TFS vs Edelbrock

[475fetoploader]

Ok, real world performance. I have a set of Edelbrock performer heads. I’m putting a 428 with a 4.250 stroke together. Disregard the chamber size, let’s assume I build the motor 10.5:1 either way. Let’s do a nice custom solid flat tappet. Street driven 4x4 pickup. What am I leaving on the table versus just buying trick flows, ready to run. I totally get how many variables are missing here. Just wondering if I should sell the Edelbrocks put towards TFS. Single 4barrel, I have a set of tri-y headers. Just throw out a number, or percentage, or whatever. This isn’t an entirely fair question with the variables, but I’m not holding anyone to anything, just wondering how good TFS are?  Ok thanks much!

[blykins]

Out of the box Edelbrocks?  260 cfm slow port against 330 cfm quick port.  75 hp.

[chilly460]

I’m thinking 50hp conservative estimate, assuming a pretty mild cam for 4x4 usage.  I switched out a set of bowl ported Edelbrocks to a set of BBM on a fairly mild 390 and picked up 40rwhp, caveat is I did switch to a roller cam at the same time but it had the same intake duration so peak rpms were same.  My edelbrocks were up 20cfm over out of the box, and TFS will be 40-50ish cfm peak over the BBMs.....so the ootb Edelbrocks to TFS would be significant on a ~460ci combo. 

[cjshaker]

On a street driven 4x4 pickup? And how often will you be driving at WOT? Does anyone have an idea of what's being lost at 1/4 throttle? Half throttle?

I find it somewhat odd that heads that were considered a major improvement just last year, now seem to be considered pretty worthless by some. At least that's the impression they give. Can anyone give a scenario where an Edelbrock head is considered acceptable now? Or should everyone just ditch them?

I guess on the plus side, I should finally be able to afford a set. I just have to wait for people to start ditching their used Edelbrock heads.

A serious question; does this mean the TFS head is more fuel efficient? Will there be a mileage increase if Edelbrocks are replaced with TFS? If so, what should be expected for the increase in MPG?

[blykins]

I can't remember the last time I used an Edelbrock head.  Pond/BBM/TFS has basically filled the demand for a long time now.  The TFS heads have been out for at least 2 years I think. 

Average horsepower would be up everywhere with the TFS head over the Edelbrock.  It's also a 330 cfm port that has a touch under 170cc volume, compared to a 260 cfm port that has a 170cc volume.  There should be zero compromises with the TFS. 

If you look at pricing between a new assembled pair of Edelbrocks and a new assembled pair of TFS heads, it's about $440 difference.  However, you get smaller stemmed, larger diameter valves, PAC springs, Crane retainers, Viton valve seals, etc., compared to rebuilder-quality parts with the Edelbrocks. 

Unless it's a CNC set of Edelbrocks or some of Blair's Pro Ports, I think the box stock Edelbrocks have been defunct for years now.

[My427stang]

I still have worked Edels on my 489, and they run well, but the TFS would stomp them for far less cash than I spent with KC in 2006 when they were the best we had.

Unfortunately for Edelbrock in this case,  not improving a product makes you obsolete over time. (if they are competitors) Two ports with similar volume, one flows 70+ cfm more, and has a modern chamber, you gain everywhere. 

That being said, I haven't tried a big TFS intake valve with a cheap piston, that generally works with an Edelbrock, so there is some benefit there for head swappers, and in a truck, you still get 30 cfm from a C8AE-H to an Edelbrock, but if doing a whole build, you get 110 cfm from a TFS.  Edelbrock basically sold CJ heads to the masses, which is a good thing, but they don't compare in performance or individual parts quality in the assembled TFS heads

Great question on mileage, the port volume is similar, but with a bigger bowl on the TFS, so I would assume the port itself is a little smaller, especially seeing the small flow directors in there.  If that is the case, part throttle torque would be up, flow numbers certainly are at low lift and torque certainly is at WOT, so maybe, but can't imagine it would be a ton of mileage from the port itself. 

I would throw this out though, the cam to make X amount of HP will be smaller with the TFS, so if I was in a 4x4 pickup ad the price was the same, nowadays, I'd make the power with less cam and compression with the TFS heads over the Edels, and at the same time, benefit from the better chamber and resulting less advance requirement.  When I did my C8AE-Hs they flowed 277, and those heads work great because the intake port is fast, small and efficient after porting.  The TFS, would likely be that on steroids and need even less overlap and lobe for the same power

[64PI]

How much room for improvement is there with the TFS heads? Has anyone developed a CNC program for them yet? I've been running a set of Survival CNC edelbrocks on my 450" with pretty good luck. But I do like the thought of a smaller more modern chamber on the TFS.

[Twinibeam66]

Im just wondering how much better or worse are TFS heads,  compared to say a Felony head

[mbrunson427]

I still haven't discarded the BBM heads from consideration, seems like a lot of people have. The BBM heads have almost the same exact combustion chambers as the TFS and the ports are designed to have flow potential left in them. The ports are more of a "starting point" and can be manipulated to make even better performance. Castings are wonderful as well.

I'm also waiting to see somebody do a port job on a set of TFS heads. Seems that budget to performance TFS has hit a bit of a sweet spot.

[475fetoploader]

Well, after reading all this, I will probably have a set of Edelbrock heads for sale. I will probably not have a ton of luck listing them on fepower. Thanks for the great feedback as always.

[Joe-JDC]

The TFS heads are already CNC ported out of the box for those who are wondering.  Joe-JDC

[chilly460]

I'm not trying to kick the Edelbrocks, but I think the perception that they're a major improvement over OEM heads has been somewhat debunked.  Jay showed it in his book, running cleaned up CJs vs Ebrocks and really not seeing a major improvement.  I think they ushered the FE along very well since the mid-late 90s by offering an alloy head with hardened seats, normal architecture, and solid performance with price and availability possible from a major player in the aftermarket. 

As Ross said, just a fact of life that they have been surpassed by Felony/BBMs around 5 years ago with plenty of examples documented, and more recently by the TFS heads which are well documented, this hasn't happened overnight. 

I sold my low mile, bolt on ready, proper valve job and bowl ported Edelbrocks for $1000 used, about two years ago.  The market, as I see it, is anyone already owning them, upgrading with port work while assuring they'll still fit the intake/pushrods/rockers that they have, or folks that just want a nice upgrade from a stock head and buy on the secondary market.  I honestly do not see much demand for them bought new, as they're obsolete at this point and not enough of a price discount to be worth the reduced performance even for mild combos. 

It's impossible for me to say how much it was the cam vs the head upgrade, but all I can convey is the measured 40rwhp bump when I went to BBMs vs bowl ported Edelbrocks....and the car is stronger down low while pulling another 500rpm cleanly up top now. 

Really no different than other engine families, unless i'm missing something I don't see anyone building small blocks with the Performer or old World Product JR heads, or 460s with the original FRPP Cobra Jet heads....they've been surpassed in the last two decades and folks are running AFR heads or the Kaase P-51s. 

[fryedaddy]

i heard years ago the edelbrocks were just a alu stock replacement head,about the same as cj heads but lighter head,near stock performance

[wayne]

One thing i dont under stand is why tfs did not make them to use stock rocker arm gear.

[410bruce]

One thing i dont under stand is why tfs did not make them to use stock rocker arm gear.

I agree. Maybe I'm just lazy but it's irritating to me to have to modify something to "make it work."

[wayne]

Has any one run the keith craft ported pro max heads how do they fit in is their more players in the fe head game.

[wayne]

Has any one run the keith craft ported pro max heads how do they fit in is their more players in the fe head game.

[cjshaker]

i heard years ago the edelbrocks were just a alu stock replacement head,about the same as cj heads but lighter head,near stock performance

I've never owned a set, but was under the impression that they had a more modern chamber that required less initial timing, which is still a big plus. I just glanced at a few pictures and saw the chamber isn't much different than stock, so I guess the timing advantage isn't there? That certainly eliminates what would amount to a big plus.

Really no different than other engine families, unless i'm missing something I don't see anyone building small blocks with the Performer or old World Product JR heads, or 460s with the original FRPP Cobra Jet heads....they've been surpassed in the last two decades and folks are running AFR heads or the Kaase P-51s. 

All good points.

[wayne]

Sorry for two posts.

[blykins]

Has any one run the keith craft ported pro max heads how do they fit in is their more players in the fe head game.

They would be no different than an Edelbrock.   The Pro Maxx heads are carbon copies of the Edelbrocks, copied by a Chinese company.   They are Pro Comp/Speedmaster wannabes.

[wayne]

That makes me mad how do companys get away with this the website says made and ported in usa their should be a law to stop it.

[brettco]

 The one on fb last week was cast quite a bit nicer than edelbrock. 

[My427stang]

Promaxx is showing some big numbers, but you have to go with a 200 cc port in order to get to the level that just eeks over the trick flows at max lift, and then they’re 2500 bucks. The next level down is cheap but only flows 280

I’m not overly impressed with the Promaxx, Not saying they are bad or good, just saying they arent anything that special

[Posi67]

My 390 has a set of Edelbrock's that I bought bare and had some Stage XR7 porting done to them. Pretty mild with CJ valve size however they were done with the engine combo in mind and it runs pretty hard. Would I buy another set.. not a chance since there's so many better heads out there at this time as previously mentioned. Trick Flows seem to be the best out of the box these days but as also mentioned.. the unusable stock valve train components make them also a no for me. I might die of old age waiting for the Trick Flow T-wedge to show up but that's another subject.  As always, listen to the experts here and get the right head for your Combo. Guys like Brent have tried them all so know what's what.

Years ago I bought Dove's because everyone in the free world was running Edelbrock and I wanted to be different. They were spuds out of the box as well in spite of what Dove claims (and still claims btw) but nothing money couldn't fix. Made some decent power for the time but another thing I won't repeat.     

[Joey120373]

Would be cool if one of the manufacturers who make such things would offer a “TF” rocker shaft stand.
Trick flow would be the first company I would ask, since they created the issue.

Shortening the stands isn’t that big of a deal I guess, but it is a pain for the weekend warrior in his garage who just wants to bolt them on and go, and doesn’t have a machine shop at his disposal.

Shaft stands aren’t all that expensive, POP sells a set for a $100, I think like 99.9%  of the people who are buying the TF heads would gladly pay $100 more for a set that came with stands that worked.

Just my $.02....

[blykins]

Would be cool if one of the manufacturers who make such things would offer a “TF” rocker shaft stand.
Trick flow would be the first company I would ask, since they created the issue.

Shortening the stands isn’t that big of a deal I guess, but it is a pain for the weekend warrior in his garage who just wants to bolt them on and go, and doesn’t have a machine shop at his disposal.

Shaft stands aren’t all that expensive, POP sells a set for a $100, I think like 99.9%  of the people who are buying the TF heads would gladly pay $100 more for a set that came with stands that worked.

Just my $.02....

Even with other brands of heads, rocker stands need to be moved up and down some, so it's not like the TFS heads are the only ones that require work.  I do know that it's easier to shim up than mill down though. 

On the TFS heads, depending on which rocker arm is used, I've had to move anywhere from .080" to .250".   I've used factory non-adjustables, T&D streets, Harland Sharp adjustable, LMS non-adjustable, and Comp Cams. 

Maybe we could get POP to make us some shelf TFS stands.  You reading this, Doug?

[My427stang]

Would be cool if one of the manufacturers who make such things would offer a “TF” rocker shaft stand.
Trick flow would be the first company I would ask, since they created the issue.

Shortening the stands isn’t that big of a deal I guess, but it is a pain for the weekend warrior in his garage who just wants to bolt them on and go, and doesn’t have a machine shop at his disposal.

Shaft stands aren’t all that expensive, POP sells a set for a $100, I think like 99.9%  of the people who are buying the TF heads would gladly pay $100 more for a set that came with stands that worked.

Just my $.02....

I talked to Doug about this and he is reluctant to do so because all of the varying rocker designs, he feels like he can't promise one height that will work. 

I think that rocker geometry for the average FE crowd has been less of a thing until the past 5 years or so (other builders don't shoot at me I know some guys do it LOL) but  likely ALL stands, for all heads, can use some work.

So far though, with Brent's rockers anyway, I can lop off .075 from Doug's lowrisers and they look great.  Cutting is easy too.  My machinist stabs a shaft through all, not sure how he attaches it to deck, but does 4 at a time.  Charges me nearly nothing, which tells me the work is easy

[Barry_R]

Some of this compatible stuff is why I did my heads the way I did - making the valvetrain and port opening positioning the same as Edelbrock guaranteed that all the popular and pre-existing parts would fit without a bunch of drama for the guy assembling things at home.

FWIW the bolt on Edelbrock heads are quite a bit less expensive than other options (other than the Chinese knock off parts), and always readily available.

[blykins]

I'm gonna yell at Doug again and talk to him about it.  Even if he made stands 1/4" shorter, shimming up is pretty easy and you could shim based on the rocker arm. 

[427LX]

What do the factory 428 CJ heads flow?  If the Edelbrocks flow same or a bit more still a decent street head for a mild performance. Save weight and allow a bit more compression on pump gas.
Depends on what your performance goal is. Driving on street you will be below 5000 RPM most the time.

[1964Fastback]

I'm gonna yell at Doug again and talk to him about it.  Even if he made stands 1/4" shorter, shimming up is pretty easy and you could shim based on the rocker arm.

Maybe include a pack of 5 shims per stand, at something like 2 @ .050, 1 @ .030 and 2 @ .020.  Don't know if that's feasible or not.

Pat

[blykins]

I'm gonna yell at Doug again and talk to him about it.  Even if he made stands 1/4" shorter, shimming up is pretty easy and you could shim based on the rocker arm.

Maybe include a pack of 5 shims per stand, at something like 2 @ .050, 1 @ .030 and 2 @ .020.  Don't know if that's feasible or not.

Pat

Bad thing about just using shims per stand is that the end stands are not fully supported.  That's why I had my one-piece laser cut stands made. 

[GerryP]

What do the factory 428 CJ heads flow?  If the Edelbrocks flow same or a bit more still a decent street head for a mild performance. Save weight and allow a bit more compression on pump gas.
Depends on what your performance goal is. Driving on street you will be below 5000 RPM most the time.

In the 250 to 260 CFM range.  Depends upon whose flow bench is sucking.  There wouldn't be all that much power difference between a factory MR, CJ, or Edelbrock.  And the Edelbrock is closer to the MR in design as it uses the same MR port.  Difference is in the CJ valve size and the slightly relocated valves.  I know the band wagon is coming through a town near you to throw out those crappy Edelbrock heads.  I got mine shortly after they came out and I still think they are a pretty good head.  Not saying there aren't better options out there now, but Edelbrocks are, in my opinion, a good bolt-on option.

[1964Fastback]

Bad thing about just using shims per stand is that the end stands are not fully supported.  That's why I had my one-piece laser cut stands made.

I forgot you had those, and had to look it up!  Sounds like the stands are the only missing puzzle piece.

Pat

[blykins]

Talked to Doug.  He's gonna offer a complete kit for TFS heads with .200" shorter stands.  That would be a "universal" stand that would be able to be used with every rocker I've tried so far.  Worst case scenario at that point is just shimming up when needed.

[chilly460]

Well, that’s cool.  I haven’t found a local machine shop I’ve found that I trust, or that has anything close to sane turnaround times, so this will be a nice option for TFS heads

[wayne]

We may be hurting our self when edelbrock came out they were the best thing in a long time now junk? It takes a lot of money and time to make a new new part  barrys bbm trick flow pro max jays not as many fe as small block.People have to make their money back or we will stop seeing new parts. Think about what you need a little better then what you have now or a race head on the street you will never use give all the players a chance. This is not for any one maker just my 2 cents.

[plovett]

All right, that's it!  I am going to keep my Edelbrick heads after all then.  Trick Flow heads are too mainstream for me now.   Next thing you know I'll be spinning a hydraulic roller cam and dreaming about turbos and LS's, and talking about my feelings.  Yech! 

pl

[KsHighboy]

I personally think that as FE Lovers we should embrace new technology. I understand that those who bought Edelbrock heads  may now feel like they bought something subpar. But, at the time they were not. Obviously,  the BBM' s and TFS heads are a better no matter the level of build.  Camshafts as well have come a long way. FE's didn't come with roller cams but to me if they make mote power and keep the FE competitive let's embrace that. I love guys like Brent,  Barry, Jay and Blair that keep old iron competitive. Look at how many parts are available to us today that the old time r s didn't have. 

[GerryP]

I personally think that as FE Lovers we should embrace new technology. I understand that those who bought Edelbrock heads  may now feel like they bought something subpar.

We do.  Nobody is taking the position that Edelbrock FE heads are state of the art and top of the line.  If their day, they were about the only practical choice in aftermarket FE heads.  They are still very good and I don't think anybody who has them is having regrets.  After all, how could you lament a choice made 15 years ago when there weren't any other options?  I like my Edelbrocks.  They work quite good.  When I get around to building my 428, I will not be recycling the Edelbrocks.  They won't work for how I intend to build that engine.  It will be whatever is the best option for when I need to screw heads onto the thing.  Maybe TFS will take it's place on the pile of subpar because someone will come out with a new, magical cylinder head.  You make a choice based upon what's available and what information you've been able to gather.

[wayne]

What i was trying to say was Berry Brent Jay cant spend with edelbrock bbm trick flow and we got some good stuff from them And i hate to see them not sell enough to make it worth their time and cash to do it .

[Nightmist66]

We needn't forget the Pro Port line from Edelbrock. It is very potent in the right hands. The nice thing is they are a blank canvas. I have a set of custom Pro Ports on my junk and I know they will out perform the TFS as delivered. Shortly after I got mine, a new program came out to start the chamber at 64cc. Wish I could've started with those instead of 70cc. I had them wacked miles to get to 53cc. Yes, they will cost more, but there is a little more love baked into the recipe. JMO

[Nightmist66]

I've never owned a set, but was under the impression that they had a more modern chamber that required less initial timing, which is still a big plus. I just glanced at a few pictures and saw the chamber isn't much different than stock, so I guess the timing advantage isn't there?

I believe the off-the-shelf Ed's like around 37°.

[plovett]

I've never owned a set, but was under the impression that they had a more modern chamber that required less initial timing, which is still a big plus. I just glanced at a few pictures and saw the chamber isn't much different than stock, so I guess the timing advantage isn't there?

I believe the off-the-shelf Ed's like around 37°.

That's exactly where my Edelbrocks liked the timing, on the dyno.  I run them at 36-37 total.   I think that is a little less timing than most factory FE heads.

pl

[Tommy-T]

Paulie,

I wouldn't worry about Edelbrock going out of business soon as far as FE parts go.

The Survival head and the TFS head are both foundered by Edelbrock. Their logo is quite prominent on both castings. Along with the Pro Port and their own RPM complete head, besides BBM and the China stuff they have the FE market locked.

There were numerous 10 and 9 second cars around a few years ago with the standard Edelbrock head extensively ported. The old Texas Thunder Galaxie comes to mind. Where is Mark Artis now?

[plovett]

Don't try to console me, Tommy.  I thought this was a safe place.

[plovett]

Okay, I didn't know Edelbrock was casting the TFS heads.  I knew they were casting the Survival heads.  I had emailed TFS and they said the heads were cast in the U.S. and machined in Ohio.   

I say hooray for Edelbrock!

I do agree that the TFS and Survival heads are miles above the standard Edelbrocks.  It is funny though, how even in a non-mainstream esoteric group like the FE community, there are mainstream and fringe subgroups.   TFS and hydraulic rollers are the flavor of the month.  Plain old Edelbrocks now seem like the quaint choice. 

I'd like to put a set of TFS heads on my current short block, but that'd shove my compression up to 11.5:1 or so.  I wish they had a 74 or 75 cc chamber.   I wonder why they went with the 69-70 cc chamber?   Maybe it's just a product of the chamber design itself?  Or maybe it is because the head is targeted towards the more plentiful 390's and a smaller chamber is helpful to build compression with the smaller engines?  Pretty neat head at any rate, and a great bargain even with the weird stand height and non-heli-coiled exhaust bolt holes.

We've had the conversation before, but the FE is not the most practical or "sensible" choice.  If you start down that path, then the 385 series makes more "sense".  And the turbo LS makes more "sense" than that.   Hell, an electric car makes more "sense".   A Tesla will out accelerate my Cougar.   Makes me sad, but there it is.  Still, no 'lectric car for me.  Everybody here has to decide where their line is.   I would never use a hydraulic cam or fuel injection on my FE, or put a touch screen in my Cougar.   I say at some point you should just buy a new car if you like all that.   Enjoy the old cars for what they are.  But somebody else has a different "line" than me.   But TFS heads?   I say hell yeah.   They apparently did a bang up job on them.

I have thought for a long time that it was strange that Edelbrock never come out with a Victor FE head, but that is a smaller market and has been served by others like Blue Thunder, Survival, Dove, BBM, Pro Ports (again Edelbrock), and the all the head porters.   Still, a Victor FE would be cool.  I would say it is too late now as that market is fairly full, and they are making raw castings that become "Victors" anyway.

Ramble over.   

pl