'58 Edsel 361 Build and into '54 Ford

[frnkeore]

As I said, I'm adding some info on the 361 pistons. The factory stated CR for this engine, is 10.5 as opposed to the high compression 352's 10.2.

I got one all cleaned up and they certainly look great, for 63 year old pistons but, the rings grooves are worn. The second groove is only .001, out of tolerance but, the top groove is about .004 out. The second, probably could get by but, the top will have to opened and a spacer put in to use them. The wrist pins and bores, are also good.

They weight about 882g and the compression height is 1.872. Most of the weight is in the very thick head, with no reliefs. After I get them all cleaned up, I'll measure the head thickness, weigh and check the CH on all of them.

[gdaddy01]

are you going to use the stock lock rings on the wrist pins or go with something different ? I have had these come loose , makes a nice groove in the block . 

[frnkeore]

are you going to use the stock lock rings on the wrist pins or go with something different ? I have had these come loose , makes a nice groove in the block .

Thanks for the tip. Something to think about. If I use them, I'm thinking of a rebored 352 with one of the late model Ford Hyd cams, of 200* @ .050.

In searching for info on this engine, last night, I found a very interesting, 1958 HR article on this very engine and the machined head dates, too.

Not much HP but, 8 weeks of dyno testing. It is where Isky developed their EE300 & 400 cam and they used Y-Block 1.5 rockers. I mapped the cam events.  For me, it took some innovation, to enlarge enough to read the HR pages.

http://www.ford-mel-engine.com/viewtopic.php?t=611

[frnkeore]

I worked on the oil system and here are the results.

The oil pump mount was originally just a 3/8 hole, with a 3/8 passage to the oil filter flange. You can see that in my first block pictures. I enlarged the mount area, to .500 with a 1/2" ball end mill, to match the gasket. Then I opened the passage to the filter to 7/16". Then took a flame shaped burr and blended them together.

For the main bearing passages, I picked up the oil hole (.375) in each main bearing shell, in each bearing saddle and used a 7/6 ball end mill to open the center to .390. I used a shell that had a perfectly centered hole but, some were off as much as .005, that's why I open the edge of the holes to .390. Then also blended them with the same burr.

[frnkeore]

Here is a little more info on these oil locations, everything is based on the center of the center main and located from the bearing tang. That is, with the center main, installed on the tang and the center of bearing, is the target location.

Center of front bearing, -10.210/ Center of oil feed hole, -10.360

Center of the #2 bearing, -4.630/ Center of feed hole, -4.770

Center of #3 bearing 0/ Center of feed hole, 0

Center of the #4 bearing, +4.630/ Center of feed hole, +4.770

Center of #5 bearing, +9.760/ Center of feed hole, +9.760

I also forgot to mention that the main feed, out of the oil filter housing, feeding the gallerys, is 7/16. Seems odd that the oil pump to oil filter was 3/8. I also open the front main feed hole, to 9/32, from 1/4, into that 7/16 feed but, not to the cam bearing.

[blykins]

Here is a little more info on these oil locations, everything is based on the center of the center main and located from the bearing tang. That is, with the center main, installed on the tang and the center of bearing, is the target location.

Center of front bearing, -10.210/ Center of oil feed hole, -10.360

Center of the #2 bearing, -4.630/ Center of feed hole, -4.770

Center of #3 bearing 0/ Center of feed hole, 0

Center of the #4 bearing, +4.630/ Center of feed hole, +4.770

Center of #5 bearing, +9.760/ Center of feed hole, +9.760

I also forgot to mention that the main feed, out of the oil filter housing, feeding the gallerys, is 7/16. Seems odd that the oil pump to oil filter was 3/8. I also open the front main feed hole, to 9/32, from 1/4, into that 7/16 feed but, not to the cam bearing.

You'd be surprised on how much oil a 1/4” hole will move:  way more than enough for a single main bearing. 

Everyone has their way, but I personally choose not to open any of these holes up as I see it as a way of weakening the main saddles.  I've seen factory blocks with cracks on every single main saddle, originating at the feed hole.  I'm sure that they probably saw a lot of abuse, but I also see that as a reason not to remove any material there. 

On a factory replacement bearing, such as a King/FM/Clevite full groove, the oil hole location is perfectly fine and doesn't need any movement/dressing.   Not touching the holes at all and using a coated full groove bearing will support BIG horsepower. 

On a race bearing, such as a Federal Mogul 125M, the bearing will practically cover the saddle hole, so doing *something* is warranted.  What I do is just lay over the hole slightly with a die grinder so that it matches up with the bearing hole, but I do so while trying to remove as little material as possible.   Remember, unless you're opening up the entire hole from the main saddle to the cam tunnel, opening the hole up at the saddle doesn't affect flow. 

[My427stang]

I do the same as Brent.  Not much to add after Brent on this one, but I did happen to find this on my computer.  Ford did address it

At your power level, I wouldn't lose sleep though.  Opening the oil holes won't be an issue if the block is good.  Did you have the mains magged?  Some blocks crack in the mains although I haven't seen it in the early 2-bolt blocks (although admittedly I have not checked a lot either).  Is it because of opening an oil hole or harmonics?  I tend to lean toward a balance issue, because #2 and #4 tend to beat that area up in some steady state industrial motors, but in the end, I consider it conservative to just slightly lay back hole, and only when I need to, and even then, it's just a light bevel

It's hard to see how much you took away, doesn't look like you were too aggressive, but not a common practice to open the mains

[blykins]

....but not a common practice to open the mains

I think in the 60's, they did goofy stuff like that.  I had a customer bring me a 427 S/O block to use for a build and the passages between the mains and cam had been opened up a good bit.   I told him I wouldn't use it. 

I also think that a lot of guys get caught up on "oil mods".   It's a good practice to open up and blend the oil pump flange hole because that hole is typically stupid-small.  It's also necessary to lightly blend in the saddle holes if the bearings cover them up. 

A lot of the "mods" are left-overs from the 60's when the rods stunk and the oil pans stunk.  Flimsy factory rods would go out of round with horsepower, spinning rod bearings, and then guys were left trying crazy stuff because they thought the oiling was the problem.   They got into the habits of aiming for 110 lbs of oil pressure, re-routing oil lines, roller cam bearings, etc.   Now we're making more horsepower with less "tricks". 

One single 1/4" hole will keep 8 hydraulic roller lifters pumped up, along with supplying sufficient oil to 8 pushrods and rocker arms.  It's not always necessary to make things bigger.

[My427stang]

....but not a common practice to open the mains

I think in the 60's, they did goofy stuff like that.  I had a customer bring me a 427 S/O block to use for a build and the passages between the mains and cam had been opened up a good bit.   I told him I wouldn't use it. 

I also think that a lot of guys get caught up on "oil mods".   It's a good practice to open up and blend the oil pump flange hole because that hole is typically stupid-small.  It's also necessary to lightly blend in the saddle holes if the bearings cover them up. 

A lot of the "mods" are left-overs from the 60's when the rods stunk and the oil pans stunk.  Flimsy factory rods would go out of round with horsepower, spinning rod bearings, and then guys were left trying crazy stuff because they thought the oiling was the problem.   They got into the habits of aiming for 110 lbs of oil pressure, re-routing oil lines, roller cam bearings, etc.   Now we're making more horsepower with less "tricks". 

One single 1/4" hole will keep 8 hydraulic roller lifters pumped up, along with supplying sufficient oil to 8 pushrods and rocker arms.  It's not always necessary to make things bigger.

Agree 100%

I'd even like to see a before/after volume test of the oil pump mount being blended on the pan rail.  Although I do it, a transition that occurs over .250 or so of depth as the oil slams into a 45-ish degree bend may do nothing at all.  It's not like an intake manifold that fuel can be sheared out of suspension from a sharp edge.  It may be a feel-good too, and it's not like the blocks are consistent enough to drill to pump size, or even close.

[blykins]

....but not a common practice to open the mains

I think in the 60's, they did goofy stuff like that.  I had a customer bring me a 427 S/O block to use for a build and the passages between the mains and cam had been opened up a good bit.   I told him I wouldn't use it. 

I also think that a lot of guys get caught up on "oil mods".   It's a good practice to open up and blend the oil pump flange hole because that hole is typically stupid-small.  It's also necessary to lightly blend in the saddle holes if the bearings cover them up. 

A lot of the "mods" are left-overs from the 60's when the rods stunk and the oil pans stunk.  Flimsy factory rods would go out of round with horsepower, spinning rod bearings, and then guys were left trying crazy stuff because they thought the oiling was the problem.   They got into the habits of aiming for 110 lbs of oil pressure, re-routing oil lines, roller cam bearings, etc.   Now we're making more horsepower with less "tricks". 

One single 1/4" hole will keep 8 hydraulic roller lifters pumped up, along with supplying sufficient oil to 8 pushrods and rocker arms.  It's not always necessary to make things bigger.

Agree 100%

I'd even like to see a before/after volume test of the oil pump mount being blended on the pan rail.  Although I do it, a transition that occurs over .250 or so of depth as the oil slams into a 45-ish degree bend may do nothing at all.  It's not like an intake manifold that fuel can be sheared out of suspension from a sharp edge.  It may be a feel-good too, and it's not like the blocks are consistent enough to drill to pump size, or even close.

I try to straighten it out a little bit, as much as I can.  I will drill from the outside of the block to the pump flange, then use a ball-end burr on a die grinder to shape and straighten it out from the flange side. 

It is a horrible transition as-is, it's almost a 90° turn and the drill point from where factory drilled the hole in the block makes for a mess to clean up. 

Spending a little time there is good, IMO, as if you can eliminate any bottleneck from the get-go, at least you have a good foundation for whatever is downstream.  There's a lot you can't get to, such as the U-turn bend from the diagonal going up from the oil filter adapter to where it comes back to the main oil gallery down the lifter valley, but I try to do what I can. 

[My427stang]

....but not a common practice to open the mains

I think in the 60's, they did goofy stuff like that.  I had a customer bring me a 427 S/O block to use for a build and the passages between the mains and cam had been opened up a good bit.   I told him I wouldn't use it. 

I also think that a lot of guys get caught up on "oil mods".   It's a good practice to open up and blend the oil pump flange hole because that hole is typically stupid-small.  It's also necessary to lightly blend in the saddle holes if the bearings cover them up. 

A lot of the "mods" are left-overs from the 60's when the rods stunk and the oil pans stunk.  Flimsy factory rods would go out of round with horsepower, spinning rod bearings, and then guys were left trying crazy stuff because they thought the oiling was the problem.   They got into the habits of aiming for 110 lbs of oil pressure, re-routing oil lines, roller cam bearings, etc.   Now we're making more horsepower with less "tricks". 

One single 1/4" hole will keep 8 hydraulic roller lifters pumped up, along with supplying sufficient oil to 8 pushrods and rocker arms.  It's not always necessary to make things bigger.

Agree 100%

I'd even like to see a before/after volume test of the oil pump mount being blended on the pan rail.  Although I do it, a transition that occurs over .250 or so of depth as the oil slams into a 45-ish degree bend may do nothing at all.  It's not like an intake manifold that fuel can be sheared out of suspension from a sharp edge.  It may be a feel-good too, and it's not like the blocks are consistent enough to drill to pump size, or even close.

I try to straighten it out a little bit, as much as I can.  I will drill from the outside of the block to the pump flange, then use a ball-end burr on a die grinder to shape and straighten it out from the flange side. 

It is a horrible transition as-is, it's almost a 90° turn and the drill point from where factory drilled the hole in the block makes for a mess to clean up. 

Spending a little time there is good, IMO, as if you can eliminate any bottleneck from the get-go, at least you have a good foundation for whatever is downstream.  There's a lot you can't get to, such as the U-turn bend from the diagonal going up from the oil filter adapter to where it comes back to the main oil gallery down the lifter valley, but I try to do what I can.

I agree and do it too, no reason not to, I mark the gasket, work from the back, then roll with a nice little ball.  However, I still wouldn't be surprised if it does nothing in terms of volume and/or pressure reduction downstream.  It makes plenty of tight turns beyond the pump and no matter what you do, it necks down. 

Preaching to the choir, but the behavior of hydraulic pressure is nothing like airflow.  That's why I mentioned a volume or pressure drop test, maybe it's worth its weight in gold, it maybe it does nothing. It's one of those tests that would be cool to see, but I haven't blown up a non-oil modded FE or a modded one, so not worth the mess to test IMHO.

I think you nailed it that all the windowed blocks out there have other explanations.  That being said, I won't stop either, LOL, but I think modifications to enhance return and oil pan baffling / volume are far closer to the weakest links

[frnkeore]

Whether or whether not, what I'm doing, needs to be done, is irreverent, as far as I'm concerned. I'm doing this to give a even, unimpeded path for the oil to get to the main and rod bearings. All the main holes, 2 - 5 are are factory sized at 5/16 and your telling me that enlarging the 1/4" front hole, 1/32, with it's much more substantial bulkhead, when compared to the center mains, will weaken the engine? Should I have left the oil pump hole 3/8 and not matched the oil pump and gasket? 

The real oil flow, choke point for the std FE block is, the cam bearing relief. I haven't actually measured it yet but, it appears to be ~1/4" wide and 1/8" deep, giving a 1/4" diameter, threw hole. I'll check that today.

I'm not telling anyone what to do, in this thread, I'm just showing what I am doing. If you (Brent & Ross) have any proof that enlarging the front feed hole 1/32" or what I'm doing with the saddles, will cause my, or any other engine, to blow up, please present it.

[blykins]

Whether or whether not, what I'm doing, needs to be done, is irreverent, as far as I'm concerned. I'm doing this to give a even, unimpeded path for the oil to get to the main and rod bearings. All the main holes, 2 - 5 are are factory sized at 5/16 and your telling me that enlarging the 1/4" front hole, 1/32, with it's much more substantial bulkhead, when compared to the center mains, will weaken the engine? Should I have left the oil pump hole 3/8 and not matched the oil pump and gasket? 

The real oil flow, choke point for the std FE block is, the cam bearing relief. I haven't actually measured it yet but, it appears to be ~1/4" wide and 1/8" deep, giving a 1/4" diameter, threw hole. I'll check that today.

I'm not telling anyone what to do, in this thread, I'm just showing what I am doing. If you (Brent & Ross) have any proof that enlarging the front feed hole 1/32" or what I'm doing with the saddles, will cause my, or any other engine, to blow up, please present it.

Frank, I'm saying that we all work off of experience.  My experience is that I don't open saddle holes up and there are no consequences to that.  My experience is also that I've seen cracks in all 5 mains of FE blocks originating from saddle holes.   That area seems to be a weak spot.  Obviously, making a 1/4" hole a 5/16" hole to match the others probably won't hurt anything, but going in and enlarging the other existing holes, while putting any kind of stress riser there could potentially cause a problem. 

I don't believe the cam bearing relief is of any consequence either.  Lots of high horsepower, high rpm 427 center oilers out there without having that passage enlarged.  A 1/4" diameter hole is a big hole and can easily feed one cam bearing (with it's own restricted orifice), one main bearing, and one rod bearing. 

FWIW, I wasn't giving you a hard time, but I don't want guys who have never put an FE together before scrounging the internet looking for tips and thinking, "If that is good, then a bigger hole is better." 

[My427stang]

Whether or whether not, what I'm doing, needs to be done, is irreverent, as far as I'm concerned. I'm doing this to give a even, unimpeded path for the oil to get to the main and rod bearings. All the main holes, 2 - 5 are are factory sized at 5/16 and your telling me that enlarging the 1/4" front hole, 1/32, with it's much more substantial bulkhead, when compared to the center mains, will weaken the engine? Should I have left the oil pump hole 3/8 and not matched the oil pump and gasket? 

The real oil flow, choke point for the std FE block is, the cam bearing relief. I haven't actually measured it yet but, it appears to be ~1/4" wide and 1/8" deep, giving a 1/4" diameter, threw hole. I'll check that today.

I'm not telling anyone what to do, in this thread, I'm just showing what I am doing. If you (Brent & Ross) have any proof that enlarging the front feed hole 1/32" or what I'm doing with the saddles, will cause my, or any other engine, to blow up, please present it.

Here is what I think...us bickering is ridiculous, but it always goes there.  I'll find you a reference, but I bet it has less credibility than the people who frequent this forum, 35+ years of FE for me, not to mention every other brand all the way up to big diesels, and I am a baby to some of the others.   

I can only speak for me, but I also wasn't giving you a hard time, and I thought I provided experience and interesting documentation which I also thought you'd enjoy. On top of that, I purposely chose words carefully to not make it sound like I think you damaged anything. 

I am with Brent though, too many cracked mains on cores to not say something for everyone else, you didn't request or pay for the input, but I would say the collective experience of this forum in general, is to not open the feeds more than the minimum required.

[RJP]

All good info here. In the past I have opened up all the oil passages on std. FE blocks only to learn that this weakens them at a vulnerable section of the block. I don't anymore. I only do as Brent has stated a minimal "touch up" at the bearing saddle with minimum material removed. In the past I also have taken queues from the FT truck oiling systems that use the breadbox 11-12 qt. pans, higher volume pumps, solid lower main bearings inserts, aligned bearing saddle holes and have larger passages to supply a larger volume of oil to the crank to aid in cooling the steel FT crank, rods & bearings. These are the 330" 359" 391" medium and heavy duty gas engines that are designed to run at a governed 42-4400 rpms at WOT for hours on end using the cheapest gas available. The system must work pretty good as these engines usually last for 250-300K miles between rebuilds....Oh, yeah, the 10lb 4 ring pistons don't hurt long life much either.