519" SOHC Build

[Hemi Joel]

napa filters used to be Wix filters. Maybe they are changing over to somthing cheaper?? the wix 5151R is pretty stout, maybe grab one of them untill you get the oil pressure fixed.

[Royce]

Jay, I have had those filter explosions before   on a 428   in R&R dyno cell.. Ron was NOT happy.

He almost demands a Fram HP filter for any dyno session if the engine has heavy oil or a high pressure pump....they are stout construction. Same filter as top fuel guys use.  Now if you had a Y block with an external oil pump .....

[cammerfe]

If you have a 'Y' block, be sure you use the right oil pump shims. Ask me how I know! (If I can remember---it was 45 years ago!)

KS

[machoneman]

It's a stuck bypass IMHO.

Had a Ford 300 CID in-line six  I re-did long ago for a relative (never does a good deed go unpunished!). Blew off 3 filters in a row. Turns out, it was my boo-booh in cleaning the pump and cover in water/non-solvent bath and I failed to WD-40 or oil the bypass valve.... it rusted up a tad. A new pump and all was well. Btw, not saying that Jay did the same thing but in my experience with blowing off a filter, 9 out of 10 times it is a stuck by-pass.

[jayb]

It's a stuck bypass IMHO.

Had a Ford 300 CID in-line six  I re-did long ago for a relative (never does a good deed go unpunished!). Blew off 3 filters in a row. Turns out, it was my boo-booh in cleaning the pump and cover in water/non-solvent bath and I failed to WD-40 or oil the bypass valve.... it rusted up a tad. A new pump and all was well. Btw, not saying that Jay did the same thing but in my experience with blowing off a filter, 9 out of 10 times it is a stuck by-pass.

I'll bet you are right on that.  The pump sat since I pulled the motor apart in 2009, and we've had a couple humid summers here since then.  Probably it rusted up a little, and it will need to come out.  I ran the engine again tonight and got it good and warmed up, and the idle oil pressure dropped to about 45 psi, but it still jumped up to 110+ when I revved the motor.  I'm going to try running a lighter weight oil and see if it is more tolerable; I am really unhappy with the idea that I might have to pull the pan.  Sheesh, stuck injectors, stuck oil pump bypass, what next?  This thing better make some big power numbers...

[fetorino]

Jay

I know it seems like a lot of $$ for a filter but I bet it would have been worth it to not have to clean the mess or worry about bursting.

http://www.gopurepower.com/site/products/default.asp#FILTERS

It's a handy way to periodically check what is being cleaned out of your oil.

Rob

[ScotiaFE]

Well now that you lost a NAPA Gold on the 519" and I was going to spin one on
the lowly 390 TODAY. I have changed my plan.
I picked up a Mobil 1 M1 301.
Put it next to the 1515 NAPA Gold and there is a difference.
The Mobil 1 is a little longer about 1/4" and the top is just a little more robust looking.
The seal is some how crimped on were the NAPA is loose and you can just pull it off.
The Mobil 1 is just a bit heavier, I don't have a scale that can measure the difference, but it is .
The Mobil one box says "Heavy Duty filter canister withstands 9X the normal vehicle oil system operating pressure".

I doubt I will ever buy another NAPA Gold and put it on my FE's.
On a cold start early in the morning I see about 85 psi on the gauge on the 390.
A popped oil filter would just ruin my whole day.

What actually let go Jay?

[Barry_R]

Couple things to add.

Never popped a filter on the dyno.  At least not yet.  But I have had a couple of Doug's pumps and they tend to have pretty high cold oil pressure that normalizes once the engine gets warmed up.  Must have a fairly high bypass pressure and tight internal clearances.  I caution customers using them to let things get warmed up before winging the engine.  They work very well at normal temps.

On the chain oiling - have you ever run a Cammer with a valve cover off?  I did on a problematic customer engine and was amazed to see the amount of oil that spins off of the chain.  You could hit the fenders at 2000 RPM.  No problems with oiling up front.  All the drainback from the heads runs out of that 2" diameter hole up front & gets caught up in the action...

I've missed that bolt that does not go through the front cover before.  Serious leakage.....

The F.A.S.T. system works well, but the connectors have been problematic for me.  Particularly the ones going into the box itself - they come loose enough to interrupt cam signal, crank signal while still looking OK.  I blamed it on my required EMC mounting directly to the engine.  Very high vibration environment and at certain speeds the LEDs and lettering on the box was just a blur.  I also cobbled up the harness for EMC/dyno work - cut everything apart and de-pinned/removed anything I was not using - like leads for vehicle speed sensors, fan on/off function, multilevel power adder engage.  Likely took ten pounds of wire out...and then Tim added a couple big noise capacitors.

[Qikbbstang]

If you can deform the filters thin shell with your bare hands it's asking an awful lot to trust that essentially a crimped on base plate will not be ruptured from the can when you figure out the Sq In and PSI just how much total force is acting on that plate. There is a reason they make "racing oil filters" with high burst pressure ratings. However as far as I know they don't make any "racing filters" that don't sacrifice fine filtration for high flow/lower delta pressure. The large can spin-on hydraulic filters use the same shells and construction as the new "Pro" racing filters, (the new Pro racing filters design were essentially pirated from Pall and the fluid power industry.) Hands down bang for the buck when you go into an Auto Parts Store that sells all of their Filter Mfgs filter models for one set price, when you see the large can big thread filters by Mobil 1 etc Wix Fram etc that fit the large can racing remote filter head-mounts someone's losing their ass at the $10 or so they sell em for.  Those design filters were a bargain at $100ea years ago in the filter/fluid power industry. Pick the filter up and feel the weight!
 
           Perhaps emphasis should be placed on limiting the oil pressure to what the engine needs rather then just getting filters that can deal with high pressure. Pumping 10 to 20 GPM of even a moderate weight oil at 80-100+psi requires a pretty dam decent amount of power and that also loads and wears gears and pumps. You also have to wonder if there is so much oil being pumped the bypass valving can not bleed it off: The Ford Muscle Parts catalog (p48) states "the C9ZZ-6900-A oil pump flows 22 GPM under 70-80psi @ 4,000 rpm.". I don't know about you guys but somehow capturing/sucking up 22 gpm in an FE's pan, shoving even half that much oil (50% bypass??) through a filter and on up into the blood system of an FE and expecting it to make its way back down into the pan seems like it would be a great Mission Impossible plot.
          I once was a Factory Rep for high pressure hydraulics, "Enerpac", the thought of forcing 80-120psi of oil down on to the top of a crank that essentially anyway wants to lift the main caps off the bottom of the block always makes me wonder if that crank's top fed bearings ever act on the crank and make it resemble a hydraulic ram.

   http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fram-Racing-HP6A-OIL-FILTER-OFFICIAL-NHRA-FILTER-/390401025384?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item5ae5b6e568

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NASCAR-CV-PRODUCTS-REMOTE-OIL-FILTER-MOUNT-CV-749-arca-fram-wix-race-imca-cooler-/290695257938?pt=Race_Car_Parts&vxp=mtr&hash=item43aec99f52


Quote from Jay:
"even idling at 1000 RPM hot the oil pressure is around 60 psi, and when revving it up it will go to over 120 psi."

          If I was running a dyno I'd buy the large remote NASCAR head and run the off the shelf MOBIL 1 filter that fits that head w/ the 1-1/8 -16 size thread you'd have pressure capability, flow w/o worrying it would go into bypass and you'd know your getting fine filtration all at the same price as a Mobil 1 Ford FL1 filter price.

[jayb]

Jay

I know it seems like a lot of $$ for a filter but I bet it would have been worth it to not have to clean the mess or worry about bursting.

http://www.gopurepower.com/site/products/default.asp#FILTERS

It's a handy way to periodically check what is being cleaned out of your oil.

Rob

I've got a System 1 filter like that, but I don't like it.  I ran it for a while when I was doing my intake manifold testing, but I would always see fine silver particles in the oil, probably smaller than the 15 micron size that the filter is capable of filtering out.  The particles would disappear instantly when I replaced the System 1 filter with a normal oil filter, but then would gradually come back again if I changed back.  As a result I try to stay away from screen filters for the oil.

[jayb]

Well now that you lost a NAPA Gold on the 519" and I was going to spin one on
the lowly 390 TODAY. I have changed my plan.
I picked up a Mobil 1 M1 301.

I used to always run those too, Howie, but there is no place I can get them locally so I always had to mail order them.  Eventually it became easier to just buy the NAPA filters, but now that I've had this problem I'm going back to the Mobil 1 301 filters; in fact I just ordered 8 of them yesterday.

The NAPA filter failed by bulging out and breaking the O-ring seal.  The whole bottom of the filter rounded, and the top plate also rounded, causing the gasket to lose contact to the filter itself, and pumping a bunch of oil into the pan on the dyno.

[jayb]

On the chain oiling - have you ever run a Cammer with a valve cover off?  I did on a problematic customer engine and was amazed to see the amount of oil that spins off of the chain.  You could hit the fenders at 2000 RPM.  No problems with oiling up front.  All the drainback from the heads runs out of that 2" diameter hole up front & gets caught up in the action...

I have indeed run one with the valve covers off, at Drag Week 2008 in fact, in the pits at Montgomery Intl Raceway.  I kept losing rocker arms that year and I wanted to make sure that I had good oiling to the top end, and it was no problem LOL!  However, despite this I am not convinced that all that oil will end up on the bearings for the tensioner arm and fuel pump stand.  The oil slings out from the chain, not in, where it needs to be get to those bearings.  So I'm sticking with my squirters; to me they are a no risk insurance policy.

[jayb]

If you can deform the filters thin shell with your bare hands it's asking an awful lot to trust that essentially a crimped on base plate will not be ruptured from the can when you figure out the Sq In and PSI just how much total force is acting on that plate. There is a reason they make "racing oil filters" with high burst pressure ratings. However as far as I know they don't make any "racing filters" that don't sacrifice fine filtration for high flow/lower delta pressure. The large can spin-on hydraulic filters use the same shells and construction as the new "Pro" racing filters, (the new Pro racing filters design were essentially pirated from Pall and the fluid power industry.) Hands down bang for the buck when you go into an Auto Parts Store that sells all of their Filter Mfgs filter models for one set price, when you see the large can big thread filters by Mobil 1 etc Wix Fram etc that fit the large can racing remote filter head-mounts someone's losing their ass at the $10 or so they sell em for.  Those design filters were a bargain at $100ea years ago in the filter/fluid power industry. Pick the filter up and feel the weight!
 
           Perhaps emphasis should be placed on limiting the oil pressure to what the engine needs rather then just getting filters that can deal with high pressure. Pumping 10 to 20 GPM of even a moderate weight oil at 80-100+psi requires a pretty dam decent amount of power and that also loads and wears gears and pumps. You also have to wonder if there is so much oil being pumped the bypass valving can not bleed it off: The Ford Muscle Parts catalog (p48) states "the C9ZZ-6900-A oil pump flows 22 GPM under 70-80psi @ 4,000 rpm.". I don't know about you guys but somehow capturing/sucking up 22 gpm in an FE's pan, shoving even half that much oil (50% bypass??) through a filter and on up into the blood system of an FE and expecting it to make its way back down into the pan seems like it would be a great Mission Impossible plot.
          I once was a Factory Rep for high pressure hydraulics, "Enerpac", the thought of forcing 80-120psi of oil down on to the top of a crank that essentially anyway wants to lift the main caps off the bottom of the block always makes me wonder if that crank's top fed bearings ever act on the crank and make it resemble a hydraulic ram.

   http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fram-Racing-HP6A-OIL-FILTER-OFFICIAL-NHRA-FILTER-/390401025384?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item5ae5b6e568

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NASCAR-CV-PRODUCTS-REMOTE-OIL-FILTER-MOUNT-CV-749-arca-fram-wix-race-imca-cooler-/290695257938?pt=Race_Car_Parts&vxp=mtr&hash=item43aec99f52


Quote from Jay:
"even idling at 1000 RPM hot the oil pressure is around 60 psi, and when revving it up it will go to over 120 psi."

          If I was running a dyno I'd buy the large remote NASCAR head and run the off the shelf MOBIL 1 filter that fits that head w/ the 1-1/8 -16 size thread you'd have pressure capability, flow w/o worrying it would go into bypass and you'd know your getting fine filtration all at the same price as a Mobil 1 Ford FL1 filter price.

I knew I could count on you for a response on the filter issue, BB    I like your ideas, but as you say the best approach is to solve the overpressure problem, rather than band-aid it with a killer filter setup.

[philminotti]

I've never heard of the Mobil M1-301.  I've been using the FL-1 HP.  What's the difference?  They seem to cost about the same.

phil

[jayb]

I don't know if there is a big difference; seems like they both feature heavy duty construction and they both work.  Probably six of one, half dozen of the other...