428 versus 460

[blykins]

n/m

You just had to read it didn’t you?

Yep.  Sure did.  The issue is that if you're not logged in, it's right there IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE

[hwoods]

so has the gauntlet been thrown down for a $10,000 challenge?  I'm not offering because I don't have an extra $10K, just asking for a friend?

[Dan859]

Wouldn't it be $20,000?  You'd have to build 2 engines and then do the comparison.

[Drew Pojedinec]

No. Interest in a challenge here.

Simple math:
-any stock Fe block can go 445ci
-any 385 block can go 521ci

Heads:
-Fe heads, 300cfm out of the box available
-385 heads, LOL!

It is pretty common knowledge that a cookie cutter FE can hit 500hp with no major magic.
A cookie cutter 385 can hit 650, again with no voodoo.
This isn’t some sorta conjecture, there are literally hundreds of examples that have been built.

We build FEs here because they are FEs. The original question has been addressed. (Actually was so in the first few replies)

[Diogenes]

Also to address your comment that Ford copied the BBC head design...Just because Ford used a "canted" valve arraignment similar to the BB Chevy but thats where the similarity ends. It does not mean they copied it.

Really? Really you believe that?? I can only shake my head in disbelief 

Pyramids were built in ancient Egypt and ancient Central America, I suppose one of them must've copied from the other. Charles Darwin rushed to finish and publish his book on evolution (a book that sat for 10-15 years because he was reluctant to publish because of the implications) because a collegue wrote him about his own similar idea. History is literally full of examples of people working on the same or similar ideas/technology who were never exposed to the other's thought or work. A perfect example is how a shipbuilder in the Great Lakes, Cleveland, Ohio area I believe, had a great idea for an anchor and oddly enough Chevrolet released a similar design anchor and called it a BBC. No one accused them of copying the shipbuilders' anchor design....

[manofmerc]

I have the flow sheet for my AFR 280 heads on my computer table .I@300-256 E158 @400 I 319 E 203 @500 I 357 E 241 @600 I 364 E 257 @ 700 I 360 E 265 These are from an independent shop. I love an fe but 460s are easy and cheaper to build .In reality I would love to have a Fe in my comet drag car but it would cost me to much to change over . With cut back shock towers sparkplugs aren't so hard to change .Neither are headers .What is difficult is with the added length of the engine radiator to fan clearance is tight .Not such an issue with a 390 based build .And while I am at it those AFRs were only A tenth or so quicker than my edelbrock cj heads .Doug

[CV355]

I am disturbed by the lack of "just LS-swap it" jokes in the $10k gauntlet challenge.   

If I recall correctly, the most cubic inches you can get out of a 385 is around ~555-560.  There was a siamesed block being sold that could get you to 672ci, and I thought at one time there was an offering for a 385 block that could get you 805ci.  I can't recall who was working on it, or what the verdict was- this was like 12 years ago.  I had a friend that had a 460 car with dual stage nitrous.  I still don't know how he did it, but he managed to twist two rods about 45 degrees and the engine still ran (made horrible sounds, but it was still running).  I'll see if I can find the pictures of the teardown.

Dollar for dollar, a 385 will cost less (unless we include dirt-cheap BBC builds) than an FE.  Though, the FE we're building is still only about half the cost of the mod motor I had built in 2009.  That damn thing cost a fortune and barely made any power without stupid amounts of boost.

[blykins]

I am disturbed by the lack of "just LS-swap it" jokes in the $10k gauntlet challenge.   

If I recall correctly, the most cubic inches you can get out of a 385 is around ~555-560.  There was a siamesed block being sold that could get you to 672ci, and I thought at one time there was an offering for a 385 block that could get you 805ci.  I can't recall who was working on it, or what the verdict was- this was like 12 years ago.  I had a friend that had a 460 car with dual stage nitrous.  I still don't know how he did it, but he managed to twist two rods about 45 degrees and the engine still ran (made horrible sounds, but it was still running).  I'll see if I can find the pictures of the teardown.

Dollar for dollar, a 385 will cost less (unless we include dirt-cheap BBC builds) than an FE.  Though, the FE we're building is still only about half the cost of the mod motor I had built in 2009.  That damn thing cost a fortune and barely made any power without stupid amounts of boost.

Some of the Eliminator blocks will go to a 4.700" bore size.  You can couple that with a 6" stroke on their tall deck blocks.

The "smallest" 385 series I've ever built was 528ci.  It made 740 hp @ 6000 rpm. 

[Barry_R]

This stuff seems to come around every few months.
The 460 is the better way to make cheap power.
Cheap power also come with awkward packaging in older platforms and a non-vintage "vibe".
Going from an FE to a 460 requires headers, transmission, and a host of other minor modifications to get a working combination.
If you have none of those parts yet anyways, that cost would not be a factor.
I grew up with FEs, so the 460s cosmetics don't appeal to me as much.
The prettiest girl in the bar is worth chasing even if her plain friend is an easier target.....

If you wish to use the EMC as a comparator, I have entered numerous years with the FE, under a wide variety of rules.  As long as cubic inches are limited/factored, and race style heads are not permitted - the FE platform does really well.  I always finished even with or ahead of most of the 429/460 entries (other than Kaase - who is usually in another zip code).  Blair flat out won.  But in the "real world" cubic inches and various aftermarket heads are readily available, and the 460 will win out.

[My427stang]

I am disturbed by the lack of "just LS-swap it" jokes in the $10k gauntlet challenge.   

If I recall correctly, the most cubic inches you can get out of a 385 is around ~555-560.  There was a siamesed block being sold that could get you to 672ci, and I thought at one time there was an offering for a 385 block that could get you 805ci.  I can't recall who was working on it, or what the verdict was- this was like 12 years ago.  I had a friend that had a 460 car with dual stage nitrous.  I still don't know how he did it, but he managed to twist two rods about 45 degrees and the engine still ran (made horrible sounds, but it was still running).  I'll see if I can find the pictures of the teardown.

Dollar for dollar, a 385 will cost less (unless we include dirt-cheap BBC builds) than an FE.  Though, the FE we're building is still only about half the cost of the mod motor I had built in 2009.  That damn thing cost a fortune and barely made any power without stupid amounts of boost.

Recently I have been nudged toward a twin turbo Windsor for my Mustang    If it wasn't such a cost to change everything over, I'd go twin turbo LS and just paint it blue to be fast and silly...however, it will likely end up to be a centrifugal blower on an FE because I am too lazy to change everything over

[blykins]

This stuff seems to come around every few months.
The 460 is the better way to make cheap power.
Cheap power also come with awkward packaging in older platforms and a non-vintage "vibe".
Going from an FE to a 460 requires headers, transmission, and a host of other minor modifications to get a working combination.
If you have none of those parts yet anyways, that cost would not be a factor.
I grew up with FEs, so the 460s cosmetics don't appeal to me as much.
The prettiest girl in the bar is worth chasing even if her plain friend is an easier target.....

If you wish to use the EMC as a comparator, I have entered numerous years with the FE, under a wide variety of rules.  As long as cubic inches are limited/factored, and race style heads are not permitted - the FE platform does really well.  I always finished even with or ahead of most of the 429/460 entries (other than Kaase - who is usually in another zip code).  Blair flat out won.  But in the "real world" cubic inches and various aftermarket heads are readily available, and the 460 will win out.

And the FE is certainly the prettiest girl at the bar.....

[machoneman]

But don't all the gals look prettier at closing time? 

[e philpott]

The pretty girls are gone way before closing time just saying

[Joe-JDC]

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder when it comes to engines.  I have always thought the SBF with Webbers, or Shelby 2x4 with Cobra oil pan was the "cat's meow".  Then there is the Thunderbird 312 with 2x4s, Boss 429s, SOHC 427s...OK, Ford has a lot of good looking engines. Joe-JDC

[RJP]

But don't all the gals look prettier at closing time? 

Yep....they are a 2 @ 10 and a 10 @ 2....AM...."Last call for alcohol!"