Author Topic: Thoughts and suggestions on a wide band O2 sensor?  (Read 6775 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Yellow Truck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 608
    • View Profile
Thoughts and suggestions on a wide band O2 sensor?
« on: November 28, 2016, 07:27:52 PM »
With my truck put away for the winter, I am thinking ahead to starting to tune the carb, then the timing on my still very fresh 445 (I managed to get it to run well enough to put an hour of driving time on it).

I'm considering buying an O2 sensor to help with tuning and am wondering what I need to know. For example, should I be looking at an A/B sensor (one for each bank), on that installs in the truck, or one that has a hand held unit.

I don't know a lot of people who have one. One point, I don't have a second vehicle that could use one, so being able to move from vehicle to vehicle would have limited value.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

BattlestarGalactic

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1296
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts and suggestions on a wide band O2 sensor?
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2016, 08:34:50 PM »
I just got an Autometer wide band.  I had a $100 gift certificate from my racing and figured I woiud burn it up on one.   They are $199 list so for $100 I got one.  I have a narrow band in my black car with the blower that I bought years ago.  Since I just put it away for the winter I wont be able to play with it til spring.
Larry

Drew Pojedinec

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2116
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts and suggestions on a wide band O2 sensor?
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2016, 09:42:30 PM »
I've considered getting a wide band for years.
Seems like tho, every time I see someone playing with one, they seem like they are chasing their tail.  Or more specifically chasing a proper number.  Seems like any cam with a good bit of overlap would rule out low rpm tuning and all you'd be able to change is jets.  I dunno if it'd be worth it.  Either way, it'd be fun to play with, but I dunno if I'm savy enough to get much good out of one.

Seems like, sure it takes me a few months of driving, making a small change, driving making a small change, etc, but I always seem to get it tuned perfectly.  I think I'll just stick to doing it that way.

Either way, good luck.

KMcCullah

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 733
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts and suggestions on a wide band O2 sensor?
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2016, 11:11:36 AM »
+1 on what Drew said, Paul. If used as a reference item, a wideband o2 sensor is handy thing. But chasing an absolute AFR number will make you crazy and most likely not be what your particular combo likes anyhow.  I put an Innovate Motorsports LC-1 in my truck several years ago. I was mainly concerned with my WOT AFR. Didn't want a lean condition. I tweaked jetting until I was at a safe AFR and then finished my jetting on the chassis dyno. I was pretty close really. Took out 2 jet sizes and picked up 8hp.
Kevin McCullah


cammerfe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1654
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts and suggestions on a wide band O2 sensor?
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2016, 01:12:48 PM »
I have an Innovate that hooks to a lap top. Knowing is better than not knowing.

KS

ScotiaFE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1409
  • Howie
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts and suggestions on a wide band O2 sensor?
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2016, 03:07:36 PM »
I'm on the side of buy one.
The amount of data that you will see is way more than starring at the carb and looking
at the plugs.
I actually don't own one, but have seen the data from an Innovate on the Lap Top.
If I had more money for my junk operations I would have one for sure. ;)

drdano

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 537
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts and suggestions on a wide band O2 sensor?
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2016, 03:28:52 PM »
I picked up an Innovate LM-2 and it's been a lot of help for tuning.  Being an engineer, I like to see data.  Some folks can "hear" when engines are lean/rich/other but for me I like to see what the sensor is telling me as I make adjustments.  It's been great.  If you go this route, use a weld-in bung, don't even attempt to use the tailpipe do-hickey they sell...it doesn't work nearly as well.

Here's a post about some data collection I did while attempting to drag race the car: http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=1109

The Real McCoy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts and suggestions on a wide band O2 sensor?
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2016, 09:34:51 PM »
+1 on installing an AF Sensor.

I installed an AEM wide band sensor on my Quick Fuel 2 x 4 setup to help troubleshoot a rich condition on idle and transition.  It works very well to document what is happening and is especially helpful to document incremental changes when changing IAB's and IFR's. I have one of David Vizards books on Holley carbs and the book highly recommends adding an AF sensor to really dial a carburetor in if the budget allows for it.  Reading spark plugs has value but most hobbyist's, that would be me, do not have the experience and knowledge to document the effects of a slight change just by looking at the plugs.

I would say it is not exactly stable at an idle but settles down once the RPM starts building.  Even though it is not stable at idle it is definitely good enough to detect incremental changes that are made.  The sensor on mine is mounted on a welded bung in the H pipe about 3" behind the curbside header outlet, headers are cast iron full length 63 Galaxie pieces.
63 1/2 Galaxie 500
428 CJ Stroker with 427 2x4 Intake, 427 Long Exhaust Manifolds, Quick Fuel Carbs and TKO 600.

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it’s what we know for sure that just ain’t so."                            Mark Twain

Yellow Truck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 608
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts and suggestions on a wide band O2 sensor?
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2016, 01:31:48 AM »
Ok, so let us assume I'm going to buy one. The questions were:

A two bank (A/B) O2 sensor, and one that is meant to have a built in display or one that is intended to be moved from vehicle to vehicle. I agree that I will go with welded in bungs, not the tail pipe gizmo.

Looking at the adverts I can't tell if they will download info to a computer or not. Also, if it does report to a computer, does it give you RPM data, and if so how? Not to seem totally ignorant, but to get a good read on the data you would need some thing to tell you what was happening with the RPM (i.e. transition from idle or cruise to WOT).

My questions are probably naive but the sensors and gauges advertised don't provide much info on how to use them.

BTW I agree that a novice like me (with Vizard's book) needs data because I can't rely on experience.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

ScotiaFE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1409
  • Howie
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts and suggestions on a wide band O2 sensor?
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2016, 06:36:04 AM »
Ok, so let us assume I'm going to buy one. The questions were:

A two bank (A/B) O2 sensor, and one that is meant to have a built in display or one that is intended to be moved from vehicle to vehicle. I agree that I will go with welded in bungs, not the tail pipe gizmo.

Looking at the adverts I can't tell if they will download info to a computer or not. Also, if it does report to a computer, does it give you RPM data, and if so how? Not to seem totally ignorant, but to get a good read on the data you would need some thing to tell you what was happening with the RPM (i.e. transition from idle or cruise to WOT).

My questions are probably naive but the sensors and gauges advertised don't provide much info on how to use them.

BTW I agree that a novice like me (with Vizard's book) needs data because I can't rely on experience.

Yes you can read the RPM and even driveshaft speed (which I would love to see), but you have to spend more money than I have.
In reality though you can get pretty good data with just entry level unit.
Fun costs money how much fun do you want. ;)

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/ssi_4.php



Falcon67

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2151
    • View Profile
    • Kelly's Hot Rod Page
Re: Thoughts and suggestions on a wide band O2 sensor?
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2016, 09:24:26 AM »
I use an older Innovate LM-1 for which I recently bought some data logging add-ons.  I use that because after tuning, why have some meter permanently installed taking up space.  So I'd lean towards an LM-2 setup.   Mod the exhaust for the sensor, test, tune, remove and cap the port.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lm2.php

Tommy-T

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 313
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts and suggestions on a wide band O2 sensor?
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2016, 03:50:34 PM »
I also have an older Innovate LM-1.

I have Mrs.-T yell out lambda numbers in real time while running my hot rod through the gears at full song.

A great way to bond with the wife.

You might get some useful info out of it too! :)

jayb

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7399
    • View Profile
    • FE Power
Re: Thoughts and suggestions on a wide band O2 sensor?
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2016, 04:59:38 PM »
We need a GoPro video of that... ;D
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

cjshaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4449
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts and suggestions on a wide band O2 sensor?
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2016, 10:25:33 AM »
Tommy has actually posted a video of this before. I can confirm that he has a cool wife who's not intimidated with a heavy application of throttle. A rarity indeed.

The O2 sensor shouldn't even be needed at idle, so whether or not it is stable at idle shouldn't be a concern. Even to a novice, the engine will react and tell you very plainly what it likes and doesn't like. Off idle is a different story.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

427LX

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts and suggestions on a wide band O2 sensor?
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2016, 09:04:25 PM »
Been using my LM-1 for years tuning my carb setups. You really need it if you want a good tune for street use and YES you will be tearing into the carb/carbs many times to get it right.
When I setup my dual Holley 600 carbs everything came together nicely with LM-1 assisted tuning.
 When I made a change to the larger 1 11/16 throttle bodies the Idle cruise circuit went to pieces going leaner as cruise RPM went up before the main system kicked in.
Without the A/F data I would have been still trying to figure it out!