Author Topic: SBF Dry Sump  (Read 491 times)

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frnkeore

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SBF Dry Sump
« on: August 01, 2020, 12:46:28 PM »
I mentioned in the H&M head thread, that I had a H&M dry sump, with Randy's help, I was able to get to a a guy, named Jay Cushman, that collects, the extremely rare and high end Ford parts. He bought out all of Dan Gurney's Ford engine stock, as well as a lot of Shelby's. He has or has had, most everything that you've ever heard of, that was experimental or used in a Ford, race program.

He has identified my dry sump, as one that was funded by Ford and could have been contracted out by H&M, Shelby or Gurney. I was told that it came from H&M but, they sold a lot of parts and could have got it from one of the other two sources. That info, come from the fact, that it has a ASK prefix, to it's part number.

I'm a areospace machinist of more than 45 years and the quality is top notch for the time that it was made (65-68 era). It's a gear pump but, uses much larger gears than a SBC or BBC, as most used at that time, such as Weaver. As you can see it bolts to the original oil pump location and is entirely, self contained, with just one hose in and one out, using non AN, bulkhead fittings.

I can't use it on my current 306, because I'm using a girdle on it

Added:
As you can see, there are yellow marks, they are paint and look like a stencil made them. I can't quite make out the shape but, they are rectangular. I think they are acceptance marks, that would be applied after inspection.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 01:20:47 PM by frnkeore »
Frank

cammerfe

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Re: SBF Dry Sump
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2020, 10:48:29 PM »
Many years  ago, I got a Ford dry sump for a 494 Can-Am motor from Jack Roush. It was a close copy of the ones FoMoCo guys constructed for the 427 LeMans cars. The pressure pump was of a design much like the production pumps and fit into the stock location, although being of a somewhat larger gearoter design. The scavenge section was all gears and fit into a dedicated section in the front of the cast sump. Being quite shallow, it made possible a lower location in the chassis.

I put it into my 466 SCJ Pinto. When the car was stolen, the dry-sump was gone also.

KS

frnkeore

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Re: SBF Dry Sump
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2020, 12:39:04 AM »
Do you remember if it had a ASK number on it.

Besides being funded by Ford, the ASK means that it was also engineered by Ford, to be manufactured by a outside source.
Frank

blykins

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Re: SBF Dry Sump
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2020, 05:30:32 AM »
I think the dry sump system would be more benefit to you than the main girdle, especially on a short stroke engine.  I'm not a fan of main girdles, I don't think they help anything, unless they're made out of aluminum and can somehow absorb harmonics.   I do a lot of higher hp, stock block 289/302/331/347 engines and opt to not run a girdle on most.   If the block is gonna split in half, a girdle won't stop it. 

If that dry sump system would pull vacuum, I think it would be more help than the girdle.  With only one pickup, it may be marginable at best though, as most true dry sump systems will scavenge from at least 2-3 different spots, rather than just one fixed point that may/may not be in the level of oil that's collecting. 
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 05:40:39 AM by blykins »
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Joe-JDC

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Re: SBF Dry Sump
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2020, 09:04:57 AM »
I have to disagree on the aluminum girdles.  They expand at a different rate than iron or steel, and it has been attributed to the HO blocks that split down the middle when they reached a certain horsepower level.  No one tells about that side of the blocks splitting.  Just my experience from local racers.  Don't use an aluminum girdle.  Joe-JDC
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blykins

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Re: SBF Dry Sump
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2020, 09:25:17 AM »
I have to disagree on the aluminum girdles.  They expand at a different rate than iron or steel, and it has been attributed to the HO blocks that split down the middle when they reached a certain horsepower level.  No one tells about that side of the blocks splitting.  Just my experience from local racers.  Don't use an aluminum girdle.  Joe-JDC

I don't like girdles period, but a local guy runs one of my 347's with a DSS aluminum girdle.  He wanted to use it, not my choice, but it's been on a 550 hp 1985 5.0 block for the past 10 years.  Runs 10.90's.   Launches at 5500, shifts at 7000. 

The aluminum stuff has been known to absorb harmonics.  Lots of big block Mopar guys will only run aluminum main caps for that reason. 

If I had my way, all main cap girdles would go away, but this particular one has lived just fine for the past decade.   I think it varies from block to block on when they will split, doesn't matter what's holding the caps together.   Older blocks have a lot better chance of making horsepower without one....early 289/302/Mexican 302 blocks were the stoutest, especially the ones with wider caps.  You can tell the newer blocks are just thinner and wimpier.
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Joe-JDC

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Re: SBF Dry Sump
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2020, 10:58:04 AM »
He is at the threshold of the weakness of the HO block.  Like I mentioned in another post, we raced a stock HO shortblock with ported E-7 heads, ported stock EFI intake and plenum for years and ran 10.75 @ 141 with 8 psi boost in 91 LX Coupe with 5 speed.  Had a chip that allowed the engine to turn 7200 rpm with that stock shortblock.  Just ran the lifters down to within a few thousandths of collapse, and let it rip.  MY '88 GT with the 376W with 14 psi ran 9.72 @ 143 with full accessories, AC, PS, completely stock interior, etc.   When folks started putting the aluminum girdle on them, they started splitting the blocks at that power level.  The aluminum actually expanded the main studs, not stabilize them.  JME, Joe-JDC 
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Rory428

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Re: SBF Dry Sump
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2020, 11:25:30 AM »
I have to disagree on the aluminum girdles.  They expand at a different rate than iron or steel, and it has been attributed to the HO blocks that split down the middle when they reached a certain horsepower level.  No one tells about that side of the blocks splitting.  Just my experience from local racers.  Don't use an aluminum girdle.  Joe-JD

I don't like girdles period, but a local guy runs one of my 347's with a DSS aluminum girdle.  He wanted to use it, not my choice, but it's been on a 550 hp 1985 5.0 block for the past 10 years.  Runs 10.90's.   Launches at 5500, shifts at 7000. 

The aluminum stuff has been known to absorb harmonics.  Lots of big block Mopar guys will only run aluminum main caps for that reason. 

If I had my way, all main cap girdles would go away, but this particular one has lived just fine for the past decade.   I think it varies from block to block on when they will split, doesn't matter what's holding the caps together.   Older blocks have a lot better chance of making horsepower without one....early 289/302/Mexican 302 blocks were the stoutest, especially the ones with wider caps.  You can tell the newer blocks are just thinner and wimpier.
Brent, what type of car is this 550 HP 347 in? It would seem to me, unless its a 4000 pound car, or the driver/car setup etc is way out of whack, a 3000-3200 car with 550 HP should run a lot quicker that 10.90s in the 1/4 mile. Or at least the potential is there
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. a;; stock 332 2 barrel2 speed FordOMatic

blykins

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Re: SBF Dry Sump
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2020, 12:20:45 PM »
I have to disagree on the aluminum girdles.  They expand at a different rate than iron or steel, and it has been attributed to the HO blocks that split down the middle when they reached a certain horsepower level.  No one tells about that side of the blocks splitting.  Just my experience from local racers.  Don't use an aluminum girdle.  Joe-JD

I don't like girdles period, but a local guy runs one of my 347's with a DSS aluminum girdle.  He wanted to use it, not my choice, but it's been on a 550 hp 1985 5.0 block for the past 10 years.  Runs 10.90's.   Launches at 5500, shifts at 7000. 

The aluminum stuff has been known to absorb harmonics.  Lots of big block Mopar guys will only run aluminum main caps for that reason. 

If I had my way, all main cap girdles would go away, but this particular one has lived just fine for the past decade.   I think it varies from block to block on when they will split, doesn't matter what's holding the caps together.   Older blocks have a lot better chance of making horsepower without one....early 289/302/Mexican 302 blocks were the stoutest, especially the ones with wider caps.  You can tell the newer blocks are just thinner and wimpier.
Brent, what type of car is this 550 HP 347 in? It would seem to me, unless its a 4000 pound car, or the driver/car setup etc is way out of whack, a 3000-3200 car with 550 HP should run a lot quicker that 10.90s in the 1/4 mile. Or at least the potential is there

Rory, he normally runs the 7.50 1/8th mile index here.  The car has ran a 6.80 playing around.  I threw a rough 1/8 mile to 1/4 mile conversion in there since most guys aren't familiar with 1/8 mile times.  Now that I look at it closer, a 6.80 in the 1/8 converts to around 10.60's, so you were correct.

It's a Fox Mustang, 4.56 gear, with a TKO 500.   He runs one of the adjustable carb spacers  (sorta like a restrictor plate) and has it choked down to the smallest orifices that you can buy for it to run his class.

Joe, he's the only one of my guys running a main cap girdle but that engine has ran like clockwork for the last 10 years.  I freshened it up once when he lost a power valve and ran it like that for a while.  No fretting on the caps or any issues. 

Brent Lykins
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frnkeore

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Re: SBF Dry Sump
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2020, 12:29:05 PM »
My girdle is a little different. I made stand offs out 2.375, from the main CL and pre-load .005 at each of those stand off.
Frank

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Re: SBF Dry Sump
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2020, 12:41:25 PM »
My girdle is a little different. I made stand offs out 2.375, from the main CL and pre-load .005 at each of those stand off.

That's an awfully thin part of the main webbing to be adding extra holes and are those extra holes in the tops of the main caps too???   I think I'd still rather have that dry sump setup.  If it actually made any vacuum, you'd be better off with that.  If a block is going to split, there aren't any girdles that will keep it from happening.  I'll try to find it, but there's a picture on the web somewhere of a 302/5.0 block that's split in half, but the girdle and main caps are together. 

Maybe with your machining prowess, you'd be better inclined to making some nice enclosed cam tunnel sections instead.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 12:43:54 PM by blykins »
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frnkeore

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Re: SBF Dry Sump
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2020, 12:46:18 PM »
I've seen many pictures of split 302's. Some of the later ones have split in half but, most crack at the first or second main at the bolt holes. This block is a cherry C8 I found last year.

My idea in this, is to spread the loads, as much as possible and that will reduce the harmonics, also.

Also, I have a external dry sump pump, of my own manufacture and it was designed around the H&M pump. I can add that later.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 12:53:09 PM by frnkeore »
Frank

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Re: SBF Dry Sump
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2020, 12:50:58 PM »
I've seen many pictures of split 302's. Some of the later ones have split in half but, most crack at the first or second main at the bolt holes. This block is a cherry C8 I found last year.

The C8 blocks are pretty stinkin thick as is.  When I build road race engines where an aftermarket block isn't allowed, I usually try to find something similar. 

I'm not trying to pick on you, Frank, but I really think you should have left it alone.   I don't think drilling holes in the mains and drilling holes in the caps helped you much. 

When the blocks split, they split longitudinally.  The literally split in half, long-ways.  It all starts with a crack and a dip in oil pressure. 
Brent Lykins
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frnkeore

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Re: SBF Dry Sump
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2020, 12:55:07 PM »
I can always count on you Brent
Frank

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Re: SBF Dry Sump
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2020, 01:11:21 PM »
I can always count on you Brent

I honestly wasn’t trying to give you a hard time.  But it’s easier to take a second thought or think about the design before the engine is assembled and ready to start.
Brent Lykins
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