Author Topic: TFS vs Edelbrock  (Read 7999 times)

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475fetoploader

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TFS vs Edelbrock
« on: September 01, 2020, 12:38:20 AM »
Ok, real world performance. I have a set of Edelbrock performer heads. I’m putting a 428 with a 4.250 stroke together. Disregard the chamber size, let’s assume I build the motor 10.5:1 either way. Let’s do a nice custom solid flat tappet. Street driven 4x4 pickup. What am I leaving on the table versus just buying trick flows, ready to run. I totally get how many variables are missing here. Just wondering if I should sell the Edelbrocks put towards TFS. Single 4barrel, I have a set of tri-y headers. Just throw out a number, or percentage, or whatever. This isn’t an entirely fair question with the variables, but I’m not holding anyone to anything, just wondering how good TFS are?  Ok thanks much!
1967  Fairlane Tunnel Wedge on Proports.
1975 4x4 461 f.e. 4speed Dual Quads on 38’s
Love many, Trust few. Always paddle your own canoe.

blykins

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Re: TFS vs Edelbrock
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2020, 03:56:40 AM »
Out of the box Edelbrocks?  260 cfm slow port against 330 cfm quick port.  75 hp.
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
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chilly460

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Re: TFS vs Edelbrock
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2020, 05:42:14 AM »
I’m thinking 50hp conservative estimate, assuming a pretty mild cam for 4x4 usage.  I switched out a set of bowl ported Edelbrocks to a set of BBM on a fairly mild 390 and picked up 40rwhp, caveat is I did switch to a roller cam at the same time but it had the same intake duration so peak rpms were same.  My edelbrocks were up 20cfm over out of the box, and TFS will be 40-50ish cfm peak over the BBMs.....so the ootb Edelbrocks to TFS would be significant on a ~460ci combo. 
« Last Edit: September 01, 2020, 06:39:46 AM by chilly460 »

cjshaker

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Re: TFS vs Edelbrock
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2020, 07:03:05 AM »
On a street driven 4x4 pickup? And how often will you be driving at WOT? Does anyone have an idea of what's being lost at 1/4 throttle? Half throttle?

I find it somewhat odd that heads that were considered a major improvement just last year, now seem to be considered pretty worthless by some. At least that's the impression they give. Can anyone give a scenario where an Edelbrock head is considered acceptable now? Or should everyone just ditch them?

I guess on the plus side, I should finally be able to afford a set. I just have to wait for people to start ditching their used Edelbrock heads.

A serious question; does this mean the TFS head is more fuel efficient? Will there be a mileage increase if Edelbrocks are replaced with TFS? If so, what should be expected for the increase in MPG?
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

blykins

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Re: TFS vs Edelbrock
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2020, 07:13:39 AM »
I can't remember the last time I used an Edelbrock head.  Pond/BBM/TFS has basically filled the demand for a long time now.  The TFS heads have been out for at least 2 years I think. 

Average horsepower would be up everywhere with the TFS head over the Edelbrock.  It's also a 330 cfm port that has a touch under 170cc volume, compared to a 260 cfm port that has a 170cc volume.  There should be zero compromises with the TFS. 

If you look at pricing between a new assembled pair of Edelbrocks and a new assembled pair of TFS heads, it's about $440 difference.  However, you get smaller stemmed, larger diameter valves, PAC springs, Crane retainers, Viton valve seals, etc., compared to rebuilder-quality parts with the Edelbrocks. 

Unless it's a CNC set of Edelbrocks or some of Blair's Pro Ports, I think the box stock Edelbrocks have been defunct for years now.


« Last Edit: September 01, 2020, 07:17:37 AM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
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Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
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My427stang

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Re: TFS vs Edelbrock
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2020, 08:04:39 AM »
I still have worked Edels on my 489, and they run well, but the TFS would stomp them for far less cash than I spent with KC in 2006 when they were the best we had.

Unfortunately for Edelbrock in this case,  not improving a product makes you obsolete over time. (if they are competitors) Two ports with similar volume, one flows 70+ cfm more, and has a modern chamber, you gain everywhere. 

That being said, I haven't tried a big TFS intake valve with a cheap piston, that generally works with an Edelbrock, so there is some benefit there for head swappers, and in a truck, you still get 30 cfm from a C8AE-H to an Edelbrock, but if doing a whole build, you get 110 cfm from a TFS.  Edelbrock basically sold CJ heads to the masses, which is a good thing, but they don't compare in performance or individual parts quality in the assembled TFS heads

Great question on mileage, the port volume is similar, but with a bigger bowl on the TFS, so I would assume the port itself is a little smaller, especially seeing the small flow directors in there.  If that is the case, part throttle torque would be up, flow numbers certainly are at low lift and torque certainly is at WOT, so maybe, but can't imagine it would be a ton of mileage from the port itself. 

I would throw this out though, the cam to make X amount of HP will be smaller with the TFS, so if I was in a 4x4 pickup ad the price was the same, nowadays, I'd make the power with less cam and compression with the TFS heads over the Edels, and at the same time, benefit from the better chamber and resulting less advance requirement.  When I did my C8AE-Hs they flowed 277, and those heads work great because the intake port is fast, small and efficient after porting.  The TFS, would likely be that on steroids and need even less overlap and lobe for the same power

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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

64PI

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Re: TFS vs Edelbrock
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2020, 08:19:12 AM »
How much room for improvement is there with the TFS heads? Has anyone developed a CNC program for them yet? I've been running a set of Survival CNC edelbrocks on my 450" with pretty good luck. But I do like the thought of a smaller more modern chamber on the TFS.

Twinibeam66

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Re: TFS vs Edelbrock
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2020, 08:30:01 AM »
Im just wondering how much better or worse are TFS heads,  compared to say a Felony head ???

mbrunson427

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Re: TFS vs Edelbrock
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2020, 09:10:52 AM »
I still haven't discarded the BBM heads from consideration, seems like a lot of people have. The BBM heads have almost the same exact combustion chambers as the TFS and the ports are designed to have flow potential left in them. The ports are more of a "starting point" and can be manipulated to make even better performance. Castings are wonderful as well.

I'm also waiting to see somebody do a port job on a set of TFS heads. Seems that budget to performance TFS has hit a bit of a sweet spot.
Mike Brunson
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475fetoploader

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Re: TFS vs Edelbrock
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2020, 09:22:01 AM »
Well, after reading all this, I will probably have a set of Edelbrock heads for sale. I will probably not have a ton of luck listing them on fepower. Thanks for the great feedback as always.
1967  Fairlane Tunnel Wedge on Proports.
1975 4x4 461 f.e. 4speed Dual Quads on 38’s
Love many, Trust few. Always paddle your own canoe.

Joe-JDC

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Re: TFS vs Edelbrock
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2020, 10:22:54 AM »
The TFS heads are already CNC ported out of the box for those who are wondering.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

chilly460

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Re: TFS vs Edelbrock
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2020, 10:30:50 AM »
I'm not trying to kick the Edelbrocks, but I think the perception that they're a major improvement over OEM heads has been somewhat debunked.  Jay showed it in his book, running cleaned up CJs vs Ebrocks and really not seeing a major improvement.  I think they ushered the FE along very well since the mid-late 90s by offering an alloy head with hardened seats, normal architecture, and solid performance with price and availability possible from a major player in the aftermarket. 

As Ross said, just a fact of life that they have been surpassed by Felony/BBMs around 5 years ago with plenty of examples documented, and more recently by the TFS heads which are well documented, this hasn't happened overnight. 

I sold my low mile, bolt on ready, proper valve job and bowl ported Edelbrocks for $1000 used, about two years ago.  The market, as I see it, is anyone already owning them, upgrading with port work while assuring they'll still fit the intake/pushrods/rockers that they have, or folks that just want a nice upgrade from a stock head and buy on the secondary market.  I honestly do not see much demand for them bought new, as they're obsolete at this point and not enough of a price discount to be worth the reduced performance even for mild combos. 

It's impossible for me to say how much it was the cam vs the head upgrade, but all I can convey is the measured 40rwhp bump when I went to BBMs vs bowl ported Edelbrocks....and the car is stronger down low while pulling another 500rpm cleanly up top now. 

Really no different than other engine families, unless i'm missing something I don't see anyone building small blocks with the Performer or old World Product JR heads, or 460s with the original FRPP Cobra Jet heads....they've been surpassed in the last two decades and folks are running AFR heads or the Kaase P-51s. 
« Last Edit: September 01, 2020, 12:40:21 PM by chilly460 »

fryedaddy

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Re: TFS vs Edelbrock
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2020, 12:17:56 PM »
i heard years ago the edelbrocks were just a alu stock replacement head,about the same as cj heads but lighter head,near stock performance
1966 comet caliente 428 4 speed owned since 1983                                                 1973 f250 ranger xlt 360 4 speed papaw bought new

wayne

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Re: TFS vs Edelbrock
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2020, 12:32:14 PM »
One thing i dont under stand is why tfs did not make them to use stock rocker arm gear.

410bruce

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Re: TFS vs Edelbrock
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2020, 12:40:05 PM »
One thing i dont under stand is why tfs did not make them to use stock rocker arm gear.
I agree. Maybe I'm just lazy but it's irritating to me to have to modify something to "make it work."