Dyno Mule to Test 351C Intakes on the Intake Adapter, Carb and EFI

[Joe-JDC]

3. The EFI intakes clearly need a larger throttle body for 504 cubic inches since they leveled out in the upper rpm ranges.(I have seen this when using 5.0 intakes on stroker 351Ws). 

Joe do you think that is because of to little throttle body or dual plane intake design (prolly both?). We had a 1k cfm body on there. Also may not have had large enough injectors for 504 inches (60 lbs) as those were my injectors for a 440 inch street motor.
Your comments make me curious about using Jays ported RPM with a larger throttle body and larger injectors. Assuming of course that it got changed to a port injected deal. Hmm.

The TFS intakes did not have enough material to open them up larger, or I would have cut them for an 88mm or larger throttle body before sending to Jay.  I believe they can be opened up a small amount, but the mismatch will still be a detriment to airflow at higher rpms.  The manifolds are capable of flowing 500+ cfm, but the opening for the throttle body is the limiting factor as cast.  I use a 88mm Lightning throttle body on my 383W in my '86 GT with the ported Cobra upper plenum, and found that was still almost too small for high rpm usage.  The 504 needs at least a 110mm IMO.  Joe-JDC

[mike7570]

3. The EFI intakes clearly need a larger throttle body for 504 cubic inches since they leveled out in the upper rpm ranges.(I have seen this when using 5.0 intakes on stroker 351Ws). 

Joe do you think that is because of to little throttle body or dual plane intake design (prolly both?). We had a 1k cfm body on there. Also may not have had large enough injectors for 504 inches (60 lbs) as those were my injectors for a 440 inch street motor.
Your comments make me curious about using Jays ported RPM with a larger throttle body and larger injectors. Assuming of course that it got changed to a port injected deal. Hmm.

The TFS intakes did not have enough material to open them up larger, or I would have cut them for an 88mm or larger throttle body before sending to Jay.  I believe they can be opened up a small amount, but the mismatch will still be a detriment to airflow at higher rpms.  The manifolds are capable of flowing 500+ cfm, but the opening for the throttle body is the limiting factor as cast.  I use a 88mm Lightning throttle body on my 383W in my '86 GT with the ported Cobra upper plenum, and found that was still almost too small for high rpm usage.  The 504 needs at least a 110mm IMO.  Joe-JDC

Or a turbo

[JamesonRacing]

What happened with the 13006 intake adaptor/Edelbrock 2863 combo?

Not tested yet, it needs a porting job from Mr. Craine.  I will test it in a few months...

Good deal! Was worried it slipped off the slate. I'm kicking around porting this combo for my 504. Depending on how it works on your 504 

I'm using a 2863 top on my 496" engine.  Joe Craine ported the top and bottom parts.  I don't have dyno numbers, but the engine seems to like the setup.  On top is an older 1050 dominator.

[Barry_R]

A few thoughts.  Actually mirroring other folks comments.

First is to say Thanks for all the info and effort.

The Moore intake was almost exactly the same as when I ran it with a 4150 - but I never tried a Dominator and that showed a huge improvement.  Might indicate a lot more potential to that box design with added development.  Look at the Ford Cobra R EFI intake as an example - a big box with runners extending inside of the plenum.

Next is that tunnel rams rock!  Always have.  Always will.  They went out of fashion because car magazines did not like taking pictures of stuff hanging out of the hood.  But they win pretty much every engine comparison ever done.

I will also double up on the comments about that 1971 Ford piece with the Dominator - that deal would look pretty tame under the hood with an air filter in place - and it would pounce on a bunch of newer stuff.  Those guys absolutely knew what they were doing.

I have run what was essentially the prototype of the three piece timing set on the past two Engine Masters entries without any issue at all.  It works perfectly and has no movement or sign of any distress.  It is currently installed on this years iteration.

The BT medium risers Jay has would definitely pick up power.  I ran a set with that same porting program in the first EMC engine I entered.  At 505 cubes it made 752HP.  I suspect that Jay has a Victor intake to match...

[jayb]

I do still have that Victor intake, Barry, been saving it for a special project...

[turbohunter]

Jay
Thanks again for this write up.
Since I now have my system I've been studying for the wire up.
I have almost pm'd you a couple times but went back to see if you had covered it in your text and sure enough, you did.
For instance I was at first confused by the wiring diagram from MS regarding fuel pump connection.
But going back and re reading it dawned on me (because it's written down ) why it's wired as it is.
It was always there but until I couldn't relate to it until the need arose.
Actually think I understand it pretty well now.
Thanks

[jayb]

Great to hear, Marc, thanks.  When I went into all that detail I was hoping it would serve as a guide for anyone doing the EFI conversion.

[turbohunter]

Mission accomplished.

[70cj428]

Been trying to post on this forum for ages, just figured out my password 

Thanks for the ton of effort you put into this testing and sharing the data   

Anyway If you plan on retesting your 3D printed manifold I have another manifold you can try, It's a factory D1ZX-FA manifold with a 4150/4160 carb flange.(no Idea why ford made it but it's factory ....)

Also have a D1ZX-DA (dual plane 4150 flange) , and a Bud Moore box with a factory dominator top

All the Bud Moore maxi plenums I've seen have that divider added under the top. since these are so terrible with a carb, I wonder if it's worth doing an EFI conversion on one ....

Let me know if you want to borrow any of these ...

John

[482supersnake]

Hey Jay, how hard would it be to mount a 351W intake onto one of your intake adapters?

https://www.holley.com/products/intakes/efi_manifolds/parts/300-242

[jayb]

The 351W deck height is 0.3" higher than the 351C deck height, so the intake would sit quite a bit higher on the intake adapter than a standard Cleveland intake would, with the associated port mismatch problem.  The bolt pattern is also different.  It might be possible to make it work, by milling the intake adapter face 0.3" and remaking the bolt holes, but I haven't tried it.

[Dumpling]

I used one of their adapters to mount a 302W intake onto one of Jay' s adapters:

http://www.pricemotorsport.com/html/body_intake_adapters.html

http://www.pricemotorsport.com/html/body_ap-34__intake_adapter_kit.html

Note that the above adapter is for 2V Cleveland heads, and in general I'd be worried about displacement being properly supplied if you get up into the upper limits of the FE block.

[Joey120373]

So looking at the data on the trick flow BoxR manifold, it is pretty impressive up to ~5000-5500 rpm, achieving average numbers that are just shy of the tunnel ram.

Its quite evident though ( as pointed out ) that the 90mm TB restricts this manifold to ~650 HP.

My thought is that this would be a really good " street " manifold for someone who wanted a smaller cam, 5500 rpm max torque monster.
Just a shame that it wont accommodate a larger TB.

I am very curious what this manifold would do if a larger TB could be fitted, so i did a little poking around and found this :

http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-5-8-engine-tech/2301594-105mm-throttle-body-w-box-r-intake.html

Accufab makes a 105mm TB that " fits ", with a bit of grinding and finger crossing that it will seal it has been used on the BOX R intake.

To me it looks like a spacer could be made to help the sealing issue a bit, although the porting work to the plenumn opening leaves little surface area to hold a gasket. I wonder how much better the power would be in the higher RPM ranges with a 105mm TB.......

[jayb]

Thanks for posting that, I think the 105mm throttle body would help quite a bit.  It looks to me like you could take a small piece of aluminum and weld, or even JB Weld, to the flange of the Box-R plenum to make that work.  Shouldn't be that tough...

[Joey120373]

Jay, PM sent