Harmonic balancer questions

[Rory428]

Cracking balancers is not just an FE thing, had that happen with a stock replacement BBC one once.

I’m inclined to agree with Brent, I would rather spend money on a part that fits.

Seems silly and somewhat lazy of manufacturers to charge hundreds of dollars for a part that doesn’t actually fit its intended purpose.

Especially when the balancer builder can put TDC wherever he wants to

Or especially when the crankshaft builder could use the original FE keyway and key size. I certainly hope that Scat supplies the required crank keys and a notification sheet with the crankshaft, rather than leave that detail up to the customer. Wonder why the thought the FE key setup was no good? Can`t say I have ever heard of any failures with the stock setup. Does this require a different crank timing gear as well?

[Rory428]

And for what it`s worth, I have never seen any good running naturally aspirated Stock,Super stock, Competition Eliminator or Pro Stock engine use any stye damper other than an elastomer style . No Fluid Damper, TCI Rattler, or any other styles. Almost always an ATI. Maybe just my observations, but at least here on the West Coast, the ATI is by far the most popular. Of course for the original posters application thats a moot point as to what high end pro builds use.

[My427stang]

Rory it’s the same dimensions just two of them and easy to find. Whatever your buddy did he tried to make parts fit that weren’t supposed to go in there

Takes no special parts and no special thinking it’s about the easiest thing you could do except you have to do two little keys instead of one and even then you could leave one out and it would work just fine

[blykins]

Wow, someone’s Cheerios got peed in this morning.

We all know you got a bone to pick with Scat, Rory but not sure why you decided to show your hindend today.  Rough day?

[Nightmist66]

Joe, I used the Pioneer SFI version on my build this time. I had heard good things about them and it also looks more like a stock type damper, which is what I wanted. It fit well and timing marks checked spot on. I did put a timing tape on, just because they are so convenient to read and then clear coated a couple layers over it to make sure it doesn't peel. Also, my '68 pulley I decided to use bolted right on without issue

[pumpbldr]

Another one to consider is the SCJ Repop without the hatchet. Big nice unit, degrees perfect and all pulleys work.

Doug aka Pumpbldr

[Joey120373]

Joe, I used the Pioneer SFI version on my build this time. I had heard good things about them and it also looks more like a stock type damper, which is what I wanted. It fit well and timing marks checked spot on. I did put a timing tape on, just because they are so convenient to read and then clear coated a couple layers over it to make sure it doesn't peel. Also, my '68 pulley I decided to use bolted right on without issue.

Thanks, this is the kind of info I was hoping for. There are so many parts available these days, and The prices range from scary cheep to “ sounds reasonable “ yet so many of them are just rebranded offshore junk.
I’m perfectly willing to spend $100+ on a basic stock replacement balancer, so long as I know it’s a quality piece. But if that $100 unit turns out to be the same rebranded turd sold on flea at for $40....
Great comments in this thread and way more that I was expecting.

I’m on my phone at the moment, so swapping web pages and copying links is just too much of a pain, but one of the more recent entries in the dyno section relates a very close call with a faulty balancer.
That was what motivated this thread.
Thanks for the recommendation

[Rory428]

Wow, someone’s Cheerios got peed in this morning.

We all know you got a bone to pick with Scat, Rory but not sure why you decided to show your hindend today.  Rough day?

Not at all, nothing personal against SCAT, I do have a set of their FE rods, just curious why they would make a crank for a FE, and decide to change something that has never been an issue. And if they do not supply the crank key(s), and instructions pointing out the change, why not? I just used the crank as an example that sometimes aftermarket parts need a bit of attention to work, and I really didn`t consider the task of slotting 3 holes and grinding a timing pointer, with tools everybody has in their toolbox, a big deal. At least it doesn`t require an expensive milling machine, as in the case of the TFS head rocker stands, which you consider to be perfectly acceptable.

[blykins]

Wow, someone’s Cheerios got peed in this morning.

We all know you got a bone to pick with Scat, Rory but not sure why you decided to show your hindend today.  Rough day?

Not at all, nothing personal against SCAT, I do have a set of their FE rods, just curious why they would make a crank for a FE, and decide to change something that has never been an issue. And if they do not supply the crank key(s), and instructions pointing out the change, why not? I just used the crank as an example that sometimes aftermarket parts need a bit of attention to work, and I really didn`t consider the task of slotting 3 holes and grinding a timing pointer, with tools everybody has in their toolbox, a big deal. At least it doesn`t require an expensive milling machine, as in the case of the TFS head rocker stands, which you consider to be perfectly acceptable.

Yes, TFS heads require stand modifications, and it varies depending on what rocker you use.   Some guys have bolted on off-the-shelf Harland Sharp adjustable rockers and didn't have to touch anything.  I haven't used that rocker set yet on them, so I can't vouch for that.  But the point is, if there was another identical head that performed the same and had the same quality, that didn't need stand modifications, then maybe I would choose that one.  For 99% of the FE's built on this forum, a Powerbond, a Romac, or an IW balancer would work just fine, are cheaper, and don't require any reworking, other than shooting another coat of clear on the Romac if you choose to.  As a matter of fact, now that I think about it, I'm not totally convinced an ATI is any more special than those.  I've always held them a little higher esteemed based on what I've seen other guys say, but I've had Powerbond and Romac on some pretty high end/high rpm FE's and have never had a problem.   Edited my post to agree that I would never put a Rattler or Fluidampr on anything.

The aftermarket isn't really that special.  Factory parts aren't any better.  My 352's C6AE-R heads were off 2-3cc from head to head on chamber volume.  Factory blocks are sometimes off .020" on deck height from side to side and end to end.  Takes some pretty expensive equipment to fix that, can't do it with hand tools. 

As for the crank keys, still not seeing what all the fuss is about.  I have a parts box mounted to my wall.  When a factory crank comes in, I reach for one little drawer and get a key.  When a Scat crank comes out of the box, I just open up the other little drawer and grab another key.   Do I need an instruction sheet for that?  Forbid that someone gets one that uses BBC rods and sits there all puzzled trying to make an FE rod bearing fit on the journal because they didn't have an instruction sheet.   Sounds like your buddy was a bit ham-fisted and shouldn't be around engine parts.  If the balancer/spacer is going on hard enough to split it, maybe a little bit of experience should have set a signal off in his mind. 

[cjshaker]

Not worth it

[blykins]

Yep, welcome to my world.  About had enough of it.

[frnkeore]

Regarding the Scat, key issue. A first time user of that crank, will know that the rods are BBC, because that's how it's advertised and I don't think ANY 4.25 cranks, have FE rod journals.

Woodruff keys (half moon) keys are made in several different diameters, for the same width key. Unless Scat, spells out what key it takes, not many would appreciate having to take their crank down to the parts store, to find the one that fits.

That's probably the reason that the guy split his dampener, he got the wrong diameter key, that set to high.

https://www.engineersedge.com/woodruff_keys.htm

[blykins]

Regarding the Scat, key issue. A first time user of that crank, will know that the rods are BBC, because that's how it's advertised and I don't think ANY 4.25 cranks, have FE rod journals.

Woodruff keys (half moon) keys are made in several different diameters, for the same width key. Unless Scat, spells out what key it takes, not many would appreciate having to take their crank down to the parts store, to find the one that fits.

That's probably the reason that the guy split his dampener, he got the wrong diameter key, that set to high.

https://www.engineersedge.com/woodruff_keys.htm

Frank, the balancer doesn't even go on the woodruff key. 

For Pete's sake, the balancer keyway is totally different from the timing gear keyway and the balancer keyway on a Scat crank is no different than a factory crank.  If someone whopper-jawed a balancer installation that bad, it wasn't because the key was wrong. 

Y'all understand that, right?  The timing gear keyway and the balancer keyway are 180° from each other on an FE crankshaft.  The balancer key on a Scat is the same as a balancer key on factory.....square key.   Woodruff key for the timing gear and spacer.   

[frnkeore]

I stand corrected, I've never seen a Scat crank.

But, the Woodruff key issue, is still, a issue.

[Nightmist66]

There are so many parts available these days, and The prices range from scary cheep to “ sounds reasonable “ yet so many of them are just rebranded offshore junk.

I forgot to mention that these are made in Australia.