Author Topic: Starting to understand why building engines may be best left to the professional  (Read 133700 times)

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Lenz

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Hey Paul,

To back what Ross is saying, you can be misled if you pay attention to much more than initial "play is gone and then 1 turn". 

The last time I verified adjusted it was the same, a "full" lifter just jacks the valve open until it bleeds down.  I fired it right up after making adjustments and it backfired once.  I shut it down and let it sit for a few minutes, after that everything was fine.  As long as you set your preload with the lifter on the cam base circle you should be fine in that regard. 

Len Zielinski
'64 Galaxie 500 445 Toploader
'69 F100 300 stick

Yellow Truck

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Thank you very much. Just for background, I'm re-doing it because when I first set the preload it seems I left some valves hanging (thank you Howie for spotting that - BTW anyone heard from Howie lately?). I got them so the didn't seem to be hanging and started to focus on vacuum, idle, and timing, but it started ticking. I assumed I was too loose (at least on the #5 where the sound was coming from).

Jay suggested I take a look at the lifters, so off came the rocker assembly, and that is where I am now.

What I will do is any lifter that displays ANY free movement - I'll take the adjuster down until it doesn't have any rattle, and then down one full turn or around 40 thou. If there is no free movement I'll take it down one full turn, lock it all down and see how she runs.

Just kind of freaked me that they were suddenly so different.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

scott foxwell

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I've read the last few posts here and forgive me for being repetitive if I am, but I thought I'd offer my input. I do a lot of hyd roller stuff but hydraulic is hydraulic when it comes to preload.
First, the lifters will all be at their "full" position, where the plunger is at the top of it's travel, whether the lifter has oil in it or not. Some may be filled with oil, some may have had the valve in the open position while sitting and "bled down" like Jay eluded to earlier. All hyd. lifters have a "bleed rate". Some will bleed down rapidly and some will take a while, all depending on internal clearances. Morels are known for very tight tolerances inside and very low bleed rates. Cold oil adds to this condition.
As far as setting preload; I've heard just about every method in the book, but the one I use is, first, make sure the lifter is on the base circle. Doesn't matter how you do it. TDC, EOIC, or what have you. Next, don't use the "spin" method because you can still spin a pushrod that's compressing an empty lifter and that will get you in trouble. It's very hard to determine when there is zero lash using the spin method. Start by backing off any adjustment till there is obvious lash clearance. Now, with a very light touch, grab the valve end of the rocker with two fingers and gently start rocking the rocker up and down and slowly start adjusting the adjuster till there is no lash. As you keep rocking the rocker, you will feel the lash start to decrease. Don't push on the pushrod! Just let the pushrodd sit in the lifter with it's own weight. It doesn't matter if there's no oil in the lifter or not. There is a small spring in the plunger that will keep it at it's top position. If you're not careful, it's easy to compress the lifter if it's not full of oil, so be gentle. Wiggle, tighten, wiggle, tighten...you can feel where the last few thousandths of lash goes away. This should be the same on every lifter whether its full of oil or not. Once you have zero lash, give it however much preload you're using. Ideally, you want the plunger of the lifter in the middle of it's travel so I'd say 1 full turn is minimum with 3/8" adjusters. Do this with each valve, one at a time, and you shouldn't have any trouble, at least with lifter preload. If you feel like you;re trying to compress a lifter when you stat doing the preload, give it a quarter turn, wait a minute...another quarter, wait...the lifter will eventually bleed down. You can also look at the adjusters and they should give you a pretty good idea whether everything is right or not. They should all be very close to the same number of turns, or be at the same level in the rockers. If you have some that are obviously different, you might want to re-try them. Of course if your valve stem heights are all over the map this won't be the case but then you have bigger fish to fry.
As far as push rods rubbing, I do a lot of pushrod clearancing for over sized pushrods on engines I build. My "gauge" is a piece of paper wrapped around the pushrod. If I can slide the piece of paper all the way through the pushrod hole, it has enough clearance. The pushrod will flex! Even 3/8 pushrods in an FE will flex, and flex a lot. It was mentioned and I agree...we can actually use the head (or intake in this instance) to help limit the flexing by only giving the pushrod enough static clearance so the pushrod isn't in any sort of bind throughout it's movement. If it has clearance throughout it's movement, but you're still seeing rub marks, so be it. It's fine. In fact, at that point the more clearance you give it, the more it will flex and we don't want pushrods flexing. Just picture a pole vault. We don't want the pushrod becoming a secondary spring in the valve train.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 02:42:55 PM by scott foxwell »

Yellow Truck

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Scott - your description was helpful. I got on it today and re-did the pre-load. Biggest issue was I snapped a stud holding down the rocker cover and will need to get a new one (only 10 ft-lbs of torque so rather surprised).

They are all within 1/4 turn of each other and my main issue was the #5 rocker/lifter was ticking. I'll put the plugs back and run it tomorrow.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

My427stang

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They are all within 1/4 turn of each other and my main issue was the #5 rocker/lifter was ticking. I'll put the plugs back and run it tomorrow.

Sounds like you got it.  1/4 turn is certainly within the preload window at all but the tightest or loosest limits. If it is still noisy, it is likely a bad lifter
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Yellow Truck

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Hope so. Some were very stiff and others mushy, so based on advice here I kept them all within a narrow range. I'll fire it later today and get it up to temp for a while. Hope the ticking has stopped.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

scott foxwell

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Hope so. Some were very stiff and others mushy, so based on advice here I kept them all within a narrow range. I'll fire it later today and get it up to temp for a while. Hope the ticking has stopped.
It might be after the fact but if it ticks, give it plenty of time to make it's adjustments. Let the oil get plenty warm. If you have the adjustments right the ticking should stop. One other thing to remember...hyd lifters are like little individual filters. They don't tolerate any kind of dirt or junk in the oil. 9 times out of 10 we see the results of Morel taking apart lifters that customers sent back as "faulty" and they're full of crud. Just an FYI.

Drew Pojedinec

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psst Paul..... Scott might know a thing or two about cams and lifters, pay attention.  :P

Barry_R

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Scot knows nothi - - - oh heck, he's actually pretty sharp and well worth listening to :)

Heo

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My neighbour have imported a 66 Pontiac Boneville ,untouched just some
touched up paint in a few places . And today he
asked me come over and listen to a knock it had developed. It sounded
like the lifters. He had changed the oil to some modern high detergent
oil and probably it have dissolved the built up sludge in the untouched engine
and filled the lifters with crud



The defenition of a Gentleman, is a man that can play the accordion.But dont do it

Yellow Truck

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As usual I am very grateful to the lessons I get here. I started and ran it yesterday for about 20 minutes. Started without drama and the valve train sounded nice and quiet. It seemed to run fine and shut down with a minimum of fuss. Timing was a bit odd - it kept showing me 90 degrees mixed in with 14 - 16. It seemed to have a bit of drift so I set it back to 18 to 20 degrees and I also tested the vacuum and it seemed low again. Bit frustrating but I'll get some O2 bungs welded into the exhaust this week and have a go at tuning the carb.

1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

My427stang

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As usual I am very grateful to the lessons I get here. I started and ran it yesterday for about 20 minutes. Started without drama and the valve train sounded nice and quiet. It seemed to run fine and shut down with a minimum of fuss. Timing was a bit odd - it kept showing me 90 degrees mixed in with 14 - 16. It seemed to have a bit of drift so I set it back to 18 to 20 degrees and I also tested the vacuum and it seemed low again. Bit frustrating but I'll get some O2 bungs welded into the exhaust this week and have a go at tuning the carb.

If you are seeing a moving mark with your light, and the vacuum advance is hooked to ported AND that line is dead at idle, you are likely seeing a crossfire under the cap or have bad wire/induction triggering. 

First thing I would do is get it warm, let it idle and disconnect vacuum, make sure the line is dead at idle.  If it isn't add secondary idle and close primary blades.  If it is dead, shut it down and figure out why you are cross firing.  It could be as easy as too much plug gap, to bad cao rotor or wires
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Yellow Truck

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Ross - I didn't know what to make of it. Hadn't seen it before but was warned that the multi-spark on the MSD box could lead to strange timing light behaviour.

I'm going out on a limb and guessing that if it is cross fire and I'm seeing the 90 degree mark show up with the pickup on the #1 wire, it is most likely the #4 that is causing it and maybe it is induced from the wires. I'm always careful about #7 and #8, but since I just re-layed the wires over the top of the engine I may have a couple lying together.

If not I'll look at the cap and rotor.

Vacuum is disconnected at this point. Could be that I have a bad clamping surface. I think Drew gave me some advice on fixing that and I will attend to it in a bit.

Sooner or later I should get my MSD "Ready to Die" distributor back from MSD and I'll try it again and see if I get more than 12 minutes out of it this time. I think the wires on there are good, although I will recheck the connections at the plugs and cap, but I have brand new wires for the MSD.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

Drew Pojedinec

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I've mentioned a few times that you need to pay attention to which timing light you use with an MSD.

With the FE firing order, if you think it could just be cross firing or a problem like that, put the timing light pickup on #6 and it should flash 180 out and thus be readable on your balancer.

Yellow Truck

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Drew - I will try that. I am using an Innova electronic/led light and it seems pretty consistent. I haven't checked it against my buddy's since I put in the box - he has a very old analogue Snapon - but when I started seeing the drift I had him bring his over to make sure my problem wasn't in the light.

I don't think I've seen this 90 degree thing before, but I think I have occasionally seen a jump with the light - possibly to a part of the balancer that doesn't have a mark. It is possible that I only really noticed it because this time there was a mark in the field of view.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.