My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!

[Drew Pojedinec]

Jason, when you are ready lemme know and I'll just send you a carburetor.




Seriously, you are getting close, keep on plugging away at it.

[cobracammer]

Seriously!  LOL

OK so a few days ago, I decided to finish up the FiTech install.  After speaking with Jay and watching a few videos on Distributor Rotor Phasing, I decided it was time to lock out my distributor, install an adjustable rotor, and phase it.

With the simple part being removing the springs, weights and busing and locking out the distributor....  I started there....  And there is where I ended!  After removing the springs, weights, and stop busing, I loosened the pin on the stop collar and tried to lift the shaft, turn it 180 degrees and put it back down into position where it can be locked out.  Unfortunately on almost all but a few distributors, you have room between the gear and the collar to just lift- turn- and lock.....  The fords FE does not apparently.  With the few that don't, you are just supposed to push out the gear pin, slip off the gear, and then proceed to lock out.  When done, you slide the gear back on and put the pin back in....  With the exception being the FE distributor by MSD?  LOL  gear has a pin, but it was pressed on! (had to send the distributor back to MSD when I ordered the steel gear to have them install it.)  So after realizing that I had to get the gear slid down a little before I could lift and spin the shaft, I wrapped the gear in leather so I could hold on to it.... and then so I didn't damage the shaft, I used a rubber mallet to try and hit on the shaft a few times to just move the gear down a few millimeters!......  Well, even the rubber mallet distorted the shaft!  Oh-Crap #1.  It did manage to move the gear down enough for me to lift and spin the shaft 180 degrees and then lock it out.  After placing it in the locked out position, I replaced the lock nut and then proceeded to lightly 1 to 2 taps at a time try and tap the gear back down a few millimeters (I did this using the same rubber mallet, but a socket to fit over the end of the shaft and evenly press on the gear.,....  After 5 to 6 cycles, the gear was back down, but it seemed that the light "wacking" snapped the threaded stud and the lock washer off of the top of the distributor (Oh Crap #2)...  From this point, I had warped the shaft at the bottom (with my rubber mallet) and broken the threaded stud on the top of the distributor( purely through vibration???).....  TIME TO ORDER A NEW DISTRIBUTOR!!!!

Called MSD and explained.  Asked to order a new Pro Billet FE distributor (Pre locked out!!) with a new Steel gear pressed on......

And with just my luck, I was added to the Back order list (# -23 to be exact!).  They are hoping to start manufacturing them again on the 30th, but are not sure.  I should receive it some time in the next few weeks...  possibly..... fingers crossed.

This continues to be a learning experience (Greek Tragedy)  LOL

[cobracammer]

OK all.  I received the new distributor from MSD.  It was sent Pre-Locked out and with a new Steel distributor gear pressed on.  Before placing it back into the car, I installed the new MSD rotor which I am able to phase.  As per the instructions, I placed the rotor in the middle of the adjustment (meaning I can "advance" or "retard" the rotor tip- For lack of a better word since I understand that it has no control on the timing itself).  Then using my original marks and photos I took of the old one coming out, I tried installing it back in.  For the life of me, I could not get the rotor to line back up with the marks I made.  I tried slowly turning the oil pump shaft with the tool I have.....  no luck.  This went on for about an hour.  I must have adjusted and refit the distributor maybe 50 times.  Then it occurred to me that their might be slight differences in the new rotor that I am able to phase vs the fixed rotor that comes with the distributor(and what was on there before I took it out).   I could get very, very close, but not exact. 

My last 2 choices were being very close after the mark and having to "Retard' the rotor to get it to line up, or getting very close before the mark and "advancing" the rotor to get it to line up with the mark.

I chose getting it very close BEFORE the mark and then advancing the adjustable rotor to get it to line up with the mark.  My thought process on this was such:

When the distributor is running off of springs and weights, as you increase RPM's, the inertia from the spinning distributor retards the rotor (I think).  I thought that since the distributor is now locked out and in addition, the EFI will now be controlling spark, there will be a delay in the spark (since it has to go from the MSD ignition box to the ECU and then to the distributor (Rather than straight from the Ignition box to the distributor).  I thought that if anything, when I look to see if the rotor will need to be phased, it will most likely need to be "retarded" a little to ensure the spark is firing pretty close to the tab on the distributor cap.  The way I have it now, I will have plenty of adjustment if the cap needs to be retarded a little, but none of the rotor will need to be advanced (which I doubt if I am thinking about this correctly).  Thoughts??

Also, I took the old distributor cap and using a step drill but, put a hold in the cap right behind the #1 post.  This way, After I verify my base timing is correct, I can swap the caps and then shine my timing light into the hold on the cap to see if the rotor will need to be phased at all.

Let me know what you guys think.  Thanks again.

[sixty9cobra]

When the weights expand from inertia it advances the timing not retards it. That's why its called centrifugal  advance. Just like vacuum advance.

[My427stang]

OK all.  I received the new distributor from MSD.  It was sent Pre-Locked out and with a new Steel distributor gear pressed on.  Before placing it back into the car, I installed the new MSD rotor which I am able to phase.  As per the instructions, I placed the rotor in the middle of the adjustment (meaning I can "advance" or "retard" the rotor tip- For lack of a better word since I understand that it has no control on the timing itself).  Then using my original marks and photos I took of the old one coming out, I tried installing it back in.  For the life of me, I could not get the rotor to line back up with the marks I made.  I tried slowly turning the oil pump shaft with the tool I have.....  no luck.  This went on for about an hour.  I must have adjusted and refit the distributor maybe 50 times.  Then it occurred to me that their might be slight differences in the new rotor that I am able to phase vs the fixed rotor that comes with the distributor(and what was on there before I took it out).   I could get very, very close, but not exact. 

My last 2 choices were being very close after the mark and having to "Retard' the rotor to get it to line up, or getting very close before the mark and "advancing" the rotor to get it to line up with the mark.

I chose getting it very close BEFORE the mark and then advancing the adjustable rotor to get it to line up with the mark.  My thought process on this was such:

When the distributor is running off of springs and weights, as you increase RPM's, the inertia from the spinning distributor retards the rotor (I think).  I thought that since the distributor is now locked out and in addition, the EFI will now be controlling spark, there will be a delay in the spark (since it has to go from the MSD ignition box to the ECU and then to the distributor (Rather than straight from the Ignition box to the distributor).  I thought that if anything, when I look to see if the rotor will need to be phased, it will most likely need to be "retarded" a little to ensure the spark is firing pretty close to the tab on the distributor cap.  The way I have it now, I will have plenty of adjustment if the cap needs to be retarded a little, but none of the rotor will need to be advanced (which I doubt if I am thinking about this correctly).  Thoughts??

Also, I took the old distributor cap and using a step drill but, put a hold in the cap right behind the #1 post.  This way, After I verify my base timing is correct, I can swap the caps and then shine my timing light into the hold on the cap to see if the rotor will need to be phased at all.

Let me know what you guys think.  Thanks again.

Your spark is going to swing nearly 50 degrees and certainly 40 on a regular basis, there is no one perfect place for the rotor with that much change and you do not have to mechanically compensate for the speed of electricity.  It'll be fine, phase it based on your EFIs instructions and go.

[cobracammer]

Thanks.  All hooked up and just have a few questions about timing control in to the FiTech techs.  Then it will be time to give the new EFI system a "whirl"

Thanks again

[cobracammer]

OK here is a question I came up with because the FiTech Manual does not go into specifics with regards to timing control.  This is the timing control screen that need inputs:


Distrib Base deg =

VR Advance 4000 =

Idle Advance =

1100 45kPa =

3000 45kPa Cruise =

6000 45kPa =

WOT 1100 95kPa =

WOT 3000 95kPa =

WOT 6000 95kPa =

Boost 1100 180kPa =

Boost 3000 180kPa =

Boost 6000 180 kPa =

From running the car earlier without timing control (with the combination of Black stop bushing, 1 light blue spring and 1 light silver spring), I know this timing curve was working ok.




So question is, how would "one" go about filling in this screen?  LOL  Also, should the Boost values be left blank (perhaps obvious if I am not running boost?).  What are your thoughts?

[cobracammer]

OK, FiTech got back to me with the following timing inputs.  Can anyone explain why the Distributor base timing is 10 degrees?  I don't understand why its not 12 degrees.....  and with that said, why the Idle advance is 12 degrees (and the difference in this vs the Distributor Base timing?):

Distrib Base deg =   10 Degrees  (I still do not understand why this is 10 degrees and not 12 degrees?)

VR Advance 4000 = Leave this alone (Upon further reading, this is something you would do to account for chain stretch at 4000 RPM)

Idle Advance =  12 Degrees

1100 45kPa =  25 Degrees

3000 45kPa Cruise = 30 Degrees

6000 45kPa = 30 Degrees

WOT 1100 95kPa = 25 Degrees

WOT 3000 95kPa = 30 Degrees

WOT 6000 95kPa =  30 Degrees

Boost 1100 180kPa =  Leave this alone

Boost 3000 180kPa =  Leave this alone

Boost 6000 180 kPa =  Leave this alone

[jayb]

How does FiTech define "Distributor Base Timing"?

[My427stang]

Agree with Jay, need their definition.  Often EFI systems use a base for other things, like an injector reference.  However, you would think it would match your initial.  Also, TBs don't need a reference because they don't care what the valve is doing at idle, unlike a SEFI port injection

One possibility is that the tech assumes you'll be at 10 degrees initial at crank for rotor alignment, and then it goes immediately to 22 (adds idle advance)  However, it seems odd to me because then cruise would be a little low at 30 (40 total)

Do you have access to a manual on line we can look at?

BTW, if it does immediately add advance when it fires, nothing wrong with pulling back initial, easier on the starter, battery and wires (admittedly not by much, but a little, especially hot)

[cobracammer]

SPARK MAP: The spark advance uses a 3x3 matrix table to allow flexible spark advance control. This can allow distributor simulation, locked timing, boost retards, high RPM advancing and other strategies to optimize the ignition spark advance angle. The distributor must be locked out. Spark advance during cranking will happen at or after the VR tooth crosses the sensor. Above cranking, spark advance will only be equal to or more than the base advance, regardless of the value entered in the handheld for timing.

Distrib Base deg = Adjust this to get the timing light timing to match the displayed Spark Advance at low RPM. It’s recommended to set this as high as possible, because the amount of advance range from min to max is limited due to the rotor and cap being in a fixed relationship.

VR Advance 4000 = Adjust this to get the timing light timing to match the displayed Spark Advance at 4000 RPM. This is adjustment for the small lag inherent in VR signals. It can add up at high RPM.

Idle Advance = The spark advance desired at idle.

1100 45kPa = Spark advance used just after throttle opens from idle. This value shouldn’t be much more than the Idle Advance, for this reason.

3000 45kPa Cruise = Spark Advance used in a light cruise at 3000 RPM and throttle barely open.

6000 45kPa = Spark Advance used in a high free-rev condition, perhaps also seen when autocrossing and just tipping-in in a low gear at high RPM.

WOT 1100 95kPa = Spark Advance at low RPM and “full load” – perhaps the throttle is as low as 20% to see this much load. Spark is based on MAP, and MAP (and thus “load”) can get pretty high even with low throttle openings at low RPMs.

WOT 3000 95kPa = Spark Advance at high loads and 3000 RPM. This could easily be deemed “total” timing when comparing to a distributor, but due to the flexibility of a 3x3 matrix, this doesn’t limit you as such. Handheld Controller Feature Definitions 4

WOT 6000 95kPa = Spark Advance at high loads and 6000 RPM. At high RPM, some engines require more or less spark advance than at 3000 RPM. This allows you to set the timing there.

Boost 1100 180kPa = This is full throttle but with a supercharger or turbocharger boosting to about 11.6 psi. If no intercooler is used, the engine may require very little spark advance. Remember that timing less than the base advance “Distr Base Deg” is not allowed, so choose the base timing carefully.

Boost 3000 180kPa = This is full throttle but with a supercharger or turbocharger boosting to about 11.6 psi. If no intercooler is used, the engine may require very little spark advance. Remember that timing less than the base advance “Distr Base Deg” is not allowed, so choose the base timing carefully.

Boost 6000 180kPa = This is full throttle but with a supercharger or turbocharger boosting to about 11.6 psi. If no intercooler is used, the engine may require very little spark advance. Remember that timing less than the base advance “Distr Base Deg” is not allowed, so choose the base timing carefully.

[cobracammer]

Agree with Jay, need their definition.  Often EFI systems use a base for other things, like an injector reference.  However, you would think it would match your initial.  Also, TBs don't need a reference because they don't care what the valve is doing at idle, unlike a SEFI port injection

One possibility is that the tech assumes you'll be at 10 degrees initial at crank for rotor alignment, and then it goes immediately to 22 (adds idle advance)  However, it seems odd to me because then cruise would be a little low at 30 (40 total)

Do you have access to a manual on line we can look at?

BTW, if it does immediately add advance when it fires, nothing wrong with pulling back initial, easier on the starter, battery and wires (admittedly not by much, but a little, especially hot)

Hey Ross,

Tell me if this sounds correct.  As set up as the tech suggested, I would be "Cranking" at 10 degrees to make it light off easier?  Then as soon as the engine is running, I am at the value input on the "Idle Advance" = 12 degrees (this is where I should be at idle).  I think the way it looks when I am inputting the values is that my base timing will be 10 degrees, but then I will add the idle advance to it (an additional 12 degrees).  which is wayyy to much.  I think the idle advance value is a value and not an amount that it will advance on top of the base timing (timing while cranking).  so really it only adding 2 degrees (to get to 12) and not adding 12.

Or....  perhaps I am missing the mark again  LOL  :0)

[cobracammer]

http://fitechefi.com/fitech-uploads/2016/07/HandheldcontrollerfeatureDefinitions.pdf

This may help with definitions on the efi system

[cobracammer]

OK I spent my lunch today waiting to speak with a Fitech Tech.  They are super busy over there I think.  Anyway, I think I understand it.

So distributor base timing (and I think Ross had mentioned this) as per the tech, is just a value Fitech came up with....  He stated that it would have been better to call it "Cranking" in stead of base.  Fitech came up with a "range" of base timing (Crank timing) that they say you should use.  I believe it was something like between 10 - 13 (it may be a little higher than 13 so don't quote me).

The Idle advance setting is really what you want the engine to idle at.  Its not an advance number however....  Its not like you have 10 degrees as the base and then put 2 degrees in the idle advance to get the timing to 12 degrees.  If you want the engine to idle at 12 degrees (like I do), then 12 degrees goes in Idle Advance.

Now for the difference.....  The tech said that the EFI system automatically adjust the spark up and down a little to smooth out the idle.  Since 10 degrees is the lowest you can put in the Base timing field, and I need the engine to idle at 12 degrees (Idle advance), he said the computer will still try to smooth out the idle, but can only go down as low as 10 degrees (on a down swing).  He suggested upping my idle advance higher than 12 degrees if possible, but I am not sure if that is advisable. 

Also, because of FiTechs feature of "smoothing" out idle by adjusting the spark, he suggested I check the timing again at 2000 RPM.  He said at 2000 RPM, the number on the handheld screen should match the timing light. 

I think I understand now, its just the labels for the inputs were a tad confusing. 

[jayb]

I found them confusing too.  Since your distributor is now locked, you should be able to increase the idle advance and not exceed 30 degrees total timing.  Try running it up to 16-18 at idle, that should help the idle quality.