Author Topic: Starting to understand why building engines may be best left to the professional  (Read 115752 times)

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Yellow Truck

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Not really, why should they have all the headaches?

My 445 is still very fresh - it doesn't have 100 miles on it yet, probably two hours of "on" time, so it is not completely surprising it has issues. As a refresh it is a 445, Prison Break package, with BBM heads, a Street Dominator intake, QFT SS 830, T&D street rockers, hydraulic roller lifters, and the cam specs are posted below.

I've added an MSD 6AL box, and it runs a Pertronix Flame Thrower coil. My MSD Ready to Run died, so went back to the original Ford distributor for now. Timing is around 14 at idle, 35 total at 3,500.

It was idling a little fast, so I backed off the idle adjustment today when it had been driven and it is around 750 right now. Here are the issues, I'll list them all since there may be some relationship:
  • I'm getting a lot of oil on the heads - it has the restrictors under the oil stand but it also has pushrods with holes at each end to pass oil - there is enough oil under the valve covers that the hose from the PCV to the vacuum port under the carb is wet
  • My vacuum is around 6 inches, I've been told with this combination it should be up around 10.
  • It tends to run on after it is turned off - it usually fires about 3 times.
  • I had issues with the lifter pre-load and have had to do the adjustment 3 times after we started it the first time. Problem has been combination of loud ticking once, and hanging valves twice
  • Today after running it two days ago for about 15 minutes and today for about 20 it had run very strongly, but when I got it home and went to back the idle off (it had been a little over 1,000) I noticed a pronounced tick. We put a stethoscope on it and I'm pretty sure it is in the same rocker area as the last time it got loud.
https://youtu.be/3erWvuPCBgk

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/410dyno/Cam%20Card.jpg


Do any of these things seem related? Any thoughts on why it won't hold a lifter pre-load adjustment? If it already has restrictors under the rocker stands, do I need to go to closed end pushrods?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 03:25:43 PM by Yellow Truck »
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

Drew Pojedinec

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This is gonna be harsh, so buckle up.

Not really, why should they have all the headaches?
Ok well first off.... no one starts off as an engine builder.  They own a series of progressively less shitty vehicles until they have mastered getting horribly worn out engines tuned well enough that they can function well enough to get them to work in the morning, many of these lessons are learned at 4am and hour before you need to leave.  After ten years you have enough money to build a stroker or other high performance engine.  If you skipped the important years..... your learning curve has to be steeper.

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Timing is around 14 at idle, 35 total at 3,500.
Your timing is crap.  Get the initial up to 18-20 and the total to 32.  If you lack the ability to do that, try out (temporarily) using manifold vacuum advance to see if there is a substantial change.
True perfect initial is dictated by the engine.  You want the highest steady vacuum.  Chances are with your setup that will come between 18-26.  If you say "but it won't crank hot"  whatever.... don't be a wuss, you built the performance engine, now go ahead and build a performance starting system.

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It was idling a little fast, so I backed off the idle adjustment today when it had been driven and it is around 750 right now.
Idle up to 900rpms in gear is just fine with that cam.  Your dieseling issue is more a result of the primaries being open too far.  Take the carb off and set the primary transition slot properly.  Set idle speed with the secondaries.  If this feels weird, start to reduce the secondaries a lil and open the primaries (A LITTLE!).
Also your pcv isn't functioning properly with your cam..... restrict it.  Or better yet, disconnect and plug it all to see if it makes a change in idle speed.  Chances are the pcv is all whack because you have no idle vacuum and it is allowing too much unmetered air into the engine.  This is raising the idle speed.  Easiest thing to do if you want to resctrict the pcv is to stuff a small hose into the existing pcv hose where it goes to the carb.  1/4inch hose fits nicely into a 1/2inch hose.  Try it out.
When you are done with this you'll probably be running fairly rich at idle, you may need to reduce the idle feed restriction......  I'm guessing that Q series has a .034 or some other massive IFR, try a .030 it'll blow your mind.  (I know I know, some will disagree, but I think the Q series isn't appropriate for a mild street engine)
Speaking of that, how sensitive are your idle screws?

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I'm getting a lot of oil on the heads - it has the restrictors under the oil stand but it also has pushrods with holes at each end to pass oil - there is enough oil under the valve covers that the hose from the PCV to the vacuum port under the carb is wet
Well yeah, you can't oil from the pushrods AND the rockers at the same time.  options depend on what your rockers call for.  If you can 100% block the rocker feed do that, if not suck it up and buy different pushrods.  Call your builder or rocker manufacturer and see what they suggest...... but you shouldn't be doing both.

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My vacuum is around 6 inches, I've been told with this combination it should be up around 10.
See my info above about basic tuning.  I'd wager you can get it up to 10-11 without much of an issue.

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It tends to run on after it is turned off - it usually fires about 3 times.
your primaries are too far open, see basic tuning info above.  (hint, advancing the initial results in you being able to close the throttle blades further, rpm isn't nearly as important as the throttle position, idle speed will fall where it needs to fall)

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I had issues with the lifter pre-load and have had to do the adjustment 3 times after we started it the first time. Problem has been combination of loud ticking once, and hanging valves twice
Your lifters are probably not bleeding off evenly and you lack the "feel" for when they are just barely touching the lifter.  Don't try to do anything fancy when setting them, just EOIC and when you feel ANY lack of up/down movement, set to your preload and move to the next valve.  Don't overthink it, and don't go back to double check, you'll overdo the preload.

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Today after running it two days ago for about 15 minutes and today for about 20 it had run very strongly, but when I got it home and went to back the idle off (it had been a little over 1,000) I noticed a pronounced tick. We put a stethoscope on it and I'm pretty sure it is in the same rocker area as the last time it got loud.
you own a stock quickfuel..... it's pretty common that you need to bend the secondary linkage on the throttle side to make sure when the throttle closes it forces the secondaries closed.

Ohh and how do your plugs look?

Any clarification needed, please ask, I'll go take some pictures.

Drew
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 05:33:39 PM by Drew Pojedinec »

blykins

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If you think we don't experience issues, call me sometime when you have 3-4 hours to just listen. 

The difference between a guy that does it for a living and a shadetree guy is just the amount of experience you get from doing it over and over and over and over and over.   We build more engines in a month than most "hobby" guys build in 5-10 years.   That means our lists of things to check is extremely long and we have most likely seen almost every combination of parts out there at least once.

Everybody starts somewhere.   Some guys start with tinkering on factory engines and then slowly progress from there.  I was kind of the opposite:  my first engine was a 425ci Windsor with aluminum heads, roller cam, etc.  I didn't start seeing a lot of factory parts until I started messing with FE's. 

You are doing everything the right way.  You've built a really nice engine for yourself and now you're in a learning process.  Tuning is completely different from assembling.   It takes a little experience in each facet to be comfortable. 

Drew gave you some good pointers.   Your run-on and vacuum issues are probably a combination of carb and ignition timing.   You should have 10-12 inches of vacuum, so I would look closely at how your carb is set up to idle and then pair that up with ignition timing.  Remember, if you bump the initial timing up, your idle speed will go up, and then you can close your throttle plate more, which will help build vacuum.  (Just remember to check total timing if you do it.)   If your rockers are able to be oiled through the pushrods, then just close off the feed in the heads.  You don't need both.   You could have a bad PCV valve as well, or an incorrectly sized PCV valve.   I think I went over the valve adjustment procedure with you on another thread. 

Come down with a plan and we'll help you follow through accordingly.
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
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Yellow Truck

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Drew and Brent - this is why I love this forum. Thanks very much for the detailed replies. I am having a ton of fun with this. Honestly, if it had gone together and run perfectly I'd have probably been disappointed. I do know that the best builders still have head scratchers to deal with.

I decided to build my first engine at 58 because I've always wanted to. I kept some shitty cars going 40 years ago, but I've been working and driving new vehicles for most of the last 35. It was time to have fun, and I'm having it.

I'm going to take some time and digest your replies as there is a lot in them. I am a little annoyed at having spent time with a bad MSD distributor, but those things are just the crap you run into. Sorting out the engine is interesting.

I'll be back after I've taken the next steps.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

Barry_R

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I oil from both ends pretty often.  But you need to restrict the head oiling when doing so.  On my heads or Edelbrocks I usually start out at .060 and will sometimes go smaller.  I like having the oil pop up into the rocker/pushrod interface since that is a high load area.  With  T&D roller fulcrum you don't need much oil there, but I still like to have some bleeding in from the shaft - the feed from the pushrod end won't get there as easily.  Don't know if/why the BBM head would flow and more than the others, but tighten the restriction down to maybe .040 or so and see how it works.

They have you well covered on the idle things.

unclewill

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IMO a good mechanic has equal parts patience, humility and tenacity...
1969 Ford Cobra, 482 side oiler, BBM aluminum heads, FiTech EFI, Edelbrock 7105, Comp 292H, CR 4 speed, 9", 3.50

Drew Pojedinec

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IMO a good mechanic has equal parts patience, humility and tenacity...

hehehe, at work, I get pissed off if anyone ever says anything positive about my wrenching.  Murphy's law regarding humility comes in strong there..... within an hour, something massive will break and I'll be killing myself trying to figure it out, while looking like an idiot because it's probably something simple :P


To Brent:
Why do you think I had you do the short block :P   The local machine shop crew breathes exclusively through their mouths and I just lack the hands on in that department to even know when they are screwing up.  Your fee was more than fair as a means of avoiding such stress and annoyance, I'll stick to what I'm good at.

Yellow Truck

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A couple of questions or clarifications - recognizing that I am learning as I go.

First - regarding idle speed it is a manual transmission, and it was idling at a little over 1,000 in neutral, not much difference clutch in or out. I was aiming at 800-900 but while adjusting it noticed it was starting to tick so left it down around 750 or so to start listening for the tick.

The reason I was changing over to a new distributor was that with the old Motorcraft one, on the truck now, the timing had a tendency to drift. When we set the timing this week, without the vacuum advance connected, we got it to run, then set the total timing at 35 and when it fell back it was around 14. With the vacuum attached it moved up to around 18. We did it this way based on some information I had been given that the MSD 6AL box multi spark behaviour made it a bit hard to read the timing at idle, so the best bet was to set it at 3,500 rpm. What we saw was with the throttle held steady, as the timing moved up to 35 degrees, the engine gained rpm. I assumed this indicated it was happier.

When I restarted the engine yesterday I checked the timing and it was back down around 14 with the vacuum attached. Given the previous history I wasn't surprised. Because of the ticking I didn't get back into the timing when it was full warmed up. I am hoping the MDS distributor comes back and works as I shipped it off to MSD last week. In addition to the bad pickup I noticed it was squeaking when I turned the shaft.

Staying with setting the timing, I want to make sure I really get this - with no vacuum attached the base timing should be between 18 to 20 degrees and total advance should be 32? According to the QFT instructions the spark advance should be attached to a ported vacuum connection on the side of the carb, which is where mine is attached now.

I'll get the carb off and look at this again, I know we started with too much primary when we first started it just to keep it running. The primary was open much to much and the secondary was closed. I backed the primary down so the transition slot showed a square and opened the secondary a similar amount. Prior to this the engine had not been responsive to the mixture screws, after it was responsive but I can't say how sensitive since that was last year and I don't remember. If I'm going to pull the carb and set the primary and secondary when I can see them, is it your advice to close the primary so no transition slot is visible? While the carb is off I'll make sure the link closes the secondary, if not I'll adjust the link bar.

The specs from QFT for the SS 830 don't mention the IFR, and I have no idea what they are, but I'll ask. Below are the specs they provided, and I changed the primary jets to compensate for the altitude based on QFT's advice.
High Speed Air Bleed   28
Idle Air Bleed Size   70
Primary Main Jet   78
Primary Power Valve   65
Primary Pump Nozzle Size   33;35

I'll tackle the oiling issue and lifter pre-load at the same time, since the rockers have to come off to restrict the oiling further. I think the consensus is to close off the oil passage under the rocker stand, I have restrictors in there now. The first time I did the pre-load I followed the T&D instructions and had hanging valves, backed them off and still had them hanging. Looking back over my records I see that last fall it started ticking and I DIDN'T adjust them again. It isn't a similar tick, it is the same tick. What I did was follow your EOIC process and it took between 1/4 and 1/8 of turn of the adjusting screw to snug the pushrods (they could be rotated with some effort but had no up/down movement) then turned the screw down one full turn. I hope it isn't a bad lifter for obvious reasons.

I will close off the PCV for the moment and then re-think what I'm doing. Question: how do you size a PCV valve? Maybe I'll leave that for the moment because I don't understand how to create a PCV system that will work and I've seen a bunch of different thoughts on it.

I liked your comment about "you built the performance engine, now go ahead and build a performance starting system", by "build a performance starting system" I gather you are suggesting I may need a new starter at some point. I'm running a very old Ford stock starter and for now it is working fine, but I hear you. Burning out the starter is an acceptable risk.

So, where to start? I think I'll have a look at the carb, close off the PCV, and have a go at the timing (in that order), and then tackle the oiling and preload issues.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

Drew Pojedinec

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The reason I was changing over to a new distributor was that with the old Motorcraft one, on the truck now, the timing had a tendency to drift.
Make sure your existing timing gun can function with an MSD box..... not all can.  A sure thing is noticing the timing bouncing ALL over the place below 3000rpms as the MSD (hence the name) throws out multiple sparks.  If you cannot afford a fancy msd compliant gun, just use any old ancient gun and mark the balancer where you want idle and max advance.

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When I restarted the engine yesterday I checked the timing and it was back down around 14 with the vacuum attached. Given the previous history I wasn't surprised.
To keep things simple, why not just cap the vacuum advance until your initial tuning is good?  If running ported vacuum it's only real function is to give you a lil better economy at cruise.

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Staying with setting the timing, I want to make sure I really get this - with no vacuum attached the base timing should be between 18 to 20 degrees and total advance should be 32?
Tis a wildassedguess based on comparable engines.  Your engine will tell you what it wants, and your starting system will tell you what it allows :P 

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I'll get the carb off and look at this again, I know we started with too much primary when we first started it just to keep it running. The primary was open much to much and the secondary was closed. I backed the primary down so the transition slot showed a square and opened the secondary a similar amount. Prior to this the engine had not been responsive to the mixture screws, after it was responsive but I can't say how sensitive since that was last year and I don't remember. If I'm going to pull the carb and set the primary and secondary when I can see them, is it your advice to close the primary so no transition slot is visible? While the carb is off I'll make sure the link closes the secondary, if not I'll adjust the link bar.
Slot on the primary needs to be a square (ideally).  Too little and you stumble off idle, too much and you pull too much fuel at idle.  Ok, looking under a carburetor, you'll see a round hole and a slot.  The round hole is from the idle screw.  The slot is from the transfer slot.  Really until the main metering system comes online you are running only on these, so it's setting is pretty critical.  Engines vary, but you aren't really pulling from the boosters (main metering) until 2000-2800rpms (totally dependent on several variables I'm not gonna get into right now).  With a QF I normally just set the primaries, check the secondary link, use a wrench to bend it so it stays shut fully.  Don't get crazy, but it needs to shut it..... I know I know it's supposed to shut on it's own, but well it doesn't always.  This is typically the issue where you leave the house at 900rpms go for a vigorous ride and the car idles at 1100rpms. 

I'll let someone more qualified discuss the oiling system.

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I will close off the PCV for the moment and then re-think what I'm doing. Question: how do you size a PCV valve? Maybe I'll leave that for the moment because I don't understand how to create a PCV system that will work and I've seen a bunch of different thoughts on it.
Well here is the deal..... a stock engine makes 18-20 inches of vac.  These keeps the PCV closed or mostly closed at idle and during cruise.  Maybe not closed, but it isn't flowing much.  Your engine makes 10inches of vac ideally, 6 at the moment.  Do you think the intake vac is pulling the pcv shut?
What happens if the pcv isnt' shut?
Chain reaction..... it stay open, you get a gulp of unmetered air, this raises idle speed, and due to the engine being somewhat randomly lean it makes adding fuel troublesome because at different rpm the engine is taking in different amounts of unmetered air.  Adding a restriction lessens this swing by only allowing so much in during low vac situations.


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I liked your comment about "you built the performance engine, now go ahead and build a performance starting system", by "build a performance starting system" I gather you are suggesting I may need a new starter at some point. I'm running a very old Ford stock starter and for now it is working fine, but I hear you. Burning out the starter is an acceptable risk.
Most factory starters will crank the engine hot at up to 18 degrees of advance.  Some may not.  Good battery, good cables, good starter, possible start/retard function are all part of the game.


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The specs from QFT for the SS 830 don't mention the IFR, and I have no idea what they are, but I'll ask. Below are the specs they provided, and I changed the primary jets to compensate for the altitude based on QFT's advice.
High Speed Air Bleed   28
Idle Air Bleed Size   70
Primary Main Jet   78

Ohh boy, a carb lesson.  Ok well power valve opening point is determined really by your cruise vacuum (mostly just that you don't want it opening at cruise).  Ignore that for now.  Jet size is strictly for cruising on the main circuit.  High speed bleed and idle bleed, well.... lets avoid those right now so we don't get too confused, same with emulsion bleeds....  those aren't the current issue, so lets put that off until another day.

As mentioned at idle and up until the mains come online you are driving on JUST the transfer slot and the idle feed hole.
If you have no idle screw adjustability or it is very desensitized you either have too much transfer slot showing, OR you are feeding way too much fuel at idle.
This is dictated by the Idle Feed Restriction (IFR)
On your quickfuel it'll be here:


On one of my carbs or on an older Holley it'll be in the low position:


Notice on the bottom photo with the IFR at the low position?  Ok, fuel from the main well flows from the cross drilled hole that is next to where I have that 6-32 restriction.  The restriction is for the fuel that flows into the idle well.  In the high position it pretty much does the same thing as fuel flows up the backside of the metering block to the top of the well through the high IFR hole.  Now look at the idle slot on the metering block.  Two holes..... one is for the transfer slot one is for the idle screw.  These two holes flow into the main body and to that round hole and transfer slot you see under the butterflies.  Obviously, you can only adjust one externally.... the idle screw.

Main well:


Idle well:


People like to say "well jus change da jets"
You can take the jets out... throw them in the trash and idle the engine just fine :P
They only really come into play at higher rpm and are for cruising. 
The power valve is held shut by vacuum (in your case til 6.5inch)
When vacuum drops below that it begins to open.... fully open a lil later as the vacuum drops.
For acceleration only are the PVCR  (power valve channel restrictors)  The power valve feeds directly into the main well which is going to the boosters.


and for reference, even tho I said I wasn't gonna go into it, the emulsion bleeds:



until you get the timing sorted and perfect, I wouldn't mess with this.
But...... once timing is sorted, and primary transfer slot is perfect, if you still lack adjustability with the idle screws, you *may* need to change that IFR to a smaller one.  The idle screws are good, but not if so much fuel is pouring in via the slot that they are but a drop in the bucket.  I'm sure others will argue, but I find most new carbs come too rich in this department.  The idle circuit is always working really, it just becomes obsolete once there is so much air flowing into the carburetor that the fuel it provides doesn't matter.

Drew
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 11:44:06 AM by Drew Pojedinec »

unclewill

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Thanks Drew for the PCV lesson, I may try restricting the line as you suggest given some minor cold start issues I have.  My 482 is running 12/36 deg mechanical advance and I only run straight manifold vacuum to the advance can (runs awesome).  EFI eliminates carb tuning, fun as it may be....
1969 Ford Cobra, 482 side oiler, BBM aluminum heads, FiTech EFI, Edelbrock 7105, Comp 292H, CR 4 speed, 9", 3.50

turbohunter

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That was nice of you Drew. Kudos.
Marc
'61 F100 292Y
'66 Mustang Injected 428
'66 Q code Country Squire wagon


Drew Pojedinec

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Thanks Drew for the PCV lesson, I may try restricting the line as you suggest given some minor cold start issues I have.  My 482 is running 12/36 deg mechanical advance and I only run straight manifold vacuum to the advance can (runs awesome).  EFI eliminates carb tuning, fun as it may be....

I tried the manifold vacuum thing, but it always made me slower than ported.  I imagine it has to do with the advance going from high to low to high and bouncing around.  I dunno..... I'm no expert, I just like tinkerin and trying to find perfection in the details.  Maybe I'm just missing some detail that can make manifold vac faster, but i haven't found it yet.  I do use it on some other people's cars simply because they have a junk starting system and don't want me to recurve the distributor or whatever, of course these folks are just thrilled the car runs... they aren't worried about it being faster.

You can run the pcv either way to be honest.  If the engine is tight and it isn't pulling oil from anywhere, you can tune around it either way.  I think the trick way would be keeping vac on the crankcase from an fully operational PCV and using a restrictor fitting for the air inlet into the crankcase.  Dunno, haven't really messed with it enough to form a conclusion on that.

Turbohunter, I had the parts laying around.  Between other jobs I've been drilling/tapping customizing old trash 600cfm carbs and testing them out with a wideband for 2x4 usage.  Just trying to repurpose old swap meet junk carbs that I'd pick up on the cheap.  It keeps me outta trouble, but I got weird hobbies.  I've got about a dozen of them done.... I might even sell them someday, more a journey than a destination kinda thing tho.

I apologize if I rambled in this thread... I'm not on the level of a Jay or brent or barry, I just like playing with engines and transmissions and these are some of my observations.

Yellow Truck

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Drew, I very much appreciate this. Gives me a different perspective.

Regarding your comment that some folks are just happy it runs, I think for me that is the first stage, but then I will want to get all I can out of it. It won't be quick, because I have much to learn, but that was the point.

Start messing with it tomorrow.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

Yellow Truck

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Small footnote - it pays to keep notes of what you have done. I have what I think is a ticking lifter/rocker. I recognized it because I've had it before. What I forgot is that at the time I didn't correct it since I was about to put the truck away since it had started to snow. It isn't very similar, it is the SAME tick.

Glad I had notes. Think I'll do a better job of keeping track from here on in.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

Yellow Truck

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Today I pulled the oil filter, will cut it open and make sure there isn't anything nasty in it since it is making a pronounced tick/knock. Cut one open in the fall and it had tiny metal flakes consistent with a new build, will see when my buddy with the oil can opener shows up.

Got the carb off and found a little surprise. The secondaries close down to a tiny square, but the primaries were open quite a bit. Played with it to make sure the secondaries were snapping shut (seem to be) but I could hear a sound from near the electric choke. Noticed that the set screw on the choke was keeping the primaries open. I have the choke rotated out of play at the moment, and we didn't touch the choke adjustment screw.

I also noticed that the primary idle adjustment screw was NOT making contact with the lever. Backed the choke screw off enough so that it allows the primaries to completely close, then adjusted the idle set screw so it opens the primaries so I can only see a square on the transition slot. Pictures below.

Am I right in my assumption that this is the correct starting position for adjusting the carb? I also have the vacuum connections all closed off include the PCV.

Primaries as it came off the engine:



Secondaries as it came off the engine:



Primaries after I backed off the choke set screw:

1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.