SBF Dry Sump

[frnkeore]

Again, that is your opinion and you have never tried anything like this, correct?

As I said, my idea is to spread the main bearing loads, as much as I could. All the force in down and in the direction of the rotation AT the main cap bolts. This reinforcement, spreads those loads, out away from the main bolts and adds support, to the main caps, with that .005 preload.

It's basically the same way a honey comb, aluminum structure adds strength to the aluminum.

Regardless of whether it's a early or weaker, late block. This structure, spreads the loads in center of  crankshaft/ block area.

It certainly adds strength to the #2 main bolts, where many of the cracks occur, in these early blocks.

[blykins]

Again, that is your opinion and you have never tried anything like this, correct?

As I said, my idea is to spread the main bearing loads, as much as I could. All the force in down and in the direction of the rotation AT the main cap bolts. This reinforcement, spreads those loads, out away from the main bolts and adds support, to the main caps, with that .005 preload.

It's basically the same way a honey comb, aluminum structure adds strength to the aluminum.

Regardless of whether it's a early or weaker, late block. This structure, spreads the loads in center of  crankshaft/ block area.

It certainly adds strength to the #2 main bolts, where many of the cracks occur, in these early blocks.

Frank, it's indeed my opinion, because I can honestly say I've never tried anything like that.   With the exception of one engine, I don't use girdles because I've seen too many pictures on the internet of blocks split in two, girdle or not.  It's also your opinion, since you have never tried anything like this either, so we're just tossing around thoughts. 

I'll take my engine builder hat off for a second and put my mechanical engineer hat on and say that my concern is that not only have you weakened the block with the extra holes (see pic below), but you have weakened the caps with the extra holes.   A .005" preload on the outside portion of the block may also cause a moment arm over the main cap itself and actually work against the fasteners holding the main caps on. 

BTW, this is how the older blocks usually fail, longitudinally down the middle, and through the main webbing supports, which you have drilled holes through.  The one picture is a D4 block, which isn't C8 quality, but a whole lot stouter than a late model 5.0 block.

[frnkeore]

It's obvious that, that is a 3.4 stroker and if that is #1 or #2 main, that crack STARTED at the bottom of the  main bolt holes. The preload, adds vertical pressure, evenly, only to the cap, itself and does not effect the main studs.

I posted this mod on ST and with that, I talked on the phone, for about 2 hrs, with a actual, mechanical engineer. He agreed that it was a structural, strength improvement.  We agreed that it would be even stronger, if the pan rails could have been incorporated but, the girdle isn't wide enough for that. He has done a lot of research on these 289/302/5.0 blocks. Can you tell us where your mechanical engineering degree was issued?

I got this ideal after buying the girdle and putting it in place, then seeing that I could add this arrangement so, I did, just that.

It could be improved by furnace brazing the standoffs to the webs but, in my case, it's way to late for that. It took me over 6 mo, to get it out of the machine shop, as it is.

[blykins]

It's obvious that, that is a 3.4 stroker and if that is #1 or #2 main, that crack STARTED at the bottom of the  main bolt holes. The preload, adds vertical pressure, evenly, only to the cap, itself and does not effect the main studs.

I posted this mod on ST and with that, I talked on the phone, for about 2 hrs, with a actual, mechanical engineer. He agreed that it was a structural, strength improvement.  We agreed that it would be even stronger, if the pan rails could have been incorporated but, the girdle isn't wide enough for that. He has done a lot of research on these 289/302/5.0 blocks. Can you tell us where your mechanical engineering degree was issued?

I got this ideal after buying the girdle and putting it in place, then seeing that I could add this arrangement so, I did, just that.

It could be improved by furnace brazing the standoffs to the webs but, in my case, it's way to late for that. It took me over 6 mo, to get it out of the machine shop, as it is.

University of Kentucky, BSME, 2002.  Minor in mathematics.

Good luck.

[blykins]

I posted this mod on ST....

You mean this thread? 

https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=61567&p=868883&hilit=girdle#p868883

The one where the first several responses are from seasoned engine builders telling you that you put holes where you shouldn't have put them?  And this response from a guy who's a mechanical engineer? 

"Mechanical Engineer here; not professional engine builder so YMMV.

For the few thousandths of distortion the block may experience, your outboard bolts aren't doing much of anything except maybe helping keep the bearing caps aligned. Even at .600 thick, the aspect ratio of the "beam" across the main caps is low. The mounting holes may weaken the block webs. Mounting a heavier structure to the block rails would be preferred.

Applying single point pressure to the center of your bearing caps doesn't seem cool at all and affects the cap bolt stretch that the bearing crush actually "sees". A machined flat on the caps such that the girdle becomes a series of straps across the cap bolts would be more rigid."


Hmmm.....the advice on that thread sounds very familiar!

Good luck, Franky boy.

[frnkeore]

I do have mechanical engineering degree & 40 years experience, & build my own sbfs. I do not want to write back & forth on speedtalk because it takes too much time, & I work full time.

Would you be willing to talk about this on the phone?

Copied from my messages at ST, this is the response I got from the guy I talked to.

The set screws are nothing more than contact supports, such as a steel strap would do and more dampening area.

So then what negative thing do you have to say about my pictured dry sump, water pump and timing belt drives?

Inquiring minds, want to know

[cammerfe]

Do you remember if it had a ASK number on it.

Besides being funded by Ford, the ASK means that it was also engineered by Ford, to be manufactured by a outside source.

Sorry, I don't remember. It was all aluminum castings except the scrapers and such, and I believe it was likely cast at the prototype foundry at Gate 4.

KS

[Nightmist66]

To lighten the mood, Here's a 351 split down the middle. Completely. In half. Also had a girdle...


https://youtu.be/MJLS9xFXYAQ

[frnkeore]

I was just looking at some of the responses and I saw that it may not be clear that this is a 3 stage DSP.

In this picture, you can see that the pressure stage is in the front (unlike most others), the screen covered port, is the 2nd stage. It savages and feeds the third stage outlet side, threw that thin, steel spacer (3/16) and that way both feed the return line, out the back of the pump.

[pbf777]

He has identified my dry sump, as one that was funded by Ford and could have been contracted out by H&M, Shelby or Gurney. I was told that it came from H&M but, they sold a lot of parts and could have got it from one of the other two sources. That info, come from the fact, that it has a ASK prefix, to it's part number.

      Do you know what actual racing project this was intended for?

      Scott.

[frnkeore]

It came out of a McLaren, MK3 Can Am car, in '69. A privateer effort and other than Gurney, the 289 didn't last long.

Both Shelby and Gurney ran Can Am with the 289. H&M did too but, with BBF.

The other possibility's are the racing, Shelby Cobra's and there were a few F5000/USRRC cars, mostly Gurney but, several privateer's ran them, too.

I suppose the design, could have come from the push rod Indy effort. If anyone has pictures of the crankcase of that engine, it would be appreciated.

[gt350hr]

Do you remember if it had a ASK number on it.

Besides being funded by Ford, the ASK means that it was also engineered by Ford, to be manufactured by a outside source.

    Frank,
        Let me correct you a tiny bit. ALL Ford experimental parts were "charged" to a development program. "Some" program had to pay for it. In the "EEE" building there were three "main" Engineering entities. Production based engineering was done using XE numbers. More "race oriented" stuff was done using SK numbers and "Scientific" stuff was done using ASK numbers. All of these numbers were tied to the specific blueprint for the part being designed. These parts were not specifically manufactured by an outside source. Parts specifically made by an outside source carried an XH number. By the numbers I see your setup is something designed by Ford to be used by Gurney (AAR) for use at Indy ('68). ASK numbered/designed parts were used on the early pushrod Indy Ford V8s in '62 and continued through '69 projects with Smokey Yunick. I have flywheels, valves, cylinder heads , blocks , rods, and other parts with ASK numbers as well as SK and XE numbers.
     Randy

[frnkeore]

Thank you, Randy. That's better info, than I got from Cushman.

The guy I got it from, said that it was a H&M so, I'm going to assume he bought the engine from them, with the dry sump.

I don't know how involved H&M was with Fords Indy program but, it does make since that it's roots, were from the the push rod Indy engine, as I alluded to, above.

The guy I bought it from, was a low end competitor and only raced, less than 2 years, including after he swapped out the 289 for SBC. He couldn't have bought the engine after '68 as that was the first year that I could find listings for him and he blew it in '69.

What about the part number, makes you think it was part of the Gurney effort, in '68? Could it have been surplus to  the earlier Indy push rod engine or does the part number make that impossible? I do know that H&M sold off a lot of Idy engine parts. I could have bought some at the Stroppe/H&M shop, in LB.

[pbf777]

I suppose the design, could have come from the push rod Indy effort.

    That's what I was thinking.           

    Scott.

[cammerfe]

FWIW, my land speed car has a Jaguar-design V8 in it. The mains are all in one piece so it's both a set of mains and a girdle. The factory calls it a 'base-plate'. The wet sump is an additional aluminum casting, complete with scrapers, although it has a transmission-sized steel stamping as a cover toward the front. The castings all tie the bottom end together. It's pretty stout. The design was cited as a 'best new engine design' when first introduced.

KS