'58 Edsel 361 Build and into '54 Ford

[blykins]

All good info here. In the past I have opened up all the oil passages on std. FE blocks only to learn that this weakens them at a vulnerable section of the block. I don't anymore. I only do as Brent has stated a minimal "touch up" at the bearing saddle with minimum material removed. In the past I also have taken queues from the FT truck oiling systems that use the breadbox 11-12 qt. pans, higher volume pumps, solid lower main bearings inserts, aligned bearing saddle holes and have larger passages to supply a larger volume of oil to the crank to aid in cooling the steel FT crank, rods & bearings. These are the 330" 359" 391" medium and heavy duty gas engines that are designed to run at a governed 42-4400 rpms at WOT for hours on end using the cheapest gas available. The system must work pretty good as these engines usually last for 250-300K miles between rebuilds....Oh, yeah, the 10lb 4 ring pistons don't hurt long life much either.

I've got a buddy that does carb work for me and his dad used to run Super Stock with a 428.   He told me that the blocks used to split right down between the cam tunnel and the mains, right through that main saddle feed hole.  To do a quick fix, they would press a piece of tubing inside the hole to keep it from bleeding out.

[Rory428]

I also used to flare out the main oil feed holes to align properly with the main bearings. Did that for years,..until one of my 428s from my Fairmont lost oil pressure. Pulled the engine, and was checking everything, thats when I noticed #2 & #4 main bearing bulkheads were cracked between the cam bores and main bores, the crack lining up exactly where I had "fixed" the misalignment "problem". But although the cracks were obviously not a good thing, but the main cause of the low oil pressure was that the crack relaxed the pres fit of #2 cam bearing, allowing it to walk up enough to uncover the annual groove normally covered by the cam bearing shell, causing a major internal leak, thus the low pressure. pressing a tube into the oil feed hole would not address that problem. I can`t guarantee that removing any material from the oil hole(s) WILL cause the block to crack there, but after that incident, I stopped opening them up, and also never had another bulkhead crack. And by the way, the bearings still always looked great, even with the "mis-match".)

[frnkeore]

I got my 58 Edsel Service Manual, yesterday and it has a few interesting things in it but, first the oil transfer area, around the cam bearings.

I only measured two, the center main and the rear main. They are pretty easy to measure, using a inside mic. Mine is a Starrett, I mention that, only because with it, the thimble measuring projection, is long enough to go into the groove w/o touching the bearing bore. Others may be shorter so, check that if, you decide to measure one. It's easy to do, you just set the mic at under 2.5 and slip the small end, into the oil hole and turn it, into the groove. Mine measure 2.503 for the center and 2.480 for the rear. The width of the groove is .235, leaving a transfer area smaller than 1/4" diameter, with the cam bleeding off, some of that oil. If later blocks, have wider grooves, I'd like to hear how wide they are.

So, what I've done probably isn't needed but, I don't think it's hurt anything, either. Cracks propagate at sharp edges, that is why all aircraft and aerospace parts have radii on all transition surfaces. I'm not sure of the HP level of this engine but, it shouldn't be over 420 @ 5500 and I doubt that it will ever see 6k.   

Interesting info, regarding the compression ratio and the cam timing, show that these early 10+ to 1 engines, really needed the higher octane gas, of those days. The dynamic CR was somewhere between 8.25 and 8.67. If this engine really was 10.5, it would be that 8.67 but, as near as I can figure, the chamber didn't include the 1.58cc, above the top ring. That drops it to 10.31 and 8.52 Dyn. The top ring is low on this piston, @ .400. I had to fiddle with the head gasket thickness, to even get that (.0175x4.25), a .030 gasket, takes it down to 9.98/8.25 still in the premium gas range, for a heavy load. By comparison, the 10.2 CR, 352, would be less than 9.77/8.08. It has .014 deck clearance, as opposed to the 361's .008 but, I don't know how high the ring is on it.

Another reason I wanted the service manual, was to see what the actual bore is. In many sources, especially Ford advertising, it was said to be 4 3/64 (4.0469) and 4.050, in others. It turns out that it is 4.050 and can be as large as 4.0524.

I have a few manuals, from the '58 ford, to the '75 FT. Most of the info, is consistent, as far as tolerance goes but, on all the Ford FE, block and head surfaces, for flatness, it's .003, in 6", .006 max. The 361 Edsel, lists it as .002 per 6", .004 max.

Even though I doubt that the block casting is different than the 352, they list the max bore at .060. Regarding the block, I measure the clearance between the cylinders, a 1/4 allen wrench (.247) will stick in the area near the top of the core plug hole but, is loose at the bottom. I'm also curious, regarding the casting number, being -C, in early, Sept of '57.

One glaring omission in the manual, is that it only lists the 3 speed manual and OD trans and NOTHING about the push button shifter or auto trans (Teletouch).

[blykins]

Happy Holidays, Frank.

[frnkeore]

Thank you, Brent and the same to you.

[frnkeore]

I just got my rods back, from getting new wrist pin bushings and my machinist says that I got his last set of bushings and that they are getting hard to come by.

Is this getting to be the case?

[frnkeore]

Continuing on with my efforts to weaken the block, while getting as much oil, as possible to the mains and what ever else, runs off of the center oil galley:

The galley is 3/8 behind the 7/16 plug so, I'm using a 12" long 7/16 drill (from both ends) and a 5/8 x 18, threaded drill bushing, held by a plate, made from some 4130 scrap.  The arms are made of 3/8 x 3/4 CRS, slotted 7/16 for the bell housing end and also used for the front 3/8 & 5/16 bolts.  The ends of the plate, are .375 thick and taped 5/16 x 18, for flat head bolts. I made spacers out of the same .375 thick CRS, to hold everything tight and aligned with the hole. The threaded drill bushing is reamed .438 and I use a drill blank, as seen, to align the drill bushing, with the galley, then carefully tighten it in place, so that it is still, a nice slip fit, when fully tight. It's very ridged when finished.

The reason for the 5/8 x 18 thread, is that when making the hole undersize the minor diameter, is the same size as the 1/4 NPT, taps shank (I actually reamed the hole .564, before tapping). The actual spec for the thread hole is, 37/64 and that would work to guild the tap, ok but, I wanted it a closer fit.

The actual drilling, went pretty easy, using a 1/2 drill motor @ low speed and clearing the chips often.

The diagonal hole comes next. I will use this same drill bushing, modified to press in the 9/16 hole and aligned in a similar manor, before drilling.

[frnkeore]

The oil system is finished, with this last 7/16 enlarged hole.

It took a few hours to make this drill jig up but, I didn't feel comfortable, just doing it by hand.

I placed a piece of 3/8 ground shafting, in the hole and then made a 3/8 bushing for my drill jig. Adjusted it, until I got a slip fit on the shaft. then put the 7/16 bushing back in and drilled it.

[BigBlueIron]

That is quite the fixture!

I usually take a long 3/8" drill from both sides just to clean up the casting transition in the center of the block and call it good. Sometimes they have quite the offset there. 

[frnkeore]

My work on the block is done and it's off to get bored and line honed.

I did the valley stand offs a little different. I used 2" long 1/2" pipe nipples and turned the threads of, one end. There a little lighter than the others that I've seen, at 16 grams. They're installed with a 1/2", internal pipe wrench, as shown.

I also did the cam plate bolts different, to fit the cam plate a little closer. They started as 7/16 FH I turned the head to .69, then turned the area that fits the holes, to .46. The plate hole is .47. The remaining area left to thread, in front of the expansion plug isn't much, only about 7/16. I tapped it with a bottom tap and then made a special tap, to get one more thread out of it.

The relief in the threads, is .12 wide and just to the bottom of the threads. Made with a 1/16R tool. The cross hole is also .12 and the hole in the end of the bolt, is the same.

[frnkeore]

Block still isn't back but, I've been working on the heads.

The fixture I'm using locates the heads on the 2 end exhaust valve guilds. I did this on my SBF, too. It's the same fixture with just a different spacing.

The early FE's, have holes in both ends, just like the SBF and they are accurately located like the SBF. The expansion plug hole, sets the height of the heads (Z axis) and the valve guild pins set the X & Y axis. Both angle plates, have a 1 1/4" spud, to fit the expansion plug holes and are set on my surface plate, to the same height. The springs you see at the bottom, are for counter weight to make it easier to get it set up and on and off. The SBF's are much lighter so, i didn't need them on it.

The intake valves are std 2.09 x 3/8 stems, with 30°. The first cut, is 15°, then the 30° seat, followed by 45° & 60°. I'm making a 80° cutter, to finish the throat, down to the guild. The exhausts are 1.656 x 3/8 x 45° and I have a 1.453, ball endmill, coming to cut the Stellite seats for those.

You'll note that the machined chambers, have sharp edges, all round, I deburred them and the spark plug, break threw area, has 2-3 little glow plug type extensions, that I removed, too.

Although I don't need it, I'm going to make a one piece rocker stand, oiled by the 2 rear, pipe fitting, at the end of the main oil gallery, with caps to hold the shaft. I have a .840, ball endmill on order.

[frnkeore]

There has been a little set back on the block. It was a std bore and I bought .040 over pistons for it but, on Monday, I got a call and my machinist, told me one bore, wouldn't clean up all the way, because of the rust, in one cylinder, near the upper part of the bore.

I went down and looked at it and sure enough, it looked "ify". So, he said he could offset the bar .005, in the direction of the rust and rebore to .060. I went down and looked at the cylinder, bored to 4.106 and it looks good. Now he will bore all of them but, he has to wait for me to get a new set to hone it.

[blykins]

Now he will bore all of them but, he has to wait for me to get a new set to hone it.

Frank,

If your intent is to use an older set of pistons, then that's probably true because older NOS pistons will vary up to a thou on the diameter.  However, if your intent is to use a modern piston with a modern ring, then he can go ahead and hone away, because newer pistons will only vary by a couple of tenths at the very most. 

FWIW, if you're ever put into that spot again, sleeve the bad hole.  That way you keep a thicker cylinder wall and you can use the pistons that you already have.  I don't like taking 390 blocks out to .060" without a very thorough sonic check. 

[Gregwill16]

+1 ^ No way I would take any FE out an extra .020 on the bore due to a couple cylinders, much less just one cylinder.

[frnkeore]

One of the very first question that I asked, when I came onto this forum, about two years ago was "When did Ford change to a thin wall casting", the response was, "that it was always a thin wall casting". I knew that wasn't true, as Fords first thin wall was the 144/170 Falcon engine, in 1960, then the SBF, in 62. I'm still not sure of the switch over but, it was earlier than I had thought. I think it was sometime between 60 and 63. I was thinking more like 65/66 time frame.

Ted Wells had said that he like to use the earlier blocks, because they were thicker but didn't offer a time frame. My block was cast in Sept of '57 and is now bored .060 over (4.110) and the following reading are taken with a Utrasonic Thickness Gauge UM6500. It had heavy rust in the out board side of #5 and my machinist, suggested offset the boring bar, .005 to clean it up, going from his, already .040 over bore. It worked and there is still lot of metal, in that bore, too.

The readings are as viewed from the top of the block and are at 1.5" and 3.5" from the deck (not 4" as I wrote on the paper), as this will have a 428 crank. I'm lazy so, I only took two depth readings. I verified the readings on the China walls, at the thinnest spots where it's counter bored for the dist and plug, at the end of the gallery, both before I started and after I finished, all readings were within .005 of each other.