Author Topic: Starting to understand why building engines may be best left to the professional  (Read 116060 times)

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Yellow Truck

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I cut open the filter and pulled out the media. I has about 30 minutes of running time on the oil and filter. It was pretty clean, maybe 6 or 7 little spots of dirt and one very small metal flake.

Sadly I can't post images directly to this forum, and Photobucket isn't feeling well today, so I can't post the pictures. I'm not afraid of a more serious problem with that tick (almost a knocking sound at idle), and it sounds like it is timed to a valve or rocker. It is a bit odd that it shows up when the engine is warm, but it becomes a little quieter when the heads are filled with oil. I am not concerned about a bad rod bearing based on what is in the oil filter.

Next, mark the screw position, make sure the choke is out of play, put the carb back, and see how it runs with no PCV or vacuum advance.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

BattlestarGalactic

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Wish FB was working as I could show you pics of the two 1850's that were on the Willys when I started on the 427 car 3 yrs ago.  Someone had tried to "tune" it.  Ya, they had it all screwed up(literally).  I found their fix for the open holes on the throttle blades when that failed to help.  They just put some sheetmetal screws up from the bottom!!!! :o  Ya, heaven forbid they came loose as the motor would eat them in a heartbeat.

I tore the carbs down, replaced the blades, rejetted them to stock, flat filed all the surfaces and bolted them back on.  Few a few quick turns of the mixture screws, it was running/idling perfectly.  Ugh.
Larry

fryedaddy

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you sure that ticking aint an exhaust leak.i had a small hole in my header in a spot where you could not see it till i took the header off.i would have bet money i had a medal to medal tick
1966 comet caliente 428 4 speed owned since 1983                                                 1973 f250 ranger xlt 360 4 speed papaw bought new

Yellow Truck

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The tick is from under the rocker. I had header leaks last year and this is different.

Phototbucket seems to be feeling better (if you follow down the pleat from my thumb on the second image, near the bottom you can see the fleck of metal):


1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

Yellow Truck

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Small progress. Got the carb back on, it started pretty quickly and ran it a few minutes until it was warm and would hold idle at around 750.

Got the timing up to 18 degrees, it was holding the idle a little higher - up around 1,000, and vacuum was up just under 10 inches. I don't know how accurate the gauge is so I'll call it 10. Turned all the mixture screws in 1/4 and the vacuum fell back to 8. Turned them back and got 10 again, turned them out a quarter and vacuum stayed close to 10 but idle fell back slightly and it was a bit rougher. Turned them back to about where they had been to start, and turned the idle screw back a bit (closing the primary) about 1/4 turn, and the idle fell back to around 8-900.

Tried shutting it off and restarting it a few times, now it isn't really hot in the video, but the run on is reduced significantly, and you can hear in the video that it kicks back a bit on the starter.

Now, I am actually a little concerned about driving it since I was at 35 degrees total advance before, and have now moved it up so it is probably just under 40. I know how to limit the total advance on the MSD "Doesn't want to Run" distributor, but on the old Ford I haven't looked into it.

What is the safe upper limit for total timing? I don't want to melt a hole through a piston at WOT. If it is risky I'll wait until the MSD comes back since the only guy I know who can re-curve a distributor is over an hour away.
https://youtu.be/Yo-pnGjKJLw
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 07:39:39 PM by Yellow Truck »
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

Yellow Truck

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I won't be driving it until I'm confident I won't hurt it, but for my next phase, I'm going to cut off the oil under the rockers and re-do the pre-load.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

Drew Pojedinec

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The recurve guy isn't an hour away.... he is you.
To limit advance in a Ford style distributor requires a lil welding or jb weld.
The ones pictured below are a Duraspark but other types are roughly the same.

First remove the cap, than the reluctor (don't lose the roll pin).  remove the vac advance arm E-clip and remove the whole vac advance assembly.  There are two phillips head screws that hold the plate with pickup to the distributor.  Remove it.
You'll be looking at this:



There is an annoying clip that holds the advance mechanism in place.  Remove it.  Also remove the two springs.
Your advance arm will be stamped.  The one in this picture is 21L which means 42 degrees of advance.  (I know)


On the other side will be another size slot.  With centrifugal force the spring tension is finally overcome and the arm moves between that pin in the center.  The size of this slot determines total mechanical advance.
I remove the whole arm assembly and weld it up.
This is the worst weld you'll ever see:


I've also welded them up entirely prior to cutting the slot


Use an angle grinder, die grinder, whatever to cut the slot you need.  In the case of BBM heads if you want 18 degrees of advance, and 34 total you'd want an 8L or 16 degrees of mechanical advance.  18initial + 16 mechanical = 34 total  (for the record with your setup I think I'd be more at 20initial 32 total, but whatever)
This would be achieved with a .350 size slot, like this one:


Sometimes there is a lil rubber cover on the advance pin, this obviously changes your full mechanical a small amount.

See the rubber bushing on the advance pin in this picture below with the welded/ground slot all installed.


You could do the same with JB weld I assume..... I dunno I have a mig welder, so that is what I do.

Drew
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 09:24:30 PM by Drew Pojedinec »

Yellow Truck

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Very interesting. I don't weld, haven't since high school, but JB Weld is possible, I also know people who weld. Questions, first, I assume the 21L side is not important since the other side is what is providing the limit of movement.

If we mess with the other side, and I note you welded the whole slot and then cut the new slot, I assume the position of the slot matters - that is to say it has to start at a specific point and then the cut carries on for a specific distance. How do you find the right spot to start cutting?

If I want 32 to 33 degrees total timing and 20 degrees initial, how do you determine the width of the slot? I see you say .350 equals 16 degrees, I assume it is simple arithmetic that .2625 equals 12 degrees (.350/16*12) if I want 20 and 12 for 32 total.

I can see why MSD went a different way, but I'd rather not wait so may have a go at this.

And again, thanks for the detailed tutorial. I assume you think running it with 38 degrees even for a short period is a bad idea.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

Drew Pojedinec

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Very interesting. I don't weld, haven't since high school, but JB Weld is possible, I also know people who weld. Questions, first, I assume the 21L side is not important since the other side is what is providing the limit of movement.

Another option is just making a bushing for the center pin to limit total travel.
I see no reason JB weld wouldn't work, and have heard others doing it.  I'm normally doing this to someone elses engine and don't feel like waiting for jb weld to cure, so there is that.  Yes, you only use one side so the other side doesn't matter.  On other projects I've jb welded stuff and set it on cardboard.  after it dries, just razor the part off and use a flap wheel to clean everything up, no problems.  This is also a good time to clean and oil everything.  I find on most of the old stock Ford engines that people bring around the mechanical advance is sticky and sometimes doesn't even work.  Old grease, dust, grit gets stuck.  I take it all apart and work it with oil until it spins with no effort.

Quote
If we mess with the other side, and I note you welded the whole slot and then cut the new slot, I assume the position of the slot matters - that is to say it has to start at a specific point and then the cut carries on for a specific distance. How do you find the right spot to start cutting?
The springs will pull it back so the *exact* start point isn't 100% critical.  That said, I measure that section prior to welding and try my best to get it back to the same size after cutting.

Quote
If I want 32 to 33 degrees total timing and 20 degrees initial, how do you determine the width of the slot? I see you say .350 equals 16 degrees, I assume it is simple arithmetic that .2625 equals 12 degrees (.350/16*12) if I want 20 and 12 for 32 total.

.268 or therebouts for 12 degrees.  As stated, the bushing on the stop pin and wear can change this slightly since we are dealing with something so small.  For changing where the advance comes it, it's simply a matter of swapping some springs around and bending the spring tabs to add or subtract the rpm in which the arm starts to move.  It'd be nice if I bought a distributor machine, but I have done this many many times ON the engine to test.  Most times I wind up pretty darn close the first time, but you may have to remove the advance arm once or twice to get everything 100% perfect (especially where the advance happens).  Thankfully with a Duraspark there is a cut out in the plate that goes over all of this so you can move the spring tab a little with everything assembled and just the dist cap off.

Quote
I can see why MSD went a different way, but I'd rather not wait so may have a go at this.
Yeah, the msd bushing is nice, and it's all right on top for you to adjust.  I have only messed with a few dozen of those, but kinda wish they made a ton more bushings :P   Even the biggest, high dollar MSD comes with a stupid timing curve and needs to be adjusted.  Normally I wouldn't bother explaining this stuff or linking photos, but you seem to want to tinker, and I'm all for that sort of behavior.

Quote
And again, thanks for the detailed tutorial. I assume you think running it with 38 degrees even for a short period is a bad idea.
It's certainly not a good idea..... I would think you'd start finding some aluminum specks on your spark plugs after a few hard runs.

Ohh and please ignore some of the people on the FTE forum (where you have an ongoing thread), some of them are giving iffy advice.

For more info, Scotty at Reincarnation (really a great dude) wrote this some years ago:
http://www.reincarnation-automotive.com/Duraspark_distributor_recurve_instructions_index.html

Dp

Yellow Truck

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Drew, thanks. I do want to tinker. The whole point of doing this was to get into the nitty gritty. I'll start taking the dizzy apart today.

You are right about the FTE forum. The best advice I get over there is on sourcing parts. Bill, known as NumberDummy, is unbelievable at finding old Ford parts. I got the LAST NOS bushing in the world for my power steering bracket with his help. Best part, it cost me $5 plus postage from Texas. I am also looking at some advice on replacing the power brake booster and master cylinder to go to a smaller booster, and ways to get front discs on my beast.

With this engine drum brakes and a weak vacuum resulted in some long stopping distances.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

Drew Pojedinec

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Easiest front disc swap I've done is just stealing the parts from a 73-79 truck.
I normally just take both Ibeams  (really it's just a couple bolts and is nicer than beating on kingpins in a junkyard).

I refuse to run bourgeois things like power brakes, so can't help ya there.  Numberdummy is pretty great at that.  He's not so great at "out of the box" thinking and has told me I'm doing everything wrong because I sometimes make my own parts :P
(My user name is DeepRoots over there)

I love the nitty gritty.  Minus shortblocks (machine shop tools are a lil expensive) I do everything on my old stuff.  I especially like carburetors and transmissions.

Yellow Truck

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I agree - NumberDummy is very much a factor parts guy. Still, when you need one he is an incredible resource.

The manual brakes on the truck were pretty hard to use, compounded by the pedal positions I really felt the need for some boost. Same with the manual steering - put an old style hydraulic ram set up on it from a 73. With the original tires it was tolerable, but with the big boots it was a monster to steer at low speeds.

No I-beams, I have an open knuckle Dana 44 to contend with, so the swap is a little more complex.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

My427stang

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Is this an F100 or F250?  I believe that on the 1/2 ton D44s that the conversion kit you can purchase for early Broncos is a bolt on, although I haven't done it.  Not cheap  but not crazy either for all new parts.  I do plan on doing it on my 71, the drum brakes, even with the uber-bourgeois dual diaphragm booster and Chebby master, can get a bit sporty with a deep breathing 445.  :)
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

chris401

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I agree - NumberDummy is very much a factor parts guy. Still, when you need one he is an incredible resource.

The manual brakes on the truck were pretty hard to use, compounded by the pedal positions I really felt the need for some boost. Same with the manual steering - put an old style hydraulic ram set up on it from a 73. With the original tires it was tolerable, but with the big boots it was a monster to steer at low speeds.

No I-beams, I have an open knuckle Dana 44 to contend with, so the swap is a little more complex.
The bump side power brake boosters are small enough to allow tall FE valve covers R&R. I guesstimated a 20% shorter stopping distance from 120 to 0 when I did the factory 1973 disk on my 2wd I-Beam 65 F100. It still had some brake fade around 50 mph to 0 but not as bad as the drums did. The 73 backing plates were deeper and if I remember correctly used 3 1/2" shoes. I never toyed with an adjustable proportioning valve but easing some pressure the HAND operated parking brake gave the truck more stopping power.

The widest tire I have ran lately without power steering is 235. Trick is to keep the tire rolling. Even 1/4" a second on pavement and you can whip the wheel one handed. The 65 17" steering wheel helps to.

Drew Pojedinec

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the drum brakes, even with the uber-bourgeois dual diaphragm booster and Chebby master, can get a bit sporty with a deep breathing 445.  :) 
those are drum brakes tho....  disc/drum setup with manual master is pretty freaking awesome.
I have this setup on my daily driver F100 and my 63.5 which also has a 445.  Only time I've ever seen this setup suck is with a stock convertor as it's annoying to hold the brake down at a redlight, but who runs a stock convertor?  :P