Author Topic: 428 versus 460  (Read 14305 times)

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frnkeore

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #60 on: July 31, 2020, 02:40:48 PM »
460 FE will compete with a 460 385.
Frank

blykins

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #61 on: July 31, 2020, 03:24:02 PM »
So whats the point of all this? ::)

Apparently, to showcase a lot of his “opinion” without any experience at all to back it up.

It’s hard to read anything he says without laughing.  I really liked the line about the theoretical TFS heads that flow 390 cfm with a 2.300” valve.

Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
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My427stang

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #62 on: July 31, 2020, 03:45:43 PM »
460 FE will compete with a 460 385.

Not for 10 grand, both FE engines you looked at are well above that price, and a 460 would have some seriously nice parts if using the same budget as those

Concede for once, or at least be accommodating that some of us don’t BS.  You read the original poster’s question incorrectly...it’s no big deal
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blykins

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #63 on: July 31, 2020, 04:08:59 PM »
460 FE will compete with a 460 385.

Not for 10 grand, both FE engines you looked at are well above that price, and a 460 would have some seriously nice parts if using the same budget as those

Concede for once, or at least be accommodating that some of us don’t BS.  You read the original poster’s question incorrectly...it’s no big deal

Correct.  The OP put a $ amount on the builds but did not put a displacement amount on them.   This is just an argument for the sake of arguing....or maybe to save face.
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
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cjshaker

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #64 on: July 31, 2020, 05:09:06 PM »
So whats the point of all this? ::)

To flog a dead horse to the point of being unrecognizable  ::)

Concede for once, or at least be accommodating that some of us don’t BS.  You read the original poster’s question incorrectly...it’s no big deal

Who's giving odds on this? I want in... 8)
Doug Smith


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RJP

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #65 on: July 31, 2020, 05:54:08 PM »
So whats the point of all this? ::)

To flog a dead horse to the point of being unrecognizable  ::)

Concede for once, or at least be accommodating that some of us don’t BS.  You read the original poster’s question incorrectly...it’s no big deal

Who's giving odds on this? I want in... 8)
That horse has been flogged unrecognizable 25 years ago....he must be flogging that horse's great great grandson. ::)

Joe-JDC

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #66 on: July 31, 2020, 06:44:56 PM »
I have a ALL NEW PARTS, EVERY NUT AND BOLT, 460, 650 hp that I will sell for $9000.00  Let's see you build an all new parts FE that makes 650 hp for $9000.00.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

mike7570

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #67 on: August 01, 2020, 12:11:11 AM »
I have a ALL NEW PARTS, EVERY NUT AND BOLT, 460, 650 hp that I will sell for $9000.00  Let's see you build an all new parts FE that makes 650 hp for $9000.00.  Joe-JDC

I’ll defend the FE a little bit. Can I start with the 427TP I purchased for $3,500 manifold to pan?
That leaves me $5,500 for upgrades  ;D
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 12:13:34 AM by mike7570 »

frnkeore

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #68 on: August 01, 2020, 01:18:31 AM »
My own personal feeling are "who wants a 385 when you can have a FE". Cost has never been much of a issue on this forum. I'd sure rather have a FE 460, in my F350. But, then, I'd also have to change out the front springs, to get the nose back down.

If you really don't want to build a FE, Don't. Why not build a 4 cam modular? They are also cheap.  Who's up for that challenge? $10K will get you a long way there, too (the OP said he was open to that). And at least it's a real Ford design!

For those that say the 385 heads were not copied from the BBC, where were you between 1965, when the BBC came out  and 1968, when the 429 cam out? I suppose you think Ford never looked under a 396 or 427, BBC valve cover? They didn't come out in the same year, like the slant block, MEL and 348 did. If so, I wouldn't say that it was copied.

Excuse me, my horse needs mouth to mouth  ;)
Frank

jayb

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #69 on: August 01, 2020, 07:50:23 AM »
I have a ALL NEW PARTS, EVERY NUT AND BOLT, 460, 650 hp that I will sell for $9000.00  Let's see you build an all new parts FE that makes 650 hp for $9000.00.  Joe-JDC

Joe, does that include a new block?  And is that your investment, or what you will sell it for?  Just curious...
Jay Brown
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- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Joe-JDC

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #70 on: August 01, 2020, 08:15:42 AM »
Jay, that is a new Motorsports two bolt main short block, everything new, heads, intake, pan, distributor, valve covers, everything except the carb.   That is what I have invested, that is what I will sell it for plus shipping.  I also have Hooker Super Comp headers for '71 Mustang for this engine that are new in box, and a 1250 Dominator that I would let go for for my cost.  I really haven't tried to sell this, just trying to make a point in the argument above.  I built this for a customer, and they backed out after I rounded up all the parts.  Never build an engine without a sizeable down payment before procuring expensive parts.  I thought the fellow was a good friend.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

blykins

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #71 on: August 01, 2020, 08:20:55 AM »
I would agree with, "Who wants a 385 when you can have an FE?" 

To me, there's no comparison between the looks/appearance and the history between the two engines.   Aside of the Boss 429, the 385 series really doesn't have the iconic history that the FE does. 

However, all emotional feelings aside, the 429/460 will make more horsepower with less investment.

As an aside point, to be honest, I don't think you can build either one of them with all new parts (not counting the blocks as "new" because you don't need new blocks) for $10k.  $10k doesn't go very far these days.   However, with all of that in mind, a 352/390 block is going to be the cheapest route but without going to a 4.375" crank, you're limited at 450 cubes.  With 428 and 427 blocks being so expensive, if you decide to start with one of those, your budget just took a serious hit.  On the other hand, a 460 block is stupid cheap.  You could also reuse the 460 crankshaft. 

Even if you decide to go with an aftermarket block on the 385 series, the BEST block from Eliminator is less than $3000.  That block will support 2500+ hp and is the block I use for my pulling engines. 

Everyone needs to set their "opinions" and emotions to the side and just take things at face value. 

All-in-all, given a set of AFR BBF cylinder heads, I think the 460 (385 series) would be 60-75 hp over the FE with similar cam profiles, similar compression ratios, similar intake manifolds/induction, etc.   And yes, to answer Frank's, question, you absolutely can take advantage of a 400cfm head on the street, as long as the port volume isn't blown out of proportion.   There are very few 385 series cylinder heads out there that move less than 400cfm of air.  Many of the heads from Kaase, TFS, AFR, Profiler, etc., *start* at 400 cfm.  The Profiler heads that I use on my BBF pulling engines flow over 550cfm and there are heads available from Eliminator that flow over 600.

Once a stroker crankshaft is introduced to the 385 engine, then it's no contest whatsoever....not even a remote chance.

« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 08:29:08 AM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
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Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
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e philpott

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #72 on: August 01, 2020, 09:15:28 AM »
FE guy here but a 1970 and 71 Torino 429 SCJ with shaker is a good looking engine IMHO , it saves the 385 series for me

WConley

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #73 on: August 01, 2020, 11:04:47 AM »

For those that say the 385 heads were not copied from the BBC, where were you between 1965, when the BBC came out  and 1968, when the 429 cam out? I suppose you think Ford never looked under a 396 or 427, BBC valve cover? They didn't come out in the same year, like the slant block, MEL and 348 did. If so, I wouldn't say that it was copied.

Excuse me, my horse needs mouth to mouth  ;)

Frank - Are you familiar with the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE)?  Automotive design trends are pretty well documented in SAE papers that everybody can see.  Long before a BBC valve cover existed, there were numerous papers published on canted valve layouts for internal combustion engines.  I have engine design books issued to me when I joined Ford Engineering, that go into great detail on the subject.  The first revision dates on these books go back as far as World War II.

"Advanced" designs are really quite old.  Did you know that the first DOHC 4-valve engine was built by Peugeot in 1912?  The canted valve BBC head was around for a long time before its introduction.  As mentioned above, Chrysler used canted valves for its Polyspherical engine starting in 1958.

No, Ford didn't copy the BBC head for the 385 series.  They certainly knew about the performance and emissions potential of canted valve heads, and made a decision to pursue this well-known technology.
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Tommy-T

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #74 on: August 01, 2020, 11:10:52 AM »
Ok,

So our dry lakes racer was a '70 1/2 Falcon.

The engine was a D1 460 block, stock crank and truck/CJ rods, Speed Pro flat top pistons, Edelbrock Victor heads and intake (no porting on either), DUI distributor, and Holley 950hp carb. It had a Comp roller cam 248@.050 with .648 lift.

It dynoed at Westec 614 horsepower at 6100 rpm.

My point being: Nobody has ever given me a 427 block. Since I built this 460 motor 4 people have given me 429/460's. You could probably duplicate that horsepower with a 427 block and a 428 crank, but not likely with unported Edelbrock heads and a unported Victor FE intake.

The DUI distributor REALLY  helped with the rat look. The DUI unit worked flawlessly during the dyno session and subsequent use.

BTW, it would be extremely naive to think that Ford didn't look the rat motor up 'n down before designing the 385.