Author Topic: Starting to understand why building engines may be best left to the professional  (Read 133698 times)

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blykins

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It's actually the valve spring pressure causing it to leap ahead.  If one set of rockers are on and the other side is off, the valve springs will cause it to jump like that.
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scott foxwell

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Rather than modify my previous post, since I've already owned up to being a little weak on taking measurements, I'm looking at the cam card and the intake should be open 9 degrees BTDC, and I'm seeing it open 10 ATDC. I think I need to do it again.
Looking at the valve events on the card, most cam cards I;ve seen will have a (-) behind the intake opening event if it's meant to open after TDC. If your .050 intake opening number is -9, then it should open 9* ATDC. If it's just a 9, then 9* BTDC. If it's supposed to open 9* before, and you're at 10* after, there's your problem.
Make sure you verify TDC.

My427stang

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It'd be surprising if it was -9, that'd have to be a 216 @ .050 lobe on a 117 centerline to have a 45 degree closing point.

He likely measured incorrectly
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Yellow Truck

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I'm sure I'm wrong in the measurements, starting with the fact that I didn't remove both rockers. I will do that next. I am also sure I'm wrong about the timing mark, that is just plain stupidity.

I will check the indicator dial for accuracy before I take the next set of measurements.

Since it is my mother's 98th birthday today, and I spent the day shadowing my brother through his speech and physio therapy I won't get on it today (plenty to be encouraged and alarmed about - but such is the nature of brain injuries).

I do know what I need to do next, thanks to your direction.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

Yellow Truck

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Not claiming that I have aster measuring things, but I think I have this one. The cam card calls for intake open 0.050 at 9 BTDC close 0.050 at 45 ABDC.  This is exactly as it is printed on the card.

As I measured it with both rockers off and with the dial indicator set up several times to make sure I didn't have an error caused by placement: intake opens at 8 BTDC and closes at 45 ABDC. I can also see about .336 of lift and it calls for .337 - occurring somewhere around 110 ATDC. I don't really have confidence in where the max lift occurs, but it is about the right amount and in the right area.

So, no gross error it seems. I am gathering that this doesn't mean the engine won't be happier if it is advanced, but I'm open to taking the timing cover off and adjusting it, but I'm looking at a picture of the Ford Racing M6268A390 timing set and would appreciate some guidance on how to move it the recommended amount. I've been looking and I don't see any instructions or videos.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

scott foxwell

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If it's that close I would leave it.

My427stang

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So, it's supposed to be 9/45 for a 108 ICL, you are reading 8/45 at near 110.  So no gross errors but your cam IMHO is slightly retarded for your use, ever so slightly big for your application.

Not everyone likes DCR, but a a computation for comparison of the compression stroke adjusted for intake events it makes sense.  Most good chamber, tight quench, decent compression, alum head street motors with matching parts, tend to be happy around 8.30-8.35 DCR using PKelley's calculator (others give different values)

Your cam, installed at open @ 9, close @ 45, and assuming you are accurate with an SCR of 10.03, and a 288 @ .006 lobe would have a DCR of 7.57.  Pretty low for a hot street motor. That is not a problem per se, but it does give up vacuum and part throttle power and lower cranking compression and/or low RPM pressures.  Low compression will want more ignition timing and have less vacuum.  Keep in mind, if it's actually a degree or two later than that, with a 110 ICL you end up at 7.44 DCR, that's real low.

So, does it make sense that you have low vacuum?  Yes, is it enough to make a huge difference?  Maybe, I certainly wouldn't want to give up DCR with a truck with good chambers that can actually take advantage of compression unlike the loose quench, poor chamber stockers that cannot handle compression as well.

So, would I pull the front cover change it?  I would have originally put that cam on a 104 ICL to end up at 7.84, and likely, if tolerances came in at 105 with a 4 degree advance, I'd go even farther to 103 before I left it at 105 (but you need to check valve clearance)    However, if you really have a mismarked TDC, before I moved the cam, I'd make sure my timing marks and curve was right, and likely go with 16 initial, 16-18 degree advance, all in by 2700 and make sure the timing marks were accurate.  A loss of 4 degrees ignition timing will kill vacuum and low end as well, especially with a slightly big/late cam


« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 05:20:05 PM by My427stang »
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Yellow Truck

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Ross - thanks for the good explanation. Ignore the comment I made about the timing pointer and harmonic balancer, that was a pure brain fart. I won't know until I put the balancer back on with the engine in TDC. I expect it is correct. At one point we set the timing just by how the engine responded, and it came in around 20-22, but the problem was the timing with this distributor keeps moving around as much as 5 degrees between starts. Waiting on a new distributor to solve that.

You have mentioned a couple of times a concern about valve/piston interference. I was under the impression that these engines didn't have piston/valve interference.

1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

My427stang

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You have mentioned a couple of times a concern about valve/piston interference. I was under the impression that these engines didn't have piston/valve interference.

The further you advance a cam, the tighter the intake valve can get, the later you retard it, the tighter an exhaust valve can get.

I would not expect you to have interference problems with a set of modern stroker pistons, but, when you start playing with very early cam timing ... <104...It's important to check, heck it's always important to check, but especially the intake side when getting early.

Now if whoever sold you the stroker parts says that cam with those pistons and heads are fine, I'd believe them, but I like to map out my clearance when I advance a cam

FYI - When my Mustang was a 433, I went from a 300 adv, 250@.050 108 LSA on 108 ICL (straight up) that was fussy as hell around town.  I advanced that cam 4 degrees, and when it came in it was really at 105 ICL (3 degrees advance) it made a noticeable difference in vacuum and part throttle response.  It doesn't sound like much, but it changes more in traffic than on a dyno IMHO

That being said, ignition timing, actual SCR, no vacuum leaks, sort all that out first IMHO, especially if you think the distributor is failing, but I do think you would benefit from cranking that cam forward.
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Yellow Truck

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Last dumb question for today - how do you confirm your valves don't interfere when the heads are on the engine? I am assuming that there is a minimum safe clearance since the engine moving at speed and under load will not hold the same relative positions as it does at rest.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

Yellow Truck

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Not a dumb question - given I have an engine that likes to pull at high RPM, but I'm really limited to 5,800 to 6,000 RPM, and it is suffering from run-on after shut down, and the cam is in the correct position according to the cam card - if I advance it by 2 or 3 degrees (I'm assuming the Ford Racing timing set has some fixed amounts it can move advanced or retarded since there are 9 keyways) will it affect the run-on? I gather 2 degrees will change the low end at a cost of the top end.

If I'm going to mess with it now is a good time since I have the front off the engine. Hate to put it back on only to pull it all off, but if that is the smart play while testing the new dizzy I will listen to those who have been here before.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

My427stang

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So, first, for run-on

Run-on after shut down is due to too high of an idle combined with an oxygen source. This is typically the throttle blades are too far open at idle, because some other part of the build drives it.

Some thoughts and reasoning

1 - Usually, the primaries are too far open, but it can be the secondaries on a 4 corner idle too.  This is really "dieseling" because the engine is firing on residual heat, combined with fuel and air being pulled in because of the carb being misadjusted. But...how do you get it to idle down?

2 - Initial timing - The higher the initial timing, generally the higher the vacuum and the lower the engine will happily idle on its own.  If you are 100% positive of your TDC, then just make sure with a cam like that, that you have somewhere north of 14, and if more, it's likely easier, but you don't usually NEED more.  Just to make sure you have the TDC checking correct, the only exact way now is to check with a piston stop.  You put a piece of tape on your balancer, all the way around, masking tape is fine.  Thread in a piston stop, turn the motor backwards by hand off the crank until it hits and stops.  Mark the tape, turn it the other way hut it hits again, mark the tape.  Measure the 1/2 way point between the marks, that is true TDC and should match your balancer.  If it doesn't, either the balancer is bad (if its way off) or could just be manufacturing differences or parts choices, just remark it

Also, timing is set and forget, unlike some steps below.  Pick a curve, set it up and rule it out.  I would go 16 initial after you verify TDC, likely a 16-18 bushing, and then choose springs for all in by 2700-2800.  Verify, then leave that part alone

3 - Adjust your carb correctly

You will likely have to go through these steps a couple times, and in this order.  Once you go through, if it idles too low or high, you have to go through all the steps again because A affects all

A -  Usually, you take off the carb and look at the blades.  The transition slots should just be showing with the carb NOT of fast idle.  Two goals here, front and back.  Transition slots barely showing (allows some vacuum to "preload" the circuit for when airflow kicks in, but not enough to pull fuel and not enough to let extra air in.  You adjust by the throttle stop screw on the rear, and on the front the idle speed screw.  Sometimes you have to do this a couple times because in the end, you would rather have the rears slightly open because the transition slot is a little higher and its not as fussy.  So bottom line on this, close up all 4 throttle plates to where they should be, and if required, bring the idle up slight later using the rear

B - Adjust idle air fuel correctly, start at 3/4 turns out if 4 corner idle.   Start the engine and watch manifold vacuum or listen with your ear.  Go in and out and watch what each screw does.  You want highest idle or highest vacuum.  Go in and out and repeat as many times to be sure.  I use my ear, but new guys often like a vacuum gauge.  However, be sure that all screws end up the same.  You should not be more than a 1/8-1/4 off that 3/4 initial setting, and usually you can almost just guess it there and leave it to be honest.  Same if it is 2 corner, but start at 1 1/8.  If after setting the timing, throttle plates and a/f, you cannot get it to idle, take the carb off and raise the rear idle a bit, very little, then go back and start over with the idle a/f at 3/4 or 1 1/8 depending on your carb.

C - Make sure heat is managed properly - A carb can lose it's ability to control fuel if boiling over.  Although this is generally not a cause of diseling, it can do some odd stuff if it gets hot.  So if you cannot easily tune it and it feels real hot at the carb, if you do not run a spacer, add a 1 inch phenolic, then start over with carb adjustment.  Keep in mind a 67-72 truck with an RPM intake doesn't have much room at the cab lip, so you may find you need to dent the air cleaner element or get creative if you put a big spacer with an RPM intake.  BTs and SD/SM do not have that issue

Next, the cam.  Will it help run-on?

Sort of, and yes, but not before what I typed above.

So, if you increase idle vacuum by any means, you can close the carb more and idle the engine down a bit more. So, advancing the cam will do that, assuming everything is correct above.  However everything above needs to be done or it can still diesel.  So, if you decide to advance the cam, then you have to recheck timing and readjust the carb.  The two major factors are carb and timing, so it sort of drives you to either try it, or just advance the cam now for a little better manners and then do your distributor swap, then your carb.  Again, it's not a magic bullet, but I would likely advance that cam for better street behavior.  Knowing perfectly well you proved that it wasn't your "problem" but at this point, it's apart and you can make it a little better, and in some conditions, noticeably better

Other questions

1 - The Ford racing timing set will let you advance in 2 degree increments.  I would go 4 degrees advanced slot, and then degree it for open/close.  It should be 13/41, or as close as you can get.  Srould you go more if it ends up at 12? Depends on the valve clearance checck

2 - How do you check clearance?  I put checking springs on the #1 cylinder's valves, although you can get away with just the intake valve on yours because the cam has already ran with the exhaust and advancing only tightens the intake, it'll make the exhaust better  You can use a Ford rocker shaft spring.  You do not need or want to assemble the rockers, but you do need to have the balancer on or the degree wheel set up for true TDC to reference TDC

Once its assembled with the soft spring, bring it to 20 degrees BTDC.  Measure installed height for the intake valve with a closed valve (retainer to bottom of spring) then push down on the valve tip (not the retainer it will pop off) until it hits the piston.  Subtract the numbers, that is how much total room you have.  Subtract valve lift from that and you get clearance, write that down.  Some might say to install the rockers, that's good with a solid cam, but for a hyd cam just measure

Do the same procedure at 15 BTDC, 10 BTDC, 5 BTDC, zero, clearance will shrink, repeat until it starts growing.  You now have a map of your clearance, it will likely be tightest at 10 BTDC or so..  It took as long to type as it does to check it.  Measure, turn, write down, repeat, then go do the math and if one set of numbers doesn't make sense, go back to the truck, and recheck.

As long as you are over .090 on the intake side, you will be good, and you can go tighter, but I doubt you are even close to that.  FYI, to repeat, the exhaust side it is more critical, but remember, it has not blown up yet, and advancing the cam gives you MORE room on the exhaust, so unless you want to, I wouldn't even look at it for this exercise

Once you advance that cam, set the timing (with the new distributor) and adjust the carb, life should be real good.

Question - I have been struggling to think about why the timing jumps around.  Could be a module, could be vacuum advance with the plates too far open, could be a bad rotor, distributor cap, if you have a rev limiter, I have seen pills go bad, or #1 spark plug wire is failing.  All of these would show on a timing light.  Have you checked any of those other things?  I have never seen a module bounce spark around unless it had a built in limiter that went bad/

« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 07:51:04 AM by My427stang »
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

country63sedan

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Excellent instructions Ross. Later, Travis

Yellow Truck

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I misunderstood - I thought you meant the run on was likely a consequence of retarded cam timing. I'm almost disappointed that it is correct because it means I still have a demon to find.

One detail I didn't mention - I did run it with an LM2 O2 sensor attached. In a quick test idle showed 15.7 to 17.5 (pretty lean), and WOT showed 12 with it momentarily as low as 10.9 on initial stomp. Cruise showed 14.25. In third if I stomped it under 3,000 I heard it rattle. It didn't rattle in second but I suspect that was because it gained RPM much more quickly.

I'll respond to your questions when I have had more time. Have a family thing with my brother today (they gave him a weekend pass out of the hospital).
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

My427stang

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So Paul, you have a lot going on, so no issues walking away for a few days.

However, just to be clear, your issues (not only run on, but all the other things that are abnormal) made sense with severely retarded cam timing..which you proved you did not have.  Hard to adjust carb, low vacuum, poor performance, etc.

That being said, you DO have retarded cam timing in my eyes, I would never run that cam that late in your combo, but I cannot say it is solely causing your problems, nor would anyone else on this forum except that it makes a slightly big cam act slightly bigger at idle especially

You know you have something wrong with the ignition and I am unsure what you have done inside the carburetor or how you adjusted.  Will you have a new distributor here soon?  Have you done any modifications to the carb? 

Let's talk more before you pull the trigger on anything and make a checklist.  If you follow what I wrote, assuming your carb is returned all back to as delivered and you sort out the timing/secodnary ignition issue, advancing the cam will make it run better, but the problem is undoubtedly there, it's just a nicely built 445

FYI - Your idle a/f means very little.  The other numbers look fine.  In the end, if the timing is changing, nothing else matters, including those numbers, the timing mark should be rock steady at idle
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch