Author Topic: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!  (Read 775917 times)

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My427stang

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1725 on: October 03, 2016, 01:57:06 PM »
Ok, so you can pick any variable and change it, but you can't change all and get anywhere

The stumple and pop when you drop the hammer sounds like accel fuel AND you know you have accel fuel at a negative, so it makes sense.

However, I'd do the cruise first at 13.5, see how it does, then do the accel, if you do the accel fuel first, it may go real lean on you at cruise.

Don't overthink this one.  Get on the road and see.  If the mixture doesn't change anything though, be ready to look at the ignition

BTW, are you running vacuum advance?  If so is it manifold vacuum and are you able to set your initial timing with a light?
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

My427stang

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1726 on: October 03, 2016, 04:15:53 PM »
I thought about this a bit on the drive back to work.

I look at the task as this....let the car talk to you.

1. Cruise at a steady speed where it bucks or surges, make sure you can recreate it at will.  Then try going slightly richer (lower number)  If it works, go slightly leaner until it starts again, then go back a smidge.  Ignore the acceleration until you get that squared away

2.  Now that cruise is good, set Accel fuel to zero, see if it gets better.  If it needs more, go more, but always shoot for the least amount of fuel you can solve the problem with

3. Then work cold start if required

If nothing you do fixes the surge and buck, then likely it is not mixture related

---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

newfalconowner

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1727 on: October 03, 2016, 05:55:56 PM »
just checking TPS settings for my throttle body, and found the TPS voltage setting should be .54volts with key on, car not running.. whats yours set at? I haven't checked mine yet, I will tomorrow evening.

My427stang

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1728 on: October 03, 2016, 06:52:50 PM »
just checking TPS settings for my throttle body, and found the TPS voltage setting should be .54volts with key on, car not running.. whats yours set at? I haven't checked mine yet, I will tomorrow evening.

I think the FAST system compensates for that. That's why you do a calibration as part of setup to indicate idle throttle position and WOT.  You are correct that a factory system is usually around .5 V when at idle, but they don't have the same kind of programming
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

newfalconowner

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1729 on: October 04, 2016, 03:33:28 AM »
ok,, just trying to figure my idle quality and thought that would be why it seeked  up and down some.

My427stang

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1730 on: October 04, 2016, 05:46:08 AM »
What does yours use for an IAC and how did you adjust it?

If I had a hunting idle, with a system that didn't adjust timing, I would first make sure timing was set correctly with a light.  Then I would warm it up, disable the IAC and set the mechanical idle stop to just where it barely runs, the lowest idle that still can stay running on it's own, then I would recalibrate the TPS, and enable the IAC
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

cobracammer

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1731 on: October 04, 2016, 01:11:03 PM »
Hi Ross.  This EFI "business" is all kinds of interesting.  I will be doing we se said this weekend, but just want to throw out some info on my car as well as what I have been reading>

OK so I seem to have a Cam with a large amount of overlap (Large being relative I guess).  When I tried to calculate overlap, I think I cam in somewhere in the 60 degree range or so.  Also, to answer a previous question, I do not have vacuum advance and I am not able to adjust the timing with the ECU.  :0)

Reading online, the effects of a cam with large overlap would be felt most at idle.  At idle, more un-burnt fuel is getting out of the combustion chamber before the burn is complete due to the exhaust valve opening sooner.  This will show as a "Rich" mixture by the O2 sensor.  ( I know this has some affect on the idle stumbling while the engine is still cold since the FAST efi does not go into learning mode(Closed loop?) until it reaches operating temps.  As soon as the learning light comes on, the EFI works its magic and the car starts to idle perfectly at 950-1000 RPMs.

I also read that the effects of a cam with larger overlap will be lessened at mid-range RPM and Higher.  This is due to the un-burnt fuel having less time to escape between firing.  This allows the A/F reading on the system to be more accurate as to where your AF ratio actually is.

Just thinking about my issues, the car at midrange and WOT seems to want more fuel (which we will eventually test and get to). 

I guess what I would like to know more about is what is happening during the cold start and what happens differently as soon as the EFI goes into learning mode at operating temps?


At cold start, the engine starts off right at 1000 rpms, but then within 30 seconds or so, the RPM's start to drop and the car shutters shakes.  RPM's drop to 550-600 RPM's.  Also some smoke comes from the tailpipe (unburnt fuel? )  If you do not touch the accelerator at all, it could shutter and shake at 500-600 PRM;'s for a bit as the car tries to stay running, but will then stall.

If you stay on the gas just a tiny bit, it still runs a bit rough, but keeping the RPMs at about 1000 .... it warms up in about 2 to 3 minutes.  As soon as it warms to operating temp, the learning light comes on - on the handheld and the computer automatically corrects and the car idles beautifully and stays there.  It searches a little for the right mix, but then the IAC ends up around mid 20's, A/F stays on target (Currently 13.5) and just works perfectly.

I read on the instructions for the new computer handheld, that any changes to "cold start fuel" will only apply to the engine while its cold.  As soon as the car reaches temp, the computer shuts off the changes made with the  "Cold Start fuel enrichment feature".

Since the car idles perfectly when warm, The cold idle will be the last thing I work on, but I am super curious whats going on before the EFi goes into learning mode (and what a cam with large overlap has to do with it).

Super interesting  :0)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 01:24:44 PM by cobracammer »
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

My427stang

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1732 on: October 05, 2016, 06:08:04 AM »
Think of overlap at low speeds, especially idle, creating a diluted mixture, additionally, think about the big ports of a SOHC having an issue to carry a charge to the chamber at low speeds, creating a lean mixture, Lean likes more timing dilution is fixed for the most part, but changes with RPM. 
The O2 sensor sees raw fuel that is passing through when the intake and exhaust are open.

So, the computer thinks the engine is rich, and corrects, but the engine is actually asking for more fuel.  So the first thing with a lot of overlap is to treat what the chamber sees with timing.  Now, I am not a SOHC guy, and they will be a bit different based on what the valve does with a certain amount of overlap compared to a wedge, but I would run as much initial timing as the starter likes during hot start, and curve the distributor for desired fuel (rate) and peak power (total) from your dyno runs.  Having as much initial and as flat of a curve as you can offsets the diluted mixture down low

Now, for the idle a/f mixture, some computers can go into open loop at idle (or even during hard acceleration) even when hot.  That's how the advanced systems do it to compensate for big overlap cams.  Mine, I can trigger open loop whenever I want.  What open loop does is just essentially make it an electronic carb, commanding fuel at a predetermiend rate, with minimal or no input from the sensors.  Idling in open command a richer O2 value, knowing that it may idle a little smelly out of the pipe, but what the chamber sees is what it likes, not what the O2 sensor says.

So now, mid range and accel seems to want more fuel too as you stated  Yes I think so.  However, use the actual terms your controller uses.  Cruise, Accel, and whatever else you have, that way we can be sure to say what to change and say the same thing every time.

So cruise RPM you have lower RPMs but not as low as idle, so less dilution, AND you have less load on the motor, so you can accept leaner.  Right now you have bucking at that RPM, so you likely need to go richer. As I said earlier, fix that first, BUT, like all the thinking/understanding you are doing is good, BETTER will be listening to the engine and let it tell you what it wants then testing your change.  Logic may or may not work here.  Change one variable, see if it fixes what you are fighting then make another decision.  The fact that the controller commands 14.0 at cruise (pretty lean) AND you are getting lean behavior AND you know you have a decent cam with some overlap AND potentially pump gas could have alcohol in it all leads me to think you need to richen the commanded cruise a/f ratio.

So, if you consider cruise to be the easily replicated that covers the widest operating range and it's an easily tested scenario, do that first.

Now the Accel fuel, drop the hammer the "lean goes leaner" and backfires.  Very understandable AND you are in the negative on the controller AND you have overlap and big ports which can slow the mixture down allwing fuel to come out of suspension, so it all makes sense.  Next you sneak up on that.

So, in theory, at this point, you have it running great hot and what happens in cold start?  The computer uses an open loop enrichment program to get the engine warmed up, like a choke.  The computer just tells the injectors to do a certain thing and pretty much ignores most of the other sensor inputs.  It HAS to be cold, the ECM will have a fail safe to require a certain temp to do it, so only can be changed once a day likely when the engine is cold.  Usually cold start has a couple options idle speed,and idle mixture.  Idle speed is easy, just bump it up if controllable.  If normally idling at 1000, put it at 1250 or 1400 when cold.  If you can't adjust, it'll have some sort of standard RPM additive amount on its own, so don't worry about it

Next, because the big ports and overlap already create a DILUTED mixture, now let's add that cold fuel doesn't like to atomize when cold and the entire engine has no heat.  So, you richen to compensate.  Same deal as before, try something, see what happens, tweak the next time.  Once it warms up it will go into closed loop (what most of these systems call learning mode because it tweaks the tables while it gets inputs).  However, this is not BECAUSE of overlap, it's just the cold fuel coming out of suspension adding to the issue of dilution.  In other words, the chamber is diluted already because of overlap and intake/head design and the cold situation adds to the issue with a LEAN condition.

If that last sentence is confusing.  Dilution = exhaust in the chamber taking up space without fuel or oxygen   LEAN = Not enough fuel for the available oxygen, in this case due to cold temps

So

Timing if you can
Cruise 2nd
Accel 3rd (However see my last line)
Cold start 4th over time

If you have other options, let me know, but let the car talk to you, and go one step at a tile

Last comment, One thing I would do if was mine is put Accel to zero right away, however I know that goes against how I am telling you to tune.  You dont HAVE to, but my hunch is that it will make the car easier to drive and then you can go back to it for tweaking.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2016, 06:16:22 AM by My427stang »
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

cobracammer

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1733 on: October 05, 2016, 07:53:23 AM »
Thanks Ross.  For the timing part, Jay set that up when he did the Dyno runs.  I will seek his jusgement on the timing issue.

2nd, thank you again for explaining.  I think what was throwing me for a loop (no pun intended) is the fact that at cold start, when the engine is stuttering and bucking around 550-600 RPM, there is smoke coming from the tailpipe).  Due to the smell, I was thinking that there was too much fuel (and not a lean condition).  Again, once the car hits operating temp, the smoke is completely gone! and then the car idles perfectly and rev's beautifully (Revving in idle after warmed up- It does NOT miss or pop at all).  The smoke was confusing because I would have thought that it was running too Rich and thus wanted a leaner mixture.  LOL
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

My427stang

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1734 on: October 05, 2016, 10:20:54 AM »
I won't speak for Jay, because I know he is very knowledgeable, but total timing is generally the focus on a dyno based on power.  The reason is, the mechanical curve is fully in at the lowest RPM a dyno measures, so the curve is less important.

On the street, different.  For example, if you graph a straight line from 16 to 38 with 16 being at idle RPM and 38 based on peak power, for example, all in by 2800, then draw the same line from 22 at idle to 38 by 2800, you see the line is flatter, and at low RPM you have more advance to offset the diluted mixture/lean condition.

That doesn't even touch advance stuff like 2 stage advance like guys like Faron does, but that is yet another form of street tuning that will show ZERO on a dyno.

I'd be interested in 2 things

1 - Max advance the starter can handle
2 - If Jay though having more initial would ping at part throttle
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

My427stang

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1735 on: October 05, 2016, 10:23:39 AM »
BTW, my 489 has timing control, so I know it is apples and oranges, but.  I fire the engine at the computer takes it to 20 BTDC, total is 38 all in by 2600, but it has a bunch of corrections/adjustments based on temp, load, etc.  In the end though, although mine cranks at 10 BTDC, it immediately goes to 20 once it lights off
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

jayb

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1736 on: October 05, 2016, 10:41:05 AM »
Ross is correct Jason, on the dyno pulls the timing was all in by the time the pull started.  I just ran the distributor you sent, and didn't make any timing adjustments except total.  I used 30 degrees total advance during the dyno testing, which is about all you want to run with an SOHC.

One other comment is that the kind of problems you are experiencing are fairly common with these self-learning EFI systems, at least based on the few people I know who have run them.  I wish I would have talked you into a direct port EFI system, like a FAST XFI or a Megasquirt.  You have so much more control with a system like that.  Your engine is far enough away from a typical street performance engine that I think you might be fighting these tuning issues for a while.  The direct port EFI system would have been quite a bit more expensive, but I think the tuning issues may have been behind you by now with one of those...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

My427stang

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1737 on: October 05, 2016, 10:47:24 AM »
Good info

I think you need to see what initial is set to.  Now you know where the advance needs to be at full throttle, so you change bushings in an MSD, or adjust stops in a Mallory to have the right initial to make the total.

My hunch, 18-20 initial if the starter and battery can handle it, then limit mechanical to reach 30, likely do wonders depending where it is now.

Keep in mind, if it is fresh out of the box, you could be at 30 - 20 = 10 initial, which would be absolutely miserable with big ports and a relatively big cam.  Not to mention, if out of the box it's likely very slow too
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

cobracammer

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1738 on: October 05, 2016, 12:27:50 PM »
The MSD Distributor I have (set it up before sending to Jay) has 1 light Silver spring and 1 light blue spring.  this gives us the curve in the graph below on the right side, second one down.  Looks like total timing in all at 30 degrees at 3200 RPM?  Not sure what the initial timing is.  I can just put the timing light on it at Idle and find out.  Thanks Guys.  Ill let you know.  Sad we went from possibly just tweaking the target AF ratios to this.....  LOL


« Last Edit: October 05, 2016, 12:35:58 PM by cobracammer »
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

jayb

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1739 on: October 05, 2016, 01:25:50 PM »
I can't remember what you've got in the distributor, but use the black bushing, if you are not using it already.  This will let you run the maximum initial advance, and all the advance will be in by 2000 RPM.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC