Broader C6 Oil Mods?

[galaxiex]

That's definitely worn! I am ordering the Sonnax boost as along with Summit pan, and TCI bellhousing mount dipstick tube.


I have a G servo currently. I think I found a D servo, but holding out for an H. The guy with the D servo offered the following info for some reason:

"Plug the return for the servo and remove the inner seal"


Jim formerly of JPT said that the CJ gov. would work nicely with a standard ratio too, but he also offered the following which went way over my head:

"The chicken valve body is good just as it is. The governor can be modified by lightning of the valve.

On the JC valve body. Just clean. And make sure all valves are free. The separator plate is best. Don’t put a shift kit in it.  You can put a block in the accumulator piston it’s the big one under the long plate. It will have a spring in it. Just make a stop out of a piece of tubing.

Don’t do any shift kit to this valve body it has great calibration. Just use lighter valve in the governor."

Are these valve body kits not designed for the early clicker style VB's? Now I'm not sure what to do, all over again.

Try the G servo, it will probably shift fine, and it wont hurt anything.
If you want firmer shifts after trying it, it's easy to change the servo later.

I would NOT do the "Plug the return for the servo and remove the inner seal" for reasons too long to type here...
I can give a link later for those reasons, if you want to do some in-depth reading on the whys and wherefores.

.... or just google "pin bias effect".

Any year C6 valve body, clicker or not, will work with any C6 shift kit.

Exception...

1966 one year only C6 valve body, also known as the "Green Dot" V/B, or "Dual Range" V/B.
1966 V/B gasket is different (hard to find) and the manual valve is also different.

1966 Range selector is.... P R N D2 D1 L  with a large green dot at the D1 range.

D1 range starts in 1 and shifts automatically 1-2-3.
D2 range starts in 2nd gear and shifts to 3rd. No first gear start. thus...
 
"Dual Range" two different forward ranges.

as opposed to 67 up P R N D 2 1 "Select Shift" V/B.

hth

[galaxiex]

What the heck.... here is a vid that explains the "pin bias effect".

Note that by doing the "Plug the return for the servo and remove the inner seal" mod...

You are effectively making the C6 servo a Powerglide servo older design.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cx01xQ8PuuA&ab_channel=Sonnax

[galaxiex]

Here is the Sonnax "pin bias effect" explained in 2 articles.


https://www.sonnax.com/tech_resources/83-understanding-overcoming-the-powerglide-servo-pin-bias-effect-part-1


https://www.sonnax.com/tech_resources/603-understanding-overcoming-the-powerglide-servo-pin-bias-effect-part-2


Again,  I must reiterate the "Plug the return for the servo and remove the inner seal" modification is NOT something I would do.

It basically turns your modern C6 servo into an older design Powerglide servo, that does not operate efficiently like it was designed to.

[Jackal]

Very informative sir, appreciate it. I was super skeptical of this one, but I don't know what to think about the shift kit. I suppose I'll follow Jay's advice and run the truck calibration or stage 4. I think I'll also get this CJ/SCJ gov. bought for $70.

I see a D and a G aren't that different, so that is sounds advice while I search for another needle in this hay stack...lol. I really appreciate ya'll taking the time to help me wrap this up. There seem to be so many recipes out there for the C6 still after all these decades.

P.S. Jim is now also telling me that I don't need the Sonnax boost valve...lol. Will order anyway.

[galaxiex]

........................

P.S. Jim is now also telling me that I don't need the Sonnax boost valve...lol. Will order anyway.

Well.... not to be an A-hole about it.... but I would invite Jim, or anyone else that thinks you don't need to replace worn boost valves ...

... to watch this 3 part video series by Sonnax on vacuum testing worn valvebodys.


https://www.sonnax.com/tech_resources/536-what-is-vacuum-testing-video-part-1-of-3


... not that I'm some Sonnax fan boy... but they have excellent tech resources, all for free,
and they "really do" know transmissions.


Of course it's geared towards later model new electronic units, but the same basics apply to older hydraulic units.
Electronic or not, auto trannys all still use hydraulic circuits that must have good "hydraulic integrity" for the trans to function properly.


The boost valve has a "critical function" in controlling and having proper pressures under all the different trans operating conditions.


Even modern electronic transmissions still have boost valves, sometimes multiple ones for different functions.


They are ALL critical.

[galaxiex]

Here's a quote from Sonnax on a worn C6 clicker type boost valve... High lite mine.

When rebuilding high performance or heavy-duty Ford C6 transmissions, it is common to find a worn boost sleeve in the clicker-style valve body. This wear causes poor line rise, which results in erratic shift timing, Reverse shudder or direct clutch failure. This can be caused by the reciprocating boost valve wearing the inside diameter of the boost sleeve. When this occurs, oil that enters the modulated line pressure orifice leaks past the boost valve and exhausts through the Reverse orifice, resulting in poor or no line rise. The outside diameter of the boost sleeve may allow some leakage through the valve body, which can result in insufficient line rise.


Look again at the pic I posted above of the worn boost valve,
and I challenge anyone to say that was NOT the reason this unit came to me with completely fried high clutch, band, and low/reverse clutch.


This unit HAD an "overhaul" not too long ago by another shop, and yet... here it is again all burnt up.

[Jackal]

I'm certainly convinced...lol, I'm sure that's frustrating. I got it on the way from Jegs and a TCI pan and stick tube from Summit since the Summit pan was backordered 2 mo.

Now to choose between a 428 PI and a 429 CJ/SCJ gov. and I should be set.
UPDATE: It sounds like the PI config was setup for lower RPM shifting so probably why people seem to favor the CJ gov.
UPDATE2: Went ahead and ordered the NOS CJ/SCJ unit. (C7AZ-7C063-A) 1967 though? I'd expect it to be a C9 or D0 part, but I can't seem to find anything. The seller claims they confirmed via the "Ford MPC" w/e that is.

Good news about the oil mods too. A guy named Greg has his old info from previous kit purchases that he is going to provide back to Jay @ Broader so I should be able to get my hands on that too.

[Jackal]

STUPID QUESTION ALERT

I'm trying to print off a template for my builder and have questions that may not have answers.

I ASSume that the position of the center punch is 1.17" - 1.18" to the left of center of the shaft hole, and is that .31" - .33" down from the center line? The .31/.33 reference is really confusing here. Also, the center punch mark appears to be off-center from the indicated hole... If I print this off to match the 1.17/1.18" scale, the .31/.33 reference and 1/4" hole don't workout and I end up with about a 3.5" diameter template, probably not all that much larger than it appears on your monitor.

[thatdarncat]

STUPID QUESTION ALERT

I'm trying to print off a template for my builder and have questions that may not have answers.

I ASSume that the position of the center punch is 1.17" - 1.18" to the left of center of the shaft hole, and is that .31" - .33" down from the center line? The .31/.33 reference is really confusing here. Also, the center punch mark appears to be off-center from the indicated hole... If I print this off to match the 1.17/1.18" scale, the .31/.33 reference and 1/4" hole don't workout and I end up with about a 3.5" diameter template, probably not all that much larger than it appears on your monitor.

I’d have to see if I have the original template that came in the Ford kit put away, and see if the drawing exactly matches the measurements. Years ago I made a bunch of copies for people, my copy that is handy is printed on a standard letter size piece of paper. Just doing a quick measurement with a ruler it looks like it’s upscale a little bit. The size of the race boss on the template should match the race boss on the back of the case. And I don’t have a bare C6 case in front of me to check, but I’ll say I’ve done a bunch of these and I don’t even measure any more - if you look on the back of the C6 case you’ll see the casting bulge where the fluid return passage is, and where it is on the other side of that pocket. I just verify it’s there and there isn’t some bizarre casting shift and you should be ok. I realize you probably don’t have the transmission in front of you, and are just trying to provide the exact info for the builder ( and so he can’t blame you if he screws it up ), but what you’re trying to do should be pretty self explanatory for them. What is going to happen in use is that “pocket” is going to fill with fluid and then move into the passage in the race, it’s not critical that the case hole lines up exactly with the fluid passage hole in the race.  I wouldn’t read too much into the centerpunch mark being off center of the hole, it’s possible Ford didn’t assign their most senior draftsman to this instruction sheet project. But yes, I know exactly what happens when you “ass-u-me” lol. I might be able to grab a picture off a bare C6 case later this afternoon.

[gt350hr]

     IIRC Ford incorporated this change into later transmissions.

[thatdarncat]

     IIRC Ford incorporated this change into later transmissions.

Yes, probably started sometime in the 1969 model year I’m guessing, since the kit was released in ‘69. However my 1969 Thunderbird, which was built earlier in the model year, did not have the pressure lubricated race, so it’s always a good thing to check on any earlier C6.

Jackal said in the original post that he has a 1967 C6, so if someone hasn’t modified it already it will also be splash oiled.

[thatdarncat]

Here’s a picture of the back of a FE C6 case. I didn’t get a chance to dig it out from the shelf today to check measurements, maybe tomorrow. But here’s a couple pictures to illustrate. The fluid passage you are drilling into to intersect is this one that the return cooler line attaches to. You can see it is raised on the casting. It’s runs pretty much straight across, then you can see it has an intersecting passage to change the angle. It exits at this hole in between the two output shaft bushings. Where you are drilling inside that pocket in the race boss of the case will intersect the inner part of the passage allowing some of the pressurized fluid to run through the small lube hole that is in the new style race.

[galaxiex]

This is looking down inside the C6 case.

Here I'm shining a light from the left into the cooler passage from outside the case.


That is a piece of welding rod in the passage.


The vertical hole is the one you want to drill.


It's very easy to do, just get the hole in the correct passage, and don't drill thru the back of the case.


Really, you can easily do this without the template. I've done it by "eye" many times.

Note; there are no bushings installed in this case.
It's a spare case I have laying around...


With the pics and info from thatdarncat in his post above, I hope you can see how simple this is.


Edit; even if you get the drilled hole "off" a little, it won't matter, as long as it goes into the existing cooler passage in the case.
It's not a super precise thing.

[galaxiex]

Here's a close-up of the hole.


"more or less" centered side to side in the oval part, and slightly down from center, top to bottom.

[Jackal]

Killer pics and info! I wasn't sure if there was a bulge in the casting for him to go by or not. This helps a ton. Just a note that the Broader instructions spec a 1/8" hole vs. factory 1/4". Interesting.

I got an H servo from a super nice guy over on fordmuscle. Is it plenty safe to run it with the F levers? H apply is getting into R territory, but with way less release.