower along the frame instead of the right engine bar.. Wont make that much difference but will look neater.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on March 23, 2017, 03:23:02 PM
Hello All.  Today was a "Good Day".  I will start the story with the fact that when I went out to the garage today, there was still a small puddle of oil (again, about a teaspoon's worth).  Looking above, it still seems to be coming from the same location (the junction between the front plate, backing plate/engine block, and the valve cover.  I wiped up the puddle and snugged down the bolts again (don't really want to wrench on it as they could strip the threads).  I wanted to do this incrementally each day and recheck each morning for oil dripping.  At least it seems that this is not the 1 and only leak I am dealing with.

Now on for better news.  I checked the ECU again today to look at "IRM's" or electrical interference.  It is one of the indicators listed on the handheld when you go into diagnostics.  This morning, we are still at a reading of "7".  In reading the article I linked on a previous post, the gentleman who posted said that the FAST EFI tech said anything under 10 would be fine...... however he was having issues lower than that.  By the way, we check the IRM's with the ignition on, the MSD ignition box on and the ECU on....  The car is not running.    So here we are now with an IRM of "7".

In reading this  persons post, he suggested shielding the harness from electronic interference using Tin-Foil tape.  As I am unwrapping the tape in the garage, it hit me.  The person writing in the post most likely did not have a SOHC nor HEMI engine.  So his plug wires probably run straight down from the Distributor to the sparkplug area on a normal motor ( above the header flange?).  The SOHC motor has all 8 wires sitting on top of the engine basically forming an electromagnetic "nest" around the throttle bodies.  I thought to myself, this would be great if it worked.  So I began by wrapping the Harness itself starting right up against the throttle bodies and going all the way down to where the harness enters through the grommet in the fire wall.  Then I wrapped the Yellow wire (which he brought up in the post) which is the Tach output lead from the MSD ignition box.  For good measure, I pulled a few of the sensors (like coolant temp and I believe MAP sensor) and rerouted closer up against the throttle body under the oval air cleaner (Basically so they were as far away from the plug wires as could be.

With the ECU and Ign. box on, I hit the start button and the car literally roared to life!  It had 0 trouble even at a cold start as well as the fact that other than the smell of running a tad rich, the car had no smoke coming from the exhaust!!!  I let it run for maybe 1 minute before I remembered why I actually started it!  I went into the handheld to the Diagnostics screen and the IRM's were at Dead "0"!!!  I was ecstatic.  I went back to the Main screen and we were almost perfectly hovering around 13.5 AFR and the RPM's were at 1100 (but working their way lower). 

At this point I did not want to press my luck, so I shut her down.

Other than checking on the oil drip, I just now need to make sure the timing is set correctly (since I pulled the distributor for the intake manifold gasket swap) and also recalibrate the TPS since I disconnected the throttle to remove the intake.

I definitely do not want to jinx it, but with a small tweak to the Idle AFR, I bet I can even get the smell to dissipate a little and we are golden.  Hoping this was it and that I do not really need to get a new Fuel Injection system.  As they say, " A penny earned...."
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on March 25, 2017, 10:59:32 AM
Here is the video of the first cold start after redoing the intake.  I have not tweaked the timing nof recalibrated the TPS at this time.  This is how it was running as soon as I pushed the start button:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aWk0s5Gl1jc
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on March 25, 2017, 11:18:44 AM
Nice job beating back the gremlins Jason!

Here's one for you on those pesky oil leaks.  I bet you're running synthetic (Group 4) oil in the beast.  That stuff has an unbelievable ability to weep through cork gaskets...

This may sound like sacrilege, but I would try a high quality conventional oil.  You'll save money while tuning in your A/F ratio (throwing away cheaper black oil), plus you may find a lot less oil dripping on the floor.  I had trouble with rocker cover leaks on my old truck until I switched back to conventional oil.  Now - almost nothing!

You're going to be putting very few miles on that car, so I wouldn't be afraid to run dino oil in it forever. 

JMO - Bill
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Leny Mason on March 26, 2017, 07:14:26 AM
Good for you it's been a long hall sounds like you found the problem, Cool. Leny Mason
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: TomP on March 31, 2017, 01:38:20 PM
I agree with Bill, I've switched synthetic back to dino oil and leaks stopped. I think the big issue is we can't get modern style gaskets like LS and Mod motors use for our FE's
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 08, 2017, 08:50:58 PM
Hey Guys.  Sorry for the late reply.  Jay (and others) had suggested conventional all along, so I never went synthetic.  I found the oil leak finally.  It was the backing plate, Front cover and valve cover junction.  After cleaning it well with brake cleaner, I applied TA-31 sealer to the outside to try and seal it up.  It was a small leak, but once the oil got hot, much like water, it found its way into all sorts of inconvenient places (Headers).  So I can now say the oil leak is fixed and with it the smoking tailpipes!

Now, today, I decided to tackle the gauges.  I had hooked up the oil pressure gauge before running the engine months ago, but the others have been sitting in the car unhooked.  Today I went in with renewed energy and decided to hook up the remaining gauges (Vacuum, Coolant temp and oil temp).

Skip ahead 2 hours (nothing really threw me for a loop), and I turned the engine over and again....  started right up.  At 1000 RPM's, I get 10" of vacuum!  Perfect as the EFI system needs 10 to work  LOL

The coolant temp is redundant since the EFI system has a temp sensor to control the fans, but it also came on.  Oddly, the coolant temp crept up to 210 degrees when the EFI screen was still showing 150 degrees.  Large difference, and after doing some reading, I think it may be the ground?  I looped all of the power and ground wires in line.  starting with the oil pressure gauge, I then piggy backed off it its power and ground to feed the Coolant temp sensor, then likewise from the coolant temp to the oil temp.

The oil temp clicked to life as well, but I was not getting a reading.  The lowest reading it has is 140 degrees, and although the coolant temp on the EFI (not the gauge) was showing it at 150, the oil temp was not reading.  In reading on Auto meters website, this is fairly common.  They say you will not really get a reading until you drive the car.  It stated that oil does not heat up as quickly as the coolant.  They say if you go out and drive the car for a while and still do not get a reading, then also check the ground.

So there we have it.  No oil leaks at the moment, Vacuum gauge showing 10" of vacuum at idle. Timing checked and rechecked and I am at exactly 12 * BTDC at idle with the 18 * stop bushing in.  Oil pressure starts out at 75 PSI at a cold start, but goes down to 25-30 when the car reaches temp, Coolant gauge and the oil temp gauge are working (but may require ground wire tweaking),  fuel pressure it still at 43 PSI with the key in the on position, but drops a few PSI when the engine starts (because it has a vacuum reference).  Electronic interference is still at "0" with the aluminum tape shielding.......

Last thing to do is fiddle with the AFR's but they should be small tweaks since it was really responsive when I was driving it last.  Right now, I lowered the Idle AFR to 13.8 from the stock 13.5.  Still runs perfectly at idle (not in gear).  I will set it a little more rich (13.7 or 13.6) if I have problems in gear.  Then tweaking the Cruise and WOT (getting as close as I can and then using the Accel fuel option on the hand held).  Really coming together now.  Thank you all again for all of your help.  Any idea, opinion, tidbit of knowledge.....  it all really helps when learning :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on April 09, 2017, 02:03:54 AM
Any idea, opinion, tidbit of knowledge.....  it all really helps when learning :0)

Yes, some quality video of the car cruising or going down the road, so we can properly, um...evaluate how it's running ;D

Glad to hear you're getting it all sorted out.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: preaction on April 09, 2017, 03:05:55 PM
Jason, thanks for taking the time to post so much information about your project as Im sure it will help countless other members who take on one of these engines !
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 10, 2017, 03:05:35 PM
No Prob!  I took it out for a spin today, but unfortunately my wife did not want to be seen in it so no video  LOL

I have the AFR for idle at 13.5.  Idles well, no black smoke from the tailpipe at idle when not in gear, and does not stall out when throwing it into neutral from any gear.

I have the Cruise AFR at 14.0 (this is the value the EFI computer came with stock).  It cruised well with no noise or popping.

The WOT is set to 12.7 (Also the stock value from the company).  When I accelerated, I started to get a small hesitation and popping (I believe the Accel fuel was -2?).  I put the Accel fuel to +1, and the hesitation /popping seemed to go away.

So as it stands, I think 13.5 is fine for Idle, and 14.0 for cruise is good........  What do you all think about the WOT in conjunction with the Accel fuel feature?  As I understand it, Accel fuel is supposed to be a small tweak to an already pretty dialed in AFR.....  What would you suggest for a WOT value as well as a value for the Accel fuel?   Ah-hem......ROSS!  lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on April 10, 2017, 05:22:12 PM
https://www.enginebasics.com/EFI%20Tuning/AF%20Tuning.html

Think your WOT is already right on the money.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 10, 2017, 05:31:18 PM
Thanks Bob
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: newfalconowner on April 10, 2017, 05:59:54 PM
I managed to start my car again with the taller plenum I made, and started the car, idled great at 900 rpm, but the AF was at 9ish. I didn't give it a chance to warm up yesterday and go thru the learn curve but hopefully that changes when I get a chance to let it run for abit and hopefully stop smoking too..

Seems your on your way to figuring it out,, that's awesome
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 13, 2017, 11:31:31 AM
OK guys.  Another update.  So with the Fast EZ efi, you wait until the engine is up to operating temp (Around 170 per the instructions).  Then you adjust the IAC to be around 15-20.  The last time I did this was a few days ago.  Today when I turned on the car, it was way off again.  Don't know how this happened, so I waited for the car to get to 170 degrees, and adjusted the IAC to be bouncing between 15- 20 (Idle AFR at 13.5 and Idle RPM at 1000).  Satisfied with this, I wanted to recheck the fuel pressure.  With the car running, the fuel pressure gauge reads 40 (because of the vacuum reference).  With the car off, its spot on 43.

So off I went.  Idle AFR is 13.5, Cruise AFR is 13.7 and WOT is 12.5.  Accel fuel is -1.  I drove the car up and down the area I am in now.  Each pass was 1.5 miles.  I did notice that the car started to run better with each passing mile, however at each turn around, I would notice that the Idle RPM's were around 1500 give or take 100 an the IAC was stuck on 5 (Which I believe is closed).  Not sure how this could change from the idle setting I just set in the garage.  The only thing that would have changed during the first few miles was that the temp went up to about 200 degrees for the coolant, and about 190 degrees on the Oil temp.  SO on my next pass down the road, I pulled back up to the garage, and with the car still running and the temps about the same as just mentioned, I readjusted the IAC so that my Idle RPM's were bouncing right at 950-1000, IAC was at 20 (would go a little higher and lower, but seemed to be right at 20.  Satisfied and now curious, I pulled back out and drove on for another 5 or 6 miles.  This time, checking the handheld at each stop or turn around, my IAC was perfectly at 20 whenever I pulled the car out of gear.

When I got back into the garage, I was satisfied with the way it was running (as it was only getting better as I drove), and the temps all seemed normal (to me).  With the car in the garage, I wanted to recheck the fuel pressure again.  with the car OFF this time, and expecting it too read 43 PSI as it did only an hour before, I was at like 37?  WHAT?  my only guess is that I have a clogged fuel filter or something along those lines?  So I loosened the nut and readjusted to 43 PSI.... and tightened back down.

So I can actually tell you what's going to happen tomorrow....  Car with not start!  I think that when I have the IAC adjusted at operating temp to be perfect, the blades are closed to much for a cold start.......And the fuel pressure?????  Anyones guess.

On a better note, wife watched again from the balcony....  no black smoke at all on hard acceleration!  Last time I much have just blown out all the old carbon!  So running clean at this point.

This is the link to the video I took as soon as I finished driving today and was just about to garage it up again (Disregard the Autometer coolant temp gauge as the sender must be broken... the handheld shows the correct temp.  The oil temp and the vacuum gauges are correct.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiwGWPH30VQ
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 13, 2017, 03:55:23 PM
Ah Geez.... leaking oil again!!!  Back to trying the oil dye. Im starting to hate the mystery leak  lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: newfalconowner on April 13, 2017, 05:44:36 PM
good luck on the leak. sounds good though. I need to try and get that handheld for mine
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 13, 2017, 10:59:19 PM
Thanks.  Yes, that handheld is definetly more user friendly!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Leny Mason on April 15, 2017, 03:41:24 PM
Hi, your charging voltage is only 12.8 to 13.2 as I watched your video seems low it looked like it tried to excite then shuts off. Leny Mason
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 15, 2017, 10:14:43 PM
So....  still battling the oil leak at the moment.  I know where its leaking, but due to this type of engine, its not so simple to fix.  I have a slow leak at the timing chain cover on the passenger side.  I tried snugging down all of the timing cover bolts slowly and incrementally (So not to strip anything).  Sadly, it did not work.  My last ditch effort was to try an oil additive (Bar's Leak rear main seal) that says it works well on timing cover gaskets and seals.  As per the directions, let the car idle for like 15 minutes, and then I drove it for 30-40 minutes.  Says that within 200 miles, the leak should stop.  If not, I am only out like $7.00.

Lastly, I believe I may have a "stuck" IAC valve on the throttle body.  Why you ask?....  So with the car warmed up (above 170 degrees), I adjust the throttle blades so I have an IAC of about 20-25 with an idle RPM of 1000 (base timing at 12*).  Runs beautifully!  When you let the car sit over night and try and start it cold, the IAC maxes out at a value of 180 (Meaning its in the all the way open position), but the idle is rough and its more at the 650 to 700 RPM range.  If I press on the throttle a tiny bit, (so lightly that the Throttle position sensor still reads no throttle) to get the RPM's to 1000 to 1100.....  The IAC goes directly to the value of 20-25!  If you do this until the car is warmed up (at or above 170 degrees), it will stay at 1000 RPM idle and the IAC will stay at 20-25 on its own.

So this means to me that I have the IAC exactly where it should be, but for some reason, with a cold start, the computer is telling the IAC valve to open because its not getting enough air (so the screen shows an IAC valve of 180), but its not really opening (hence the rough low idle?).

In talking to the FAST techs , the IAC valve on the FAST system is just your run of the mill GM LS engine style IAC (say off of a 2001 Chevy Camaro).  A replacement is only 75 to 80 dollars, but I want to make sure this is it.  If it is, when I start the car, the IAC value should start a little high and come around to the 20-25 value while keeping RPM's at or a little above 1000.  I replaced the original air filter on this engine with a brand new one because the original one was black with soot from when I was working on this car (before Jay's rebuild)....  If the air filter was that sooty, possible that the IAC is dirty as well and possibly sticking?

Anyway, other than that, I swapped out the AutoMeter temp sensor for the coolant temp gauge today.  Will take it out again tomorrow (most likely) to get a little more of the Bar's Leak additive working its magic....

Keep you posted.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jmlay on April 16, 2017, 08:11:06 PM
YOu can buy an IAC from Summit for $30... I would just pull it out & hit it with some throttle body or carb cleaner & work it in and out a bit before buying a new one. In ~ 2005-6 or so my 01 Lighting IAC stuck closed. I cleaned it & have not touched it since, works just fine. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 17, 2017, 07:21:13 AM
Jmlay, I did just that yesterday!  It seems to have corrected the rough idle on cold start.  We will see though.  It was solid sooty black,  lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 18, 2017, 07:06:35 PM
ok guys.  lol  While out letting the ECU learn, I ran out of gas!  lol.  It was kind of a shock as I had recently put 10 gallons of gas in the car, but I guess with idle and the stop and go/ and Medium throttle.... 

When I got home, I was curious what the stock 4.6 ltr the Saleen came with had for Gas Mileage....  19 MPG.  So I could only imagine what I must go through both because its now a 7.0 Ltr and also since the computer is "Learning" (So searching richer and leaner as I drive).  What Also doesn't help is that the stepper motor on my gas gauge died (Which if you look up this year car is a HUGE flaw.


Anyway, here is where we are right now.  It drives and drives well (aside from the pesky oil leak).

My AFR's are as follows:

Idle: 13.5.....  I tried to go a little leaner and started to hear a tiny pop of misfire.  I think it likes 13.5

Cruise:  13.7......  It cruises well.  I feel a tiny TINY but of stumble, but I also think that is because its the computer "Learning" when I hit cruise.  It dips a little leaner and also goes a little richer as it tries to build a map.  My guess is that it should go away as I drive it more, but when it gets a bit more stable in cruise, if it is still doing it, I will adjust then.

WOT:  12.5 (Accel Fuel of +1)....  I have not done anything with this value as when I put my foot down, it goes.  As you can see, I adjusted the accel fuel as before that, there was a tiny hesitation due to a lean condition when I floored it.  the accel value of +1 helps richen up a bit at the time when the throttle blades instantly open and now the transition to 12.5 from the Cruise AFR is (I think) flawless.

One thing I did notice was a lean condition when I shift into neutral.  I actually was reading about this because I was curious if it was normal and found that its called "Run Out"?  Say I am in 3rd gear and cruising.  Then if I chose to stop the car by placing the transmission in neutral or downshift, the AFR goes real lean for a moment before going back to a target AFR.  From what I found online, this is completely normal (Please correct me if this is wrong).  It was said that its normal because the car does not need fuel when you are stopping. 

Also, when going over an article on Engine builder Magazine, I found some information on Target AFR's for mild performance engines.  Their information helped as I see that my Target AFR's are within range with their scale:

Idle:   14.1 to 13.4  (Mine is 13.5)
Cruise: 14.1 to 13.4 (Mine is 13.7)
Power: 12.2 to 13.5 (Mine is 12.5)

I am also assuming that if I am not getting any black smoke (Running too rich) out the tailpipe, then my richer AFR's are not loading up the cylinders and removing the oil .  Also, if I am incorrect about this, please let me know what you think.  I have watched Barry's YouTube channel and he recently built a Cammer engine with the same stroke and CI as mine, and his seemed to have an AFR (at idle) of around 14 from what I could see on his dyno.  Did not sound like it was misfiring and he actually had readings for the left bank and the right bank.  For some reason, mine just likes 13.5  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on April 18, 2017, 11:28:14 PM
Jason, I wouldn't get too hung up on the numbers.  Tune so that the engine runs and drives well.  If that happens to be at 13.5 cruise for your engine, that's just fine.  And 12.5 under load is a very good number, I think...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 24, 2017, 11:40:10 AM
Think IaC is sticking again, so ordered a new one on FAST techs suggestion.  In slightly better news, Gave my autometer coolant temp gauge a dedicated ground, and now it works perfectly.  Still have the pesky oil leak, and I think I have it (again)...  timing cover can not be tightened any further.  Lat thing I can think of is that its leaking underneath the valve cover gasket.  The cork gasket is dry, so maybe where the timing cover, valve cover and block all meet.... leak?  Will take a while, but planning on pulling the pass. Side valve cover, give the surface a good clean, and on with a new gasket.  Keep you posted!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 24, 2017, 07:11:28 PM
OK, was kind of dreading it, but I went out today to pull the passenger side valve cover and see if I couldn't find that leak!!  The reason for my dread is the fact that in the Saleen, the engine does not sit in the center of the engine bay.  It is bias to the passenger side.  This means I have plenty of room for "fiddl'n" on the Driver side (access to bolts, wires, headers.....  and on the Passenger side....  NONE.  In fact, I had to disconnect the OEM computer and harness, Pull the battery and battery tray, and also pull back all of my aftermarket wiring and tape it up out of the way, just to be able to see the areas I need access to.  Then its a bunch of rachet extensions with swivel heads.....etc.

Anyway, after pulling the valve cover, I did a quick inspection of the old gasket as well as the mating surface on the head.  The cork gasket was "tacked on" with some of the TA31 all the way around (so I had a tiny bit of cleaning to do with a razor and some acetone).  At the point of interest (where the front cover butts up againes the backing plate/block and the valve cover from above (Sort of a T shaped junction), I did notice that the gasket was a little more "wet" then the rest.  Also upon closer inspection, I saw that the backing plate is slightly higher then the front cover.  I think this might have been the issue.  I think what happened was that the backing plate sticking up only a few millimeters higher that the rest of the mating surface might have let some oil out when it got hot and thin.  Anyway, after a bit of careful cleaning (making sure nothing fell into the head), I took a little bit of TA31 and smoothed out the area on both sides of the "raised backing plate.  my hope was that the TA31 would fill in both sides where the backing plate stood higher and thus when the valve cover gets clamped down again, it would have a more flat surface.

The on to the valve cover gaskets.  I have a set of the original cork ones as well as a newer set recommended to me by Jay (forgot the name of the company at the moment).  These newer gaskets are not supposed to shrink as much with repeated heat cycles.  Also, they are unique as they are a composit of both cork and traditional gasket material (almost like Felpro)  to ensure the gasket stayed put, I put a skim coat of TA31 (paper thin) on the valve cover and set the new gasket on.  While it set, I temporarily put the bolts through the holes just to ensure that the gasket stayed in alignment as it dried.  After about 15 minutes, I placed the valve cover/gasket combo back on and tightened it down.....  another hour of replacing sparkplugs, harnesses, computers, etc and I am back together!  I am going to wait until I have the new IAC installed before I give it another go.... so It will have a few days of drying.

As a side note, the rockers that were on the back of the lobe all seemed to be in good condition!  I wanted to make sure that some had not worked their way loose (Not that I have heard anything while running).  So all seemed well on the Passenger side so far.  Hopefully this takes care of the oil leak (Fingers crossed!).  The last issue will be the IAC issue.  Hopefully a replacement unit fixes that.

A few days ago, I pulled the IAC valve (all black and sooty) and tried to clean it with break cleaner.  After reinstalling it, it seemed to work perfectly at the next fire up and cold idle.  Then a day of 2 after that, I tried to fire it up again, and it just stayed at 180 (wide open) in open loop and even in closed loop!

Tech said almost sure its bad and that its a super common issue.....  Tons of Bad IAC's...  LOL  Stay Tuned~~
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jmlay on April 25, 2017, 09:36:54 PM
Brake cleaner will not dissolve the crud. Get some Berryman carb or throttle body cleaner. Soak it down good and scrub what you can with a toothbrush!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 27, 2017, 11:02:38 AM
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/IMG_0699_zpscyvvy01x.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/IMG_0699_zpscyvvy01x.jpg.html)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on April 27, 2017, 12:19:58 PM
Not good, way too sooty black.   :(

Also, I'd stick to conventional plugs with a single ground strap. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Joey120373 on May 12, 2017, 12:46:24 PM
are you sure the IAC motor is actually moving the right direction? i.e. when it says its at 180, is it actually fully open?

what you described sounds to me like its back-asswards, and closing the valve on cold starts.

GM stepper motors have a couple different wiring pin outs, and since its just a stepper motor, all you have to do to reverse the direction of the motor is swap either of the coil-a or coil-b wires.

i ran into the same issue years ago on my old mans car, different efi system, but the same type of motor.

its a simple check, and fairly simple to fix if thats the issue.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 14, 2017, 06:15:55 PM
Hey Joey.  The IAC works as it should.  I tested it today and can now hear it opening and closing accordingly as I adjusted the throttle blades.

So on to today.  With the new IAC "motor" in, I wanted to test it out.  So long story short is that it worked!  the IAC worked as it should.  I checked the IRM count and it was at "0".  So after about 10 minutes, all was still working well.  Just before I shut it off, I wanted to check the IRM count again.  Unfortunately it was showing "3".  Now according to FAST, this is not bad.  I don't like it.  SO .....  on to SummitRacing, and I purchased 2 MSD Capacitors.  One I am going to put against the MSD Ignition Box, and the other I am going to use on the FAST ECU.

I also purchased a replacement wire that runs from the MSD ignition box to the MSD distributor.  This replacement wire is from MSD, and it specifically is a noise reducing wire (has a ground wire integrated into it.)  It will ground to the chassis.

The only other thing I can think of is the plug wires.  Not getting much noise (IRM of 3 and only sporadically).  I will try putting the conventional plugs back in as well. 

I was also able to lower the AFR today from 13.5 to 13.7.  It seemed to take it fine, wasn't missing or making any noises.  I think I was fouling plugs with the 13.5 AFR at idle....  but it seemed to run fine.  Runs well now at 13.7, but I guess only time will tell.  :0)

This FAST system seems really, really sensitive to electrical noise....  I don't know why FAST says its ok if its lower than 10 count, but I would definitely shoot for 0!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 25, 2017, 03:30:29 PM
More "long story short"?......  I'm so glad you asked!  OK so After installing a brand new IAC stepper motor. It helped a little, but I was still getting the rough idle (in the low range of 400 to 500 rpm).  This is always after the IAC is set when engine was warmed up and the TPS recalibrated....  Cold start the next day, and it always happens.

Installed the MSD Capacitor on the MSD Box.  Prior to the install, with the Aluminum shielding tape used, I was getting IRM (Electrical noise) of only occasionally (3).  But almost always it was at 0.  With the Capacitor installed, it seemed to stay at (0).  But still.....  Rough Idle. 

While the rough idle is occurring (when engine was cold), I would check on the IRM screen, and it would still be at absolute (0).

So in the end, it was not engine noise.....  and it was not a bad IAC stepper motor.

The last time I started the car for the tests above, I noticed that there was little bits of fuel that were working their way up the vacuum line to the Auto Meter Vacuum gauge.  How in the world is fuel going AGAINST vacuum??  LOL


Called the Auto Meter people and they said, "Not Sure, Call the People at FAST"

Called FAST during my lunch break today to discuss the fuel going up my vacuum line (even though the vacuum gauge is working and registering vacuum)....  He had no clue and made a good point.....  "That goes against all physics!"  Its been years now of talking to the fast techs, so I always like to keep throwing my usual issues at them as an, "Oh by the way....  I also have been experiencing...."

Today I told him how the vacuum gauge registers like 7" to 8".  The guy literally busted out laughing!  It was contagious (even though I was on the butt end.... or so it felt like).  He explained that 8" is the stopping point for this system.  8" and below, and the system will JUST NOT WORK!  They always require 10" or more.  So I asked him, "Can you tell me exactly what are the symptoms of too low manifold vacuum"?  And he went on to explain that if there wasn't at least 10", you would go through the computer to set your IAC, and it would run well when hot (possibly as vacuum increased a tiny bit when the engine heated up) and then when you go to start the car the next day, the IAC would be way off because you were not meeting the vacuum requirements for the system to work

******CHECK*****

He also stated that it may run to rich! and possibly running rich may cause fuel to back up into the vacuum port I am using for reference on the Gauge.

******CHECK******

I private messaged Jay a few hours ago, but after I hit send, I wasn't quite sure what answer I wanted him to give  LOL  In the end, even if I screwed with the initial timing to get the idle vacuum up a bit, I would be just at the cusp of what the system requires and also now would be at a point with ignition timing that was not ideal as Jay tested it on the Dyno.

I did it...... I bit the bullet and ordered the Fitech Power Adder 2 X 4 EFI system.  As stated a few pages ago (Back in December), you have the ability to lock out the Distributor if you wanted and control timing through the computer, or not!  It also has 4 settings for your cam at initial set up.  Cam setting 4 is for Wild cams with between 4" to 6" of vacuum. So perfect for this car as I get about 7" to 8" at idle out of gear in park  lol.

As upset as I am with the FAST EZ EFI system for not working, I have to give it some credit for running and driving for the last year or so that I have been using it.  I am going to uninstall it, package the whole system up nicely, and I am going to list it for sale on this site in the classified section soon.  2 throttle bodies, upgraded touch screen handheld controller, original handheld controller, ECU, the Coolant temp sensor, the Wideband 02 sensor ... the whole kit and caboodle!

I will let you all know when the new system arrives  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 25, 2017, 04:42:40 PM
Hope the new system works out, Jason.  FYI fuel will go up the vacuum line because of pulsing in the intake manifold.  It is not a steady level of vacuum at all times, what your gauge reads is an average vacuum level.  Search for a video of Jon Kaase sticking his finger in an intake manifold when it is running, and you will see what I mean...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on May 25, 2017, 06:15:01 PM
Could the cams be advanced at all on your setup to get a bit more vacuum?  Not sure if you have room with compression or valve clearance, but you likely could get some vacuum back with a little earlier cam timing
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: newfalconowner on May 25, 2017, 07:59:24 PM
you sure you want to sell that new handheld with the fast setup,, not sell seperatley? lol//

to bad it hasn't worked right for you, I think my motor is right at the borderline for vacuum as well,, I hooked a gauge to it last week and it had 10 if I remember right..
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 25, 2017, 08:47:00 PM
Guy said 10 would be fine....  8 and below was No Mans Land  lol
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Leny Mason on May 30, 2017, 07:30:21 AM
Jason, did you get that guys name it sounds like he is the only technician there that knows what is going on there, ask for him from now on. Leny Mason
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 06, 2017, 08:15:23 AM
Alrighty.  The new EFI system came the other day and I am in the process of slowly uninstalling the FAST dual quad system and cleaning, Bagging, labeling, etc......  So I can get it up for sale here soon.

I did (in order to not have stuff falling into the intake)  just install the 2 FiTech throttle bodies. 

I had a quick question.  The FiTech system has the ability to control timing (assuming you hook it up that way).  The question is:  How does it control timing?  I know the timing at idle right now (at 1000 rpm idle) is 12 degrees.  Does the EFI know that?  LOL

Or do you have to input the base timing when setting up an EFI system (any EFi system I am sure that controls timing).  Then the System takes your word for it and uses your what base timing you input as the base?

I have been reading on it, and it would seem that it works off of vacuum.  When the idle starts to fall, it results in a fall in vacuum.  Then the ECu compensates by (retarding?) the spark to get RPM's and thus vacuum back up?

Can someone take me to school on this one?  I am thinking about locking out my distributor and allowing the FiTech system to control timing.  I just want to understand it first  LOL

Thanks again!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on June 06, 2017, 10:33:20 PM
Jason, there should be a parameter in the software that you can modify, so that the timing map in your software will match the reading of your timing light.  See my most recent post in the dyno mule thread on this board to see how that works with the MS3-Pro system.  I'm sure the Fitech system must have something similar, if it does indeed control timing.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on June 07, 2017, 06:44:36 AM
Or do you have to input the base timing when setting up an EFI system (any EFi system I am sure that controls timing).  Then the System takes your word for it and uses your what base timing you input as the base?


Mostly this.  In fact, it doesn't care what your initial is.  It is just additive.

That being said, electronic timing control is a real good thing.  In my 489 I have initial set at 10 BTDC (the required reference point for the reluctor wheel that drives the injectors), as soon as it fires, the computer adds 10 to 20 BTDC at idle  That sure smooths things out without fighting the starter.  If you have that option, and an easy way to lock your distributor, I'd do it
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 07, 2017, 07:43:29 AM
Thanks Jay and Ross.  I am able to control the timing with FiTech, and After reading your most recent post Jay, I understand.  The ECU doesnt read my base timing, i set it in the ecu, and then when I start the car, i recheck with the timing light to make sure it reads what I entered on the computer.  It also looks like this should be done at like 2000 rpm's so you get a solid reading to verify.  Once this is set, the ECU controls the spark.  I think I will do it this way.  Thanks guys!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 13, 2017, 07:52:38 AM
Alrighty.  Fast EZ EFI Dual Quad system has been uninstalled!  I have it posted for sale in the classified section for anyone who is interested.  I think I listed it for a little less than I originally thought I should sell it for (or what its worth).  Basically brand new with no real mileage at all to speak of.  Upgrades touchscreen handheld, Harness still even has the paper tags on it!  PM me if your interested.  Its in perfect condition.  Just make sure you have 10" of vacuum or more (As the manufacturer suggests!)  LOL

Thanks Guys
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 16, 2017, 08:39:56 AM
Slow progress because I have had to order all the little bits and pieces for hooking up the fuel lines to the throttle bodies.  Last night I got the last parts I was waiting for and was able to hook up the fuel cross over line that connects both throttle bodies together in line.  I also had to call the guys over at FiTech to ask a question about fuel filters.  The FiTech system requires a 30 micron filter.  The fast system required an inline filter as well, but no one knew what the micron rating was!  Just to be safe (and since it was like only $20), I just ordered an inline fuel filter from FiTech which is 30 Micron.  I actually had a call in to them to ask if I was able to leave the FAST fuel filter inline and then add the FiTech 30 micron filter inline as well.... just closer to the throttle bodies.  After a few days, I got the reply that it would be fine as long as the fuel pump(s) I have could handle the pressure.  My in tank pumps are more than up to the task!  Overkill actually.  So I placed the additional fuel filter in line about 8 inches or so from the inlet of the throttle body.

Then on to testing.  The FiTech system runs at 58 PSI (FAST ran at 43 PSI), so turned the key on, and looked for leaks.  Not at the start, but this is at 43 PSI still.  So I went over to the Fuel pressure regulator, and adjusted to 58 PSI and then locked it back down.  After another round of flashlight checks, I smelled fuel!  It was actually dripping out at the FiTech fuel filter inlet I just installed, so I slowly snugged it down a little more and that one stopped.  Then noticed it was dripping slowly on one side of the fuel crossover line that connects the throttle bodies.  Again, slowly snugged it down until the drip stopped.   Luckily, I let it run for another 2 or 3 minutes to make sure the system would stay "Drip Free" under the new higher pressure....  And it did.

The last part of this swap is just installing the 02 sensor, coolant sensor, connecting the handheld and finally locking out the distributor so that the ECU will control the timing (this I will do last).  Hope to make a little headway this weekend.  It has been pouring rain here for the last 3 weeks straight!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blackthunder1970 on June 21, 2017, 03:35:11 AM
hi
which one did you buy the 625s or the 1200s
thanks
barry
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 21, 2017, 07:04:08 AM
Hi Barry,

It was system #300064.  I think its the 1200 Power Adder system. 

Best Regards,
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blackthunder1970 on June 24, 2017, 09:15:26 PM
hi jason
thanks for that
thinking of going the same way
waiting to hear of your testing
cheers
barry
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Drew Pojedinec on June 26, 2017, 07:13:51 AM
Jason, when you are ready lemme know and I'll just send you a carburetor.
:P



Seriously, you are getting close, keep on plugging away at it.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 28, 2017, 09:02:13 AM
Seriously!  LOL

OK so a few days ago, I decided to finish up the FiTech install.  After speaking with Jay and watching a few videos on Distributor Rotor Phasing, I decided it was time to lock out my distributor, install an adjustable rotor, and phase it.

With the simple part being removing the springs, weights and busing and locking out the distributor....  I started there....  And there is where I ended!  After removing the springs, weights, and stop busing, I loosened the pin on the stop collar and tried to lift the shaft, turn it 180 degrees and put it back down into position where it can be locked out.  Unfortunately on almost all but a few distributors, you have room between the gear and the collar to just lift- turn- and lock.....  The fords FE does not apparently.  With the few that don't, you are just supposed to push out the gear pin, slip off the gear, and then proceed to lock out.  When done, you slide the gear back on and put the pin back in....  With the exception being the FE distributor by MSD?  LOL  gear has a pin, but it was pressed on! (had to send the distributor back to MSD when I ordered the steel gear to have them install it.)  So after realizing that I had to get the gear slid down a little before I could lift and spin the shaft, I wrapped the gear in leather so I could hold on to it.... and then so I didn't damage the shaft, I used a rubber mallet to try and hit on the shaft a few times to just move the gear down a few millimeters!......  Well, even the rubber mallet distorted the shaft!  Oh-Crap #1.  It did manage to move the gear down enough for me to lift and spin the shaft 180 degrees and then lock it out.  After placing it in the locked out position, I replaced the lock nut and then proceeded to lightly 1 to 2 taps at a time try and tap the gear back down a few millimeters (I did this using the same rubber mallet, but a socket to fit over the end of the shaft and evenly press on the gear.,....  After 5 to 6 cycles, the gear was back down, but it seemed that the light "wacking" snapped the threaded stud and the lock washer off of the top of the distributor (Oh Crap #2)...  From this point, I had warped the shaft at the bottom (with my rubber mallet) and broken the threaded stud on the top of the distributor( purely through vibration???).....  TIME TO ORDER A NEW DISTRIBUTOR!!!!

Called MSD and explained.  Asked to order a new Pro Billet FE distributor (Pre locked out!!) with a new Steel gear pressed on......

And with just my luck, I was added to the Back order list (# -23 to be exact!).  They are hoping to start manufacturing them again on the 30th, but are not sure.  I should receive it some time in the next few weeks...  possibly..... fingers crossed.

This continues to be a learning experience (Greek Tragedy)  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 05, 2017, 09:38:23 AM
OK all.  I received the new distributor from MSD.  It was sent Pre-Locked out and with a new Steel distributor gear pressed on.  Before placing it back into the car, I installed the new MSD rotor which I am able to phase.  As per the instructions, I placed the rotor in the middle of the adjustment (meaning I can "advance" or "retard" the rotor tip- For lack of a better word since I understand that it has no control on the timing itself).  Then using my original marks and photos I took of the old one coming out, I tried installing it back in.  For the life of me, I could not get the rotor to line back up with the marks I made.  I tried slowly turning the oil pump shaft with the tool I have.....  no luck.  This went on for about an hour.  I must have adjusted and refit the distributor maybe 50 times.  Then it occurred to me that their might be slight differences in the new rotor that I am able to phase vs the fixed rotor that comes with the distributor(and what was on there before I took it out).   I could get very, very close, but not exact. 

My last 2 choices were being very close after the mark and having to "Retard' the rotor to get it to line up, or getting very close before the mark and "advancing" the rotor to get it to line up with the mark.

I chose getting it very close BEFORE the mark and then advancing the adjustable rotor to get it to line up with the mark.  My thought process on this was such:

When the distributor is running off of springs and weights, as you increase RPM's, the inertia from the spinning distributor retards the rotor (I think).  I thought that since the distributor is now locked out and in addition, the EFI will now be controlling spark, there will be a delay in the spark (since it has to go from the MSD ignition box to the ECU and then to the distributor (Rather than straight from the Ignition box to the distributor).  I thought that if anything, when I look to see if the rotor will need to be phased, it will most likely need to be "retarded" a little to ensure the spark is firing pretty close to the tab on the distributor cap.  The way I have it now, I will have plenty of adjustment if the cap needs to be retarded a little, but none of the rotor will need to be advanced (which I doubt if I am thinking about this correctly).  Thoughts??

Also, I took the old distributor cap and using a step drill but, put a hold in the cap right behind the #1 post.  This way, After I verify my base timing is correct, I can swap the caps and then shine my timing light into the hold on the cap to see if the rotor will need to be phased at all.

Let me know what you guys think.  Thanks again.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: sixty9cobra on July 05, 2017, 07:30:36 PM
When the weights expand from inertia it advances the timing not retards it. That's why its called centrifugal  advance. Just like vacuum advance.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on July 05, 2017, 07:48:13 PM
OK all.  I received the new distributor from MSD.  It was sent Pre-Locked out and with a new Steel distributor gear pressed on.  Before placing it back into the car, I installed the new MSD rotor which I am able to phase.  As per the instructions, I placed the rotor in the middle of the adjustment (meaning I can "advance" or "retard" the rotor tip- For lack of a better word since I understand that it has no control on the timing itself).  Then using my original marks and photos I took of the old one coming out, I tried installing it back in.  For the life of me, I could not get the rotor to line back up with the marks I made.  I tried slowly turning the oil pump shaft with the tool I have.....  no luck.  This went on for about an hour.  I must have adjusted and refit the distributor maybe 50 times.  Then it occurred to me that their might be slight differences in the new rotor that I am able to phase vs the fixed rotor that comes with the distributor(and what was on there before I took it out).   I could get very, very close, but not exact. 

My last 2 choices were being very close after the mark and having to "Retard' the rotor to get it to line up, or getting very close before the mark and "advancing" the rotor to get it to line up with the mark.

I chose getting it very close BEFORE the mark and then advancing the adjustable rotor to get it to line up with the mark.  My thought process on this was such:

When the distributor is running off of springs and weights, as you increase RPM's, the inertia from the spinning distributor retards the rotor (I think).  I thought that since the distributor is now locked out and in addition, the EFI will now be controlling spark, there will be a delay in the spark (since it has to go from the MSD ignition box to the ECU and then to the distributor (Rather than straight from the Ignition box to the distributor).  I thought that if anything, when I look to see if the rotor will need to be phased, it will most likely need to be "retarded" a little to ensure the spark is firing pretty close to the tab on the distributor cap.  The way I have it now, I will have plenty of adjustment if the cap needs to be retarded a little, but none of the rotor will need to be advanced (which I doubt if I am thinking about this correctly).  Thoughts??

Also, I took the old distributor cap and using a step drill but, put a hold in the cap right behind the #1 post.  This way, After I verify my base timing is correct, I can swap the caps and then shine my timing light into the hold on the cap to see if the rotor will need to be phased at all.

Let me know what you guys think.  Thanks again.

Your spark is going to swing nearly 50 degrees and certainly 40 on a regular basis, there is no one perfect place for the rotor with that much change and you do not have to mechanically compensate for the speed of electricity.  It'll be fine, phase it based on your EFIs instructions and go.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 06, 2017, 07:48:33 AM
Thanks.  All hooked up and just have a few questions about timing control in to the FiTech techs.  Then it will be time to give the new EFI system a "whirl"

Thanks again
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 06, 2017, 09:34:23 AM
OK here is a question I came up with because the FiTech Manual does not go into specifics with regards to timing control.  This is the timing control screen that need inputs:


Distrib Base deg =

VR Advance 4000 =

Idle Advance =

1100 45kPa =

3000 45kPa Cruise =

6000 45kPa =

WOT 1100 95kPa =

WOT 3000 95kPa =

WOT 6000 95kPa =

Boost 1100 180kPa =

Boost 3000 180kPa =

Boost 6000 180 kPa =

From running the car earlier without timing control (with the combination of Black stop bushing, 1 light blue spring and 1 light silver spring), I know this timing curve was working ok.

(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y538/jtbadamo1/7-6-2017%2010-23-08%20AM_zpsjrrlup2b.jpg) (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/jtbadamo1/media/7-6-2017%2010-23-08%20AM_zpsjrrlup2b.jpg.html)


So question is, how would "one" go about filling in this screen?  LOL  Also, should the Boost values be left blank (perhaps obvious if I am not running boost?).  What are your thoughts?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 09, 2017, 08:07:33 PM
OK, FiTech got back to me with the following timing inputs.  Can anyone explain why the Distributor base timing is 10 degrees?  I don't understand why its not 12 degrees.....  and with that said, why the Idle advance is 12 degrees (and the difference in this vs the Distributor Base timing?):

Distrib Base deg =   10 Degrees  (I still do not understand why this is 10 degrees and not 12 degrees?)

VR Advance 4000 = Leave this alone (Upon further reading, this is something you would do to account for chain stretch at 4000 RPM)

Idle Advance =  12 Degrees

1100 45kPa =  25 Degrees

3000 45kPa Cruise = 30 Degrees

6000 45kPa = 30 Degrees

WOT 1100 95kPa = 25 Degrees

WOT 3000 95kPa = 30 Degrees

WOT 6000 95kPa =  30 Degrees

Boost 1100 180kPa =  Leave this alone

Boost 3000 180kPa =  Leave this alone

Boost 6000 180 kPa =  Leave this alone
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on July 09, 2017, 10:06:29 PM
How does FiTech define "Distributor Base Timing"?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on July 10, 2017, 05:22:42 AM
Agree with Jay, need their definition.  Often EFI systems use a base for other things, like an injector reference.  However, you would think it would match your initial.  Also, TBs don't need a reference because they don't care what the valve is doing at idle, unlike a SEFI port injection

One possibility is that the tech assumes you'll be at 10 degrees initial at crank for rotor alignment, and then it goes immediately to 22 (adds idle advance)  However, it seems odd to me because then cruise would be a little low at 30 (40 total)

Do you have access to a manual on line we can look at?

BTW, if it does immediately add advance when it fires, nothing wrong with pulling back initial, easier on the starter, battery and wires (admittedly not by much, but a little, especially hot)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 10, 2017, 06:03:44 AM
SPARK MAP: The spark advance uses a 3x3 matrix table to allow flexible spark advance control. This can allow distributor simulation, locked timing, boost retards, high RPM advancing and other strategies to optimize the ignition spark advance angle. The distributor must be locked out. Spark advance during cranking will happen at or after the VR tooth crosses the sensor. Above cranking, spark advance will only be equal to or more than the base advance, regardless of the value entered in the handheld for timing.

Distrib Base deg = Adjust this to get the timing light timing to match the displayed Spark Advance at low RPM. It’s recommended to set this as high as possible, because the amount of advance range from min to max is limited due to the rotor and cap being in a fixed relationship.

VR Advance 4000 = Adjust this to get the timing light timing to match the displayed Spark Advance at 4000 RPM. This is adjustment for the small lag inherent in VR signals. It can add up at high RPM.

Idle Advance = The spark advance desired at idle.

1100 45kPa = Spark advance used just after throttle opens from idle. This value shouldn’t be much more than the Idle Advance, for this reason.

3000 45kPa Cruise = Spark Advance used in a light cruise at 3000 RPM and throttle barely open.

6000 45kPa = Spark Advance used in a high free-rev condition, perhaps also seen when autocrossing and just tipping-in in a low gear at high RPM.

WOT 1100 95kPa = Spark Advance at low RPM and “full load” – perhaps the throttle is as low as 20% to see this much load. Spark is based on MAP, and MAP (and thus “load”) can get pretty high even with low throttle openings at low RPMs.

WOT 3000 95kPa = Spark Advance at high loads and 3000 RPM. This could easily be deemed “total” timing when comparing to a distributor, but due to the flexibility of a 3x3 matrix, this doesn’t limit you as such. Handheld Controller Feature Definitions 4

WOT 6000 95kPa = Spark Advance at high loads and 6000 RPM. At high RPM, some engines require more or less spark advance than at 3000 RPM. This allows you to set the timing there.

Boost 1100 180kPa = This is full throttle but with a supercharger or turbocharger boosting to about 11.6 psi. If no intercooler is used, the engine may require very little spark advance. Remember that timing less than the base advance “Distr Base Deg” is not allowed, so choose the base timing carefully.

Boost 3000 180kPa = This is full throttle but with a supercharger or turbocharger boosting to about 11.6 psi. If no intercooler is used, the engine may require very little spark advance. Remember that timing less than the base advance “Distr Base Deg” is not allowed, so choose the base timing carefully.

Boost 6000 180kPa = This is full throttle but with a supercharger or turbocharger boosting to about 11.6 psi. If no intercooler is used, the engine may require very little spark advance. Remember that timing less than the base advance “Distr Base Deg” is not allowed, so choose the base timing carefully.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 10, 2017, 07:11:17 AM
Agree with Jay, need their definition.  Often EFI systems use a base for other things, like an injector reference.  However, you would think it would match your initial.  Also, TBs don't need a reference because they don't care what the valve is doing at idle, unlike a SEFI port injection

One possibility is that the tech assumes you'll be at 10 degrees initial at crank for rotor alignment, and then it goes immediately to 22 (adds idle advance)  However, it seems odd to me because then cruise would be a little low at 30 (40 total)

Do you have access to a manual on line we can look at?

BTW, if it does immediately add advance when it fires, nothing wrong with pulling back initial, easier on the starter, battery and wires (admittedly not by much, but a little, especially hot)

Hey Ross,

Tell me if this sounds correct.  As set up as the tech suggested, I would be "Cranking" at 10 degrees to make it light off easier?  Then as soon as the engine is running, I am at the value input on the "Idle Advance" = 12 degrees (this is where I should be at idle).  I think the way it looks when I am inputting the values is that my base timing will be 10 degrees, but then I will add the idle advance to it (an additional 12 degrees).  which is wayyy to much.  I think the idle advance value is a value and not an amount that it will advance on top of the base timing (timing while cranking).  so really it only adding 2 degrees (to get to 12) and not adding 12.

Or....  perhaps I am missing the mark again  LOL  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 10, 2017, 09:45:47 AM
http://fitechefi.com/fitech-uploads/2016/07/HandheldcontrollerfeatureDefinitions.pdf

This may help with definitions on the efi system
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 10, 2017, 11:23:09 AM
OK I spent my lunch today waiting to speak with a Fitech Tech.  They are super busy over there I think.  Anyway, I think I understand it.

So distributor base timing (and I think Ross had mentioned this) as per the tech, is just a value Fitech came up with....  He stated that it would have been better to call it "Cranking" in stead of base.  Fitech came up with a "range" of base timing (Crank timing) that they say you should use.  I believe it was something like between 10 - 13 (it may be a little higher than 13 so don't quote me).

The Idle advance setting is really what you want the engine to idle at.  Its not an advance number however....  Its not like you have 10 degrees as the base and then put 2 degrees in the idle advance to get the timing to 12 degrees.  If you want the engine to idle at 12 degrees (like I do), then 12 degrees goes in Idle Advance.

Now for the difference.....  The tech said that the EFI system automatically adjust the spark up and down a little to smooth out the idle.  Since 10 degrees is the lowest you can put in the Base timing field, and I need the engine to idle at 12 degrees (Idle advance), he said the computer will still try to smooth out the idle, but can only go down as low as 10 degrees (on a down swing).  He suggested upping my idle advance higher than 12 degrees if possible, but I am not sure if that is advisable. 

Also, because of FiTechs feature of "smoothing" out idle by adjusting the spark, he suggested I check the timing again at 2000 RPM.  He said at 2000 RPM, the number on the handheld screen should match the timing light. 

I think I understand now, its just the labels for the inputs were a tad confusing. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on July 10, 2017, 01:04:52 PM
I found them confusing too.  Since your distributor is now locked, you should be able to increase the idle advance and not exceed 30 degrees total timing.  Try running it up to 16-18 at idle, that should help the idle quality. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on July 11, 2017, 07:19:18 AM
OK, so, here is what I think

Distrib Base deg = Adjust this to get the timing light timing to match the displayed Spark Advance at low RPM . It’s recommended to set this as high as possible, because the amount of advance range  from min to max is limited due to the rotor and cap being in a fixed relationship.

I think this is a correction factor input.  The fact is says low RPM is that it likely can be checked anywhere that it isn't advancing significantly.  So if you read 12 degrees on your light, but the hand held says it's currently at 10, you add or subtract to that figure to correct the ECM so it knows where it is.  I would note though that they are trying to get you to use a narrow curve range.  So, you know best total to make power, I would set initial at the highest point that the starter will turn the engine hot, using the timing light, set up your curve limits (maybe 18 initial and if Jay says 30 total is right for the engine)  and then if it pings on the fuel you want to use, adjust how fast timing comes in as opposed to changing the end points

Idle Advance = The spark advance desired at idle

Once the ECM has the idle timing corrected and the 4000 rpm advance corrected, it now knows where it is, so I think this is your desired idle timing and the ECM puts it there.  So if the first one is a correction, this one is a command.

Overall, I think the Distributor Base and the VR Advance 4000 are corrections to make the handheld match what your timing light is honestly telling you because it has no way of knowing.  Then most, if not all, the others are timing curve inputs that you command.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 11, 2017, 07:36:26 AM
Thanks Ross and Jay.  I think this is all becoming a little bit more clear.  Of course I am marking up my instruction manual with all of these notes.  I actually started the car last night.  within a few minutes, I had the IAC where it should be, the Idle RPM's where they should be, and also had the Idle AFR up to 14.0:1 with no pinging!  If you remember with the FAST system, I had the Idle AFR at 13.5 to 13.7.......  With a little more experimentation, I think I will get it right where I need it.

Thanks again guys!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on July 12, 2017, 06:13:14 AM
Just realize that I assumed that looking at the instructions, I would take your timing light and check the timing at idle and at 4000.  If they match what you command, you are all set.  If they don't then you may need to play with the adjustment factors

Cost of being wrong is either too much timing or not enough, one can hurt, one can take power away
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: sixty9cobra on July 13, 2017, 06:50:29 AM
I would hope a car never pings unless its driven. If you hear pinging and its sitting still you have big problems
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 13, 2017, 10:39:10 AM
Thanks Ross.  Yes, I read that and planned to do it soon.  I have many "Elderly" neighbors currently, so Hard to go any higher than Idle  LOL

I have a workshop at my new place with really no neighbors, so I will get it to 4000 RPM's, make sure with the light we are right on, and also Phase the rotor (if its needed).... when I get there next month.

Also, I think I should explain when I said Pinging.....  With the Fast system, When I would adjust the fuel to go a bit more lean, it was more of a popping.  Most likely a misfire.  Since the fast system was requiring 10" of vacuum, I am not sure exactly what was going on, but when I tried to go leaner than 13.5-7 range....  I would start to get that noise.  I may have used "Pinging" in error.  :0)

Either way, with a low Vacuum setup , the Fitech seems to be working well for me so far.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: sixty9cobra on July 13, 2017, 11:48:56 AM
I wouldn't go nutty for 14:1 anywhere 12-13 is fine its not an economy motor. Richer is safer in my book
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on July 13, 2017, 12:03:58 PM
+1 on what Harry said.  Don't get hung up on the numbers!  Tune for what the engine wants, not some A/F value.  If the engine is idling better at 13 or 13.5, don't try to force it to 14.7 if it doesn't want to run well there.

On the dyno we use the A/F numbers to get close, then go up or down in fuel to maximize power.  A good example is my race SOHC, which makes best power at an A/F of 13.3:1, not the 12.5-13 that most people will tell you it wants...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 13, 2017, 06:51:45 PM
Thanks.  The only reason I though I would try and go a little leaner was the fact that when I pulled my spark plugs last time (Pictures a few pages back in this post), they were solid black.  Since the car was mostly only at idle (Never really been driven far or long aside from getting the wheels aligned), I figured it was the A/F.

I actually saw Barry's last Cammer engine on the dyno (He posted a video on YouTube).  I noticed that it was the same stroke and CI as my motor and it seemed to be idling at about 14 to 1 AFR.  LOL  I can definitely go richer.  When I change the AFR on this system, there was no audible difference between being set at 13.5   or being set at 14.0.  How would I go about knowing where the engine is "Happiest" without being able to hear the difference?  Is there another way to tell?  Thanks again guys!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on July 13, 2017, 08:21:07 PM
I'd suggest you lean it out until it starts to run poorly, then richen it back up a few steps.  That ought to get you close.  Watch the plugs to see if you may need more incremental changes after that.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on July 14, 2017, 01:13:45 PM

Also, I think I should explain when I said Pinging.....  With the Fast system, When I would adjust the fuel to go a bit more lean, it was more of a popping.  Most likely a misfire.


Yup - That's what you have.  It's a lean misfire.  Won't hurt anything, but as Jay says you want to be well into a comfortable A/F ratio for good idle quality.  Sounds like you're on your way!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: blackthunder1970 on August 04, 2017, 09:24:25 PM
hi
any up dates yet on the fitech
cheers
barry
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 07, 2017, 08:58:10 AM
Hi Barry,

None yet.  I am in the process of moving, so will be fine tuning the timing in about a month or so.  Thanks for checking in.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 03, 2017, 01:01:25 PM
Hey Guys!  Move complete....ish.  I am now at a point where I want to get started on refining (or  ...  um... understanding) the timing a bit more.

OK so to recap, I have a brand new Pro Billet MSD distributor installed and its Locked out since I will be using the FiTech system for timing control.  The following values are what the systems asks for as far as timing.  I have filled in the values as they told me based on an base timing of 12 degrees (I think on a earlier post we have decided to up that to 16-18 degrees) and an all in timing of 30 degrees:

*Distributor Base Timing: 10 degrees (I double checked on this and the tech said 10!)  Also re-read Ross's Post, but I don't think I am fully understanding why 10  LOL  Since you have to check timing at a high RPM because the timing jumps around at lower RPM's due to the computer control, I don't know how I could adjust using this field when the low RPM number moves around.  Maybe I am totally off.  I understand the concept Ross described, but the moving timing number (at low RPM) throws me.

*Idle Advance: 12 degrees  (I think this will need to be changed to 16 degrees)

*1100 45kPa:  25 degrees

*3000 45kPa Cruise: 30 Degrees

*6000 45kPa: 30 Degrees

*WOT 1100 95kPa: 25 Degrees

*WOT 3000 95kPa: 30 Degrees

*WOT 6000 95kPa: 30 Degrees

Followed by this excerpt: 

SPARK MAP: The spark advance uses a 3x3 matrix table to allow flexible spark advance control. This can allow distributor simulation, locked timing, boost retards, high RPM advancing and other strategies to optimize the ignition spark advance angle. The distributor must be locked out. Spark advance during cranking will happen at or after the VR tooth crosses the sensor. Above cranking, spark advance will only be equal to or more than the base advance, regardless of the value entered in the handheld for timing. Distrib Base deg = Adjust this to get the timing light timing to match the displayed Spark Advance at low RPM. It’s recommended to set this as high as possible, because the amount of advance range from min to max is limited due to the rotor and cap being in a fixed relationship. VR Advance 4000 = Adjust this to get the timing light timing to match the displayed Spark Advance at 4000 RPM. This is adjustment for the small lag inherent in VR signals. It can add up at high RPM. Idle Advance = The spark advance desired at idle. 1100 45kPa = Spark advance used just after throttle opens from idle. This value shouldn’t be much more than the Idle Advance, for this reason. 3000 45kPa Cruise = Spark Advance used in a light cruise at 3000 RPM and throttle barely open. 6000 45kPa = Spark Advance used in a high free-rev condition, perhaps also seen when autocrossing and just tipping-in in a low gear at high RPM. WOT 1100 95kPa = Spark Advance at low RPM and “full load” – perhaps the throttle is as low as 20% to see this much load. Spark is based on MAP, and MAP (and thus “load”) can get pretty high even with low throttle openings at low RPMs. WOT 3000 95kPa = Spark Advance at high loads and 3000 RPM. This could easily be deemed “total” timing when comparing to a distributor, but due to the flexibility of a 3x3 matrix, this doesn’t limit you as such. Handheld Controller Feature Definitions 4 WOT 6000 95kPa = Spark Advance at high loads and 6000 RPM. At high RPM, some engines require more or less spark advance than at 3000 RPM. This allows you to set the timing there. Boost 1100 180kPa = This is full throttle but with a supercharger or turbocharger boosting to about 11.6 psi. If no intercooler is used, the engine may require very little spark advance. Remember that timing less than the base advance “Distr Base Deg” is not allowed, so choose the base timing carefully. Boost 3000 180kPa = This is full throttle but with a supercharger or turbocharger boosting to about 11.6 psi. If no intercooler is used, the engine may require very little spark advance. Remember that timing less than the base advance “Distr Base Deg” is not allowed, so choose the base timing carefully. Boost 6000 180kPa = This is full throttle but with a supercharger or turbocharger boosting to about 11.6 psi. If no intercooler is used, the engine may require very little spark advance. Remember that timing less than the base advance “Distr Base Deg” is not allowed, so choose the base timing carefully.


So I guess I want to know a few things:

- First, that 10 Degrees at Base timing.  If my Idle timing was 12 degrees (soon to be 16 degrees), what is the 10 Degree Base?  Is it a degree of timing just used for cranking the engine over?  And then when it starts, it does to the Idle Advance value?

-Second, in the excerpt above, it says that 1100 95kPa should not be far off from the Idle Advance-  "Spark advance used just after throttle opens from idle. This value shouldn’t be much more than the Idle Advance, for this reason."  Doesn't 25 degrees seem far off from the 12 degrees of Idle Advance?

-Third, when I change the Idle Advance to 16 Degrees as suggested earlier, what should I change all of the other values to?  I know I need not go over 30 Degrees Total timing, so with that in mind....?

- Fourth, it does not seem like after I change the Idle Advance to a Value of 16 Degrees that I will be able to accurately check it with a timing light (since the computer is constantly adjusting-According to the tech).  I need to check timing with the timing light at 3000 or 4000 RPM's (since that should be steady) and then as long as the value I see on the balancer matches the 30 degrees total timing, in theory when I let off the throttle, the computer will control the timing to ensure the idle advance value of 16 degrees is met.  Does this sound correct?



Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 04, 2017, 08:23:47 AM
Its been a while so I had to read back through some older posts on here and I think Ross had already answered the 10 degree question  :0)  LOL

I also have a question out to Tech Support at FiTech for chainging the Idle Advance to 16 degrees (How it affects 1100 45kPa's value and WOT 1100 95kPa)
I will post as soon as I hear back from them.


Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 05, 2017, 10:28:10 AM
So I was able to speak with the Tech support at FiTech this morning.  Here is what I found out:

Since my timing is already dialed in at the original 12 degrees initial (they call it Idle Advance), if I need to make any changes, it is all done in the handheld and not by touching the distributor.  So as suggested, I will make a change to have Initial (Idle advance) at 16 degrees.

Now with that being said (and I am sure I have been told previously, but with the Move and Job change, my mind is fried), Base timing is also an input for this system.  As per the Tech, this will not change from its current setting of 10 Degrees no matter what my Initial(Idle Advance) or Total timing is.  The Base timing value is what the system will use to start while cranking.  I think I understand that at 10 degrees (BTDC), you are compressing the Air/Fuel mixture for longer before ignition.  In theory, this should make it easier to start.

Given Base timing wont change from its current 10 Degrees, and we are changing Initial (Idle Advance) to 16 Degrees......  And most importantly, my all in timing stays at 30 Degrees.....

The only other values that will have to be adjusted are:

1100 45kPa will change to 22 Degrees (It was at 25 degrees when initial timing was 12 Degrees)

WOT 1100 95kPa will change to 22 Degrees (It was also at 25 degrees when initial timing was 12 Degrees)

I also asked about IAC.  With the FiTech system, they suggest IAC on a hot engine be between 3 and 10.  With the engine hot, I am bouncing around between 3 and 10, but on a cold start-It does not "Fire right up".  I have to tap the throttle a little.  As soon as it fires up, it will stay running at the correct RPM and all, but I was supposing that I should not have to tap the throttle to get it to start up.  The Tech suggested getting the IAC number a little closer to "0" (and as a side note, he said it should never be greater than "10".  The Closer to "0" the IAC is, the more air its letting in.  I will also do this.  Unfortunately, the engine has to be at temperature to make the adjustment, and then you have to let the engine get cold again to see if it worked.  So not instant gratification on this one.

Lastly, I asked him about AFR in relation to IAC.  I was curious if you adjust AFR's richer, would you have to adjust the IAC to let more air in.....  He stated "No".  I had him on the phone so I asked just to ask (didn't really think it through).  Another good to know.

So there it is....  I will adjust the timing to 16 degrees initial(Idle advance) and just to double check will check with timing light at 2000 + RPM to make sure my handheld matches the strobe light.

I will play with the IAC number a little more to get it to fire right up as soon as I hit the start button (not super pressing, but it would be nice)

I will used the AFR inputs to play around a bit (but stay on the rich side because it seemed to like them with when I had the FAST EZ efi system installed)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 05, 2017, 03:28:52 PM
Oh for the love of God  LOL  I just got an email from another tech at FiTech (which I emailed a day to 2 ago), and he said to change to different values.

The tech this morning on the phone said to change the following values if I change Idle Advance (initial timing) to 16 degrees and still keeping my total timing at 30 degrees:

-1000 45kPa to 22 degrees of timing

-WOT 95 kPa to 22 degrees of timing

The Tech that just emailed me said to make both of those values the same as my Idle Advance(initial timing)....  based on the vacuum that is made at those 2 points (which doesn't make sense since 45 kPa and 95kPa are different vacuum levels no?

The more I ask .... the more confused I get.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 06, 2017, 03:20:12 PM
OK I got this!  lol  I did a ton of reading (not Fitech directions because some of their directions are what confuses a lot of people).


Lets start with Base Timing
Base timing, when you are using the FiTech system to control spark) is the degree of timing that the distributor should physically be at when you install it.  10 Degrees is what they suggest and here is why (for other FiTech users who may have happened upon this forum post):  Base timing is only a degree of timing that the computer will use for Cranking and Firing up.  It will not and should not match the timing light when you are checking the timing unless your Base Timing and your Idle Advance are the same degree of timing.  Also, you need to be aware that when you physically install the distributor (after locking it out), that it be installed at 10 degrees and not back where you had it when the distributor had springs, weights and stop bushings.  The reason for this is if the engine is going to use 10 degrees timing for cranking, and you installed the distributor exactly back where you had it before you locked it out (Say 12 degrees timing), it does not have the ability to spark at 10 degrees.  The system can delay the spark to advance, but can not retard spark past where it physically was installed from the beginning.  So you install the distributor at 10 degrees "physically" for ease of cranking and firing.... then what?

Next is Idle Advance
Another confusing point with FiTech instructions would lead you to believe that this is the amount of advance you want at Idle...  Well yes....  and no  :0) 
Yes because this is the advance from the Base Timing you are looking for.  So if Base Timing (cranking) is at 10 Degrees, as soon as the engine lights off you will most likely want to be at an advanced timing degree for Idle.
No, because this value (unlike its namesake would suggest) is not the number of degrees you want the spark to advance to at idle, but the actual timing value itself.  So say the system used 10 Degrees for Base (Cranking) timing, and the engine starts.  Then you want the initial timing to be 16 Degrees (like in my case).  The value of Idle Advance should be 16 degrees.

OK now on to all in timing (a bit out of order-yes I know).  In my particular case, it is important not to go any higher than 30 degrees of timing all in.  So the value of WOT 3000 95 kPa will be my all in value of 30 degrees of timing. Also, WOT 6000 95kPa will also be 30 Degrees of timing.  This will ensure I am all in at 3000 RPM and anything past it (like 6000 RPM!). 
This all in value (degree in timing) also applies to 3000 45kPa (Should be 30 Degrees) and 6000 45kPa (Should also be 30 Degrees)

OK now on to the pesky (at least for me) 1100 45kPa and 1100 95kPa values.  I got some conflicting information on this which made me do the o'le "2 out of 3".  I called a few times (3) and have decided to go with the more popular answer the techs give me.

I was told that 1100 45kPa and 1100 95kPa should be 16 degrees in my case (same as my Idle Advance).  Its not necessarily what I was thinking.  I though "well, if idle advance was 16 degrees when I'm idling at 1,000 RPM and I am all in at 30 Degrees of timing at 3000 45kPa (and WOT 3000 95kPa), then maybe it should be like 22 Degrees (you know...  half way between my Idle advance of 16 Degrees  and my all in of 30 Degrees).  Well, I was told (by the majority of techs) that it should be 16 Degrees (just like my Idle Advance value).  I think what was confusing me was that it should be 16 degrees, not because of my idle advance value.... but rather coincidentally so.  After speaking with the Tech's (well at least 2 of the 3 so far)... it was said that most engines will have a value of between 15 and 16 degrees at the 1100 timing events.

Now lastly.....even though we covered the Spark inputs expected from the FiTech system, I would like to touch on 2 past points (and I think Ross had gotten correct early on, but I must have just not been getting it).

Lets go back to Base timing.....

Like it was stated before, Base timing is the actual degree that the distributor should be installed at from the beginning and will be used (with no advance) for cranking and fire up.  10 degrees should allow the engine to fire up easier and quicker with less stress on the starter.  As soon as it start (and I know this is recap), the computer starts using the Idle Advance Value as the degree of timing while Idling.  This Idle Advance timing figure should match the balancer when you use a timing light......  If it doesn't, it means your distributor isn't really at 10 degrees of base timing!  2 options from here.  Option 1-You can physically turn your distributor until your timing light shows you the timing degree matches what the handheld shows for Idle Advance.  When this happens, then your distributor will truly be pointing to 10 Degrees and the FiTech system is using a spark Advance to fire the plug at your Idle Advance value (in my case 16 degrees).  Option 2- is you can adjust the base timing value until your timing light matches your Idle advance value on the handheld.  In this option, you are basically guessing 1 degree or 2 at a time to see where your distributor was really installed at.  When you guess (and input) the correct value, them your Idle advance will be correct and the timing light will match the computer screen timing.

Lastly there is an imput Called VR Advance
The last few times I called the Tech line, they tell you not to touch it "Right now".  But what is it?  Well, it has to do with Chain Stretch/ Timing Belt Stretch.  This value will allow you to allow for chain stretch/timing belt stretch at High RPM's (Say 4000 PRM's).  So as an example, Say you have your base timing at 10 degrees (which allows your engine to Crank/Fire up easier with less stress on the starter) and your Idle Advance is 16 Degrees.  Say you used the timing light at 2000 PRM's and the Timing Light matches the Idle Advance timing value on the computer screen (so your all synced up!).  Now, if you rev the engine to 4,000 RPM and use the timing light to verify the FiTech computer, 2 things will happen.  It will match exactly in which case your are done!  Or, Due to Timing Chain Stretch/Timing Belt Stretch, you are off a few 10th's on the timing.  If this is the case, you can adjust the VR advance value to account for this stretch and ensure the timing light matches what the handheld computer shows the FiTech system says(in my example it should 30 degrees total timing at 4000 RPM).

I hope this is helpful to anyone out there who comes across this.  I read through may other forums and see others having the same issues with the directions being confusing.  :0)

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on October 06, 2017, 10:20:17 PM
Good stuff Jason, thanks!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Leny Mason on October 08, 2017, 08:27:40 AM
Hi Jason, one thing you are going to be there best technician when you figure your car out, have you tried this yet and how did it work. Leny Mason
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on October 30, 2017, 07:29:32 AM
Hello All,

This weekend, I thought I would jump on the timing adjustments discussed above.  First thing was to check that I was still as 12 degrees Initial (and that the screen matched the timing light).  After this was confirmed, I wanted to be sure that When revved, the timing did not go past 30 degrees total).  So, revved it past 4,000 (incrementally) and we never went past the 30 total!  All good there.  Then finally, I made the timing adjustment on the handheld that was suggested a few pages back in this post....  16 degrees initial.  Made the change on the handheld, and then checked it with the timing light.....  Right on.  Just to test it out (I deserve it at this point), I backed it out down the driveway all the way to the road.  Revved it up a little and dropped the clutch!!!  HOLY HELL!  I smoked the tires so easily that I didn't even know they were spinning!  LOL.  New house and I already left 2 tire rubber marks leading up the driveway!  So I would say the timing adjustments were a success  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Leny Mason on November 10, 2017, 07:51:20 AM
Hi, I am starting on my engine and thinking of your oil leaks what did you do to fix it, I don't remember reading what you found thanks. Leny Mason
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 12, 2017, 08:40:24 PM
Hi Lenny,

I actually never addressed it fully.  I had a small oil leak coming from the intake manifold area on the passenger side.  It was very minor, but as the oil thinned out from heat, it would drip down my headers and into the slip joints by the collector (causing the exhaust to smoke).  I pulled the intake manifold and resealed all of the gaskets (especially the cork wedges) with the TA31.  This stopped that small leak, but I still have a small leak coming from the back of the engine.  It drips down from between the back of the oil pan and the bell housing.  I snugged all of the oil pan bolts equally, but to no avail.  I believe it is a small leak from the rear main seal.  Don't feel like pulling the transmission, so it will have to wait until further down the road.  I have 10 quarts of oil in my pan (as I haven't installed the oil accumulator yet), it may or may not have anything to do with it.....  but with 10 quarts, a small drip wont run me dry any time soon  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 13, 2017, 08:48:32 AM
On a side note, I had contacted an EFI tuning guy down here.  He and I decided to rent out a dyno at a performance shop (for about 5 hours) and try to get the efi system running its best.  This weekend, I started the car and the engine would not run lower than 2000 RPM's (even with the IAC adjusted).  Basically, I have a vacuum leak.  As I was laying in bed last night, I remembered I had stripped one of the intake manifold carb stud holes (Front passenger).  Unsure how since its a stud, but it happened.  Me.... being me.  just tightened the other 3 down and figured that it would be "fine".  As the carb studs on this intake are through holes, I am guessing it is probably leaking from the stud itself as well as possibly around the throttle body gasket.  Anyway, since this is really the only place it could be coming from, I plan to pull the throttle bodies this week and helicoil the carb stud hole on the manifold.  Hopefully this fixes the prob since there is no sense renting out the dyno (and the efi tuners time) if it wont even idle correctly.  My dyno session is not until 11/22, so I am hoping to get this fixed and test it this week.

It has been idling beautifully for the last few months.  Hope this fix corrects it.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 14, 2017, 08:16:09 AM
ok so stopped by AutoZone last night on the way home from work to pick up 5/16" -18 Helicoils for the carb stud.  In the garage, I took a quick look around just to see if there was anything obvious.  I started with the Vacuum hose for the brake booster.  Hose seemed in great shape with no tears, not rubbing on anything, and not near a header.  I have it attached to a hose barb running to the back of the intake manifold.  The throttle bodies do supply barbs for vacuum to the brake booster, but I have those capped. (In the future, I may think about just plugging the intake manifold, and just running the barb to the throttle body reference port, but only if this does not correct the issue).

Then with a bright light, I searched around the throttle bodies to see if there was any visible leak around the gaskets.  I thought if there was a vacuum leak, there may be a darker area where the leak is happening.  But all seemed clean.  Then I checked the vacuum reference line to the fuel pressure regulator.  lines are clean, and tight.

Finally, I moved on to the carb stud in question.  It is worth mentioning that it could not be tightened at all after it was stripped, so I was able to very easily just unscrew the nut with 2 fingers.  Then I actually just pulled the stud out by hand (no threads left, so it doesn't even need to be unscrewed, it just pulled straight out).

I am not sure if this would cause a leak big enough (or how big a leak has to be to keep the idle RPM at 2000), but this is definitely a starting point.  Once I fix this, there are only the 2 or 3 other vacuum areas to systematically check.

Carb stud was junk, so I placed an order for a brand new pack of ARP carb studs.  Should have it buttoned up by Saturday Afternoon.

Any experience with Vacuum leaks would be greatly appreciated.  Where it was located, how it effected your efi, how you went about finding the leak, etc.  Please let me know.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jmlay on November 14, 2017, 08:44:40 AM
Make sure you stuff the ports & get the shop vac out to suck up all of the shavings while drilling & cutting new threads.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 14, 2017, 08:50:25 AM
Thank you.  I wonder why they are through holes?  seems like it would just be one more area that would be susceptible to vacuum leaks.  I was planning to put Kleenex down there to block the port(s).  This was the tissue will block shavings and also be easily sucked out with the shop vac.  I also use a small piece of vacuum hose and duct tape on the shop vac to make a suction line that can get down into tight spaces (Just to be sure nothing is left behind).   
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on November 14, 2017, 12:53:21 PM
I would look at the IAC motor and see if it is stuck.  One easy way would be to disconnect it, it should idle down or stall, if it does not, block it's air feed with your finger.  If it idles down, then the motor is likely bad or stuck

Also, confirm that your throttle plate are closed enough that it cannot idle without IAC?  In most systems, although there is a preferred value, in operation, the motor when fully warmed up should just about stall without the IAC.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 14, 2017, 01:34:31 PM
Hi Ross,

OK with the engine warmed up, the IAC is at 0 (which I believe is Open all the way) and the engine still idles at 2000 RPM.  There are 2 throttle bodies, and both have the blades all the way closed, the idle stays at 2000.  Leads me to believe there is a Vacuum leak.  Carb Stud had no threads on it, and I pulled straight up on it and it came out.  Had to be air getting past, no?  :0)

Edited Above:

Spoke with FiTech tech- IAC if experiencing a vacuum leak will not be a valid reading.. So with a vacuum leak (even a tiny one he said), the IAC will show that its open even when its really closed-(due to unmetered airflow?)

I explained to him that the carb stud pulled right out, and he laughed and said that it would be more than enough to cause that to happen.  Either way, I will fix it and try again  :0)  fingers crossed.  It was running beautifully for 3 or 4 weeks....I think I will use blue Loctite on the carb studs this go around (as a sealant?)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on November 14, 2017, 01:59:44 PM
Hi Ross,

OK with the engine warmed up, the IAC is at 0 (which I believe is Closed all the way) and the engine still idles at 2000 RPM.  There are 2 throttle bodies, and both have the blades all the way closed, the idle stays at 2000.  Leads me to believe there is a Vacuum leak.  Carb Stud had no threads on it, and I pulled straight up on it and it came out.  Had to be air getting past, no?  :0)

It certainly could the vacuum leak depending on how much air is being drawn in around the bolt and the base of the TB, and needless to say you have to fix that.

However, sticking your finger in wherever the IAC gets it's air from will tell you if the IAC is really at zero if that wasn't the cause.  The computer may have commanded 0, but if it's stuck it won't actually be there.  To check, stick your finger in the air feed and it'll idle down when you plug the hole.  The reason I bring it up is that an engine your size, idling at 2000 rpm, with all blades closed and the IAC closed seems odd with something as small as a 5/16 bolt that was setting in the hole, although stripped.  That being said, certainly could have been sucking around the base too because of the lack of gasket compression.

Also, if you have been overtightening those studs, better check them all!  Hope it's easy

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 14, 2017, 02:04:30 PM
Thanks ross.  I think the IAC feed is a hole on top of the throttle body.  I will give it a shot.!!  Thanks again
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 18, 2017, 02:29:22 PM
OK guys.  I took some advice and need some more...

I finished up fixing the intake carb stud with the Heli coil.  I got everything installed back and tightened down (evenly)  Fired it back up and right to a 2000 RPM Idle.  So I hopped out of the car and plugged the IAC port in the top of the main throttle body....  no change.  Then I decided to plug the IAC valve in Both of the throttle bodies at the same time.....  NO DIFFERENCE.  Then I got a little "cheeky" and decided to cover one whole throttle body with my hands (Mind you, the throttle blades are closed all the way and the car still starts right up and idles to 2000 RPM).

When I covered 1 of the 2 throttle bodies with my hands, the RPM's came back down to 1000 to 1100????  WTH?  After speaking with the FiTech tech, he suggested plugging the Brake booster line that gets its vacuum from the back of the intake (a hose barb).   With it plugged, car went right back to 2000 RPM's.

Called the tech back and explained.  I also told him that there are hardly any items that use the vacuum aside from the Brake booster.  The only other vacuum reference is the Fuel Pressure Regulator and the Vacuum Gauge.  The other 3 vacuum ports on the throttle bode all have brand new Vacuum caps on them, and are definitely not leaking.

He told me he did not know what to tell me aside from finding someone with a smoke machine to find the leak.  unfortunately I don't know anyone with this, but I asked him....  If I have the throttle blades all the way closed and the car starts right up and goes immediately to 2000 RPM, and I can take my hands and block 1 throttle body (even with the throttle blades closed, its sucking SUPER hard).... and it still runs, Wouldn't the vacuum leak have to be huge???  He couldn't say.  Honestly I am at a loss.

The only other interesting thing that has happened is that a high pitched squeal has returned (one that I hadn't heard since the FAST EFI was installed.  When I covered the Throttle body and the RPM's came down to the 1100 to 1000 range, the squeal went away, when I take my hands off and the RPM's shoot up, the squeal comes back.  Sounds like its coming from the front of the engine, but everything is super loud on this engine and you just cant tell.

Any Ideas???  At a total loss at this point.  Was working beautifully for weeks and this happened overnight!!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on November 19, 2017, 09:19:55 AM
So, you have the engine getting air from somewhere, some questions

1. Are you 100% sure you have both TBs adjusted correctly for idle?
2. Do both TBs have an IAC port?  Shouldn't but if the second one somehow has that port open it could do tha
3.  I think your squeal could be telling you that you have an intake leak, but I would look everywhere I could before I pulled the intake.  IAC, TBs, hoses, etc, evap system (if it still has one), you name it. 

Undoubtedly though, the car is getting air somewhere.  If it wasn't EFI it would stall but the EFI adds fuel to balance it out like a built-in IAC

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 19, 2017, 03:43:50 PM
Hey Ross.  Its funny you mention the TB.  I though about it last night, and if I backed both throttle adjustment screws all the way out ( closed throttle position), then why when I covered the throttle body at Ifle, was it sucking so hard?  Shouldnt the throttle blades on both be completely closed?  So with a light, I looked at all 8 throttle blades, and they are not completely closed!  They are open enough to slide a tie strap in.  I have photos, but cant post them with photobucket now gone.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on November 20, 2017, 06:56:09 AM
That'd do it, you should be able to close them all the way

When properly adjusted though, none should be all the way close to where they bind shut, usually one or both sets of primaries will be slightly open to set idle (I would recommend only the one with the IAC, and the remaining should be adjusted just barely short of binding.

8 barrels with that much clearance is quite a bit.  Are there any adjustable stops on the secondaries that you could get those closer at least?  Might be enough to get you where you want to be
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 21, 2017, 09:06:55 AM
Hi Ross,

OK so I double checked and both throttle bodies have the hole for an IAC, but only the primary actually has a functioning IAC.  The secondary throttle body is plugged up from the factory.

I contacted the FiTech people with photos, and it looks to them like they are cracked open just enough (as you said, totally closed and they would bind).  Plus upon further thinking, the car has been running perfect for weeks with the throttle blades even adjusted a little further open (as I had to adjust the system until the IAC is between 6 to 7).

I think what the give away here is that the engine has this high pitched whistle (almost like a bad bearing in a pulley), but the squeal goes away when you rev up the engine.  When I rev the engine, the Vacuum drops... squeal goes away.  As I let off the throttle, the vacuum shoots up and the squeal returns.  I am guessing I have an intake runner leak somewhere under the intake, and its sucking air from the crank case.  This is the possible cause of the whistle/bearing squeal sound (Im guessing).

I replaced the intake gasket a few months ago when I had the oil pooling issue up near the distributor.  After I replaced it, the oil issues stopped, but it seems another issue may have occurred.  I have reached out to Jay for advise on a better way to re-do the intake manifold gasket replacement.  Last go around, I cleaned everything impeccably, coated the intake gaskets with a thin coating of TA-31 all over, but put slightly more around the Water Jacket ports. Used the distributor to make sure the intake was in the correct place before tightening it all down, and then after it was all installed, waited a day or two just to ensure it was all dry before adding back the coolant and re-installing the throttle bodies.  I will wait to hear back about some questions I had regarding re-doing the gaskets, and then it looks like I may have to replace the gaskets again.   
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: babybolt on November 21, 2017, 11:49:04 AM
Looking through your videos, you have a short air cleaner element.  Those are very restrictive at higher HP levels, though it should'nt cause any problems are idle.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 21, 2017, 02:39:48 PM
Yea, I actually replaced it with a K&N style one for better flow, but its the same height.  I recently purchased a custom hood scoop which should allow the use of a much taller air filter.  The odd thing is if you Google Cammer engines, it seems like almost all of them have the low profile air cleaner!  LOL  I guess it always boils down to hood clearance with this bulky engine.  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on November 23, 2017, 08:29:52 AM
Hi Ross,

OK so I double checked and both throttle bodies have the hole for an IAC, but only the primary actually has a functioning IAC.  The secondary throttle body is plugged up from the factory.

I contacted the FiTech people with photos, and it looks to them like they are cracked open just enough (as you said, totally closed and they would bind).  Plus upon further thinking, the car has been running perfect for weeks with the throttle blades even adjusted a little further open (as I had to adjust the system until the IAC is between 6 to 7).

I think what the give away here is that the engine has this high pitched whistle (almost like a bad bearing in a pulley), but the squeal goes away when you rev up the engine.  When I rev the engine, the Vacuum drops... squeal goes away.  As I let off the throttle, the vacuum shoots up and the squeal returns.  I am guessing I have an intake runner leak somewhere under the intake, and its sucking air from the crank case.  This is the possible cause of the whistle/bearing squeal sound (Im guessing).

I replaced the intake gasket a few months ago when I had the oil pooling issue up near the distributor.  After I replaced it, the oil issues stopped, but it seems another issue may have occurred.  I have reached out to Jay for advise on a better way to re-do the intake manifold gasket replacement.  Last go around, I cleaned everything impeccably, coated the intake gaskets with a thin coating of TA-31 all over, but put slightly more around the Water Jacket ports. Used the distributor to make sure the intake was in the correct place before tightening it all down, and then after it was all installed, waited a day or two just to ensure it was all dry before adding back the coolant and re-installing the throttle bodies.  I will wait to hear back about some questions I had regarding re-doing the gaskets, and then it looks like I may have to replace the gaskets again.

I agree, I didn't realize this was a new issue and it was doing well.  Since you proved it was not the IAC going bad, I would suspect vacuum leak as well.  Must be a pretty decent one as well.  I have never worked on a SOHC, is the bottom of the intake exposed to fresh air?  It'd be very hard to hear an internal vacuum leak
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on November 23, 2017, 09:27:41 AM
May 12th, 2014 to November 21, 2017 and 132 posts! Your patience is noted!

Btw, how many hours of running, driving time or miles on the car since the engine went in? 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 23, 2017, 06:04:09 PM
Hi bob,  about 1 hour total driving on the FASt efi, no miles at all with the Fitech.  Just a few hours idling
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on November 27, 2017, 10:46:23 AM
These posts are starting to feel cyclical!  LOL.  With the long weekend, I decided to tackle the intake manifold gasket "re-re-do".  To recap, the dual throttle bodies only have 5 vacuum ports in total.  The largest being for the brake booster.  I capped off the brake booster a week or so ago, and it had no affect on the high idle.  This meant it was checked off the list as a possible culprit.  The other vacuum ports are either capped (in which I pulled off the cap to inspect- All brand new and nice tight fit) or there is 1 small one used for the Vacuum gauge (also good fit and new fittings).  As I covered 1 whole throttle body and the car stayed running with the throttle blades closed, this seems like something larger.

Long story short, I pulled the intake, and using brake/parts cleaner and a razor this time (instead of rubbing alcohol like last time), I cleaned the intake manifold.  I then pressure washed it out with tap water, and then sprayed it down completely with parts cleaner again and dried it off with shop towels.  Spotless, and squeaky clean.

As for the heads side, I plugged the oil drain back holes, intake ports and the distributor hole with shop towels to protect from debris.  Then using the Parts/Brake cleaner and a razor, I cleaned the whole area over and over.  I did not notice anything huge jump out at me, but when you pull the intake, some of the gasket goes with the intake and some stays on the heads....  So couldn't see any obvious sign of a leak.

Anyway, after All was clean, I used brake cleaner again and made triple sure it was free of any oil residue, gasket material or TA31 sealant.  I even used the brake cleaner to clean the valley of the block to make sure nothing had fallen into the residual oil and was "hiding".  After this, I cut out the cork triangles that seal up the space on the china walls where the heads overhang.  Using a fair amount of TA31 sealant, I coated the cork triangles on the bottom, side that mates to the head and the side that touches the front timing cover.  After pushing them into place (on all 4 corners), I covered the engine with a piece of plastic and let them dry overnight.  This may seem excessive, but if you try sealing these up wet, they pop right out as soon as you start to tighten down the intake.

The next day, I moved on to the intake gaskets.  Ensuring I had a good fit dry, I coated the mating surface (gasket to head) with a coating of TA31 around each port opening as well as around the gasket material where the bolts go. Like last time, I put it on slightly thicker around the water jacket areas.  Then, I placed the gasket on the head and pressed and adjusted it around until all of the bolt holes and ports were perfectly aligned. About 15 minutes later (after I completed the other side), I went back and pressed around the gaskets again to make sure it was all making good contact and had not moved.

Then I let this sit for about 2 to 3 hours.  By this time, they were sturdy in place and there was no change of them sliding when the intake was put on.  so with more TA31 sealant, I put the mirror amount on the gasket to intake side as well as running a thick tall bead along the back rail and the front rail....  ensuring to go up the cork triangles on all sides (which were now sealed tightly in place and would not pop out!).  Finally, I slowly lined up the intake manifold and lowered it into place.  I did this as slowly as possible because I did not want to move it much before I started to run bolts in.  Once I dropped it down, I inserted the Distributor (to ensure it was properly aligned before tightening it down.  After about 3 taps to the drivers side (literally "Taps"), the distributor slipped right in!.  Going around with a shop light, I could see that the bolt holes were also perfectly aligned and it did not appear that the intake gasket moved at all!  All bolts were cleaned with brake cleaner and a brush to ensure they were spotless to go into the recently cleaned threaded holes in the head (Oh Yes, I went clean crazy cleaning all the threaded holes and vacuuming them out over and over!).  Long story short (again).... all bolts went in no issues at all!  Tightened them down sequentially in a pattern.  I did not torque them down, but rather got them all evenly tight, and then did a quarter turn on the ratchet).  Replaced the carb gaskets, installed the throttle bodies, re-aligned the distributor and all is back to normal.  I will give it a few days before I add back the coolant.

Fingers crossed this worked.....  but what I don't understand is how I could have that large a leak to begin with under the intake manifold. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cammerfe on November 30, 2017, 09:44:10 PM
I just googled "How to find an engine vacuum leak" and a Popular Mechanics article popped up. Good reading.

KS
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 04, 2017, 08:43:36 AM
Thank you.  Yes, I have read a few of them, and its between the smoke machine or spraying carb cleaner.  As the issue with the EFI is that it is compensating by adding fuel causing the engine to rev too high, the carb cleaner trick wouldn't work (I would venture to guess).  The smoke machine seems more technical, but as there are literally only like 4 places a Vacuum leak could occur and I was able to check all but 1....  I figured I would just replace the gasket. :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jmlay on December 04, 2017, 11:54:26 AM
I purchased a fog machine ,$15 at the local Walmart, for troubleshooting vacuum leaks. Ended up finding the issue before I had converted the machine. I have used dry ice and water in a pinch.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 05, 2017, 10:24:48 AM
That's a good idea.  It looks like many people make their own with a bell jar (or empty new paint can), some hose, nozzles and a bicycle pump  lol  $15.00 sounds cheaper than those parts  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jmlay on December 05, 2017, 06:54:30 PM
I did buy it after Halloween...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 20, 2017, 03:37:07 PM
OK, update.  Tried starting the car this morning (a day off from work).  This was the first time I tried to start it since replacing the intake manifold gasket in my search for a vacuum leak that is causing the car to shoot up past 2500 RPM as soon as it lights off.

Sadly....  no effect.  As soon as I pushed the start button, the car revved right up!  I was so frustrated!!!  I called FiTech and spoke to Cody (Cody I am told knows the dual quad power adder system really well).  After talking to him for a bit, he is still adamant that its a vacuum leak.  I mentioned IRM (electrical noise) like the FAST system suffers from, but he said no chance.

I explained to him that there is no way in HECK that intake manifold gasket is leaking.  In addition, the other vacuum ports on the throttle bodies are all capped with snug fitting brand new vacuum caps.  Only vacuum ports being used are:  Small vacuum reference for the Fuel pressure regulator, Small vacuum reference for the Vacuum Gauge, and the slightly larger vacuum reference for the brake booster.

I also explained that before I replaced the intake manifold gasket, I disconnected the brake booster and capped it to test, and it had no effect.  So my thinking is that the brake booster is good.

Throttle body (carb) gaskets are brand new and in mint condition. Carb Studs are all in perfect shape and coated in blue thread locker.  Went into the Fitech computer and verified all of the inputs are correct; Warm Idle is 1000, CI is 482, etc.  Keep being told it must be a pretty heafty leak, but there is no where left to look!  :-/

We verified that the IAC is not stuck as I can cover the whole throttle body (not just the IAC port) and the car keeps on running.  I am at a loss!!!  I can not for the life of me think where this could be leaking from!  All I did was one tiny burn out in the driveway, and this happened.  Other than paying a mobile mechanic to come to the house with a smoke machine (I am not even in the mood to try myself at this point)....  I Dunno.  LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on December 23, 2017, 09:44:20 AM
So this is a stumper, however, if it is consistent and EFI related, it is either a significant vacuum leak or a programming issue, or a misdiagnosed IAC.

It could also be an ignition issue, I wouldn't expect it, but any chance your timing changed?  Loose distributor?  Stuck vacuum advance? 

If not, then I would do the following

1 - If possible, adjust both cold and hot idle very low, one at a time, and see if it changes
2 - If possible, unhook the IAC while idling
3 - Go back and readjust the throttle plates and be sure of where you are, as well as looking close at the imprint on the gaskets
4 - If this program requires a reset of the TPS each time you adjust, do so each time you try something.

Get some data and come back.  I find it VERY hard to believe you have an intake gasket leak, but all respect intended, you have had a few loose bolts over the years and having a pipe pulg or a distributor bolt come loose would not be a surprise.  Let us know!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on December 23, 2017, 11:39:52 AM
Jason, just to be sure, that plug in the back of the intake manifold is still there, right?  I remember at one point you had not installed that...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 23, 2017, 08:04:31 PM
Hi Jay and Ross.  Happy holidays!!  Distributor is clamped down tight and the plus is indeed there (I remember that one, so I always remember to include that area (read of the intake) when I check.

You guys may find this amusing (as I did after a bit).  After going over all areas again where a possible vacuum leak could happen.... literally for about the 25th time, I called FiTech again.  This time, I got someone new.  Not the usual 3 guys I speak to.  I have to say before I get into this that the usual guys aren't bad.  I actually think they know their stuff.... But as you guys know as you try helping me without being able to see the actual engine, its educated guessing.

So I explain to this new (to me) tech how I resealed the intake manifold, checked all of my vacuum port plugs on the throttle bodies, reset the ECU to the factory tune, etc..etc..etc.  I also explain to him that this all happened after one little "innocent" burn out in the driveway!  The first thing he asks is.... are the throttle blades closed.  I say to him, "yes, I have backed the throttle blade adjustment screws all the way out on both throttle bodies"  I said, "after the screws are backed all the way out, they stay a little cracked, but I was under the impression that this is normal to prevent binding."  He says, "No, if you back the screws off all the way, they should be shut all the way.... no small crack at all!"  I explain to him that I have the throttle adjustment screws backed so far out, that they are almost able to come out!  LOL.  So he thinks for a second and asks me, "You have the throttle linkage removed right?".  I explain to him I don't, but Its not holding it open as its super loose (Lokar) and I can jiggle it all around and the throttle blades don't close any further."  So he explains that its not written in the instructions anywhere (and he doesn't know why not), but when they are testing these units or tuning their own engines with the dual quad set up, you have to do it with the throttle linkage completely removed.  He said it wont make sense, but just do it. 

I go in the garage and give the throttle linkage a little jiggle, and still loose as anything.  At this point I think I am wasting time, but desperate, I disconnect the throttle linkage and put it aside.  As soon as I do, I am able to close the throttle blades all the way.  This guy was right, it makes no sense.  Even if you back the throttle blade adjustment screws all the way out with the linkage attached, there is no way for you to get them closed enough.  As soon as you remove the linkage, it lets you close it the rest of the way.

He said they( and now forever going forward- I) should get the car started, warmed up and the IAC's dialed in before even thinking about hooking up the throttle.....  GREAT TO KNOW this little tid bit that is no where to be found anywhere in any directions / manual.

To give credit, Ross did tell me a few months ago that the throttle blades cracked open in the amount I described was too much, but since I couldn't post the pictures I took on here, I emailed them to FiTech where an unnamed tech emailed me back telling me that they look fine and he believes that they look all the way closed to him.

Anyway, got the car running, got the RPM's back at 1000 Warm and the IAC between 5 and 7 when warm.  After the holidays I will re-dial in the timing (since I'm sure it moved a little since I replaced the intake manifold gasket).  One of the most frustrating issues thus far  LOL

Thank you guys again for hanging in there with me and throwing out ideas!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on December 24, 2017, 08:54:54 AM
Glad you found it.

Are you running any kind of return spring? or just the spring on the FITech linkage?

I do agree it sounds odd, because eventually you will need to hook up the linkage and seems like it will hang up again.  Maybe you just need more return spring
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on December 25, 2017, 12:39:46 AM
Hi Ross,

Yes, I have a separate return spring.  I guess what interests me is how it changed over night after running perfectly (RPM and IAC) for the last few months.  I turn the car on one day and the RPM's shoot up automatically to 3000?  LOL.  I feel a ton better as I know now that there are no vacuum leaks and also that I know how to remedy it.  But as you said, I will now be hooking the linkage back up not that its dialed in (throttle blades), and I am unsure how or when it will change on its own again.

Thanks again and I will keep you posted.

Warm Regards and Happy Holidays!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 26, 2018, 08:43:45 AM
Hey All,

Took the car out today for the first drive since installing the FiTech system.  I have the idle AFR set at 13.7, I have 1100 AFR set to 13.5 and WOT set somewhere in the 12's (I have forgotten but can go back and check).

This is what I experienced.  From the Driveway, in 1st, as I let off the clutch and throttle up, the AFR dips down from Idle (13.7 or there about) and goes as lean as 15's!, then I shift into 2nd, and the AFR richens up and goes back to where it should be roughly.  From 2nd gear through 3rd  (Not a long street-  LOL) it pulls like a freight train and does not appear to be running lean.

Oddly and of mention, when I am going from 1st to 2nd, and I get the lean condition in the 15's, it does not make the lean popping noise I was getting when I ran the FAST efi and did not have the AFR's dialed in enough.

I am thinking Accel Pump needs to be adjusted, but am not sure as it only really happens in between 1st and 2nd.  I also don't know if I should keep driving the car (even with this lean condition) and let the computer learn a bit more.....  longer drives .....  and then screw with the Accel Pump.

Good to drive it again!  Also, by the way, I purchased a fairly stout "Cragar" hood scoop....  tried my hand at primer, paint and clear with a little wet sanding....  didn't turn out half bad.  I also made it functional so I was able to cut open the area under the scoop to let cooler air in (Cooler air being relative here in South Florida).  Dumps right on top of the Air filter!  I can see Air Temp on the controller, so I would be curious what that reads at highway speed (Ill keep an eye out on my next drive).

Any thoughts on the Lean condition would be welcome.  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on February 26, 2018, 09:25:50 AM
The engine is going lean because the EFI system is not providing enough fuel under the combination of RPM and manifold vacuum that you are experiencing.  It is on a different part of the fuel map when you are doing the other shifts so apparently it is OK there.  If you had an MS3-Pro EFI system I could tell you exactly what to do to fix it, but with a self learning system like the Fitech I don't know how you would address it, other than just driving the car and letting the system "learn" to make the correction, if it is capable of that.  In any case, though, a brief flash to a lean condition is probably not dangerous for the engine.  I think if it was me I'd drive it for a while and see if it self-corrects - Jay
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on February 26, 2018, 09:26:52 AM
As it's running well, I'd drive it (computer learning) a lot....and only afterwards, fool with the pump, fuel pressure, etc.

If btw it running well after the 'learning curve' and some adjustments, thereafter I'd pretty much ignore all the A/F readings and just drive it because....it sounds like your searching for the ultimate readings for all points of the rpm compass. That ain't ever gonna happen!  ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 26, 2018, 10:34:00 AM
Thanks Jay and Bob.  Yea I was fairly happy with the run this weekend.  The only difference between the FiTech settings and the old FAST system I had last year was the accel fuel.  With the FAST efi system, I was getting hesitation between 1st and 2nd, so I adjusted the Accel Fuel pump to +1 and then it smoothed it out.

However, with the FiTech (even though I have the ability to adjust the accel fuel (slow throttle) and Fast accel fuel (stomping on the gas), there was only a little hesitation and no popping , which I was surprised since I was seeing 15 to 15.5 to 1 AFR.  I agree and think that driving it a little more will be best.....  what ever problem is "Left over" after the computer learns, I am sure I can adjust out.

Also, BTW, the FiTech system is both a self learning system or manual input system.  It has the feature to shut off self learning and just adjust the tables yourself with a laptop.  I am definitely not at that level yet.  :0)   Thanks again guys
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 02, 2018, 01:30:50 PM
OK. this may be one of the last posts on this particular forum post, but I wanted to sort of "Round Out" the last issue or 2 from parts in boxes to driving care free!

Over the last few months, I haven't really had the (Courage) time to drive the car.  Mostly because I don't live near by anyone who can help tow me and each time, in the past, I get the car flat-bedded, I get some slack jaw yokum who ends up putting his mark on the car in some sort of damage.  The last doozie was a driver who almost ripped off the front fascia (Saleens are Lowered- So low, you cant get a jack under them).  When I asked him to stop, he told me that "That's why you have insurance and that you should just expect some damage when getting towed!"  Seriously?  Anyway.... that was just one of the 3 or 4 times that tow's have gone bad for me.

But since the weather here has been nice (upper 70's to lower 80's) and the EFI needs mileage in order to learn and run more efficiently, I started to venture out.  10 to 15 miles at a time.  The last time I went out a few weeks ago, it ran beautifully!  No hesitation, no sputtering, no anything!  I let it idle in the driveway to get some heat into the oil.  By that time, the system goes into closed loop and away I go!
The only issue I had (quasi issue) was that at idle, stayed nice and cool.  At highway speed, I was creeping into the 215-220 range.  Just to recap, at the time I had a 16" Pusher fan (2000 CFM) on the drint of the radiator with an aluminum shroud with 2 10" puller fans (about 500 CFM each) and the aftermarket aluminum 3 row radiator.  I ran this issue past Jay and he suggested removing the aluminum shroud and the puller fans and letting it idle in the driveway to make sure the 2000 CFM pusher would keep the engine cool at idle. 

Luckily, after making this "subtraction", the car hit temp at idle of 185 and the ECU turned the fan on and the temp dropped to about 183 and stayed there.  I have the ECU trying to wait for it to drop to 180, but the fan just stays on because it never drops that low.

So with the cooling issue solved, I went for another spin to get a few more miles on the ECU.  Once again, the car drove like a dream except for the Belt squeal that comes and goes randomly.  Its been like this for as long as I can remember and with all of the other Gremlins on this car I have been working through, I really didn't care about belt squeal.....  Figured it was just a really strong engine and maybe the heat under the hood was making it slick?  Dunno...  was just making myself feel better.

I thought this time out I would go a few extra miles and stop at a gas station for a proper fill up rather than with 5 gallon gas cans in the garage!  LOL

The belt started to squeal as I was going 40 in a residential about 1 mile from the station..... and then, as usual, the squeal went away.  Just as I head the squeal stop, I noticed the temp gauge creeping up...  200....  210...  220... 238.

At 238, I shut off the engine and coasted into the gas station!

Got out of the car and ofcourse it sounds like a hot tub party under the hood.  Coolant pouring out.  Popped the hood and there is the belt laying on the bottom spash shield between the engine and radiator.  Snapped!

Long story short, my feared tow truck interaction was soon upon me.  Greatfully, this time I picked an awesome company....  Had aluminum ramps specifically for lowered cars, tie downs don't touch the rims (Rims and tires are brand new and installed on Saturday).  All in all an awesome interaction.  Before he left I got his card and his name and I will feel tons better out and about in the car knowing I can call him to pick me up  LOL

Anyway, back home after Easter Dinner, I wanted to know why.  I decided to test the Pulleys to see if possibly there was a rough edge that was chewing on the bely.  Slowly going all the way around each pulley with my pinkie....  smooth all around.  Lastly I wanted to test pulley alignment.  I used a thin long socket extension and placed it in the water pump pulley.  Holding it at the end, it becomes very secure and doesn't wobble at all.  Spun it around toward the alternator pulley and it was perfectly aligned.  Then it was on to the Water pump Pulley to the Crank Pulley....  Ah Ha!  Slightly off.  It seems that the crank pulley sits a tiny bit proud of the water/alternator pulleys.  Probably just enough to get a screechy belt and slowly eat away at the rubber.  I ordered 2 new belts (keeping a spare in the trunk)....  I ordered some shims for the 3G alternator and also water pump pulley shim kit from Mr. Gasket.  I am going to use a pen laser when shimming the water pump pulley and alternator pulley to make sure I am dead on.  All in all, not that big of a deal and to be sure, this puppy is officially out on the road!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: preaction on April 02, 2018, 03:21:05 PM
Jason, I and Im sure many others hope this is nowhere near your last post about this great story and engine combo you would have never reached almost 114,000 reads of this if this wasn't true keep up the great work.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on April 02, 2018, 07:19:24 PM
First, congrats on finally getting to the end of your project, and being able to enjoy it some!
Second, all the anticipation of reading your thread and all the work you've gone through.....and not a single video of the car being driven, for everyone to see and enjoy, should get you banned ;)

I'll give you a last piece of advice, always carry a few basic necessities in the car with you. I always carry a spare belt, a distributor pick-up, an ignition box, a voltage regulator and the basic tools I'd need to change them. I have a small bag I keep in the trunk to keep it all together and easy to get at. You wouldn't have to carry as much, but a few basics will keep you covered on the main potential trouble pieces.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Drew Pojedinec on April 02, 2018, 08:43:33 PM
Thank god.... I was getting near the point where I was gonna start a gofundme page for gas money so I could bring you two 750's and make your car run :P :P :P
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: TimeWarpF100 on April 02, 2018, 09:36:09 PM
Jason, I and Im sure many others hope this is nowhere near your last post about this great story and engine combo you would have never reached almost 114,000 reads of this if this wasn't true keep up the great work.

Not sure where you got the 114,000 reads its over 400,000 with going on 2000 replies

1994 Replies
413733 Views
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: TimeWarpF100 on April 02, 2018, 09:38:42 PM
OK. this may be one of the last posts on this particular forum post, but I wanted to sort of "Round Out" the last issue or 2 from parts in boxes to driving care free!

Over the last few months, I haven't really had the (Courage) time to drive the car.  Mostly because I don't live near by anyone who can help tow me and each time, in the past, I get the car flat-bedded, I get some slack jaw yokum who ends up putting his mark on the car in some sort of damage.  The last doozie was a driver who almost ripped off the front fascia (Saleens are Lowered- So low, you cant get a jack under them).  When I asked him to stop, he told me that "That's why you have insurance and that you should just expect some damage when getting towed!"  Seriously?  Anyway.... that was just one of the 3 or 4 times that tow's have gone bad for me.

But since the weather here has been nice (upper 70's to lower 80's) and the EFI needs mileage in order to learn and run more efficiently, I started to venture out.  10 to 15 miles at a time.  The last time I went out a few weeks ago, it ran beautifully!  No hesitation, no sputtering, no anything!  I let it idle in the driveway to get some heat into the oil.  By that time, the system goes into closed loop and away I go!
The only issue I had (quasi issue) was that at idle, stayed nice and cool.  At highway speed, I was creeping into the 215-220 range.  Just to recap, at the time I had a 16" Pusher fan (2000 CFM) on the drint of the radiator with an aluminum shroud with 2 10" puller fans (about 500 CFM each) and the aftermarket aluminum 3 row radiator.  I ran this issue past Jay and he suggested removing the aluminum shroud and the puller fans and letting it idle in the driveway to make sure the 2000 CFM pusher would keep the engine cool at idle. 

Luckily, after making this "subtraction", the car hit temp at idle of 185 and the ECU turned the fan on and the temp dropped to about 183 and stayed there.  I have the ECU trying to wait for it to drop to 180, but the fan just stays on because it never drops that low.

So with the cooling issue solved, I went for another spin to get a few more miles on the ECU.  Once again, the car drove like a dream except for the Belt squeal that comes and goes randomly.  Its been like this for as long as I can remember and with all of the other Gremlins on this car I have been working through, I really didn't care about belt squeal.....  Figured it was just a really strong engine and maybe the heat under the hood was making it slick?  Dunno...  was just making myself feel better.

I thought this time out I would go a few extra miles and stop at a gas station for a proper fill up rather than with 5 gallon gas cans in the garage!  LOL

The belt started to squeal as I was going 40 in a residential about 1 mile from the station..... and then, as usual, the squeal went away.  Just as I head the squeal stop, I noticed the temp gauge creeping up...  200....  210...  220... 238.

At 238, I shut off the engine and coasted into the gas station!

Got out of the car and ofcourse it sounds like a hot tub party under the hood.  Coolant pouring out.  Popped the hood and there is the belt laying on the bottom spash shield between the engine and radiator.  Snapped!

Long story short, my feared tow truck interaction was soon upon me.  Greatfully, this time I picked an awesome company....  Had aluminum ramps specifically for lowered cars, tie downs don't touch the rims (Rims and tires are brand new and installed on Saturday).  All in all an awesome interaction.  Before he left I got his card and his name and I will feel tons better out and about in the car knowing I can call him to pick me up  LOL

Anyway, back home after Easter Dinner, I wanted to know why.  I decided to test the Pulleys to see if possibly there was a rough edge that was chewing on the bely.  Slowly going all the way around each pulley with my pinkie....  smooth all around.  Lastly I wanted to test pulley alignment.  I used a thin long socket extension and placed it in the water pump pulley.  Holding it at the end, it becomes very secure and doesn't wobble at all.  Spun it around toward the alternator pulley and it was perfectly aligned.  Then it was on to the Water pump Pulley to the Crank Pulley....  Ah Ha!  Slightly off.  It seems that the crank pulley sits a tiny bit proud of the water/alternator pulleys.  Probably just enough to get a screechy belt and slowly eat away at the rubber.  I ordered 2 new belts (keeping a spare in the trunk)....  I ordered some shims for the 3G alternator and also water pump pulley shim kit from Mr. Gasket.  I am going to use a pen laser when shimming the water pump pulley and alternator pulley to make sure I am dead on.  All in all, not that big of a deal and to be sure, this puppy is officially out on the road!

Nearing done? Its got to be the highest view count and replies to any thread on the INTERNET with little to no pics.

How about giving it a polish and now post pics of the car along with that engine bay. Each time you take a trip or drive somewhere take a pic and post up!

In my opinion this thread is just getting started . . .
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 05, 2018, 09:20:27 AM
Hey Guys.  In the midst of shimming the pulleys, but measurements are alternator and Water pump pulleys aligned, but their alignment is 0.120" off from Crank pulley.  Water pump shim in now and just awaiting arrival of alternator shims in todays mail.  Unsure, but what is the acceptable tolerance on pulley alignment? ( obviously 0.120" is outside of it!) LOL
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on April 05, 2018, 11:54:59 AM
It's not just offset that matters, but they also need to be parallel to each other, or in other words, no offsetting angles. The alternator is usually a little more forgiving since the pulley has some distance to the crank and water pump pulley. Whereas the water pump pulley is so close to the crank pulley, it allows very little room for flex. I'd agree that .120" is too much (roughly 1/8"). 1/16" between the alternator and crank/pump pulleys would likely not cause any problems, but I'm usually not satisfied until they're pretty much dead even. It just takes some patience and trial and error to get it right.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 05, 2018, 03:21:28 PM
Thanks Doug.  I am using a laser to make sure all are aligned as best as possible.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: preaction on April 07, 2018, 06:30:35 PM
Jason, how about some updated pics of your progress. 8)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 09, 2018, 11:16:07 AM
Will Do.  I was using Photobucket like many on here and had a fairly quick way of snapping from my iPhone and transferring to get the link.  I will browse some other apps and see if I cant post soon.  I have tried 3 times to get the wife to take a video while I drive, but she refuses to get in it.  I tried various riggings (including tape) on the iphone, but couldn't get it to work.  I will figure something out and get a video too.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on April 09, 2018, 11:33:13 AM
Smart woman you got there!  ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: mbrunson427 on April 09, 2018, 06:14:40 PM
Will Do.  I was using Photobucket like many on here and had a fairly quick way of snapping from my iPhone and transferring to get the link.  I will browse some other apps and see if I cant post soon.  I have tried 3 times to get the wife to take a video while I drive, but she refuses to get in it.  I tried various riggings (including tape) on the iphone, but couldn't get it to work.  I will figure something out and get a video too.

Here's a story that's actually very on topic at this point in your thread. I don't know a dang thing about fuel injection so I haven't said a word yet.

My uncle owns an 07' Saleen Extreme, black, looks like yours. I'm kind of the caretaker of the car (quite honestly I'm the only one that washes or waxes any of them). We had some friends in town and I pulled up in that car after washing it, friends wife decided she needed a ride in it. I got fairly sideways in 1st gear, punched it into 2nd and let out, she didn't really say anything.......and after about a minute of her not saying anything I realized that she was in some form of shock. Finally she mustered a sentence and she says "get me out of this stupid car". I felt so terrible, she's a really nice lady.

It's a super fast and very fun car to drive. We took it out to an autocross event a couple summers ago and had a great time. The car is definitely better than the driver.

Just looked through my pictures and actually had one of the car. I think this is what yours looks like? For posting pictures I've been using postimages.org, makes it pretty easy.
(https://s31.postimg.org/aae1mkge3/IMG_2637.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: WConley on April 09, 2018, 07:46:11 PM


... I realized that she was in some form of shock. Finally she mustered a sentence and she says "get me out of this stupid car". I felt so terrible, she's a really nice lady...

(https://s31.postimg.org/aae1mkge3/IMG_2637.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
[/quote]

My wife and my motorcycle have a tense relationship for the same reason.  Somehow she doesn't understand the joy of dragging foot pegs in the canyons  :o :o
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Katz427 on April 10, 2018, 08:51:18 AM
I like to hear those stories! Women typically let you know if the ride is "too exciting" by punching you in the back while on a bike, or punching your arm while winding out the car. Once they start throwing punches, time to back it down.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Dan859 on April 10, 2018, 02:53:21 PM
Somewhat the same idea.  I'm home last summer, my son, daughter-in-law, and grandkids come up to visit.  Spend a few days together, Sunday comes.  We're getting ready to go to Mass, and I ask the oldest granddaughter if she wants to ride with me in my car.  My car is a 64 Comet with a 650 Hp 482 and a 5 speed.  She looks at me for a second and says, "ut uh, no way!  I am not even getting in that car!!".  It's got exhaust cutouts and it is pretty loud when the exhaust is open, so I don't think too much about it when she said no.  Well, the 5 yr old starts jumping up and down, and she's like, "I will grandpa, I will!!".  I look at my son, and he's like "Just make sure you do up the seatbelt.".  I get her in and belted, back out onto the street, light the tires up in 1st, then again when I hit 2nd.  I look over to see how my Granddaughter is doing, she looks up at me, grinning from ear to ear, and says, "Grandpa, this is just awesome!  I'll ride with you anytime!".  Couldn't keep her out of the car after that.  Grandkids are great!   
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 30, 2018, 08:37:32 AM
OK so loaded the car up with the tool box, extra belt, extra coolant hoses, "jug" of coolant, fire-extinguisher, etc.  Wanted to put some more miles on the car and with this weekend being in the 90's temperature wise, I also wanted to see if I can still get away with just the one pusher electric fan and no Shroud/Puller fans.

I start the car and let it idle until I get the car up to operating temperature which is about 170 for this EFI system.  By the way, my idle AFR is still at 13.7  Idles well there, but Anytime I go anywhere near this car while its running, I have to shower afterwards because I reek of Fuel!  LOL  I know I may be able to go a little leaner, but I also read that with the cam overlap, my AFR is probably not completely accurate (?).  Plus richer is safer from what I gather.

The good news is that the belt squeal is gone (for now).  I will see if it comes back later as the previous belt that self destructed was on there since 2014 even with the misalignment.  But no noise mean I was clear for the drive.

Engine has no hesitation or bogging issues at my current AFR /timing settings and throttle response is quick.

One issue I have always had and will work on next is deceleration stalling.  I do not like to downshift if I don't have to.  So I usually like to throw it into neutral and slowly come to a stop before a light or when turning.

It seems that if I am cruising in like 4th or 5th (haven't gotten into 6th yet!) and its at about 2200-2400 RPM's and then I put it in neutral to stop, it usually stays running fine.  The RPM's drop almost instantaneously to 1000 (idle) and the engine stays running.  Only very rarely will I put it into Neutral from 2400 RPM and it will not catch itself at 1000 rpm and will slowly lose RPM's (700, then 500, then stall unless I feather the throttle).

If, however I try downshifting and while in the midst of downshifting I get up to like 2700 to 3000 rpm and then put it in neutral, it almost always will start losing RPM's like stated above and will stall if you don't catch it with the throttle.

In reading, there appears to be a feature or features in the EFI that has to due with returning to idle.  I have been reading on "Loop Rate" (up and down) as well as "Decel RPM Decay" and "Decel IAC Decay"  these last 2 appear to need to be changed together in a ratio of 3:1 if I decide to change.

I was going to call the Tech support people and ask them today as well, but I would assume that because the engine really doesn't have high vacuum, that when I throw it into neutral, it would probably be better if I could slow the rate at which it returned to 1000 RPM.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Joey120373 on May 03, 2018, 12:10:00 PM
Jason, what you are describing is not uncommon, stalling on deceleration.

Way back in the day some carbs were equipped with "dashpots" to deal with this issue. It was essentially a device that would cushion or slow the throttle blade just before it closed off completely, so that instead of slamming shut, just before it hit the idle stop, it would hit the dashpot and gradually close to idle.

I am not familiar with your exact fuel injection set up, but i would be surprised if it did not allow you to do the same thing with your idle air control (IAC) motor.
The Megasquirts i work with do this. From idle, as you open the throttle, the IAC opens a bit as well and you can program how many steps it will open from its idle state.
It will stay there until the throttle closes back to idle, then it will close back down to its normal idle position some small amount of time later.
How far it opens, as well as how fast it closes back down, are all adjustable. Some times the opening part is called "throttle following".

You can also do a fuel cut on decell, kind of the opposite of accell enrichment.  If you slam the throttle shut, the engine tends to go very rich. You should be able to tell the ECU to turn off the injectors completely to avoid this. There is usually a threshold rpm that will keep the engine from stalling for lack of fuel. I'm explaining this poorly, but if the throttle is closed and the rpm is greater than, say 1500 rpm, turn the injectors off.
once the rpm drops below 1500 rpm, turn them back on. You can play around with the RPM threshold a bit to get the best results.

The only downside to cutting the fuel ( turning the injectors off completely ) under decell  is that it wont do the cool burbly backfire thing i love so much when comming to a stop sign....
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 03, 2018, 03:25:32 PM
Thanks Joey.  I think your explanation was pretty good  :)  I understood.

Yes the FiTech has the IAC Decay setting which can quicken or slow down the IAC when you let completely off the throttle at a high RPM like I do.  I was told to change it in increments of "10" when I make the changes.  This weekend I plan on testing it out.  Going positive will slow the IAC rate of closure and going negative will quicken how quickly it closes.  Definitely need to change it toward the positive.

Other than that, the car runs beautiful....although a little rich.  I am going to now start slowly raising the AFR at idle 0.1 per drive to see if I can get it to not smell like I poured gas all over myself.  Doesn't burn fuel (Blue smoke), and exhaust is clear at idle....  but God is it RICH!  I think my Idle AFR is 13.7 but I will change to 13.8.... then see how it drives (and returns to idle while under load) and then if all is ok, I'll go up another 0.1 and repeat.  I think the AFR's on the rest of the spectrum are ok as the car doesn't bog or hesitate. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: sixty9cobra on May 03, 2018, 04:23:17 PM
Stinky exhaust at idle means its too lean. Forget the 14:1 its not a smog car.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Joey120373 on May 04, 2018, 02:20:04 PM
when it comes to idle on an engine with anything but a bog stock cam in it, i completely ignore what the A/F and timing settings "should" be, and give the engine what it wants.

Its been my experience that a cam-ed engine will like a richer idle and more base timing than what is generally used for a stock cam.

I don't care about hitting certain numbers, i just go back and forth with fuel and spark till the engine seems happiest, or sounds the best and call it good. Once the engine is over the 1400-1800 rpm range, then i start looking at hitting particular numbers with timing and A/F.

My 2cents.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 07, 2018, 07:20:23 AM
Hey Guys,

OK took the car out again.  I think you all are right.  I really don't care about the smell.  Let it be rich!

Anyway, I have to admit, I am pretty bummed.  About 5 miles into my drive and that stupid belt squeal came back!  I am not really sure this time.  I lined the pulleys up last time with a laser.  The only thing I can think of this time is that the belt is too tight?  The squeal only seemed to happen in the lower gears.  Once up to cruising speed, it went away.

I would love to make this problem go away for good as its always going to nag at me that the belt will snap again.

The belt is really tight.  no slack at all when I try pushing on it with my finger.  However, I can not find any information on line about the proper tension for a V belt on an FE engine.  Read something that you should be able to turn the longest run of the belt 90 degrees but no more if properly tensioned, but that was more just chatter I saw online and not really solid info.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 07, 2018, 09:21:40 AM
You might have to change up your pulley system.  A single groove V-belt (if that's what you've got, I can't remember for sure) is not enough to turn a high amperage alternator when it has to deliver a bunch of current.  I went to a dual belt system for a while but eventually went with a 6 ribbed belt setup, and that solved the problem with my 200 amp Powermaster alternator.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: mbrunson427 on May 07, 2018, 02:21:12 PM
Are you running one of those "Gatorback" belts? I think Jay mentioned it a bit earlier. Had to switch to one on the Cougar after installing the 200A alternator because it was squealing. That style belt took care of it. Was preparing to do 6 ribbed deal, but it hasn't been necessary.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Joey120373 on May 07, 2018, 03:53:19 PM
A single V velt ( im assuming that is what you have ? ) is going to have a hard time with a modern high current alt,
and the problem gets compounded when you have an engine that revs fast.
Are you using new pulleys everywhere? One problem ive had many times with older vehicles is that the v groove in the pulley wears out, it gets cupped and starts looking more like a U than a V, it simply doesn't grab the belt anymore and you cant get rid of the squeal. A new belt  fixes it for a short time, but it will start squealing again.
One other consideration it how far around the pulley the belt actually wraps. The more the better here, its all about surface contact. Ive seen some custom back yard installs that had maybe 20-25% of the pulley covered by the belt, just no hope for that situation, like trying to drag race with the old doughnut spare tires on the back.

Im guessing you are not using old pulleys though, so its a bit of a PITA. A conversion to a serpentine system would probably fix it for good.

The " turn the belt 90 degrees " thing is what we used to go with on serpentine belts if they didn't have a spring loaded tension-er, on a v belt, that method is going to give you a really tight belt.
Too tight a belt can be hard on all the bearings involved, including the crank bearing.
Though i never used one back when i turned wrenches for a living, they had a tool for setting the belt tension. you basically pushed on the longest run of the back of the belt and measured how far it would move, totally pulling this out of my rear end hear but if the belt would move say 1/2 inch it was good, more than that loose, less it was to tight.
Im sure a google search might dredge up something on setting the tention with or without one of these tools. I always just grabbed the belt and wiggled it.   
I feel your pain here, i HATE belt squeal, and it is incredibly irritating when it just wont go away.   
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 08, 2018, 08:45:21 AM
Thanks.  Yes, I am actually using one of those Gatorback belts currently.  Jay had suggested the serpentine system as well.  When doing a little sleuthing online, there seems to be quite a few instances where people did a 3G conversion on an older car (seems pretty popular), and while running V belts, they experience squealing.

I called March Pulleys yesterday, and while they do sell the serpentine system, the gentleman on the phone was almost talking me out of getting on.  He kept saying that if the V belt setup I have on there now is one of theirs (which it is), then there would be no need. 

Obviously there is a need, and I don't mind paying the $300 or so dollars for the conversion kit, but I thought I would try an "in-between" step.  The Crank Pulley and water pump pulley I have from March is a Double Groove (from back when I thought Power Steering was going to happen).  The Alternator pulley is only a single groove.  I was able to find a Matching new pulley that has the double groove for about $25.00.

My thought was to run a double V belt set up.  Seems like double the belt surface area would help and was logical.  If it doesn't work, and I still get squealing, then I'm out 20 dollars and I can move on to the serpentine system.  If it does work, then I saved a cool $275 and I can then find another way to spend it  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 08, 2018, 08:53:31 AM
The double V belt will definitely help, hopefully it solves the problem completely.

Oh, and I've used March pulleys on crank and alternator and still had the squealing issue.  Sounds like you were talking to the March "salesman"  ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on May 08, 2018, 09:00:16 AM
Yep, the dual set-up should help.

Now, some old school stuff! Liquid belt dressing is still sold IIRC and it often times does work. I'd NOT use it until after the dual pulleys are tried. Oddly, even on new belts the dressing does soak into the rubber and essentially provides a non-slip surface. I think of it as rosin as used on a baseball bat! 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 08, 2018, 09:38:32 AM
As a side note, I happen to take pictures of my timing control and AFR's info on the EFI handheld.  I bet I am off in a few of these and small tweaks would make the car run even better.  What are you thoughts on these numbers?


Timing Control:

Distributor Base timing (spark during cranking) = 10.1 degrees

Idle Advance (timing it goes to right after fire-up and while idling)= 16.1 degree

1100 45kPa = 16.9 degrees

3000 45kPa Cruise = 30.0 Degrees

6000 45kPa = 30.0 Degrees

WOT 1100 95kPa = 16.9 Degrees

WOT 3000 95kPa = 30.0 Degrees

WOT 6000 95kPa = 30.0 Degrees


Air Fuel Ratios:

Idle AFR Target = 13.70

1100 45kPa = 13.70

3000 45kPa Cruise 13.70

6000 45kPa = 13.7

WOT 1100 95kPa = 13.5

WOT 3000 95kPa = 13.00

WOT 6000 95kPa = 12.50
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 11, 2018, 06:53:09 AM
Went out and played with the AFR's a bit (at idle).  Got it to the following before I had to quit for the night.  realized I forgot to mention that this car does not have Catalytic Converters.  Didn't have them from they day I purchased. So I am guessing the gas smell is not going to totally go away:

Timing Control:

Distributor Base timing (spark during cranking) = 10.1 degrees

Idle Advance (timing it goes to right after fire-up and while idling)= 16.1 degree

1100 45kPa = 16.9 degrees

3000 45kPa Cruise = 30.0 Degrees

6000 45kPa = 30.0 Degrees

WOT 1100 95kPa = 16.9 Degrees

WOT 3000 95kPa = 30.0 Degrees

WOT 6000 95kPa = 30.0 Degrees


Air Fuel Ratios:

Idle AFR Target = 13.85

1100 45kPa = 13.80

3000 45kPa Cruise 13.70

6000 45kPa = 13.70

WOT 1100 95kPa = 13.5

WOT 3000 95kPa = 13.00

WOT 6000 95kPa = 12.50


I have been reading like crazy on EFI and I think some of the things I am "sure about is are as follows:

1 Cold start needs more fuel (Prime) to start than starting when already at operating temperature.  Apparently this is due to the fact that the fuel on cold ignition does not stay atomized.  It tends to stick to the intake manifold walls.  On the flip side of that, the amount of fuel you would need to get the car to fire right up on a cold start would be too rich when trying to re-start the car at operating temperature.

So, the short of it is that there are 2 different adjustments that need to be made, and these adjustments must operate separate from one another or at least one way.  And what do I mean by one way?

OK FiTech has many different options for setting fuel.  A setting called "Prime Fuel Multiplier" gives a shot of fuel from the injectors at key on to prime for fire up.  When you get the system, this value is set PIG RICH.  So rich infact that its set higher than the maximum you can physically change it to based on the Min and Max values.  As an example, its set to a value of 259.  If you go to change the value manually, it telly you that you can only enter a value between -100 (off) and 100 (?).  If you do change it manually, you will not be able to change it back to 259 as its not within the parameters.  I believe they do this as Richer is safer.  Once you have your IAC set correctly, this 259 value may even be too rich for cold start up.  After much reading and some pretty good youtube videos, this is a valuable tid bit not mentioned in any fitech manual:  Adjust Prime Fuel Multiplier only to get a good start when already at operating temperature.  Because this "Prime" shot will be the same in any condition (hot or cold), and Hot starts have a leaner need, use the prime shot multiplier to get hot starts squared away.  Once you have done this, the engine should fire up instantly when re-starting it after its already at operating temperature.

Now...  this leaves you with a Prime Shot that will be too lean for a cold start!  Well, we are just in luck.  A few entries below the Prime fuel multiplier is cranking fuel settings.  Since we are looking for a slightly richer "environment" when starting the car cold, and we already have a bit of a Prime shot (adjusted for perfect hot starts), we can set a value here that will only add fuel when cranking cold.....  and not hot!  So this way they are independent of one another, but the cold start takes advantage of the smaller prime shot setting and then adds a bit more.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Joey120373 on May 22, 2018, 01:42:25 PM
Ok, Im going to attempt to explain a few things  here, keep in mind i'm no expert, and as usual im going to butcher it, badly, but here goes.

Cold start up was always one of the things that took me the longest to get dialed in. You get one shot at a true cold start, then you have to wait for the engine to completely cool down again, usually the next morning.

So, if memory serves me here, you have  a "Priming pulse" that squirts fuel into the engine when the key is turned on, like pumping the gas on an old car before you crank it. This pulse is longer on a cold engine, and much closer to the idle pulse width on a hot engine.

Then there is "after start enrichment", this adds extra fuel on top of the calculated fuel needed just after start up, this is usually only for a short period of time, this is timed in seconds or even counted engine revolutions. This is to counter act the cold, dry manifold. There will always be a certain volume of fuel that clings to the walls of the port, it moves along the port with the airflow, but no where near as fast. the colder the manifold, and the slower the engine speed, generally the more volume of a given fuel injection event tends to stick. Just after the engine fires up, the fuel that is clinging to the walls starts migrating to the valve, and within a short amount of time, the manifold is fully "wet-ed" and the amount of fuel that gets to the combustion chamber off the walls remains relatively stable, cycle to cycle. So that's the main purpose of this setting, to account for the fact that, until the manifold is fully wet-ed, it will run pretty lean just after start up.

Then, finally you have Cold Enrichment, or Choke. This acts exactly like a choke would on a carb, it is more tied to engine temp. It adds fuel to compensate for the fact that more fuel sticks to a cold manifold vs a hot one.

All three of these enrichment's taper off as the engine runs longer and/or warms up, but the tricky part is they all overlap each other. Getting them right involves a lot of trial and error, and paying very close attention to how the engine fires up and runs immediately after start up.

To add to the tuning troubles,  the A/F ratio the engine wants to run at, at a cold or even warmed up idle, can be a fairly arbitrary number. So watching the O2 can be a great help, but only if you take this into into account. Speaking of the O2, most take a good 30-60 seconds to warm up.
If you just hop in and start the engine, you wont get valid readings till long after the priming pulse and after start enrichment have done their thing.
So turning the key to the on position, then waiting a till the O2 is warm before firing the engine can help.

So, don't get discouraged. For me at least, tuning cold starts was always the trickiest and took the longest. Sometimes i got lucky, and others it seemed i was chasing my tail for weeks.
 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 24, 2018, 07:37:34 AM
Thanks Joey,

Definitely one of those things that you have to "Do" to get experienced and not just read about it.  I actually am getting a little help with the tuning (more to come on that), but for starters.....  My Idle AFR is now 14.7  LOL  I was way off into Rich territory.  I think I understand that with Cam Overlap, the O2 sensor will actually not be totally accurate.  I would go from 13.5 to 14.0, and not hear any difference in the idle.  I was not even thinking about going leaner that 14.0, but apparently my ideal idle AFR is 14.7!  LOL  Now you can still smell fuel (Well....  it is a race engine), but at least I don't need to take a shower after standing next to it while its at idle.  Thank you for the explanation.  Any and all info I can get on EFI is helpful.

:0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 07, 2018, 06:46:29 AM
Good Morning all,

Here is some fun news.  I wanted to wait until all was settled before announcing.  For those of you who wanted me to post videos of the car (and I haven't been able to), the car will be on TV!!!

The car will be on CarFix (Velocity Channel) on August 8th.  The hosts of the show, Jared Zimmerman and Lou Santiago will be fiddl'n with the car on TV and taking it for a drive.  The show had the car for about 2 weeks.  They cleaned up some of my "just get it to work" wiring.  They also were the ones who dialed in my AFR's.  My apologies for now getting video's of the car on here earlier, but hopefully the episode (CF709 is the episode number) will be fun to watch!  Stay tuned......
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: 62Falcon390 on June 07, 2018, 02:00:17 PM
so we gotta wait 2 more month?  :-\    that's awesome
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on June 07, 2018, 02:50:17 PM
I saw all of the go-pro suction marks on the car when I got it back, so I'm sure they got pretty good footage!  I'm excited to see myself.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on August 19, 2018, 10:35:39 AM
So? How’s it running?
(https://s33.postimg.cc/vi50g1xe7/522882_E5-7093-4_DAB-9_E8_A-697399_F90087.jpg)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on August 22, 2018, 09:53:35 AM
LOL  Much better!!!  The part where they changed the Cam selection to "2" up from "4" goes against everything FiTech says in their instructions....  But when I visited the guys on set, they said they had them on the phone when they were trying to lean it up a bit..... and they couldn't get it either......until they changed the Cam Selection to 2.  Then it allowed them to lean it up at idle.  Don't know why, but I am greatful it worked!

Since that time, I have also changed the brakes over to Wilwoods.  6 piston's in the front and 4 pistons in the rear.  Rotors are drilled and slotted.

And am in the middle of adding in a Moroso 3qt Accusump.  Even through its advertised as a 3 qt, the accusump holds 1.5 quarts of oil (plus what ever amount in the actual lines running to the engine) when the pre-charge is set to 10 psi, which is the precharge they recommend.  Planning on 8 quarts in the pan plus the 1.5 on the accusump for a total of 9.5 quarts. 

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on August 22, 2018, 08:11:12 PM
Glad to hear you are adding the Accusump!  Especially with the oil pan on your engine, that will give you a great safeguard against loss of oil pressure.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on January 22, 2019, 03:33:44 PM
Thanks Jay.  Yes, got the Accusump installed and all plumbed up.  I managed to get a "nifty" pressure chart (which does not come with the actual product) that lets you know the capacity given various pre-charges and oil pressure while running.

The youtube video's suggest a precharge of somewhere between 10psi and 15psi.  That would give me a capacity of 2.5 quarts, but very little "backpressure" to push that oil into the engine.  Looking at the chart, at about 40 PSI, the capacity is 2 quarts at 70 PSI of oil pressure.  I feel like at only a reduction of a half quart in capacity, I get more back pressure to push the 2 quarts in reserve into the engine when needed.

It may need some fine tuning as I go, but if I remember correctly, at like 2500 rpm the oil pressure stays up around 70.   Anyone, please feel free to put in any thoughts on use or setup.

One thing I did want to mention is that with an accusump, you are not supposed to use an oil filter with a bypass!  So I had to switch over to an oil filter without a bypass.  Would feel better if I could have stayed with a bypass filter  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on January 22, 2019, 03:54:43 PM
And what is the oil filter and number you did use?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Mistral_427TP on January 22, 2019, 07:16:00 PM
Could you post a picture of your "nifty" pressure chart?  I'm using a Moroso 3qt Accusump.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on January 23, 2019, 12:13:14 PM
Hi Mistral,

After Photobucket, I never found another picture "host".  If you give me your email address, I can send it to you.

Machoneman:  Its a Jomar 9025 (purchased from Jegs).  Part # is 519-9025.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: turbohunter on January 23, 2019, 01:28:25 PM
After Photobucket, I never found another picture "host".

Try these guys.
Use the largest resize.
https://postimages.org
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on January 23, 2019, 04:02:36 PM
Hi Mistral,

After Photobucket, I never found another picture "host".  If you give me your email address, I can send it to you.

Machoneman:  Its a Jomar 9025 (purchased from Jegs).  Part # is 519-9025.
THX!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on January 23, 2019, 04:48:02 PM
Jason, the Accusump precharge is with an empty unit.  By the time it fills with your 2-1/2 quarts of oil, it will be under the same pressure as the oil in the engine, maybe 70-80 psi.  So your first quart of oil will go in at close to the same pressure as the normal oil pressure.  Your last half quart could go in with only minimal pressure, down as low as the precharge pressure, but it will only go in at that pressure if the oil pump is providing even less pressure.   I don't think even with your oil pan you would get down that low, unless there was a big hole in it  ;D

Remember also that the oil will only go into the engine if the oil pressure from the pump drops.  When you are idling at 20 psi of oil pressure, most of the oil will be out of the Accusump and in the engine.  Then, when you start driving down the road at 70 psi, that extra oil is forced back into the Accusump.  Think of it more as a pressure reservoir, designed to keep the oil pressure up in case the oil pump runs dry for some reason.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: 67428GT500 on January 23, 2019, 06:34:37 PM
No link to the video?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Mistral_427TP on January 23, 2019, 06:46:29 PM
Hi Mistral,

After Photobucket, I never found another picture "host".  If you give me your email address, I can send it to you.

Machoneman:  Its a Jomar 9025 (purchased from Jegs).  Part # is 519-9025.
 
 Thanks cobracammer.   My email address is:  cobra @ idirect.com   remove spaces!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on January 24, 2019, 03:06:54 PM
Jason, the Accusump precharge is with an empty unit.  By the time it fills with your 2-1/2 quarts of oil, it will be under the same pressure as the oil in the engine, maybe 70-80 psi.  So your first quart of oil will go in at close to the same pressure as the normal oil pressure.  Your last half quart could go in with only minimal pressure, down as low as the precharge pressure, but it will only go in at that pressure if the oil pump is providing even less pressure.   I don't think even with your oil pan you would get down that low, unless there was a big hole in it  ;D

Remember also that the oil will only go into the engine if the oil pressure from the pump drops.  When you are idling at 20 psi of oil pressure, most of the oil will be out of the Accusump and in the engine.  Then, when you start driving down the road at 70 psi, that extra oil is forced back into the Accusump.  Think of it more as a pressure reservoir, designed to keep the oil pressure up in case the oil pump runs dry for some reason.

Hi Jay,

OK so if I keep the 10-12 psi recommended precharge, then I will have 2.5 quarts capacity.  When I am at idle (warm), and have like 20-25 psi oil pressure, there will be only a little oil (negligible in the accusump (20 PSI in the engine and only 14PSI holding it back in the accusump precharge).

So then I go out for a drive, and at 2500 to 3000 RPM, I am at about 70 - 75 psi engine oil pressure.  At this oil pressure, the full 2.5 quarts is pushed back into the accusump.

Then say I hit high RPM's while shifting or hard cornering and the engine oil runs low in the pan and the pressure starts to drop....The accusump will inject oil back into the system.

I think where I get hazy is.....  Its getting injected back into the engine at the high RPM pressure of 70 PSI right?  Basically at 14 PSI precharge, I am just ensuring the piston in the chamber completly pushes all the oil out...... and has no effect on what pressure its injected back at?  Does that random line of thought sentence make sense?  :0)

Thanks again 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on January 24, 2019, 03:09:10 PM
No link to the video?

Sorry, no video.  You can watch the Carfix episode on your DVR on demand  Its season 7 episode 9 ( I think) called "Cammer Saleen"  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on January 24, 2019, 03:35:14 PM

I think where I get hazy is.....  Its getting injected back into the engine at the high RPM pressure of 70 PSI right?  Basically at 14 PSI precharge, I am just ensuring the piston in the chamber completly pushes all the oil out...... and has no effect on what pressure its injected back at?  Does that random line of thought sentence make sense?  :0)

Thanks again

Jason, that is sort of correct.  If all 2-1/2 quarts are injected back into the engine, the last little bit will go in at your precharge pressure.  The first little bit that is injected will go in at the 70 psi pressure.  As the oil is injected, the pressure in the system will drop, but it will always stay above zero, which is what happens if the oil pump pickup runs dry.  So the Accusump will save your engine in that case. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: 62Falcon390 on February 04, 2019, 08:52:46 PM
how is the accusump working out for you? I have the same oil pan,, and got me thinking about getting one

Rick
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 05, 2019, 01:52:55 PM
Hey Rick.  Works well.  Installed in prob 1 hour (have mine mounted in the trunk).  I would definitely recommend it!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: 62Falcon390 on February 05, 2019, 02:21:17 PM
mounted in the trunk? don't you have to shut the valve off every time? Im not real sure how they work, guess I should read up
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on February 05, 2019, 05:44:36 PM
You can buy electrically operated remote valves for the Accusump, makes life a little easier...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on February 08, 2019, 03:57:08 PM
Exactly.  Sorry, forgot to mention.  The valve is electrically controlled by the ignition.  At ignition on, the valve opens and allows a pre-oil (Prime).  It takes a few seconds, but you can actually see the oil pressure gauge "lift" a little.  Also, its kind of timed perfectly as the EFI does a pre-squirt of fuel to assist with start up.  So an oil and fuel 2 for 1!  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: 62Falcon390 on February 09, 2019, 08:06:50 AM
ok, I will check into this option, thanx
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: KMcCullah on March 24, 2019, 10:57:10 AM
I just caught Jared and Lou tweeking on your car, Jason. It sure turned out to be cool hot rod. Bad fast too! I'm having a hard time believing the Red Top Optima battery was bad already. But who knows. They did make some improvements I think. I'm liking the Fitech stuff too.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on March 25, 2019, 08:15:09 AM
Hey Kevin!  Thanks.  You are correct...  The optima was not bad, however they needed things to "Tweak" on for their to be a show  LOL  My old Optima was put back in after the show (however they let me keep the Autozone battery).  Also, the spark plugs (generic) they were putting on for the filming were also for show.  They never took my plugs off, but just made a plug or 2 for the scene.

The Guys, Jared and Lou, were super awesome.  I got to hang out on set for some of the filming.  They managed to dial in my fitech system and clean up some of my amateur wiring.  All in all a great experience!

 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on March 25, 2019, 09:51:07 PM
You can buy electrically operated remote valves for the Accusump, makes life a little easier...

Hey Jay, what kind of restriction do the electric valves have? From what I have seen, the electrics generally have a small orifice which would negate the benefit of the Accusump, IMO. On my install, I used a manual shutoff valve from a local farm/tractor store that is called a "full port". The i.d. is around 9/16" and it is 1/2"NPT in/out. I located it where it is mostly hidden, but I can manually operate the throttle and close the valve at the same time.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on March 26, 2019, 08:12:10 AM
I've never taken one apart to look, to be honest, but I am always amazed at how much oil can flow through a small orifice.  If your oil pressure suddenly drops to zero when the oil runs away from the pickup, those electric valves flow enough to keep the pressure up, in my experience.  I agree that a large orifice in the valve is better, but I don't think its absolutely necessary.  You are only providing oil to the engine for the brief time when the pickup runs dry.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on March 26, 2019, 12:51:40 PM
I agree that a large orifice in the valve is better, but I don't think its absolutely necessary.  You are only providing oil to the engine for the brief time when the pickup runs dry.

Exactly. That is when you are most dependant on it....  ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on April 30, 2019, 02:16:08 PM
Hello all.  I haven't posted in a while, but I have been busy.  I have been setting up a little machine shop in my workshop in addition to working on little things on the "Cammer Saleen"  lol.

I was working with Jay in order to "try" something to make the Saleen OEM tachometer work on the dash cluster.  Many years ago, when I read an article of someone who put a 427 SOHC in a 2005 Mustang GT, the article said that the only thing that they could not figure out (as the owner wanted it to look as stock as possible) was the Tach!  The shop he was working with ended up just mounting one of those large aftermarket tach's on the dashboard.  A few years ago, I was trying to figure out if I could make it work.  I did months of reading on Forums and internet "chat" and figured out that the Saleen dash gauges are looking for a 5V square wave signal, where as the MSD ignition box gave off a 12 volt square wave.  I reached out to a colleague at the University in the engineering department and he drafted me up a little electrical diagram to convert 12V square wave to 5V square wave.  Jay was kind enough to assist me with the part and after it arrived, I ........... put it in my end table.  Unfortunately, there was a ton of other things going on with the car that took precedence.  Fast forward about 4 years, and my interest was re-ignited.  After a little more light reading, I realized that the modern mustangs get their tach signal from a reluctor wheel inside the crank case-using a Crank Position sensor.  Luckily, as I was a bit anal retentive, I did not remove anything from the original engine wiring harness.  Not only that, but all the unused plugs were nicely marked with tags!
I reached back out to Jay looking to see if he had heard of a Ford specific (?) reluctor wheel that I could mount outside the engine (perhaps on a pulley or the dampner).  I had seen crank triggers (eg. MSD), but they did not seem to have the correct amount of teeth-(to me at least) and there really wasnt much info if they would work with a stock crank trigger.  Luckily Jay knew exactly what I was talking about and agreed to make me one that he produces.  The custom crank spacer had to be machined down to account for this new addition as well.

Now for the fun part.....  Got the reluctor wheel mounted between the crank dampner and the pulley.  Made the trip up to home depot to get a section of angle iron that I could make a mounting bracket out of (was using angle iron as it was thick and rigid and was not going to wobble or flex and allow the sensor to hit the reluctor).  After a few hours of cardboard templates, angle grinding, drilling, angle grinding some more and cleaning....  I mounted the make shift bracket on the back of the lower alternator arm.   Then, using a shop light from above, I got the OEM crank sensor mounted through an appropriately sized hole in the bracket and adjusted so I could just see a sliver of light between the end of the sensor and a tooth on the reluctor wheel.  I would be surprised if a piece of paper would fit in between....  but there was space, so no interference..... and with the bracket made of angle iron, I could not budge it a bit.

Fired the car up and OH YEAH!  Dash cluster tachometer is working!

Second story.....

Now that the car runs well after the "Car Fix" tune.  I have been taking it out just to get some miles on it.  90 degree days and the engine never gets to 200 degrees! 

The last time I took it out, I started to hear what sounded like..... and I will take this from someone who had the same issue on their Z06 corvette I read about on a forum.... someone sharpening an ice skate.  This noise only happened at 4th gear and about and from what I was experiencing, more so when I was holding speed steady.  If I was in 1st, 2nd or 3rd.... no noise.  Also, if I pushed the clutch in when and put it in neutral the noise would disappear.  This led me to believe that it was not the rear end.

OK so what could it be?  I did realize on the way home that the car- and engine have less than 100 miles on it total!  So not even really close to being broken in.

I also realized that the clutch and transmission were still smooth as butter....  hmmm  ....better do some more reading.

What I have come up with is that I am using a McLeod RST twin disc clutch.  From everything I read about them, they are AWESOME clutches....  Light pedal, tons of grip......  but super noisy!  I also read that a properly broken in clutch takes 500 miles of normal driving.  There were a few Youtube videos of Clutch reviews which I heard the same noise, so not super worried.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 01, 2019, 02:50:04 PM
Doing a bit more reading and it appears that some people with McLeod (or other) twin disc clutches have the noise and others do not.  There have been a few cases where someone who was experiencing the noise switched back from a 1 piece drive shaft to the stock 2 piece drive shaft on the mustang and it completely went away....  It appears that its a normal harmonic from a twin disc clutch which is resonating through the one piece drive shaft if the pinion angle is off!

I will not be switching back to a 2 piece driveshaft, but I will definitely be looking into my pinion angle.  I think from what I have been reading, the S197 Mustang required a -2 degree pinion angle (difference between the driveshaft and the rear end yolk flange.  So the example given was if your driveshaft is at -2 degrees, you want your rear end at 0 (for a total of -2).  I will test this on mine and if needed, possibly add an adjustable upper control arm to correct.  Live and learn  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 02, 2019, 10:09:23 AM
Was able to get out and measure it today.  I get the transmission yolk at 1 degree,  driveshaft angle at 3 Degrees and the rear pinion yolk at 6 degrees.  I spent all morning reaching out to various Auto suppliers trying to get them to tell me what my ideal angle is for my application and how to determine what I have.

From what I am reading, since its stock bushings on the rear suspension, I am looking for -2 to -3 pinion angle.



Does anyone with a bit more experience know what I am looking at and what needs adjusting???
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 02, 2019, 10:53:50 AM
Probably a 2 degree down angle on the pinion is about right.  This allows the differential to rotate up a couple degrees under torque application so that it is well aligned with the driveshaft.  Your angles may be correct as-is, but its hard to tell from your message because you haven't specified up or down.  For example, is the rear of the transmission pointed down 1 degree from level, or up 1 degree from level?  Is the nose of the differential pointed down 6 degrees from level, or up 6 degrees?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 02, 2019, 12:19:15 PM
Hello Jay.  Thank you.  I will try and explain more and try using + and -:

The tail shaft of the transmission is pointing down towards the ground (-1 degree)

The drive shaft is is lower near the rear end (so also pointing down at an angle of -3 degrees)

The rear end yolk is facing towards the front of the car and is facing up at +6 degrees.

so in looking at this as a whole....  I think the rear end is 5 degrees steeper of an angle than the transmission tail shaft (out of parallel).



Many mustang forums says (-2 degrees) to account for acceleration (rotation of the rear end) as well.


It feels like (when I draw it out), that I would have to decrease the rear end angle (make the yolk point more toward the floor so that when the rear end rotates under acceleration, it is equal to the angle of the transmission tail shaft.

If this is the case, the yolk would need to be (-1 degree) so that when I accelerate, it rotates clockwise (pushing the rear end yolk up -or clockwise if looking at it from the drivers side) about 2 degrees making it 1 degree or parallel to the trans tail stock?

Thanks again for your help!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 02, 2019, 01:03:41 PM
Jason, I think you are right about that.  If the driveshaft is down at the back, and the down angle is 3 degrees, then you should have the pinion end of the differential about level, or maybe pointing up 1 degree.  Having it point up 1 degree would make it parallel to the transmission output shaft, if I understand you correctly.  If you set it up like that, when the car accelerates, the pinion angle will want to go up from level to maybe 2 or 3 degrees, bringing it close to parallel with the driveshaft.

As the car is set up now, again if I understand correctly the angle between the driveshaft and the pinion will actually be increasing under acceleration, which is not what you want.

Time for some rear suspension adjustments  :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 02, 2019, 01:26:00 PM
Hi Jay!  Thanks.  I was going to shoot for (-1 degrees) for the rear end pinion (pointing down towards the front of the car).  This way, under acceleration, it will rotate upwards about 2 degrees  making it +1 degree (so parallel with the transmission tail stock).  If I am trying to just get the transmission output shaft and the rear end pinion in parallel under acceleration, why do we take a measurement on the 1 piece driveshaft?  is that angle irrelevant when the rear end and transmission are in parallel?

I just ordered a BMR adjustable Upper control arm.  The Currie 9" i got for this car was a direct replacement for the stock 8.8, so I was able to retain all of the OEM suspension hardware (lower control arms, upper control arm, panhard bar....)

What I wasn't thinking about at that time was that Currie made it as a direct replacement with the stock engine, trans and 2 piece driveshaft!!

With all of these changes, I seem to be off quite a bit (under acceleration, I was  prob at +8 or +9 while the trans output shaft (tailstock) was still at -1...... So possibly the cause of those weird harmonics?

Either way, ill swap it out, adjust it for the correct pinion angle, and let you know what comes of it.    ;D  Thanks again!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on May 02, 2019, 03:55:30 PM
With all of these changes, I seem to be off quite a bit (under acceleration, I was  prob at +8 or +9 while the trans output shaft (tailstock) was still at -1...... So possibly the cause of those weird harmonics?

Yes, it is possible yet you'll know pretty quickly after the changes.

Btw, there are a number of sites that talk about and show pictorially what are ideal, if not acceptable, driveshaft angles. In many a low powered car it may not make a lot of difference. But, in yours and especially when you beat on it with all the JB power (!) it's not hard to start breaking stuff even when the angles are perfect (ask me and other racers, current or former, about this!).

Wolfe's is one of many but...note their chart at the very bottom of the page on solid versus poly versus stock mounts. What they are saying is under load, some other variables do affect the car's pinion angle.

https://www.wolferacecraft.com/pinionangle.aspx
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Bolted to Floor on May 02, 2019, 06:50:52 PM
Jason, there is a TREMEC tool box app for a smart phone that covers driver line angles. You use your phone to measure the angles and it gives you a pass or fail. I doubt the explanation for a fail will be as good as the advice already posted .
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 03, 2019, 07:26:01 AM
Thanks Guys....  visited the site and also downloaded the app!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: BigBlueIron on May 03, 2019, 10:56:14 AM
If I am trying to just get the transmission output shaft and the rear end pinion in parallel under acceleration, why do we take a measurement on the 1 piece driveshaft?  is that angle irrelevant when the rear end and transmission are in parallel?

 Also offset needs to be added for u joint angle. Are the trans and rear pinion perfectly centered in the car? Usually not. But worry about that after pinion angle is corrected. How long is the shaft anyway?

Example for why measuring the shaft matters, say both pinions are at an equal but parallel 2* trans down 2 axle up 2. And theoretical 1* on the shaft. This would provide an operating angle of 1* on the trans u joint and 1* at the axle u joint. Well within the recommend 3*
 Now raise the engine/trans straight up 3 feet with all else being the same, this will greatly increase the shaft angle, say to 8*. Now our operating angle is 6* at the trans and 6* at the axle. This is where multiple shafts and or cv joints come into play.

I would shoot for 0 or +1 Keeping angles parallel is the most important part and key for smooth operation. This is ultimately a cruiser right? If you go to a negative angle on the pinion the only time angles will be parallel is under heavy acceleration as the axle tries to rotate. 

Ether way I bet you see a great improvement. That rear axle is way off lol! Look forward to hearing the results.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 09, 2019, 11:20:00 AM
OK adjustable Control arm came yesterday.  I just spend about 3 hours in the garage trying to adjust this thing to get the optimal pinion angle....  I don't know why this is kicking my butt!!!

Here is where I am now.  Transmission tail stock is pointing down at 2 * ......  drive shaft is pointing down (front to back) at 5*

The rear end pinion yolk is up towards the transmission at 2* 

My iPhone only does whole numbers in degrees, but I was going to go back in later with the Tremex app and get measurements as it measures to the nearest thousandth.

I think setting the pinion angle ideally for a Mustang at -2 degrees per Ford assumes you still have the stock 2 piece driveshaft so with a 1 piece driveshaft, I am not sure if that's different.

Spicer has this:

Rule 1: Universal joint operating angles at each end of a driveshaft should always be at least one-half degree

Rule 2: Universal joint operating angles on each end of a driveshaft should always be equal within one degree of each other (one half degree for motor homes and shafts in front of transfer cases or auxiliary devices)

Rule 3: For vibration-free performance, universal joint operating angles should not be larger than three degrees. If they are, make sure they do not exceed the maximum recommended angles.

I am at exactly 3 degrees operating angles with the whole number measurements above. 

leave as is?????
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 09, 2019, 11:50:05 AM
What you want is for the transmission output shaft angle to align with the pinion angle under load.  So, assuming the rear axle housing rotates the pinion up 2-3 degrees under load, then at rest the pinion angle should be down relative to the trans output shaft angle.  Sounds like yours is perfectly aligned at rest.  I would bring the pinion angle down to level (0 degrees), so that when it rotates up 2 degrees under load they will be aligned.

I'm assuming you are doing this with the weight on the tires and the car about level?  That's very important.  Also I'm assuming that your suspension allows the differential housing to rotate a little, which would be normal for a stock type suspension.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 09, 2019, 12:55:55 PM
Hi Jay.

Yes, I have the car up on Jackstands (with the rear jack stands under the axle at about the spring perches.  Front suspension is not compressed, but the car is level.

I just went out and measured with the Tremec app which (I was mistaken in an earlier post), does 1 decimal point rather than whole numbers.

I went off the crankshaft pulley this time for the transmission angle....  getting 2.8 degrees.  When I was measuring before with just the iphone level app, it would say 2 degrees if it was 2.1 all the way to 2.9 (no decimal). So solidly off the crankshaft pulley -2.8 Degrees down.

Driveshaft measured by the transmission output, in the middle and at the rear pinion.... -5 degrees down.

Rear pinion... this time I used a socket to fit on top of the u-joint cap.  Then took my measurement off of the socket as a perfectly flat surface.  I got 1.9 degrees.

It looks like I would need to be at about 0.8 at the pinion so under power, I am at about 2.8 (equal to the trans output).

When I use spicer's pinion angle calculator website, and put in my values with the 0.8 (where my pinion angle should be at rest), I get an operating angle of over 4 (they say not to go over 3).
 
Should I be plugging in my angles with the assumption its under power? so use 2.8 for the rear (since that's where it will be under power?)

Thanks again!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on May 09, 2019, 06:22:55 PM
It sounds like you have the jack stands under the axle housing. If that is the case, the rear may be on a bit of a bind with all the weight  resting on it and may change slightly after you remove the jack stands. The best way is to support under the tires on all corners, as it would be on the ground. An alignment rack is your friend for this job...
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 09, 2019, 08:37:55 PM
+1 on what Jared said, get it resting on the tires, at least at the back, before you confirm the angles.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 10, 2019, 07:30:06 AM
Thanks guys.  Before I read this, I was out tinkering.  I managed to get the rear end (pinion yolk) pointing slightly up at 0.8 degrees.  This would mean that under load, it would rise an additional 2.0 degrees and be at a total of 2.8.  With the transmission tailstock (also measured the crank pulley for verification), also at 2.8 degrees, the two should be in parallel under load.

Im still "miffed" that this is such a hard concept to grasp!  I think where a lot of confusion comes from is that all the "how to" and instructions out there has you setting your pinion angles in parallel at rest!  No one mentions anything about changes under load!

Also, anything for a S197 Mustang only shows taking measurements off of the rear pinion and the back part of the 2 piece driveshaft to get your -2 degree.

As I do not have access to a 4 post lift at this time, I will certainly try and locate someone (or try something) to get the rear wheels resting on a solid surface and remeasure.  Hopefully it will still measure the same and I can take it out for a spin.

Also I wanted to mention that there are a few ways in which they say to measure angle on the rear pinion.  First is to find a flat surface on the pinion near where it attaches to the U joint (preferably machined).  The other is to turn the driveshaft until one of the rear pinion U joint caps is pointing straight down.... then use a socket that will fit on top of the u joint cap and take a measurement off of it.

I did both just to see, and I got no where near the same values!  I definitely went  with the value off of the socket on a U joint cap.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on May 10, 2019, 07:53:01 AM
As I do not have access to a 4 post lift at this time, I will certainly try and locate someone (or try something) to get the rear wheels resting on a solid surface and remeasure.  Hopefully it will still measure the same and I can take it out for a spin.

I'm almost hesitant to recommend this as perhaps you've thought of these ideas but....buy or steal some rough wood, the bigger the better, nail same together and place same under all 4 wheels. Better, get 4 steel milk crates and use them instead. Get two of those steel drive-up ramps but with removable ramps. I'm usually hesitant to drive a car up them but they can be used after jacking the car up with your floor jack and just use the horizontal part under the tires.

Heck, even these work well and cheap too: https://www.homedepot.com/p/8-in-x-8-in-x-16-in-Concrete-Block-100825/202323962

I've had to do the same or even build wood ramps to get under really low cars that even a std. floor jack was hard to get under the car. That and getting the car level but up in the air to more easily set toe, caster and check Ackermann angles.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: rcodecj on May 10, 2019, 08:12:29 AM
As I do not have access to a 4 post lift at this time, I will certainly try and locate someone (or try something) to get the rear wheels resting on a solid surface and remeasure.  Hopefully it will still measure the same and I can take it out for a spin.

I'm almost hesitant to recommend this as perhaps you've thought of these ideas but....buy or steal some rough wood, the bigger the better, nail same togehter and place same under all 4 wheels. Better, get 4 steel milk crates and use them instead. Get two of those steel drive-up ramps but with removable ramps. I'm usually hesitant to drive a car up them but they can be used after jacking the car up with your floor jack and just use the horizontal part under the tires.

Heck, even these work well and cheap too: https://www.homedepot.com/p/8-in-x-8-in-x-16-in-Concrete-Block-100825/202323962

I've had to do the same or even build wood ramps to get under really low cars that even a std. floor jack was hard to get under the car. That and getting the car level but up in the air to more easily set toe, caster and check Ackermann angles.

No way on the concrete blocks. I've seen them explode after putting a cars weight on them.

Edit to say concrete blocks hold up houses but they are mounted flat side to the side not like a car with flat side to the top. Maybe that's the difference? I'd like to hear other peoples thoughts on this.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cjshaker on May 10, 2019, 11:43:41 AM
Concrete blocks wouldn't be a problem IF you use them flat sides out, like they're intended to be used, AND you use a section of 2x8 or 2x10 on the tops and bottoms. The wood keeps from forming hard pressure points that can fracture the blocks. It might not be OSHA approved, but it'll work fine. They can hold a lot of weight when used with some common sense. Getting the car jacked up high enough to get the blocks and 2 2x boards under each wheel might be a tougher matter.

DO NOT use them with the flat sides to the top/bottom!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 10, 2019, 02:09:56 PM
May try that....  but of course a few 12 ton jack stands under the car (not in contact).  If the blocks give way, I would rather it fall an inch or 2 onto jack stands rather than a foot or 2 me   ;)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 11, 2019, 11:54:06 AM
Ok, got it up and on cement blocks.  Wood under the block and on top.  Jack stands for safety.

Best I could do was 0.5 for the rear end pinion.

Trans is still 2.8

Driveshaft ended up being 3.4?

With 2 degrees under power, that will put the rear end at 2.5 pointing at trans
And trans pointing at rear at 2.8

Couldnt get any closer.  Will this be ok?

Thanks again
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: jayb on May 11, 2019, 10:21:31 PM
Sounds close enough to me - Jay
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on May 13, 2019, 01:02:43 PM
Thanks! Took it out this weekend and I just wanted to give any update (closure of sorts) to the whole rear end pinion angle vs noise at highway speed.

Yes, much quieter.  However, I am still getting a little noise which I can confirm from other "Product review videos" is from the McLeod twin disc clutch. 

Other than that, good to go!  Thanks everyone for your input :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 09, 2019, 08:03:07 AM
"Ix-Nah" on the whole closure thing from my previous post!  So this is how the story goes......

After install of the BMR adjustable upper control arm for the rear end, I would get a horrible knocking/ clunking sound going over bumps while coasting or slowing down (akin to possibly a loose strut noise).  Not only that, nut the howling/ squealing noise was still very much there.

Since the only change was the adjustable control arm, I swapped it back out for the stock unit and noise was gone!  In doing a little more light reading, it came to light that the BMR upper adjustable control arm is known for making that knock/ clunk if you don't use their custom frame bracket (and just use the Stock one).

A few weeks later, while out shopping, I decided I needed a few more tools which included a proper "angle finder".  When I got home, I jacket the car back up and placed it up on blocks so it was sitting at ride height with weight on the wheels.  Using my new angle finder, I wanted to find out exactly where my Pinion angle was and this time for sure!  The first place I measured was the Crank pulley.  I used a flat metal bar to span across the pulley from top to bottom and the angle finder showed 2.8 Degrees.  Then I wanted to get a solid reading off of the rear differential....  to do this, even though there are like 10 different methods online people use, I decided that removing the driveshaft and taking the reading off of the machines U-joint cap surface was the best bet.  With the driveshaft out of the way, I got 3.0 Degrees!  The pinion is pointing up past the transmission angle already by .02 just sitting still.  This would mean under power, I was probably at 5.0 Degrees while the transmission was still fixed at 2.8 Degrees.....  Yikes!  Stock upper control arm will not cut it.  I have to go back to the BMR adjustable, but this time had to order their $150.00 aftermarket bracket to avoid getting that clunking noise when going over bumps.  I just got the bracket in yesterday, and plan to do the install (again) this week.  Want to get the rear differential pointing down below the trans angle to either 0 Degrees to 0.2 degrees (that way under acceleration, with 2 degrees of upward movement, the trans and rear diff point directly at one another.   This seems like such a simple thing, but its had me going for a few months now.  LOL  What better way to learn!

Now to address the noise which started this whole journey.....  its not the twin disc at all. Its the ring and pinion howling at speed!  While I had the driveshaft out to take the angle measurement, I noticed quite a bit of play in the pinion yolk!  Not only do I knot believe there is supposed to be no play at all, but I think you need to show about 15 in lbs of preload to be able to turn it.  I could just take the yolk in my hand and turn it left to right about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch in both directions!  It had no play in and out or up and down, but rotationally, I was getting quite a bit.

Not really sure how this happened as the car probably only has a total of 200 miles on it in total (?) between my drives and the Carfix episode.  But either way, it appeared a rebuild was necessary.  Yesterday I ordered a set of US Gear lightning series (the ones that are pre-broken in and you do not have to go through the break in procedure), a rebuild kit, all the pinion depth tools, analog in/lb torque wrench, extra crush collars, etc.... and I will be taking this on as well!  I maintained my 3.89:1 gear ratio with the new gears (forgot to mention).  Let you all know how it goes.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on July 09, 2019, 08:30:08 AM
"Now to address the noise which started this whole journey.....  its not the twin disc at all. Its the ring and pinion howling at speed!  While I had the driveshaft out to take the angle measurement, I noticed quite a bit of play in the pinion yolk!  Not only do I knot believe there is supposed to be no play at all, but I think you need to show about 15 in lbs of preload to be able to turn it.  I could just take the yolk in my hand and turn it left to right about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch in both directions!  It had no play in and out or up and down, but rotationally, I was getting quite a bit."

Yikes, indeed. I'd venture that the pinion nut backed off (unlikely unless it was re-used and even then...) or the nut wasn't sufficiently tightened ( crush sleeve? or solid spacer?) in the first place. Once the carrier comes out, check the side bearings as well before it's torn down.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 09, 2019, 10:30:30 AM
Thanks Bob.  Will do.  Confused as I purchased this 3rd member as a completed unit NEW!  lol  Let you know what I find.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: My427stang on July 09, 2019, 02:03:31 PM
Always good to disassemble, but the side bearings will have positive stops on the adjusters.

I would just pull the pinion housing out, MUCH quicker, get the bearing preload right, and if the backlash looks normal after fixing that, run it, I bet it's fixed

Likely the lock nut was bad, or taken on and off, and just loosened up
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 09, 2019, 03:25:28 PM
Thanks Ross.  I may try that first, and then if its doesnt work, I will just pull the 3rd member and rebuild with all the new parts coming in.

Also, I just got done swapping out the BMR adjustable upper control arm and its corresponding bracket.  Its definately a pain in the  butt as it requires the saddle style fuel tank to be lowered to get the bracket out.

Anyway, all back together and this is what I have......  Trans angle is 2.8 degrees (pointing down from front to back).....  and now Rear differential is 0.8 degrees (pointing down from front to back).  I believe this will put me at a -2 degrees pinion angle.... thus putting the rear differential at 2.8 (front to back) with the 2 degrees of rotation under acceleration.

Getting there boys!  With all of these.... ahem.. experiences, the next project car should be a breeze!  HAHAHA
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on July 09, 2019, 03:57:26 PM
Always good to disassemble, but the side bearings will have positive stops on the adjusters.

I would just pull the pinion housing out, MUCH quicker, get the bearing preload right, and if the backlash looks normal after fixing that, run it, I bet it's fixed

Likely the lock nut was bad, or taken on and off, and just loosened up

Unless the seller didn't tighten down the adjuster bolts!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 10, 2019, 08:25:48 AM
Yea just from the noise when I turn the pinion yolk back and forth (1/2 to 3/4 inch play) , I get the feeling that the ring gear has moved away from the pinion..... and should be moved closer to get rid of excess ring gear backlash (I suspect)  :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on July 10, 2019, 03:11:10 PM
Yea just from the noise when I turn the pinion yolk back and forth (1/2 to 3/4 inch play) , I get the feeling that the ring gear has moved away from the pinion..... and should be moved closer to get rid of excess ring gear backlash (I suspect)  :)

Yeah, until its out, hard to speculate. Would be cool to find that that the gears are o.k. save an tightening of the side bearings!






Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Nightmist66 on July 10, 2019, 06:00:35 PM
Yea just from the noise when I turn the pinion yolk back and forth (1/2 to 3/4 inch play) , I get the feeling that the ring gear has moved away from the pinion..... and should be moved closer to get rid of excess ring gear backlash (I suspect)  :)


Only my opinion, but I suspect it would have to be side bearing related. The 9" has a rear support bearing and even if the pinion nut was loose, the rear support bearing should keep the pinion from cocking at an angle and increasing backlash. So, it should either have the same backlash it started with(bearings tight or pushed forward) or get tighter moving the pinion back into the ring gear if the nut is loose. I wonder if the locking tabs were installed on the side adjusters? I would plan on removing the whole 3rd member.....Can you wiggle the pinion yoke at all?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 11, 2019, 12:26:39 PM
Hey Jared,

Wiggle- No.  I can turn the pinion back and forth a good 1/2 to 3/4 " in either direction.  When I do this, I can hear the gear teeth touch at the end of the movement in each direction.  In my mind this would  translate to the backlash of the ring gear.  I think (from reading online) that the acceptable backlash on a ford 9" is .006" to .010"....... If I can turn the pinion clock wise and counter clockwise about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch...... that seems like it would translate to a HUGE backlash  LOL

Interested to get it out and take a look.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 12, 2019, 02:03:24 PM
Parts and tools should be coming today, but in reading through an old "SA" manual I have on building Ford 9" rear ends, I saw a little statement about "Crush sleeves".  It states that they are not recommended for high horsepower or racing applications.  Instead, they suggest the solid pinion spacer with shims to dial in the proper pre-load.

99% sure the rear differential I have is using a crush sleeve, so I also have a solid pinion spacer and shims on their way.   Want to use the solid one for the rebuild in case it was a "too high horsepower" issue that caused this  :)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 18, 2019, 07:59:29 AM
OK everything arrived (parts and tools) and yesterday I got started on the removal.  I did not want to pull the whole rear end, so I got to work pulling the 3rd member while still under the car.  As you could imagine, in a modern car, there is not much wasted space like in the older cars.  It took a good 3 to 4 hours, and took loosening quite a bit of "bits" in order to rotate the housing down enough for the "pumpkin" to clear and come out.

Just this morning, I got it mounted up on the engine stand in a 3rd member mounting fixture and took my first measurement.  The original ring gear has a backlash of 0.009"

Reading online, it appear that proper ring gear backlash for a for 9" is between 0.006" to 0.010".  So it appears this is ok?

With the 3rd member mounted in the stand, when I turn the pinion yolk back and forth, there is play and I get a metal on metal "clink" in both directions.  Its not smooth.  What else should I measure (and in what order) before I start pulling the thing apart or as I pull it apart?

Thanks all

Edit:  Wanted to make sure the gear set in the original 3rd member was ACTUALLY a 3.89:1, and it is confirmed.  Didn't think to count the teeth when I first started this project.

This 3rd member is still so new, that the original white gear pattern paint is still highly visible.  What I did notice is that the gear paint is pretty thick at the bottom of each gear (valley), but there is no paint at all at the top of each gear tooth (almost like the pinion needs to be moved closer to the ring gear).  I havent wrapped my mind around how the pinion could be too far away, but the ring backlash is perfectly within spec?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 19, 2019, 07:36:20 AM
OK, this morning I tried something out of curiousity.  I took a bit of the marking compound and put it on 3 of the teeth.  I put my hand on the ring gear at the top (simulating a little bit of resistence) and turned the pinion back and forth on the painted section.  When I rolled the ring gear back around to inspect..... Ah Haaa!  Both the drive side and the coast side are centered, but all the way at the bottom of the ring gear (Toe?).  They need to come up quite a bit to be centered on the ring gear teeth!  The charts on line say to increase backlash to make this happen.  Any suggestions where I should go from my current 0.009" backlash?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: BattlestarGalactic on July 19, 2019, 09:21:15 AM
A typical "new" set up should have just a slight click and very slight rotation of pinion.  If you have 1/2 or more turn then something is wrong.


(https://www.diyford.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/386.jpg)

Moving the pattern Toe and Heel takes changing the shims under the pinion support(sounds like you need MORE shim).  Then adjust backlash.

You initially set up the pinion depth, which should center your pattern on the ring gear.  If you don't have the tools or measurement, then you just have to watch the pattern with paint until it is where you want it.

(https://cpi.studiod.com/www_ehow_com/i.ehow.com/images/a02/1t/85/set-up-differential-1.5-800x800.jpg)


I just replaced the gears in my '69 F100.  With minimal tools, I reused my solid sleeve then checked rotation torque with inch/pound dial wrench I purchased some time back for working on my Harley.  It was within spec.  I reused my shim pack under pinion support and things lined up well.  I set backlash and applied marking paint.  I then used my drill with large socket to spin the pinion.  It had a nice pattern and very noticable smooth operation.  If something is wrong, you will see/feel the problem when using a drill to spin it.  It will buzz/vibrate if set up incorrectly.  That buzz will turn into a loud RING when driven on the road.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 19, 2019, 09:37:52 AM
I just waned to see what would happen if I adjusted the backlast (gave it a bit more backlash) as it states that it should move the pattern away from the bottom toward the top of the gear tooth.  Like I stated before, I was at 0.009" backlash from base.  I turned the adjusters on each side  loosening one, and then tightening the other.  Both were moved 1 hole on the adjuster.  Retorqued the caps, and set up the dial indicator.  I was at about 0.012" to 0.013" of backlash and yes, the pattern moved up a little toward the top of the ring gear tooth, but not enough.  I tried again with moving the adjusters a bit to give a little more backlash, this time around 0.015" and tried the pattern again.  Not really any change from the first move.

I am guessing that you can only adjust backlash out so much before it starts having a negative effect. 

What I also noticed is that although the pattern was moving in the correct direction (toward the top/ outside of the ring gear, it was still favoring the top side of each tooth (needs to move more toward the bottom of the V in the gear.

I am guessing that by lessening the shims on the pinion, it would move the pinion deeper into the housing and thus the pattern would be deeper into each tooth (toward the bottom V of the gear tooth.

What I cant check is what the pinion depth for the original/ Current ring and pinion setup should be (and thus make sure its not out of spec).  Is this just where you sort of try different things until you get the correct pattern?

Main questions:

1. From reading online and the books I have, it seems like the ring backlash should be between .006" all the way to .015" (these are the min and max from different sources).  I also read that for a used gear set, you should shoot for around .010" of backlash.  Are these correct?  What am I aiming for a used gear and likewise for a new gear?

2.  If both the backlash and the pinion depth can be adjusted, which is better to adjust?  Is it better to aim for a specific backlash and then adjust the pinion depth as needed (always going back to get the target backlash).  Or is the pinion depth "non negotiable" and the backlash needs to always be adjusted? (in this case since I do not know what the spec pinion depth should be as I purchased this as a complete 3rd member)

Thanks guys.  Its sucks bad having the whole rear of the car/ axles/ suspension/ sway bar/ end links just exploded all over the garage.  Really want to get this car back together as efficiently as possible  :0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 19, 2019, 09:41:05 AM
Thanks battlestar.  I was posting as you posted, so it seems from what you say, if you don't have the specs, then play with the shims until you get the correct pattern.

May I ask what are your thoughts on backlash?  What did you aim for/ end up with?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: BattlestarGalactic on July 19, 2019, 09:56:26 AM
I'm a rookie at this actually.  I've done a few, but no means an expert.   This was last summer, so don't recall specifics, but I know .007-.012 range is good.

As for backlash, tight is fine, but if you are fighting it, shoot for the middle and call it good.  Working those side rings can be challenging to get super accurate.  A little nudge goes a long way.  You are trying to set the side bearing preload while this is going on also.  I recall a buddy many years ago, setting the rings so that the ring gear had NO lash.  Then using one side, crank on the ring to increase backlash.  When you get your .010, the side bearing preload would be in range.  I've never checked, but never had bearing problems either.

Roll the ring gear against the pinion(put drag on the pinion) and feel the sensation.  Like I mention, any "buzz" to it will indicate something is not right and will cause a noise when driving.  If it rolls smooth, then it is good and will be quiet.  Running it with a drill worked really well for me.  Get an socket adapter for your drill, that is what I have.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: C8OZ on July 19, 2019, 09:58:05 AM
If I've read this correctly, you're getting backlash measurements from .009-.015", but that doesn't fit at all with the issue of 1/2 to 3/4 turn of free travel originally checked at the yoke.

A couple of things come to mind. Is it possible the "slack" you were feeling wasn't gear backlash at all, but movement of whatever locker unit you're using while one wheel/brake was dragging a bit? Hope that makes sense. Otherwise, if a pinion bearing has gone south or your crush sleeve is "overcrushed" it may be that the pinion has somewhat "fallen in" at the moment, and your backlash checks are giving a deceptive reading at one end of the pinion's new "range."

You're getting great advice. I just don't see where the big slack was coming from.

I think I'd make absolutely sure the pinion preload is real. Even a couple of taps with a brass hammer in each direction front to rear to confirm it hasn't migrated.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 19, 2019, 10:21:44 AM
I am not sure if I wrote it wrong, but the back and forth slack I get turning the pinion yolk is not 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn.  It was 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch  LOL  it makes a metal on metal "clink" when i turn it either way.  Sorry for any confusion.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: C8OZ on July 19, 2019, 10:27:39 AM
No, that was ME writing it wrong, sorry.  ;D
I meant inch, but the .009" you found just isn't enough for that range and a sound, especially before removing the oil.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 19, 2019, 12:50:35 PM
Here are pictures of the gear pattern right now.  Cant remember if I said it, but in 4th gear and above, holding speed, the thing Whistles/ howls so bad, you can not even hear the engine.  Let off the gas and it goes away completely.  So coast seems ok, but drive is wayyy off I am guessing

First photo is coast side

Second photo is drive side
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: BattlestarGalactic on July 19, 2019, 06:14:08 PM
Way too deep.  Need some shim under the pinion.

As you manually turn the pinion you will feel a vibration/buzz as the tooth walks off the ring gear.  Once you shim it out, you will notice that buzz not be there.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 19, 2019, 08:46:15 PM
Ok.  Took it all apart to start fresh.  This is what I found:

First of all, there was no "preload" on the carrier bearings!  I spun the ring gear with one hand and it kept on spinning for about 30 to 40 seconds before it stopped.  LOL. Strike 1.

I tightened up the carrier bearings to get a preload to where when I spin the ring gear with one hand, it keeps spinning freely for a second or 2 before the drag stops it.

Second, as "battle" said, I needed to add some shim(s) to get my pattern to move higher on the ring.  When I remove the daytona pinion housing, there was already 2 shims on it.  They were both 0.020" each for a total of 0.040" total.  This amount of shim was getting me the pattern I posted above with a ring gear backlash of 0.009".  I must have tried 5 or 6 combinations of additional shims ( some I even tried twice.  Where I ended up is an additional 0.017" shim for a total of 0.057" ( still able to maintain 0.009" backlash wiyh a bit of adjusting.  I would say that the pattern is directly in the center of the tooth possibly favoring a little high, but I can still see a little yellow paint line at the very top.  Tried 0.060 and 0.065", but did not move it any deeper that I could tell.  Coast side is still pretty low on the ring gear and favors the root/ root, but thats kind of where it was at ( maybe a little better) from the start and I had no howl when coasting.

Will try putting it back together tomorrow and maybe I can get away with returning my new ring and pinion set?  Wish me luch and thats for the input!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 22, 2019, 02:45:54 PM
Sadly it seems its not fixed (noise starts at a slower speed now).  I am going to take a few weeks break, and then pull the whole thing again and install my brand new ring and pinion by US Gear (Strange).  :0/
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: BattlestarGalactic on July 22, 2019, 02:56:01 PM
Sadly, if you run it with a bad setting long enough, it will ruin the gear set.  It doesn't take long.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 23, 2019, 11:53:04 AM
Yea no biggie.  Anyway, I was going to wait a bit, but it kind of bothers me  LOL.

I ran back out there today and pulled it all apart again.  I am going to set it up with the new gear, pinion and bearings (So I know its correct).

As a side note, I was thinking about what I found on the original inspection.  As I had said, there was originally 2 pinion shims when I pulled the pinion assembly the first time.  They were 2 separate 0.020" shims.  From what I read online, it seems like the "normal" shim size needed is between 0.015 and 0.023 roughly?  Mine had 0.040" from the get go.  Seems excessive as a starting point, no?  I am thinking that the person assembling it grabbed a 0.020 pinion shim, and there were 2 stuck together?  Maybe there should have only been 1 pinion shim of 0.020" to start?  Dunno.

Let you know (and I will take some photos as I assemble) how it goes this time around.

Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Drew Pojedinec on July 23, 2019, 12:28:21 PM
Don’t check gear mesh until you set case spread and bearing preload.
15in lb bearing drag is decent and .008 case spread.

With a solid spacer you often need to test fit more to get everything right. I keep old bearings around that I cut internally larger for test fitting purposes. Makes it easier to take apart.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 24, 2019, 03:07:02 PM
Hey Drew,

The case spread of 0.008.  I am guessing thats how you know you have to correct Carrier Bearing preload?  Its the only thing I cant find a tool for (most people seem to cut up an extra 31 spline axle and weld a nut on the end so they can check preload with a torque wrench.

is 0.008" the preload for a Ford 9"?
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Drew Pojedinec on July 24, 2019, 03:50:32 PM
That is your case spread. Very good, it preloads the carrier bearings. I set it with a dial indicator.

Pinion bearings also need preload. You check it with a solid spacer by tightening pinion nut and turning the whole rotation with a dial type type wrench. The resistance is how it is measured. Ignore the break away torque and focus on a nice long steady pull once everything is moving. Should require 15 in lb or torque to keep turning.
With a crush sleeve this isn’t too hard but you can get a false positive as it gets tight BEFORE the sleeve starts to crush.
With a solid spacer you need to have your shims set on the spacer first.
I keep spare old bearings around with the center honed so i can use it to test fit. Thus avoiding having to press it on and off.

Shame you can’t drive up to Georgia, I have all the tools and junk here to do this easily.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 24, 2019, 07:49:47 PM
Ok I got to that point.  I think I did it correctly and tightened the ring gear side adjuster to get. 0.008" case deflection.  Is it supposed to feel so still to turn?  I can spin it ( and its smooth) but stops spinning almost immediately.  What is proper carrier bearing preload supposed to feel like ( spinning the ring gear)?  Thanks again!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Drew Pojedinec on July 24, 2019, 09:26:41 PM
Fresh builds are tight.
Add oil and heat and it’ll be fine.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: machoneman on July 25, 2019, 12:17:21 AM
Funny, but I knew a guy who would paint the ring gear with highly abrasive valve lapping compound to 'save' some gear sets somebody else installed and messed up. Old Gene would 'drive' the gears a few minutes (car on blocks, tires off the ground!) with just a spray of rearend gear fluid, then clean off the compound with white gas (or whatever he had on hand), fill the rear up and drive it! Shade tree, old school, cheap and NOT recommended.... but it often worked for him!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 25, 2019, 11:30:23 AM
OK, got the pinion (daytona) support disassembled.  Findings..... 

1.Bearings are ok, but I will install new ones that came with the rebuild kit.

2. Races- also ok as there is barely 100 Miles on this car in total since installed..... I might keep the old bear races as they are in such great shape.

3. There was no crush sleeve.  This unit was originally built with a solid spacer (with no additional shims) to attain proper pre-load on the pinion.

I have a analog in lb torque wrench coming today.  This will allow me to test pre-load before installing and checking pinion depth.  Pinion depth is marked on the new pinion itself and is listed as 1.036"

I have a depth Micrometer to enable me to check and shim until I am 1.036" from Ring gear centerline.

Hopefully with this being a new ring and pinion, I will be able to see a proper pattern when its time to test.

:0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Drew Pojedinec on July 25, 2019, 12:15:35 PM
Always save your old bearings. Sometimes the inner shell of one is helpful to fully press another on.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 26, 2019, 12:43:47 PM
OK where I am at right now....

I got the pinion and housing all broken down.  Using the solid spacer and shims purchase, I went at getting 25 in lbs of preload on the pinion.

The old pinion pulled out had a solid spacer with no extra shims.  It measured 0.500" .  For Sh!ts and giggles, I reinstalled the original 0.500" spacer and gave that a try.  At 200 ft lbs or torque on the pinion nut. I had "0" in lbs of preload.  LOL

Then I disassembled and put in my new solid spacer that came with my rebuild kit (measuring 0.450") and have that a shot.  Since it was smaller, I decided to slowly torque to pinion nut and check the drag as I went.  With only 50 ft lbs of torque, it was not budging (turning).

OK....  somewhere between this 0.450 and 0.500" spacer is my ideal.  Then I tried 0.013 shim for a total of 0.463".....  no luck, 75 in lbs of torque to turn.  Then 0.018 shim for a total of 0.468.. nope.... to tight.  Then 0.480- Nope  ended up being like 0.492 or there about.......  after its all put back together with the pinion seal in place, I was getting 30 in lbs of preload (thats with the seal so about 25 to 25 without the seal.  Since the shims only came in 0.012, 0.013, 0.015, 0.018, 0.020...  I was just lucky I did not need minor  shims.  (somewhere I heard there are packs of 0.001 shims for fine tuning). 

In the end, Pinion is all set.  Will be checking pinion depth (maybe adding a shim) and then patterns!!!  I will post pictures of my patters before I reinstall.  Just to be sure I am getting the "perfect" pattern.....:0)
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 26, 2019, 08:34:27 PM
Alright.  Here is where we are.

I took my newly acquired tools and wanted to get an accurate pinion depth reading.  The pinion itself has the CD of 1.016" (pinion depth).  I used this method:

1st, I measured the OD of the carrier bearing race and marked that number down.
2nd, I divided that measurement in half and wrote it down.
3rd, using a depth micrometer, I measured from the parting line in the case (bearing caps) to the deepest part of the bearing journal (marking this measurement down.
4th... now, the measurement from the parting line to the deepest part of the bearing journal was 0.003" greater than the measurement of 1/2 the OD of the bearing race.  This means the parting line in the case is not actually the centerline.... its 0.003" higher.
5th, I took a measurement with the depth micrometer from the parting line closest to the pinion "tip" and marked this measurement down.  Since the parting cap is 0.003" higher than the actual center line, I subtracted the 0.003" from the pinion tip measurement and got the actual pinion depth from centerline.  Using a 0.015" shim, I was able to get the actual pinion depth to 0.017" (only 0.001" from the measurement marked on the actual pinion of 0.016")


With that completed, and after getting the pinion put together earlier today, I moved on to setting carrier bearing pre-load and backlash.  I got the pre-load set (without the pinion installed), then installed the pinion and set backlash.  I have backlash set at 0.009" to 0.010".

I torqued down the main caps, torqued down the pinion carrier bolts, and smeared on some marking compound and.........

First picture is the Drive side (seems too low for being almost exact on the manufacturers pinion depth)

Second picture is the Coast side, which seems almost perfect.

Not sure if this is acceptable because if I change pinion depth to raise drive side, I will be off of spec and it will also mess up the already perfect coast side.


The last photo is the correct pattern per US Gear (Strange).  It appears from their image that drive would be a little lower than coast, but not sure if my current pattern is ok.

Please let me know what your thoughts are!  I just stopped for the night until I consulted you all.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Drew Pojedinec on July 26, 2019, 08:58:54 PM
No expert on these. But as long as everything is to spec, sometimes getting them both *nearly* there is as good as it gets.

I have had this issue with using a case, gears, bearings etc all from different manufacturers. If it was me tho, I prefer to get the load side closer to ideal than the coast side.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: BattlestarGalactic on July 27, 2019, 02:40:02 PM
Use a drill and spin the pinion as you put drag on ring gear.  If it spins smooth, run t.  If you feel a noise then alter depth a touch and run it again.  If you feel any buzz, that means it will ring while driving and is likely out of place.  Not scientific, but worked well for me.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 27, 2019, 02:54:53 PM
OK guys.  Here it is.  I would ask for feed back, but there is nowhere to go from here as I went all the way up to a .040 shim and then went back to what looked the best.

I ended up back at 0.032 " shim which put the drive side and the coast side directly in the middle of the tooth.  I know it looks a little close to the tip of the tooth on the drive side, but adding shims all the way up to 0.040" did not make it go any deeper.

Here it is.  Spins smooth, backlash at 0.009" and everything torqued to spec.

First picture is Drive side

second photo is coast side

Thoughts????
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 29, 2019, 08:26:37 AM
Called Strange (US Gear) this morning just to touch base.  The last photos he said are way off (0.032" shims).  He said def do not run that pattern.

He took a look at my first photos (the one exactly to the CD of 1.016" pinion depth) and said its REALLY close.  He would consider adding a 0.005" shim and adjusting backlash again.  I explained that I had done so all the way up to a 0.040" shim (trying backlashes from 0.008" all the way to 0.015" (which is out of spec)......just to see what effect it would have.  Nothing looked as "solid" as the first photos (even though they looked a bit to low on the tooth on the drive side).

He said to take it for a drive, only a few miles and listen for any noise.  As the gear set does not need a break in (Lightning series gears are manufactured so they do not need break in), if its going to make noise, it will do it right away.  if it does, then add 0.005" shim, adjust backlash and try again.  He said they way it looks now (0.015" shim), is the way competitive racers set them up for a mechanical advantage (low on the gear tooth). 

Either way, running it at this point is the only way to test. 
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 30, 2019, 10:21:24 AM
Took the car out and was able to get all the way up through 6th Gear (not thrashing it, just slowly working my way up in speed)....  Whine/ howl is gone!  Awesome!  Thank you all for your help with this!!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: BattlestarGalactic on July 30, 2019, 11:31:45 AM
Good news!!
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: Drew Pojedinec on July 30, 2019, 12:09:49 PM
Awesome.

I wasn’t trying to brush you off with the “close enough is good enough” words.
It is true tho, use five different manufacturers parts and you get what ya get.
Title: Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
Post by: cobracammer on July 31, 2019, 12:36:17 PM
Thanks guys!  yea even Strange Tech people said its different for everyone based on your case and its machined surfaces.

Also, and I prob should have done this first ....  I wanted to make sure that my starrett depth micrometer was correct, and it turns out it was 0.003" off!  at 1 inch, it read 1.003".  So, when I measured from the parting line of the case to the lowest point in the bearing journal. and the measurement from the parting line to the pinion to get my pinion depth....... both were 0.003" off.

O well.  I have since calibrated the micrometer, and its dead nuts on the money (for the next time I use it!) .