Author Topic: Round 2 of 352 beating coming up.....  (Read 1936 times)

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blykins

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Re: Round 2 of 352 beating coming up.....
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2021, 12:40:36 PM »
When you put the ram on it, like to know what carbs and the jetting/etc.  I'd like to put the ram back on the door car, but having a bit of issue getting the carbs (pair 4160 / List 1850 ) set right.  That plus I need to get a small cap ignition for it.

Won't be using a tunnel ram.  Found a new Weber intake and I'll probably head that direction sometime down the road.
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
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WerbyFord

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Re: Round 2 of 352 beating coming up.....
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2021, 08:03:05 PM »
Ok with JUST the head porting, vs the prior Torq 405 and HP 433:

JDC Ported Heads:
Torq 423 at 4600 +18
Powr 475 at 6100 +42

I then had some fun.
Thinking of Ford's 44-page performance summary & plan from Aug 68 over on fordfe.com - I noted, in all that 44 pages, Ford's lack of EXHAUST PORTS is not even mentioned ONCE. Even today, the Rule of Thumb is, "heads will "support" a HP of twice their intake flow". I suppose a good exhaust/intake ratio is implicit, but all the emphasis is in intakes, as is obvious in the 44-pages of Ford stuff.

So I went in the Gonkulator, pretended to be JDC, and ported JUST the exhausts ,not the intakes:
Torq 411 at 4600  +6
Powr 460 at 6200 +27
OK, so you dont get the WHOLE gain, but much of it.

Then I turned back the clock and ported JUST the intakes, not the exhausts:
Torq 417 at 4500 +12
Powr 433 at 6000  +0
Porting the intakes ALONE did almost nothing compared to porting the Exhaust ALONE.

Of course porting both was better!
It doesnt matter so much today, because now we have SBF, FE, Cleveland, and Lima heads that actually have real exhaust ports.
But back then, a recognition that the exhaust has to get out would have changed a lot.


And now some FUN history. Detroit Dragway, the Dirty-D in the 3-1-3, is long gone.
Luckily I got to run there, only once IIRC, and only because Milan was closed so we drove all the way to Sibley at Dix.

From pg539 of the HAMB Junior Stock thread.
I guess 352's run ok after all.
352/250 of 64-65 was an underrated combo.

I have ONE trophy from DD that looks like the ones in the picture. At least i got to run at DD and roll around under the cars in the sharp gravel.
Why couldn't they have rounded the edges of the gravel, you know, for comfort?

Werb, it peaked at 6800 before.  You will never see peak hp rpm go down with extra head flow and the same camshaft.

Brent,
Not to worry!
The Gonk is peaking low on this one all the way around - the peak went up a tick vs the previous GONK so that's consistent, of course you'd expect that with a bigger anything feeding it, just as more cubes would lower the peak.

Those peaks can be tricky as many things about the exhaust in particular can have an influence. Of course the "G" isnt perfect either, just usually close.

My427stang

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Re: Round 2 of 352 beating coming up.....
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2021, 10:24:49 PM »
I say it’s got 500 in it....
---------------------------------
Ross

- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Joe-JDC

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Re: Round 2 of 352 beating coming up.....
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2021, 11:31:50 PM »
This will be a very good back to back type test.  Nothing would please me more than to see 500 hp for Brent.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

blykins

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Re: Round 2 of 352 beating coming up.....
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2021, 05:49:42 AM »
This will be a very good back to back type test.  Nothing would please me more than to see 500 hp for Brent.  Joe-JDC

If it don't, it don't, and I for sure won't point my finger at anybody.   

It was pushing 1.8 hp/cfm before.  If it did that this time, it would be sitting at 504 hp. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports

My427stang

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Re: Round 2 of 352 beating coming up.....
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2021, 09:14:36 AM »
Ok with JUST the head porting, vs the prior Torq 405 and HP 433:

JDC Ported Heads:
Torq 423 at 4600 +18
Powr 475 at 6100 +42

I then had some fun.
Thinking of Ford's 44-page performance summary & plan from Aug 68 over on fordfe.com - I noted, in all that 44 pages, Ford's lack of EXHAUST PORTS is not even mentioned ONCE. Even today, the Rule of Thumb is, "heads will "support" a HP of twice their intake flow". I suppose a good exhaust/intake ratio is implicit, but all the emphasis is in intakes, as is obvious in the 44-pages of Ford stuff.

So I went in the Gonkulator, pretended to be JDC, and ported JUST the exhausts ,not the intakes:
Torq 411 at 4600  +6
Powr 460 at 6200 +27
OK, so you dont get the WHOLE gain, but much of it.

Then I turned back the clock and ported JUST the intakes, not the exhausts:
Torq 417 at 4500 +12
Powr 433 at 6000  +0
Porting the intakes ALONE did almost nothing compared to porting the Exhaust ALONE.

Of course porting both was better!
It doesnt matter so much today, because now we have SBF, FE, Cleveland, and Lima heads that actually have real exhaust ports.
But back then, a recognition that the exhaust has to get out would have changed a lot.


And now some FUN history. Detroit Dragway, the Dirty-D in the 3-1-3, is long gone.
Luckily I got to run there, only once IIRC, and only because Milan was closed so we drove all the way to Sibley at Dix.

From pg539 of the HAMB Junior Stock thread.
I guess 352's run ok after all.
352/250 of 64-65 was an underrated combo.

I have ONE trophy from DD that looks like the ones in the picture. At least i got to run at DD and roll around under the cars in the sharp gravel.
Why couldn't they have rounded the edges of the gravel, you know, for comfort?

Werb, it peaked at 6800 before.  You will never see peak hp rpm go down with extra head flow and the same camshaft.

Brent,
Not to worry!
The Gonk is peaking low on this one all the way around - the peak went up a tick vs the previous GONK so that's consistent, of course you'd expect that with a bigger anything feeding it, just as more cubes would lower the peak.

Those peaks can be tricky as many things about the exhaust in particular can have an influence. Of course the "G" isnt perfect either, just usually close.

Werby, can you recreate the last on in terms of hp and rpm? A 700 rpm difference is significant and wondering if you back into the first round then add airflow, where does it end up?
---------------------------------
Ross

- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

WerbyFord

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Re: Round 2 of 352 beating coming up.....
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2021, 10:24:36 AM »
Ross et al:
I went back and Re-Gonkulated this thing – no way I can get the peak at 6800rpm without just “making stuff up” but I can now get:
Torq 432 at 4700 +28 from Gonk of prior dyno
Powr 490 at 6400 +57 from Gonk of prior dyno
I had guessed more advance before but Brent noted the ICL=105 on the old thread, so that’s only 1 degree advance, and the Gonkulator likes that better up high. Getting near 500hp now, within 2% which is well within the Gonkulator’s +/- range.

It is possible that a quick RPM gain on the dyno is making the peak higher by taking away a few ponies down low.
The YouTube movie, if it’s the dyno pull, is about 5 seconds to gain 2300rpm or about 460rpm/second. That may be enough to cost a few ponies during the pull, and “let go” of them on the top when the RPM’s stop going up, so the apparent peak is higher. Maybe! Again though, it’s not unheard of that the Gonkulator HP peak would be 400rpm low as that’s only about 6%. Good enough for pro bono work.

I’d try a couple different rev rate dyno pulls, eg 500rpm/second, then maybe 200rpm/second.

It’s also possible that the cam is “fatter” in the middle, I’m just working off the .050 duration. The .100 or .200 duration would help – Ford used to give the .100 duration on all their cams.
Either way, there’s a range – 472hp to 490hp, and I’d bet more on the 490hp with the right ICL=105 in there.

frnkeore

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Re: Round 2 of 352 beating coming up.....
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2021, 12:56:16 PM »
My program is low at 6250 too, with 472 HP.

I can input actual head flow and the CC lobe, if given. Here, since no lobe # was given, I had to pick from the .050 & ~lobe lift. Like Werby, I can get a few more HP and rpm, if I run the cam straight up but, loose average HP.

I can vary the headers by tuned rpm (7k in this case) but, can't input actual header dimensions.

I don't know if the Gonk can adjust for ring pack friction but, mine doesn't. I've heard it can be as much as 20 HP.
Frank