Harmonic balancer questions

[Joey120373]

Was wondering if those of you that build a lot of FEs could give me a bit of advice.

First question, hopefully the easier of the two. Who makes a good quality, basically stock replacement balancer? Or what balancer do you prefer to use on a mild, let’s say sub 5500 rpm truck motor (360-390) . Does not need to be certified for anything, just a good unit and not a cheep offshore chunk.


Second question, in a performance “street-strip” application, where it does need certification, will deal with RPMs over 6000-6500 and live a long happy life doing so.
What’s the preference in that case?
And, I notice that many performance balancers are dual purpose, for the 386 motor as well as the FE. But usually burried in the fine print it said that some machining is required to make them fit the FE. What needs to be machined? Are there balancers made that are high quality and made to just work out of the box?

First motor it’s quite litterally a back up, bone stock 360 in a truck. Going to be pulling it apart soon for some minor upgrades and such. Origional balancer is looking pretty rough so would rather go back together with a decent stock replacement.

Second will be for the “real” motor that I am still gathering parts for, 520 ish cubes, jays heads ( I hope ) 6000 -6500 rpm or so pump gas weekend toy.  Not a fire breathing 800-900 horse monster , but should still be pretty stout, and I want to use quality components everywhere it matters.

Thamks

[thatdarncat]

For NHRA rules, generally you need a SFI certified harmonic balancer for 10.99 ET & quicker.

I know Barry R. has covered the harmonic balancer subject before, hopefully he and the other builders weigh in.

A lot of people use the ATI balancer for a high quality SFI certified harmonic balancer on FE’s. My understanding is the ATI for the FE uses a hub that is shared with other engine brands, so the timing marks can be off 7 degrees, and you want to be sure to check TDC and modify a timing pointer to match. Jay has detailed how to make a new FE timing pointer for the ATI balancer in a few of his engine build threads here in the past, it’s pretty easy.

I have an Innovators West SFI balancer on the 428 in one of my cars that is primarily bracket raced, no issues and the bearings looked good last time it was freshened, and have another one going on a 427 being built now. You have to shorten the FE crank spacer sleeve to use the Innovators West balancer, but the timing marks are on. The instructions that come with the Innovators West balancer details how much to shorten the spacer.   

[blykins]

For most of my street builds, I will use a Powerbond.   The PB1111ST goes on most of my street engines. 

For race stuff, I will use a Romac or Powerbond PB1111SS.   

The ATI is a nice piece, probably more suited for race engines without a pulley system because you do get into issues with the crank pulley and as Kevin pointed out, the timing marks are 7° off.

Innovators West is also a nice piece.  I use those on my high end pulling engines because they have integrated crank trigger diamonds.  Just makes things less complicated. 

As always with any of them, check the balancer marks against your pointer. 

[cjshaker]

For most of my street builds, I will use a Powerbond.   The PB1111ST goes on most of my street engines. 

For race stuff, I will use a Romac or Powerbond PB1111SS.   

The ATI is a nice piece, probably more suited for race engines without a pulley system because you do get into issues with the crank pulley and as Kevin pointed out, the timing marks are 7° off.

Innovators West is also a nice piece.  I use those on my high end pulling engines because they have integrated crank trigger diamonds.  Just makes things less complicated. 

As always with any of them, check the balancer marks against your pointer.

I'm curious what issues you had with the ATI? I've used 2 of them now, and I've not had any issues using them, even when using stock type pulleys or March pulleys. They are originally designed for the BBC, so you do have to regrind your stock timing pointer to add 7* of advance, and you do have to slightly 'wobble' the holes so the pulleys will bolt on, but that is easily done in a couple of minutes with a rat tail file. Very easy to do, and it does not affect its mounting or operation.

I've also used the Romac twice, and while it's a nice piece, corrosion always seems to be an issue with them. The clear coating does not hold up well. It doesn't affect the balancer, but visually they end up looking bad after a few years.

[Joey120373]

Thanks for the info, I will look these. Modifying the timing pointer is not a big deal to me, even if the marks are “on” , I would double check and adjust as needed. One of these days, hopefully soon, I will be getting a nice big garage or shop with a new house attached to it ( to make the wife happy) and one of the first things I plan on buying will be my own lathe!

[Falcon67]

The balancer on my 450 HP 351C is a stocker that was reworked by Damper Dudes some 20 years ago.  It's doing fine after all those years of racing, so if you have a near stocker they can put it back into shape that may well last forever.  Yes, it needs to be replaced with a SFI unit. 

[blykins]

For most of my street builds, I will use a Powerbond.   The PB1111ST goes on most of my street engines. 

For race stuff, I will use a Romac or Powerbond PB1111SS.   

The ATI is a nice piece, probably more suited for race engines without a pulley system because you do get into issues with the crank pulley and as Kevin pointed out, the timing marks are 7° off.

Innovators West is also a nice piece.  I use those on my high end pulling engines because they have integrated crank trigger diamonds.  Just makes things less complicated. 

As always with any of them, check the balancer marks against your pointer.

I'm curious what issues you had with the ATI? I've used 2 of them now, and I've not had any issues using them, even when using stock type pulleys or March pulleys. They are originally designed for the BBC, so you do have to regrind your stock timing pointer to add 7* of advance, and you do have to slightly 'wobble' the holes so the pulleys will bolt on, but that is easily done in a couple of minutes with a rat tail file. Very easy to do, and it does not affect its mounting or operation.

I've also used the Romac twice, and while it's a nice piece, corrosion always seems to be an issue with them. The clear coating does not hold up well. It doesn't affect the balancer, but visually they end up looking bad after a few years.

Same.  For the price you pay for them, I don't like having to work on anything.  The Romacs and Powerbonds both will take a lot of horsepower and rpm and I generally don't have to touch them.  Marks are always on, pulleys bolt right up.  Don't have to hone the hubs. 

I clear coat the Romacs after had my first one surface rust 15 years ago.

[TJ]

The balancer on my 450 HP 351C is a stocker that was reworked by Damper Dudes some 20 years ago.  It's doing fine after all those years of racing, so if you have a near stocker they can put it back into shape that may well last forever.  Yes, it needs to be replaced with a SFI unit.

I don't think I'd quite say forever.  I've always believed they go bad and doesn't hurt to replace them at least every 20 years or so.  At the least I'd install a new one on a fresh build...even on a slow turning diesel.

[Rory428]

Until NHRA made SFI dampers mandatory on 10 second and quicker cars many years ago, I always used factory FE balancers, and never had any issues. I have been running ATI Super Dampers on my drag race FEs for over 20 years, with no problems. As mentioned, the TDC mark is of 7-8 degrees, 2 minutes with a grinder cured that, and the 3 pulley bolt holes need to be slightly elongated, another 2 or 3 minutes with a round fie fixes that, as the register ''nub'' is the correct diameter. For my 331 SB Ford race engine, I have a SFI Powerbond, that is fine as well. but for a mild street FE, I see no need for anything more than a factory balancer. As long as the rubber is in good condition, and the marks line up, I can think of better paces to use that money.                                                                                    As for Brent not liking to have to modify new parts that should be made correctly to start with, I agree, but find it curious that he doesn`t seem to mind having Scat FE crankshafts that require oddball crank keys, or cutting down rocker stands to use TFS heads.By comparison, a few minutes to make an ATI balancer work seems pretty minor.

[blykins]

Until NHRA made SFI dampers mandatory on 10 second and quicker cars many years ago, I always used factory FE balancers, and never had any issues. I have been running ATI Super Dampers on my drag race FEs for over 20 years, with no problems. As mentioned, the TDC mark is of 7-8 degrees, 2 minutes with a grinder cured that, and the 3 pulley bolt holes need to be slightly elongated, another 2 or 3 minutes with a round fie fixes that, as the register ''nub'' is the correct diameter. For my 331 SB Ford race engine, I have a SFI Powerbond, that is fine as well. but for a mild street FE, I see no need for anything more than a factory balancer. As long as the rubber is in good condition, and the marks line up, I can think of better paces to use that money.                                                                                    As for Brent not liking to have to modify new parts that should be made correctly to start with, I agree, but find it curious that he doesn`t seem to mind having Scat FE crankshafts that require oddball crank keys, or cutting down rocker stands to use TFS heads.By comparison, a few minutes to make an ATI balancer work seems pretty minor.

Well, I gotta give you all something to get wadded up over, don’t I?

I don’t have crank key issues with Scat, and changing the stand height is part of building an engine.  They either have to go up or down to get geometry right, TFS heads aren’t the first ones I’ve had to mill stands down to make things right. Every head and every rocker requires something different.  There isn’t another off the shelf head that performs like a TFS, so I suppose I’d overlook it anyway. 

But if I can buy an equally reputable balancer that I don’t have to modify, I will do that. 

[Rory428]

I was under the impression that you could not use the normal FE crank keys for the timing gear and harmonic balancer, is that not the case? Never owned a Scat crank, just 2nd hand information from a friend who said his balancer spacer split due to crank key issues.

[My427stang]

I was under the impression that you could not use the normal FE crank keys for the timing gear and harmonic balancer, is that not the case? Never owned a Scat crank, just 2nd hand information from a friend who said his balancer spacer split due to crank key issues.

The balancer uses a standard FE key

The timing gear and spacer are located by two SBC keys in line.  It's a big nothing burger

ON EDIT: The wrong 3/16 key will sit tall, but wrong is wrong, can't really blame the crank for that

[Joey120373]

Cracking balancers is not just an FE thing, had that happen with a stock replacement BBC one once.

I’m inclined to agree with Brent, I would rather spend money on a part that fits.

Seems silly and somewhat lazy of manufacturers to charge hundreds of dollars for a part that doesn’t actually fit its intended purpose.

[My427stang]

Cracking balancers is not just an FE thing, had that happen with a stock replacement BBC one once.

I’m inclined to agree with Brent, I would rather spend money on a part that fits.

Seems silly and somewhat lazy of manufacturers to charge hundreds of dollars for a part that doesn’t actually fit its intended purpose.

Especially when the balancer builder can put TDC wherever he wants to

[Joey120373]

Those innovators west units are sure pretty! Way overkill for anything I’m likely to build.
I have a few chooses now that I feel comfortable with so thanks guys.
Joe

[Rory428]

Cracking balancers is not just an FE thing, had that happen with a stock replacement BBC one once.

I’m inclined to agree with Brent, I would rather spend money on a part that fits.

Seems silly and somewhat lazy of manufacturers to charge hundreds of dollars for a part that doesn’t actually fit its intended purpose.

Especially when the balancer builder can put TDC wherever he wants to

Or especially when the crankshaft builder could use the original FE keyway and key size. I certainly hope that Scat supplies the required crank keys and a notification sheet with the crankshaft, rather than leave that detail up to the customer. Wonder why the thought the FE key setup was no good? Can`t say I have ever heard of any failures with the stock setup. Does this require a different crank timing gear as well?

[Rory428]

And for what it`s worth, I have never seen any good running naturally aspirated Stock,Super stock, Competition Eliminator or Pro Stock engine use any stye damper other than an elastomer style . No Fluid Damper, TCI Rattler, or any other styles. Almost always an ATI. Maybe just my observations, but at least here on the West Coast, the ATI is by far the most popular. Of course for the original posters application thats a moot point as to what high end pro builds use.

[My427stang]

Rory it’s the same dimensions just two of them and easy to find. Whatever your buddy did he tried to make parts fit that weren’t supposed to go in there

Takes no special parts and no special thinking it’s about the easiest thing you could do except you have to do two little keys instead of one and even then you could leave one out and it would work just fine

[blykins]

Wow, someone’s Cheerios got peed in this morning.

We all know you got a bone to pick with Scat, Rory but not sure why you decided to show your hindend today.  Rough day?

[Nightmist66]

Joe, I used the Pioneer SFI version on my build this time. I had heard good things about them and it also looks more like a stock type damper, which is what I wanted. It fit well and timing marks checked spot on. I did put a timing tape on, just because they are so convenient to read and then clear coated a couple layers over it to make sure it doesn't peel. Also, my '68 pulley I decided to use bolted right on without issue

[pumpbldr]

Another one to consider is the SCJ Repop without the hatchet. Big nice unit, degrees perfect and all pulleys work.

Doug aka Pumpbldr

[Joey120373]

Joe, I used the Pioneer SFI version on my build this time. I had heard good things about them and it also looks more like a stock type damper, which is what I wanted. It fit well and timing marks checked spot on. I did put a timing tape on, just because they are so convenient to read and then clear coated a couple layers over it to make sure it doesn't peel. Also, my '68 pulley I decided to use bolted right on without issue.

Thanks, this is the kind of info I was hoping for. There are so many parts available these days, and The prices range from scary cheep to “ sounds reasonable “ yet so many of them are just rebranded offshore junk.
I’m perfectly willing to spend $100+ on a basic stock replacement balancer, so long as I know it’s a quality piece. But if that $100 unit turns out to be the same rebranded turd sold on flea at for $40....
Great comments in this thread and way more that I was expecting.

I’m on my phone at the moment, so swapping web pages and copying links is just too much of a pain, but one of the more recent entries in the dyno section relates a very close call with a faulty balancer.
That was what motivated this thread.
Thanks for the recommendation

[Rory428]

Wow, someone’s Cheerios got peed in this morning.

We all know you got a bone to pick with Scat, Rory but not sure why you decided to show your hindend today.  Rough day?

Not at all, nothing personal against SCAT, I do have a set of their FE rods, just curious why they would make a crank for a FE, and decide to change something that has never been an issue. And if they do not supply the crank key(s), and instructions pointing out the change, why not? I just used the crank as an example that sometimes aftermarket parts need a bit of attention to work, and I really didn`t consider the task of slotting 3 holes and grinding a timing pointer, with tools everybody has in their toolbox, a big deal. At least it doesn`t require an expensive milling machine, as in the case of the TFS head rocker stands, which you consider to be perfectly acceptable.

[blykins]

Wow, someone’s Cheerios got peed in this morning.

We all know you got a bone to pick with Scat, Rory but not sure why you decided to show your hindend today.  Rough day?

Not at all, nothing personal against SCAT, I do have a set of their FE rods, just curious why they would make a crank for a FE, and decide to change something that has never been an issue. And if they do not supply the crank key(s), and instructions pointing out the change, why not? I just used the crank as an example that sometimes aftermarket parts need a bit of attention to work, and I really didn`t consider the task of slotting 3 holes and grinding a timing pointer, with tools everybody has in their toolbox, a big deal. At least it doesn`t require an expensive milling machine, as in the case of the TFS head rocker stands, which you consider to be perfectly acceptable.

Yes, TFS heads require stand modifications, and it varies depending on what rocker you use.   Some guys have bolted on off-the-shelf Harland Sharp adjustable rockers and didn't have to touch anything.  I haven't used that rocker set yet on them, so I can't vouch for that.  But the point is, if there was another identical head that performed the same and had the same quality, that didn't need stand modifications, then maybe I would choose that one.  For 99% of the FE's built on this forum, a Powerbond, a Romac, or an IW balancer would work just fine, are cheaper, and don't require any reworking, other than shooting another coat of clear on the Romac if you choose to.  As a matter of fact, now that I think about it, I'm not totally convinced an ATI is any more special than those.  I've always held them a little higher esteemed based on what I've seen other guys say, but I've had Powerbond and Romac on some pretty high end/high rpm FE's and have never had a problem.   Edited my post to agree that I would never put a Rattler or Fluidampr on anything.

The aftermarket isn't really that special.  Factory parts aren't any better.  My 352's C6AE-R heads were off 2-3cc from head to head on chamber volume.  Factory blocks are sometimes off .020" on deck height from side to side and end to end.  Takes some pretty expensive equipment to fix that, can't do it with hand tools. 

As for the crank keys, still not seeing what all the fuss is about.  I have a parts box mounted to my wall.  When a factory crank comes in, I reach for one little drawer and get a key.  When a Scat crank comes out of the box, I just open up the other little drawer and grab another key.   Do I need an instruction sheet for that?  Forbid that someone gets one that uses BBC rods and sits there all puzzled trying to make an FE rod bearing fit on the journal because they didn't have an instruction sheet.   Sounds like your buddy was a bit ham-fisted and shouldn't be around engine parts.  If the balancer/spacer is going on hard enough to split it, maybe a little bit of experience should have set a signal off in his mind. 

[cjshaker]

Not worth it

[blykins]

Yep, welcome to my world.  About had enough of it.

[frnkeore]

Regarding the Scat, key issue. A first time user of that crank, will know that the rods are BBC, because that's how it's advertised and I don't think ANY 4.25 cranks, have FE rod journals.

Woodruff keys (half moon) keys are made in several different diameters, for the same width key. Unless Scat, spells out what key it takes, not many would appreciate having to take their crank down to the parts store, to find the one that fits.

That's probably the reason that the guy split his dampener, he got the wrong diameter key, that set to high.

https://www.engineersedge.com/woodruff_keys.htm

[blykins]

Regarding the Scat, key issue. A first time user of that crank, will know that the rods are BBC, because that's how it's advertised and I don't think ANY 4.25 cranks, have FE rod journals.

Woodruff keys (half moon) keys are made in several different diameters, for the same width key. Unless Scat, spells out what key it takes, not many would appreciate having to take their crank down to the parts store, to find the one that fits.

That's probably the reason that the guy split his dampener, he got the wrong diameter key, that set to high.

https://www.engineersedge.com/woodruff_keys.htm

Frank, the balancer doesn't even go on the woodruff key. 

For Pete's sake, the balancer keyway is totally different from the timing gear keyway and the balancer keyway on a Scat crank is no different than a factory crank.  If someone whopper-jawed a balancer installation that bad, it wasn't because the key was wrong. 

Y'all understand that, right?  The timing gear keyway and the balancer keyway are 180° from each other on an FE crankshaft.  The balancer key on a Scat is the same as a balancer key on factory.....square key.   Woodruff key for the timing gear and spacer.   

[frnkeore]

I stand corrected, I've never seen a Scat crank.

But, the Woodruff key issue, is still, a issue.

[Nightmist66]

There are so many parts available these days, and The prices range from scary cheep to “ sounds reasonable “ yet so many of them are just rebranded offshore junk.

I forgot to mention that these are made in Australia.

[My427stang]

If someone is confused by the SCAT crank for more than a minute, recovers with the wrong parts, and then hammers the timing gear and spacer on tight enough to split it...they shouldn’t be in there in the first place

I don’t know why they didn’t use an FE key, but I don’t think anyone on this thread would be baffled.

That same person FOR SURE couldn’t find TDC and remark for a different balancer!