Broader C6 Oil Mods?

[Jackal]

Hello, I have a 1967 FGA B C6 at a reputable shop that has never rollerized one. Tomorrow, I am ordering a 500HP rebuild kit from Broader with w/e additional parts necessary to fully rollerize w/o machining, as well as a black-stripe modulator, R servo/cover, and E levers.

I think I'll go with the kevlar/carbon flex band vs. rigid band. Sticking with Select-Shift pattern auto with stage 2 or 3 shift kit probably. I am unsure on oil pan, but considering a zinc'd steel pan from TCI unless I need to go larger capacity for a street driven 63.5 Gal w/ 410/445. Planning on using my integrated oil cooler in my Champion radiator.

I see that about 6 years ago and earlier, Broader provided a detailed guide on how to perform various oil mods to complement their rebuild kit. They do not seem to offer this any longer. I am curious as to why this might be and if there is any other source for this information or at least general oiling mods that aren't proprietary to Broader. I don't mind paying for the info. Thanks!

[galaxiex]

Shift kit nomenclature.

In Trans-Go speak, a "stage 2" kit is for performance street/strip use.
The "Stage 3" kit is for Race car full manual shift, NO automatic up shifts,
tho some Stage 3 kits can be changed back to auto shifts.

I got a Summit cast aluminum deep pan "No Logo" for my C6.
Really nice pan. I'm very pleased with it.
It comes with a filter, and filter extension, to accommodate the deep pan.
Basically a stock Ford truck 4X4 filter and extension, as those trucks had a deep steel pan from factory.

The most common oiling system mod for the C6, is removing the cooler check ball and spring from the stator.
It is a MAJOR restriction to cooler flow and converter charge.
The only downside is possible overnight converter "drainback" and a delayed engagement on cold start/trans engagement.
Not an issue if you let it idle/warm up a bit before putting the trans into gear.

[thatdarncat]

The early ‘66-‘69 C6 transmissions used splash oiling for the one way clutch (sprag) in the rear of the case, failure of the one way clutch due to lack of lubrication is common. Ford realized this and in ‘69 came out with a kit to address the issue, and made the change at some point around that time for production, to pressure lubrication for the one way clutch. The Ford kit basically included a new one way clutch race with a pressure lubrication hole that sprays onto the one way clutch rollers, and instructions on where to drill a small hole in the back of the case that intersects the cooler return passage, and provides pressurized fluid. The Ford kit is long obsolete, but it doesn’t really matter, the new replacement one way clutch races come with the small oiling hole in them. Many C6 full roller kits, or roller #9 thrust washer kits come with a new slightly thinner race, since the roller thrust washer is thicker than the original flat #9 thrust washer, and the new race will also have the oiling hole. So the only thing you have to do is drill the hole in the rear of the case to provide the pressure lubrication. This should be done on any early C6, or checked to see if it was already done on a early C6 if it’s been previously rebuilt. Here are the Ford instructions and the provided template. You don’t really need the template, other than to get the idea where to drill. This is really easy to do, just be careful not to drill all the way through the rear of the oil passage & case!

[Jackal]

Thank You both!

[galaxiex]

Thank you @thatdarncat

I had forgot about the early C6's with the splash lube sprag.

Good call !

[Jackal]

Any valve body mods to be addressed?

[galaxiex]

Any valve body mods to be addressed?

Shift kit will take care of that.
I'd use the Trans-Go Stage 2 kit for performance use. 67-1&2 is their part number.
If not, then the Trans-Go SK-6 kit is good.

I would NOT use a B&M "shift kit". Very HARD shifts and the tranny won't last.

Closely inspect the Pressure Regulator boost valve sleeve for wear.
It doesn't come in the shift kit.
Sonnax has/had a replacement but I think it's discontinued.
Might find a vendor somewhere that still has stock.
Sonnax doesn't sell to the public.

1967 should have the "early type" boost valve and sleeve. Sometimes called the "clicker" type valve.
Sonnax part # 36941-01K

Later type is (obviously) different and I think, still available.
It does NOT retro-fit into the early valve body.

Edit;
Looks like Jegs has the boost valve.

https://www.jegs.com/i/Sonnax/852/36941-01K/10002/-1

Summit is out of stock.

[Jackal]

Thanks again. I had asked Broader about needing this part and they stated that I did not. I will hit him up about it again on the phone when they call back and get it coming if any question.

[Falcon67]

The oil mod is same/similar to what I do on performance C4s.  I drill both the #9 washer and the case to hit the rear return oil passage.  Pretty simple deal.

As for bands, etc - I'd use just what Broader recommends. 

[gt350hr]

      I too used the Summit no log cast aluminum pan. The kit is complete with everything you need and is very high quality. Works perfectly. Mine is a '78 with a wide ratio fully rollerized setup. R servo B lever Superior shift kit , CJ high drum and governor, Kevlar "strap" band that I built myself.

[Jackal]

Shift kit nomenclature.

In Trans-Go speak, a "stage 2" kit is for performance street/strip use.
The "Stage 3" kit is for Race car full manual shift, NO automatic up shifts,
tho some Stage 3 kits can be changed back to auto shifts.

I was making some assumptions based on some of Broader's product descriptions and the fact that his 750HP street C6 is available in stages 3-5.

"Stage 1 is a soft shift progressing to Stage 4. Stage 4 is a hard shift and is recommended for use with higher stall torque converters."

I'm beginning to question my decision to build one though since it's looking like I'll have more money tied up than if I had just ordered one from Broader for $1,900. It took a few years, $250, and more time than I'd like to admit cleaning up the donor.

[Jackal]

      I too used the Summit no log cast aluminum pan. The kit is complete with everything you need and is very high quality. Works perfectly. Mine is a '78 with a wide ratio fully rollerized setup. R servo B lever Superior shift kit , CJ high drum and governor, Kevlar "strap" band that I built myself.

Nice! Think I'll try this pan as well. Curious what dictates which levers to run with an R servo? Did you have to hunt down an OEM CJ governor or?

[galaxiex]

Shift kit nomenclature.

In Trans-Go speak, a "stage 2" kit is for performance street/strip use.
The "Stage 3" kit is for Race car full manual shift, NO automatic up shifts,
tho some Stage 3 kits can be changed back to auto shifts.

I was making some assumptions based on some of Broader's product descriptions and the fact that his 750HP street C6 is available in stages 3-5.

"Stage 1 is a soft shift progressing to Stage 4. Stage 4 is a hard shift and is recommended for use with higher stall torque converters."

I'm beginning to question my decision to build one though since it's looking like I'll have more money tied up than if I had just ordered one from Broader for $1,900. It took a few years, $250, and more time than I'd like to admit cleaning up the donor.

Ahh, I see, I'm not familiar with Broaders stuff, only know of him by reputation.

[galaxiex]

Thanks again. I had asked Broader about needing this part and they stated that I did not. I will hit him up about it again on the phone when they call back and get it coming if any question.

I work at a large driveline reman shop.
I'm just one of 14 builders there but I have been building transmissions for 45 years.

We "almost always" replace boost valves as it has become very common for them to be worn to the point of affecting trans operation.
In fact many other valves in valvebodys are worn as well, and require reaming and oversize valves.

It has pretty much become normal procedure if you want the trans to work properly and last past the warranty.

No diss on Broader, if he says you don't need it, but I'd be inspecting it very closely.

Sonnax website has a TON of information on vacuum testing for worn valves/valvebodys and other stuff.

Bit of a rabbit hole, but if you are interested in this stuff, it's actually fun to snoop around their site.

https://www.sonnax.com/vacuum_testing

C6 boost valve info...

https://www.sonnax.com/parts/2091-boost-valve-kit#needthisif

[galaxiex]

      I too used the Summit no log cast aluminum pan. The kit is complete with everything you need and is very high quality. Works perfectly. Mine is a '78 with a wide ratio fully rollerized setup. R servo B lever Superior shift kit , CJ high drum and governor, Kevlar "strap" band that I built myself.

Nice! Think I'll try this pan as well. Curious what dictates which levers to run with an R servo? Did you have to hunt down an OEM CJ governor or?

Here's a little chart I have posted other places...

C6 Servos and Apply Levers

O-Ring Type Servos

Code - Apply - Release
G        2.04     3.02
J         2.07     2.69
D        2.08     2.98
H        2.34     3.02
R        2.48     3.50

Molded Piston Type Servos

Code - Apply - Release
N        1.93     2.92
S        2.00     2.86
L        2.07     2.98
P        2.10     2.86

In Order from Softest to Firmest Apply

N        1.93     2.92 - Molded
S        2.00     2.86 - Molded
G        2.04     3.02 - O-Ring
J         2.07     2.69 - O-Ring
L         2.07     2.98 - Molded
D        2.08     2.98 - O-Ring
P         2.10     2.86 - Molded
H        2.34     3.02 - O-Ring
R        2.48     3.50 - O-Ring


SERVO LEVERS

A = 1.65:1
B = 1.73:1
D = 1.97:1
E = 1.85:1
H = 2.18:1
F = 2.30:1
FF = 2.82:1 (Sonnax, don’t use with H or R code servo, will break the case!)

A B D or E lever will be fine with the R servo.

BTW you can't use the R servo with an early case. the servo bore in the case is not machined to accept it.
Exception being the CJ C6 case starting in 1968.

All other "pedestrian" C6 cases from 1966 to 1971 will not accept the R servo without machining.

Here's the rub...

To machine an early case you need a special $$$ hollow cutter as the "tower" inside the servo bore gets in the way.

Here's a pic of an early case servo bore.
The step approx an inch down needs to be cut almost to the bottom to get the R servo in there.
It also needs a proper (smooth) surface finish as the R servo O-ring rides in that bore.

[Gregwill16]

Thanks for posting this on CJ C6's galaxiex. This should be a sticky post on all FE forums. I found out the hard way, this explains it all in full detail.

[galaxiex]

Very welcome.

Also, don't assume that a late(r) case will be machined for the R servo, always pull the servo and check.
If the step is there 1" down... well.... you know...

[Jackal]

Great info for sure, I'd ran across it several times in past searches. Broader's 750HP unit has: "F ratio servo lever and matching servo." I'll ask about this combo and fitment.

I'll also plan on the boost valve. Greatly appreciate your help.

[gt350hr]

      I too used the Summit no log cast aluminum pan. The kit is complete with everything you need and is very high quality. Works perfectly. Mine is a '78 with a wide ratio fully rollerized setup. R servo B lever Superior shift kit , CJ high drum and governor, Kevlar "strap" band that I built myself.

Nice! Think I'll try this pan as well. Curious what dictates which levers to run with an R servo? Did you have to hunt down an OEM CJ governor or?

          I kept the original lever so it wouldn't hit "too" hard but had firm apply. I bought the governor when I bought the low gear conversion so I wouldn't get "early shifts". The trans is for my '67 Ranchero with a 545" 460. 3,500 rpm convertor.
      Randy

[Jackal]

I got my parts ordered from Jay. He said that they lost their oil mod info about 1.5-2 years ago when a drive crashed. Does anyone still have this info to provide back to him by chance so that I (and others) can get my hands on it?

He suggested that I use the F levers and either roll with the servo I have in it, (G marked cover) or try either a D or a P piston. I see D is o-ring and P is molded. I assume H won't fit, like an R. I am not sure if the cover needs to match the piston or not. Could I get some advice here and maybe a source?

He said that in addition to the rebuild kit, to rollerize w/o machining, I would need a forward planet and bearing, and I forget the other part unfortunately, but all was under $600 shipped. He said this leaves a few thrust washers in place vs. FULL rollerizing, but he said they are more for clearancing and don't have much of any load on them to matter.

I will use the white-stripe modulator vs. the black since I have a screw-in type vs. push-in.

Should I buy an old CJ governor too? ...or remove the checkball, or try to have the gov. drilled out?

He also recommended the truck calibration shift kit, and if I wanted a little more, to then go to a stage 4 calibration.

[Stangman]

Curious to know how much horsepower you get out of rollerizing a c-6. I know a c-6 draws alot of power I would have to imagine it would draw alittle less.

[Jackal]

It seems like there might only be one statement on the entire interwebs that claims something like back down to about 30 HP loss, down from 55, IIRC.

[HarleyJack17]

That is what I recall from my researching was around 20 ish horsepower. If I recall correctly a C4 fully built was still better cost wise, and friction wise...not assuming fitting to an FE etc.
In members projects there is an build on an F100 drag truck close to the top.....the poster, sorry I am bad with names, did A LOT with his C6. Nice work, lightened components etc. He may have the answers on the oil mods as well. If you are looking to get the absolute most out of it, that may not hurt.

[Jackal]

Thank ya sir!

[Gregwill16]

The H servo should work in any FE C6 case, unlike the R servo.

[gt350hr]

   The #9 is the most important one to rollerize. The rest were just a part of the wide ratio kit. The CJ governor was jut because of the wide ratio kit. Not necessary with a standard ratio C6. A H servo with an F lever is a good shift.
  Randy

[Jackal]

Do I just need to keep an eye on ebay for an H servo & cover? Is there a spring required as well? I can't believe they aren't mass reproduced like GM Corvette servos are.

I found a 429 CJ/SCJ gov. body. Would I not want to pick it up to swap over to mine, or at least swap the secondary gov. piston as a performance mod even if for a standard ratio?

I think I'm getting #5, 7, 8, & 9.

Thx. for the info!

[galaxiex]

Almost any servo with the "F" lever will work well.
What servo do you have now?

Also... not to beat a dead horse too much... but...

Here's some pics of a "clicker type" early boost valve.
I just happen to be working on a C6 out of a 1971 LTD, 400 CID engine.
We have ordered a new sonnax boost valve for it, they still have them, but we had to fly it in, not here yet.
Here's the original boost valve.

[galaxiex]

Hopefully these pics show how worn this boost valve is...


Pic 003 I'm shining a light down thru the oil passage hole, and you can see how badly worn the bore is.
There should be almost no light visible around the valve spool.

[Jackal]

That's definitely worn! I am ordering the Sonnax boost as along with Summit pan, and TCI bellhousing mount dipstick tube.


I have a G servo currently. I think I found a D servo, but holding out for an H. The guy with the D servo offered the following info for some reason:

"Plug the return for the servo and remove the inner seal"


Jim formerly of JPT said that the CJ gov. would work nicely with a standard ratio too, but he also offered the following which went way over my head:

"The chicken valve body is good just as it is. The governor can be modified by lightning of the valve.

On the JC valve body. Just clean. And make sure all valves are free. The separator plate is best. Don’t put a shift kit in it.  You can put a block in the accumulator piston it’s the big one under the long plate. It will have a spring in it. Just make a stop out of a piece of tubing.

Don’t do any shift kit to this valve body it has great calibration. Just use lighter valve in the governor."

Are these valve body kits not designed for the early clicker style VB's? Now I'm not sure what to do, all over again.

[galaxiex]

That's definitely worn! I am ordering the Sonnax boost as along with Summit pan, and TCI bellhousing mount dipstick tube.


I have a G servo currently. I think I found a D servo, but holding out for an H. The guy with the D servo offered the following info for some reason:

"Plug the return for the servo and remove the inner seal"


Jim formerly of JPT said that the CJ gov. would work nicely with a standard ratio too, but he also offered the following which went way over my head:

"The chicken valve body is good just as it is. The governor can be modified by lightning of the valve.

On the JC valve body. Just clean. And make sure all valves are free. The separator plate is best. Don’t put a shift kit in it.  You can put a block in the accumulator piston it’s the big one under the long plate. It will have a spring in it. Just make a stop out of a piece of tubing.

Don’t do any shift kit to this valve body it has great calibration. Just use lighter valve in the governor."

Are these valve body kits not designed for the early clicker style VB's? Now I'm not sure what to do, all over again.

Try the G servo, it will probably shift fine, and it wont hurt anything.
If you want firmer shifts after trying it, it's easy to change the servo later.

I would NOT do the "Plug the return for the servo and remove the inner seal" for reasons too long to type here...
I can give a link later for those reasons, if you want to do some in-depth reading on the whys and wherefores.

.... or just google "pin bias effect".

Any year C6 valve body, clicker or not, will work with any C6 shift kit.

Exception...

1966 one year only C6 valve body, also known as the "Green Dot" V/B, or "Dual Range" V/B.
1966 V/B gasket is different (hard to find) and the manual valve is also different.

1966 Range selector is.... P R N D2 D1 L  with a large green dot at the D1 range.

D1 range starts in 1 and shifts automatically 1-2-3.
D2 range starts in 2nd gear and shifts to 3rd. No first gear start. thus...
 
"Dual Range" two different forward ranges.

as opposed to 67 up P R N D 2 1 "Select Shift" V/B.

hth

[galaxiex]

What the heck.... here is a vid that explains the "pin bias effect".

Note that by doing the "Plug the return for the servo and remove the inner seal" mod...

You are effectively making the C6 servo a Powerglide servo older design.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cx01xQ8PuuA&ab_channel=Sonnax

[galaxiex]

Here is the Sonnax "pin bias effect" explained in 2 articles.


https://www.sonnax.com/tech_resources/83-understanding-overcoming-the-powerglide-servo-pin-bias-effect-part-1


https://www.sonnax.com/tech_resources/603-understanding-overcoming-the-powerglide-servo-pin-bias-effect-part-2


Again,  I must reiterate the "Plug the return for the servo and remove the inner seal" modification is NOT something I would do.

It basically turns your modern C6 servo into an older design Powerglide servo, that does not operate efficiently like it was designed to.

[Jackal]

Very informative sir, appreciate it. I was super skeptical of this one, but I don't know what to think about the shift kit. I suppose I'll follow Jay's advice and run the truck calibration or stage 4. I think I'll also get this CJ/SCJ gov. bought for $70.

I see a D and a G aren't that different, so that is sounds advice while I search for another needle in this hay stack...lol. I really appreciate ya'll taking the time to help me wrap this up. There seem to be so many recipes out there for the C6 still after all these decades.

P.S. Jim is now also telling me that I don't need the Sonnax boost valve...lol. Will order anyway.

[galaxiex]

........................

P.S. Jim is now also telling me that I don't need the Sonnax boost valve...lol. Will order anyway.

Well.... not to be an A-hole about it.... but I would invite Jim, or anyone else that thinks you don't need to replace worn boost valves ...

... to watch this 3 part video series by Sonnax on vacuum testing worn valvebodys.


https://www.sonnax.com/tech_resources/536-what-is-vacuum-testing-video-part-1-of-3


... not that I'm some Sonnax fan boy... but they have excellent tech resources, all for free,
and they "really do" know transmissions.


Of course it's geared towards later model new electronic units, but the same basics apply to older hydraulic units.
Electronic or not, auto trannys all still use hydraulic circuits that must have good "hydraulic integrity" for the trans to function properly.


The boost valve has a "critical function" in controlling and having proper pressures under all the different trans operating conditions.


Even modern electronic transmissions still have boost valves, sometimes multiple ones for different functions.


They are ALL critical.

[galaxiex]

Here's a quote from Sonnax on a worn C6 clicker type boost valve... High lite mine.

When rebuilding high performance or heavy-duty Ford C6 transmissions, it is common to find a worn boost sleeve in the clicker-style valve body. This wear causes poor line rise, which results in erratic shift timing, Reverse shudder or direct clutch failure. This can be caused by the reciprocating boost valve wearing the inside diameter of the boost sleeve. When this occurs, oil that enters the modulated line pressure orifice leaks past the boost valve and exhausts through the Reverse orifice, resulting in poor or no line rise. The outside diameter of the boost sleeve may allow some leakage through the valve body, which can result in insufficient line rise.


Look again at the pic I posted above of the worn boost valve,
and I challenge anyone to say that was NOT the reason this unit came to me with completely fried high clutch, band, and low/reverse clutch.


This unit HAD an "overhaul" not too long ago by another shop, and yet... here it is again all burnt up.

[Jackal]

I'm certainly convinced...lol, I'm sure that's frustrating. I got it on the way from Jegs and a TCI pan and stick tube from Summit since the Summit pan was backordered 2 mo.

Now to choose between a 428 PI and a 429 CJ/SCJ gov. and I should be set.
UPDATE: It sounds like the PI config was setup for lower RPM shifting so probably why people seem to favor the CJ gov.
UPDATE2: Went ahead and ordered the NOS CJ/SCJ unit. (C7AZ-7C063-A) 1967 though? I'd expect it to be a C9 or D0 part, but I can't seem to find anything. The seller claims they confirmed via the "Ford MPC" w/e that is.

Good news about the oil mods too. A guy named Greg has his old info from previous kit purchases that he is going to provide back to Jay @ Broader so I should be able to get my hands on that too.

[Jackal]

STUPID QUESTION ALERT

I'm trying to print off a template for my builder and have questions that may not have answers.

I ASSume that the position of the center punch is 1.17" - 1.18" to the left of center of the shaft hole, and is that .31" - .33" down from the center line? The .31/.33 reference is really confusing here. Also, the center punch mark appears to be off-center from the indicated hole... If I print this off to match the 1.17/1.18" scale, the .31/.33 reference and 1/4" hole don't workout and I end up with about a 3.5" diameter template, probably not all that much larger than it appears on your monitor.

[thatdarncat]

STUPID QUESTION ALERT

I'm trying to print off a template for my builder and have questions that may not have answers.

I ASSume that the position of the center punch is 1.17" - 1.18" to the left of center of the shaft hole, and is that .31" - .33" down from the center line? The .31/.33 reference is really confusing here. Also, the center punch mark appears to be off-center from the indicated hole... If I print this off to match the 1.17/1.18" scale, the .31/.33 reference and 1/4" hole don't workout and I end up with about a 3.5" diameter template, probably not all that much larger than it appears on your monitor.

I’d have to see if I have the original template that came in the Ford kit put away, and see if the drawing exactly matches the measurements. Years ago I made a bunch of copies for people, my copy that is handy is printed on a standard letter size piece of paper. Just doing a quick measurement with a ruler it looks like it’s upscale a little bit. The size of the race boss on the template should match the race boss on the back of the case. And I don’t have a bare C6 case in front of me to check, but I’ll say I’ve done a bunch of these and I don’t even measure any more - if you look on the back of the C6 case you’ll see the casting bulge where the fluid return passage is, and where it is on the other side of that pocket. I just verify it’s there and there isn’t some bizarre casting shift and you should be ok. I realize you probably don’t have the transmission in front of you, and are just trying to provide the exact info for the builder ( and so he can’t blame you if he screws it up ), but what you’re trying to do should be pretty self explanatory for them. What is going to happen in use is that “pocket” is going to fill with fluid and then move into the passage in the race, it’s not critical that the case hole lines up exactly with the fluid passage hole in the race.  I wouldn’t read too much into the centerpunch mark being off center of the hole, it’s possible Ford didn’t assign their most senior draftsman to this instruction sheet project. But yes, I know exactly what happens when you “ass-u-me” lol. I might be able to grab a picture off a bare C6 case later this afternoon.

[gt350hr]

     IIRC Ford incorporated this change into later transmissions.

[thatdarncat]

     IIRC Ford incorporated this change into later transmissions.

Yes, probably started sometime in the 1969 model year I’m guessing, since the kit was released in ‘69. However my 1969 Thunderbird, which was built earlier in the model year, did not have the pressure lubricated race, so it’s always a good thing to check on any earlier C6.

Jackal said in the original post that he has a 1967 C6, so if someone hasn’t modified it already it will also be splash oiled.

[thatdarncat]

Here’s a picture of the back of a FE C6 case. I didn’t get a chance to dig it out from the shelf today to check measurements, maybe tomorrow. But here’s a couple pictures to illustrate. The fluid passage you are drilling into to intersect is this one that the return cooler line attaches to. You can see it is raised on the casting. It’s runs pretty much straight across, then you can see it has an intersecting passage to change the angle. It exits at this hole in between the two output shaft bushings. Where you are drilling inside that pocket in the race boss of the case will intersect the inner part of the passage allowing some of the pressurized fluid to run through the small lube hole that is in the new style race.

[galaxiex]

This is looking down inside the C6 case.

Here I'm shining a light from the left into the cooler passage from outside the case.


That is a piece of welding rod in the passage.


The vertical hole is the one you want to drill.


It's very easy to do, just get the hole in the correct passage, and don't drill thru the back of the case.


Really, you can easily do this without the template. I've done it by "eye" many times.

Note; there are no bushings installed in this case.
It's a spare case I have laying around...


With the pics and info from thatdarncat in his post above, I hope you can see how simple this is.


Edit; even if you get the drilled hole "off" a little, it won't matter, as long as it goes into the existing cooler passage in the case.
It's not a super precise thing.

[galaxiex]

Here's a close-up of the hole.


"more or less" centered side to side in the oval part, and slightly down from center, top to bottom.

[Jackal]

Killer pics and info! I wasn't sure if there was a bulge in the casting for him to go by or not. This helps a ton. Just a note that the Broader instructions spec a 1/8" hole vs. factory 1/4". Interesting.

I got an H servo from a super nice guy over on fordmuscle. Is it plenty safe to run it with the F levers? H apply is getting into R territory, but with way less release.

[Jackal]

Using galaxiex's chart, I took the servo and lever specs and worked out some values for various combos by multiplying the servo apply value by the lever ratio. Not sure how accurately this reflects anything however: (servo / lever)

G / E: 3.77
D / E: 3.85
H / E: 4.33
R / E: 4.59

G / F: 4.69
D / F: 4.78
H / F: 5.38
R / F: 5.70

Looks like an H / F combo would be quite a bit more aggressive than the typical R / E, and nearing the known limits of the R / F combo, so I think I'd either want to stick with G / F, or go with H / E? I have no idea how these parts work together to be able to know which combo would be more desirable. It's nice to have options though!

[galaxiex]

Using galaxiex's chart, I took the servo and lever specs and worked out some values for various combos by multiplying the servo apply value by the lever ratio. Not sure how accurately this reflects anything however: (servo / lever)

G / E: 3.75
H / E: 4.33
R / E: 4.59
G / F: 4.70
D / F: 4.78
P / F: 4.83
H / H: 5.10
H / F: 5.38
R / F: 5.70

Looks like an H / F combo would be quite a bit more aggressive than the typical R / E, and nearing the known limits of the R / F combo, so I think I'd either want to stick with G / F, or go with H / E? I have no idea how these parts work together to be able to know which combo would be more desirable. It's nice to have options though!

I think you're on the right track.

I have not messed around with different servo and lever combos to know what works and what is on the edge.

I do know that the more aggressive levers like the H, F and FF apply more force, but are  slower to "get there" due to the low ratio.
We are talking fractions of a second of course, but that can be an eternity inside the trans, in relation to what else is happening.

The 2 - 3 shift has always been kinda "tricky" since one friction element has to release (the band) as the next one (the high clutch) applies.

Get the ratios and apply/release timing wrong and you get a bind or a flare on the shift.
Band adjustment comes into play here too, tho to a lesser extent.

The G/F or the H/E look good to me too.

I have the R/E in mine, but have not driven it yet.

[Jackal]

I just picked up a D servo to allow more options. Emailed another guy to who might have some insight. Appreciate ya!

[Jackal]

Welp my parts are all here except for the E lever I just ordered. Think I will go H / E. There are so few parts here, I'm thinking twice about having it built now, but it's probably best since it will sit for a few years before install. I think I will run ATI Super F vs. Redline's synthetic F type, if anyone has thoughts on that. Will run the cork pan gasket and the Raybestos Pro Series kevlar intermediate band even though it appears as flimsy as can be. I'm confirming on whether or not I need to remove the fluid dams on it since it looks like it wasn't done as per instructions.

I suppose I will run the stage 4 VB calibration though there is no turning back with the servo modulator valve bypass. I don't think I've ever been behind a C6 I'm embarrassed to admit. I'm not sure if I want to just raise the manual shift points "shift command" safety feature with the new spring, or completely eliminate it with the spring and hex nut if anyone wants to weigh in on this.

I can't think ya'll enough for helping me out with this project. You wouldn't believe how frustrating the whole process has been since I was completely clueless about C6's and didn't even know what to try to find for a donor, let alone all these other details with an early case and all. Hopefully it will be that much more rewarding when bolted up to a fresh rebuild.

For now, the plan is to only eliminate the check ball in the secondary valve piston in the governor should I find one there. I can't really find much more info than that, and even that seems sketchy.

It isn't much, but I'd like to offer up my Broader F lever now, and maybe eventually my other servos if any of you would be interested.

[Jackal]

Sorry to keep kicking this back to the top, almost across the finish line.

Since I have an early 4 clutch forward drum, and my builder doesn't want to do any machining, it seems as though my only option is to purchase a 5 clutch forward drum? Does this swap change anything else critical in my Broader kit or just a typical tolerance check / adjustment? Anyone have a good source for the drum? Additionally, I think he specs the cheaper, non-performance frictions for the forward drum, so I'd either need to score a single steel/friction or switch the whole pack out for another set of reds? He doesn't seem to have these items in stock and recommends I just stick with 4 clutchs in this drum. Thoughts?

[galaxiex]

Careful… early and late fwd drums are different.
The step/pocket where the thrust bearing goes is different depth.
Corresponding difference in the fwd ring gear hub.

[Jackal]

Of course, lots of gotchas in these C6's. 

I'll probably have to stick with the 4-disc drum and I suppose swap out these non-HIPO frictions then.

...or maybe it's worth trying to find a machine shop to handle it for me? Seen mixed thoughts on the larger groove being an issue.

[Jackal]

Im just assuming its a 4-disc since its from 1967 and behind a 390-2v, but maybe Ill luck out?

[galaxiex]

Lotsa gotchas on most any trans from year to year.

Ya, likely a 4 plate drum but could be a 3 plate.

[galaxiex]

Late 5 plate will fit but need the corresponding ring gear hub.

[Jackal]

Thx for the info as per usual, my builder said he can spec one so guess well see whats inside and how much for a larger drum with this ring gear hub.

My D servo showed uo today and made me realize my H servos are for a C4, so Im back to D / F combo and returning this E lever. I'm so over it...haha. Fail.

[galaxiex]

Late drum is better. Ford updated it for a reason....

One more gotcha, The late drum fwd piston outer seal also changed.
It became a lip seal as opposed to the early drum/piston lathe cut seal.

All that means is you need a late type overhaul kit, but all is not lost.
Many O/H kits now cover all years (except 1966 V/B gasket) and have both early and late piston seals in them.

Check the year coverage of your kit, it might have the late lip seal already.
The late lip seal for the forward piston is the ONLY lip seal in the kit.
All other piston seals are lathe cut, so if you find a lip seal in your kit, that's the one for the late fwd piston.

Also, Ford added a wavy cushion plate to the late fwd drum.
The early drum does not have that feature.
Don't be tempted to leave the wavy cushion out to get an extra friction in there.
The wavy cushion makes for a smooth forward engagement with no loss of holding power or durability.
Win, win.

[Jackal]

Appreciate that, I'll see what I have and let builder deal if its missing.

Is .020-.030 clearance in the forward drum with or w/o the spring plate?

I picked up the thinner, early Belleville spring. It sounds like I could have gone with the later spring though instead? Worth getting another one? Assume have to make up for this elsewhere in the stack though huh?

[gt350hr]

   I have an NOS Ford Motorsport high drum in the original box. The snap ring groove placement "looks" like a 4 clutch but these were sold as 5 clutch. Is that possible? I compared it to my used "original" CJ  5 clutch drum and saw the difference. I didn't test fit it for 5.
    Randy

[Jackal]

If early spec. and you end up wanting to move it, let me know.

[galaxiex]

Appreciate that, I'll see what I have and let builder deal if its missing.

Is .020-.030 clearance in the forward drum with or w/o the spring plate?

I picked up the thinner, early Belleville spring. It sounds like I could have gone with the later spring though instead? Worth getting another one? Assume have to make up for this elsewhere in the stack though huh?

.020 -.030 clearance is fine in either forward drum.

Should not mix belleville springs from early and late.
Use the correct spring for the drum you use.


Early thin belleville in a late drum means the belleville will be loose in the drum, not good.


Late thick bellevelle in an early drum, you will have a helluva time getting the snap ring in, if at all.

[galaxiex]

   I have an NOS Ford Motorsport high drum in the original box. The snap ring groove placement "looks" like a 4 clutch but these were sold as 5 clutch. Is that possible? I compared it to my used "original" CJ  5 clutch drum and saw the difference. I didn't test fit it for 5.
    Randy

If early spec. and you end up wanting to move it, let me know.

High clutch drums.... any fit any year, only difference is the number of clutch plates.

General rules...

A 3 plate drum can be converted to a 4 plate.

A 4 plate drum can be converted to a 5 plate.

You CANNOT convert a 3 plate to a 5 plate.

The conversion is easy.

Take your 4 plate drum and install 5 frictions and 5 steels. No top pressure plate yet.
The stack will be very close to the snap ring groove.
Use a spare FORWARD CLUTCH bottom beveled pressure plate upside-down on top of the stack, and then install the snap ring.

Same for a 3 plate to 4 plate. except of course, only 4 friction plates total.

Alternatively you can cut/machine a new snap ring groove higher in the drum to get an extra plate and still use the normal top pressure plate.
This works for 3 to 4 and 4 to 5.

If you have a 3 plate drum and try to cut a snap ring groove high enough to install 5 plates...

... the second last steel plate will get hung up in the original snap ring groove and..... carnage!    You don't want that.

[Jackal]

Looks like Broader's instructions mention eliminating the waved spring to get an extra one in there, but advises against using a lower pressure plate due to the leverage of the disc spring. Guess if he can source one for reasonable price Ill step up, otherwise Ill prob. settle for 4 disc.

Think I've settled on Stage 4 calibration w/o the VB channel cut, and the stiffer Shift Command spring w/o hex nut.

[Jackal]

NVM

[cammerfe]

I used to be possible to buy a specially-made 044 drum from TCI. You might check. It's been a while, but I think it even made possible a 6th clutch plate/steel. (Maybe I'm wrong)

KS

[Jackal]

Thanks cammer.

I ended up with a pre-5/10/1967 unit that has a 57-tooth front ring gear vs. the later 90-tooth count. We sourced the pricey 57-th frictions, but is there any benefit to replacing the front ring gear with a 90-tooth unit? If so, are ANY other changes required?

I'm sending the VB and forward drum to Jay to have the shift kit installed, lube holes enlarged, and a new snap ring groove cut to hold #5.