FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Yellow Truck on May 18, 2017, 03:00:51 PM
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Not really, why should they have all the headaches?
My 445 is still very fresh - it doesn't have 100 miles on it yet, probably two hours of "on" time, so it is not completely surprising it has issues. As a refresh it is a 445, Prison Break package, with BBM heads, a Street Dominator intake, QFT SS 830, T&D street rockers, hydraulic roller lifters, and the cam specs are posted below.
I've added an MSD 6AL box, and it runs a Pertronix Flame Thrower coil. My MSD Ready to Run died, so went back to the original Ford distributor for now. Timing is around 14 at idle, 35 total at 3,500.
It was idling a little fast, so I backed off the idle adjustment today when it had been driven and it is around 750 right now. Here are the issues, I'll list them all since there may be some relationship:
- I'm getting a lot of oil on the heads - it has the restrictors under the oil stand but it also has pushrods with holes at each end to pass oil - there is enough oil under the valve covers that the hose from the PCV to the vacuum port under the carb is wet
- My vacuum is around 6 inches, I've been told with this combination it should be up around 10.
- It tends to run on after it is turned off - it usually fires about 3 times.
- I had issues with the lifter pre-load and have had to do the adjustment 3 times after we started it the first time. Problem has been combination of loud ticking once, and hanging valves twice
- Today after running it two days ago for about 15 minutes and today for about 20 it had run very strongly, but when I got it home and went to back the idle off (it had been a little over 1,000) I noticed a pronounced tick. We put a stethoscope on it and I'm pretty sure it is in the same rocker area as the last time it got loud.
https://youtu.be/3erWvuPCBgk (https://youtu.be/3erWvuPCBgk)
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/410dyno/Cam%20Card.jpg (http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/410dyno/Cam%20Card.jpg)
Do any of these things seem related? Any thoughts on why it won't hold a lifter pre-load adjustment? If it already has restrictors under the rocker stands, do I need to go to closed end pushrods?
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This is gonna be harsh, so buckle up.
Not really, why should they have all the headaches?
Ok well first off.... no one starts off as an engine builder. They own a series of progressively less shitty vehicles until they have mastered getting horribly worn out engines tuned well enough that they can function well enough to get them to work in the morning, many of these lessons are learned at 4am and hour before you need to leave. After ten years you have enough money to build a stroker or other high performance engine. If you skipped the important years..... your learning curve has to be steeper.
Timing is around 14 at idle, 35 total at 3,500.
Your timing is crap. Get the initial up to 18-20 and the total to 32. If you lack the ability to do that, try out (temporarily) using manifold vacuum advance to see if there is a substantial change.
True perfect initial is dictated by the engine. You want the highest steady vacuum. Chances are with your setup that will come between 18-26. If you say "but it won't crank hot" whatever.... don't be a wuss, you built the performance engine, now go ahead and build a performance starting system.
It was idling a little fast, so I backed off the idle adjustment today when it had been driven and it is around 750 right now.
Idle up to 900rpms in gear is just fine with that cam. Your dieseling issue is more a result of the primaries being open too far. Take the carb off and set the primary transition slot properly. Set idle speed with the secondaries. If this feels weird, start to reduce the secondaries a lil and open the primaries (A LITTLE!).
Also your pcv isn't functioning properly with your cam..... restrict it. Or better yet, disconnect and plug it all to see if it makes a change in idle speed. Chances are the pcv is all whack because you have no idle vacuum and it is allowing too much unmetered air into the engine. This is raising the idle speed. Easiest thing to do if you want to resctrict the pcv is to stuff a small hose into the existing pcv hose where it goes to the carb. 1/4inch hose fits nicely into a 1/2inch hose. Try it out.
When you are done with this you'll probably be running fairly rich at idle, you may need to reduce the idle feed restriction...... I'm guessing that Q series has a .034 or some other massive IFR, try a .030 it'll blow your mind. (I know I know, some will disagree, but I think the Q series isn't appropriate for a mild street engine)
Speaking of that, how sensitive are your idle screws?
I'm getting a lot of oil on the heads - it has the restrictors under the oil stand but it also has pushrods with holes at each end to pass oil - there is enough oil under the valve covers that the hose from the PCV to the vacuum port under the carb is wet
Well yeah, you can't oil from the pushrods AND the rockers at the same time. options depend on what your rockers call for. If you can 100% block the rocker feed do that, if not suck it up and buy different pushrods. Call your builder or rocker manufacturer and see what they suggest...... but you shouldn't be doing both.
My vacuum is around 6 inches, I've been told with this combination it should be up around 10.
See my info above about basic tuning. I'd wager you can get it up to 10-11 without much of an issue.
It tends to run on after it is turned off - it usually fires about 3 times.
your primaries are too far open, see basic tuning info above. (hint, advancing the initial results in you being able to close the throttle blades further, rpm isn't nearly as important as the throttle position, idle speed will fall where it needs to fall)
I had issues with the lifter pre-load and have had to do the adjustment 3 times after we started it the first time. Problem has been combination of loud ticking once, and hanging valves twice
Your lifters are probably not bleeding off evenly and you lack the "feel" for when they are just barely touching the lifter. Don't try to do anything fancy when setting them, just EOIC and when you feel ANY lack of up/down movement, set to your preload and move to the next valve. Don't overthink it, and don't go back to double check, you'll overdo the preload.
Today after running it two days ago for about 15 minutes and today for about 20 it had run very strongly, but when I got it home and went to back the idle off (it had been a little over 1,000) I noticed a pronounced tick. We put a stethoscope on it and I'm pretty sure it is in the same rocker area as the last time it got loud.
you own a stock quickfuel..... it's pretty common that you need to bend the secondary linkage on the throttle side to make sure when the throttle closes it forces the secondaries closed.
Ohh and how do your plugs look?
Any clarification needed, please ask, I'll go take some pictures.
Drew
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If you think we don't experience issues, call me sometime when you have 3-4 hours to just listen.
The difference between a guy that does it for a living and a shadetree guy is just the amount of experience you get from doing it over and over and over and over and over. We build more engines in a month than most "hobby" guys build in 5-10 years. That means our lists of things to check is extremely long and we have most likely seen almost every combination of parts out there at least once.
Everybody starts somewhere. Some guys start with tinkering on factory engines and then slowly progress from there. I was kind of the opposite: my first engine was a 425ci Windsor with aluminum heads, roller cam, etc. I didn't start seeing a lot of factory parts until I started messing with FE's.
You are doing everything the right way. You've built a really nice engine for yourself and now you're in a learning process. Tuning is completely different from assembling. It takes a little experience in each facet to be comfortable.
Drew gave you some good pointers. Your run-on and vacuum issues are probably a combination of carb and ignition timing. You should have 10-12 inches of vacuum, so I would look closely at how your carb is set up to idle and then pair that up with ignition timing. Remember, if you bump the initial timing up, your idle speed will go up, and then you can close your throttle plate more, which will help build vacuum. (Just remember to check total timing if you do it.) If your rockers are able to be oiled through the pushrods, then just close off the feed in the heads. You don't need both. You could have a bad PCV valve as well, or an incorrectly sized PCV valve. I think I went over the valve adjustment procedure with you on another thread.
Come down with a plan and we'll help you follow through accordingly.
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Drew and Brent - this is why I love this forum. Thanks very much for the detailed replies. I am having a ton of fun with this. Honestly, if it had gone together and run perfectly I'd have probably been disappointed. I do know that the best builders still have head scratchers to deal with.
I decided to build my first engine at 58 because I've always wanted to. I kept some shitty cars going 40 years ago, but I've been working and driving new vehicles for most of the last 35. It was time to have fun, and I'm having it.
I'm going to take some time and digest your replies as there is a lot in them. I am a little annoyed at having spent time with a bad MSD distributor, but those things are just the crap you run into. Sorting out the engine is interesting.
I'll be back after I've taken the next steps.
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I oil from both ends pretty often. But you need to restrict the head oiling when doing so. On my heads or Edelbrocks I usually start out at .060 and will sometimes go smaller. I like having the oil pop up into the rocker/pushrod interface since that is a high load area. With T&D roller fulcrum you don't need much oil there, but I still like to have some bleeding in from the shaft - the feed from the pushrod end won't get there as easily. Don't know if/why the BBM head would flow and more than the others, but tighten the restriction down to maybe .040 or so and see how it works.
They have you well covered on the idle things.
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IMO a good mechanic has equal parts patience, humility and tenacity...
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IMO a good mechanic has equal parts patience, humility and tenacity...
hehehe, at work, I get pissed off if anyone ever says anything positive about my wrenching. Murphy's law regarding humility comes in strong there..... within an hour, something massive will break and I'll be killing myself trying to figure it out, while looking like an idiot because it's probably something simple :P
To Brent:
Why do you think I had you do the short block :P The local machine shop crew breathes exclusively through their mouths and I just lack the hands on in that department to even know when they are screwing up. Your fee was more than fair as a means of avoiding such stress and annoyance, I'll stick to what I'm good at.
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A couple of questions or clarifications - recognizing that I am learning as I go.
First - regarding idle speed it is a manual transmission, and it was idling at a little over 1,000 in neutral, not much difference clutch in or out. I was aiming at 800-900 but while adjusting it noticed it was starting to tick so left it down around 750 or so to start listening for the tick.
The reason I was changing over to a new distributor was that with the old Motorcraft one, on the truck now, the timing had a tendency to drift. When we set the timing this week, without the vacuum advance connected, we got it to run, then set the total timing at 35 and when it fell back it was around 14. With the vacuum attached it moved up to around 18. We did it this way based on some information I had been given that the MSD 6AL box multi spark behaviour made it a bit hard to read the timing at idle, so the best bet was to set it at 3,500 rpm. What we saw was with the throttle held steady, as the timing moved up to 35 degrees, the engine gained rpm. I assumed this indicated it was happier.
When I restarted the engine yesterday I checked the timing and it was back down around 14 with the vacuum attached. Given the previous history I wasn't surprised. Because of the ticking I didn't get back into the timing when it was full warmed up. I am hoping the MDS distributor comes back and works as I shipped it off to MSD last week. In addition to the bad pickup I noticed it was squeaking when I turned the shaft.
Staying with setting the timing, I want to make sure I really get this - with no vacuum attached the base timing should be between 18 to 20 degrees and total advance should be 32? According to the QFT instructions the spark advance should be attached to a ported vacuum connection on the side of the carb, which is where mine is attached now.
I'll get the carb off and look at this again, I know we started with too much primary when we first started it just to keep it running. The primary was open much to much and the secondary was closed. I backed the primary down so the transition slot showed a square and opened the secondary a similar amount. Prior to this the engine had not been responsive to the mixture screws, after it was responsive but I can't say how sensitive since that was last year and I don't remember. If I'm going to pull the carb and set the primary and secondary when I can see them, is it your advice to close the primary so no transition slot is visible? While the carb is off I'll make sure the link closes the secondary, if not I'll adjust the link bar.
The specs from QFT for the SS 830 don't mention the IFR, and I have no idea what they are, but I'll ask. Below are the specs they provided, and I changed the primary jets to compensate for the altitude based on QFT's advice.
High Speed Air Bleed 28
Idle Air Bleed Size 70
Primary Main Jet 78
Primary Power Valve 65
Primary Pump Nozzle Size 33;35
I'll tackle the oiling issue and lifter pre-load at the same time, since the rockers have to come off to restrict the oiling further. I think the consensus is to close off the oil passage under the rocker stand, I have restrictors in there now. The first time I did the pre-load I followed the T&D instructions and had hanging valves, backed them off and still had them hanging. Looking back over my records I see that last fall it started ticking and I DIDN'T adjust them again. It isn't a similar tick, it is the same tick. What I did was follow your EOIC process and it took between 1/4 and 1/8 of turn of the adjusting screw to snug the pushrods (they could be rotated with some effort but had no up/down movement) then turned the screw down one full turn. I hope it isn't a bad lifter for obvious reasons.
I will close off the PCV for the moment and then re-think what I'm doing. Question: how do you size a PCV valve? Maybe I'll leave that for the moment because I don't understand how to create a PCV system that will work and I've seen a bunch of different thoughts on it.
I liked your comment about "you built the performance engine, now go ahead and build a performance starting system", by "build a performance starting system" I gather you are suggesting I may need a new starter at some point. I'm running a very old Ford stock starter and for now it is working fine, but I hear you. Burning out the starter is an acceptable risk.
So, where to start? I think I'll have a look at the carb, close off the PCV, and have a go at the timing (in that order), and then tackle the oiling and preload issues.
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The reason I was changing over to a new distributor was that with the old Motorcraft one, on the truck now, the timing had a tendency to drift.
Make sure your existing timing gun can function with an MSD box..... not all can. A sure thing is noticing the timing bouncing ALL over the place below 3000rpms as the MSD (hence the name) throws out multiple sparks. If you cannot afford a fancy msd compliant gun, just use any old ancient gun and mark the balancer where you want idle and max advance.
When I restarted the engine yesterday I checked the timing and it was back down around 14 with the vacuum attached. Given the previous history I wasn't surprised.
To keep things simple, why not just cap the vacuum advance until your initial tuning is good? If running ported vacuum it's only real function is to give you a lil better economy at cruise.
Staying with setting the timing, I want to make sure I really get this - with no vacuum attached the base timing should be between 18 to 20 degrees and total advance should be 32?
Tis a wildassedguess based on comparable engines. Your engine will tell you what it wants, and your starting system will tell you what it allows :P
I'll get the carb off and look at this again, I know we started with too much primary when we first started it just to keep it running. The primary was open much to much and the secondary was closed. I backed the primary down so the transition slot showed a square and opened the secondary a similar amount. Prior to this the engine had not been responsive to the mixture screws, after it was responsive but I can't say how sensitive since that was last year and I don't remember. If I'm going to pull the carb and set the primary and secondary when I can see them, is it your advice to close the primary so no transition slot is visible? While the carb is off I'll make sure the link closes the secondary, if not I'll adjust the link bar.
Slot on the primary needs to be a square (ideally). Too little and you stumble off idle, too much and you pull too much fuel at idle. Ok, looking under a carburetor, you'll see a round hole and a slot. The round hole is from the idle screw. The slot is from the transfer slot. Really until the main metering system comes online you are running only on these, so it's setting is pretty critical. Engines vary, but you aren't really pulling from the boosters (main metering) until 2000-2800rpms (totally dependent on several variables I'm not gonna get into right now). With a QF I normally just set the primaries, check the secondary link, use a wrench to bend it so it stays shut fully. Don't get crazy, but it needs to shut it..... I know I know it's supposed to shut on it's own, but well it doesn't always. This is typically the issue where you leave the house at 900rpms go for a vigorous ride and the car idles at 1100rpms.
I'll let someone more qualified discuss the oiling system.
I will close off the PCV for the moment and then re-think what I'm doing. Question: how do you size a PCV valve? Maybe I'll leave that for the moment because I don't understand how to create a PCV system that will work and I've seen a bunch of different thoughts on it.
Well here is the deal..... a stock engine makes 18-20 inches of vac. These keeps the PCV closed or mostly closed at idle and during cruise. Maybe not closed, but it isn't flowing much. Your engine makes 10inches of vac ideally, 6 at the moment. Do you think the intake vac is pulling the pcv shut?
What happens if the pcv isnt' shut?
Chain reaction..... it stay open, you get a gulp of unmetered air, this raises idle speed, and due to the engine being somewhat randomly lean it makes adding fuel troublesome because at different rpm the engine is taking in different amounts of unmetered air. Adding a restriction lessens this swing by only allowing so much in during low vac situations.
I liked your comment about "you built the performance engine, now go ahead and build a performance starting system", by "build a performance starting system" I gather you are suggesting I may need a new starter at some point. I'm running a very old Ford stock starter and for now it is working fine, but I hear you. Burning out the starter is an acceptable risk.
Most factory starters will crank the engine hot at up to 18 degrees of advance. Some may not. Good battery, good cables, good starter, possible start/retard function are all part of the game.
The specs from QFT for the SS 830 don't mention the IFR, and I have no idea what they are, but I'll ask. Below are the specs they provided, and I changed the primary jets to compensate for the altitude based on QFT's advice.
High Speed Air Bleed 28
Idle Air Bleed Size 70
Primary Main Jet 78
Ohh boy, a carb lesson. Ok well power valve opening point is determined really by your cruise vacuum (mostly just that you don't want it opening at cruise). Ignore that for now. Jet size is strictly for cruising on the main circuit. High speed bleed and idle bleed, well.... lets avoid those right now so we don't get too confused, same with emulsion bleeds.... those aren't the current issue, so lets put that off until another day.
As mentioned at idle and up until the mains come online you are driving on JUST the transfer slot and the idle feed hole.
If you have no idle screw adjustability or it is very desensitized you either have too much transfer slot showing, OR you are feeding way too much fuel at idle.
This is dictated by the Idle Feed Restriction (IFR)
On your quickfuel it'll be here:
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i6/DeepRootsNursery/IMG_2361_zpsn3mu9dam.jpg)
On one of my carbs or on an older Holley it'll be in the low position:
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i6/DeepRootsNursery/IMG_2360_zps32imfaav.jpg)
Notice on the bottom photo with the IFR at the low position? Ok, fuel from the main well flows from the cross drilled hole that is next to where I have that 6-32 restriction. The restriction is for the fuel that flows into the idle well. In the high position it pretty much does the same thing as fuel flows up the backside of the metering block to the top of the well through the high IFR hole. Now look at the idle slot on the metering block. Two holes..... one is for the transfer slot one is for the idle screw. These two holes flow into the main body and to that round hole and transfer slot you see under the butterflies. Obviously, you can only adjust one externally.... the idle screw.
Main well:
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i6/DeepRootsNursery/IMG_2364_zpsz2vwivns.jpg)
Idle well:
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i6/DeepRootsNursery/IMG_2365_zpsob0ddwjv.jpg)
People like to say "well jus change da jets"
You can take the jets out... throw them in the trash and idle the engine just fine :P
They only really come into play at higher rpm and are for cruising.
The power valve is held shut by vacuum (in your case til 6.5inch)
When vacuum drops below that it begins to open.... fully open a lil later as the vacuum drops.
For acceleration only are the PVCR (power valve channel restrictors) The power valve feeds directly into the main well which is going to the boosters.
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i6/DeepRootsNursery/IMG_2363_zpsvqj8mmcr.jpg)
and for reference, even tho I said I wasn't gonna go into it, the emulsion bleeds:
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i6/DeepRootsNursery/IMG_2362_zpssgepixre.jpg)
until you get the timing sorted and perfect, I wouldn't mess with this.
But...... once timing is sorted, and primary transfer slot is perfect, if you still lack adjustability with the idle screws, you *may* need to change that IFR to a smaller one. The idle screws are good, but not if so much fuel is pouring in via the slot that they are but a drop in the bucket. I'm sure others will argue, but I find most new carbs come too rich in this department. The idle circuit is always working really, it just becomes obsolete once there is so much air flowing into the carburetor that the fuel it provides doesn't matter.
Drew
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Thanks Drew for the PCV lesson, I may try restricting the line as you suggest given some minor cold start issues I have. My 482 is running 12/36 deg mechanical advance and I only run straight manifold vacuum to the advance can (runs awesome). EFI eliminates carb tuning, fun as it may be....
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That was nice of you Drew. Kudos.
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Thanks Drew for the PCV lesson, I may try restricting the line as you suggest given some minor cold start issues I have. My 482 is running 12/36 deg mechanical advance and I only run straight manifold vacuum to the advance can (runs awesome). EFI eliminates carb tuning, fun as it may be....
I tried the manifold vacuum thing, but it always made me slower than ported. I imagine it has to do with the advance going from high to low to high and bouncing around. I dunno..... I'm no expert, I just like tinkerin and trying to find perfection in the details. Maybe I'm just missing some detail that can make manifold vac faster, but i haven't found it yet. I do use it on some other people's cars simply because they have a junk starting system and don't want me to recurve the distributor or whatever, of course these folks are just thrilled the car runs... they aren't worried about it being faster.
You can run the pcv either way to be honest. If the engine is tight and it isn't pulling oil from anywhere, you can tune around it either way. I think the trick way would be keeping vac on the crankcase from an fully operational PCV and using a restrictor fitting for the air inlet into the crankcase. Dunno, haven't really messed with it enough to form a conclusion on that.
Turbohunter, I had the parts laying around. Between other jobs I've been drilling/tapping customizing old trash 600cfm carbs and testing them out with a wideband for 2x4 usage. Just trying to repurpose old swap meet junk carbs that I'd pick up on the cheap. It keeps me outta trouble, but I got weird hobbies. I've got about a dozen of them done.... I might even sell them someday, more a journey than a destination kinda thing tho.
I apologize if I rambled in this thread... I'm not on the level of a Jay or brent or barry, I just like playing with engines and transmissions and these are some of my observations.
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Drew, I very much appreciate this. Gives me a different perspective.
Regarding your comment that some folks are just happy it runs, I think for me that is the first stage, but then I will want to get all I can out of it. It won't be quick, because I have much to learn, but that was the point.
Start messing with it tomorrow.
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Small footnote - it pays to keep notes of what you have done. I have what I think is a ticking lifter/rocker. I recognized it because I've had it before. What I forgot is that at the time I didn't correct it since I was about to put the truck away since it had started to snow. It isn't very similar, it is the SAME tick.
Glad I had notes. Think I'll do a better job of keeping track from here on in.
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Today I pulled the oil filter, will cut it open and make sure there isn't anything nasty in it since it is making a pronounced tick/knock. Cut one open in the fall and it had tiny metal flakes consistent with a new build, will see when my buddy with the oil can opener shows up.
Got the carb off and found a little surprise. The secondaries close down to a tiny square, but the primaries were open quite a bit. Played with it to make sure the secondaries were snapping shut (seem to be) but I could hear a sound from near the electric choke. Noticed that the set screw on the choke was keeping the primaries open. I have the choke rotated out of play at the moment, and we didn't touch the choke adjustment screw.
I also noticed that the primary idle adjustment screw was NOT making contact with the lever. Backed the choke screw off enough so that it allows the primaries to completely close, then adjusted the idle set screw so it opens the primaries so I can only see a square on the transition slot. Pictures below.
Am I right in my assumption that this is the correct starting position for adjusting the carb? I also have the vacuum connections all closed off include the PCV.
Primaries as it came off the engine:
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/410dyno/Primaries%20as%20removed_1.jpg)
Secondaries as it came off the engine:
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/410dyno/Secondaries_1.jpg)
Primaries after I backed off the choke set screw:
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/410dyno/Secondaries.jpg)
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Looks good.
Sometimes the red plastic choke part can get hung up with the choke too. Some are more annoying to get set right than others.
Tiny metal flakes are normal to find in the filter on a new build?
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I have the choke rotated so it is out of the equation for now, hence my surprise that it was still a factor. Thought I'd get it running properly, then mess with the choke. Pain in the ass that you have to take the carb off to adjust much of this stuff. Wouldn't mind except for getting gas all over the place.
Regarding the flakes - they were few and tiny, but what do I know. It is my first engine. Given that I tend to seek adult supervision for critical bits, and I have a fiend who is a mechanic for Caterpillar. He has built a few engines, generally the top end leaving the short block to a machine shop. His current project is a 521 he built in a '68 F100. Makes mine look like an econobox, in fact, makes my C13 in my motor home look reasonable.
Certainly he is not a builder, but he has installed a lot of new or newly rebuilt engines, mostly diesels, and run them for an hour then pulled oil filter and inspected it (that is why he has the oil filter opener - a CAT part), he was not concerned and felt that the little bits we saw were normal left overs from the machining that you can't get when you clean it.
I have no prior experience to rely on. I will be cutting open the filter I took off today - it has about 40 minutes on it. I'll post a picture.
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You are spot on with throttle position pri and sec,the secondary should just be open so much that its not sticking in the bore.
Mark your curb idle screw so you know exactly where the position on square transition slots are with out taking the carby of to check.fore it so uyo always can com back to it easily when you are tuning back and fort with idle mix crews and idle settings and static timing.
If you need more "idle opening"of the pri throttle plates over "square position" the right thing to do is drill holes in pri plates, it all depends
on engine size, intake typ, cam, PCV,static timing settings and so on.
445" size engine might need drill holes in pri plates in 0.080 " size to start with.
Total advance timing if latest edition fast burn combustion chambers BBM heads, should not need more than 33" i beleve.
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I would not drill your plates unless absolutely required, and rarely do I see a need for that unless severely undercarbed
In theory, if your no choke settings looked like the "hung up choke" settings. I'd close the primaries (I like the idea of marking the screw, very clever) Then open the secondaries until you have a good warm idle with choke linkage verified out of the way, set idle a/f and tweak if required.
Then secondary transition slot is much less fussy and with an 830 cfm carb, there should be no reason that the engine needs to go deep into them to get where you need to be
However, your picture of the primaries with the choke holding it up is irrelevant. Once warm, the two pics you have are good. You seem to be where you need to be and have room to raise idle if you have to using the primaries. Just remember if running vacuum advance, you cannot set initial timing with the plates held open by the choke, you have to have it in it's hot idle configuration (choke out of the way)
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I agree about marking the screw, was thinking about that last night. The tricky bit is adjusting the secondaries if I want a bit more air. I will spend a bit of time messing with the choke to make sure it is OUT of play for now. It was keeping the primaries open regardless of the idle screw position.
I did have it in a shop briefly last year and they may have played with the choke. For now I don't want it in my path. Then I'll put the carb back and start it and play with the timing and idle mixture a little. I don't have O2 bungs in it at the moment, my exhaust shop forgot them last year, but I'll have them put in this week coming and I can get a better idea of what it is doing.
I will also cut open that filter I just took off and give it a look. Then I need to deal with the oiling and lifter preload.
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I've worked on many many engines and have always been able to avoid drilling the throttle plates.
Seems like that is just a bandaid for improper settings. (using initial timing to raise idle speed and close plates)
Secondaries on your quickfuel are easily adjusted while the carb is installed with a 3/32 allen wrench. It takes a lil practice to do it while it's running and the engine is shaking.
Don't be surprised if yours Wideband isn't an exact thing with your cam/engine setup.
Use it for a reference point, don't get hung up on a particular number.
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I've worked on many many engines and have always been able to avoid drilling the throttle plates.
Seems like that is just a bandaid for improper settings. (using initial timing to raise idle speed and close plates)
I agree in principle Drew that most (95% +) don't need drilled plates. But on a really hot-cammed engine, it does work.
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I have read about drilling the plates, but generally the advise is to not do it. I'm no expert, but I don't think my cam runs into the category of "really hot cam". I will mark the screw, that is a good suggestion, and if I need more air than I think the primary should be giving, I'll open the secondary a fraction.
When we first got it started we opened the primary too much just to keep it lit, and noticed that the mixture screws had zero effect. Even turning the all the way in the idle stayed the same. I'm more cautious now about that idle adjustment screw.
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Hi everybody i have been a member to this forum fore a while trying to read up my knowing on FE´s have plans for a 68 coup 427 so build
this was my presentation.I am a Swedish old fart so you have to excuse my spelling now and den.
My suggestions to yellow truck that he maybe has to drill the pri plates was meant as a last resorse to avoid open pri ore sec plates up to far on Tsl
there is absolutely no disadvantage to drill the plates to gain a proper idle if you have to, except the hassel to do it.
Think of the idlemix screws as a valve to open ore close metered fuel to the engine sucked in by intake vac and Tsl to bring the rpm up still depending of int vac fore delivery before air stream starts to bring on yore boosters.
To much Tsl opening on idle will therefor swing your idle AF/R way of tuning ability with the vacuum swings between idle of idle and light cruise
witsh all are depending on int vac fore fuel delivery. ok lets say you bring your initial timing way up to get maximum int vac at idle, lots of timing requaier a leaner AF/R to burn properly and if you have a stall conv and the tranny loads up a little you get a significant more idle rpm drop
bacuse high timing lean AF/R idle has lesser power to stand against loads and when idle rpm drops so duss int vac and very often even a little of centrifugal timing it is very important to set your dizzy up to avoid to earlie centrifigal advance lets say a couple of 100 rpm above idle
between idle of idle and idle in gear with auto trans there should not bee any timing differences to avoid disturb-ens of your carb calibration
You can absolutley tinker with pri and sec throttle plates opening to gain proper idle ass long you are shore of how far up Tsl you are and take in to consideration of what it brings your calibration. There shore is a reason for all cars to have a functional choke a proper sett up carb shall run like crapp for a few minutes even in desent temp with out a choke. most people just dont realises how lean there carbs can be set up and still get you all the power you want on demand but have a clean cruising engine
I just tuned a 440 hp GTX with rpm int a 286"fl hyd HE cam std longblock with headers 750 annular carb . I drilled taped the carb just like in Drews picture to get a desired calibration and this was set up with a wide band AF/R meter ended up with 0.031 IFR, 0.073 IAB ,0.070 Tslr
0.098 holes in pri plates,drilled and tapped for a mec choke as well. sweet spot on timing was 16 initial welded up slots in dizzy to bring timing to 36 total and a wire to restrict dizzy vac to 10" vac advance and vacuum on dizzy adjusted to com in on 10 HG and and off cause goose away at 10 HG just before real engine load and powervalve opening at 8,5 HG
All this parts was certainly not chosen by me just helping a kid that did a wonderfully restoration of a musclecar, and tuning what it had.
This was what suited dis particularly engin trans conv rear end gearing and every car is different you just have to ask the combo that you have what it likes.
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Tobbemek,
Thanks for the note - I was able to make out most of it, but what the heck is Tsl?
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tsl= transfer slot.
On larger carbs you sometimes need to drill/tap and make a restriction for them.
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tsl= transfer slot.
On larger carbs you sometimes need to drill/tap and make a restriction for them.
Thanks Drew, didn't expect translation services as part of the bargain.
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Paul,
I noticed in the other thread they you said you are running a Holley Blue.
What do you have it regulated to?
(I get best results with the center hung float Holley's to be about 6-7psi and the side hung to be 4.5-5.5psi)
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The fuel pressure is regulated to 7 psi. I had to replace the regulator that came with it as it kept creeping up to 10-12. The new regulator has been pretty consistent.
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On your transfer slots, I start out with the back looking square and the front about .030 exposed. Run it and if I have to idle up very much, I'll open the back about 1/8 turn on the adjustment and back down the front. Also, most times on 4 corner idle the screws are maybe 1/4~3/8 turn out - rarely more than 1/2 turn.
I never drill the plates. The dragster motor has near .700 lift and a lot of duration, idles good at 1200. No holes.
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I cut open the filter and pulled out the media. I has about 30 minutes of running time on the oil and filter. It was pretty clean, maybe 6 or 7 little spots of dirt and one very small metal flake.
Sadly I can't post images directly to this forum, and Photobucket isn't feeling well today, so I can't post the pictures. I'm not afraid of a more serious problem with that tick (almost a knocking sound at idle), and it sounds like it is timed to a valve or rocker. It is a bit odd that it shows up when the engine is warm, but it becomes a little quieter when the heads are filled with oil. I am not concerned about a bad rod bearing based on what is in the oil filter.
Next, mark the screw position, make sure the choke is out of play, put the carb back, and see how it runs with no PCV or vacuum advance.
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Wish FB was working as I could show you pics of the two 1850's that were on the Willys when I started on the 427 car 3 yrs ago. Someone had tried to "tune" it. Ya, they had it all screwed up(literally). I found their fix for the open holes on the throttle blades when that failed to help. They just put some sheetmetal screws up from the bottom!!!! :o Ya, heaven forbid they came loose as the motor would eat them in a heartbeat.
I tore the carbs down, replaced the blades, rejetted them to stock, flat filed all the surfaces and bolted them back on. Few a few quick turns of the mixture screws, it was running/idling perfectly. Ugh.
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you sure that ticking aint an exhaust leak.i had a small hole in my header in a spot where you could not see it till i took the header off.i would have bet money i had a medal to medal tick
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The tick is from under the rocker. I had header leaks last year and this is different.
Phototbucket seems to be feeling better (if you follow down the pleat from my thumb on the second image, near the bottom you can see the fleck of metal):
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/410dyno/IMG_3164.jpg)
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/410dyno/IMG_3165.jpg)
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Small progress. Got the carb back on, it started pretty quickly and ran it a few minutes until it was warm and would hold idle at around 750.
Got the timing up to 18 degrees, it was holding the idle a little higher - up around 1,000, and vacuum was up just under 10 inches. I don't know how accurate the gauge is so I'll call it 10. Turned all the mixture screws in 1/4 and the vacuum fell back to 8. Turned them back and got 10 again, turned them out a quarter and vacuum stayed close to 10 but idle fell back slightly and it was a bit rougher. Turned them back to about where they had been to start, and turned the idle screw back a bit (closing the primary) about 1/4 turn, and the idle fell back to around 8-900.
Tried shutting it off and restarting it a few times, now it isn't really hot in the video, but the run on is reduced significantly, and you can hear in the video that it kicks back a bit on the starter.
Now, I am actually a little concerned about driving it since I was at 35 degrees total advance before, and have now moved it up so it is probably just under 40. I know how to limit the total advance on the MSD "Doesn't want to Run" distributor, but on the old Ford I haven't looked into it.
What is the safe upper limit for total timing? I don't want to melt a hole through a piston at WOT. If it is risky I'll wait until the MSD comes back since the only guy I know who can re-curve a distributor is over an hour away.
https://youtu.be/Yo-pnGjKJLw (https://youtu.be/Yo-pnGjKJLw)
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I won't be driving it until I'm confident I won't hurt it, but for my next phase, I'm going to cut off the oil under the rockers and re-do the pre-load.
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The recurve guy isn't an hour away.... he is you.
To limit advance in a Ford style distributor requires a lil welding or jb weld.
The ones pictured below are a Duraspark but other types are roughly the same.
First remove the cap, than the reluctor (don't lose the roll pin). remove the vac advance arm E-clip and remove the whole vac advance assembly. There are two phillips head screws that hold the plate with pickup to the distributor. Remove it.
You'll be looking at this:
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i6/DeepRootsNursery/IMG_2183_zpscmvvllus.jpg)
There is an annoying clip that holds the advance mechanism in place. Remove it. Also remove the two springs.
Your advance arm will be stamped. The one in this picture is 21L which means 42 degrees of advance. (I know)
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i6/DeepRootsNursery/IMG_2184_zpsxzvm7cjy.jpg)
On the other side will be another size slot. With centrifugal force the spring tension is finally overcome and the arm moves between that pin in the center. The size of this slot determines total mechanical advance.
I remove the whole arm assembly and weld it up.
This is the worst weld you'll ever see:
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i6/DeepRootsNursery/IMG_2194_zpsoiielitj.jpg)
I've also welded them up entirely prior to cutting the slot
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i6/DeepRootsNursery/IMG_1503_zpsygvvafud.jpg)
Use an angle grinder, die grinder, whatever to cut the slot you need. In the case of BBM heads if you want 18 degrees of advance, and 34 total you'd want an 8L or 16 degrees of mechanical advance. 18initial + 16 mechanical = 34 total (for the record with your setup I think I'd be more at 20initial 32 total, but whatever)
This would be achieved with a .350 size slot, like this one:
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i6/DeepRootsNursery/IMG_1508_zpshix9pvrm.jpg)
Sometimes there is a lil rubber cover on the advance pin, this obviously changes your full mechanical a small amount.
See the rubber bushing on the advance pin in this picture below with the welded/ground slot all installed.
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i6/DeepRootsNursery/IMG_2196_zpsbxn4np8k.jpg)
You could do the same with JB weld I assume..... I dunno I have a mig welder, so that is what I do.
Drew
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Very interesting. I don't weld, haven't since high school, but JB Weld is possible, I also know people who weld. Questions, first, I assume the 21L side is not important since the other side is what is providing the limit of movement.
If we mess with the other side, and I note you welded the whole slot and then cut the new slot, I assume the position of the slot matters - that is to say it has to start at a specific point and then the cut carries on for a specific distance. How do you find the right spot to start cutting?
If I want 32 to 33 degrees total timing and 20 degrees initial, how do you determine the width of the slot? I see you say .350 equals 16 degrees, I assume it is simple arithmetic that .2625 equals 12 degrees (.350/16*12) if I want 20 and 12 for 32 total.
I can see why MSD went a different way, but I'd rather not wait so may have a go at this.
And again, thanks for the detailed tutorial. I assume you think running it with 38 degrees even for a short period is a bad idea.
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Very interesting. I don't weld, haven't since high school, but JB Weld is possible, I also know people who weld. Questions, first, I assume the 21L side is not important since the other side is what is providing the limit of movement.
Another option is just making a bushing for the center pin to limit total travel.
I see no reason JB weld wouldn't work, and have heard others doing it. I'm normally doing this to someone elses engine and don't feel like waiting for jb weld to cure, so there is that. Yes, you only use one side so the other side doesn't matter. On other projects I've jb welded stuff and set it on cardboard. after it dries, just razor the part off and use a flap wheel to clean everything up, no problems. This is also a good time to clean and oil everything. I find on most of the old stock Ford engines that people bring around the mechanical advance is sticky and sometimes doesn't even work. Old grease, dust, grit gets stuck. I take it all apart and work it with oil until it spins with no effort.
If we mess with the other side, and I note you welded the whole slot and then cut the new slot, I assume the position of the slot matters - that is to say it has to start at a specific point and then the cut carries on for a specific distance. How do you find the right spot to start cutting?
The springs will pull it back so the *exact* start point isn't 100% critical. That said, I measure that section prior to welding and try my best to get it back to the same size after cutting.
If I want 32 to 33 degrees total timing and 20 degrees initial, how do you determine the width of the slot? I see you say .350 equals 16 degrees, I assume it is simple arithmetic that .2625 equals 12 degrees (.350/16*12) if I want 20 and 12 for 32 total.
.268 or therebouts for 12 degrees. As stated, the bushing on the stop pin and wear can change this slightly since we are dealing with something so small. For changing where the advance comes it, it's simply a matter of swapping some springs around and bending the spring tabs to add or subtract the rpm in which the arm starts to move. It'd be nice if I bought a distributor machine, but I have done this many many times ON the engine to test. Most times I wind up pretty darn close the first time, but you may have to remove the advance arm once or twice to get everything 100% perfect (especially where the advance happens). Thankfully with a Duraspark there is a cut out in the plate that goes over all of this so you can move the spring tab a little with everything assembled and just the dist cap off.
I can see why MSD went a different way, but I'd rather not wait so may have a go at this.
Yeah, the msd bushing is nice, and it's all right on top for you to adjust. I have only messed with a few dozen of those, but kinda wish they made a ton more bushings :P Even the biggest, high dollar MSD comes with a stupid timing curve and needs to be adjusted. Normally I wouldn't bother explaining this stuff or linking photos, but you seem to want to tinker, and I'm all for that sort of behavior.
And again, thanks for the detailed tutorial. I assume you think running it with 38 degrees even for a short period is a bad idea.
It's certainly not a good idea..... I would think you'd start finding some aluminum specks on your spark plugs after a few hard runs.
Ohh and please ignore some of the people on the FTE forum (where you have an ongoing thread), some of them are giving iffy advice.
For more info, Scotty at Reincarnation (really a great dude) wrote this some years ago:
http://www.reincarnation-automotive.com/Duraspark_distributor_recurve_instructions_index.html
Dp
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Drew, thanks. I do want to tinker. The whole point of doing this was to get into the nitty gritty. I'll start taking the dizzy apart today.
You are right about the FTE forum. The best advice I get over there is on sourcing parts. Bill, known as NumberDummy, is unbelievable at finding old Ford parts. I got the LAST NOS bushing in the world for my power steering bracket with his help. Best part, it cost me $5 plus postage from Texas. I am also looking at some advice on replacing the power brake booster and master cylinder to go to a smaller booster, and ways to get front discs on my beast.
With this engine drum brakes and a weak vacuum resulted in some long stopping distances.
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Easiest front disc swap I've done is just stealing the parts from a 73-79 truck.
I normally just take both Ibeams (really it's just a couple bolts and is nicer than beating on kingpins in a junkyard).
I refuse to run bourgeois things like power brakes, so can't help ya there. Numberdummy is pretty great at that. He's not so great at "out of the box" thinking and has told me I'm doing everything wrong because I sometimes make my own parts :P
(My user name is DeepRoots over there)
I love the nitty gritty. Minus shortblocks (machine shop tools are a lil expensive) I do everything on my old stuff. I especially like carburetors and transmissions.
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I agree - NumberDummy is very much a factor parts guy. Still, when you need one he is an incredible resource.
The manual brakes on the truck were pretty hard to use, compounded by the pedal positions I really felt the need for some boost. Same with the manual steering - put an old style hydraulic ram set up on it from a 73. With the original tires it was tolerable, but with the big boots it was a monster to steer at low speeds.
No I-beams, I have an open knuckle Dana 44 to contend with, so the swap is a little more complex.
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Is this an F100 or F250? I believe that on the 1/2 ton D44s that the conversion kit you can purchase for early Broncos is a bolt on, although I haven't done it. Not cheap but not crazy either for all new parts. I do plan on doing it on my 71, the drum brakes, even with the uber-bourgeois dual diaphragm booster and Chebby master, can get a bit sporty with a deep breathing 445. :)
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I agree - NumberDummy is very much a factor parts guy. Still, when you need one he is an incredible resource.
The manual brakes on the truck were pretty hard to use, compounded by the pedal positions I really felt the need for some boost. Same with the manual steering - put an old style hydraulic ram set up on it from a 73. With the original tires it was tolerable, but with the big boots it was a monster to steer at low speeds.
No I-beams, I have an open knuckle Dana 44 to contend with, so the swap is a little more complex.
The bump side power brake boosters are small enough to allow tall FE valve covers R&R. I guesstimated a 20% shorter stopping distance from 120 to 0 when I did the factory 1973 disk on my 2wd I-Beam 65 F100. It still had some brake fade around 50 mph to 0 but not as bad as the drums did. The 73 backing plates were deeper and if I remember correctly used 3 1/2" shoes. I never toyed with an adjustable proportioning valve but easing some pressure the HAND operated parking brake gave the truck more stopping power.
The widest tire I have ran lately without power steering is 235. Trick is to keep the tire rolling. Even 1/4" a second on pavement and you can whip the wheel one handed. The 65 17" steering wheel helps to.
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the drum brakes, even with the uber-bourgeois dual diaphragm booster and Chebby master, can get a bit sporty with a deep breathing 445. :)
those are drum brakes tho.... disc/drum setup with manual master is pretty freaking awesome.
I have this setup on my daily driver F100 and my 63.5 which also has a 445. Only time I've ever seen this setup suck is with a stock convertor as it's annoying to hold the brake down at a redlight, but who runs a stock convertor? :P
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the drum brakes, even with the uber-bourgeois dual diaphragm booster and Chebby master, can get a bit sporty with a deep breathing 445. :)
those are drum brakes tho.... disc/drum setup with manual master is pretty freaking awesome.
I have this setup on my daily driver F100 and my 63.5 which also has a 445. Only time I've ever seen this setup suck is with a stock convertor as it's annoying to hold the brake down at a redlight, but who runs a stock convertor? :P
I was just teasing, my Mustang is manual disc, no issues at all.
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The bump side power brake boosters are small enough to allow tall FE valve covers R&R. I guesstimated a 20% shorter stopping distance from 120 to 0 when I did the factory 1973 disk on my 2wd I-Beam 65 F100. It still had some brake fade around 50 mph to 0 but not as bad as the drums did. The 73 backing plates were deeper and if I remember correctly used 3 1/2" shoes. I never toyed with an adjustable proportioning valve but easing some pressure the HAND operated parking brake gave the truck more stopping power.
The widest tire I have ran lately without power steering is 235. Trick is to keep the tire rolling. Even 1/4" a second on pavement and you can whip the wheel one handed. The 65 17" steering wheel helps to.
It is an F100 4WD with the flareside, interesting point - only 465 made in '69. I had to put a smaller steering wheel in to clear the bench seat I put in it. Didn't like the buckets because they sat so low my knees were near my ears. Yes a little roll helps, but with the 15 inch wheel there ain't no palming going on.
The booster out of the doner truck doesn't leave much room:
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/410dyno/IMG_3090_1.jpg)
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The bump side power brake boosters are small enough to allow tall FE valve covers R&R. I guesstimated a 20% shorter stopping distance from 120 to 0 when I did the factory 1973 disk on my 2wd I-Beam 65 F100. It still had some brake fade around 50 mph to 0 but not as bad as the drums did. The 73 backing plates were deeper and if I remember correctly used 3 1/2" shoes. I never toyed with an adjustable proportioning valve but easing some pressure the HAND operated parking brake gave the truck more stopping power.
The widest tire I have ran lately without power steering is 235. Trick is to keep the tire rolling. Even 1/4" a second on pavement and you can whip the wheel one handed. The 65 17" steering wheel helps to.
It is an F100 4WD with the flareside, interesting point - only 465 made in '69. I had to put a smaller steering wheel in to clear the bench seat I put in it. Didn't like the buckets because they sat so low my knees were near my ears. Yes a little roll helps, but with the 15 inch wheel there ain't no palming going on.
The booster out of the doner truck doesn't leave much room:
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/410dyno/IMG_3090_1.jpg)
Is that a 7" booster? I had stamped steel Ford MotorSports and M/T HP 427 valve covers. Yours look taller.
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Those hydrobosters or what they are called
that you feed from the P/S pump
are pretty small i diameter
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Is that a 7" booster? I had stamped steel Ford MotorSports and M/T HP 427 valve covers. Yours look taller.
I think that is bigger than 7 inches, but I'm too lazy to go out and measure it right now. Probably an 8. The covers are Anson cast aluminium.
I had standard Ford stamped tin ones before, but on those valve covers the breather was on the front of the driver side cover, so it didn't really interfere. I do remember that I originally intended to use a set of Mercury covers since the last engine was a 410, but they were the pent style and didn't clear the booster.
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The 69 F100 OEM booster I had was 7" on disc. That may not be the case in all applications.
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Chris - I took it off a 40 year old truck. Who is to say what it really came off. We just used it cause it worked.
There is a good thread over on the FTE forum about putting a late model Explorer master cylinder and generic 7 inch booster on to an old F100. It looks pretty tidy and if I figure out the disc thing I think I may go that route. Opinions of my masculinity be damned.
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Chris - I took it off a 40 year old truck. Who is to say what it really came off. We just used it cause it worked.
There is a good thread over on the FTE forum about putting a late model Explorer master cylinder and generic 7 inch booster on to an old F100. It looks pretty tidy and if I figure out the disc thing I think I may go that route. Opinions of my masculinity be damned.
HaHa, can't speak for the others but I did swaps simular to yours. Went to late model cars and trucks. Now 25+ years latter I am right back to where I started at 16 where two speed wipers were a luxury.
According to Drew's view of power brakes it is befitting that I pulled mine off the F100. As the middle class disappears so should our luxuries.
WORD OF THE DAY: bour·geois
bo͝orˈZHwä,ˈbo͝orZHwä/Submit
adjective
1.
of or characteristic of the middle class, typically with reference to its perceived materialistic values or conventional attitudes.
"a rich, bored, bourgeois family"
synonyms: middle-class, propertied; More
noun
1.
a bourgeois person.
"a self-confessed and proud bourgeois"
synonyms: member of the middle class, property owner
"a proud bourgeois"
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Here is mine, it was under 100 bucks off Ebay, master cylinder included. Lines worked fine but had to switch the line nuts front to back. No adapter fittings required.
(http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd329/My427stang/Booster._zpshoqdkey6.jpeg)
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According to Drew's view of power brakes it is befitting that I pulled mine off the F100. As the middle class disappears so should our luxuries.
hehehe :P
At some point someone will invent air conditioning for cars and trucks, and do away with roll up windows. We'll be in trouble at that point and won't be able to afford new vehicles. Good thing that isn't a reality yet.
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I still have to get over losing the "no draft" windows. Where are you supposed to flick your cigar ash?
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The loss of vent windows.................the downfall of mankind............ ;)
That is why I like my '95 F150. Still have vent windows! Along with my '69 F100, my '64 Galaxies, and my '59 Mack.
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Lucky me.... I can just ash on the floor and no one would notice.
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Fair bit of mine ends up there, combination of bouncy ride, old farmer 4-speed, and not very precise steering means I often don't quite get around to flicking soon enough. It is a truck, don't matter how shiny.
Still nice to have the option.
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Huge winds and rain blew through here yesterday, will start it and advance to 20 today and see what it does to the vacuum.
When it warms up a bit I'll start the truck and try the timing out at 20 degrees. If I like the idle and vacuum I'll modify the distributor from there. I went back through my notes and the distributor as it sits has 21 degrees of mechanical advance, so that would make 41 degrees if I don't change it.
At 20 degrees, if I want 12 degrees of mechanical advance for a total advance of 32, I'll need a slot of .26 inches.
I am curious about one thing - I understand the big block GMs like total advance in the high 30's. I also understand that if combustion starts too early it will both get too hot and press back on the face of the piston too hard and risk blowing a hole. Too late and the piston will be moving away and peak compression will be lost.
Why do the GMs like more advance than the Fords? This is just me wondering.
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Why do the GMs like more advance than the Fords? This is just me wondering.
The amount of advance any engine runs best at involves lots of variables, the key one being the design, hence the efficiency, of the combustion chamber (head and piston). Generally, the better the design, the less advance is needed. 'Course the type of fuel, the amount of quench, engine rpms and more also come into play.
Can't say the BBC's in particular run more than FE's or some other big blocks. We used to race a well-built BBC (std. stroke 427 +.030, open chamber steel L-88 heads, 13.6 c/r) and never went over 40-42 total timing, even on 108 octane race gas.
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Last TP engine I did liked 41° total. Last 427 MR liked 40°.
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Depends of a lot of things going on combustion wise mostly the chape of the combustion chamber. what it needs and then der is to consider what type of fuel octan you use if it can tolerate de advance you are looking for. low octane fuel burns faster then high octane
There is a disadvantage to use higher octane fuel then needed. One should always try to get as fast as possible burn in the cylinder, a slower burn is a waist of power vs a fast burn.
Go in to BBM heads site an look at the head comparison Blair did on a 390 Cj heads vs BBM heads and see the difference in total advance and watt he say about it.
google 101 NASCAR engine on you tube if you have time its very educating at least i think.
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Personally I do not think running at 38 total will hurt you. I've gone that far and more tuning on stuff here without issue - just keep an eye on the plugs. If you hear it rattle you let go of the gas pedal - you'd need to be pretty brutal to get it to fail a piston on part throttle rides around the block working out driveability stuff. Drive it, tune it, and chase the "perfect" part once you're doing OK at all the other places.
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Barry - what am I looking for on the plugs?
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Not Barry, but I do have a B in my name!
Here you go: https://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%20Basics%20Root%20Folder/Reading%20Spark%20Plugs.html
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Just to complicate it a little :D
http://gallery.myff.org/gallery/1486369/Sparkplug+reading.pdf
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I should have been more specific. Since I'm too lazy right now to go and read all the stuff I have on how to read plugs - i.e. all the symptom cross referenced to the causes - I was hoping just for the thing that tells me I'm too advanced and about to blow up my engine!
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Just do like Barry suggested. Get the initial timing right first together with idle carb calibration light grandma driving and cruising figured out first
and KEEP YOUR FOOT OUT OF IT before you decide how much mechanical advance and total advance you need and it will be just fine.
You can not heart your engine with 40 -45 total advance with out loading it remember the vac advance will take most engines to 50 and more in very light cruise
A modern GT 500 Shelby Mustang can have over 50¤ advance just over idle and super lean AF/R but as son as you demand something of it the timing retards significant and AF/R goes richer
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32 is safe..... fine tuning can come later and you can push the envelope.
Barry, you ran 38 with BBM heads and it was what that engine wanted?
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Not with BBM heads. But I have been to 40 with mine, and it has a pretty darn good chamber. It did not detonate to death or anything, but I have done plenty of them and always tried 36 to 38 trying to find that sweet spot.
You already know this - but for the benefit of those who are just reading along - - just because the best place might be at 32 or 34 does not mean that it's so fragile that a short run to a higher range will result in destruction. The best place is what the engine wants, and is dependent upon much more than just the heads/chamber. You really will not know until you try it, and two degrees beyond the ideal should not be "blow up parts instantly, deadly critical" in a street combination. You try it, you listen, and you look at the plugs (or the time slip).
The compression ratio, cam, intake, short block all have an impact on fuel tolerance and timing demand. A longer runner small cross section intake path will build more cylinder pressure around torque peak than a lazier package would, and would want less timing. Its one of the gripes I have with relying too much on dynamic compression ratio calculations - because they ignore cylinder filling, chamber shapes, intake designs, piston dome configurations and such. DCR is a useful directional tool, but not something to optimize around unless you have historical experience with a given combination to know where things want to be.
Reading plugs for detonation is in some ways easier than reading for fuel mixture. You are looking for little pepper specks - tiny purplish balls - that will form on the white porcelain of the plug nose. No pepper - no likely damage. If you hear rattling or breaking up - let off the throttle right now. No rattle and no pepper - try another degree or two if the performance seems to have improved from the previous effort. If performance drops off or stays the same there is obviously no reason to look further or push harder in that direction. Some folks believe that the color change on the plug's ground strap should occur right at the bend when timing is best. I always look at it because I read the same internet stuff as everybody else, but my dyno and the color of the strap do not seem to agree all the time - so I believe the dyno and look at everything else for verification.
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I've had pretty good luck with reading the strap to get close on the total timing. I have had some situations though where the engine made the best horsepower on the dyno with a certain timing spec, but was a little lazy at the track in comparison to another setting.
Basically, you just try different stuff and see what works. (Plus, the ground strap on an Autolite X plug is a little hard to read....)
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I agree with Drew 32 is safe
When i do tuneups for customer and often there is a cost limit and time is money. First thing to do fore me is "Mapping" the carb so i know what direction it supposedly has to go in calibration then then sett the proper transferslott opening on pri side. After that i figure out the initial advance by looking on Vacuum readings at idle, high as possible with no misfiring and no starting problem when hot.
then i take a qualified guess depending on type of engine, heads, comp, cam,and so on and restrict the mec advance in dizzy and if the soft spring
has a little problem to pull weights back properly in idle ( erratic ) initial timing readings i often weld up the slot a little on low side first to get just a little more spring tension.( its not all dist you have acses to bend a spring tab after its back in the engine )That will also delay the advance just a tad. this is something i decide playing with idle and of idle how quick or lazy the advance response is. Very often the dizzy looks terrible inside weights and reluctor rusty and weights not moving freely and that can explain the erratic behavior of the timing. Any way i have a god idea of what it needs for a initial setting and in your case i would have sett the total advance to 32¤ there is allot of experienced people on here that showed us best performance with BBM heads is just about right there 32-33¤ total advance. the last couple of degrees of timing you can decide up on later testing
After the timing is settled its time to start calibrating the carb because fuel delivery in idle and light throttle is depending up on intake vacuum your fine tune calibration will go out the dor if you fiddles with timing after carb calibration, and a right fine tuned idle surcuite needs allot of vac-advance to burn properly.when that is done Next step is to de term what power valve opening point you need and like Barry sated in his post about timing goose for carb calibration as well you have to take a swing in both directions to find a sweet spot but more with main jetting than idle jets,Tslr and IA. There you go to to lean and find where the engine starts to surge and go back up a little richer to find the sweet spot.
Same thing with pri main jets and power valve opening point find to lean surge and go back up to perfect running.
For a daily driver or a cruiser this is for me very vital to get sorted out real close to optimal before ultimate WOT performance testing inkl sec main jets and pri powervalve restrictions.
This is just how i do it, others has theirs way to perform a proper tune up and remember a universal carburetor is nothing but just universal calibrated and most of the time takes allot of idle sercuite calibration to suit your specific combo. The old style Holleys useley is allot closer in that term then the new HP and ultra stuff.
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Drew, I quite agree to your post on FTE. I put things up there for a few folks who are in a similar position - in fact you offered some help to one of them today. He is a good guy.
So I got motivated and went and started the truck, checked the timing and it had regressed - the timing demon that caused me to go to the MSD distributor was back. The advance when I locked it down last was around 18, now it was back down around 16 or so, and the vacuum was back at around 6 inches.
I loosened the clamp, turned it up to 20, then 22, and at 22 I was loosing RMP and vacuum, so went back to 20 and locked it down. I was by myself so I don't know the RPM, but with the light on the timing marks I gave it throttle until the timing stopped moving and it seems to be around 35 degrees, so I'm not too worried about driving it. Took it for a short spin and the drivability is reasonable.
I closed the throttle screw a little more to get the idle down to 850-900 as it had crept up to 1,000 again, but then I killed it and started it a few times. Twice I saw it turn the engine backwards. Each time it had turned backwards it took additional cranks to start - I assume this is because it had expelled exhaust gasses into the intake and it had to flush. In the video you can see it turn backwards. Is this something I should worry about? Otherwise, fairly warm it started easily enough.
https://youtu.be/jDbAYbCMQOo (https://youtu.be/jDbAYbCMQOo)
I'm curious about this - I assumed the pushrods got longer when hot and tended to get tighter, i.e. increase the tendency to hang the valves. Called T&D for their advice about oiling, in addition to confirming that I should have either pushrod or oil passage oiling, but not both, I asked about the tick. He said it would get worse when warm.
I see there is another thread asking about the size of the oil passage on BBM heads, what I notice is there is a difference between mine. On one the restrictor dropped all the way down the passage, on the other side it got caught at the top and stopped. I'll have to try and get a dimension when the rocker stands are off.
If I can get it to run quietly I'll get someone to help with the throttle and watch the tach - keeping it around 4,000 rpm, and I'll confirm what the max timing gets too. Hope I can find the T&D installation instructions - they only have the race version on their website.
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It's bizarre your timing changes between runs. I haven't had that issue.
(I will mention again that some guns aren't friendly with msd boxes, I have chased my tail with that).
Sounds like 18-20 is your happy place for initial.
Your continued run on/wants to turn backwards on shut down can be caused by a few things.
-Idle too high
-lean causing hot spots in cylinder (possible minor vacuum leak?)
those are the most common. Start simple, drop the idle rpm 100 or so and see how it feels. If your primaries are set perfect on the slot just drop the secondaries down a lil.
I've heard people say this "pushrod gets longer" thing before.
Which do you think grows more, the steel pushrod or the aluminum heads and rockers? :)
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I'll fiddle with the carb a little more to reduce the idle. I will also look for leaks.
The drift on timing was happening before we added the MSD box, and I think it is binding in the vacuum pot/connection to the base plate in the distributor. We noticed last year that tapping on it made the timing move as much as 5 degrees. I think it may have been some advance trapped in the vacuum pot when I removed the vacuum hose. I don't expect it to come back when I start it again since the vacuum advance is not in the equation at the moment. This is why I decided to go MSD (sigh).
Steel pushrods vs aluminum - interesting question. Two side by side rods of equal length, clearly aluminum will expand more (coefficient is almost twice that of steel). But we have on solid rod about 8 inches long compared to an iron block and a couple of inches of aluminum head and rocker, and gaps that allow expansion in two directions. Not really able to do that kind of modelling in my head. Or on a computer. I think that is why Ford had so many engineers. I'll listen to my betters on this and just be a tad more aggressive setting the pre-load.
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There is another way around the "dieseling" problem on hot soaked shut down. If you are happy with curent idle speed and throttle position
get your self a AC idle solenoid find a good used one and fabricate a bracket to fit your carb,int,gas linkeach.or bay a new for ca 100$ with bracket
and then close down your pri throttle blades and" whalla" dieselproblem gon now you can have yuor idle to what ever suits your combo.
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I'll listen to my betters on this and just be a tad more aggressive setting the pre-load.
With a SFT cam, iron block, aluminum heads it's customary to decrease lash .006 to allow for the extra cylinder head growth. (head grows, which puts rockers further from the pushrod, so you set it up tighter)
If you think the distributor itself is moving and that is the loss of set timing, try clamping the distributor better (I use a stud instead of a bolt) or take a punch and make some small light marks where the clamp goes to help grip it.
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Drew,
I don't think it is the distributor moving, I think it was in the vacuum pot or its connection to the base plate. I will watch it and see. If it moves again I'll suspect that it is the whole distributor. A stud and nut is a good option.
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Drew,
I don't think it is the distributor moving, I think it was in the vacuum pot or its connection to the base plate. I will watch it and see. If it moves again I'll suspect that it is the whole distributor. A stud and nut is a good option.
At times old ignition will run points fine but can't handle the load of a Duraspark box. I have had timing moving around at idle and very little timing gain with some rpms. Your MSD box could have the same problem. See if it stabilizes when wired directly to the battery.
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I took it out for a dive today, about 40 minutes total. A few open throttle shots but mostly moving along in light traffic.
It is civilized to drive, but two things continue to annoy (aside from the fact that it is ticking like a cheap sewing machine) - the timing was back around 16 when I started it and let it run long enough to settle down and hold an idle. I'm not running any choke so I have to stay on the throttle to keep it up around 1,000. With it lumping along at 500 rpm I went and got the light. Back down to around 16 degrees. Released the clamp, turned it back so I could just see the "2" under the mark, and idle came up to around 800. It was fairly quiet, so drove it over to my brother's and back. I needed someone on the throttle who could watch the tach - and it never went over 35 degrees, so I think I'm fine to leave that alone.
By the time I got to his house the idle had crept back up to 1,000. This is annoying, so I'm going to go and buy a nice large baking tin so I can lift the carb off without getting gas all over, and see what the plates look like.
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check your carb gasket , had similar problem , idled well until engine warmed up good and then the idle would go up ,after a lot of grief , changed the gasket , solved the problem . just a thought .
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I did get the carb off yesterday - I haven't figured out how to adjust the rear plates without taking it off. Reduced both plates to just a tiny bit of exposed transfer slot.
Then I pulled the plugs in preparation for adjusting the preload and took this picture of the plugs:
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/410dyno/IMG_3177.jpg)
Some of them seem a little sooty. More variation than I expected but I'm really new to this.
On the preload I was surprised that I could rotate all the pushrods with my fingers, a few of them very easily. I backed off each screw, then turned them down until the pushrod would not rotate between my fingers (and could feel the screw engage the pushrod) then turned down one full turn and torqued the lock nut.
Haven't started it yet - ran out of time. I find it a real pain to keep a 15/16ths socket on the crank bolt to turn the engine - I put some duct tape on the bolt to hold the socket a little better but it is still a chore, makes it much slower going.
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Based on what you wrote, you may have adjusted the rockers incorrectly. Don't start it yet, you may damage parts! The pushrods may rotate in your fingers when properly adjusted on a hydraulic lifter engine. Rather than rotating the pushrods with your fingers, move them up and down as you tighten the adjustment, until the clearance is gone and they won't move up and down anymore, then go another 1/2 to 1 turn. If you adjust them as you described, you may have pushed the plunger seat in the hydraulic lifters all the way down, and possibly even left the valves hanging open.
As it is, if you did go far enough to bottom out the plunger in the lifters, you have forced all the oil out of the lifters, and they may clatter on startup until they fill up with oil again. If you can, pre-oil the engine before starting to eliminate this concern.
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Well, I haven't started it.
On each rocker I rotated until I saw the associated intake or exhaust drop. I then backed off the lock nut and threaded the adjustment screw out.
None of the pushrods showed up and down movement with the screw backed out. This seemed a little odd to me, in fact most of the pushrods were as loose before I backed off the screw as the were after. I recall that the last time I had some up and down movement.
In any case I turned the adjustment screw down just enough to feel the screw engage (beginning to feel resistance from the screw turning on the pushrod) and the pushrod began to resist rotating. In most cases this was 1/4 turn, then 1 full turn.
I could see all the rockers beginning to push down on the valve at 1 turn, but that is what I saw the last time.
Being a Canadian, took me a few minutes this morning to realize it is Memorial Day. We are the last country to celebrate Queen Victoria's birthday, and did so last Monday. Will have to wait till tomorrow to call T&D and get their instructions. What I've been fighting is alternating too tight (hanging valves) and too loose (ticking). Only ticks when fully warm/hot.
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Went back and looked at the instructions from Barry (on a previous thread about the hanging valve problem) and I think I followed them accurately, HOWEVER when Jay Brown warns me not to start my engine, I have to say I'm not starting that engine!
In the mean time, is there a better way to rotate the engine? I don't have an "under the hood" starter switch, but it might be worth getting one if you can use the starter.
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Maybe we can keep this more simple, because this is NOT a critical adjustment, but if way too tight, you can bent valves, pushrods, etc
1 - You need to be comfortable identifying the point where there is zero slop in the pushrod, lifter rocker path,
2 - After you get there, you compress the plunger .045-.060 more, by turning the adjustment farther in a fixed amount based on thread pitch.
It really isn't a critical measurement unlike a valve lash, you just need to not have slop and not go too deep.
I am not saying to do this, but think of how you adjust a Chevy. You let it idle, back one off until it clacks, slowly tighten until it JUST stops clacking, then go 1 turn more.
You are trying to do the same thing without it running, back off until slop, tighten until no slop, then 1 turn more or so.
The reason your procedure was confusing is because of you tightening it down until the valve opened, I "THINK" you just seated everything then backed off, but if you are too tight, things can hit
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None of the pushrods showed up and down movement with the screw backed out. This seemed a little odd to me, in fact most of the pushrods were as loose before I backed off the screw as the were after. I recall that the last time I had some up and down movement.
You should have up and down movement of the pushrods, essentially clearance, with the rocker adjusters backed all the way out. If you don't have that, there is some issue. I'd check that again. Especially if you had that clearance before.
Use a flashlight and try to see down below the intake, and look at the tops of the lifters. There are small clips that hold the lifter plunger in place, so that the plunger can only come up so far. I have seen cases where those clips have come out; then there is nothing stopping the lifter plunger from moving up farther than normal. If this happens to be the case with your engine, that would explain why you felt up and down movement previously, but you don't have that anymore; the lifter plunger just keeps coming up as the rocker adjustment gets looser. This is probably not the case with your engine but its worth looking at.
The reason for my caution is that I've seen on numerous occasions that spinning the pushrods between your thumb and forefinger while you tighten the rocker adjuster will give a false reading. If the lifter doesn't have oil in it for some reason, all you are doing is compressing the spring in the lifter body, and sometimes this does not impart enough force on the pushrod to make it feel any different as you are spinning it. So, pulling the pushrod up and down while you tighten the adjuster is the best way to do it, because then you have a positive indication that the clearance has gone away, when you can't feel that clearance anymore.
Hope that helps - Jay
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The reason for my caution is that I've seen on numerous occasions that spinning the pushrods between your thumb and forefinger while you tighten the rocker adjuster will give a false reading.
Ditto this. Even with a little pressure, a smooth mating surface between the pushrod and rockers/lifters can allow them to spin like there is clearance. Been fooled on that before.
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You should have up and down movement of the pushrods, essentially clearance, with the rocker adjusters backed all the way out. If you don't have that, there is some issue. I'd check that again. Especially if you had that clearance before.
Use a flashlight and try to see down below the intake, and look at the tops of the lifters. There are small clips that hold the lifter plunger in place, so that the plunger can only come up so far. I have seen cases where those clips have come out; then there is nothing stopping the lifter plunger from moving up farther than normal. If this happens to be the case with your engine, that would explain why you felt up and down movement previously, but you don't have that anymore; the lifter plunger just keeps coming up as the rocker adjustment gets looser. This is probably not the case with your engine but its worth looking at.
The reason for my caution is that I've seen on numerous occasions that spinning the pushrods between your thumb and forefinger while you tighten the rocker adjuster will give a false reading. If the lifter doesn't have oil in it for some reason, all you are doing is compressing the spring in the lifter body, and sometimes this does not impart enough force on the pushrod to make it feel any different as you are spinning it. So, pulling the pushrod up and down while you tighten the adjuster is the best way to do it, because then you have a positive indication that the clearance has gone away, when you can't feel that clearance anymore.
Hope that helps - Jay
Boy, you are full of good news!
On the happy side, I decided to do this to learn some new stuff, so I'm getting the opportunity. I'll go and start taking it apart again. Couple of questions, it takes me a huge amount of time to advance the motor and not that much time to do the adjustment. Can it be done by flicking the starter? If so I'll get an under the hood starter rigged up.
I may as well yank the rockers off to block the oil passages - I can get a better look down the pushrod holes if I can pull them. I'll check to make sure they are all straight while I'm at it.
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Sure, you can advance the engine by flicking the starter. It's easier with the plugs out, but not absolutely necessary. If you have a Ford starter on the fender you can also just short the terminal that the battery comes into with the closest small terminal, with a screwdriver, in a pinch. A starter button is easier though.
Good idea to check the pushrods...
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This morning I had one of my less bright moments. Had to move the truck into the driveway so I could pull the motorhome out of storage to do some work on it and get into a diesel shop on Monday.
It started but was running as badly as I've ever heard an engine. Shut it down right away and went and peered under the hood. After I did the preload adjustment last week I put the plugs back in and put the leads on the passenger side but was interrupted and forgot to put the driver's side on. Four cylinder FE bad idea.
Fired up fine after than and I got it into the drive way so I had the curb for the motorhome (42 feet, needs all of it).
Later in the day I got the passenger side valve cover off and pulled the rocker and pushrods. All straight - tested them on a piece of tempered glass that I then dropped while putting it away. Amazing how 1/4 inch drop can turn it into little tiny squares.
I'll be dealing with the oil restrictors and measuring a couple of other positions before I put it away, but using a measuring pushrod on the #1 exhaust I got 8.7385 inches. The actual pushrod is 8.7465. Seems to be reasonable.
Barry tells me the Morel lifters have between 120 and 150 thousands of travel, and 1 turn of the screw is a little more than 40 thousands, so the difference shouldn't be significant.
I did see a few witness marks on the pushrods, this is the worst - since I've never looked at pushrods that have been run I don't really know what to expect. You can see two parallel marks about 1/3 from the left of the visible rod.
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/410dyno/IMG_3187.jpg)
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That rub looks pretty insignificant. I wouldn't fret about it unless you see it start getting much worse.
If it makes you feel any better, about 35 years ago, I did a tune up on a friends 302 powered '70 fastback. We took it out for a drive and the car felt lazy. Lazier than usual with it's basically stock 302. Took it back to the house and popped the hood...and discovered the same thing you did. Forgot to put on one whole bank of plug wires. Yeah, pretty sure that just MAY have been the cause. ::) I was surprised it even ran, but the really odd part was how smooth the engine was. It didn't buck or shake, just sat there idling...like a 4 cylinder..lol
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i had 1 plug wire came off going down the highway and my 428 started backfiring out the mufflers,i guess that unburned gas in that cyl was igniting in the exhaust
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I was astonished it ran at all. Didn't backfire as it only ran a few seconds and the exhaust never got hot.
Will watch the weather for a good opportunity to get the other side apart and take a few other pushrod measurements, although I am now less concerned with my measuring skills and think my valve train issues are the result of my adjusting skills.
It was windy here today so I did everything quickly since the truck is outside and I don't want it full of dust.
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Winds were calmer today so I got a chance to get the other side off. Measured an intake lifter and found it to be 8.7255 compared to the pushrod length of 8.7465. I don't think it is a problem.
Having said that I found two of the pushrods had worse witness marks than the other side had.
I tried to find something that was a snug fit to the oil passage under the rocker stud, the only thing that would fit and was snug was a 3/16 allen key. Measured corner to corner it is 7/32s on a caliper. I could go and try and find a rod that length, but is there an reason I can put a little of the silicone I used on the intake in there? Since the two restrictors I have fell down the passage I am assuming there is lots of oil flow around them as well as through them.
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/410dyno/IMG_3216.jpg)
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/410dyno/IMG_3217.jpg)
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That's not a rub worth worrying about. I have had engines with a clearly visible 1/16 inch of clearance show rubs like that. Asked Kaase about that stuff once and he told me that a light rub was fine - calms things down when they vibrate. Most non-FE engines rub the pushrods on purpose - guide plates...
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I am with Barry, we build to not rub, but if the rub doesn't bind the play of rocker it's just acting like a guide plate. 460s, small blocks, Chebby's run all day long with built in contact
The second picture in this last pair looks a little odd, almost like damage or a pinch not rubbing, but I assume it's the camera
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You are right, it is the camera. Hard to get a picture of a curved surface, especially in direct sunlight.
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This is getting annoying. I got a nice calm day to put back the pushrods and rocker assemblies, and then started on re-doing the preload. The engine hasn't been run in over a week, so there is little oil in the top of the engine.
With the adjuster screws fully out the first two lifters seemed a bit mushy - I could push them down pretty far with my fingers although there was no free play. If I pressed on the rocker I could get an 1/8th of an inch of movement with no problem.
I adjusted them down one full turn from the top and moved on to cylinder 2. The video below shows the difference. With the adjuster full out, the cylinder 2 intake lifter has no free play at all and I can't even move it with the leverage of the allen key.
I stopped work on it because I don't understand what I'm seeing.
I used a switch to flick the starter and was setting the intake with the exhaust valve opening, and the exhaust with the intake valve closing.
https://youtu.be/frVZl7jj84w (https://youtu.be/frVZl7jj84w)
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Bought a $9 borescope on Amazon and tried to use it to inspect the lifters. You get what you pay for and I wound up laying a pad on top of the engine bay and laying down on it to look down the passages. Not easy since I'm 6'4" and 230 lbs, and I have a bad hip (not pretty either, I assume).
The pushrods are centered on the lifters, and when I rotate the engine with the starter while looking I don't see any strange behaviour.
Yet here I am - #1 intake and exhaust had fairly easy movement (as per the video) before and after preload adjustment. There was a tiny bit of free movement - less than 1/4 turn of the adjuster - and after that was taken up the rocker could be rocked backwards to compress the lifter with a finger. #2 exhaust was the same, but #2 intake and one of the #3 lifters (don't remember) have no movement. I can rotate the pushrod easily (not like a pushrod that is closing a valve), but NO up and down free movement and I can't rock the rocker backwards at all (this is with the adjuster turned all the way out).
On the #2 there is a no resistance to rotating the adjustment screw for the first 1/8 of a turn, then it starts to bind from pressure back from the pushrod.
I don't know what the heck to think. I have been turning the engine with the starter and have turned it over a dozen rotations in the past 24 hours, and today had some oil running down the rockers and springs. I can't imagine that there is so much oil pressure in those lifters that it is causing this.
I'm afraid to finish the assembly and restart it.
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So, if I understand correctly, you don't trust your valve adjustment.
If it was my job to do, normally I would use the EOIC method, but I think in your case it may be better to simplify
I would follow the firing order and bring each cylinder to TDC, but use a ratchet and a socket, turning the direction of engine rotation. With a street cam like that I cannot imagine any ramp issues. I do bump the starter for solids and for EOIC, but the more we can slow this down to a repeatable, by cylinder, process, the more I think you will be comfortable
Then take your time to get to zero lash on one rocker at a time. Make some slop, make it go away, doi it again, and teach yourself to feel for the slop, ignore all the other stuff like how squishy it feels, or how much resistance, just figure out how to feel when there is more space available than there is pushrod length, then learn to make that go away. Yearn to be able to say this "I am positive that there is zero slop between the rocker and pushrod and top of the lifter, but the plunger is not compressed"
THEN, when you are confident, for THAT rocker, add a careful and measured full turn of the wrench and hold the wrench as you tighten the lock nut and go to the next one.
Each rocker, you will get better at feeling it. Remember this is preload and it has a window of "good enough" Do one, turn the motor by hand, and do the next until you get to #8
Remember, if you are cranking and there is oil pressure, some lifters will be in a position to fill and have little spring pressure, others will have pushed the oil out and maybe not refilled, so ignore all that and just think "available space for the pushrod"
The last thing I'd say is maybe it's time to dump the adjustables and go factory style. You likely will NEVER have to adjust again, so you could just set up for factory, sell off your stuff and build an uber-reliable system. FWIW, I am doing a 10.25:1 396 with a stout little hyd cam and I have no intent to deal with adjustable rockers, it could be an easy way for you to sleep at night LOL
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On the #2 there is a no resistance to rotating the adjustment screw for the first 1/8 of a turn, then it starts to bind from pressure back from the pushrod.
Pretty sure that the difference you are seeing between the lifters is that some of them are filled with oil and some aren't. Try this: Tighten down the adjustment screw on one of the ones that won't turn down, maybe go 1 turn, give it half an hour, and then back it off to the original position. If you can then retighten it 1 turn without the pressure you felt before, then that's the issue. The valve spring pressure has forced the oil out of the lifter as far as you've gone on the adjustment. Seeing some of the lifters retain oil like this is not abnormal, so don't worry about it.
If after backing it off it is still difficult to tighten down, then you may be at the bottom of the travel for that lifter. In that case you'd want to back it off a couple turns, and if its still not springy, when you push down on the rocker, that plunger might be bottomed out and stuck in the lifter. Not likely with new lifters, I don't think...
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Ross/Jay - thanks for the advice.
I get that I want "zero slop" and the mushiness is not the issue, Ross thanks for putting it so clearly. The problem is that I'm starting with zero slop on two lifters and not sure where to start the pre-load because I can't tell if the lifter is compressed. Jay, I will try as you suggest to press some oil out of the lifter and re-gain the mushy feel. I did turn the engine so the #2 intake valve is open, so max spring pressure was on the lifter but I didn't leave it there. What I think I'll do is leave it in that position for a few hours and see the lifter bleeds down.
To be clear, I have all the adjustment screws full turned out to start (however I've done the pre-load on #1 intake and exhaust, and #2 exhaust so they are down a little more than one turn).
If the plunger was at the bottom of the lifter and stuck I would have the opposite problem - too much free movement of the pushrod. With the adjustment screw out all the way I have no free movement, and the lifter is as hard as a rock.
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Ross/Jay - thanks for the advice.
I get that I want "zero slop" and the mushiness is not the issue, Ross thanks for putting it so clearly. The problem is that I'm starting with zero slop on two lifters and not sure where to start the pre-load because I can't tell if the lifter is compressed. Jay, I will try as you suggest to press some oil out of the lifter and re-gain the mushy feel. I did turn the engine so the #2 intake valve is open, so max spring pressure was on the lifter but I didn't leave it there. What I think I'll do is leave it in that position for a few hours and see the lifter bleeds down.
To be clear, I have all the adjustment screws full turned out to start (however I've done the pre-load on #1 intake and exhaust, and #2 exhaust so they are down a little more than one turn).
If the plunger was at the bottom of the lifter and stuck I would have the opposite problem - too much free movement of the pushrod. With the adjustment screw out all the way I have no free movement, and the lifter is as hard as a rock.
I guess what I am trying to say is that if you know you are zero for a single valve, then preload is mathematical based on thread pitch. Don't even think about it, true zero + 1 turn, you are done, or likely 1.25 turns I think on an FE. Also remember it is preload, which has a wide range of good enough, it is not bearing clearance or ring gap, nor is it a tuning tool.
THEN when all 16 are done, start it, if a lifter is stuck, you'll have a skip, if not, you are done. I am trying to say the critical part is the zero lash, then it's just a turn of the adjuster and learn from what the engine does.
My thought is you are trying to measure and analyze something precisely that doesn't need to be, and cannot be precisely measured with the intake on anyway. Your comments on squish and resistance are just confusing you IMHO
Additionally, if all of them end up in the same place in terms of threads showing on the adjuster (or at least all the intakes match each other and same for exhaust) you have a warm fuzzy you did it right
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Hey Paul,
To back what Ross is saying, you can be misled if you pay attention to much more than initial "play is gone and then 1 turn".
The last time I verified adjusted it was the same, a "full" lifter just jacks the valve open until it bleeds down. I fired it right up after making adjustments and it backfired once. I shut it down and let it sit for a few minutes, after that everything was fine. As long as you set your preload with the lifter on the cam base circle you should be fine in that regard.
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Thank you very much. Just for background, I'm re-doing it because when I first set the preload it seems I left some valves hanging (thank you Howie for spotting that - BTW anyone heard from Howie lately?). I got them so the didn't seem to be hanging and started to focus on vacuum, idle, and timing, but it started ticking. I assumed I was too loose (at least on the #5 where the sound was coming from).
Jay suggested I take a look at the lifters, so off came the rocker assembly, and that is where I am now.
What I will do is any lifter that displays ANY free movement - I'll take the adjuster down until it doesn't have any rattle, and then down one full turn or around 40 thou. If there is no free movement I'll take it down one full turn, lock it all down and see how she runs.
Just kind of freaked me that they were suddenly so different.
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I've read the last few posts here and forgive me for being repetitive if I am, but I thought I'd offer my input. I do a lot of hyd roller stuff but hydraulic is hydraulic when it comes to preload.
First, the lifters will all be at their "full" position, where the plunger is at the top of it's travel, whether the lifter has oil in it or not. Some may be filled with oil, some may have had the valve in the open position while sitting and "bled down" like Jay eluded to earlier. All hyd. lifters have a "bleed rate". Some will bleed down rapidly and some will take a while, all depending on internal clearances. Morels are known for very tight tolerances inside and very low bleed rates. Cold oil adds to this condition.
As far as setting preload; I've heard just about every method in the book, but the one I use is, first, make sure the lifter is on the base circle. Doesn't matter how you do it. TDC, EOIC, or what have you. Next, don't use the "spin" method because you can still spin a pushrod that's compressing an empty lifter and that will get you in trouble. It's very hard to determine when there is zero lash using the spin method. Start by backing off any adjustment till there is obvious lash clearance. Now, with a very light touch, grab the valve end of the rocker with two fingers and gently start rocking the rocker up and down and slowly start adjusting the adjuster till there is no lash. As you keep rocking the rocker, you will feel the lash start to decrease. Don't push on the pushrod! Just let the pushrodd sit in the lifter with it's own weight. It doesn't matter if there's no oil in the lifter or not. There is a small spring in the plunger that will keep it at it's top position. If you're not careful, it's easy to compress the lifter if it's not full of oil, so be gentle. Wiggle, tighten, wiggle, tighten...you can feel where the last few thousandths of lash goes away. This should be the same on every lifter whether its full of oil or not. Once you have zero lash, give it however much preload you're using. Ideally, you want the plunger of the lifter in the middle of it's travel so I'd say 1 full turn is minimum with 3/8" adjusters. Do this with each valve, one at a time, and you shouldn't have any trouble, at least with lifter preload. If you feel like you;re trying to compress a lifter when you stat doing the preload, give it a quarter turn, wait a minute...another quarter, wait...the lifter will eventually bleed down. You can also look at the adjusters and they should give you a pretty good idea whether everything is right or not. They should all be very close to the same number of turns, or be at the same level in the rockers. If you have some that are obviously different, you might want to re-try them. Of course if your valve stem heights are all over the map this won't be the case but then you have bigger fish to fry.
As far as push rods rubbing, I do a lot of pushrod clearancing for over sized pushrods on engines I build. My "gauge" is a piece of paper wrapped around the pushrod. If I can slide the piece of paper all the way through the pushrod hole, it has enough clearance. The pushrod will flex! Even 3/8 pushrods in an FE will flex, and flex a lot. It was mentioned and I agree...we can actually use the head (or intake in this instance) to help limit the flexing by only giving the pushrod enough static clearance so the pushrod isn't in any sort of bind throughout it's movement. If it has clearance throughout it's movement, but you're still seeing rub marks, so be it. It's fine. In fact, at that point the more clearance you give it, the more it will flex and we don't want pushrods flexing. Just picture a pole vault. We don't want the pushrod becoming a secondary spring in the valve train.
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Scott - your description was helpful. I got on it today and re-did the pre-load. Biggest issue was I snapped a stud holding down the rocker cover and will need to get a new one (only 10 ft-lbs of torque so rather surprised).
They are all within 1/4 turn of each other and my main issue was the #5 rocker/lifter was ticking. I'll put the plugs back and run it tomorrow.
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They are all within 1/4 turn of each other and my main issue was the #5 rocker/lifter was ticking. I'll put the plugs back and run it tomorrow.
Sounds like you got it. 1/4 turn is certainly within the preload window at all but the tightest or loosest limits. If it is still noisy, it is likely a bad lifter
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Hope so. Some were very stiff and others mushy, so based on advice here I kept them all within a narrow range. I'll fire it later today and get it up to temp for a while. Hope the ticking has stopped.
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Hope so. Some were very stiff and others mushy, so based on advice here I kept them all within a narrow range. I'll fire it later today and get it up to temp for a while. Hope the ticking has stopped.
It might be after the fact but if it ticks, give it plenty of time to make it's adjustments. Let the oil get plenty warm. If you have the adjustments right the ticking should stop. One other thing to remember...hyd lifters are like little individual filters. They don't tolerate any kind of dirt or junk in the oil. 9 times out of 10 we see the results of Morel taking apart lifters that customers sent back as "faulty" and they're full of crud. Just an FYI.
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psst Paul..... Scott might know a thing or two about cams and lifters, pay attention. :P
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Scot knows nothi - - - oh heck, he's actually pretty sharp and well worth listening to :)
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My neighbour have imported a 66 Pontiac Boneville ,untouched just some
touched up paint in a few places . And today he
asked me come over and listen to a knock it had developed. It sounded
like the lifters. He had changed the oil to some modern high detergent
oil and probably it have dissolved the built up sludge in the untouched engine
and filled the lifters with crud
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As usual I am very grateful to the lessons I get here. I started and ran it yesterday for about 20 minutes. Started without drama and the valve train sounded nice and quiet. It seemed to run fine and shut down with a minimum of fuss. Timing was a bit odd - it kept showing me 90 degrees mixed in with 14 - 16. It seemed to have a bit of drift so I set it back to 18 to 20 degrees and I also tested the vacuum and it seemed low again. Bit frustrating but I'll get some O2 bungs welded into the exhaust this week and have a go at tuning the carb.
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As usual I am very grateful to the lessons I get here. I started and ran it yesterday for about 20 minutes. Started without drama and the valve train sounded nice and quiet. It seemed to run fine and shut down with a minimum of fuss. Timing was a bit odd - it kept showing me 90 degrees mixed in with 14 - 16. It seemed to have a bit of drift so I set it back to 18 to 20 degrees and I also tested the vacuum and it seemed low again. Bit frustrating but I'll get some O2 bungs welded into the exhaust this week and have a go at tuning the carb.
If you are seeing a moving mark with your light, and the vacuum advance is hooked to ported AND that line is dead at idle, you are likely seeing a crossfire under the cap or have bad wire/induction triggering.
First thing I would do is get it warm, let it idle and disconnect vacuum, make sure the line is dead at idle. If it isn't add secondary idle and close primary blades. If it is dead, shut it down and figure out why you are cross firing. It could be as easy as too much plug gap, to bad cao rotor or wires
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Ross - I didn't know what to make of it. Hadn't seen it before but was warned that the multi-spark on the MSD box could lead to strange timing light behaviour.
I'm going out on a limb and guessing that if it is cross fire and I'm seeing the 90 degree mark show up with the pickup on the #1 wire, it is most likely the #4 that is causing it and maybe it is induced from the wires. I'm always careful about #7 and #8, but since I just re-layed the wires over the top of the engine I may have a couple lying together.
If not I'll look at the cap and rotor.
Vacuum is disconnected at this point. Could be that I have a bad clamping surface. I think Drew gave me some advice on fixing that and I will attend to it in a bit.
Sooner or later I should get my MSD "Ready to Die" distributor back from MSD and I'll try it again and see if I get more than 12 minutes out of it this time. I think the wires on there are good, although I will recheck the connections at the plugs and cap, but I have brand new wires for the MSD.
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I've mentioned a few times that you need to pay attention to which timing light you use with an MSD.
With the FE firing order, if you think it could just be cross firing or a problem like that, put the timing light pickup on #6 and it should flash 180 out and thus be readable on your balancer.
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Drew - I will try that. I am using an Innova electronic/led light and it seems pretty consistent. I haven't checked it against my buddy's since I put in the box - he has a very old analogue Snapon - but when I started seeing the drift I had him bring his over to make sure my problem wasn't in the light.
I don't think I've seen this 90 degree thing before, but I think I have occasionally seen a jump with the light - possibly to a part of the balancer that doesn't have a mark. It is possible that I only really noticed it because this time there was a mark in the field of view.
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Just a follow up to Drews comments.
Those Innova lights are cool but only the high dollar red light (#5568 IIRC) is good with MSD ignitions.
I made the mistake of buying what they called an electronic light (second highest dollars to buy) and it does not work.
I called them and gave 'em a ration of sh-t for calling it electronic and not working on an electronic system.
They said, "We're sorry you misunderstood". >:(
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Marc - that is a classic "non-apology" - translation "we are sorry you are unhappy with our bad behaviour, but not sorry about our behaviour". It may be the light, I was seriously not impressed with it to begin with. It came with a dial so you could enter the advance on the light and see TDC at the mark. The dial kept falling off and since I didn't need it (that is why they put the marks on the balancer) I glued it on and in the zero position.
I'll have a look with the old school snapon light. Kind of distracted this week, my wife is in the hospital following a cardiac episode, so the truck will wait.
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Oh crap
Hope she's ok.
Yeah take care of her.
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Thanks Marc. Life wins over fun projects. Turns out she didn't do any harm to her heart, but she is booked for a triple in a few days. She feels good at the moment, trick is to keep her that way.
She made the comment that she had had a "mild" heart attack. I pointed out that cardiologists only know of two kinds of heart attacks. The kind where they are talking to the patient, and the other kind.
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I had one of those 2 kinds almost 15 years ago. It truly is great what capabilities they now have to handle these issues. Prayers for your wife for a successful operation and speedy recovery.
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Well, Trudy is recovering very well from her bypass, but my engine seems to be suffering from angina. I gave the truck to a shop to do some exhaust work and lean the carb down a bunch while Trudy was in the hospital - they put a 3.5 power valve in, took the front jets down from 76 to 72 and the rear jets down from 78 to 74 and the pump to 35. It no longer makes your eyes water form incomplete combustion. It was still running on so I had them wire in the resistor that MSD provides - I should have done it sooner but was distracted by the distributor. They also put in colder plugs.
The Ford distributor was jumping around and the MSD - as noted on another thread (may it rest in peace) - came back so we tried it again. It lasted 40 minutes this time, we did as MSD directed and confirmed that the module was fried. My guy was going to take the old Ford dizzy apart and see what he could do (I was still a full time maid and dog walker at the time) but I gave him a new rotor that seemed to fit better.
I've had time to put about 30 miles on it, but I've noticed the timing was up at 24 degrees two days ago, and yesterday it was at 20. Vacuum is stubbornly in the 6 to 7 range. Also the cap is looking pretty bad again (this is a new cap with 30 miles on it).
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/410dyno/IMG_3317.jpg)
MSD did offer to swap straight across for a version of the distributor that doesn't have a module or a vacuum canister, and I'm not sure how useful a vacuum canister is at 6 inches of mercury. I did have the O2 sensor bungs welded into the collectors and should get an LM2 kit in the courier next week. I'm not happy with how it is running, it actually had more snap and was more drivable when it was too rich. O2 readings should help.
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this months Hot Rod mag has some good imfo in it that may help you out .
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this months Hot Rod mag has some good imfo in it that may help you out .
gdaddy - I had a look at the website and didn't see anything that seemed particularly relevant.
BTW I also realized that I am mistaken. The cap in the picture was on the distributor with the rotor that didn't fit. The shop didn't put on the one I gave them - it was beige.
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It wasn't an article on Fe's , but a sbc , but had good points on timing and vacuum advance , what jets to run , power valves . there is two different articles that I thought where good . really sounded like some of your issues . maybe not .
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My computer won't let me see your dyno sheet or cam specs, but if you think 6 in of Hg is way low for vacuum then might do a leak down test to see if all your valves are closing...considering all the rocker adjustment challenges you've had.
Might also replace the PCV valve with a breather until you get things sorted out.
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Thank TJ, PCV is blocked at present, and all the cylinders showed about 120-125 PSI when I did the test last time. Not that high for the compression this engine should make.
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Sounds like you tested compression. I'm recommending you set each piston to TDC, hook it up to 100 psi, and listen for leaks. Or use an actual leak down gauge if you have one handy. Will probably leak a little past the rings but shouldn't leak past the valves.
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This whole tune seems odd, leaning it out, small power valve, just doesn't seem necessary for your build. Must be something goofy going on
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Thank TJ, PCV is blocked at present, and all the cylinders showed about 120-125 PSI when I did the test last time. Not that high for the compression this engine should make.
Did you degree the cam when you installed it? Static compression and cranking cylinder pressure aren't always related.
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We installed it as the cam instructions called - zero degrees. On the question of cranking pressure vs static compression one of my buddies told me to calm down and get it broken in. I still have less than 200 miles on it.
I'm grasping at straws on the whole vacuum thing. It is starting easily and running ok, but it is quite variable. It is hesitant and jerky on steady cruise some times, and quite happy at others. Seems happiest after about 20 minutes of running, worth noting that the coolant temp is steady so it isn't getting really hot.
Seemed to have more punch before we backed everything off, but it was fouling the plugs before we did. I just put a different distributor cap on and will put a few miles on it and see if it is still arcing and burning the inside of the cap. The timing was set by ear the last time we put the old Ford distributor in (after the second MSD fail), and a day later I got my light on it and it was at 24 degrees, next day when I started it the timing was at 20. There is definitely something fishy with this old distributor.
I have the option of swapping the MSD 8595 ready to run (has a bad module) for an MSD 8594 with no module, but also no vacuum pot. I've asked MSD if a pot can be added to the 8594. My alternative is to return it (hate to stick Barry R with it, but he is a big boy and won't complain) and buy a new Duraspark.
It is also still firing backwards on shut down sometimes. I've added the resistor that MSD recommend with 6AL box. When it doesn't fire backwards it shuts down cleanly, before the reduction in jets and powervalve it was running on or firing backwards. BTW with vacuum at 6 inches the stock powervalve was probably open at idle.
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"Zero degrees" as in "straight up"? Dot to dot? That isn't going to cut it. You need to degree the cam per the cam card. Either to the intake centerline, or the intake opening event @ .050" (which is what I recommend). You could be off by a mile per where the cam is supposed to be installed. Until you know where the cam is installed, you're chasing your tail. As far as cranking compression...you have plenty of time on the engine for the cranking compression to be accurate, especially if you have moly rings.
JMO
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We installed it as the cam instructions called - zero degrees. On the question of cranking pressure vs static compression one of my buddies told me to calm down and get it broken in. I still have less than 200 miles on it.
BTW with vacuum at 6 inches the stock powervalve was probably open at idle.
I think you may have a cam timing issue, either the cam isn't what you think it is, or it is late, your cranking compression and vacuum is really really low.
Also, just to be clear, your thoughts on powervalves are not correct. It cannot flow fuel at idle if the carb is adjusted properly. Sure it could be open, but the PV does not contribute fuel to the main well until the throttles are open. The route for the fuel just does not get energized until there is flow by the boosters. Additionally, you likely never get to 3.5 with your setup, my hunch is cruising vacuum is higher.
If it were mine, I'd degree the cam to include the cam profile, and then tune the carb correctly after getting vacuum where it should be.
What are the cam specs? I cannot imagine you went too big in a truck, your numbers are drag racing cam numbers in terms of vacuum. Also, if you can post which pistons, crank, rods, and heads you used (chamber and dish size especially for heads and pistons) we can likely get you there
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-I'm grasping at straws on the whole vacuum thing. It is starting easily and running ok, but it is quite variable. It is hesitant and jerky on steady cruise some times, and quite happy at others.
-It is also still firing backwards on shut down sometimes.
-When it doesn't fire backwards it shuts down cleanly, before the reduction in jets and powervalve it was running on or firing backwards. BTW with vacuum at 6 inches the stock powervalve was probably open at idle.
I edited various passages above. This is a classic example IMO of badly retarded cam timing.
You've described all the symptoms quite well but need to verify the cam specs versus the installed timing chain/gearset. You can check this in-car w/o yanking all the front dress but that requires a magnetic base dial indicator and pulling the balancer for the degree wheel. Lot of work but....
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Guys - as usual I really appreciate the thoughtful replies. I have been reviewing the cam card, looking at info on degreeing the cam, and trying to remember exactly how we did it. I probably used the wrong term when I said "zero degrees", what I meant was we didn't advance or retard it but installed it as the cam card indicated.
At present my immediate problem is that I really wish this summer had never happened. My wife and love of 38 years had open heart surgery on the 4th of July, and on Wednesday last week my brother and closest friend was taken into the trauma unit with a brain bleed and they opened him up and worked on him for about 5 hours to save his life and as much of his mind as they could. Jury is out on the latter but his life seems secure.
I am thinking that we didn't test the cam to see if it was correct, and installed it as spec'd. From what I have seen a few degrees off is not that rare and we may have to go back. I do know we didn't have any kind of tool to test where the cam started to open or close on the intake or exhaust. Most of the stuff I've seen assumes you have a lifter with a shaft attached that you can put a dial gauge on and confirm the cam movements to the degree wheel on the crankshaft.
Given the other things going on I'm going to put off a planned hip replacement in a few weeks, and may have some time for this in the next month. I will come back for specific suggestions on how to confirm cam position with a hydraulic roller cam - I don't believe I can use the lifter since it has movement, but I could be wrong.
Topping it all off I had to put one of my old dogs down this week. All in all a summer to forget.
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Sorry to hear the challenges, health comes before hot rods, hope everyone is hanging in there.
Often tolerance stack can retard a cam, sometimes the parts you get aren't what you think they are, compression often ends up lower. Although degreeing tools are not expensive, they can save your bacon if you get the wrong cam in the box. A less desirable option alternative is advance it 4 degrees and check intake valve clearance. If it's clear, it WILL raise your vacuum, and hopefully enough, but don't do it without checking valve clearance, you could put an intake valve into a piston
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Ok, getting back to the truck finally. Because of my family issues I did give it to a shop I use to put in the O2 sensor bung, re-do the parking brake (nice to have it stay where I put it), and do a little basic adjustment on the carb. Stock the QFT came with:
High Speed Air Bleed 28
Idle Air Bleed Size 70
Primary Main Jet 78
Secondary Main Jet 86
Primary Power Valve 65
Primary Pump Nozzle Size 33;35
It had been fouling plugs and it made your eyes water with unburned fuel when it idled in the show. He took the primary jet down to 72 and the secondary main jet down to 74, and we put in a 3.5 power valve. Timing is still up around 20 degrees, although the old Ford moves around a bit.
I did put some miles on it, then I got an LM2 O2 sensor kit from Innovate. The MSD distributor ran for 40 minutes and we had to go back to the old Ford, and I have a Duraspark on order from Faron Rhoads. What I saw driving it was it likes to be hot, after 20 minutes it starts to perk up. I got a little highway time on it, and it is sluggish until 3,000, and really comes to life over 4,000. It also likes to run on after shut down.
I put the O2 sensor on it today and saw around 17 at idle, 13 to 14 when on steady throttle, and 12 down as low as 10 on WOT. On off throttle deceleration it was pushing 15.
When in third and hitting the throttle hard at around 2,500 the reading dropped to 10, and you could hear rattle. I always assumed detonation was an issue with a lean condition but it sounds like detonation or fuel burning in the headers. If I give it WOT at higher RPM I don't get the rattle, or it is only momentary.
It has been suggested on here that I probably have my cam retarded. I went over what we did with my friend who did it with me. We did install it as per the cam card, and aside from the rich condition and the issues with too tight/too loose valves it never rattled before. I am wondering if perhaps we have stretched the timing chain. It is a new Ford Racing timing set.
I have a bit of a dumb question, I know Jay has some lovely pieces for adjusting valve timing and he is very gracious about not pushing them, but really how do you get a couple of degrees of adjustment without them? I was thinking it might be a good idea to just bight the bullet and pull of the current pieces in favour of Jay's set and get it on a dyno and make some adjustments and watch what it does.
I can say I would much have preferred to spend my summer burning fingers and scraping knuckles.
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Some timing sets have several keyways in the crank gear. In order to change the cam timing you have to pull the crank gear and move it to a different keyway. Not something you can easily do on the dyno, though. There's not really any other way to adjust cam timing.
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Before you buy anything, degree the cam.
Remember, when you degree a cam you are checking 2 things
1 - That you got the cam you think you got
2 - That it is installed where you need it to be, or in the very least where the cam manufacturer wanted it. This can turn out different even if you masterfully install it dot to dot due to tolerance stack or poorly made components.
Your symptoms so far look like late cam timing, but it could also be that it isn't the cam you think it is, wouldn't be the first time someone put the wrong cam in a box
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My specialty is figuring the thing out AFTER I've gone further than I needed. I'm starting on checking the cam position. I needed to pull the rad because of a tiny slow weep that has been bugging me, and I had the heater hoses reversed, so tonight I tore into it.
I have the rad, fan, fan shroud, PS pump and brackets, alternator and bracket, belts, etc. out of the way. Time to aske the dumb question - if there is something wrong I'll need to take the water pump and timing cover off, but is it possible to check the cam position without pulling everything off?
I was looking at it and if there was a longer crank bolt and 3/4 inch spacer behind it the degree wheel would clear the water pump drive. Not that I'm lazy (yes, I am), but all that stuff is nicely sealed and if the cam timing isn't wrong, getting it all back tight and dry is not guaranteed.
BTW I did look and realized that Jay's lovely adjustable timing gear and cover are not much help with a mechanical water pump. Ordering one would have been an expensive disappointment. With electric fans and electric water pump I imagine it is pretty slick.
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A cheap Mr Gasket 7" diameter degree wheel will fit where the front pulley sits and will be plenty accurate for what you are doing.
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Lots of "printable" degree wheels out there.
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/printable-degree-wheel.974/
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Thanks Barry. I'm scrambling around to pick up a good used dial indicator (easy part) and an extension to reach down to the lifter. Question to those who have done this - is a 6 inch extension enough to reach down to the top of the lifter? I think the push rods are 8 plus inches.
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For your purposes you can check for opening and closing points, and max lift right at the at the valve. Just roll back and forth beyond max lift until you locate the intake lobe centerline. No need to get exotic, nor for "to the degree" accuracy here. You are looking for gross errors.
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For your purposes you can check for opening and closing points, and max lift right at the at the valve. Just roll back and forth beyond max lift until you locate the intake lobe centerline. No need to get exotic, nor for "to the degree" accuracy here. You are looking for gross errors.
I completely agree with what you're saying about not needing to be "to the degree" accurate here but I've found that, depending on the lobe, ICL can be misleading by as many as 6-7 degrees. I've learned to always degree a cam to the intake opening event. Also, checking at the valve with a hyd. lifter doesn't always work. Not sure if YT has a solid or hyd...just sayin...
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Thanks Barry. I'm scrambling around to pick up a good used dial indicator (easy part) and an extension to reach down to the lifter. Question to those who have done this - is a 6 inch extension enough to reach down to the top of the lifter? I think the push rods are 8 plus inches.
6" extension should get you there. You can use a piece of welding rod, coat hanger wire, anything stiff enough to run the dial indicator up and down. You just have to find a flat spot on the lifter or put something on the end of the wire so it doesn't go in the oil hole.
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Thanks Barry. I'm scrambling around to pick up a good used dial indicator (easy part) and an extension to reach down to the lifter. Question to those who have done this - is a 6 inch extension enough to reach down to the top of the lifter? I think the push rods are 8 plus inches.
6" extension should get you there. You can use a piece of welding rod, coat hanger wire, anything stiff enough to run the dial indicator up and down. You just have to find a flat spot on the lifter or put something on the end of the wire so it doesn't go in the oil hole.
Won't argue about the lifter compressing possibility.
Won't argue about the importance of open and close events.
I usually do ICL and follow up with the open/close as a cross check using the same setup - they better match.
I will say that if you see 6 or 7 degree variances in ICL measurement you have issues with measurement setup or the cam itself.
As far as an extension you can just as well get a piece of wood dowel from the Home Depot....as long as it slips through the intake hole...
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I'll be checking out a nearly new Mitutoyu dial indicator ($40) this morning, and I think I'll pony up for the extension ($20). I know you can do it with welding rod or a dowel, but given the chances of doing this wrong I think I'll at least give myself the chance of doing it right!
I don't think I'll try to take the read from the valve since I'm using hydraulic lifters and the springs are pretty stiff. I assume that taking it directly off the lifter will give a pretty good read since the dial indicator won't put up much resistance to the lifter. Taking the rockers off to get to the lifter is not too big a price for getting this right.
I picked up a piston stop, but I'll have to order a degree wheel, seems no one carries them here in Calgary. I will also confirm TDC on the harmonic balancer while I'm at it and make sure it isn't moving around (given the timing drift I've seen).
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I will say that if you see 6 or 7 degree variances in ICL measurement you have issues with measurement setup or the cam itself.
Asymmetric lobe...actual centerline can be that far off from what you measure.
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I've been scrambling around to make sure I have the bits I need to do this. I have the front of the engine down to the crank and spacer and should be able to do this on the long weekend. I plan to remove the water pump and rocker assembly on the passenger side to do this (no 7 inch degree wheel available in Calgary on short notice, and I don't want to rely on paper and cardboard).
I'd like to confirm what I'm checking. I was planning on finding TDC with the piston stop, then watching the #1 intake lifter position move from the base circle up to 0.050 inches and note the position on the degree wheel. According to the cam card that should occur at 9 degrees BTDC. Then I will watch for it to fall to 0.050 inches, which according to the cam card will happen at 45 degrees ABDC. I see the max lift is .3370 and it should occur at 108 degrees ATDC, but I don't expect that to be as specific a measurement as the other two since there is a little flattening at the top of the lobe.
I planned to do the same on the exhaust but looking for 0.050 of lift at 52 degrees BBDC and the same at 8 degrees ATDC, with max lift of .3380 at 112 degrees BTDC.
Any shift from these values indicates the cam is incorrectly installed and may be the cause of some of the issues I'm experiencing.
Do I understand this correctly? If not, please correct me before I do something I'll regret.
Unrelated comment - I don't know much about cams, but I understood a lobe separation of 106 to 109 mean more overlap, and 110 to 118 meant less, but this cam seems to have 17 degrees of overlap (the intake opens 9 before TDC and the exhaust closes 8 after TDC). I tried to map out the relationship between cam events and crank rotation - I hadn't done it before since we just installed to the cam card.
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Looking at your numbers, you have a cam that is 234 @ .050 intake and 240 @.050 exhaust, 110 LSA on 108 ICL
Right off the bat, that seems installed a little late and a little bit larger than I'd probably use in a truck. Not enough to drive you crazy, but a little later than I would want it unless you are running a bit more compression than you should. That being said, it's not far off what I run in my 445 truck, but my truck doesn't do any work anymore and I installed mine earlier (advanced) for a bit more vacuum and low end
Regardless, your method is correct to check valve events if those came off your cam card
So, you are doing the right thing. If you also post the advertised (.006) valve events, and your compression ratio, we can give an estimate of how far forward you can advance it, but remember, as Barry said, you are also looking for gross errors. Either the cam is not what you think it is, or you are installed later than the expected 108.
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Thanks Ross. My truck doesn't do any work either. I just like wasting gas and rubber in it.
The C/R should be around 10.03 to 1. I know the cam is a bit over the top, but that was what I was aiming for. The .006 numbers are 288 and 290.
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I'd likely advance that cam to 105/106 ICL with that compression and aluminum heads in that application. Could even go 104 if you have decent fuel, especially with the good chamber. FYI even a couple degrees change will increase vacuum and part throttle drivability.
That being said, 108 ICL is likely not the problem, but when you do find the cause of low vacuum, cranking the cam forward will only help.
FYI it's not THAT big of a cam, like I said, I run similar, but it's on the big side for a truck by traditional standards
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Ok well first off.... no one starts off as an engine builder. They own a series of progressively less shitty vehicles until they have mastered getting horribly worn out engines tuned well enough that they can function well enough to get them to work in the morning, many of these lessons are learned at 4am and hour before you need to leave. After ten years you have enough money to build a stroker or other high performance engine. If you skipped the important years..... your learning curve has to be steeper.
Drew
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I just saw Drew's reply and that of Brett's just afterwards. I've seen a few fellows with zero or near zero engine building experience try to build a killer or even hot engine for the very first time. Things did NOT go well!
As Drew well stated, coming up through junk engines, bad running beaters, slapped together 1st top end jobs, then cam swaps, then later complete engine assembly and learning, often the hard way, is the way to go.
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*except Mr Lykins, just cuz he likes to be contrary :P
Thankfully Paul has some great minds helping him work this out. Thankfully he also started with a hydraulic roller cam, a SFT would have been a problem by now.
Keep the faith, you are getting there.
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Bob - I started with shitty stuff when I was a teenager, then took 40 years off.
Luckily I have friends who help, and this forum, which is invaluable.
I now have all the bits, so time to get started. I have to spend tomorrow with my brother in the rehab unit at the hospital, where he will spend the next couple of months in intensive speech and physical therapy. His wife needed a day off, so tomorrow I'll shadow his therapy sessions.
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Ross - thanks again. I have access to run of the mill Shell 91. There are a couple of 93 octane fuels around but they all have ethanol, Shell is the only pure gasoline premium. I'm not sure why, but I've been advised to go with the lower octane and avoid the 10% ethanol mixes in the older engine.
If I understand what you are suggesting - I should consider moving the cam so the ICL is in the 104 to 106 position on the degree wheel. Since ICL is hard to nail, that means moving the 0.050 events 2 to 4 degrees advanced. Of course it is possible I will find we misplaced the cam and ICL is not at 108.
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Ross - thanks again. I have access to run of the mill Shell 91. There are a couple of 93 octane fuels around but they all have ethanol, Shell is the only pure gasoline premium. I'm not sure why, but I've been advised to go with the lower octane and avoid the 10% ethanol mixes in the older engine.
If I understand what you are suggesting - I should consider moving the cam so the ICL is in the 104 to 106 position on the degree wheel. Since ICL is hard to nail, that means moving the 0.050 events 2 to 4 degrees advanced. Of course it is possible I will find we misplaced the cam and ICL is not at 108.
Yes, that is what I am saying
Additionally, I am saying that I think you WILL find something other than that though, a 108 ICL would not cause all your heartache with a 445 and 10:1 compression. I just think after you find the issue, a 2 degree advance of the cam, from where you thought it was, would be beneficial
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Ok, I've been out messing with it. I see the TDC mark is about 4 degrees retarded compared to the pointer on the timing cover. I'll confirm that when I have the balancer back on, but it does suggest that the timing light is exaggerating the amount of ignition advance.
I am seeing 0.050 of lift at about 10 degrees ATDC, the cam card calls for it to occur at 9 degrees. The closing 0.050 occurs around 48 degrees, the cam card calls for that to occur at 45 degrees. Given that my measuring skills are sub par, and I don't have much iron up top to grab with the magnetic base I think I'll put it away and check it again tomorrow. I will also set up and check the exhaust events.
Having said that, I'm not seeing any gross error. Seems we didn't screw up the install. I am surprised that when cranking with the all the plugs out it is stiff for about 90 degrees, then leaps ahead as if compressed air was driving it. I only have one set of rockers off, but I wouldn't expect that to have much impact with the plugs out.
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Rather than modify my previous post, since I've already owned up to being a little weak on taking measurements, I'm looking at the cam card and the intake should be open 9 degrees BTDC, and I'm seeing it open 10 ATDC. I think I need to do it again.
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Looking forward to the results
FYI, if your mark turns out to be 4 degrees off on the balancer, I'd be looking to see what moved.
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It's actually the valve spring pressure causing it to leap ahead. If one set of rockers are on and the other side is off, the valve springs will cause it to jump like that.
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Rather than modify my previous post, since I've already owned up to being a little weak on taking measurements, I'm looking at the cam card and the intake should be open 9 degrees BTDC, and I'm seeing it open 10 ATDC. I think I need to do it again.
Looking at the valve events on the card, most cam cards I;ve seen will have a (-) behind the intake opening event if it's meant to open after TDC. If your .050 intake opening number is -9, then it should open 9* ATDC. If it's just a 9, then 9* BTDC. If it's supposed to open 9* before, and you're at 10* after, there's your problem.
Make sure you verify TDC.
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It'd be surprising if it was -9, that'd have to be a 216 @ .050 lobe on a 117 centerline to have a 45 degree closing point.
He likely measured incorrectly
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I'm sure I'm wrong in the measurements, starting with the fact that I didn't remove both rockers. I will do that next. I am also sure I'm wrong about the timing mark, that is just plain stupidity.
I will check the indicator dial for accuracy before I take the next set of measurements.
Since it is my mother's 98th birthday today, and I spent the day shadowing my brother through his speech and physio therapy I won't get on it today (plenty to be encouraged and alarmed about - but such is the nature of brain injuries).
I do know what I need to do next, thanks to your direction.
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Not claiming that I have aster measuring things, but I think I have this one. The cam card calls for intake open 0.050 at 9 BTDC close 0.050 at 45 ABDC. This is exactly as it is printed on the card.
As I measured it with both rockers off and with the dial indicator set up several times to make sure I didn't have an error caused by placement: intake opens at 8 BTDC and closes at 45 ABDC. I can also see about .336 of lift and it calls for .337 - occurring somewhere around 110 ATDC. I don't really have confidence in where the max lift occurs, but it is about the right amount and in the right area.
So, no gross error it seems. I am gathering that this doesn't mean the engine won't be happier if it is advanced, but I'm open to taking the timing cover off and adjusting it, but I'm looking at a picture of the Ford Racing M6268A390 timing set and would appreciate some guidance on how to move it the recommended amount. I've been looking and I don't see any instructions or videos.
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If it's that close I would leave it.
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So, it's supposed to be 9/45 for a 108 ICL, you are reading 8/45 at near 110. So no gross errors but your cam IMHO is slightly retarded for your use, ever so slightly big for your application.
Not everyone likes DCR, but a a computation for comparison of the compression stroke adjusted for intake events it makes sense. Most good chamber, tight quench, decent compression, alum head street motors with matching parts, tend to be happy around 8.30-8.35 DCR using PKelley's calculator (others give different values)
Your cam, installed at open @ 9, close @ 45, and assuming you are accurate with an SCR of 10.03, and a 288 @ .006 lobe would have a DCR of 7.57. Pretty low for a hot street motor. That is not a problem per se, but it does give up vacuum and part throttle power and lower cranking compression and/or low RPM pressures. Low compression will want more ignition timing and have less vacuum. Keep in mind, if it's actually a degree or two later than that, with a 110 ICL you end up at 7.44 DCR, that's real low.
So, does it make sense that you have low vacuum? Yes, is it enough to make a huge difference? Maybe, I certainly wouldn't want to give up DCR with a truck with good chambers that can actually take advantage of compression unlike the loose quench, poor chamber stockers that cannot handle compression as well.
So, would I pull the front cover change it? I would have originally put that cam on a 104 ICL to end up at 7.84, and likely, if tolerances came in at 105 with a 4 degree advance, I'd go even farther to 103 before I left it at 105 (but you need to check valve clearance) However, if you really have a mismarked TDC, before I moved the cam, I'd make sure my timing marks and curve was right, and likely go with 16 initial, 16-18 degree advance, all in by 2700 and make sure the timing marks were accurate. A loss of 4 degrees ignition timing will kill vacuum and low end as well, especially with a slightly big/late cam
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Ross - thanks for the good explanation. Ignore the comment I made about the timing pointer and harmonic balancer, that was a pure brain fart. I won't know until I put the balancer back on with the engine in TDC. I expect it is correct. At one point we set the timing just by how the engine responded, and it came in around 20-22, but the problem was the timing with this distributor keeps moving around as much as 5 degrees between starts. Waiting on a new distributor to solve that.
You have mentioned a couple of times a concern about valve/piston interference. I was under the impression that these engines didn't have piston/valve interference.
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You have mentioned a couple of times a concern about valve/piston interference. I was under the impression that these engines didn't have piston/valve interference.
The further you advance a cam, the tighter the intake valve can get, the later you retard it, the tighter an exhaust valve can get.
I would not expect you to have interference problems with a set of modern stroker pistons, but, when you start playing with very early cam timing ... <104...It's important to check, heck it's always important to check, but especially the intake side when getting early.
Now if whoever sold you the stroker parts says that cam with those pistons and heads are fine, I'd believe them, but I like to map out my clearance when I advance a cam
FYI - When my Mustang was a 433, I went from a 300 adv, 250@.050 108 LSA on 108 ICL (straight up) that was fussy as hell around town. I advanced that cam 4 degrees, and when it came in it was really at 105 ICL (3 degrees advance) it made a noticeable difference in vacuum and part throttle response. It doesn't sound like much, but it changes more in traffic than on a dyno IMHO
That being said, ignition timing, actual SCR, no vacuum leaks, sort all that out first IMHO, especially if you think the distributor is failing, but I do think you would benefit from cranking that cam forward.
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Last dumb question for today - how do you confirm your valves don't interfere when the heads are on the engine? I am assuming that there is a minimum safe clearance since the engine moving at speed and under load will not hold the same relative positions as it does at rest.
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Not a dumb question - given I have an engine that likes to pull at high RPM, but I'm really limited to 5,800 to 6,000 RPM, and it is suffering from run-on after shut down, and the cam is in the correct position according to the cam card - if I advance it by 2 or 3 degrees (I'm assuming the Ford Racing timing set has some fixed amounts it can move advanced or retarded since there are 9 keyways) will it affect the run-on? I gather 2 degrees will change the low end at a cost of the top end.
If I'm going to mess with it now is a good time since I have the front off the engine. Hate to put it back on only to pull it all off, but if that is the smart play while testing the new dizzy I will listen to those who have been here before.
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So, first, for run-on
Run-on after shut down is due to too high of an idle combined with an oxygen source. This is typically the throttle blades are too far open at idle, because some other part of the build drives it.
Some thoughts and reasoning
1 - Usually, the primaries are too far open, but it can be the secondaries on a 4 corner idle too. This is really "dieseling" because the engine is firing on residual heat, combined with fuel and air being pulled in because of the carb being misadjusted. But...how do you get it to idle down?
2 - Initial timing - The higher the initial timing, generally the higher the vacuum and the lower the engine will happily idle on its own. If you are 100% positive of your TDC, then just make sure with a cam like that, that you have somewhere north of 14, and if more, it's likely easier, but you don't usually NEED more. Just to make sure you have the TDC checking correct, the only exact way now is to check with a piston stop. You put a piece of tape on your balancer, all the way around, masking tape is fine. Thread in a piston stop, turn the motor backwards by hand off the crank until it hits and stops. Mark the tape, turn it the other way hut it hits again, mark the tape. Measure the 1/2 way point between the marks, that is true TDC and should match your balancer. If it doesn't, either the balancer is bad (if its way off) or could just be manufacturing differences or parts choices, just remark it
Also, timing is set and forget, unlike some steps below. Pick a curve, set it up and rule it out. I would go 16 initial after you verify TDC, likely a 16-18 bushing, and then choose springs for all in by 2700-2800. Verify, then leave that part alone
3 - Adjust your carb correctly
You will likely have to go through these steps a couple times, and in this order. Once you go through, if it idles too low or high, you have to go through all the steps again because A affects all
A - Usually, you take off the carb and look at the blades. The transition slots should just be showing with the carb NOT of fast idle. Two goals here, front and back. Transition slots barely showing (allows some vacuum to "preload" the circuit for when airflow kicks in, but not enough to pull fuel and not enough to let extra air in. You adjust by the throttle stop screw on the rear, and on the front the idle speed screw. Sometimes you have to do this a couple times because in the end, you would rather have the rears slightly open because the transition slot is a little higher and its not as fussy. So bottom line on this, close up all 4 throttle plates to where they should be, and if required, bring the idle up slight later using the rear
B - Adjust idle air fuel correctly, start at 3/4 turns out if 4 corner idle. Start the engine and watch manifold vacuum or listen with your ear. Go in and out and watch what each screw does. You want highest idle or highest vacuum. Go in and out and repeat as many times to be sure. I use my ear, but new guys often like a vacuum gauge. However, be sure that all screws end up the same. You should not be more than a 1/8-1/4 off that 3/4 initial setting, and usually you can almost just guess it there and leave it to be honest. Same if it is 2 corner, but start at 1 1/8. If after setting the timing, throttle plates and a/f, you cannot get it to idle, take the carb off and raise the rear idle a bit, very little, then go back and start over with the idle a/f at 3/4 or 1 1/8 depending on your carb.
C - Make sure heat is managed properly - A carb can lose it's ability to control fuel if boiling over. Although this is generally not a cause of diseling, it can do some odd stuff if it gets hot. So if you cannot easily tune it and it feels real hot at the carb, if you do not run a spacer, add a 1 inch phenolic, then start over with carb adjustment. Keep in mind a 67-72 truck with an RPM intake doesn't have much room at the cab lip, so you may find you need to dent the air cleaner element or get creative if you put a big spacer with an RPM intake. BTs and SD/SM do not have that issue
Next, the cam. Will it help run-on?
Sort of, and yes, but not before what I typed above.
So, if you increase idle vacuum by any means, you can close the carb more and idle the engine down a bit more. So, advancing the cam will do that, assuming everything is correct above. However everything above needs to be done or it can still diesel. So, if you decide to advance the cam, then you have to recheck timing and readjust the carb. The two major factors are carb and timing, so it sort of drives you to either try it, or just advance the cam now for a little better manners and then do your distributor swap, then your carb. Again, it's not a magic bullet, but I would likely advance that cam for better street behavior. Knowing perfectly well you proved that it wasn't your "problem" but at this point, it's apart and you can make it a little better, and in some conditions, noticeably better
Other questions
1 - The Ford racing timing set will let you advance in 2 degree increments. I would go 4 degrees advanced slot, and then degree it for open/close. It should be 13/41, or as close as you can get. Srould you go more if it ends up at 12? Depends on the valve clearance checck
2 - How do you check clearance? I put checking springs on the #1 cylinder's valves, although you can get away with just the intake valve on yours because the cam has already ran with the exhaust and advancing only tightens the intake, it'll make the exhaust better You can use a Ford rocker shaft spring. You do not need or want to assemble the rockers, but you do need to have the balancer on or the degree wheel set up for true TDC to reference TDC
Once its assembled with the soft spring, bring it to 20 degrees BTDC. Measure installed height for the intake valve with a closed valve (retainer to bottom of spring) then push down on the valve tip (not the retainer it will pop off) until it hits the piston. Subtract the numbers, that is how much total room you have. Subtract valve lift from that and you get clearance, write that down. Some might say to install the rockers, that's good with a solid cam, but for a hyd cam just measure
Do the same procedure at 15 BTDC, 10 BTDC, 5 BTDC, zero, clearance will shrink, repeat until it starts growing. You now have a map of your clearance, it will likely be tightest at 10 BTDC or so.. It took as long to type as it does to check it. Measure, turn, write down, repeat, then go do the math and if one set of numbers doesn't make sense, go back to the truck, and recheck.
As long as you are over .090 on the intake side, you will be good, and you can go tighter, but I doubt you are even close to that. FYI, to repeat, the exhaust side it is more critical, but remember, it has not blown up yet, and advancing the cam gives you MORE room on the exhaust, so unless you want to, I wouldn't even look at it for this exercise
Once you advance that cam, set the timing (with the new distributor) and adjust the carb, life should be real good.
Question - I have been struggling to think about why the timing jumps around. Could be a module, could be vacuum advance with the plates too far open, could be a bad rotor, distributor cap, if you have a rev limiter, I have seen pills go bad, or #1 spark plug wire is failing. All of these would show on a timing light. Have you checked any of those other things? I have never seen a module bounce spark around unless it had a built in limiter that went bad/
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Excellent instructions Ross. Later, Travis
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I misunderstood - I thought you meant the run on was likely a consequence of retarded cam timing. I'm almost disappointed that it is correct because it means I still have a demon to find.
One detail I didn't mention - I did run it with an LM2 O2 sensor attached. In a quick test idle showed 15.7 to 17.5 (pretty lean), and WOT showed 12 with it momentarily as low as 10.9 on initial stomp. Cruise showed 14.25. In third if I stomped it under 3,000 I heard it rattle. It didn't rattle in second but I suspect that was because it gained RPM much more quickly.
I'll respond to your questions when I have had more time. Have a family thing with my brother today (they gave him a weekend pass out of the hospital).
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So Paul, you have a lot going on, so no issues walking away for a few days.
However, just to be clear, your issues (not only run on, but all the other things that are abnormal) made sense with severely retarded cam timing..which you proved you did not have. Hard to adjust carb, low vacuum, poor performance, etc.
That being said, you DO have retarded cam timing in my eyes, I would never run that cam that late in your combo, but I cannot say it is solely causing your problems, nor would anyone else on this forum except that it makes a slightly big cam act slightly bigger at idle especially
You know you have something wrong with the ignition and I am unsure what you have done inside the carburetor or how you adjusted. Will you have a new distributor here soon? Have you done any modifications to the carb?
Let's talk more before you pull the trigger on anything and make a checklist. If you follow what I wrote, assuming your carb is returned all back to as delivered and you sort out the timing/secodnary ignition issue, advancing the cam will make it run better, but the problem is undoubtedly there, it's just a nicely built 445
FYI - Your idle a/f means very little. The other numbers look fine. In the end, if the timing is changing, nothing else matters, including those numbers, the timing mark should be rock steady at idle
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Ross - I have printed out the post you wrote. Thank you for such a thoughtful response. I also acknowledge a few others including Drew who have given careful direction.
Before I go further - on the timing issue what I have noticed with the old Ford/Petronix combo is that the timing changes from one day to the next, not while I'm driving it. I'll see it at 20 when I start it, 20 when I park it, and a couple of days later I'll check it again and it will be at 16 or 24. I've been ignoring it of late, but getting a bad MSD distributor was a set back.
On to your note:
I had the carb set up from the factory with the jets taken down two sizes to adjust for the 3,500 foot altitude here in Calgary. It was very rich and fouled plugs quickly. I also had the primaries open too much so I closed them down - the pictures show where the were after I adjusted them:
Primaries
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4398/36611244760_89294a944e_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XMdcxW)Primaries as adjusted (https://flic.kr/p/XMdcxW) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
Secondaries
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4374/36867755191_7355621676_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/YaSTaz)Secondaries (https://flic.kr/p/YaSTaz) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
I had the carb adjusted by a local shop (I didn't want to but this was when my wife was having her bypass surgery) - they told me they took the jets down from 76 to 72 and 78 to 74, the pump down to a 3.5, and the powervalve down to a 3.5. It now doesn't foul plugs and the O2 readings were with these settings. It idles around 1,000 right now. I did NOT yet do what I was told to do - bend the secondary linkage to make sure the secondary snaps shut. I will. I also have not touched the IFR. I know I have more carb work to do. I decided to take questions about the cam timing on first, and my friend who helped me is relieved because he was sure he had done it according to the instructions. Since I hadn't done it before I didn't have as good a recollection of how we did it.
Initial timing has been up around 18 to 20 based on the marks on the balancer, and I have no reason to think they are bad but will confirm with the piston stop before I put the plugs back in. I did set it by ear and then checked it, and it was happy (higher idle and vacuum) around 22 according to the marks on my balancer. There is no rev limiter.
I have a 1 inch Super Soaker phenolic resin spacer on there, and my fuel is routed up the passenger side of the firewall and into the carb away from heat. Used to have vapour lock issues with the 410 so I re-routed it away from all the heat. I'm running an old Street Dominator intake and seem to have good clearance.
I see you suggest that we will have to reconsider initial timing and carb once the cam is advanced. I'm even more inclined to think it makes sense to do it now since all the adjustments to the carb will need to be done again.
Thanks for your advice, now I have to figure out how to change a valve spring with the heads on. That is ok, learning is good.
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So that looks good, assuming you didn't have to change the idle screw setting much after install.
As far as higher elevation and jet change, I just cant see two sizes of jets fouling plugs. However, if cylinder fill is that much worse, advancing you cam will help more than someone at higher air pressure
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Ross, I'm not finished my reply - was having trouble using Flickr to add pics so am modifying that post. BTW my name is NOT Fred Snoyd. I use that name for annoying websites that demand a name. My real name is Paul.
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Ross, I'm not finished my reply - was having trouble using Flickr to add pics so am modifying that post. BTW my name is NOT Fred Snoyd. I use that name for annoying websites that demand a name. My real name is Paul.
LOL no worries Paul, I'll call you whatever you want :)
My opinion is that the advanced cam will help how it runs in general, additionally, I think your person who set up the carb didn't help you but we can chase that later. FYI, I think you are a PV swap away from that carb being spot on given your numbers.
One thing that could be good at this point, is in one response, list what you are unhappy with right now. Then before I spend your time or money, we'll be very clear on what the truck is doing and how far to go with it.
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Fred, :)
If you need to get the idle lower, you can still shut the secondaries a lil bit. I'd have that not showing the slot (or barely) before messing with the feed restrictions (well, other than lowering the ifr, but that might be beyond the scope of what you wanna do).
Ross mentions the PV and is dead on, with your engine/cam you shouldn't need anything lower than a 6.5, but this is tested cruisng, plus you have a wideband so it'll be obvious when the valve opens as you'll notice the a/f go super rich.
I've also noticed with the emulsion on those carbs that they go super rich when the mains come online, only leaning out as rpms gain. Probably looks just peachy on a dyno, but for a street car it's sucky unless you just stab the throttle constantly.
Is your intake vac still really low?
Where are your idle mixture screws? (as far as how many out)
You know that you don't *need* to have all four the same, sometimes 3/4 turn out on the primaries and 1/3 out on the secondaries is the trick, sometimes ya gotta just play with it all to see what they like.
Course it's still a big double pumper with a 50cc pump, so is what it is.
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I'll put my full set of conditions down in one place, but a couple of quick comments -
The jetting down two sizes for altitude was just QFTs standard recommended adjustment. It should have reduced the rich condition but was still way to rich. I don't think the shop that did the carb adjustments did a great job, but they got it so I'm not fouling plugs every 10 miles, so I can drive it a bit.
Even with the timing advanced I'm still seeing no better than 8 inches. One thing about vacuum that I've been thinking about is the fact that you can't create more vacuum in space, so clearly at 3,500 feet I'll see LESS vacuum than the same mill at sea level. If I ever move to Vancouver Island I may have to back the cam off, assuming I advance it.
BTW - I bought the package from Barry and he said he can't believe that cam will interfere with the piston at 4 degrees of advance. I think I'll pull the timing cover today and see if I can get the crank spacer off. I will put it back together and run to see how the cam change affects it before I put in a new distributor or adjust the carb.
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Paul, First and most important. I like your plan, advance the cam and it'll gain vacuum. Ignition timing alone will gain some, but once you get to the point you are, you have to change valve events in relation to piston movement with either a smaller cam, or advancing a larger one. My guess is, with 4 degrees advance from where you are now, you will get to 10-ish.
Second - You understand vacuum perfectly, higher elevation, less atmospheric pressure. Don't worry about it being too advanced going 4 degrees forward from where you are, your cam would be happy at sea level in the advanced position, that's what DCR calculation can tell you. At sea level, using the combos I build, 8.33 is about perfect with alum heads, you are in the mid 7's. DCR is only a tool, one of many inputs that guys like me use, but yours is retarded for use and going 4 degrees forward (in your specific combo) will never have to be readjusted for lower elevation. I am only saying this part to make you feel better about your decision.
Third - I understand that the carb setup may have been one of the things that seemed to go right, but it's really not how you want to set up a street carb. I am only saying it because you sort of justified that it made things better. Fact is, there is no way that your jet and power valve change fixed a flooded engine unless the original power valve was leaking/ruptured. I believe you 100% that it's better after the change, but the 3.5 PV is wrong for you. It does make sense if it replaced a bad PV, but a good 6.5 or 5.5 will likely let the truck run better, especially under load and won't go lean too early as the truck starts building a little vacuum. Again, the only way the changes they made could stop a flooded engine is if the PV was ruptured and flooding the well behind it. I promise. It doesn't need to be fixed right away, but, to dial it in right, you'll address it later.
I am going to hold back until you get a chance to do a consolidated list, I just want to make sure I am offering a the right advice and sort of lost the bubble. Regardless, that engine will be happier with the cam +4 from what it is.
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It may be that the PV was ruptured. Early on we had some good backfires. The QFT support desk insisted that it would rupture, but I'm fine with putting a new one in. They put in a PV I had bought when I was getting a vacuum of 6 at best. I completely believe you and Drew that the carb is more pats wrong than right at the moment. I will find out what the IFR size is that came on the carb - it isn't included in their spec - and will consider changing it when I know.
I'm in the middle of the timing set removal - will need to pick up a gear puller tomorrow to get the crank gear off. I also will have to drop the oil pan since I broke a piece of a scraper and it disappeared down towards the rear of the pan. It is also collecting a lot of crap from scraping the gasket off.
It is a pain to drop the pan since it is a 4WD with lots of stuff in the way, but if I do I can correct one bone head move I made by not installing the oil pump drive shaft from the bottom. Might as well get all this done at once. Need to pick up a retainer clip for the pump drive and then putting in and pulling distributors (something I've done all to much of) won't be such a challenge.
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It may be that the PV was ruptured. Early on we had some good backfires.
Seems harder to blow them on modern carbs than it used to be prior to the lil baseplate checkball.
I will find out what the IFR size is that came on the carb - it isn't included in their spec - and will consider changing it when I know.
For some reason I thought the ifr on the one of those I played with was .035
You got other stuff first as Mr Ross says.
It is a pain to drop the pan since it is a 4WD with lots of stuff in the way, but if I do I can correct one bone head move I made by not installing the oil pump drive shaft from the bottom.
Man that sucks.... but I gotta say, I've dropped the driveshaft in the pan before and that sucks even more :P
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Drew - not sure how you get a driveshaft in an oil pan, but it sounds more exciting than a little piece of metal.
I bought the 3.5 because I was getting less than 6 inches of vacuum initially and figured the powervalve was probably open at idle - certainly at that time I could screw the mixture screws in until they were fully closed and it didn't make a difference so I assumed I was pulling fuel from somewhere.
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Drew - not sure how you get a driveshaft in an oil pan, but it sounds more exciting than a little piece of metal.
I bought the 3.5 because I was getting less than 6 inches of vacuum initially and figured the powervalve was probably open at idle - certainly at that time I could screw the mixture screws in until they were fully closed and it didn't make a difference so I assumed I was pulling fuel from somewhere.
*oil pump driveshaft :)
Paul - Holley's recommendation is 1/2 of idle vacuum, but to be honest that only works well in a narrow range of vehicles that pull between 10-15 inches of vacuum. When it pulls a lot of vacuum or not much, the recommendation is generally wrong.
If you drove that truck with a vacuum gauge, you'd likely find that it has a lot more than 6 inches during cruise, and doesn't drop below 3.5 unless you really were hammering it, which means it's closed and not adding fuel
Also, need to clarify the "fuel at idle" comment. A properly working PV cannot, will not, is unable to provide fuel at idle, even if wide open.
Think of the PV as a spring loaded extra main jet, not as a valve that dumps fuel into the engine. The way it works is, when your throttle plates are open, air rushes by the boosters and pulls fuel from the main jet, when vacuum drops past the PV value, the PV opens and adds extra fuel to that circuit (like a bigger main jet) it does NOT inject it on it's own.
So, when at idle, the throttle plates are closed, no air is rushing by the boosters, so no main jet fuel is being supplied, and if no main jet fuel is being supplied, even if the PV is open, no fuel goes to the engine
In your case, the PV was likely ruptured, so BEHIND the PV is a vacuum well. When it ruptures, fuel just runs into the engine and will flood like crazy. That undoubtedly was the issue with the flooding, not the PV value and not the PV being open at idle, it just doesn't work that way. So yes it was due to the PV, but not the reason you just stated.
Also, it is very easy to blow a PV, less so with the protection, but it doesn't take much, and if that little ball and spring sticks, or gets hit hard enough, they go away quickly.
One last thing, as a fellow 4x4 owner, be happy you can pull the pan, you wouldn't be able to in a 2WD 8)
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One last thing, as a fellow 4x4 owner, be happy you can pull the pan, you wouldn't be able to in a 2WD 8)
True statement. I wish all of Fords trucks were designed in the front like my '68 Highboy is. Easy access to the pan!
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Yup. if you drive like a sane person you'll never even use the power valve. For testing I've plugged it in order to get the perfect jet size without enrichment.
Here a cool picture (plus I'm trying out the photos on site)
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Yup. if you drive like a sane person you'll never even use the power valve. For testing I've plugged it in order to get the perfect jet size without enrichment.
Here a cool picture (plus I'm trying out the photos on site)
Why would I build a 445 if driving like a sane person was my goal? In any case I will pick up a new PV and put it in when I take of the carb next.
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i have to chime in on advancing cam timing i agree 100 percent on my 390 i went from 106 icl to 102 icl 160 psi cylinder pressure to 185 and gained 3 or 4 inches of vacuum ! runs much better now . on the 3.5 pv is too late if you drive with vacuum gage attached you will notice you have to get in the throttle abit before you need anymore enrichment you want to start opening the power valve in anticipation of a lean condition not after it occurs! but dont dwell on this until the other stuff is sorted
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Why would I build a 445 if driving like a sane person was my goal?
LMAO!! ;D
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Why would I build a 445 if driving like a sane person was my goal?
Where is the "like button" for this? 8)
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According to QFT that carb came with a .037 IFR. Drew - what is your suggestion for the first size I should try?
BTW - any suggestions for a clip to put on top of the oil pump drive? I don't think I can wander into an auto parts store and ask for one.
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According to QFT that carb came with a .037 IFR. Drew - what is your suggestion for the first size I should try?
BTW - any suggestions for a clip to put on top of the oil pump drive? I don't think I can wander into an auto parts store and ask for one.
Why are you changing the IFR? Leave it as delivered, the balance between IAB, IFR and transition slot matters and although that seems like a huge IFR, if that's how it came, why change?
As far as the clip, I'd just buy a new drive unless you can find the proper clip laying around the bench. If it breaks off and locks the oil pump or doesn't hold tight, it's not worth doing. Get a Ford Racing drive, or a stock style Melling and install it "clip up"
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Yup. if you drive like a sane person you'll never even use the power valve. For testing I've plugged it in order to get the perfect jet size without enrichment.
Why would I build a 445 if driving like a sane person was my goal? In any case I will pick up a new PV and put it in when I take of the carb next.
Funny, but misses the point entirely. Everyone says this, right up to the point when they are wanting to sell the vehicle because it's such a pain to drive in 98% of their usage and they are tired of tinkering with it.
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Drew - you are right about difficult to drive, and it was said more for a laugh. Having said that I built it to drive it like an idiot from time to time.
BTW - Ross asked why I'd consider messing with the IFR. I looked back at your first post on this thread and you strongly suggested a smaller IFR, thinking that the stock one was too large, and you recently said you thought it might be as big as 0.35. It is in fact .037, which I am guessing is bigger than you thought.
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the Q series that came in here to my shop were because they fouled plugs nonstop.
I know Mr lykins has an affinity for these Q carbs, and Ross is well beyond my experience level, so I was gonna bow out of this discussion.... I don't want to make any enemies or contradict what someone else is telling you.
The last thought I have to offer, get an ole reliable 3310 or heck even an 1850 from a friend, just to borrow, as long as it works and is clean ish. Toss it on.
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Drew - I actually agree with you that a .035 IFR is a monster, and in general, I don't love QFT after talking to the guys there, but lots of guys, including Brent have great luck. The issue I have with an IFR change is too many changes at once. Cam timing, PV, likely too much accel pump. More than that, don't worry about us arguing, you and RJP are the two guys I can really talk carbs with, happy to have different opinions. Just trying to slow the train down a bit on this repair.
Paul - The thing about an IFR is that the "idle" term can be misleading. The IFR feeds two circuits, idle and transition.
The idle circuit gets fuel from the IFR and air from the IAB and makes an emuslified (bubbly) mix that can easily fed to the motor. The amount of that mix is controlled by the idle screws, so, you can control idle a/f by the idle screws, even if the IFR is too big
The other circuit is the transition circuit, the vertical slots you showed us pictures of. Those provide fuel before the air starts flowing over the boosters enough to pull fuel in cleanly. Those are not adjustable, however, their reaction is controlled by the width of the slots, the amount of vacuum, the IFR size, as well as the IAB. Think of a soda straw with a hole in it. Big straw, small air hole in the side of it, suck hard, you get lots of soda pop. Small straw, big hole in the side, don't suck hard, you get little soda and lots of bubbles
You are changing how hard the engine sucks, and at the same time, going to change the overall idle a/f requirements and adjustments because of that, and verifying TDC, which could change the timing curve. (BTW, I know you say you have no reason to think it's bad, but you have to check with a piston stop, been a while fighting this engine and time to rule things out for good)
I think you "may" need to close the IFR, but because you are going to change how the engine behaves under it, I think you need to wait. The PV I'd change in a heartbeat, but if you didn't want to go inside the carb yet, that would be understandable in the "1 change at a time" logic
The big thing here is when you advance the cam, there are going to be significant changes. If I had the truck here, this is how I would attack as a first step.
1 - Advance the cam
2 - Verify TDC with a piston stop (no other way)
3 - I'd likely return the carb to QFT original delivery if it's sitting on the bench, however I'd call that optional, especially if it's still bolted on. If it wasn't on the bench, I'd likely just fire it up
4 - Set initial timing and verify the curve is correct, especially if TDC needed to be marked. If you have vac advance, hook it up after you set timing to ported vacuum, ad make sure vacuum is dead at idle.
5 - Adjust idle a/f and idle speed, somewhere around 800 for that cam
6 - Road test and gather information for next change
Now, the issue I have though is you haven't posted the list we are going to work off of, so all I am doing is pushing you to higher vacuum and a proper set up If there are other issues, then I may adjust. Better to "plan the fight, then fly the plan" right now, I think we are looking at each symptom separately, so when able, really would like to see a complete complaint list.
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Agree completely with Ross that you've got to get the basics nailed down first (cam position established/moved, timing/curve, idle adjustment) otherwise you're wasting time since it will have a pretty drastic effect on the carb.
Mainly I just wanted to comment to ask Ross if he's gotten that smoking problem fixed in his car? Really, it's embarrassing 8)
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I haven't done the list, but I also haven't done anything to the engine - yesterday was spent at medical meetings about my wife and brother.
I am going to pick up a new oil pan gasket, if I can get one, a new oil pump drive, and a gear puller today and will move the cam. I promise I won't do anything else at the same time. I will also post the list of issues I had before I moved the cam, and any changes since moving the cam.
Then, with the list put up here, I'll consult with my betters on what to tackle first. Question about IFR size was related to getting some parts for when I eventually take the carb off and start making changes. I will want a small bunch of parts on hand rather than make repeated trips to the pats store. In particular I was asking QFT about the IFR size because it is one thing I don't know about the carb because QFT don't list it in the specs.
Next up, oil pan, oil pump drive shaft, finish pulling the timing set, find TDC with my piston stop, set up the timing and confirm cam is in the correct (advanced 4 degrees) position, and button up the front and bottom of the engine. Then I'll drive it with the carb as is and report back.
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Mainly I just wanted to comment to ask Ross if he's gotten that smoking problem fixed in his car? Really, it's embarrassing 8)
It's funny too, must be blow-by because the pipes are nice and clean :)
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One thing to keep in mind is that when the cam gets advanced and one gets better intake vacuum the increased vacuum will suck more fuel on the same size IFR and shore foul the plugs even moor. Get the carb set up like a old school Holley 750 DP, i am first thinking of E-bleed configuration and IFR / IAB . Also important to have the IFR in the lower position if not already so. IFR in size 033-035 and IAB 068-070 is a close calibration.. Use size 028 fore E-bleeds. Only E-bleed #1 and #3 if it is a 3 ore 4 hole metering block and #1 and #4 if it is a #5 hole metering block plug the rest. MJ and powervalve same thing old school Holley to begin with pri 72 sec 80, powervalve 6.5 in front and you will be much happier
The UNIVERSAL carbys from QFT and adders this days are useley very stinking rich on everything that's being used for any kind of street driving.
The old school Holley 750 is a very good "drivers carb" right out of the box, and if you are not hunting fore the last top end horse powers its hard to beet with anything, maybe except for the 780 VS if one can set it up to function properly for ones combo
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One thing to keep in mind is that when the cam gets advanced and one gets better intake vacuum the increased vacuum will suck more fuel on the same size IFR and shore foul the plugs even moor. Get the carb set up like a old school Holley 750 DP, i am first thinking of E-bleed configuration and IFR / IAB . Also important to have the IFR in the lower position if not already so. IFR in size 033-035 and IAB 068-070 is a close calibration.. Use size 028 fore E-bleeds. Only E-bleed #1 and #3 if it is a 3 ore 4 hole metering block and #1 and #4 if it is a #5 hole metering block plug the rest. MJ and powervalve same thing old school Holley to begin with pri 72 sec 80, powervalve 6.5 in front and you will be much happier
The UNIVERSAL carbys from QFT and adders this days are useley very stinking rich on everything that's being used for any kind of street driving.
The old school Holley 750 is a very good "drivers carb" right out of the box, and if you are not hunting fore the last top end horse powers its hard to beet with anything, maybe except for the 780 VS if one can set it up to function properly for ones combo
I agree with everything you said, especially the low IFR and IFR size in general, however, I believe that his flooding stopped after the PV change.
Not to mention, as RJP and I had in a side discussion, he could have had a plugged air bleed as well that was cleaned during the carb work. I really recommend we do not tell him how the carb should be set up yet and get some data after the engine is building some vacuum.
Although I fully expect that the PV needs to be changed to a 6.5, we may find that it does OK with the current emulsion and idle configuration, many QFTs do just fine
In the end though, the advice you gave is my general procedure, but a new guy making multiple changes at once will likely cause more confusion
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I fully agree in the term don't change more then one thing at a time ore you don't know what and so on, but i strongly believe that most of thous "newer" "trick"carbs are so way of that its easier to just get it all done right as close as possible from the beginning in stead of chasing a wrong jet/bleed at a time. they are "all over the place". I dont think its more difficult-harder to do the carb right from the beginning than all the other stuff with lifters/rockers adjustment and cam degree ing and distributor fixing Paul had to go throe. The "mechanic" job is pretty straight forward in the carby, knowing what size on the different jets/bleeds takes more experience and knowhow, and that's one off the reasons i say go back to old Holley configuration to start with they are seldom wrong. anyway there is plenty of people on here to take care of that like you your self Ross and Drew fore an example, and a others as well. First i was going to keep my noose out of it because i know you gat Paul all "covered" in this too, then i thought on what Paul sead him self better get it all at ones then going several trips to get what needed.
At least i think its essential to get the carb all "MAPPED" so one know whats really is in it to start with, fore fur der calibration suggestions.
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Progress report:
I got the timing set off and the oil pan and oil pump dropped. Got the new oil pump drive in place and the pump loose fit in place. I'll torque it up and put the oil feed tube back on Saturday. Got the front of the engine clean and the oil pan scraped and wire brushed so I can put it back on when I have the timing cover back on place.
The oil pan was tricky, I also have the power assist system off an early 70's - the ram and hydraulic valve assembly. It takes up a lot of room so I'll have to do a test install of the pan before I try it with the gasket.
In addition to the oil drive I picked up a 5.5 QFT power valve today. Don't see them very often so I grabbed it. With respect to doing one thing at a time, do rest assured that I am following this process. I did decide to clean up the problem with the oil drive being installed incorrectly since I had to clean out the inside of the oil pan, but that is IT.
I am asking about carb parts so I can stockpile some parts. It is a HUGE pain in the ass to have to drive out 5 times for one small part of a project, so having what I'll need on hand is the plan. I do think I'll pull the carb off for that stage, and I will confirm what is in it against my list of what I think is in it.
I am not keen to go back to stock because it was so rich it fouled the plugs every time I drove it. I'm currently on my 6th set of plugs with less than 3 hours of running time on the engine. These are the first that are not black with oily soot. However I am open to reconsidering given that some of you have done this hundreds of times and I'm still on my first.
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Maybe jack the truck up a bit to let the axle hang to get more room for the pan?
Also, did you get the timing gear moved? Remember, you really should check it with the degree wheel again, no assuming
As far as the PV, no need to beat a dead horse, but "going back to stock" with the PV will not cause the rich condition you had. I feel like I keep saying the same thing over, but here is a different discussion. The PV circuit does two things. 1 - Time when the PV enrichment adds fuel to the mains, and 2 - Controls how much fuel goes to the main jet circuit.
The PV itself only controls timing. So your 3.5 gives the same amount of fuel, it just gives it later. IF, you are getting TOO MUCH fuel from the PV, then there are restrictors behind it that can be changed. Small jets (PVCR = power valve channel restrictors) that control the amount from the that is added to the main jet. However, for a street vehicle, typically you have some room to jet down so that it burns clean until you add a load, then the PVCRs add fuel. So, if you really believe there is a PV fuel issue (I am not sure there is, I think yours was blown from the backfiring) then I would start by looking behind the PV to see if someone left a restrictor out completely.
Now, why all this stink from me about the PV? At higher throttle openings, the engine is running on main jet. You want it to burn lean for mileage on a street vehicle, when you roll in, like climbing a hill or passing, you want the extra fuel to kick in. With a 3.5 PV, you likely will never get that fuel. If the engine doesn't need it, then you have too much main jet (but we know that isn't the case)
So I will eventually give up trying to talk you into setting the carb up correctly :) but, I am still with you, looking forward to hearing what you come up with this weekend. The cam timing should get you some throttle response and make it easier to tune.
If you pull apart the carb, you will likely need float bowl gaskets, metering block gaskets, and the PV. However, as a carb stays together a long time, things tend to stick. So taking it apart to check on things inside will likely mean you have to replace all those gaskets even if you don't want to. If it was me, I'd either leave it for now, or I'd just set it up correctly before you fire the motor. I know it counters what I originally said, but there is no real reason to take it apaprt multiple times and risk stripping a float bowl thread or potentially warping a metering surface from overtightening.
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Listen to Ross.
He is telling you good things.
He is accurate.
You do not need a 3.5 power valve.
Put it back together with the cam advanced, the timing marker verified, and drive it before making huge alterations.
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Ross, I thought I was following your advice. I'm not touching the carb at present but was going to drive it and report its behaviour post cam adjustment. I did hear you that I needed a bigger power valve and I thought I saw you or Drew say a 5.5 or 6 PV was needed, so when I saw a 5.5 I grabbed it. It was only $10 so cheaper than driving back to get it later. Based on your post I now regret deciding not to pick up a package of metering block and float body gaskets. I did pick up a couple of intake gaskets since they tend to perish each time I dismount the carb.
I did jack up the truck to get at the pan, it is still hanging with the wheels 2 inches off the ground. I'm off to the hospital - Fridays I help my brother with his therapy to give his wife a day off.
I do look forward to your tutelage on the carb as reading David Vizard's book is helpful but not a substitute for doing it. What would help is some direction about what parts I should plan to have on hand. I have a bit of time before I move to the carb, but do you think I should put the 5.5 PV in or go and try and find a 6.5 that it came with? In fact, are you urging me to go all the way back to bone stock? If so, won't it return to stinking rich and fouling plugs?
I think I'd have to order a 6.5, I didn't see one on the shelf.
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Deleted duplicate.
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Don't drag me into this :P :P
I'd be redoing everything like Tobbemec stated.
my recipe for this carb as a starting point is the same as his pretty much. I wouldn't even decide a PV opening point until I drive the car/truck at cruise and roll into wot with a Vac gauge hooked up.
I'm too poor to have fancy tools like distributor machines, dynos, flow benches, etc so I just use a vehicle for testing.
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OK, so get her running and we'll go from there. I think you'll end up with a 6.5, but, let's see what your vacuum is and how it behaves when you get it back together.
Just to clarify one more time, no such thing as a bigger power valve. That's my point, its an earlier (bigger number) or later (smaller number) opening, so trying to explain that there is no need to fear a number change. Only a bad power valve or something else could cause the rich situation you saw before the PV swap
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Ok, will do. BTW I did read your very good explanation and I really meant "bigger number".
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Question about setting the cam to 4 degrees advanced. I have a Ford Racing timing set, and it has additional keyways marked A2, A4, A6, and A8 as well as R2, R4, R6, and R8. There are also corresponding marks (circles hammered into the gear) for each of the additional keyways.
Am I correct in thinking I need to find TDC on the crank, then make sure I know I'm on TDC at the start of the compression phase of the cam, and at that point I retard the crank by 4 degrees and slide the A4 keyway on the crank gear over the Woodruff key, and the cam dot and the crank A4 dot should be aligned?
Then after finding TDC on the crank again, check the cam events to confirm it comes in 4 degrees ahead of where the card calls for (0.050 open occurs at 13 BTDC instead of 9, and 0.050 closing occures at 41 degrees ADTC instead of 45).
I started on it this evening but was tired and making mistakes so thought I'd start fresh tomorrow.
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Question about setting the cam to 4 degrees advanced. I have a Ford Racing timing set, and it has additional keyways marked A2, A4, A6, and A8 as well as R2, R4, R6, and R8. There are also corresponding marks (circles hammered into the gear) for each of the additional keyways.
Am I correct in thinking I need to find TDC on the crank, then make sure I know I'm on TDC at the start of the compression phase of the cam, and at that point I retard the crank by 4 degrees and slide the A4 keyway on the crank gear over the Woodruff key, and the cam dot and the crank A4 dot should be aligned?
Then after finding TDC on the crank again, check the cam events to confirm it comes in 4 degrees ahead of where the card calls for (0.050 open occurs at 13 BTDC instead of 9, and 0.050 closing occures at 41 degrees ADTC instead of 45).
I started on it this evening but was tired and making mistakes so thought I'd start fresh tomorrow.
I think you are correct but overthinking it, just line up the marks that are there now before you take it apart. If you already took it apart, start at step 3 below, there is no reason to find any compression stroke, when a pair of marks are lined up, the cam is phased correctly.
1 - Rotate the motor until the current timing marks line up.
2 - Pull the crank gear (have to pull the cam gear too to allow it to move)
3 - Turn the lower gear to put the crank key in the A4 slot
4 - Install the upper gear temporarily and realign the marks. Use the A4 mark and the dot on the upper gear
5 - Put the chain back on. Loctite the cam bolt
6 - Check valve events just like you stated
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Well I'll file this under "Learn something new everyday". A2, A4, A6, and A8 must refer to advancing the CRANK, which retards the cam. You can see in the picture that the crank is ahead of the cam. I think the whole idea was the other way around!
Back at it after lunch.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4413/36978035632_c2886d0585_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/YkC6Gu)IMG_3406 (https://flic.kr/p/YkC6Gu) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
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I do not think you are correct, but you can check when you degree it.
The 4A position should advance the cam timing. In the end though, the degree wheel will tell you.
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This is confusing me. Clearly the yellow dots show the cam gear came through advanced, but the dial indicator is showing the lifter reaches 0.050 opening at 7 degrees BTDC, and it reaches 0.050 closing at 49 degrees ATDC. It had been 8 BTDC and 45 ATDC, so I'm getting a slightly different duration than my last measurement, but the lift looks correct and it returns to the same positions on multiple rotations.
I also moved the dial indicator to make sure I had it set up correctly and it came back to the same values. I also rechecked TDC and had at most 1/2 a degree of difference.
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So you advanced it 4 degrees, but it retarded 2 degrees?
Check the wheel again, make sure TDC is correct. You are using a piston stop to determine TDC right?
Also, did you verify before you started, to include tweaking the wire that points to the wheel to make sure the wheel was exactly correlated to TDC?
If TDC is right and the wheel is on right with the wire adjusted exactly, try another notch LOL see what happens. You could have a mis machined set, but that would have to have that groove 6 degrees off. My hunch is you tweaked setup a little this time
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Before you replied I went back and did it all over, tightening up my technique.
I am using a piston stop and it is very consistently giving me a 57 degree sweep (28.5 before and after TDC) so I'm pretty confident I that. I also will re-check TDC if I so much as brush the pointer. I have had a lot of practice with it.
Before I was doing the measurements without hammering the crank gear all the way on - just until the key was flush with the front of the gear, and partly tightening the can gear down.
I thought it was more likely I was doing it wrong by cheating than the parts were wrong, also I had doubts about using an extension on the dial indicator. I went back to the 6 degree advance keyway and hammered the gear all the way to the back of the crank, mounted the chain and cam gear dot to dot, and tightened it down snug. Then I changed the dial indicator to a short tip with a sharp conical tip on the end, and fitted it down into the pushrod sitting in the lifter.
My results were very similar to the cam installed dot to dot - 0.050 opening occurs at 8 degrees (compared to 9 on the card) and it closes 0.050 at 46 ABDC (I think I put the wrong value above), and it does it consistently.
The A4 keyway did not advance the cam compared to the straight up keyway. Time to do as you suggest and move it to A6, but I think I'll try straight up again first and see what it shows when I measure it the same way.
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Well I'll file this under "Learn something new everyday". A2, A4, A6, and A8 must refer to advancing the CRANK, which retards the cam. You can see in the picture that the crank is ahead of the cam. I think the whole idea was the other way around!
Back at it after lunch.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4413/36978035632_c2886d0585_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/YkC6Gu)IMG_3406 (https://flic.kr/p/YkC6Gu) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
Do those yellow dots line up when the dot on the crank gear is in the 12:00 position?
Using the "A" keyways will definitely advance the cam timing. You should be putting the dot at 12:00, not the keyway. You'll see then that when you move the crankshaft CCW to do that, the cam will indeed be ahead of the crank.
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Brent, the dots are lined up, or more specifically, the gear teeth they are aligned with. That picture mostly showed my inexperience, it clearly shows the cam gear is advanced relative to the crank.
I just took it back to the 0 keyway and measured it again. It should have been the same as before I dismantled everything, but I am showing the intake open 0.050 at 3 degrees instead of 8 and closed 0.050 at 52 degrees ABDC.
I am now thinking about what to do. Clearly these measurements are different than before I took it apart. I think I should just do the 4 degree advance and put it back together.
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For the avoidance of mistakes by me...(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4439/36756581710_b5c3b06837_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Y146aq)IMG_3354 (https://flic.kr/p/Y146aq) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
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Ok, I was just making sure that wasn't the issue.
I wouldn't make any rash changes. You have to get to a point where you're confident with your measurements and can repeat them.
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I'm getting consistent results, they just are not what I expected. I just went back and moved the indicator, re-zeroed it, and ran the sequence again. 0.050 open at 3 BTDC and 0.050 closed at 50 ABDC, max lift is .337, so the readings are consistent. What is different is I'm using a pushrod and a conical tip to keep it centered and lined up.
The pushrod gets a better seat in the lifter.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4435/36318235834_4eaea8c2d0_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XkjscU)IMG_3407 (https://flic.kr/p/XkjscU) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
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So you're showing 6 degrees retarded from where it should be. Cam card says it should open 9 degrees BTDC and it's opening at 3.
What happens if you put the crank gear on A6?
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Haven't tried 6 yet, took a break for dinner. I'll do that next.
BTW, when I had it on the A4 keyway I was getting more or less what the card called for - 8 BTDC and 46 ABDC is only one degree off the card.
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BTW, this is the essence of engine building. Take measurements, be comfortable with them, then make it do what you want it to do.
Its rare but I've seen more than a handful of combinations where the tolerances just stacked up. Crank may have been out, cam may have been ground wrong, timing set may have been off.
I have put more than one crank gear on in an 8 deg advanced or 8 deg retarded keyway to make it right.
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Then if you're comfortable with your measurements and the A4 keyway made it right, then you can put it there.
I have missed a lot of the dialogue between you and Ross but if the math shows that it would work, I'd run that cam way ahead....like on a 104-106 ICL.
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Put that thing in the A6 position and recheck your measurements. If you notice, the cam card is spec'd for events when installed at 108 ICL. I bet everything just "comes in" at A6 or A4. After you get done verifying the open and close event you can go ahead and recheck using the centerline method. Even though some folks might say it won't work with an assymetrical lobe I bet it comes in right where it's supposed to with the open and close events right. I have degreed that cam a couple of times...
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Could this thing be going funky from the hyd lifter?
It'd be nice if there was a way to reach down and push off the body
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If he's just pushing a dial indicator, I don't think it would compress the lifter.
His lobe lift measurements also match cam card.
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Done for today - and not much less confused.
A4 shows open at 8, close at 47, and peak of 0.338 (note this is slightly higher than the cam card calls for but I am getting it consistently with each test) starting at 110 and continuing to 116.
A6 shows open at 10, close at 45, and peak lift starting at 108.
The cam card is right between A4 and A6. I check TDC before and after measuring for each position with the piston stop.
I won't get back at it until tomorrow afternoon, at which time I need to make a decision and button it up because on Tuesday it rains (hooray, forest fires are out of hand) and the truck is outside.
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looks like a6 is your straight up! goes to show how important it is to check your parts ! if this happened to me when i built my motor i would have been screwed there was no fe forum i could picture myself in the garage staring at the wall wondering why i didnt do an ls motor. NOT!!!! anyway good luck! that thing will be a bear when your done !
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You can button it up and know that you're pretty stinkin close to the card or you can stick it on an a8 keyway and advance it a little more.
Comet, "straight up" actually means that the ICL equals the LSA. He isn't straight up right now, he's actually around 2 degrees advanced. I'm only stating that because a lot of guys call putting the cam in the way it's ground "putting it in straight up" and although that term is thrown around a lot, it's technically incorrect.
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looks like a6 is your straight up! goes to show how important it is to check your parts ! if this happened to me when i built my motor i would have been screwed there was no fe forum i could picture myself in the garage staring at the wall wondering why i didnt do an ls motor. NOT!!!! anyway good luck! that thing will be a bear when your done !
A6 it is. I bet it runs far better. Timing chains stretch in service so it will retard a bit over time.
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Just because I like to do readbacks....military aviator in me...
So you were at an intake opening point of 7 BTDC when you started...and now you are at 10 BTDC, and you are comfortable with your process and it was repeatable?
If the answer is yes, then it should make a difference, but you could even go to the next slot too and check it I certainly would, using DCR calcs and 9.98:1 static compression with a 445, you went from to 7.37:1 to 7.61:1 in the A6 position, another 2 degrees (likely A8 with your gear set) will bring you to 7.74 and will drive the vacuum and torque, especially part throttle, even higher.
As far as a cause, looks like you either have a cam that was ground a little goofy, a keyway in the crank that's a little off, or an oddly made timing set. In any case, that really explains your low vacuum
Just to be 100% clear, I would certainly feel better where you are, but if you are confident your numbers are right, I'd be shooting for more (as originally planned) given the application
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You can button it up and know that you're pretty stinkin close to the card or you can stick it on an a8 keyway and advance it a little more.
Comet, "straight up" actually means that the ICL equals the LSA. He isn't straight up right now, he's actually around 2 degrees advanced. I'm only stating that because a lot of guys call putting the cam in the way it's ground "putting it in straight up" and although that term is thrown around a lot, it's technically incorrect.
Just saw this one, I agree with going with the A8...heck I'd go more if I could...and a big "AMEN" on the straight up definition :) Commonly misused
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I have to run to a cardiac stress test for my wife, but I'll ask this now so I can get on with it when I get back - how do I ensure the two gears are aligned when installing? I noticed in my test fits that when tightened down there was a little friction on the chain releasing from the lower sprocket on the "loose" side causing it to catch on the gear. I assume a clean release is the goal.
I am assuming the timing gear only goes on one way (timing marks to the front) and there is nothing to space either gear away from the block.
I have the Ford shop manual and it calls for 34 to 45 ft-lbs of torque on the camshaft gear to camshaft bolt and damper to crank bolt it calls for 70 to 90 ft-lbs. Are these values correct for the aftermarket cam and crank?
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Timing gears go with dots/marks to the outside.
Sometimes it's helpful to back the crank gear out a little bit so you can get the cam gear started on the cam without shoving the cam back in the block. Get the crank gear on, get the dot at 12:00, put the cam gear and chain on (with the dot pointing down towards the dot on the crank gear), get your bolt started (with Loctite), snug it up, then take a drift/punch/etc. and push the crank gear on all the way. Tighten the cam bolt up and torque.
Everytime I bolt one up, I will take a 4-5" straightedge and lay it across the faces of both gears to make sure they're flush with each other. Helps point out any issues (mainly with SBF engines).
Cam bolt torques to 65 lb-ft.
I torque aftermarket balancer bolts to 125 lb-ft.
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On A8 I'm seeing open 0.050 at 11 BTDC, close 0.050 at 43 ABDC, and peak lift of .337 at 104 ATDC. Looks kosher.
Brent, thanks for your instructions. When I was happy with the timing I put a small straight(ish) edge on it and the cam was more than 1/8 deeper than the crank, hammered it back with a drift, then the cam was high, tightened it down and they are level and the chain releases freely.
I have some blue Locktite, is that adequate for the cam bolt? Also, my ARP cam bolt has a flat, red, translucent, plastic band, about 1/4 inch wide about halfway down the bolt. I have no recollection of this from the initial install. Any idea what it is? Ads for the bolt on Summit don't show this. Could it have been in the cam?
Picture is worth a few words:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4347/36778113890_2896220326_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Y2XrVU)IMG_3417 (https://flic.kr/p/Y2XrVU) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
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That red band is dried red loctite
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Well no much wonder I don't remember it. Guess that answers my other question - I need red locktite!
Thank you Barry.
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Use red.... take it off with air tools :P
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So, call me nervous but
That cam, installed dot to dot should have an .050 intake valve opening of 9 BTDC, 8 advanced "should" be 17 BTDC, but you are at 11 BTDC
So something is off by 6 degrees. I am OK with that, but have never seen a combo with a modern cam that far off.
Here is my statement and if you are confident, good enough for me. If this was in my shop, I would take the degree kit, piston stop, and put all the parts back on the bench. Then I would do a complete fresh setup, including the piston stop and finding TDC, maybe even changing how I mounted the wire so I had to change procedures.
Then I would verify my valve events, if they are still good, great, but since you aren't checking valve clearance, I think it is incredibly important to maike sure you didn't make a mistake.
If that cam is on 100 ICL because you repeated an error, you may bend all the intake valves at start up. If you are sure, I will be quiet, but as good as it has come in, I am concerned of that much variance
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Double checking would be prudent. If it's repeatable with a new setup, you're gold.
I have seen a hand full of combos be that far out with all new parts. Just ran into one the other day that I had to retard 8 degrees to get it on spec.
If this was a solid cam, I'd say pull the plugs and put a couple of .100" shims between the rockers and valve stems. If it would roll over with no issue, then I'd call it good. With a juice lifter it's a little more tricky.
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"Juice lifter" took me a second.
Ross - I pretty much did as you say. Took everything off the engine, moved the position of the degree wheel and indicator wire so I was looking at it from a different position, confirmed TDC with the piston stop (for about the 20th time - I think I may be wearing a notch in #1), adjusted the angles on the degree wheel and pushrod to make sure I had a clean up/down position, confirmed zero and peak lift over 4 revolutions, and then took the measurements on A6 again, then took it apart and did A8.
Was considering doing the clearance check - I have a crappy borescope but it doesn't work well enough to use to watch the clearance while turning the engine.
If I do the clearance check I have a dumb question - I've seen videos on using air pressure into the spark plug hole to keep the valve from falling in. If the piston is at TDC won't it prevent the valve from dropping into the cylinder? I'll have to pick up a tool to remove the spring and find some test springs but I should be able to.
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Theoretically it's fine to just put it at TDC, but can be funky when you try to get the keepers back on because the valve can drop a little and it's difficult to grab the valve to reassemble.
Air is easy, also you can take clothes line rope and pushing it in the hole and lightly load the head of the valve buy turning the motor
I'd really like to see you check clearance as outlined earlier, it would give you peace of mind and whether it feels like it or not, you are doing very good and precise work, may as well keep it going through fire up
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I'm leaning towards doing the check, my reason is it really bothers me that my first measurements before taking it apart indicated the cam was behaving as per the cam card, but when I pulled the gears to advance it and re-measured I had funny numbers until I stopped using the 5 inch extension on the dial and went to using the pushrod. Since that change all my measurements have been repeatable, but it worries me.
Are the checking springs specific to an FE? One other question - do you think this will do to get the springs and retainers off?
https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/wmr-w84001/overview/ (https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/wmr-w84001/overview/)
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i had a RPM 4.250 stroke crank that had the keyway slot machined 8 degrees off tdc.
I timed the thing 2 many times to prove to myself that the error was the keyway slot.
Check then double check.
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I'm leaning towards doing the check, my reason is it really bothers me that my first measurements before taking it apart indicated the cam was behaving as per the cam card, but when I pulled the gears to advance it and re-measured I had funny numbers until I stopped using the 5 inch extension on the dial and went to using the pushrod. Since that change all my measurements have been repeatable, but it worries me.
Are the checking springs specific to an FE? One other question - do you think this will do to get the springs and retainers off?
https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/wmr-w84001/overview/ (https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/wmr-w84001/overview/)
That will work just fine, especially given that you only have one (maybe 2) to take off, they work great just slow if trying to do many
I am not sure what to tell you on your procedures, however, if in doubt, the best thing you can do is check clearance from 15 BTDC until 5 ATDC, no rockers, just pushing it down and measuring.
Checking springs just need to hold things up, rocker springs, something you can find at the hardware store, it just basically has to be a little longer than 2 inches uncompressed and soft enough for you to push down easy
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The springs that's betwen the rockers
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Heo - no springs on the T&D rockers.
Ross, the check springs from Comp are about $4, easier than looking around. Just want to avoid buying a size that won't work. I did read the instructions the first time - checking at 15, 10, 5, TDC, and -5, -10.
I have a pressure tester, need to see what it will take to adapt that hose to my air compressor. May need a fitting.
My plan for now is to assume the valves will clear and put the timing cover and oil pan on today and wait for the rains to pass before I install the rocker to test clearance on #1. I will test it before firing. Worst case I have to throw away some gaskets, but in the mean time the engine will stay clean and dry.
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heo meant the rocker shaft springs from stock rockers i found suitable pair at sears hardware an old time hardware store usually has a good selection of springs home depot lowes not so much!
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Heo - no springs on the T&D rockers.
Ross, the check springs from Comp are about $4, easier than looking around. Just want to avoid buying a size that won't work. I did read the instructions the first time - checking at 15, 10, 5, TDC, and -5, -10.
I have a pressure tester, need to see what it will take to adapt that hose to my air compressor. May need a fitting.
My plan for now is to assume the valves will clear and put the timing cover and oil pan on today and wait for the rains to pass before I install the rocker to test clearance on #1. I will test it before firing. Worst case I have to throw away some gaskets, but in the mean time the engine will stay clean and dry.
Just to reiterate, you do NOT install a rocker to check clearance. If you do, you run the risk of compressing the lifter and getting a bad reading, not to mention parts hitting if it's wrong
1 - No rockers, bring the engine to 15 BTDC
2 - Measure height of valve retainer to head
3 - Push valve down until it hits piston and hold, measure vale retainer to head
4 - Subtract the two amounts (example #2 measures 1.90 minus #3 measurement 1.20 =.700
5 - Subtract valve lift from that .700 - .540 = .160 write it down
6 - Repeat at 10 BTDC, 5 BTDC, O, etc until it starts getting bigger, bring numbers here
I would do it with the degree wheel still hooked up, setup will take longer than the measuring
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Thanks for catching that, Ross. I would have eventually noticed that either a) I couldn't remove the spring with the rocker in place, or b) with the spring missing the rocker wasn't going to do anything.
Comet2 - I knew what he meant, I meant I don't have any of those. Gave all my spares to a buddy who does junkyard builds.
I got it sealed up before the rain hits. Man do we need it. Those folks in Texas and Florida are getting all of it and we are getting none. Prairie and foothills are on fire and the smell of grass and wood smoke is overpowering. I'll let it sit a few days before I touch it again, will give me time to scrounge up the tools and a spring.
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Does anyone know of a valve spring tester for an FE that you do not have to remove the springs to test, just the rocker shafts. I have 700 lb springs for my solid roller cam in my 427 Falcon and I drive it a lot on the street so I need to check the springs. I have Isky EZ Roll bushing lifters so I am not worried about them.
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Heo - no springs on the T&D rockers.
Ross, the check springs from Comp are about $4, easier than looking around. Just want to avoid buying a size that won't work. I did read the instructions the first time - checking at 15, 10, 5, TDC, and -5, -10.
I have a pressure tester, need to see what it will take to adapt that hose to my air compressor. May need a fitting.
My plan for now is to assume the valves will clear and put the timing cover and oil pan on today and wait for the rains to pass before I install the rocker to test clearance on #1. I will test it before firing. Worst case I have to throw away some gaskets, but in the mean time the engine will stay clean and dry.
Just to reiterate, you do NOT install a rocker to check clearance. If you do, you run the risk of compressing the lifter and getting a bad reading, not to mention parts hitting if it's wrong
1 - No rockers, bring the engine to 15 BTDC
2 - Measure height of valve retainer to head
3 - Push valve down until it hits piston and hold, measure vale retainer to head
4 - Subtract the two amounts (example #2 measures 1.90 minus #3 measurement 1.20 =.700
5 - Subtract valve lift from that .700 - .540 = .160 write it down
6 - Repeat at 10 BTDC, 5 BTDC, O, etc until it starts getting bigger, bring numbers here
I would do it with the degree wheel still hooked up, setup will take longer than the measuring
How does that work when there's no where near that much lift at any of those points, and the lift is changing as the valve is opening and closing?
IMO there is no way you can check valve to piston clearance without a rocker.
The only correct way to do this is with checking springs or a solid lifter. It doesn't matter if the lifter is the same height...all you need is the right length pushrod -IF- you're not willing to change springs. If you're going to run a light checking spring then a hyd lifter should be fine. Go through your lifters and check to find one that has oil in it and is "solid" (doesn't squish) and use that one just to make sure.
Honestly, I'm guessing you're way OK with vp clearance and you could just use the clay method to verify. This is getting WAY overcomplicated.
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I'm leaning towards doing the check, my reason is it really bothers me that my first measurements before taking it apart indicated the cam was behaving as per the cam card, but when I pulled the gears to advance it and re-measured I had funny numbers until I stopped using the 5 inch extension on the dial and went to using the pushrod. Since that change all my measurements have been repeatable, but it worries me.
Are the checking springs specific to an FE? One other question - do you think this will do to get the springs and retainers off?
https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/wmr-w84001/overview/ (https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/wmr-w84001/overview/)
Just a heads up on that compressor...it won't work with dual springs which I see you have. It'll compress the outer but not the inner. You can push down on the retainer by hand once the outer is compressed but it's a bit of a PITA. The one shown on ebay looks like a really nice tool.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Valve-Spring-Compressor-Ford-FE-390-427-428-Cobra-Jet-Mach-1-Shelby-/263193719838?hash=item3d4791741e:m:mTOEokGjjrI1HKVObBD73mA
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You can button it up and know that you're pretty stinkin close to the card or you can stick it on an a8 keyway and advance it a little more.
Comet, "straight up" actually means that the ICL equals the LSA. He isn't straight up right now, he's actually around 2 degrees advanced. I'm only stating that because a lot of guys call putting the cam in the way it's ground "putting it in straight up" and although that term is thrown around a lot, it's technically incorrect.
"Straight up" to me always meant that the cam is in as the card says it should be.
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You can button it up and know that you're pretty stinkin close to the card or you can stick it on an a8 keyway and advance it a little more.
Comet, "straight up" actually means that the ICL equals the LSA. He isn't straight up right now, he's actually around 2 degrees advanced. I'm only stating that because a lot of guys call putting the cam in the way it's ground "putting it in straight up" and although that term is thrown around a lot, it's technically incorrect.
"Straight up" to me always meant that the cam is in as the card says it should be.
The term comes from how the cam sits in the engine. If you visualize a line splitting the LSA, the cam sits centered in the engine, or straight up. LSA=ICL=ECL Advanced or retarded leans that line and the lobes toward one direction or another. Installed as designed is just that
(http://tildentechnologies.com/Cams/images/twolobes.gif)
Here is a better way to describe it from the web:
Cam Advance - the position of the midpoint between intake and exhaust lobes relative to TDC. A cam with timing 25-65-65-25 has no advance and is said to be "straight up". If the same cam is advanced 4 degrees, its timing becomes 29-61-69-21. The intake and exhaust centerlines are now at 106 ATDC and 114 BTDC respectively.
So 112 LSA cam, installed straight up would have a 112 ECL and 112 ICL. Although I agree that many people use the term incorrectly, and I found as many incorrect examples as correct ones when I did a search for the term just now, there can only be one straight up once you visualize what it is saying. It has nothing to do with the advance the cam grinder builds into the cam, it's how the builder chooses to install it relative to the fixed LSA
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So who's to say who's right?
One way, the cam is ground "straight up" or not. The other way, the cam is installed "straight up", or not.
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You can button it up and know that you're pretty stinkin close to the card or you can stick it on an a8 keyway and advance it a little more.
Comet, "straight up" actually means that the ICL equals the LSA. He isn't straight up right now, he's actually around 2 degrees advanced. I'm only stating that because a lot of guys call putting the cam in the way it's ground "putting it in straight up" and although that term is thrown around a lot, it's technically incorrect.
"Straight up" to me always meant that the cam is in as the card says it should be.
The term comes from how the cam sits in the engine. If you visualize a line splitting the LSA, the cam sits centered in the engine, or straight up. LSA=ICL=ECL Advanced or retarded leans that line and the lobes toward one direction or another. Installed as designed is just that
(http://tildentechnologies.com/Cams/images/twolobes.gif)
Here is a better way to describe it from the web:
Cam Advance - the position of the midpoint between intake and exhaust lobes relative to TDC. A cam with timing 25-65-65-25 has no advance and is said to be "straight up". If the same cam is advanced 4 degrees, its timing becomes 29-61-69-21. The intake and exhaust centerlines are now at 106 ATDC and 114 BTDC respectively.
So 112 LSA cam, installed straight up would have a 112 ECL and 112 ICL. Although I agree that many people use the term incorrectly, and I found as many incorrect examples as correct ones when I did a search for the term just now, there can only be one straight up once you visualize what it is saying. It has nothing to do with the advance the cam grinder builds into the cam, it's how the builder chooses to install it relative to the fixed LSA
That is correct.
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So who's to say who's right?
One way, the cam is ground "straight up" or not. The other way, the cam is installed "straight up", or not.
Well, all I can say is what exactly is "straight" if you install it as ground?
No matter what you do to affect cam timing, offset bushings, different slots in the gear, the 2 dots are always "straight" on the cam gear, and any cam if installed with advance or retarded centerlines is leaning one way or another. However, only one situation puts everything equidistant, symmetrical, etc, and that is when LSA=ICL=ECL
I wasn't there back in the early days of building, but my hunch is advance and retard, or early or late, were very clear terms, but "not late or early" or "not advanced or retarded" is a lot more words than "straight up"
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I understood that. My only observation is that for someone not familiar with the process you might try to measure the two centre lines and use them to position the cam.
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I understood that. My only observation is that for someone not familiar with the process you might try to measure the two centre lines and use them to position the cam.
You only need to measure one. The intake event is really the most critical so that's the one to measure. You can't change the lobe centers when they're both on the same cam. On engines with separate intake and ex cams, you can change the lobe centers.
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So who's to say who's right?
One way, the cam is ground "straight up" or not. The other way, the cam is installed "straight up", or not.
Well, all I can say is what exactly is "straight" if you install it as ground?
No matter what you do to affect cam timing, offset bushings, different slots in the gear, the 2 dots are always "straight" on the cam gear, and any cam if installed with advance or retarded centerlines is leaning one way or another. However, only one situation puts everything equidistant, symmetrical, etc, and that is when LSA=ICL=ECL
I wasn't there back in the early days of building, but my hunch is advance and retard, or early or late, were very clear terms, but "not late or early" or "not advanced or retarded" is a lot more words than "straight up"
LOL...OK.
I guess sometimes even a cotton ball can be complicated.
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I understood that. My only observation is that for someone not familiar with the process you might try to measure the two centre lines and use them to position the cam.
You only need to measure one. The intake event is really the most critical so that's the one to measure. You can't change the lobe centers when they're both on the same cam. On engines with separate intake and ex cams, you can change the lobe centers.
Scott - what I meant is you don't actually measure the centre line, you find the cam position by finding 0.050 inches of lift at open and close, and make sure they occur where you want (or where the cam manufacturer calls for). I was speaking as rookie and this kind of discussion can lead us to make the mistake of trying to find something that is not precisely measurable.
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I understood that. My only observation is that for someone not familiar with the process you might try to measure the two centre lines and use them to position the cam.
You only need to measure one. The intake event is really the most critical so that's the one to measure. You can't change the lobe centers when they're both on the same cam. On engines with separate intake and ex cams, you can change the lobe centers.
Scott - what I meant is you don't actually measure the centre line, you find the cam position by finding 0.050 inches of lift at open and close, and make sure they occur where you want (or where the cam manufacturer calls for). I was speaking as rookie and this kind of discussion can lead us to make the mistake of trying to find something that is not precisely measurable.
Roger that.
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So who's to say who's right?
One way, the cam is ground "straight up" or not. The other way, the cam is installed "straight up", or not.
Well, all I can say is what exactly is "straight" if you install it as ground?
No matter what you do to affect cam timing, offset bushings, different slots in the gear, the 2 dots are always "straight" on the cam gear, and any cam if installed with advance or retarded centerlines is leaning one way or another. However, only one situation puts everything equidistant, symmetrical, etc, and that is when LSA=ICL=ECL
I wasn't there back in the early days of building, but my hunch is advance and retard, or early or late, were very clear terms, but "not late or early" or "not advanced or retarded" is a lot more words than "straight up"
LOL...OK.
I guess sometimes even a cotton ball can be complicated.
Yeah, especially when you call the cotton ball the wrong thing. ;)
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So who's to say who's right?
One way, the cam is ground "straight up" or not. The other way, the cam is installed "straight up", or not.
Well, all I can say is what exactly is "straight" if you install it as ground?
No matter what you do to affect cam timing, offset bushings, different slots in the gear, the 2 dots are always "straight" on the cam gear, and any cam if installed with advance or retarded centerlines is leaning one way or another. However, only one situation puts everything equidistant, symmetrical, etc, and that is when LSA=ICL=ECL
I wasn't there back in the early days of building, but my hunch is advance and retard, or early or late, were very clear terms, but "not late or early" or "not advanced or retarded" is a lot more words than "straight up"
LOL...OK.
I guess sometimes even a cotton ball can be complicated.
Yeah, especially when you call the cotton ball the wrong thing. ;)
I can call it a football as long as I know what it is. This whole argument of "straight up" is purely semantics.
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So who's to say who's right?
One way, the cam is ground "straight up" or not. The other way, the cam is installed "straight up", or not.
Well, all I can say is what exactly is "straight" if you install it as ground?
No matter what you do to affect cam timing, offset bushings, different slots in the gear, the 2 dots are always "straight" on the cam gear, and any cam if installed with advance or retarded centerlines is leaning one way or another. However, only one situation puts everything equidistant, symmetrical, etc, and that is when LSA=ICL=ECL
I wasn't there back in the early days of building, but my hunch is advance and retard, or early or late, were very clear terms, but "not late or early" or "not advanced or retarded" is a lot more words than "straight up"
LOL...OK.
I guess sometimes even a cotton ball can be complicated.
Yeah, especially when you call the cotton ball the wrong thing. ;)
I can call it a football as long as I know what it is. This whole argument of "straight up" is purely semantics.
Yeah, I'd disagree with that.
When I tell you to install a cam straight up and you dial it in according to the cam card, then that's not semantics....it's a communication gap based on ignorance of a term.
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I can call it a football as long as I know what it is. This whole argument of "straight up" is purely semantics.
That will work if you are talking to yourself.
I happen to be interested in semantics at the moment. By brother's brain injury affected his language centers, and in particular he currently tends to pick the wrong word in a semantic family - father for son or daughter for mother, he for she, etc. He is not far off the right word, and if you understand the context you can follow him, but a stranger finds it bewildering.
Luckily he is recovering very well and may be released in a couple of weeks. Given that they had to keep him in a near coma for a week this is spectacular.
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Easy fellows. I think everyone agrees on the underlying thing.
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So who's to say who's right?
One way, the cam is ground "straight up" or not. The other way, the cam is installed "straight up", or not.
Well, all I can say is what exactly is "straight" if you install it as ground?
No matter what you do to affect cam timing, offset bushings, different slots in the gear, the 2 dots are always "straight" on the cam gear, and any cam if installed with advance or retarded centerlines is leaning one way or another. However, only one situation puts everything equidistant, symmetrical, etc, and that is when LSA=ICL=ECL
I wasn't there back in the early days of building, but my hunch is advance and retard, or early or late, were very clear terms, but "not late or early" or "not advanced or retarded" is a lot more words than "straight up"
LOL...OK.
I guess sometimes even a cotton ball can be complicated.
Yeah, especially when you call the cotton ball the wrong thing. ;)
I can call it a football as long as I know what it is. This whole argument of "straight up" is purely semantics.
Yeah, I'd disagree with that.
When I tell you to install a cam straight up and you dial it in according to the cam card, then that's not semantics....it's a communication gap based on ignorance of a term.
OK, you win.
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Easy fellows. I think everyone agrees on the underlying thing.
Which is exactly my point.
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I can call it a football as long as I know what it is. This whole argument of "straight up" is purely semantics.
That will work if you are talking to yourself.
I happen to be interested in semantics at the moment. By brother's brain injury affected his language centers, and in particular he currently tends to pick the wrong word in a semantic family - father for son or daughter for mother, he for she, etc. He is not far off the right word, and if you understand the context you can follow him, but a stranger finds it bewildering.
Luckily he is recovering very well and may be released in a couple of weeks. Given that they had to keep him in a near coma for a week this is spectacular.
Been there done that after my strokes.... For example calling my wife several ex girlfriends name :-[
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Been there done that after my strokes.... For example calling my wife several ex girlfriends name :-[
As long as they were EX-girlfriends, but that is exactly the nature of semantic confusion.
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This conversation is starting to "stall" out. Sorry couldn't help myself.
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I agree - heading out to pick up the tool to remove the spring. Saturday the sun returns, next report then.
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Paul, again, sorry to hear about your family challenges. Hope you and the family hang in there. Looking forward to upcoming success on all fronts
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Any updates?
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Not much of one. Got the balancer back off yesterday but had guests and today had to take my 98 year old mother to Costco. Will get on it now.
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Not going to plan. I have the outer spring compressed, the inner spring is still on the seat, and with the cylinder pressurized I can't budge the spring at all. If I release the air pressure I can press the inner spring down, but it takes the valve down.
I think the retainers are jammed in there and I have no idea what to do.
Update - took off the tool and put a socket over the retainer and with the cylinder pressurized I whacked the socket a few times and it loosened the retainer enough that the spring would slide down the valve and I got it off. Now about to measure the valve movement as directed.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4404/37099839036_0d52bbb891_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/YwonBb)IMG_3420 (https://flic.kr/p/YwonBb) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
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Easy! Take a plastic dead blow hammer, a leather hammer (yes, it's got a rolled up end) or even anything you can whack the retainer with to loosen them. Try and only hit the edge of the retainer and not the locks or valve tip as that won't do a thing. That or a deep well socket over the entire retainer and whack it. Sometimes though the compressor forks don't allow enough room.
Yes they often get stuck to the retainer or valve grooves. Do so with the spring compressed though. Heck, in a pinch I've used a narrow 6" long block of wood and a regular hammer to bang the retainer edge too.
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Thanks Bob - I did get it off. Here is what I understand - I measure the valve height seated, then measure the hight at which it hits the piston at 15, 10, and 5 BTDC, then TDC, and 5 and 10 ATDC. I used an electronic vernier calliper for that. I subtracted each value from the seated height and that gave me the distance the valve could move before it contacted the piston.
I also measured the lift at the same crank positions with my dial indicator, and multiplied that by the rocker ration of 1.76 to get the distance the valve would move because of the cam.
I subtracted the two and got the following for piston to valve clearance:
15 BTDC .466
10 BTDC .389
5 BTDC .324
TDC .287
5 ATDC .271
10 ATDC .281
From what I've been told here that is plenty of clearance. The vernier calliper is not a precise tool when measuring 1,000s, but the variations in measurement were in the order of .01, so I'm not concerned.
For what it is worth, I'm seeing the same opening and closing events as I did before. I will check the exhaust events because I have it apart and I did buy all these cool tools!
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New title.....
"Starting to understand why building engines may eventually make you a professional"
:P :P :P
Doing great Fred hehehe
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You're doing great, Paul! This thing is gonna run so good. You'll be building a new 3rd member before you know it. Hah!
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I checked the exhaust opening and closing, and they are 4 degrees advanced according to the cam card, and the max lift came in at .338 as per the cam card, and since it was a completely different set up to take the measurement, I'm pretty sure my numbers are correct.
Having said that, I did mess up the first thread on the crank when I was pulling the balancer off, so unless you fine folks have a better suggestion, tomorrow I need to go find a tap that size and fix the thread.
Doing it yourself, with your hands on the tools is the difference between knowing how it is done, and knowing how to do it. The price is paid in the mistakes you make.
Having a ball, thanks for all the support and ideas.
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Nice work...plenty of room, button her up, fire it up, set the timing, carb is next!
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Having said that, I did mess up the first thread on the crank when I was pulling the balancer off, so unless you fine folks have a better suggestion, tomorrow I need to go find a tap that size and fix the thread.
I have a nice thick washer that I use on the crank snout so the balancer remover doesn't mess up the threads.
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Drew - I had a bolt I had used a few times - the head was big enough - but I must have picked up the wrong one as this one slipped into the hole and nicked the first thread at the corners of the bolt head. I might try a small grinder to erase the nicks. This comes under the heading of "the price is paid in the mistakes you make".
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Having said that, I did mess up the first thread on the crank when I was pulling the balancer off, so unless you fine folks have a better suggestion, tomorrow I need to go find a tap that size and fix the thread.
That tap should be a 5/8-18. Make sure it's a tapered tap. Plug and bottoming taps are a bitch to get started straight when the first thread is boogered.
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5/8 18 tapered tap is $14 at my local industrial supply place. Off to pick one up.
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Kevin - thanks for the thread size, ran the tap in about an inch and a half and she threaded fine. Torqued the nut to 120 ft-lbs and got the pulleys and water pump on. That is it for today. Tomorrow I'll put the rad in and put the brackets back and install the fan and belts. May have enough time to re-do the rockers and pre-load.
Putting the rad in was a bugger the last time because I went with the posh stainless hoses. Means more time on the ground which my bad hip really doesn't like.
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Had a bit more daylight so dropped in the rad and re-did some of the brackets. I also ran a new ground wire through the wire loom over to the battery - MSD were whining that my ignition ground went to the intake, so while I was in there might as well.
I was getting the hoses ready and found out why I couldn't get rid of a small leak - I may have over tightened this one.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4397/37172777781_a8ec5b82bb_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/YCQcKK)Lower Rad Hose (https://flic.kr/p/YCQcKK) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
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I just like it when god people like you don't see the hindrance but the possibility to solve problems that is new for your experience and just get on with it. Ave-some work i must say. I don't know if my 27 year old son remember it but when we was watching the Macahans on TV when he was about 8 or 10 he was very thoughtful about the Seb Macahans " mountainmens " codex don't quit don't lie and don't be sorry.
Think of what a joy and pleasure it will be driving that truck when you get it ready knowing every thing inside out and that you fixed it your self 8)
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I quite agree - nothing like doing something for the first time (even though I have to do it two or three times). I love this forum because people here genuinely want more people to build FEs.
Got it put back together and the rockers on, but night fell before I could set up the pre-load. I'll try and get that before it rains tomorrow. Might be able to get a rip in before the weather changes. After that it is rain and snow until the weekend.
Winter comes early here.
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I quite agree - nothing like doing something for the first time (even though I have to do it two or three times). I love this forum because people here genuinely want more people to build FEs.
Got it put back together and the rockers on, but night fell before I could set up the pre-load. I'll try and get that before it rains tomorrow. Might be able to get a rip in before the weather changes. After that it is rain and snow until the weekend.
Winter comes early here.
Be very careful with preload, not that it is that critical, nor is it that difficult, but take the same care in setting it up as you did with the other stuff.
FYI - We all think you will need to go into that carb before it is right, but firing it, checking vacuum,. getting the distributor set up correctly, all need to be done first. It's somewhere in this run, but how is your distributor set up? There is a range of good enough, but if this was my truck assuming an MSD, I would likely have an 18 bushing, 16 initial, and all in by 2800 or so. The reason i bring that up is that with some vacuum now, that should be a "set and forget" timing, then we can move to the carb
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Ross - I confirmed the timing marks on the balancer are retarded by 1-2 degrees. Based on that I'd say I have been running 18 degrees advanced but there has been a little daily wobble of a couple of degrees that I can't explain. I am still waiting for Faron Rhoads to deliver my new one. When I checked the timing while revving the engine to 3,500 all the timing was in by 2,900.
I am getting quite experienced with the pre-load, may have actually learned how to do it by now. I left it yesterday because I didn't want to hurry with the light dimming.
If I do fire it today (weather is a factor) I'll only be taking it for a short run to gather data for the next phase. With a little luck the new distributor will show up soon, and after I run it I'll be back for some direction on where to start with the carb - I am expecting to pull it off and get into it.
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If I do fire it today (weather is a factor) I'll only be taking it for a short run to gather data for the next phase. With a little luck the new distributor will show up soon, and after I run it I'll be back for some direction on where to start with the carb - I am expecting to pull it off and get into it.
I really like how you put this.
1 - gathering data for the next phase (not determining what that is yet
2 - Running it with the new distributor to gather more info
3 - Preparing to go inside the carb (you will have to, but prepping the ignition first is critical)
I have to say, a small part of me (and others) wants to go in the carb as you wait for the distributor, but firing as is will reduce variables and show you the change of the cam timing only, so good summary, let's stay the course
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Meh, just mail the carb to one of us with taps and drill bits.
I even have an engine standing by to test it. :P
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Having a rain delay. I got the basics - oil, coolant, brackets, pulleys, belts and plugs in but it began raining so I took a break and walked my dogs.
I didn't get the plug wires on, wanted to get my tools put away before they got wet. While walking the dogs it occurred to me that I have to retard the ignition timing 8 degrees since it was set with the cam in the old position. Given that it was around 18-20 to start I think that was a good catch.
I may get a chance to put the wires on, retard the ignition a bit, and fire it today, but in any case it doesn't really change my plan:
- Fire it and get it warm and run it through some standard tests with the O2 sensor in place (idle, acceleration from stop, cruise, and cruise to WOT) and post the feedback here.
- Depending on what comes first - good weather or the new dizzy - I'll either pull the carb or replace the dizzy, but not both. The problem with the old distributor is that it is drifting from start to start, but it seems to work.
- I will look for guidance on the carb once I post the feedback, but the dizzy is simple, put it on with a known carb/cam combo and get the ignition timing where it needs to be
This may start today or Saturday as the weather for the weekend is expected to be good.
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Meh, just mail the carb to one of us with taps and drill bits.
I even have an engine standing by to test it. :P
Where would the fun be in that?
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Hard to explain
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Doing good, just don't forget to take vacuum readings along with the A/Fr O2 sensor readings in your test driving when you get to that point
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Tobbemek - that is a good suggestion. I'll have to think about how to do it. I only have an under-hood set up to check vacuum.
On the lifter pre-load, I continue to have a couple of lifters that are VERY tight. The engine was quite cold, I don't think it makes a big difference but I mention it in case you all know better.
I had the same three that were super tight. Most took between 1/16 and 5/16s of a turn to take out any free movement. Where there was some free movement to take up, the rockers all still had some movement depressing the lifter after the free movement was taken out, and some movement when I did the final turn down before locking them in.
Three of them took zero turns before I turned the adjusters down one full turn. In the three that had no additional adjustment I noticed the valves dropping when I put the one turn on them.
This time I took notes so I can check again if I have problems - see if it is the same ones each time. Does this sound normal. The hydraulic lifters are Morels.
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What do you mean by the lifters are tight? Tight in the bores?
A couple of points....
Make sure that the "free movement" that you're taking up is indeed free movement...i.e. the pushrod not making contact with anything. A lot of guys will tell you to go by how the pushrod spins, but that's a false sense of security. I prefer to move the pushrod up and down axially while slowly tightening the adjuster, until you feel all the slack being taken out. You have to be really careful with your feel here, because if you're not careful, you can be depressing the plunger on an empty lifter.
A cold engine with a cast iron block and aluminum heads will not affect the running preload enough to matter. It will be about .006" after it's all said and done.
Lifters will do silly things, depending on whether or not the oil has drained out of them. If the oil has drained out, then the plunger will be loosey-goosey in the lifter and you will be able to move it freely. If the oil has not drained out, then it will be like....well....trying to compress/move oil when you run the valves. It's very common to see the valve drop. If you have ran the valves correctly, the valve will slowly close as the spring pressure pushes the oil down in the lifter.
If you can push the plunger down in the lifter immediately after running the engine (when the lifter is primed and the oil should be pushing back up at you), or the lifter is ticking, then you have a bad lifter.
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Brent - sorry for being unclear. I can't tell if it is tight in the bore, but when we dropped them in they moved easily - I don't imagine that has changed. What I meant is tight to the rocker. You and a few others here have schooled me on just taking out the up and down movement, and not to pay attention to how easily they rotate. I have 3 pushrods with absolutely NO up and down movement with the adjustment fully backed off.
I did buy a cheap borescope and checked that the pushrods are centered on the lifters. When fully backed off all three that are tight to the rocker will rotate easily but after the smallest turn down the pushrods no longer rotate at all. These three pushrods have no up and down movement, and when I try to rock the rocker with the allen key while the screws are fully backed out, they don't move at all. All the others show at least a tiny bit of up and down movement free of the lifter, and 1/16 turn removes it. A couple took 1/4 to just more than 1/4 to take out the free movement, but the lifters are easy to compress with a finger on the rocker even after the full adjustment.
At this point the oil has been draining out of the heads for a couple of weeks. When I get it hot I'll pull a rocker and check how they feel hot and with oil in the lifters.
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Are you adjusting each rocker with the cam on its base circle for each individual valve?
I find it hard to believe that at zero lift and the adjuster backed all the way out that you have zero vertical clearance.
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Brent - sorry for being unclear. I can't tell if it is tight in the bore, but when we dropped them in they moved easily - I don't imagine that has changed. What I meant is tight to the rocker. You and a few others here have schooled me on just taking out the up and down movement, and not to pay attention to how easily they rotate. I have 3 pushrods with absolutely NO up and down movement with the adjustment fully backed off.
I did buy a cheap borescope and checked that the pushrods are centered on the lifters. When fully backed off all three that are tight to the rocker will rotate easily but after the smallest turn down the pushrods no longer rotate at all. These three pushrods have no up and down movement, and when I try to rock the rocker with the allen key while the screws are fully backed out, they don't move at all. All the others show at least a tiny bit of up and down movement free of the lifter, and 1/16 turn removes it. A couple took 1/4 to just more than 1/4 to take out the free movement, but the lifters are easy to compress with a finger on the rocker even after the full adjustment.
At this point the oil has been draining out of the heads for a couple of weeks. When I get it hot I'll pull a rocker and check how they feel hot and with oil in the lifters.
Something not right.
Make sure lifter is on base circle...zero lift. Easiest way to do this is the EOIC method. Watch the lifter if you can. When the exhaust valve starts to open, adjust the intake. Back the adjuster all the way off and start from scratch. Sounds like you have good info on how to tell when there is zero lash. The "spin" method can be very misleading. Tighten the adjuster slowly till there is zero lash. Move the rocker up and down while you're tightening but use a light touch with your fingertips because an empty lifter can be easily compressed. You want to keep wiggling up and down gently till all the lash is gone. When you reach zero lash, give it whatever preload you've decided on. I'd recommend 3/4 turn. when done, rotate the crankshaft 90*, move to the next cylinder in the firing order watching the lifter if you can. When the ex starts to open, stop turning the crank and repeat. When done, rotate the crank another 90* to the next cylinder in the firing order, and so on. When you get back to no. 1, rotate the engine till the intake valve starts to close, or when the lifter goes over the nose of the cam and starts back down. Usually about half way. Now you can adjust the exhaust lifter preload. Same thing...when done with no. 1, rotate the crank 90* to the next cylinder in the firing order and repeat. When you're done, all the adjusters should be in the same place, same amount of threads exposed, everything uniform. Some lifters may still have oil in them and feel "harder" than others when setting the preload. That's normal. They have oil in them and will bleed down. Take your time.
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Brent - sorry for being unclear. I can't tell if it is tight in the bore, but when we dropped them in they moved easily - I don't imagine that has changed. What I meant is tight to the rocker. You and a few others here have schooled me on just taking out the up and down movement, and not to pay attention to how easily they rotate. I have 3 pushrods with absolutely NO up and down movement with the adjustment fully backed off.
I did buy a cheap borescope and checked that the pushrods are centered on the lifters. When fully backed off all three that are tight to the rocker will rotate easily but after the smallest turn down the pushrods no longer rotate at all. These three pushrods have no up and down movement, and when I try to rock the rocker with the allen key while the screws are fully backed out, they don't move at all. All the others show at least a tiny bit of up and down movement free of the lifter, and 1/16 turn removes it. A couple took 1/4 to just more than 1/4 to take out the free movement, but the lifters are easy to compress with a finger on the rocker even after the full adjustment.
At this point the oil has been draining out of the heads for a couple of weeks. When I get it hot I'll pull a rocker and check how they feel hot and with oil in the lifters.
Something not right.
Make sure lifter is on base circle...zero lift. Easiest way to do this is the EOIC method. Watch the lifter if you can. When the exhaust valve starts to open, adjust the intake. Back the adjuster all the way off and start from scratch. Sounds like you have good info on how to tell when there is zero lash. The "spin" method can be very misleading. Tighten the adjuster slowly till there is zero lash. Move the rocker up and down while you're tightening but use a light touch with your fingertips because an empty lifter can be easily compressed. You want to keep wiggling up and down gently till all the lash is gone. When you reach zero lash, give it whatever preload you've decided on. I'd recommend 3/4 turn. when done, rotate the crankshaft 90*, move to the next cylinder in the firing order watching the lifter if you can. When the ex starts to open, stop turning the crank and repeat. When done, rotate the crank another 90* to the next cylinder in the firing order, and so on. When you get back to no. 1, rotate the engine till the intake valve starts to close, or when the lifter goes over the nose of the cam and starts back down. Usually about half way. Now you can adjust the exhaust lifter preload. Same thing...when done with no. 1, rotate the crank 90* to the next cylinder in the firing order and repeat. When you're done, all the adjusters should be in the same place, same amount of threads exposed, everything uniform. Some lifters may still have oil in them and feel "harder" than others when setting the preload. That's normal. They have oil in them and will bleed down. Take your time.
Edited to add; if you can't watch the lifter, watch the pushrod. Go to where you find max lift on no 1. intake. It won't matter if the lifter is collapsed or not. Max lift will be at the same point. Stop there. Now rotate the engine 360*, one full turn. That lifter is now on the base circle of teh cam and you can set the preload. When done, rotate the engine 90* to the next cylinder in the firing order and set the preload. Repeat through the firing order. When you get back to no. 1, do the same thing with the ex valve. Find max lift, rotate one full turn, adjust preload, rotate 90* and repeat through the firing order.
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I'm pretty sure about being on the base circle. I adjust the exhaust when the intake is closing, and the intake when the exhaust is opening, and I have very long arms so I can see the rocker and pushrod easily. The differences are too significant for a slight error in where the cam starts to ramp, it would have to be a really gross error to make up the difference I'm seeing.
BTW I tend to do one cylinder at a time rather than chase the intakes then the exhausts, but I don't think that part matters.
In an earlier post (might have been on another thread I started) I described the same issue, seems to be with the same lifters but I didn't take notes at the time. That time because I was so confounded by the issue I pulled the rocker assemblies and the pushrods and checked to make sure all the pushrods were straight - they were and the witness marks on them were inconsequential.
ScotiaFE (Howie doesn't seem to have been around in a while, hope he is okay) suggested some early bad behaviour sounded like hanging valves, and I think he was right. I changed how I did it from the T&D instructions to the ones Brent provided, and I had some issues with looseness (manifested by loud ticking in the valve train), so I did them again and reported the same lack of free movement at the time.
I really don't want to pull out a lifter but Barry R tells me it can be done with the intake in position.
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Paul,
If you have the cam on the base circle, which you have described properly, and the pushrod does not come loose even with the adjuster backed all the way out, then your pushrods are too long.
A lifter cannot be bad and get longer, like you are describing, all it would do is get shorter if a plunger stuck down. Are you running ball/ball pushrods with T&Ds or ball/cup with something else?
Also, are all the adjusters in about the same place when you adjust? Shouldn't be a noticeable difference between one and the next
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Ross,
All the pushrods are the same length. Ordered them from Smith Brothers, and checked them several times, the last time when I wanted to make sure they weren't bent or something stupid.
I checked my notes. It is worth noting that one of the very tight lifters is E1 - and I checked it for open/close at 0.050 and for peak lift and it conformed to the cam card, so it is moving the right amount. The number behind the valve identification is the amount of a full rotation I had to turn the adjusting screw to take out any free up/down movement:
E1-0, I1-1/16, E2-1/16, I2-1/16, I3-0, E3-1/4, I4-1/4, E4-0.
E5-5/16, I5-1/4, E6-1/16, I6-1/16, I7-1/4, E7-1/4, I8-1/4, E8-1/4.
Adjusters were all backed out to the max, and the differences on the screws above the lock nuts seem consistent. With respect to them being in the same place, on a couple I mentioned that the valve drops as I screw down the adjustment screw the recommended 1 full turn after the free movement is taken up.
EDIT - I said the adjusters are all backed out when in fact the are not backed out now. Corrected it to read were all backed out.
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Ross,
All the pushrods are the same length. Ordered them from Smith Brothers, and checked them several times, the last time when I wanted to make sure they weren't bent or something stupid.
I checked my notes. It is worth noting that one of the very tight lifters is E1 - and I checked it for open/close at 0.050 and for peak lift and it conformed to the cam card, so it is moving the right amount. The number behind the valve identification is the amount of a full rotation I had to turn the adjusting screw to take out any free up/down movement:
E1-0, I1-1/16, E2-1/16, I2-1/16, I3-0, E3-1/4, I4-1/4, E4-0.
E5-5/16, I5-1/4, E6-1/16, I6-1/16, I7-1/4, E7-1/4, I8-1/4, E8-1/4.
Adjusters were all backed out to the max, and the differences on the screws above the lock nuts seem consistent. With respect to them being in the same place, on a couple I mentioned that the valve drops as I screw down the adjustment screw the recommended 1 full turn after the free movement is taken up.
EDIT - I said the adjusters are all backed out when in fact the are not backed out now. Corrected it to read were all backed out.
I am still not following you. Forget giving me symptoms for a second. Are you saying that on any given rocker, when it is on the base circle of the cam, you cannot get free play? That free play = zero with the rocker adjuster backed all the way out?
I don't care what the lifter is doing, my question is trying to figure what you are saying. Does every rocker have the ability to have free play when you back it off all the way? If yes, go to zero, have less don't, they won't be the same likely, but will relax once the rocker goes through a cycle.
The only thing you should be thinking about is how to get to zero free play, then add a turn. Valves can open temporarily when you do that, but they relax.
In the end though, if you cannot get any free play, when on the base circle, even backing off the rockers all the way, your pushrods were made too long
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This thread has been going on for so long that I have forgotten what parts you have.
With T&D rockers, you can measure pushrod length with the adjuster all the way out. T&D recommends running the adjuster one full turn down from all the way out and subsequently, that's how much preload you need.
So, given that you prob have some valve stem heights that are a hair off, thus giving you a hair of axial freeplay, I see nothing wrong with having zero freeplay on some rockers, just as long as the adjuster ends up one full turn from all the way out and you end up with the correct amount of preload.
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Ross,
In the list I provided, the three valves with "0" for a value were the rockers that had zero free play. To be clear, on those valves I could rotate the pushrod, but it didn't have ANY free play, and further, those rockers could not compress the lifters at all. The pushrods were tight to the lifter and to the rocker, and lifter could not be compressed.
What I did was apply no adjustment to take out the free play, since there wasn't any, and one full turn down as per the instructions to provide pre-load to the lifter. In at least two of the three valves with zero adjustment to take out free play, the VAVLE moved down when I applied the one turn of pre-load, on all the other valves it was the LIFTER that moved down. I can't swear that I noticed on the E1, but I wasn't looking for it.
All the other valves had some free play that I took out, and all of them had some movement in the rocker once the adjustment to take out free play AND the preload adjustment was made. The three with zero free play adjustment also had absolutely NO movement in the lifter. The lifters are rock hard.
I mentioned this before either a dozen pages ago or on another thread, and was advised that some lifters can stay pumped with oil for a while. What I think I noticed this time, and one of the reasons for making notes, is I think it is the same lifters each time. Can't confirm it but intended to run it and pull the cover and check them again after I run it.
Is there a reason a new lifter will become essentially locked at full extension? I've never done this before so don't have any comparables.
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It's ok if the valve goes down.
It will eventually come back up if you leave the engine in the same rotational position, as the spring pressure overcomes the lifter.
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BBM heads prepared by Survival, Barry's Prison Break kit, T&D Edelbrock style rockers, and Morel hydraulic roller lifters with a Comp Cams cam and Ford Racing timing set. I think that is everything relevant.
I took the pushrod measurements from T&D's instructions, as you say, one full turn down from the seated position. The T&D instructions leave a lot to be desired, but they say "Seat the bottom of the adjuster screw up against the recess in the rocker arm and turn the adjuster screw on full turn down. This is the initial adjuster position." Later they say "The rocker arm should not be operated with adjuster screw more than one turn up or down from the initial adjuster position. Doing so can cut off the flow of oil to the rocker arm."
This doesn't make sense to me. If the initial adjuster position is one turn down from seated, then in effect, the rocker arm cannot be operated more than one turn up, because it as that point seated. In other words, it sort of sounds like they mean it CAN be operated from seated down as far as two turns down.
My concern is that I may be hanging a couple of valves because the lifters are just rock hard, and it seems to be the same ones. To confirm this I'll check it after I run it next, see if the same three rockers can't compress the lifters, and the others can.
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I bet if you opened the valve on one of the hard lifters, and just left it there, it would collapse.
Yep, those are the correct instructions. They just want you to position the adjuster in the middle of the travel. Conveniently, if you measure for pushrods with the adjuster backed all the way out, it should give you correct preload with the adjuster in the sweet spot.
Now, the kicker is that those rocker bodies have a little tolerance to them in how they are tapped, so the adjuster may not be in the 'exact' same spot on every rocker body when you back them all the way out.
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It ran with those rockers in that state, I'm not worried to start it, so I will, and with it warm I'll pull that cover and check it out.
I did pick up new oil and vacuum gauges and will install them (it is an aesthetics thing, I have a working oil gauge but I want them to match) so I can get better info. I'll probably get someone to ride with me to shoot some video of the tach/vacuum/AF info so I can post it.
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This thread has been going on for so long that I have forgotten what parts you have.
With T&D rockers, you can measure pushrod length with the adjuster all the way out. T&D recommends running the adjuster one full turn down from all the way out and subsequently, that's how much preload you need.
So, given that you prob have some valve stem heights that are a hair off, thus giving you a hair of axial freeplay, I see nothing wrong with having zero freeplay on some rockers, just as long as the adjuster ends up one full turn from all the way out and you end up with the correct amount of preload.
Very good info, I haven't used the T&D. Odd way to do it, but sounds like he has it right.
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My concern is that I may be hanging a couple of valves because the lifters are just rock hard, and it seems to be the same ones. To confirm this I'll check it after I run it next, see if the same three rockers can't compress the lifters, and the others can.
We understand, but what Brent posted yesterday, and I will post again.
1 - The lifter feeling "rock hard" to you may be a problem, but likely isn't. Once they fill with oil, the plunger often doesn't move the way you want it to. It could be a damaged plunger, but it probably isn't (because of the next thing I say)
2 - If the lifter plunger was stuck, you would go to zero freeplay, then add one turn, the valve would open. (You said that is happening) however if it stayed that way, you would have a a dead skip, popping out of the exhaust or intake depending on the valve that was hung, or you would have backfiring. In the very least, on an intake valve you'd have a shaky vacuum reading. I do not believe you are seeing that, so what I think is you are seeing standard oddball behavior of hydraulic lifters
3 -The key is yet again, for now, don't sweat that if you didn't have any compression problems. Zero freeplay, then add one turn, if all the adjusters are close, and you don't have any of the issues in line 2 above, then the plunger is working.
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Thanks guys. Will wait for Saturday morning to fire it. Cold, rain, and a bit of snow today, plus I look after my brother on Friday's.
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Well at first it wouldn't start and I had no oil pressure while cranking (only about 10 seconds). So I got a little panicky and decided to confirm that a) the oil driveshaft was actually in position, b) the ignition timing was actually set on the combustion stroke.
Took off the rocker, pulled the distributor, and spun the drive shaft with a drill to prime the system (and dumped a bunch of oil down the side since the rocker cover was off and this thing really oils the heads, so smokey mess later). The ignition was in fact 360 crank degrees off, so fixed that, and got the timing sort of in the zone to start it.
It was now fairly late, but I fired it and was running around 30 degrees advanced, so brought it back to 18-20 and let it warm up and burn off the oil. It idled about were it had been, and vacuum was still around 8 inches, video below (I don't know if that is "jumping around" or normal). I brought it up to temp and took it for a short run. WOT at around 2,000 rpm seems about the same in third, with a lot of rattle and a bit of bog. Seems to run about the same, but I'm not discounting the fact that the carb is a major issue interfering with the improvements from changing the cam timing.
I'll start her again in the morning after I've put the new gauges on it and get some AF and vacuum data while driving. It ran on at shut down as it has been, no change there. I'll also play with the ignition timing and see if advancing it further improves the vacuum and idle, tonight I wanted to check for leaks, and I had one on a rad hose.
All in all I feel pretty good I didn't blow it up. Although because I had to go back and take off the rocker cover, I had to disconnect the fuel line from my filter to the regulator, and I forgot to connect it, so on my first attempt to start it after fixing the ignition timing I heard it cough, but I also heard fluid hitting the ground and remembered the open outlet from the fuel filter. Oops. I keep a 20 lbs fire extinguisher handy when I do a start after messing with it, for good reason.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4498/36564277014_021b6ae698_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XH4tFd)IMG_3429 (https://flic.kr/p/XH4tFd) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
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OK, so the vacuum is lower than I expected especially with the cam advance. However, some questions
1 - Did you readjust idle a/f and idle or did you just put the carb on as is? If you did not adjust, recommend adjusting
2 - Do you have any large vacuum demands that could be leaking? I don't expect this, but asking anyway, really thinking something like a purge tank or power brake booster leaking
3 - Rattle and bog, two different reasons likely. If you hear it rattling, you have too much timing and likely too lean under load based based on your PV and the fact they leaned you out. Don't run it that way, it'll beat up parts or blow head gaskets. The bog is expected because you are too lean and your PV is too late.
- I would return that carb to stock, as delivered, both jets and PV. Even if it is a little rich, which I do not think it will be, at least it's safe to run while you dial in the timing
- As far as timing, you were off on the balancer slightly (I think) did you compensate for that when you set it? If so, we need to get both rate and total under control, short term, if you are still waiting for a new distributor, you may be able to pull 4-6 degrees of initial out of it, but I lost track of where you are for rate and total.
4 - How did you adjust your accelerator pump? ...and does it squirt immediately engine off moving the throttle and looking inside, no sputters or delays? There is a trend of guys doing it incorrectly, just checking
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Ross,
I have not touched the carb, in fact never took it off. The timing yesterday was around 18-19, taking into consideration that the balancer is about 1.5 degrees off (it was showing 20 with the light on the timing marks). Timing maxed out at 33-34 degrees with the engine up around 3,000. I can only say "around" since I was alone and the tach is in the truck, but revving the engine it stopped moving around 34 degrees.
I have been all over this thing looking for vacuum issues, including the booster. I am assuming the video I provided doesn't show "bouncing" as Brent referred to it, in other words it isn't acting like I have hanging valves. I note again that I am at 3,500 feet and that is about 2 inches of mercury from what I have read. Maybe that is just this engine.
The rattle and bog appeared AFTER the carb adjustments, and are unchanged by the cam timing adjustment. I think I mentioned this before, but I expect that my current distributor is ok for what we are doing. The good news is it is REALLY easy to pull and reinstall the distributor now I have the oil drive shaft in the right position.
I can't buy carb parts on a Sunday since it the performance shops are closed, but I will get the two new gauges in and try to get a video of the A/F, vacuum and tach so you can see what it is doing. These are not tools I'm used to using so my interpretations may be invalid.
So, carb questions:
- I have the original specs for the carb, but I was running it two jet sizes down - this is what QFT recommended and it was quite rich at that. Do I go back to the jets they recommended or to the two sizes up? EDIT - the two sizes down were because of the altitude here.
- The QFT docs give Primary Pump Nozzle sizes of 33 and 35, the garage referred to the pump as a "3.5" but I don't see any thing in the specs that aligns with that. I don't know of any adjustment to the accelerator pump, but I will investigate it's behaviour today.
- I have a 5.5 PV, but I can trade it for a 6.5 (if they have one) when I pick up the jets. If I'm going to a shop for some parts, I can buy a kit for about $80, or since we know where we are (72 and 74) and where we were with QFT's recommendation (76 and78), perhaps there is a small assortment I may need?
- Since it has been suggested that the IFR is too large at .37, should I also pick up a different IFR - remembering that it is an hour minimum round trip to get parts and it kind of chews up the day.
The specs for the SS 830:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4421/37285325931_bcdf6e29dc_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/YNM3p6)SS 830 Specs (https://flic.kr/p/YNM3p6) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
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fred on page 10 you indicated your idle was 17afr that is way too lean it has to be pretty rich at idle around 13afr the rest of what you had doesnt seem too bad except secondary jet may be a bit fat my car works best with 13.5 afr idle about 15afr cruise 12.5-13 wot. on a 750 vac secondary carb i had to go to a 37 squirter and orange or green pump cams blue will work but only in 1 position i could not slowly move from a stop sign without running out of fuel i mean driving like a grandma your carb is much bigger and i would think it has less signal and demands more fuel off idle from pumpshot and more fuel from the transfer slots to transition from idle transferslot then main jet i wouldnt worry about ifr unless you cant get to 13afr your plug gap will take care of smog issues i run mine at .048 gap this is why new cars have emissions systems and smell like a dryer vent! also disconnect vacuum advance until you get other stuff sorted out!
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So, carb questions:
- I have the original specs for the carb, but I was running it two jet sizes down - this is what QFT recommended and it was quite rich at that. Do I go back to the jets they recommended or to the two sizes up? EDIT - the two sizes down were because of the altitude here.
- The QFT docs give Primary Pump Nozzle sizes of 33 and 35, the garage referred to the pump as a "3.5" but I don't see any thing in the specs that aligns with that. I don't know of any adjustment to the accelerator pump, but I will investigate it's behaviour today.
- I have a 5.5 PV, but I can trade it for a 6.5 (if they have one) when I pick up the jets. If I'm going to a shop for some parts, I can buy a kit for about $80, or since we know where we are (72 and 74) and where we were with QFT's recommendation (76 and78), perhaps there is a small assortment I may need?
- Since it has been suggested that the IFR is too large at .37, should I also pick up a different IFR - remembering that it is an hour minimum round trip to get parts and it kind of chews up the day.
If it was in my garage
1 - I would ignore anything you think the carb told you before, because again, I will say with the utmost certainty, your jet re-size and incorrect PV did NOT fix the rich running issue. I would bet agaist all odds that you had a bad PV from the backfire. There is no way swapping a good PV and a couple of jet sizes would make it run leaner that you could notice.
HOWEVER, as I said, your behavior of bog and rattle acts like a lean condition, easily explained by the PV and to a lesser extent jets. If it was mine, I would run the original jets if you have them, if it was 2 sizes down, and that is what you have, good enough, but to me a primary main jet of 78 for an 830 is just about perfect, 76 is likely OK, but man o man is 72 lean. That's a 750 jet (it's not exact science, but it's too lean)
However, I would not buy jets, run whatever biggest set you have already paid for, then put a PV in. I think your 5.5 PV may be OK if you want to go with it. It depends what your vacuum really at cruise, but 5.5 or 6.5 should work
In the end though, EVERY thing you are experiencing matches a lean condition, stop trying to lean out until we have it running well. :)
2 - Check your accel pump and let us know. However I do NOT think you should touch the IFR. You have to fix the "knowns" before you start screwing with hunches.
3 - Let me reiterate, what you think is data from the carb before IS NOT DATA, that carb IMHO was being flooded with a bad PV and you need to delete it from your logic. We are starting over, and the carb as close as delivered originally is the smartest place to be
4 - Whichever jet/PV combo you change to, always start by readjusting idle speed and idle a/f before you do anything else. Jets and PV don't affect idle, but any time you look at vacuum, you need to make sure the carb is adjusted and the timing is where you want it
5 - Timing - you have sort of verified initial and total, but you still have not verified rate. If it is rattling, and rate and total are good, you likely have too quick of a curve, which requires a spring swap, but let's get the carb with the right jets and PV in first
Again, forget the old carb stuff, the engine is setup differently, AND every single bit of carb data is pointing to first a bad PV then a carb asssembled with the wrong PV
Let me add one more thing about the IFR as well, it's not too large, period. If an IFR is too large, you might have a little rich mixture at transition, but idle air/fuel screws will clean up the idle itself. It is a large IFR compared to some, but it's based on a lot of factors and if you start changing multiple things, I won't be able to keep up with you. Please, leave the IFR alone and get it out of your head for a while. ALL the issues I see point to 1 - PV, 2 - timing curve, 3 - accel pump (maybe), 4 - jets (least but I hate guys going to lean)
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Ross,
I am paying VERY close attention. Let me assure you that I am making NO assumptions about the carb are based on how it ran with what was in it before, or is in it now. My only assumption is it is suspect in all aspects.
My main question was, and remains, do you think I should take it back to QFT factory set up for sea level operation, or what they told me (and is the standard procedure) for running at 3,500 feet of elevation - namely take it down to jet sizes. This is how it was run from day one, and it was rich.
I hear you on the PV - I am going to get a 6.5. No discussion, just can't until tomorrow.
I DON'T have any jets. My buddy swapped me the original jets for the sizes that QFT recommended, and the garage kept the others. Not a big deal to buy new ones. My only question here is, assuming I'd rather have a few parts on hand I never use rather than run back and forth to the shop, what other jet sizes would it make sense to keep in my tool box?
The garage said they changed the pump to a 3.5 - any idea what he meant by that? I don't see anything with a 3.5 value in the specs.
I had the distributor re-curved by a local specialist with a machine to spin and check it, and I'm pretty confident he did it right, however is there a way to confirm the timing is coming in as expected? I can have someone manage the throttle/rpm and check timing at different engine speeds. If there is I'll check the new one too.
I have not had a chance to put the gauges in yet, had some coolant leaks that needed cleaning up after the re-assembly. Will start on gauges next, that way we can get better AF/vacuum info for any tuning.
Last, from what you are saying, we DON'T need any more info about the current carb setup since it is just plain wrong, so I won't fire it today and gather more info.
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Good readback, appreciate your patience as well
If I was in your shoes, I would read timing at idle, vac disconnected. Then I would go 250 rpm increments and note the timing at each increment until it stops changing. You are looking for 3 things, 1 - Initial is correct, 2 - total (max) is correct, and 3 - when it reaches max. Find that out and post it, all vac advance disconnected. Let's see what it is, my hunch it isn't what you think
Once we have that, we'll decide on the next move
With the carb, I'd be OK with the QFT recommended 76/84, I'd even be OK with a 5.5 PV, it's not that far off what I think you will need, but realize what you just typed was 72/74, that is WAY too lean on both the primaries and the secondaries. Stock QFT is 78/86, don't go under 76/84. Your 5.5 PV you bought is likely fine, don't lose money if they won't take it back, use it.
In the end what I am telling you 76/84 is so close to 76/86 (from your spec sheet) that is is close enough, pick one, QFT recommendation is fine, but what you have now is detonation waiting to happen, especially with that 3.5 PV
My hunch on the 3.5 discussion with the accel pump is that they meant .035 or 35, and had the PV value in their head. That will be fine for now, assuming it is adjusted correctly and working, but let's get the timing mapped first
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Ok, I'll map the timing when a friend comes over. I'll do it in increments of 500 rpm because the throttle is a little hard to manage to 250. I'll also check the pump behaviour, haven't had time yet.
I asked and I can swap the 5.5 for a 6.5. I will go back to the QFT altitude adjusted sizes - 76/84. I will not bother to pick up a IFR, but I'll probably grab a set of the metering block gaskets.
I drove it around the block to see that my new gauges are working correctly. They look nicer that the cheap oil pressure gauge I took out, and the vacuum is showing the values as the under hood gauge but I should be able to get some info on vacuum, AF, and RPM now.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4388/37265934622_8fb6941356_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/YM4E3b)IMG_3430 (https://flic.kr/p/YM4E3b) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
I'll also bend the secondary link a little more as has been suggested to snap the secondary closed, and will take the carb back to stock mixture positions before starting it with the new jets and PV. That is for tomorrow.
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Timing test:
1,000 (idle) 20 degrees
1,500 30 degrees
2,000 33.5 degrees
2,500 35 degrees.
These are as per the marks, true TDC is at 1.5 on the marks.
How do those stack up?
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Nice work, but I may send you back to do it again LOL
At 2500 you were at 35 degrees, did you go to 3000? The reason I ask is we need to make sure it doesn't go any higher. If you did, we are good
Regardless, your timing curve is too quick for a 4x4 truck. We know it's at 35 degrees at 2500, but it could be actually a bit earlier too as you did the test in 500 rpm increments. I like to see total timing all in by closer to 2800-3000 (for a truck).
Additionally, running so much initial flattens the curve, so you have a lot more timing along the slope than a traditional 20-ish degree curve. You can see that if you graphed 2 curves, one that starts at 10 and gets to 35 all by 2500 and one that starts at 20, the early part of the curve has more even though they get to the same place.
This is not your bog or hesitation, but it is almost certainly why it's rattling. How is the new distributor going to be setup? I'd love to see a little less initial, even with the low-ish vacuum, and then all in by 2800.
Be sure you don't run it in the rattle, the pressures inside, depending how bad it is, can quickly take out a head gasket and in severe cases can take out a piston
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Ross,
Didn't report 3,000 because it had stopped moving at 2,500. For now are you suggesting a little less initial timing?
My plan didn't include changes to this distributor, but I can back the initial off if it makes sense. I don't really know how the new one will be set up. I'll ask but I have noticed Faron has gone a little silent since he is late delivering.
I can try the test again in 250 RPM increments, but will need a different assistant, this one was a friend who came over for dinner and she was a little scared of the truck (and my wife hates it).
At present the most I'm driving it is once around the block, and have to have a reason at that. Off to pick up carb parts this morning.
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So, we start running into competing fixes
First, I'd pull 4 degrees of initial out of it for now if you plan to drive it after the carb repair. Make the timing change and the carb parts swap and then adjust idle a/f mixture and idle speed, but realize it won't be 100% until you get the correct timing curve in. Really, your timing should be resolved and the carb done last, but it won't hurt anything to get the carb closer to stock as we discussed.
I don't really think you need to do it again if it is difficult, we know it's too quick of a curve, the question would only be how bad is it?
Faron knows his stuff and I cannot imagine he would have that quick of a curve in a truck, but I would email him and see what he had in mind, even if he is late delivering. My hunch is it could be delayed to as long as 3000, depending on weight of the vehicle and use.
Another question, do you run vacuum advance too? If so, I would leave it disconnected and plugged for now.
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Ross,
No vacuum advance - took it off a while back at your advice (or Drew's - can't remember).
I'll pull out some initial vacuum, write to Faron, and get the carb back to stock for now.
The truck is not really used. It is purely a toy. Learned to drive in one in the bush in Northern Quebec working at a sawmill when I was 16. Always wanted a 4WD F100 from the period and picked it up about 14 years ago and it has been a hobby ever since. This is the third engine. I had the 360 rebuilt, didn't like it so bought a 410 for it, dropped that in and it was ok, finally scratched the itch to build my own. Cruising around town, odd trip to the dump, and more WOT time than is sensible is what it sees.
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I dont know why i got the impression of that you have a 750 cfm carb Paul when it states clearly in every post ( when one looks )that it is a bigger venturi 830. The size of a carbs venturi is whats most demands the size of the jets. And like Ross seas the 72-76 jetting is way to small for a 830.
I think you will do great if you follow Ross recommendations he has have you covered all the time in this very long tread and putt in a good job off effort in it, just stay with him and you will be fine. 8)
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Shouldn't you guys be talking on the phone? I appreciate all the information being shared here but this is long past the title of the thread...
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I believe there are many people following this thread with a lot of interest to see how it will turn out for Paul. Another thing when you is taking on new technical information, if it is in writing one can go back and check "hmmm what was it again" that one cant do over the phone.
Of cause just mine thoughts
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Shouldn't you guys be talking on the phone? I appreciate all the information being shared here but this is long past the title of the thread...
This is an excellent and informative thread - keep it going
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Paul, one thing that I lost track of. Which distributor is in it now?
If MSD, easy to add spring (15 minute job with parts) to delay advance, if Ford, can be even faster by bending tabs through an access hole in the advance plate to tighten up the springs a little.
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The MSD is dead (waiting to ship it back), the Autolite is in it now. Faron replied that it is in the mail and he'll get me a tracking number tonight. He has it set up for all timing to be in by 2,800.
BTW, I certainly think this thread has been informative! I understand how someone who knows all this might not.
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The MSD is dead (waiting to ship it back), the Autolite is in it now. Faron replied that it is in the mail and he'll get me a tracking number tonight. He has it set up for all timing to be in by 2,800.
BTW, I certainly think this thread has been informative! I understand how someone who knows all this might not.
Awesome, may as well wait for the new one, but be sure to go through the same care in setting the initial based on whatever he put in for mechanical, then verify it is doing what you expected
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From Faron this morning - "9 in it all in by 2800, I would have the initial at 16 , not 20". Not sure what "9 in it" means.
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9 degrees * 2 = 18 deg of advance
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9 degrees * 2 = 18 deg of advance
Of course. I should have known that.
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It gets you by surprise. You're expecting the normal amount of degrees that we talk about......14-16-18, etc. When someone says 9, you have to sit and think about it.
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Shouldn't you guys be talking on the phone? I appreciate all the information being shared here but this is long past the title of the thread...
This is an excellent and informative thread - keep it going
Agreed.....
I'm just waiting on Paul to find the vacuum leak.
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Shouldn't you guys be talking on the phone? I appreciate all the information being shared here but this is long past the title of the thread...
This is an excellent and informative thread - keep it going
[/quote
Yep, keep it going! ]
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9 degrees * 2 = 18 deg of advance
Of course. I should have known that.
So when you get that one, set it at 16 initial (34 total-18 in the distributor). Should make a world of difference on pinging.
I am of course assuming 34 total for BBMs and a good quench, Brent or Barry can adjust my number based on what they see on the dyno, but I am pretty sure they want less total (regular heads are closer to 38)
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It will want 32-34 deg total timing. A lot of the time I can make a pull at 34 and pull 2 deg out and it makes the same power, so I leave it alone. On the street, if it doesn't feel lazy, you're in a better spot with less total.
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I got the carb off, I find it I spill less gas if I pull it and open it on a big cookie sheet on the bench, and I can put the fuel back in the tank. Here is a thought for Jay, our resident engineering genius, - the world needs a little spout you can install on the bottom corner of a Holley to direct the fuel to what ever you are using for a catch can.
I found the primary jets were actually 70s, not 72s as I had been told. No matter, it is now back to 76/84, and the 6.5 PV is in place. I bent the secondary link a little.
I haven't touched the mixture screws, I will take them back to factory before I put it back on in the morning.
Don't know how long USPS and Canada Post will take to deliver the new dizzy. I will start it tomorrow and take the timing back to 16.
I won't bolt it down and connect it until mid-morning. Here is what the butterflies look like now (closed the secondary a little) - open to suggestions before I button it up:
Secondary
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4429/37085052450_f400c86aeb_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Yv5A53)IMG_3435 (https://flic.kr/p/Yv5A53) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
Primary
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4361/37341500141_1d065a793c_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/YTJX2X)IMG_3436 (https://flic.kr/p/YTJX2X) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
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Most folks just use a cup and take the bottom bowl screw out, drain the fuel and than take the carb off.
I have a butchered gear oil bottle that I use as a gasoline funnel to fill the bowls with when I reinstall.
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Most folks just use a cup and take the bottom bowl screw out, drain the fuel and than take the carb off.
I have a butchered gear oil bottle that I use as a gasoline funnel to fill the bowls with when I reinstall.
I know, but it is hard to direct and there is stuff in the way. The rear bowl is worse. A little metal spout acting as a washer on top of the rubber washer, under the screw head, could direct the fuel an inch away where it would be easier to catch it.
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There are fuel catch cups available with a long spout and handle that you can buy. They are designed especially for quick change of jets in a race situation. Check with Jegs, Speedway Motors, Summit, etc. Joe-JDC
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Moroso part # 65805
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Beat me to the part number! Moroso Drain Cup # 65805 is correct. Check with Smiley's parts for pricing. Joe-JDC
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hehehe, I've considered getting one for years when I'm bulk ordering parts from Allstate carb, but dang man.... $8, ya know? my old cut up margerine container might just need to hold out another year or two.
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Ha. Cut in half beer can works for me.
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Ha. Cut in half beer can works for me.
Shop rag under the lower float bowl screw for me most of the time :)
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Getting back to the main conversation - I'm setting it up with the mixture screws our 3/4 as per QFT for factory setup (called them to confirm) and I'm going to back the initial timing off a bit before I start it.
Where I think I really am regarding timing is 18-19 initial, and 33-34 total based on the timing light showing 20 and 35. This is based on the known error of 1.5 degrees on the marks (true TDC occurs around 1.5 degrees on the balancer), so all the values the timing light captures are 1.5 more advanced than is really the case.
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Unless the balancer's outer ring has slipped (and I guess not) no harm in bending the tab (sheetmetal)or otherwise re-marking the pointer by making up a new one. Had used a thick still wire, bend one end into a small circle and with a longer front cover bolt, stuffed said wire under the bolt and re-tightened. Be sure to grind the other end...pointy!
If it's one of the pointy solid ones sticking out of the front cover, then no dice on that idea.
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Bob,
I think this one is a "no dice" proposition, especially in the truck, as it is.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4495/37310269766_7d4f9f81ed_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/YQYTkd)IMG_3437 (https://flic.kr/p/YQYTkd) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
Before I fire it I'm going to pick up another lower rad hose, I have one of those nice stainless deals on there now and I just can't get it to not leak from the lower rad connection. Since you can't really see it (unless I am running over you, in which case I don't mind if your last thoughts are "what a crappy looking rad hose") I am going to a molded black one.
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I had a run where I was building engines for street rod guys when stationed in Vegas, they loved those stainless ribbed hoses, I hated them... LOL
Stock hoses are where it's at in my book. Sounds like you are going to be close with the carb, fire it, warm it up, get it to idle and set timing (may as well go 14-16 initial, that's about where you will be with the new distributor so you'll know what it feels like at idle anyway), then fine tune idle a/f (should be pretty close as is)
In the event the new distributor makes it feel a little less responsive, don't sweat it, your advance is too quick now, which may feel good, but when you don't have to worry about ping/rattle anymore, your engine will thank you
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Well, at least the top one works fine. The new rubber one fought me but it fits well and looks like it doesn't leak. It was dusk by the time I was finished, so I'll fire it this morning.
Dusk is coming very early these days. The time to hibernate is coming!
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Now this is annoying >:(. It started pretty easily, was happy - no fuel leaks, but had to stay on the throttle to keep it lit while it warmed up. After 30 seconds it died. I sat for a few seconds and realized I hadn't heard the fuel pump. Checked, and the old glass fuse under the dash that feeds the relay had burned out.
Now I put in a clever oil pressure cut off to the fuel pump at my buddy's suggestion. In theory it is a good idea - if you ever lose oil pressure the fuel pump cuts out. Except that it is burning fuses now, and to take the switch out of play I have to take the PS brackets off - you can see the three red wires buried in the middle. Since the damned thing ran for 50 years without losing oil pressure I think I'll just take the thing out and run without it.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4341/36667043444_5e2105e681_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XS9byd)IMG_3438 (https://flic.kr/p/XS9byd) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
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Even more annoying - I had to do some work on my motorhome and I think I broke my thumb. Going to make everything that much more difficult, especially since it is my right hand and I'm right handed.
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I did get the cut off switch removed from the circuit, and the fuel pump runs for about 20 seconds before it cooks the fuse. The pump draws its power from a direct connection to the battery via a separate in-line fuse. This is just the relay and it is cooking an old style cylindrical fuse in the Ford fuse box under the dash.
I noticed that the heater fan is on that circuit, but it was shut off. I don't think it is a short I introduced, but when the sun comes up I'll pull the relay and replace the fuse, and turn on the power and see if the fuse cooks without the fuel pump relay.
While this is VERY annoying, at least the new distributor showed up today. I won't put it on until I have the carb sorted a little more (idle and mixture adjustments).
All with a black and purple thumb! I can feel my heart
beating in my thumb.
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Well, first, when a mechanic has a new issue right after they did something, it is generally their fault. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt LOL (too many times)
I would look closely to make sure you didn't pinch a wire when you jacked the motor up or putting together the accessories.
Second, remember, ignition timing first, carb setup second. So although one thing at a time is good, once you get the initial set, total and rate verified, you are done with the ignition. So, don't be afraid to get that engine running and enough basic adjustment to let it run, then get the good distributor in there
Sorry about the thumb, there has got to be a lesson there too :)
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Ross - I hear you. My plan is just to get the idle where I need it, the I planned to swap the distributor and get the timing where I want it. I don't want to swap the distributor until I have it running and staying lit.
I agree it is probably something I did - I ran over the wires twice yesterday. I have a thought last night in bed that I will run over this morning. If it isn't that I'll start with a systemic approach to finding the fault.
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Had to get the motor home ready to put away until I need it in late December, so only had a few minutes for the truck today. Everything takes longer when you can't use your dominant hand.
In any case demonstrated again my limitations as a mechanic. Turned out it was what popped into my head late last night. I forgot to attach the + to the electric choke. Attached it and the fuel pump ran for a few minutes. I'll try to get under the hood tomorrow but it is supposed to rain.
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Mmmm yeah, good thing us "professional" mechanics never forget anything like that ;-)
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This is a head scratcher, and frankly it is scaring me. I got it started, had to open the primary a little to get it to stay lit, and with it running around 500-600 RPM it was showing 5 inches of vacuum. I tried turning the mixture screws IN 1/4 from the 3/4 out where they were. It ran much worse, so I took them back 1/4, then out another 1/4 (so they are now one full turn out). It idled a little more smoothly but vacuum stayed around 5.
At this point I put my timing light on it and it was showing around 16 degrees (actually shows 18 but I know the balancer is 1.5 degrees advanced). Now my light has a dial where you can retard the light so 15 degrees advance will show as zero, so I tried that to see if I could get a clean read on how many degrees it was advanced - instead I got the timing jumping around like crazy.
Took the light back to zero and the timing was showing 16. Backed of the clamp and moved it back to 16 and it ran worse, advanced it as far as 30 degrees advanced and the vacuum came up to 8, and the idle picked up.
I can't believe this engine likes 30 degrees initial advance at idle. I've asked a my buddy with the old school Snap-On light if he is around because I'd like to check it with his, but the last time I did this I got the same answer with both lights.
I'm afraid to drive this with that much advance, but it idles like crap at 16-18.
Last, I'm about to wire up the Duraspark, the wires are all the same (black with a red stripe). I called Faron and he told me that if I look at the end of the plug, with the ground at the bottom, the spade on the left is the trigger and it should have been the orange wire. Going to try that, but the distributor won't change what the timing light is telling me, so this is not a distributor problem.
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In addition to wanting to know what to do when the engine seems to like 30 degrees of initial advance, I have a question about the MSD wiring for the Duraspark.
It is currently wired for a Pertronix:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4419/36745357773_4cabdde893_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XZ4yFg)Screen Shot 2017-09-30 at 2.26.34 PM (https://flic.kr/p/XZ4yFg) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
Note that the red wire from the MSD goes to both the red wire on the Pertronix AND the ignition wire.
Here is what MSD calls for with a Duraspark:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4389/23563936638_af16ecf702_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/BUgkpC)Screen Shot 2017-09-30 at 2.29.44 PM (https://flic.kr/p/BUgkpC) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
There are a few differences:
- The white wire is not used
- The violet and green wires are used (magnetic pickup), and,
- The red wire seems to connect to the positive on the coil
The last one is what I don't understand. Now (with the Pertronix) the red wire is connected to the Pertronix AND the ignition. In the Duraspark instructions there is no ignition wire. I don't have that "Ford Coil Connector", so I assume the red wire just connects to the + on the coil. There is a green wire in the diagram that comes off the Ford Coil Connector, but since I don't have one, I have no idea where it goes.
Since something needs to turn this on, I assume deleting the ignition wire is a non-starter.
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I like to use that 8869 harness. It's like $18 and keeps you from hacking up factory wiring.
random thoughts:
You keep working on a cold engine.... don't tune a cold engine.
Until oil and water are up to temp, don't expect the engine to idle well. If it in fact idles well cold that is because it is stupidly rich (or the choke is engaged) Adjusting the idle screws at this point is a mistake. This is why the initial idle screw setting is 1.5 turns out, even tho that is almost never the final setting..... it's a rich setting so you can get the engine started the first time.
This is why there is a choke on street carburetors.
Ok, now.... you live in Canadia (which is cold), with an Edelbrock performer rpm intake and BBM heads, both of which are aluminum and wick away heat rapidly and neither have an exhaust crossover. Couple this with a performance cam and an overly large carburetor, which although usable, both lend themselves toward a lesser signal..... which leads to worse atomization.... which is the path to the dark side.
Imagine being inside the intake manifold on a cold start. You don't have atomization, you don't have perfect clouds or air and fuel mixed.... you have liquid fuel running down the sides and floor of the intake while the engine is trying to stay running.
Until oil and water are up to temp and the intake and carburetor are up to temp that fuel is staying dang near liquid. Once everything is up to temp, you will have proper atomization and thus a decent idling engine.
So when you say "The engine runs best with 30 degrees of advance while cold." So?
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Drew,
First, on the wiring of the Duraspark, thanks for the suggestion. Cheapest I can find in Canada is $30, so I'm ok with cutting the wire. At $18 I'd buy the harness. Still doesn't answer what to do with the ignition wire.
On the timing thing, you are saying I chickened out too soon? At the time I did wait for it to get warm enough that it would hold idle, I planned to make just enough adjustments to stay running, then I was going to let it run long enough to hit full temp. When I saw the timing behaviour it kind of freaked me out. Wasn't cold today, but the engine was just warm.
BTW I do have the heat cross over in the intake - I'm running a Holley Street Dominator intake. I had not realized the BBM heads do not have the heat cross over. Silly me. This does explain why this engine runs better when REALLY hot.
If I can get the wiring figured out I'll stuff in the new distributor and let it hit full temp before I mess with it.
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Nope, no crossover.
It's typical even when the water temps at 180 that the engine isn't "really" up to temp yet.
Pretty common to have where you pull up to a redlight and it'll start to idle a lil rougher. By the time the light turns green you get a little shudder that is quickly remedied with a little throttle.
It's an annoying tuning issue, I deal with it a lot as I get folks that have all the "race car parts" but aren't willing to deal with the "race car issues" and want me to tune it out. :P
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I appreciate you pointing that out, I think I noticed that there was no heat cross over when I assembled it but it had slipped my mind. I don't mind letting it get really hot before I drive it, it isn't a commuter vehicle so I'm not jumping in and trying to go someplace. I had noticed that I needed to drive it a couple of miles to get the idle to settle down, and it snaps a lot harder when really hot.
Now, all I need is to be told what to do with that ignition wire.
UPDATE: Think I figured out the wiring - I need to run the MSD red wire that goes to the Pertronix and ignition switch now just to the ignition switch. The "Ford Coil Connector" threw me for a loop.
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im pretty sure you use it just as the pertronics did i cut off the dura spark plug and substituted the small square msd plug but otherwise wired as shown . if you want i will come over tomorrow and help nothing else to do im dying to hear this thing run!!!
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Sorry I haven't been around, did a couple of long runs with the Mustang this week. Most notably was a cruise to Speedway Motors twice LOL thought I lost my military ID and made the 54 mile drive a second time and hyper speed before the museum closed. Approx 198 miles by 1 PM good for the car to get the miles on and get this...ID card was home the whole time
So, first, the vacuum, I have an odd concern that keeps ringing in my head when you thought the advance slots for the cam were backwards in operation. Not sure I can say anything about that but it nags in my mind as I type.
Regardless, Drew brought up a very valid point, you cannot tune cold. Fuel is falling out of suspension, bores are tight, valves aren't sitting exactly as they would, no heat in intake or exhaust, that's why any engine needs a choke. To believe it, realize how much a choke starves an engine of air, yet it still runs, but it only does it when cold
Second, one good thing is your carb is pretty close. If the idle screws kill the motor when turned in, and level off somewhere else, it's on the idle circuit, so sleep easy with tha
I don't have any more to add on low vacuum until we hear how it runs, but get the distributor in, set the timing, get it good and warm, set the idle a/f and idle speed and see what it does.
The carb adjusting normally, makes me think everything is normal in terms of intake leaks and overall setup, but if you advance a big cam, vacuum has to come up. So let's see what happens after the distributor
BTW, have you tried a second vacuum gauge? I have had them read incorrectly. Another option would be hook yours to another vehicle
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Good on you for getting it out for a work out. I'm jealous, even in good trim the truck is not a highway cruiser!
I did install a vacuum gauge under the dash, and it gives more or less the same reading as the one under the hood, so I think the numbers are correct.
I wouldn't worry about my mistake about the timing slots - I'm sure what happened was I took some measurements that suggested the cam was installed at the degree called for by Comp, but when I decided to advance it as per your recommendation and I measured again, The A4 slot was actually slightly retarded to where it had been before I took off the timing set. I think all I was seeing was that my first measurements were bad. I did improve my technique and am confident that the cam is now about 4 degrees advanced even though I had to use the A8 mark.
Drew made a good point about it being cold, it wasn't cold, but it was just barely warm enough to hold an idle. I'm not willing to pay $30 for the harness so I'll make up a connection later today and get the new distributor in and start it again.
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Let us know
FYI a cold engine is lean because of fuel not staying atomized, lean engines need more advance.
Hopefully you are good to go after the distributor. Also, don't idle it lower than you have to. Not sure where you idle, but that could be a 900 rpm idle for your setup.
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Hey Paul, do I remember waaay back that Jay installed a plug in the rear PCV on the manifold or was that left open?
Edit:
OMG I think I brain farted to a whole other thread.
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Marc, currently the PVC is closed off as are all the vacuum ports.
Ross, I have been setting idle around 8-900, and it drifts up to 1,000 when it is hot. I don't run a choke at the moment - I plan to install a manual choke at some point - but I hadn't set the idle when hot, had been leaving it a little high.
BTW I was encouraged that the engine responded to the mixture screws, when I first ran it it would idle with the screw turned all the way in, so it had been pulling fuel from somewhere other than the idle circuit. I'd say the carb is closer to where it needs to be than it has in a while.
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Almost all good news. Got the new distributor in and got it started (I made sure it was warm so it would be easier to start after the swap). Not proud of the wiring yet, but I left it so I could put the old one back - I'll tidy it up when I'm happy with how it runs. Only problem is the snap clip that holds down the front side of the distributor cap is so short I need vice grips to get it in place.
Got it hot and it started to run nicely, idle settled in at 900, timing set at 18, it gave more vacuum at higher advance but it wasn't fully hot so I left it at 18 for now. I didn't have anyone to help today so I couldn't do the 250 rpm increment advance test, but the advance stopped at 34 degrees, so it is showing 18 initial, 34 total right now.
I took it for a few rips and there is no rattle, and while it doesn't come in until close to 3,000, it really takes off at that point. I didn't put the O2 sensor on it today, I had pulled it out since I was doing a lot of engine starts and it is a pain to remember to plug in the module each time.
The bad news - it still runs on and runs backwards on shut down. If you click on the images it will take you to Flickr where the videos will run. Vacuum is not a video.
Walk around running:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4457/37439461841_cb3dd26208_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Z3p2CM)Walk around (https://flic.kr/p/Z3p2CM) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
Mild launch:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4497/37439467571_c945422b19_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Z3p4kz)Standing start. (https://flic.kr/p/Z3p4kz) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
Vacuum gauge:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4341/37408464402_1cf47bbaf5_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/YZEabb)Vacuum (https://flic.kr/p/YZEabb) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
Shut down:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4456/37408432652_36e0f004f8_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/YZDZJL)Run on at shut down. (https://flic.kr/p/YZDZJL) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
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im pretty sure you use it just as the pertronics did i cut off the dura spark plug and substituted the small square msd plug but otherwise wired as shown . if you want i will come over tomorrow and help nothing else to do im dying to hear this thing run!!!
Comet2, I'd be happy to have you come over, question is - where are you starting from?
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One other bit of bad news - I have a coolant leak around the passenger side of the timing cover, seems to be at the top bolt. My old F100 shop manual refers to a "Cylinder Front Cover", and provides a torque value of 12 to 15 ft lbs. I assumed they meant the timing cover, but in any case, what is the torque limit for the timing cover?
Also, is it madness to think about running some form of stop leak and then dumping the coolant?
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Slow the idle 100rpms and see if it runs on. yes?no? slow it down some more and see.
yes, it's a bad idea to run coolant leak stop stuff. Figure out where the leak is and fix it properly. (it's probably that janky coolant hose)
You are 100% sure you don't have a small vacuum leak? That would explain a ton of issues.
Dunno if it's an issue or not, but I've always had the timing gun pickup as close to the plug as possible. Shouldn't be an issue, but since you are having weird issues there......
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Ok, I'll slow the idle. May go and get the manual choke kit - I don't know if there is a difference between the Holley and QFT kits. It would be easier to keep it running on start with a lower idle if I had a choke.
Not a bad hose, I can see the leak. Starts at the top bolt on the timing cover. I'll drain some coolant, pull that bolt, re-seal it, torque it down again. I really DON'T want to pull the cover.
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Good call on resealing the bolt. Top bolt shouldn't go into coolant tho.
I edited my post above and added some thoughts that may or may not be helpful.
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On the vacuum leak question - at one point I sealed up the carb with duct tape and used a cigar to provide smoke. It was tight. I may do it again, but running out of year. Expecting 6 to 8 inches of snow tonight and tomorrow but then the weather turns warm again. Just a little foreshadowing!
I'll back off the idle and see if it helps.
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How many miles on the engine?
I agree with idling it down a smidge, but if it's a tight motor, you may want to get some miles on it, it'll build less heat. Not to mention, idling in place generates a little more heat too
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How many miles on the engine?
I agree with idling it down a smidge, but if it's a tight motor, you may want to get some miles on it, it'll build less heat. Not to mention, idling in place generates a little more heat too
Miles on the engine - low hundreds. Don't think it has made 300, possibly not even 200. Longest trip so far was 29 miles each way. That was the longest by 20 miles.
"...idling in place..." that shutdown was after taking it for a 5-10 minute drive.
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Only timing cover bolts going into water are down below the water pump.
A drip up high is the thermostat gasket about 98% of the time.
Sounds like we are getting close now.
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It would be easier to keep it running on start with a lower idle if I had a choke.
This is why chokes have a high idle cam that raises the engine speed for warmup.
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I damaged the clock spring in the choke, but I'm not too upset since I don't like electric chokes. Nothing going on until the snow stops.
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This is cooling my jets a little...
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4514/37428382462_1d7a3b21c0_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Z2qf81)Not much going on here. (https://flic.kr/p/Z2qf81) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
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Still about a month before i have that....white...grmngfl >:(
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"it's not cold yet in Canada" says Paul......
"You've never lived in south Georgia." says Drew.... :P
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"it's not cold yet in Canada" says Paul......
"You've never lived in south Georgia." says Drew.... :P
Well.....For each day i thinking more about moving from this country
bad and cold weather ruled by retards invaded by rapists...so watch out
maybe I'm moving to south Georgia :D neighbour and borrow your lawn mover,
circle saw, shovels........ :P
Lovley isnt it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hyMpL-bHck
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Just a normal day in Syracuse NY ;D.
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Should be nice enough tomorrow for a little work on it. My question - if I'm going to reduce the idle, do I close the secondary completely or reduce the primary?
Save you looking back here are the pictures before I put the carb on, I have turned the idle set screw a little more open than is in the picture.
Primary:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4429/37085052450_f400c86aeb_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Yv5A53)IMG_3435 (https://flic.kr/p/Yv5A53) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
Secondary:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4361/37341500141_1d065a793c_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/YTJX2X)IMG_3436 (https://flic.kr/p/YTJX2X) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
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Do you want the long answer or the short one Paul?
The short answer is "Set the primary transfer slot properly and then close the secondary to reduce idle, provided that the secondary is still set on the adjuster and not the bore of the carburetor."
The long answer includes the why.....
Don't call the transfer slot "the transfer circuit" it's confusing until you fully grok it all, and how it plays with everything else.
The idle circuit IS the idle mixture screw and also the transfer slot.
The total fuel is restricted by the Idle Feed Restriction. As it heads out of the idle well it is mixed with Idle air bleed air and proceeds down toward the bottom of the metering block.
From there it is in one slot..... the metering block slot that goes to the transfer slot hole in the main body and eventually down to the throttle body transfer slot.
When you adjust the idle mixture screw you are allowing fuel/air mixture into that area of the metering block and into the main body down to the idle feed in the throttle body.
You can adjust the idle mixture screw..... but the ONLY way to adjust the transfer slot fuel is with the throttle butterfly.
The idle feed under the throttle plates is constant feed.
The transfer slot is kinda like a fuel bleed AND an air bleed. (follow me?)
The transfer slot above the throttle plate is seeing air rushing into the engine, the slot below the throttle butterfly is seeing nothing but vacuum.
As you move the throttle the ratio of air bleed to fuel bleed changes...... as the throttle opens up more fuel bleed is exposed, this makes sense because air is rushing around the butterfly into the intake manifold.
If your idle air bleed and main bleed are appropriately sized the main boosters should come online at a point when the transfer slot cannot keep up with the fuel requirements of the engine.
This is why if you expose too much of the transfer slot you lose idle mixture screw sensitivity.
Ok..... so proper setup of the transfer slot.
Technically for good idle and good cruise the transfer slot doesn't *need* to be visible at all.
(technically)
But once you open the throttle a tiny bit, you need more fuel NOW, and you need that transfer slot to be functioning..... but liquids move slower than air.
Easiest way to assure this is to make sure a tiny bit of the transfer slot is showing and thus *seeing* intake vacuum in the primaries.
The secondaries in this case are not as important because at small throttle usage the secondary butterflies aren't moving. When the secondaries do function they are opening in a metered way (with a Vacuum secondary setup) so the fuel can catch up to the air movement. In a double pumper it isn't as important because the secondaries have a pump shot.
So this is the reason for the primary Transfer slot to be set properly..... if too little is visible there will be a stumble, if too much is visible you'll over fuel and lose idle mixture screw usage and the engine will be overly rich.
Many people when tuning do not understand this relationship and will do things like choke down the idle screws to limit fuel, or they will increase pump shot to try to mask the lean spot if the transfer slot isn't exposed enough...... don't be like those people.
Drew
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In your case, the throttle body has a small hole under the secondary transfer slot which will steadily leak fuel anyway..... so no worries of stagnation there, more of a risk of a rich light cruise scenario because the secondaries will constantly be leaking. On the upside the secondary slot will "see" vacuum even with the butterflies closed all the way and will thus react quicker to secondary opening changes.
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Drew, I think I'll read that a couple of times. I do know that when we were first running it we had the primary open so far that the mixture screws were not having any effect. I've been having a bit of a struggle getting it to hold idle with the primary and secondary closed down to the point that it is generally recommended - with the transfer slot exposed so it looks like a square under the butterfly.
Now based on your advice the other day I realize part of my problem was trying to get a stable idle with the engine below its target running temperature. This probably caused me all kinds of grief.
My truck is a stick, and it gets some throttle before I release the clutch, at the point it starts to see load (i.e. clutch friction) it is already up above 1,500, probably close to 2,000 RPM. It is also unusual for me to have it idling in gear with the clutch released. I assume at this point the transfer slot will be well exposed and less of a factor than in an auto.
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Drew, I think I'll read that a couple of times. I do know that when we were first running it we had the primary open so far that the mixture screws were not having any effect.
heh, yeah, it would have been easier to read it with a carburetor in pieces in your hands.... But yes, if too much slot is exposed, it is just pouring fuel. The idle screws still do something, but it's nothing in comparison to what is already flowing unregulated.
Now based on your advice the other day I realize part of my problem was trying to get a stable idle with the engine below its target running temperature. This probably caused me all kinds of grief.
My mistake, I forget sometimes and just assume folks know to tune at operating temp.
I assume at this point the transfer slot will be well exposed and less of a factor than in an auto.
I run a 3000+ stall convertor in my daily driver. It still matters, it's not all about load.
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Drew - on the second point no mistake on your part. You drew out into the open something I had observed but hadn't put together. Engine ran better at the end of a test drive, but I was tuning it at the beginning. I was tuning for the wrong conditions. Very good catch on your point.
On the last point, I hear you.
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Drew - on the second point no mistake on your part. You drew out into the open something I had observed but hadn't put together. Engine ran better at the end of a test drive, but I was tuning it at the beginning. I was tuning for the wrong conditions. Very good catch on your point.
On the last point, I hear you.
This is one of the biggest lessons here. It's nearly impossible to tune an engine cold, other than "good enough to warm up" Get that baby good and warm and see how it runs.
IMHO, fix your water leak, drop the idle a hundred RPM with the primary screw, get it hot, adjust idle a/f and get 500 miles on that engine. You might already be done and just don't know it :)
I'd also add a choke, nothing wrong with the electric choke if adjusted properly, but a hand choke is standard equipment on the dash of a 67-72 F series, so may as well use that, especially if you prefer it
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Other random thoughts.....
-Idle mixture screws aren't a set and forget thing. Any time you make changes, be they timing or idle or whatever, you should make idle mixture adjustments as needed. I have to make seasonal adjustments since I drive year round as well. It isn't much, but 30 degree winter temps vs 100 degree summer temps have an effect.
-Any time you adjust the idle speed with the primary throttle plates (secondary too with a dbl pumper), you NEED to make sure the accelerator pump shot is adjusted.
I very small adjustment to idle speed can create a gap between the pump arm and the pump itself. A small amount of preload is ok, but a gap is not.
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I drained the rad to start work on the coolant leak, and looking closely I see coolant on the top lip of the timing cover, where Barry pointed out the bolts don't enter the water jacket.
I think it may be the bypass hose - there is a little hint of coolant on the clamp. I have to pull the water pump to fix it and get a look at the rest of the timing cover.
Question - when putting the water pump back can I make a gasket out of some rubberized cork gasket material I have? The paper gaskets I used will probably not survive removal and I don't have a quick source of new ones without buying the whole timing cover gasket set.
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You do not need to remove the water pump to change the bypass hose.
-remove old hose
-cut new hose to size
-fold new hose in half, get each side somewhat started
-release it and force the ends onto the two water pipes
-redo all the above because you forgot to install the hose clamps.
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;D ;D
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-redo all the above because you forgot to install the hose clamps.
LOL!
I'm just throwing this out there because I've lost track of everything you have going on, but a loose advance spring or sloppy advance bushing/plate can wreak havoc with getting a steady idle. You can chase it to no end trying to figure out why you can't achieve a stable idle speed. Watching the timing while it's idling will expose anything funky going on there. Been there, done that before.
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I'm just throwing this out there because I've lost track of everything you have going on, but a loose advance spring or sloppy advance bushing/plate can wreak havoc
Good call, but we are way past that bro.
Nice job at EMC, must have been a great experience.
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Well, I pulled it anyway because I wanted to get at the bolt that might be leaking. In any case found a set today so I don't need to cut anything.
Am going to pull that bolt after dinner and try to get it all glued up again so it has time to set before I run it again. I hate leaks.
CJ - I put in a new distributor because I just lost confidence in the old rig.
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You can absolutely make a pair of water pump gaskets, but you have to make a good ones :)
Hopefully they live and you can give them a wipe of RTV.
Get going, I want to hear about a 500 mile trip and how it just ran better and better every minute!
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Good news is it has stopped leaking coolant. Took it out for a couple of runs. First to get it hot and turn down the idle. About 1/3 of a turn and it is idling happily at 800. I also noticed it isn't fighting me when I cold start it - it settles down quicker than it used to. When cold the vacuum at idle is around 6 inches, warm it is closer to 10.
It ran happy, good throttle response, nothing quirky and quite drivable. A little weak around 2,500 especially in 3rd, but it rips as it gets closer to 3,000. Part of the issue is that with the NP435 it is almost always at an awkward RPM. One thing I need to do is swap out the NP435/Dana 21 combo for a Borg Warner T19 and a Dana 21 to get 4 usable gears with better splits. With the venerable NP435 it seems you are ALWAYS in the wrong gear.
So, for those of you who have followed the rabbit, I started on this particular quest by deciding that putting a new cam in my 410 would get me a wider torque curve to compensate for the wide spits in the transmission (it used to drop on its face at 4,500), and it would be cheaper than buying a new transmission and t-case (about $3,500). Then I decided that the old 410 was not going to do what I wanted, so I am now the proud and poorer owner of a 445, and I am now considering the transmission anyway.
And down the rabbit hole we find our selves! To quote Warren Beatty playing Bugsy Siegel - "it's only dirty paper".
After the idle reduction I shut it off, started it, and shut it off and both times it wasn't clean, but it was barely one fire. Took it over to the auto parts store to pick up some power steering fluid, and it ran on pretty badly when I shut it down, and it ran on a bit when I got it home.
I think I'll try closing the secondary a little and see how it behaves. Either way, time to put some miles on it before I store it, I'll try to get some O2 readings with a passenger to video the O2 sensor, vacuum, and tach.
In the spring, assuming I have time before my hip surgery and the weather is in my favour, I'll run it some more (500 miles!) and get it on a dyno sometime in the summer.
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Paul, what are you running for fuel in the truck?
Sometimes, different fuel blends can be significantly different for run-on. May want to try a tank of something else and loosen the engine up a little before you change anything else. Maybe look for a very different brand, or potentially a higher octane and see if it changes. You may be surprised.
I hear you on the NP435, I have the same issue with mine, depending which gear set you have it can be very bad, mine isn't too bad, but my dad used to run a stout 390with a 6cyl NP435 and it's gear combo was horrible. I think mine will eventually have a TKO-600 in it and a divorced transfer case, but too many things going on right now for that
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I'm running Shell's 91 octane. I use it because there are a couple of 93 octane fuels available here but they have alcohol in them where the Shell is pure petroleum.
I hear you on running it a bit. BTW, when I look at a TKO 600 the shifter seems to be much further back than the Borg Warner T19 or the NP435. I like the idea of 5 gears, but I don't like where it puts the stick.
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I'd run the 93.
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I'd run the 93.
Me too, at least a tank as an experiment.
BTW, I put a TKO in a customer's 67 2WD and used the mid shift option. It puts it right where you'd want it. Fun little truck, 2WD short bed, 396 alum heads, RPM intake, Thumpr cam and the TKO, made a fun cruiser
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I saw those plates on top and was wondering if they were alternative linkage points.
I have about a half tank of pure petroleum in it right now, and on Monday (our Thanksgiving) I'll get some O2 readings - need someone to hold the phone to capture video. I have read that ethanol gives leaner readings and I assume we want to know what it looks like with petroleum only.
Then I'll top it up with the 94 octane (highest available).
Took it out for a good rip today - it is fun to drive now. Now have to be careful not to chirp the tires on standing starts.
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Nothing wrong with E10.
I daily drive carbureted vehicles.... I don't actually own a modern vehicle. I run pump gas E10 exclusively and have no issues that could be traced to it.
Leaner/richer readings really aren't important, A/f readings are a great tuning aid, but if an engine I'm tuning runs best at 13.8 or 15.2 doesn't really matter to me, I just put it there.
For me at least, the greatest benefit I get out of an A/f guage has nothing to do with ratio, I use them the most for circuit timing.
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Nothing wrong with E10.
I daily drive carbureted vehicles.... I don't actually own a modern vehicle. I run pump gas E10 exclusively and have no issues that could be traced to it.
Leaner/richer readings really aren't important, A/f readings are a great tuning aid, but if an engine I'm tuning runs best at 13.8 or 15.2 doesn't really matter to me, I just put it there.
For me at least, the greatest benefit I get out of an A/f guage has nothing to do with ratio, I use them the most for circuit timing.
Well, it will probably be next year, but I may get you to teach me what to do with the A/F gauge.
I asked here early on about E10 vs lower octane pure gas and was told to go with the gas. Happy to switch and see what it does.
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I will say this about using e10, do not leave that crap in the tank all winter, you will have issues in the spring. I have found that much more then a couple months in a open fuel system like our old trucks have, it gets bad real fast. I only use straight premium in any thing that sits a Lot.
I am glad you finally have the truck running good, I have followed this from the beginning. Rob
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I dunno about being an issue over winter.... maybe if it sits that long.
My vehicle cycle is as tough as it gets. I drive to the airport, pull the battery cable and leave my truck there for a month or longer while I'm at work.
When I get home, I fill the bowls, attach the battery, fire up the engine.
After a 2 minute warmup, checking for leaks and doing a brake check I'm on the highway doing 70mph for the next 1.5hours.
I find the fuel just evaporates out of the bowls. At worst it leaves a very light whitish dust on the bottom of the bowls, but it seems to take a few years to accumulate. My current clean up schedule is every fall I change the oil in all of my vehicle no matter how many miles. I also pop off the bowls to inspect. Typically a quick carb cleaner squirt and a rag wiped along the bottom of the bowl and I'm putting it all back together. I've never seen where I would have though it was an issue.
Maybe the fuel is worse in other countries, or in New Jersey/California/other restrictive emissions states.
At this time I've got my vehicles tuned tight enough on E10 they do't run as well on pure gasoline :P
Either way, so happy you are pretty much there Paul.
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I will be honest, I don't even think about ethanol. My lawn mower, snow blower and two stroke weed-wacker and blower have never been apart, start first pull and all are at least 10 years old. (OK a little lie, actually the 4 strokes fire first pull, the 2-strokes are 2 pulls full choke, then 1 pull no choke LOL)
My Mustang got EFI in 2009, and got a fresh fuel filter in 2013 and the old one looked new. Pulled the bowls on the 1000 Holley after it was run 3 years on E10 and whatever else I threw in the tank pre-Mustang EFI, looked new, so I put it on the 445 truck without even a fresh kit.
I also live in Nebraska, the land of ethanol, and people claim our E10 is likely 15-20 and not a regular mix, I don't know. However, I also don't even consider the tuning to be that significant unless somehow you are able to tune to a knife's edge.
I do add Stabil to my tanks each winter, and the the car sits in a sealed bag, the truck usually sits at home in a garage that swings in temp from 65 to whatever outside temp is, and the lawn equipment gets no maintenance at all and sits near the garage door (shame on me LOL, I can't even remember changing the oil in my lawn mower...some engine guy huh?)
That doesn't mean I think ethanol is economical or worth being subsidized at the levels it is, but as a fuel, for performance, it doesn't bother me at current mixes
I am going math geek on you now, keep in mind I used E15 for a bigger difference in the math, E10 would be slightly closer to gas. This math also doesn't account for viscosity or whatever "gasoline" is, as there are different mixes and I just found the most repeatable values I could for power production I could in 10 minutes of looking. :)
- If the BTU value for gas is 116K, and pure ethanol is 77K, a 15% mix of gas/ethanol (E15) would mathematically be 110K (all rounded)
- That difference is 5%
- A Holley 80 jet, with a hole size of .093, has an area of .00679
- A 5% increase to supply the same BTU value of fuel is an area of .00712, that is about equal to a Holley 83 jet
- Now, 3 jet sizes can be significant, but, if you consider a stock Holley build to be a bit on the rich side, and you realize that all the circuits can be a little fat, making up the difference is likely in the carb already, and as long as you aren't running on the lean side, you are likely just fine.
- Again, the math does not account for alcohol flowing more easily (which I would think it would but I could not find a value for "pump gas" viscosity) and the actual make up of the gasoline we call "pure" has quite a range, so who knows
****I built this on a spread sheet, so I couldn't help myself, the percentage difference for E10 would be 3% which equates to just the low side of the 83 jet. Pretty much the same
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I use Stabil as well. Haven't had a problem in 10 years with the truck put away for months.
On a different front, I noticed something lying in the header pipes where they converge and lo and behold it was a header bolt. Another reason to be underwhelmed by my local shop. Question - what torque value should I use going into aluminum heads?
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I use Stabil as well. Haven't had a problem in 10 years with the truck put away for months.
On a different front, I noticed something lying in the header pipes where they converge and lo and behold it was a header bolt. Another reason to be underwhelmed by my local shop. Question - what torque value should I use going into aluminum heads?
3/8 bolt is generally about 30 ft lbs, but I'd be surprised if you can get a socket on every one.
The way I do it is with a variety of wrenches. I lube the bolts with anti-seize, then tighten them all evenly and lightly, then I go back and work my way through the entire group evenly using a box end wrench as tight as I can.
After that, I fire the engine and let it get hot, then shut it down and do it one more time, while still hot, with gloves on, then never ever ever touch them again LOL
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To nerd up this post even more (thanks Ross, hehehe)
Holley jets are rated by flow and not by actual size. This is why if you gauged several jets, you may find many different jets are the same size.
That said, any given two digit Holley jet is rated for up to 3% variance in flow.
To get closer you need to use the three digit Holley Jet which are called "close ratio" and only allow 1.5% variance, but there will be three types available.
Jet sizes for a 66 jet:
66 (3% variation)
661 (1.5% variation between other 661's)
662 (1.5% variation between other 662's)
663 (yup, you guessed it)
In my case I've spent what? 10 years tuning the same engine to it's leanest, meanest configuration. Of course, this once again goes back to the old adage "Give the engine what it wants." Instead of any hard fast rule, especially when trying to attain perfection, you need to react to the clues that are given.
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I would have thought 30 ft/lbs into aluminum would be a bit much. I do have some torque adapters that helped with the old ones, but the CJ style have 2 extra bolts per cylinder, probably a bit trickier.
I am going to run it tomorrow (better weather and a camera man), for what specific situations does it make sense to capture the A/F numbers. I am assuming idle and WOT (stomping on it), and the transition from 2,000 (cruise) to WOT gradually opening the throttle.
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Ok, but remember:
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Paul, just a recommendation as you get closer.
Maybe just get to know the truck if it's running decent now. The weather is changing, fuel mix is changing, the engine will be breaking in. All these things combined with looking at a/f numbers will have you chasing your tail.
FWIW, I don't even use an AF meter in a carbed vehicle, except for on a chassis dyno to make sure we aren't too lean during the first couple of pulls. What I do is drive and pay attention to when it's doing something wrong, but you need to get to know your new motor now
Some rules of thumb though
1 - ignore idle a/f numbers and get it so it idles the best at the RPM you want
2 - if you want to do a WOT full-load pull, log it if possible, but if not have a passenger pay attention, 12.5:1 is likely pretty good, but it has to be a constant load and stay at WOT so the PV and the mains are both feeding the boosters. Remember, you are evaluating both primary and secondary. I generally add to the secondary to save a little mileage
Everything else, let the engine tell you. If it surges at part throttle, go with an earlier PV, if it doesn't, leave it alone.
I'd say in general, other than the run on, which will likely cure itself as it loosens up, get as many miles on it as you can, get a few oil changes under your belt, as the idle creeps up and you readjust it and idle a/f, take notes and see where you end up before you go back inside.
Now in my EFI builds, I can log load, vacuum, timing, a/f, different story because I can see everything that my foot tried to do and how the car reacted, but a/f ratio alone is a bit harder without the added info you will get from getting to know the behavior of the truck
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Ross, I have noticed slight surging under part throttle. By surging I mean it lunges, then backs off, then lunges. Not enough that it is obvious, but it is there.
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Ross, I have noticed slight surging under part throttle. By surging I mean it lunges, then backs off, then lunges. Not enough that it is obvious, but it is there.
If that is at operating temp, if you have vacuum advance, I'd first disconnect and plug it and see if it goes away.
If it was the same unhooked, and at operating temp (all warmed up), that is when I would put an a/f meter on it and only look at it when it is doing it, noting both the vacuum and a/f ratio.
So, thinking about this, realize you are likely seeing a slightly lean surge (assuming it isn't ignition), this is AFTER you added jet and put an earlier opening PV, it also shows that you likely do not need to put a smaller IFR in it.
Does it have a 5.5 or 6.5 PV in it now? If 5.5, look close at the vacuum gauge when you feel it.
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The PV is a 6.5. I will check to day if it is there when fully hot. The jets are at QFT's recommendation (2 sizes down from factory to compensate for altitude) and the PV is factory.
I have a nagging feeling the reason I may not have paid too much attention to it is that it was only present in the first couple of minutes of driving.
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So, keep in mind that you have no heat to that carb with your intake and you are running it a smidge leaner with their recommednation.
It takes a while for a cold FE to get warm enough that the gas in the manifold acts normally (doesn't fall out of suspension) That's why stockers had exhaust crossovers. Hopefully it is doing well when fully warm.
Heck, mine isn't very happy for a while with the chokeless 1000 Holley and was the same when I had the 3310 and could jockey the cable.
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I got it out today. First I put 3/4 of a tank of 94 octane with up to 10% ethanol. Had to take some stuff to the dump to clear the space in a friend's garage where I park it. Yes, I take my restored '69 to the dump. It is a truck.
It took 1/2 an hour to get there and get out onto the highway. Due to construction it took another 20 minutes to get to a nice bit of open highway clear of traffic to run her up and down the gears. No noticeable surging. The wind noise is really bad at speed - most of the rubber edges have come loose and I need to remove the old glue and re-attach them. Result is you can only really hear the engine at WOT. It pulls really hard in 3rd from 3,000 to 6,000. Bit weak below 3,000 but not shocking. Definitely need better splits a proper 4 speed or 5 speed is in the future.
Brought it home and shut it off - nice and hot - and it shut off cleanly. It is a bit rough idling at 7-800 but not terrible. I had the A/F sensor hooked up before I took it out but was getting an error signal so pulled it and put the plug in the exhaust. It was black with soot and I expect the plugs will be very black as well - before taking the carb back to factory the plugs almost looked polished. I suspect I've gone from scary lean to fat rich. I'll pull the plugs and get pictures on Saturday - it is supposed to rain tomorrow.
One last thing - the tick is back. I'll put the missing header bolt in and check the others, but I suspect it is the #5 lifter that is loose again. Only started after the last hard part of the drive - pulls up to 6,000 rpm.
Since I am really out of good weather I'll park it soon and wait for spring.
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Well, first, it's reliable and running well. So in terms of your comment "scary lean to fat rich" remember, don't over correct.
If you have been running primaries only and it's rich, check float level front and rear, check the choke to make sure it isn't closing on you.
If it's all good, I recommend you track your vacuum while driving and see how often you are below the PV value. Additionally, finding out the size of your PVCR (the 2 small jets behind the primary PV) could give us an idea of total area available to the main circuit.
I do not recommend jetting any lower yet, as you are already low.
One last comment, realize that in town traffic may not get you EFI-like clean pipes, we can get close, but it will likely never be as clean as a modern car.
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I can only add to Ross's suggestions by saying from here, only change one thing at a time. Otherwise, you may be chasing a few carby adjustments that don't help. Do so as recommended on a fully warmed engine.
And yes, w/o the heat crossover and even with it, it can be tough with a carb to get the cold to warm transition right. I live with it and once warmed, all is fine.
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Guys, I'm actually pretty happy. As I was driving it Drew's words were in my mind - it can be rich many times but lean only once!
After they shop changed out the jets and PV I noticed the plugs were shiny, and it scared me. Right now I expect they will be sooty, but that is not a terrible thing. I won't be messing with the carb until next year - I'm just out of nice days to test drive it. I'll be back some time in the summer looking for advice on making small adjustments to the carb, it will probably be summer because I hope to get my hip re-surfaced in the spring and won't be able to depress the clutch for a couple of months.
BTW, watching the vacuum I've seen around 7-8 inches at idle but at cruise it is closer to 15, and I have not experienced any surging, so I think the PV is not the problem. I am very happy it shut down without any run on. That was with 3/4 94 octane and 1/4 91 in the tank.
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Guys, I'm actually pretty happy. As I was driving it Drew's words were in my mind - it can be rich many times but lean only once!
After they shop changed out the jets and PV I noticed the plugs were shiny, and it scared me. Right now I expect they will be sooty, but that is not a terrible thing. I won't be messing with the carb until next year - I'm just out of nice days to test drive it. I'll be back some time in the summer looking for advice on making small adjustments to the carb, it will probably be summer because I hope to get my hip re-surfaced in the spring and won't be able to depress the clutch for a couple of months.
BTW, watching the vacuum I've seen around 7-8 inches at idle but at cruise it is closer to 15, and I have not experienced any surging, so I think the PV is not the problem. I am very happy it shut down without any run on. That was with 3/4 94 octane and 1/4 91 in the tank.
That is certainly good to hear!
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I just looked at the forecast and I may have one more chance...looks to be high 50's and mid 60s next week.
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One last comment, the standard cold plug a guy drag racing may use may not be the plug for a heavy(-ish) truck in traffic with a very wide ratio 3+1 speed.
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Ross, the comment about the plug is interesting. I was using the Autolite 3924s but when the shop did that work they also said they took it to a colder plug - I'll look tomorrow when it isn't raining.
I also failed to mention earlier that the choke is not in play - I have it disconnected and rotated out of position.
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A pleasant surprise! Pulled one of the plugs today and it seems my shop did not change the plugs to colder ones - they are still Autolite 3924s. The pleasant bit is they are not all fouled as had been the case previously. This represents about an hour and a half of mixed running, city and highway.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4508/37809970276_f330b21eea_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZB8YTf)Plug carb at QFT recommendation (https://flic.kr/p/ZB8YTf) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
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Aint perfect, but it isn't bad for sure.
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Compared to my older pictures it is a big improvement, however for every step forward...lovely day, thought I'd take her out and she started and then died. Noticed the pump was running but the pressure regulator was not making noises - it normally burps and since it is mounted to the firewall you can hear it. No fuel in the bowls, no pressure at the gauge, I am momentarily stumped. I do have a filter ahead of the pump and a fine one after it, and the pump is running.
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It is too windy to work on today - I don't want to be testing fuel with the wind spraying it around. I did notice that when I start the fuel pump it comes on and the sound doesn't change. Normally it starts off fairly high pitched and the pitch drops as the system pressurizes. It is a Holley blue and it is pretty loud so hard not to notice. Yesterday it ran fine but I noticed the pressure regulator was "burping" in shorter intervals than I'm used to.
I've never had an electric fuel pump fail, does this make sense?
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I've seen a lot of Holley Blue's fail. I've seen them fail due to a lil trash, a tank vent that plugged, and for no reason that I could find at all.
For a street vehicle it's really overkill anyhow, for a vehicle like yours a Carter 4600hp works well.
Easiest thing is just see where the fuel stops pumping. But ya know.... preferably when there aren't high winds :P
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Drew - based on what I observed I was going to check either side of the pump first - see if fuel is getting from the first filter to the pump, and see if it is putting any out. I have several places downstream of the pump - a fuel filter and the regulator - but I think if the pump is not changing sound either it's not getting fuel or something is wrong with the pump.
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I have run a stock pump with a filter (rebuildable carter, very CJ-like from NAPA) and a Carter performance mechanical pump on my 445, both worked great. Nothing wrong with electric, but I like the simplicity.
FWIW, I ran a blue Holley for years, and often the base of the pump can get gummed up. Either that or you can suck air on the supply side near the frame and on an in cab tank, it'll lose it's prime but may not leak.
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Don't like where this maybe leading. I took the pump off and it had fuel on the supply and pressure sides. I have a cut-off on the cab floor, so I only had a foot of fuel line to drain, but it seemed petty full.
Took the pump apart and it looks fine, no gunk and the relief valve moves freely.
I then opened the stop cock to see how much fuel would siphon down the fuel line and it is only a trickle. Now this is down-stream from the 40 micron Summit filter, which could be reducing the flow. My fear is that I put a new fuel pickup into the tank - drilled a new hole and used a 6 AN bulkhead fitting connected to a Russel 6 AN to 3/8 tube compression fitting, and dropped a piece of brake line down to the bottom as the pick up. If that stuff has come apart in the tank I'm in for a miserable day.
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Oops. Just had a close look at the Holley instructions and I mounted it with the motor under the pump. Instructions say to mount it motor up. Don't know if that will screw it up in this way.
I have been reading some other threads about Holley pumps and seems they don't do well after being run dry, but mine was only dry for at most 20 seconds.
What is odd is that it had plenty of fuel in the carb to start after a long run two days earlier, and it had been running strong (no shortage of fuel at the carb) but I noticed that the pressure regulator was cycling twice as fast as I'm used to. You can really hear it because it is mounted on the firewall.
Does faster cycling of the regulator imply that it was delivering less fuel pressure?
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This would be a lot easier if I knew what I was doing...
Nice day, bit breezy but I wasn't planning on draining a lot of fuel so I had a go. Disconnected the fuel line ahead of the upstream filter and opened the stop cock, and voila, flowing fuel. Next took the filter off and looked into it:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4491/37907589561_a6bee4d152_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZKLiGn)First hint of the cause (https://flic.kr/p/ZKLiGn) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
Took it apart and found out what it was:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4474/37907589341_ff297028b0_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZKLiCz)That was as surprise (https://flic.kr/p/ZKLiCz) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
It looks like excess silicon I used to seal the fuel sender cover to the tank. I'm frankly astonished that it ran at all, and that it had the suction to pull all that crap through the fuel line down to the filter - the line runs from the left of the cab across and down the right side before it runs out of the cab and back through the frame, so about 6 feet of fuel line.
To Ross's comment about a mechanical pump, I know this is overkill, but I wanted to route the fuel away from any heat source, so it comes up the frame and enters the engine compartment at the firewall and runs up and across to the back of the carb through a filter and the regulator. The only problem is I have to take the fuel line off the filter to remove the valve cover:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4484/37876651622_27b35629c6_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZH2JVC)Fuel system under hood (https://flic.kr/p/ZH2JVC) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
I think I'll take it out and see how it runs when it can get fuel!
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Got it out for a drive so it was good and hot, but it started making an unpleasant sound. Ran fine, same as last time, but same as last time at the end of the drive I brought it off the highway and it started making a noise.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4474/24058899168_f40934afd1_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/CE19wm)Engine noise. (https://flic.kr/p/CE19wm) by Fred Snoyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154464058@N03/), on Flickr
I ran a stethoscope over the valve covers and it none of the lifters are making a strange noise, neither is are the pumps or the alternator. What I did notice that got my attention was on the #3 exhaust port I could hear a clanging like a bell, and it came and went. Never heard a sound like that from an engine.
Any thoughts? I assumed I had a ticking lifter but I'm not thinking that now.
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Only times I've heard a "clanging like a bell" sound on a car/truck it was hard to find, but both times the sound was from the bellhousing.
Also of note, both times nothing appeared to be wrong, it was just a resonance kinda thing. You'd especially hear it on shut down.
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Drew, that is interesting. I'm curious why it only seems to appear on the #3 exhaust port. It rings like a bell which suggests a loose part because a bell won't ring if it is touching something to dampen the sound.
Still thinking about that grey stuff, I only used a smear of the Motorcraft TA31 to seal the sending unit to the tank. Nothing like the amount that showed up in the filter. Most fuel stations have filters in the dispensers, so I can't imagine it came out of the pump, and I have a locking gas cap.
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Well, we had one 70 F day here last week but the party is over so today I put her away for the season. I think this thread is done, I'll start a fresh one in the spring or summer when I get back on getting the timing and then the carb right.
I am very grateful for the excellent advice and good wishes I've had here, particularly this year. Working on the truck and getting it running well was a welcome distraction from all the bad stuff swirling around.
Things are looking up on all fronts, truck included.
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After seven and half months in storage, my hip surgery far enough behind me that I can raise my foot and get it on the clutch, I pulled the beast out and she started on the second twist. Ran it up to temp but not super hot, drove it home and it sounded good. Shut it down and it shut down without running on.
After 31 pages of very good advice I think I'm getting close and will look for a chassis dyno to put it on. Next up front disc brakes and a TruTrac.
Before I do that I'll run it until it is good and hot and see if it holds - I had been thinking about doing the lifter pre-load with it hot since it seems to tick when up to temp.
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Good to hear that you are back in business 8)
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Ran it today. Warm day, mid 70's. After about 30 minutes in slow traffic and a couple bursts it started ticking. Shut it off to go into a store, came out in 10 minutes and it had settled down. Ran another 20 minutes and it started ticking again. Ran it home and same thing. Passenger bank this time.
I think I need to tear into it when it is really hot and check the pre-loads.
Also one odd thing - there was oil under it when I pulled it from storage, but no drips now. I put it away with 6 quarts of oil in it. Seems about a 1/4 to 1/2 a quart was on the ground.
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Off topic, but what are you doing for front brakes?
I finally bit the bullet and bought a later model front end out of a 79, conversion for the early bearing-style "spindle" is like 700 bucks, using mostly Chevy parts, I don't mind, but parts getting hard to find for this style front end.
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Ross, I came across some adds for an SSBC kit that they claim fits a '69 F100 4WD. http://ssbrakes.com/i-10092449-1966-1974-f100-4wd-bronco-front-power-disc-big-brake-conversion-kit-12-inch-rotors-a159-1.html
I have limited time this summer - had to recover from having the hip fixed (for the first time in 4 years I don't have a limp!), fix up the house to sell (unfortunately Mr. Trump isn't helping the real-estate market up here in Canada), find a property over on Vancouver Island, and I plan to spend about 4 weeks out in the motorhome (including looking for a place on the Island).
Not sure I'll have time this summer but I want to.
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...
Also one odd thing - there was oil under it when I pulled it from storage, but no drips now. I put it away with 6 quarts of oil in it. Seems about a 1/4 to 1/2 a quart was on the ground.
I'd take a hard look at the oil pan drain plug. That much oil would have a hard time getting out anywhere else with the engine shut off.
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Ross, I came across some adds for an SSBC kit that they claim fits a '69 F100 4WD. http://ssbrakes.com/i-10092449-1966-1974-f100-4wd-bronco-front-power-disc-big-brake-conversion-kit-12-inch-rotors-a159-1.html
I have limited time this summer - had to recover from having the hip fixed (for the first time in 4 years I don't have a limp!), fix up the house to sell (unfortunately Mr. Trump isn't helping the real-estate market up here in Canada), find a property over on Vancouver Island, and I plan to spend about 4 weeks out in the motorhome (including looking for a place on the Island).
Not sure I'll have time this summer but I want to.
Looks nice, but I went the cheap route, picked up a 79 front axle for 125, going to rebuild/reseal and sell the drum brake front end. I should turn the truck into a gasser with a straight font axle, it'll never need 4x4 again, but I can't get myself to do it LOL
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Ross - did you scavenge the parts from the '79 and transplant them onto the '71 axle or did you swap the axle.
I'm reluctant to swap the axle - according to the Fordification site there were only 465 Flareside F100 4x4s made, and only 7,950 Styleside F100 4X4s. Not a lot more made in 71.
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Ross - did you scavenge the parts from the '79 and transplant them onto the '71 axle or did you swap the axle.
I'm reluctant to swap the axle - according to the Fordification site there were only 465 Flareside F100 4x4s made, and only 7,950 Styleside F100 4X4s. Not a lot more made in 71.
I am swapping the entire front axle, you can't swap the brakes alone, the spindles and axle shafts are different.
Although mine is a 71 short box fleetside 4x4, it didn't come that way, so I don't care about originality
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Ross - that is what I thought (you have to swap the axle). I rather like the fact that there were on 465 F100 4X4s built in '69, but at the same time it does keep me from taking it too far from stock.
Was yours converted to 4X4?
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Ross - that is what I thought (you have to swap the axle). I rather like the fact that there were on 465 F100 4X4s built in '69, but at the same time it does keep me from taking it too far from stock.
Was yours converted to 4X4?
I have owned my truck since 1984, when my grandfather passed and left it to me
- It was a 2 barrel 302/C-4 long bed 2WD Heavy Duty Special
- Next, a high revving 302, with 4.11 gears
- Next a 69 4V 351W
- Next, I put 4x4 under it, 360 Holley 500 2 barrel with headers, 3.50 gears, body lift, 38 inch mudders
- Next 4 inch suspension lift, canned the body lift
- Next 390 + .020, variety of configurations and gears, as mild as a 600 Holley with a Performer cam, as wild as a Predator carb with a 150 shot of nitrous with tank mounted in bed on the roll bar
- Next, cut the frame and shortened to 6 foot bed, took two cuts, one out back, one in the middle (been that way since 1990 or so)
- It worked for a living until 1995 when it went into storage
- "Restored" starting in 2009, and ended up as a 445, NP435, 3.50 gear, 33 inch tall tires, 4 inch lift
- Had some issues with the 445, it's on the engine stand, currently a tight quench 390, 9.5:1, Lunati mild cam, 750 Holley, Streetmaster, and sort of fun to drive in a moped kind of way :) (Sorry 390 guys)
- Next iteration is either build the 445 as a 447, or build a 428 I have here as a 462.
Ironically, it will likely never see 4WD again, but it's been that way since the 80s, so no desire to go back to 2WD
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That is a lot of work for one chassis. Did you box the front frame when you put the front axle in?
Mine only gets into 4WD once a year or so to prove it still works. BTW I mean to say "only 465 F100 4x4s". Having driven it for 15 years I understand why 4WD was not a big seller back in the day. Manual steering, manual brakes, farmer 4 speed, and the equivalent at that time of "shift on the fly 4WD" - having to back up to release the transfer case to take it out of 4WD - make it a joy to drive.
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Ironically, it will likely never see 4WD again, but it's been that way since the 80s, so no desire to go back to 2WD
C'mon Ross, you may as well. What's a little more hacking and welding? You can't get cheaper or more plentiful than Crown Vic stuff...and it'll stop better than it ever has.
(https://cache.nebula.phx3.secureserver.net/obj/MUNCMDlCQTZFQTAxRjkzQzk0Q0U6ZThmOTY0NDk5MDg2YjY2NGVjNzkxYTJhNDNmMTEwZjY=?u=8b6f795b-11d1-4488-912e-d609a0cba565)
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Back then 4WD was intended for the farmer to pull out stumps :D
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Back then 4WD was intended for the farmer to pull out stumps :D
Back then? I used my Highboy to pull over many a tree that were close to houses and buildings. Cut about 2/3-3/4 the way through the base, hook up as high as I could and start pulling and yanking. Oh, and make durn sure your strap was longer than the tree ;D
When the kids were small, one of our cats got ran up a big tree by something wild. He was at least 50' up and was there for over 2 days, afraid to make the trip back down. No amount of coaxing would work either. I finally got tired of listening to him crying at night, went out and strapped to the tree as high as I could, using a ladder in the back of the truck, then proceeded to shake the heck out of the tree until he decided he was safer on the ground. On the way down, he jumped from about the 15' mark and never stopped till he was back at the house. He was a good cat.
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Thats a story tell 8) love it
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajp_jhmtgms
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No cats were hurt making that video.
Actually Barry, farmers were too cheap to pay the extra for 4WD. My brother sold trucks for Ford in the mid 70's, and here in Alberta ranchers, farmers, and the oil patch only bought 2WD. The 4WDs were bought for the forestry industry and the cities bought a few.
In '69 total production of F100 4WD was under 8,500 out of 343,000 total. Of the 504,532 pickups made by Ford in '69 only 19,694 were 4WD. One reason was they were so primitive you had to really need it to order it. Having said that my truck probably has over 300,000 miles on it (pretty sure it was a City of Calgary truck) but is on the original transmission, t-case, and axles.
It is interesting that world wide Ford sold 990,000 pickups in 2017, I would have expected more. I could find out how many were 4WD but I expect a higher percentage than in '69.
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Update to an very old thread. Moved from 3,500 feet to 8 feet above sea level. First did the obvious and took the primary and secondary jets up two sizes to the original that came with the carb (78 and 86).
Then I turned in all the idle screws and got it to idle a little lower, but I felt it had more to give. My new neighbour Percy is an old carb tuner and builder, working on sprint cars and the like for 40 years. Very nice guy with a shop full of Holley parts, a small machine shop, and a nice kit Cobra with a 347.
We moved the timing up to 26 degrees, brought the total timing back down to around 36, and it was much happier, vacuum is now consistently around 10 inches. Percy thought there was more there, and it was still suffering from a little too much run on, plus he had a manual choke kit for me. We pulled the carb and adjusted the throttle positions to close them a little more (what you need to run at 3,500 feet is not what runs well at sea level), replaced the power valve with a 5.5 (was a 6.5), and put in larger primary pump nozzle and it now hits harder at 2,000. Need to do a little cruise driving to see how it runs, WOT runs are fun but probably not the only thing to test. Run on seems to be minimal now, and the starter is not having trouble at 26 degrees advance. I won't bother with vacuum advance since I really don't care about fuel economy.