FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Yellow Truck on November 28, 2016, 07:27:52 PM
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With my truck put away for the winter, I am thinking ahead to starting to tune the carb, then the timing on my still very fresh 445 (I managed to get it to run well enough to put an hour of driving time on it).
I'm considering buying an O2 sensor to help with tuning and am wondering what I need to know. For example, should I be looking at an A/B sensor (one for each bank), on that installs in the truck, or one that has a hand held unit.
I don't know a lot of people who have one. One point, I don't have a second vehicle that could use one, so being able to move from vehicle to vehicle would have limited value.
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I just got an Autometer wide band. I had a $100 gift certificate from my racing and figured I woiud burn it up on one. They are $199 list so for $100 I got one. I have a narrow band in my black car with the blower that I bought years ago. Since I just put it away for the winter I wont be able to play with it til spring.
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I've considered getting a wide band for years.
Seems like tho, every time I see someone playing with one, they seem like they are chasing their tail. Or more specifically chasing a proper number. Seems like any cam with a good bit of overlap would rule out low rpm tuning and all you'd be able to change is jets. I dunno if it'd be worth it. Either way, it'd be fun to play with, but I dunno if I'm savy enough to get much good out of one.
Seems like, sure it takes me a few months of driving, making a small change, driving making a small change, etc, but I always seem to get it tuned perfectly. I think I'll just stick to doing it that way.
Either way, good luck.
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+1 on what Drew said, Paul. If used as a reference item, a wideband o2 sensor is handy thing. But chasing an absolute AFR number will make you crazy and most likely not be what your particular combo likes anyhow. I put an Innovate Motorsports LC-1 in my truck several years ago. I was mainly concerned with my WOT AFR. Didn't want a lean condition. I tweaked jetting until I was at a safe AFR and then finished my jetting on the chassis dyno. I was pretty close really. Took out 2 jet sizes and picked up 8hp.
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I have an Innovate that hooks to a lap top. Knowing is better than not knowing.
KS
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I'm on the side of buy one.
The amount of data that you will see is way more than starring at the carb and looking
at the plugs.
I actually don't own one, but have seen the data from an Innovate on the Lap Top.
If I had more money for my junk operations I would have one for sure. ;)
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I picked up an Innovate LM-2 and it's been a lot of help for tuning. Being an engineer, I like to see data. Some folks can "hear" when engines are lean/rich/other but for me I like to see what the sensor is telling me as I make adjustments. It's been great. If you go this route, use a weld-in bung, don't even attempt to use the tailpipe do-hickey they sell...it doesn't work nearly as well.
Here's a post about some data collection I did while attempting to drag race the car: http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=1109
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+1 on installing an AF Sensor.
I installed an AEM wide band sensor on my Quick Fuel 2 x 4 setup to help troubleshoot a rich condition on idle and transition. It works very well to document what is happening and is especially helpful to document incremental changes when changing IAB's and IFR's. I have one of David Vizards books on Holley carbs and the book highly recommends adding an AF sensor to really dial a carburetor in if the budget allows for it. Reading spark plugs has value but most hobbyist's, that would be me, do not have the experience and knowledge to document the effects of a slight change just by looking at the plugs.
I would say it is not exactly stable at an idle but settles down once the RPM starts building. Even though it is not stable at idle it is definitely good enough to detect incremental changes that are made. The sensor on mine is mounted on a welded bung in the H pipe about 3" behind the curbside header outlet, headers are cast iron full length 63 Galaxie pieces.
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Ok, so let us assume I'm going to buy one. The questions were:
A two bank (A/B) O2 sensor, and one that is meant to have a built in display or one that is intended to be moved from vehicle to vehicle. I agree that I will go with welded in bungs, not the tail pipe gizmo.
Looking at the adverts I can't tell if they will download info to a computer or not. Also, if it does report to a computer, does it give you RPM data, and if so how? Not to seem totally ignorant, but to get a good read on the data you would need some thing to tell you what was happening with the RPM (i.e. transition from idle or cruise to WOT).
My questions are probably naive but the sensors and gauges advertised don't provide much info on how to use them.
BTW I agree that a novice like me (with Vizard's book) needs data because I can't rely on experience.
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Ok, so let us assume I'm going to buy one. The questions were:
A two bank (A/B) O2 sensor, and one that is meant to have a built in display or one that is intended to be moved from vehicle to vehicle. I agree that I will go with welded in bungs, not the tail pipe gizmo.
Looking at the adverts I can't tell if they will download info to a computer or not. Also, if it does report to a computer, does it give you RPM data, and if so how? Not to seem totally ignorant, but to get a good read on the data you would need some thing to tell you what was happening with the RPM (i.e. transition from idle or cruise to WOT).
My questions are probably naive but the sensors and gauges advertised don't provide much info on how to use them.
BTW I agree that a novice like me (with Vizard's book) needs data because I can't rely on experience.
Yes you can read the RPM and even driveshaft speed (which I would love to see), but you have to spend more money than I have.
In reality though you can get pretty good data with just entry level unit.
Fun costs money how much fun do you want. ;)
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/ssi_4.php
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I use an older Innovate LM-1 for which I recently bought some data logging add-ons. I use that because after tuning, why have some meter permanently installed taking up space. So I'd lean towards an LM-2 setup. Mod the exhaust for the sensor, test, tune, remove and cap the port.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lm2.php
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I also have an older Innovate LM-1.
I have Mrs.-T yell out lambda numbers in real time while running my hot rod through the gears at full song.
A great way to bond with the wife.
You might get some useful info out of it too! :)
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We need a GoPro video of that... ;D
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Tommy has actually posted a video of this before. I can confirm that he has a cool wife who's not intimidated with a heavy application of throttle. A rarity indeed.
The O2 sensor shouldn't even be needed at idle, so whether or not it is stable at idle shouldn't be a concern. Even to a novice, the engine will react and tell you very plainly what it likes and doesn't like. Off idle is a different story.
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Been using my LM-1 for years tuning my carb setups. You really need it if you want a good tune for street use and YES you will be tearing into the carb/carbs many times to get it right.
When I setup my dual Holley 600 carbs everything came together nicely with LM-1 assisted tuning.
When I made a change to the larger 1 11/16 throttle bodies the Idle cruise circuit went to pieces going leaner as cruise RPM went up before the main system kicked in.
Without the A/F data I would have been still trying to figure it out!
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Been using my LM-1 for years tuning my carb setups. You really need it if you want a good tune for street use and YES you will be tearing into the carb/carbs many times to get it right.
When I setup my dual Holley 600 carbs everything came together nicely with LM-1 assisted tuning.
When I made a change to the larger 1 11/16 throttle bodies the Idle cruise circuit went to pieces going leaner as cruise RPM went up before the main system kicked in.
Without the A/F data I would have been still trying to figure it out!
Thanks, I appreciate the input. I don't have enough experience to rely on the "seat of my pants". Data helps explain what is going on. BTW, once I get the QFT 830 worked out I've been thinking I'd like try my hand at a dual carb set up. Nothing to do but dream since it snowed about 3 inches today and we can look forward to -10 most of next week.
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I am now using the AEM A/F gauge mostly because it has a easier to see display and it is smaller in overall size.
When I need to check the tune I just mount it next to the tach on the dash pad.
I don't use it as a permanent setup.
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I recently put the Auto Meter wideband 02 sensor permanently in my car. From a novice point of view,I like knowing if I'm running fat or lean.
Being relatively new at turning wrenches, I need all the help I can get. The first thing I noticed was how much the meter fluctuated from the warm weather to cold when I start the engine....Why would that be ??
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The first thing I noticed was how much the meter fluctuated from the warm weather to cold when I start the engine....Why would that be ??
Oxygen available is one part. Heat makes the fuel easier to vaporize and mix with the air. This is why most engines that aren't tuned seasonally take longer to warm up and run perfectly in the winter. (I daily drive a carbureted vehicle year round, it's pretty apparent on a 20 degree morning with no choke)