Author Topic: 428 versus 460  (Read 14307 times)

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Thumperbird

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428 versus 460
« on: July 25, 2020, 07:08:18 AM »
Just a general question here:

Let's say someone has a $10k budget and picks up a core for cheap, if one were to utilzie that $10k well in terms of maximizing cubes, moderate street cam, intake, aluminum heads, headers, etc., which engine comes out on top torque and HP wise and by how much?

In other words why would you or would you not build a 460 for a non-origianl application where either engine is an easy install?

Thanks.

My427stang

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2020, 07:31:51 AM »
If we are talking 385 series 460, the 10K budget would likely get you much farther.  Rotating assembly is cheaper and most if not all 429/460 factory heads flow as much as an Edelbrock. 

The 460 will be heavier no matter what, but I think it would be hard for a dollar for dollar 428 to keep up with a 460 (given proper parts choice and equal spending)

I love FEs, and didn't want a heavy engine in my Mustang, but in hindsight, the F100 was a natural for a big inch Lima and would have made even more power.  In the end though, had lots of FE stuff laying around and no 460 stuff LOL
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- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2020, 08:23:31 AM »
Any 460 block can become a 521, and there is a serious high flow cylinder head selection for the 460 based engines.

No one says “I want to build the most power, I should start with an FE.”

Joe-JDC

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2020, 11:01:47 AM »
A 460 will be 150 hp ahead of any FE with same amount of money applied.  I have a Motorsports 460 stock shortblock 11:5, with Motorsports aluminum heads that is complete oil pan to distributor with Victor, MSD, etc.  650 hp.  No way to build a new FE for what I have in that all new 460 cubic inch engine.  If I had wanted to start fresh with a 429 SCJ block and stroker, I could have built 557 CI for nearly the same amount, and made 800 hp.  $10K with smart shopping can buy a lot of good parts and machine work when working with a 460 base engine.   Joe-JDC
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Tommy-T

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2020, 12:18:03 PM »
On topic to the original post, the 429-460 motor is huge compared to an FE. Significantly heavier too. But it's Big Block Chevy like architecture allows a much higher horsepower potential. I call it the blue rat.

The FE motor has pedigree and that's why most of us here mess with it. 427's are cool, and with 4.25 cranks readily available 500 horsepower is no problem even with mild cam profiles and a 390 block. That's more power than the vintage cars that came with FE motors can handle without significant modifications. 

frnkeore

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2020, 03:21:14 PM »
If you limit the build to ~460 CI (.030 over 428 x 4.25 crank/462), I think you can have similar or even more HP. That statement is based on how well FE's have done in the EMC competition, using stock heads as a base. Add in TF, ported  heads (or Jays) and the best of intakes and it may even keep up with aftermarket 385 heads, to a CI point.

The FE was and still is, the only BBF to me. Other than drag racing there no real competition for BB's so, for me, regarding racing, weight to HP will get you there faster at less than Pro level. I'm not a fan of large CI, high HP cars on the road, you just can't use what you have, until you get to a track and then the light weight car, with 60 less CI, will blow you off at the track.
Frank

RJP

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2020, 03:28:34 PM »
The 385 series engine is about the same width as a FE. The big difference is in length due in part to the 4.90" bore center block. When I did a FE to 385 swap in my 60 Starliner I had to move the radiator forward about 1.5" As for torque/power the 385 is head & shoulders above the FE. With that said I am a die hard FE freak but I'm also practical. I needed a bullet proof reliable engine that doesn't cost a bizillon dollars to build, make plenty of hp and even if it did eat itself I'm not out a rare sideoiler block and perhaps some unobtainium heads. The 385 is cheap and easy to build with very few quirks unlike the FE. No oiling "tricks" no valve train problems, no issues turning the engine 7500+ rpms. Just bolt it together using decent parts as IMO the only questionable part in the engine is the rods, although I, personally have never had a rod problem. Some say they are prone to breakage mid beam, as said I've never had any problems. 385s are still plentiful and can be had for next to nothing or in some cases free. The last 4 that came to me were in fact free...just go pick it up and get it out of some guy's garage as he is tired of tripping over it or the wife can't get to the washing machine. I run 385 engines in 2 of my V-drive flatbottom boats that are routinely spun 7K+ rpms and if something tragic happens I'm not out mega bucks to replace it. To me thats a win-win.

Joe-JDC

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2020, 04:22:21 PM »
If you limit the build to ~460 CI (.030 over 428 x 4.25 crank/462), I think you can have similar or even more HP. That statement is based on how well FE's have done in the EMC competition, using stock heads as a base. Add in TF, ported  heads (or Jays) and the best of intakes and it may even keep up with aftermarket 385 heads, to a CI point.

Sorry to disagree with you.  The FE is one of the hardest engines to get to make horsepower that is out there in a horespower to cubic inch build.  I have ported literally hundreds of Ford heads over the last 48 years, and the FE is the absolutely hardest to get real air flow out of.  A stock oval port 460 head will outperform just about any FE head on the market today with a good porting.  A CJ or SCJ head will definitely outflow the FE even with the supposedly poor exhaust port.  I would gladly accept your challenge to build a 462 FE with iron heads, and let me build my 460 +.030 and see just who will come out on top.  The point is, though, with a 4.250 stroke, the 460 becomes a 514 cubic inch engine with just a .030" overbore.  The 460 can take a 4.500 stroke and come up with 545 CI, and if you go to the 4.440" bore, 557 CI.  If you want to talk aftermarket, then the 460 jumps into another category above the FE with heads avaliable.  No brainer IMO.  Joe-JDC
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frnkeore

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2020, 06:25:19 PM »
Hi Joe,
What I am talking about, is based on the EMC engines that both Kaase and Blair built for that competition and based on a ~460 CI max size, as that is what the OP is talking about, with his 428.

I believe Blair's almost 600 HP out of a little less than 400 CI, beat all comers, including the BBC heads that Ford copied for the 429/460, 385. Is that correct?

I'm talking with a head porter, right now that tells me, that even though the stock FE's ex port is bad, the 460's is worse and flows not much more than a SBF. It was hard to believe, with the 460's much larger ex valve but, that's what his flow bench showed.

To my other point, what do you do, with a 545/557 engine, on the street, rather than have bragging rights for the biggest engine? That power can't be used for more than about 3 seconds and there, the car with the best traction will win, with street tires. Not easy to get a street tire to hook up in a 3500 lb car with over 700 HP. I would bet on a SBF 427 Cobra for that. It might be close but, that would be my bet.

Those are just my opinions but, HP/weight, will win in at least the first 2/3 to 3/4 of the 1/4 mi and it takes a hell of a lot of HP to over come that.

A drag racing example:
550 hp 332 in a 2200 lb Falcon = 4 lb per HP

800 HP 557 in a 3500 lb Mustang or Fairlane = 4.375 lb per hp.

The Mustang may come on stronger at the end but, which will win?

Frontal area comes in to play, on the top end, too. The Falcon has less of it.

The 306 that I'm building at ~500 hp, setting in a 1300 lb car gives 2.6 lb per hp, how would the 800 hp/3500 lb car, do against that?

My biggest point is, I guess, is what good is that 800 hp on the street, even if you can get past the next gas pump?

Frank

frnkeore

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2020, 06:42:44 PM »
I just went back and re-read the OP and underlined the part that's important, to him:

Quote
moderate street cam, intake, aluminum heads, headers, etc., which engine comes out on top torque and HP wise and by how much?

Will a 400 cfm 385 head, help this build? How much head flow do you need for this type of build? Will lower end torque be important to his build?
Frank

67xr7cat

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2020, 09:02:03 PM »
Replying the OP question only reason to go FE over a 385

Weight - 385 is heavier
Size - 385 is longer, slightly taller, and wider.  It just does not fit well in some places like a 67-70 Mustang/Cougar. I had a 460 in one and would not recommend it except for drag race only car.
Nostalgia - FE is full of it and also has some period correct old timey intakes and valve covers that don't exist in the 385 world

The FE looses to the SB/Cleveland when comes to size and weight

The FE looses to the 385 when comes to making HP.

A 385 has a 4.36" bore stock and any block will hand 700hp. Heads stock intake flow around 280, exh about 130, but not hard to get them up to 180 or so. Reality is intake flow more important make power. A 500 hp 460 not hard to do with factory heads and block. D0OE-R CJ heads have made upwards of 900 hp which puts it as one of the most capable of factory heads. I have a set of CJ heads that flow 370 on the intake and it does not really take much to get them there. Of course are a lot of good aftermarket heads available today.  Cost no more than for a FE . Main down fall over the years really have been the intake manifolds. There are some good ones today, but a lot of the older stuff needs work. I'd say the victor was the 1st good intake.

Stroker cranks for the most part just drop in. A 547ci just requires a 4.5" stroker and a .030" overbore.  There have been bigger using a 4.75" stroker and a 4.5" bore (very few stock blocks will bore this size, but it has been done) that is 605 ci.  Aftermarket blocks can go to a 4.7" bore for 660 ci so the 385 series are easy cubic inches.

475fetoploader

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2020, 12:31:11 AM »
I think if you’re not building an f.e. because you think they’re cool, than just build a 460. I’m putting a fairly expensive sideoiler together. Because I love them, because my dad raced one, because of nostalgia. When I was just wanting to go fast, I built a big block chevy. If you just want to go fast, and a 460 will fit, I’d put a big block chevy in it, and not bother with a 460. This is my personal take.
1967  Fairlane Tunnel Wedge on Proports.
1975 4x4 461 f.e. 4speed Dual Quads on 38’s
Love many, Trust few. Always paddle your own canoe.

Rory428

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2020, 03:44:09 AM »
A  460 based engine is a logical choice for a large Ford engine with good power. That said, I guess I must be a logical person. For my type of racing, I know several guys with 460 based engines, and with a similar build, (stock block, crank, heads, flat tappet cam etc) my 428s and 427 run at least as well as the majority of these mildish builds. For a well over 500 cube engine with lots of aftermarket parts, looking for big power (750+ HP), a 460 based platform make sense, but again, since thats not what I am after, my FEs have served me well for many years. And being a purist, putting a non Ford engine in a Ford vehicle ain`t ever gonna happen. I guess I like to swim upstream, even when it comes to small block Fords, my 331 flat tappet pump gas SBF holds its head up fairly well with the majority of 351W based engines at the local dragstrips. 351W and 460s seem to be by far the most common engine choices for local Ford racers, so do automatics. I guess some of us don`t tend to take the easy or most popular route. The FE engine has a rich racing history that the 351W and 460 never had and never will. Logical Not at all, and with guys like Jay, Blair, Barry et all, and events like the FERR, I am just fine being an "oddball" FE guy.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

frnkeore

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2020, 10:50:47 AM »
Where is that like button  8)
Frank

blykins

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2020, 11:10:33 AM »
BBF will make more power.   Not even a contest. 

Brent Lykins
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frnkeore

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2020, 11:29:52 AM »
Brent,
I then have to ask, why didn't a BBC win the last EMC contest? They weren't even close, with Kaase at the helm and a 289 was second. Kind makes you wonder, especially with what the OP's wants ???
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 11:32:05 AM by frnkeore »
Frank

blykins

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2020, 11:43:51 AM »
Brent,
I then have to ask, why didn't a BBC win the last EMC contest? They weren't even close, with Kaase at the helm and a 289 was second. Kind makes you wonder, especially with what the OP's wants ???

You can't base a general statement on one engine contest.  How many BBF's were entered?  Hot Rod doesn't advertise their data very well.  I'm seeing one BBF.  Just because only one BBF was entered and it didn't win, certainly doesn't mean that a BBF is not superior to other engine families.  I'm also having trouble figuring out what a BBC has to do with any of this???????

If we're basing all of this on the OP's "wants", he mentioned aluminum heads.   It's all over with when you get the aftermarket involved. 

In order to make big streetable horsepower, you need cubic inches and head flow.  If we're discussing factory blocks, the biggest you can make an FE is around 500 cubic inches with off the shelf parts, using a 427 block and a 4.375" crank, if you find one.  A 460 block will go to 558-560 cubes easily. 

As far as cylinder heads, most FE heads that you can buy off the shelf from a catalog will be limited to about 330-340 cfm.   You can buy one of Kaase's P51 heads that pushes 400 cfm, or an AFR head that flows over that. 

I'm as big of an FE fan as anyone here and they make up about 95% of my business.   However, even then, I'm not too blind to believe that any other Ford engine family won't have more capability to make horsepower.  The last 445 FE I built made 536 hp @ 5500 with 575 lb-ft of torque.  The last 418 Windsor I built made 540 hp @ 5500 and 575 lb-ft of torque. 

« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 12:32:06 PM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
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frnkeore

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2020, 12:44:09 PM »
Here we go again, Brent. I post something and you try to prove me wrong. Regarding your BBC comment, are you trying to tell me that you don't know that they are canted valve head, just like the BBF and have the same advantages? Ford copied the BBC heads for both the 302/351C and the 429/460. That is one of the reason I don't like them.

Are you trying to tell me that there isn't enough HP in the FE head, to handle a mild 460 engine? Blaire has shown us, that there is 1.5 hp per CI in a C6 head. Do we need more than that for a mild build? Mummert showed us that there is nearly that same amount in a 1.91 x 1.53 valve, 295/289 (again a old C6 head). Nether of those are all out engines!

If the OP upgrades to a TF, 332 cfm head, how much more HP and especially torque, will a 400 cfm 385 head give him at 5800, with 460 CI?

You know the answers to those questions and would promote a FE, if I hadn't posted.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 12:47:53 PM by frnkeore »
Frank

RJP

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2020, 12:44:38 PM »
Hi Joe,
What I am talking about, is based on the EMC engines that both Kaase and Blair built for that competition and based on a ~460 CI max size, as that is what the OP is talking about, with his 428.

I believe Blair's almost 600 HP out of a little less than 400 CI, beat all comers, including the BBC heads that Ford copied for the 429/460, 385. Is that correct?

I'm talking with a head porter, right now that tells me, that even though the stock FE's ex port is bad, the 460's is worse and flows not much more than a SBF. It was hard to believe, with the 460's much larger ex valve but, that's what his flow bench showed.

To my other point, what do you do, with a 545/557 engine, on the street, rather than have bragging rights for the biggest engine? That power can't be used for more than about 3 seconds and there, the car with the best traction will win, with street tires. Not easy to get a street tire to hook up in a 3500 lb car with over 700 HP. I would bet on a SBF 427 Cobra for that. It might be close but, that would be my bet.

Those are just my opinions but, HP/weight, will win in at least the first 2/3 to 3/4 of the 1/4 mi and it takes a hell of a lot of HP to over come that.

A drag racing example:
550 hp 332 in a 2200 lb Falcon = 4 lb per HP

800 HP 557 in a 3500 lb Mustang or Fairlane = 4.375 lb per hp.

The Mustang may come on stronger at the end but, which will win?

Frontal area comes in to play, on the top end, too. The Falcon has less of it.

The 306 that I'm building at ~500 hp, setting in a 1300 lb car gives 2.6 lb per hp, how would the 800 hp/3500 lb car, do against that?

My biggest point is, I guess, is what good is that 800 hp on the street, even if you can get past the next gas pump?
The OP asked about horsepower/torque and what would be an easier way to accomplish just that...No mention of fuel mileage, vehicle weight, frontal area, traction, etc. What good is 800 HP you ask? So maybe a mere 700HP is fine and acceptable but not 800? Begs the question...Why are you here on this forum? Not everyone builds a 1300lb car nor do they want to. Some of us build large sedans, station-wagons, heavy trucks or in my case fast boats as well as my large, heavy cars that are driven on the streets and highways. Also to address your comment that Ford copied the BBC head design...Just because Ford used a "canted" valve arraignment similar to the BB Chevy but thats where the similarity ends. It does not mean they copied it. If you want to split hairs then it can be said that Chevy copied the Chrysler's "Poly angle" head used on the early 318" engines going back to the mid 50s. You build your cars anyway you want to but don't criticize, critique or question what others build. Not everyone lives in your world.

blykins

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2020, 12:50:52 PM »
Does this forum have an ignore option?
Brent Lykins
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My427stang

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2020, 01:01:54 PM »
If you limit the build to ~460 CI (.030 over 428 x 4.25 crank/462), I think you can have similar or even more HP. That statement is based on how well FE's have done in the EMC competition, using stock heads as a base. Add in TF, ported  heads (or Jays) and the best of intakes and it may even keep up with aftermarket 385 heads, to a CI point.

The FE was and still is, the only BBF to me. Other than drag racing there no real competition for BB's so, for me, regarding racing, weight to HP will get you there faster at less than Pro level. I'm not a fan of large CI, high HP cars on the road, you just can't use what you have, until you get to a track and then the light weight car, with 60 less CI, will blow you off at the track.

He didn't say "same cid" he said, $10K in either engine with good core selection.

Using that logic and applying it to your cubic inch match.  10K in a stock crank 460, will go a lot farther than in a stroked 428, and with more parts selection. 

Yes, it sucks, I love FEs too, but using your own advice to answer the OP's question, a good early 460 with an intake and cam is already making a 428 play severe catch up
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2020, 01:03:13 PM »
Does this forum have an ignore option?

It does, but unfortunately you still see the person wrote something and you have the option of clicking a button to read the reply.
My curiosity gets me every time, so it isn’t a good ignore button sadly.

Shame to be honest.

frnkeore

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2020, 01:25:55 PM »
Quote
Also to address your comment that Ford copied the BBC head design...Just because Ford used a "canted" valve arraignment similar to the BB Chevy but thats where the similarity ends. It does not mean they copied it.

Really? Really you believe that?? I can only shake my head in disbelief  :o

Regardless of the car, all other things equal, a car with a better hp to weight, will win. That's just the facts.

I'm NOT criticizing anyone's car! To each, his own! I personally like cars that go fast in a straight line and around curves, easier to do in a light car. I've had my share of big cars and medium size, too. '58 Edsel, '60 Galaxy, '65 2+2 Mustang and '64 Fairlane. I liked them all but, my best money spent and most fun I had, was  on a 200 hp 4 cyl, 1000 lb car. If that car broke at the track (and it did a few times), I had a trailer to bring it home.

I wasn't aware that this forum was only about big cars, I joined it because it was about the FE engine, the only BBF for me.
Frank

RJP

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2020, 01:55:52 PM »
Shake your head all you want, all your going to do is give yourself a headache...GM/Chevy did not invent the canted valve arraignment. I'm sure if you look hard enough you can find a 2 plane valve arraignment going back to the 20th century teens/early 20s but I'm not going to do your homework for you. This forum is about ALL FE powered cars, trucks, boats, etc [Not just the lightweight ones] but the OP asked about using another FORD engine family that I'd like to think he got the most accurate answer possible. And as I've said in a previous post I am a diehard Ford fan with my main focus on FE's and 385 engines. To me if it is Ford I like it...Chevy...not so much. Its perfectly fine with me if the FE is the only big block for you...I dare say others are a bit more broad minded than you.     

blykins

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2020, 02:02:22 PM »
Does this forum have an ignore option?

It does, but unfortunately you still see the person wrote something and you have the option of clicking a button to read the reply.
My curiosity gets me every time, so it isn’t a good ignore button sadly.

Shame to be honest.

I'm looking, where is it?  I need some relief.

EDIT....Never mind, found it. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
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502-759-1431
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Joe-JDC

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2020, 02:13:08 PM »
Frank, it seems you have to argue with everyone who disagrees with your answers.  I did go to EMC, have been in several, and was there to witness Blair's win.  Not to take anything away from Blair's build, but the win was one sparkplug away from second place.  I personally helped dyno test the 2nd place 289 after the EMC challenge to find why it had a stubborn miss and was not pulling cleanly on each pull.  They changed the plugs before the competition and never had a chance to test after the plug change.  During the challenge they ASSUMED the plugs were all good, and one wasn't.  We found the bad plug on dyno testing, and after installing a fresh plug, that little 289 pulled cleanly to 7300 rpm on several pulls.  Made 479 hp and if it had made those pulls cleanly at EMC, it would have come out on top.  Just the facts.  Some days you win, some days you lose.  I like the FE, but I am not going to say it is the best Ford engine since I have owned most of the variations of them since 1962 and built and raced them since 1969.  I stand by my statement that with 10K, the 460 will run away from the FE in power production.  Joe-JDC
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frnkeore

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2020, 03:11:22 PM »
Joe,
Thanks for the update on Mummert's engine. I had read that he had ignition problems but, thought he had improved it before the test. I'm extremely glad that to hear that he would have won. It actually helps my case that you don't need canted valves to make better HP. I think Kaase may be going with maybe a 260? At the next competition. A 5 bolt block, at least. Not sure on that, we'll have to see.

Joe, these are my opinions, based on open competition (all comers) but, not all out, max HP effort (something streetable) and what you might expect from a 460 ci engine, as that's about all you can get from a 428 block. Everyone gets one, don't they or am I excluded? If it's max HP then we would have to be talking about 4 valve engines, would we not. Ford makes those, too. How many would care to compete with that 8 second, 338 ci, 4V that was recently posted? A answer like.......Why bother with either engine when the 4v modular engine is available, cheap.

I cop to me being opinionated but, so are 98% of the people that post on this forum.
Frank

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2020, 04:15:05 PM »
n/m
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 04:22:21 PM by blykins »
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Drew Pojedinec

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2020, 04:31:45 PM »
n/m

You just had to read it didn’t you?



frnkeore

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2020, 04:33:02 PM »
 ;D  :-X
Frank

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2020, 04:43:38 PM »
n/m

You just had to read it didn’t you?

Yep.  Sure did.  The issue is that if you're not logged in, it's right there IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE
Brent Lykins
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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2020, 08:36:17 PM »
so has the gauntlet been thrown down for a $10,000 challenge?  I'm not offering because I don't have an extra $10K, just asking for a friend?
it is hard to balance your check book with your testoserone level
Previous FE Cars:   1965 Ford Galaxie 390/4spd then upgraded to 427 sideoiler
1970 Maverick 427 sideoiler.  X Pro Stock Car
Current build in progress 1964 Thunderbolt Clone

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2020, 09:07:18 PM »
Wouldn't it be $20,000?  You'd have to build 2 engines and then do the comparison.

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2020, 09:50:08 PM »
No. Interest in a challenge here.

Simple math:
-any stock Fe block can go 445ci
-any 385 block can go 521ci

Heads:
-Fe heads, 300cfm out of the box available
-385 heads, LOL!

It is pretty common knowledge that a cookie cutter FE can hit 500hp with no major magic.
A cookie cutter 385 can hit 650, again with no voodoo.
This isn’t some sorta conjecture, there are literally hundreds of examples that have been built.

We build FEs here because they are FEs. The original question has been addressed. (Actually was so in the first few replies)

Diogenes

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2020, 12:07:07 AM »
Quote
Also to address your comment that Ford copied the BBC head design...Just because Ford used a "canted" valve arraignment similar to the BB Chevy but thats where the similarity ends. It does not mean they copied it.

Really? Really you believe that?? I can only shake my head in disbelief  :o

Pyramids were built in ancient Egypt and ancient Central America, I suppose one of them must've copied from the other. Charles Darwin rushed to finish and publish his book on evolution (a book that sat for 10-15 years because he was reluctant to publish because of the implications) because a collegue wrote him about his own similar idea. History is literally full of examples of people working on the same or similar ideas/technology who were never exposed to the other's thought or work. A perfect example is how a shipbuilder in the Great Lakes, Cleveland, Ohio area I believe, had a great idea for an anchor and oddly enough Chevrolet released a similar design anchor and called it a BBC. No one accused them of copying the shipbuilders' anchor design.... 8)
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 12:10:12 AM by Diogenes »
WHEN CRIMINALS MAKE THE LAWS, OBEYING THE LAW IS A CRIME.

1966 Galaxie 500 390 Toploader 3.89 Traction-Lock 9in.
1985 Toyota Celica Supra
1971 Montego MX wagon 351C Toploader Detroit Locker Cyclone competition gauge/dash bucket seats/console
1989 Texas DPS Police Mustang
1971 Torino GT 351C 4V AT
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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2020, 03:44:05 AM »
I have the flow sheet for my AFR 280 heads on my computer table .I@300-256 E158 @400 I 319 E 203 @500 I 357 E 241 @600 I 364 E 257 @ 700 I 360 E 265 These are from an independent shop. I love an fe but 460s are easy and cheaper to build .In reality I would love to have a Fe in my comet drag car but it would cost me to much to change over . With cut back shock towers sparkplugs aren't so hard to change .Neither are headers .What is difficult is with the added length of the engine radiator to fan clearance is tight .Not such an issue with a 390 based build .And while I am at it those AFRs were only A tenth or so quicker than my edelbrock cj heads .Doug

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2020, 07:53:32 AM »
I am disturbed by the lack of "just LS-swap it" jokes in the $10k gauntlet challenge.   ;D

If I recall correctly, the most cubic inches you can get out of a 385 is around ~555-560.  There was a siamesed block being sold that could get you to 672ci, and I thought at one time there was an offering for a 385 block that could get you 805ci.  I can't recall who was working on it, or what the verdict was- this was like 12 years ago.  I had a friend that had a 460 car with dual stage nitrous.  I still don't know how he did it, but he managed to twist two rods about 45 degrees and the engine still ran (made horrible sounds, but it was still running).  I'll see if I can find the pictures of the teardown.

Dollar for dollar, a 385 will cost less (unless we include dirt-cheap BBC builds) than an FE.  Though, the FE we're building is still only about half the cost of the mod motor I had built in 2009.  That damn thing cost a fortune and barely made any power without stupid amounts of boost.

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2020, 07:56:49 AM »
I am disturbed by the lack of "just LS-swap it" jokes in the $10k gauntlet challenge.   ;D

If I recall correctly, the most cubic inches you can get out of a 385 is around ~555-560.  There was a siamesed block being sold that could get you to 672ci, and I thought at one time there was an offering for a 385 block that could get you 805ci.  I can't recall who was working on it, or what the verdict was- this was like 12 years ago.  I had a friend that had a 460 car with dual stage nitrous.  I still don't know how he did it, but he managed to twist two rods about 45 degrees and the engine still ran (made horrible sounds, but it was still running).  I'll see if I can find the pictures of the teardown.

Dollar for dollar, a 385 will cost less (unless we include dirt-cheap BBC builds) than an FE.  Though, the FE we're building is still only about half the cost of the mod motor I had built in 2009.  That damn thing cost a fortune and barely made any power without stupid amounts of boost.

Some of the Eliminator blocks will go to a 4.700" bore size.  You can couple that with a 6" stroke on their tall deck blocks.

The "smallest" 385 series I've ever built was 528ci.  It made 740 hp @ 6000 rpm. 
Brent Lykins
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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2020, 08:18:36 AM »
This stuff seems to come around every few months.
The 460 is the better way to make cheap power.
Cheap power also come with awkward packaging in older platforms and a non-vintage "vibe".
Going from an FE to a 460 requires headers, transmission, and a host of other minor modifications to get a working combination.
If you have none of those parts yet anyways, that cost would not be a factor.
I grew up with FEs, so the 460s cosmetics don't appeal to me as much.
The prettiest girl in the bar is worth chasing even if her plain friend is an easier target.....

If you wish to use the EMC as a comparator, I have entered numerous years with the FE, under a wide variety of rules.  As long as cubic inches are limited/factored, and race style heads are not permitted - the FE platform does really well.  I always finished even with or ahead of most of the 429/460 entries (other than Kaase - who is usually in another zip code).  Blair flat out won.  But in the "real world" cubic inches and various aftermarket heads are readily available, and the 460 will win out.

My427stang

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2020, 08:21:40 AM »
I am disturbed by the lack of "just LS-swap it" jokes in the $10k gauntlet challenge.   ;D

If I recall correctly, the most cubic inches you can get out of a 385 is around ~555-560.  There was a siamesed block being sold that could get you to 672ci, and I thought at one time there was an offering for a 385 block that could get you 805ci.  I can't recall who was working on it, or what the verdict was- this was like 12 years ago.  I had a friend that had a 460 car with dual stage nitrous.  I still don't know how he did it, but he managed to twist two rods about 45 degrees and the engine still ran (made horrible sounds, but it was still running).  I'll see if I can find the pictures of the teardown.

Dollar for dollar, a 385 will cost less (unless we include dirt-cheap BBC builds) than an FE.  Though, the FE we're building is still only about half the cost of the mod motor I had built in 2009.  That damn thing cost a fortune and barely made any power without stupid amounts of boost.

Recently I have been nudged toward a twin turbo Windsor for my Mustang  ::)  If it wasn't such a cost to change everything over, I'd go twin turbo LS and just paint it blue to be fast and silly...however, it will likely end up to be a centrifugal blower on an FE because I am too lazy to change everything over
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- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

blykins

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2020, 08:25:24 AM »
This stuff seems to come around every few months.
The 460 is the better way to make cheap power.
Cheap power also come with awkward packaging in older platforms and a non-vintage "vibe".
Going from an FE to a 460 requires headers, transmission, and a host of other minor modifications to get a working combination.
If you have none of those parts yet anyways, that cost would not be a factor.
I grew up with FEs, so the 460s cosmetics don't appeal to me as much.
The prettiest girl in the bar is worth chasing even if her plain friend is an easier target.....

If you wish to use the EMC as a comparator, I have entered numerous years with the FE, under a wide variety of rules.  As long as cubic inches are limited/factored, and race style heads are not permitted - the FE platform does really well.  I always finished even with or ahead of most of the 429/460 entries (other than Kaase - who is usually in another zip code).  Blair flat out won.  But in the "real world" cubic inches and various aftermarket heads are readily available, and the 460 will win out.

And the FE is certainly the prettiest girl at the bar.....
Brent Lykins
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machoneman

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2020, 09:22:00 AM »
But don't all the gals look prettier at closing time?  ::)
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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2020, 10:12:23 AM »
The pretty girls are gone way before closing time :) just saying

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2020, 11:11:03 AM »
I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder when it comes to engines.  I have always thought the SBF with Webbers, or Shelby 2x4 with Cobra oil pan was the "cat's meow".  Then there is the Thunderbird 312 with 2x4s, Boss 429s, SOHC 427s...OK, Ford has a lot of good looking engines. Joe-JDC
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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2020, 11:14:55 AM »
But don't all the gals look prettier at closing time?  ::)
Yep....they are a 2 @ 10 and a 10 @ 2....AM...."Last call for alcohol!"

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #45 on: July 27, 2020, 01:13:33 PM »
I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder when it comes to engines.  I have always thought the SBF with Webbers, or Shelby 2x4 with Cobra oil pan was the "cat's meow".  Then there is the Thunderbird 312 with 2x4s, Boss 429s, SOHC 427s...OK, Ford has a lot of good looking engines. Joe-JDC
Well, Joe, We may not agree on a lot of things but, this is the exception. 312 not so much but, I would add the 317-368 Linc Y-block. The 368 with those beautiful aluminum valve covers.
Frank

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #46 on: July 27, 2020, 02:23:44 PM »
  Today it is easy to build a 1.2hp/ci "anything" that can be run on the street with pump gas.  So 408W =480 , 462FE=554 475FE= 570, 521(460)=625. I have a 480 hp 408W and am replacing it with a 600+hp 521. With VERY careful buying, I have right at $4,000 in the 521 , including aluminum early CJ heads and dual four barrels. I couldn't do that with an FE for the same cost and run on pump gas. I had a very nice 427MR with Shelby heads I was going to use but sold it because the "value" was over double the "cost" of this 521. FE's ARE one of my favorite engines but they need modern cylinder head technology (getting away form original design like Jays) to really wake them up. Just this old guys opinion.
     Randy

frnkeore

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2020, 04:38:31 PM »
Another rule of thumb for engines, is twice the hp, of the max cfm flow. Putting the FE, in the at least the 780 hp range (ported TF heads), depending on rpm.

I'm a logical person and the topic of this discussion is " 428 versus 460", now if the OP was not aware that you can get more hp, with more ci, I would be very surprised. Was this just a redundant heading? I don't know, because the answer, to the title, is in the title. 32 more ci, will produce more hp and 547 ci, will produce more hp than 462 ci. Does he not know that?

Unless the question was redundant, you could logically assume, he was talking about the same ci maximum, 428 (462) vs standard 460 ci. If the question wasn't redundant, then both engines would have to be limited to ~460 ci.

PS
The OP hasn't said anything in this conversation. It would be nice if he could tell us if his title, was indeed redundant.

Another other requirement was  "moderate street cam", I think the EMC competitions, fall into that territory.

With the above said, again unless it was a redundant title, a 400+ cfm head, would not help a "moderate street cam" 460. That was my whole idea behind my answers.

I could go on about the weight to hp aspect of a 460 ci car but, I'll end it there.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 04:40:27 PM by frnkeore »
Frank

My427stang

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2020, 04:58:10 PM »
Just a general question here:

Let's say someone has a $10k budget and picks up a core for cheap, if one were to utilzie that $10k well in terms of maximizing cubes, moderate street cam, intake, aluminum heads, headers, etc., which engine comes out on top torque and HP wise and by how much?

In other words why would you or would you not build a 460 for a non-origianl application where either engine is an easy install?

Thanks.



I'm a logical person and the topic of this discussion is " 428 versus 460", now if the OP was not aware that you can get more hp, with more ci, I would be very surprised. Was this just a redundant heading? I don't know, because the answer, to the title, is in the title. 32 more ci, will produce more hp and 547 ci, will produce more hp than 462 ci. Does he not know that?

Unless the question was redundant, you could logically assume, he was talking about the same ci maximum, 428 (462) vs standard 460 ci. If the question wasn't redundant, then both engines would have to be limited to ~460 ci.

PS
The OP hasn't said anything in this conversation. It would be nice if he could tell us if his title, was indeed redundant.

Another other requirement was  "moderate street cam", I think the EMC competitions, fall into that territory.

With the above said, again unless it was a redundant title, a 400+ cfm head, would not help a "moderate street cam" 460. That was my whole idea behind my answers.

I could go on about the weight to hp aspect of a 460 ci car but, I'll end it there.

Frank, he said "10 grand spent"   Assuming you could get a 428 core for the same price as a 460 core, which is no way...unless you are lucky Turbohunter.....and then you spent the remainder of the 10 grand on each, the 460 would either be bigger, better or if you indeed want to hobble it with cubes, similar while leaving thousands in the owner's pocket.  Almost every single part is DRAMATICALLY cheaper and has more options.  It is what it is

Honestly, one of my toys is a 70 Mustang with a 489 EFI FE, looks like a Boss 9, I am considering a new engine, and if you didn't count the parts I have, I could likely build a seriously stout BIG Boss 9 for the price of another FE stroker, and if I went standard style heads, holy cow.  However, I just don't want the weight on the nose of my Mustang, but it's hard to ignore

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Ross
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- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

frnkeore

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2020, 05:25:14 PM »
This is also in his post, and a question that he asks:

Quote
In other words why would you or would you not build a 460 for a non-origianl application where either engine is an easy install?

It is a open question.

So, then my answer to it is:

If you limited the build to 460 ci.
Frank

chilly460

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2020, 05:28:53 PM »
Anyone ever compared weight of aluminum topend builds, like most decent street builds would be?  I know an FE block is 195-200, and believe a 460 is 230ish.   Iron 460 heads are tanks but go to aluminum and the difference in weight of the topends wouldn’t seem to be that different.   Stroker cranks with bbc rods would likely be similar, no?  Rods are same length, pistons a bit more.  So what, 50-60lbs more in the 460 combo?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 05:31:50 PM by chilly460 »

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2020, 05:39:27 PM »
With a $10k budget, I can’t think of any logical reason why anyone would build a stock displacement combo, FE or 385.  You’re going to put pistons in any rebuild anyway, rods are so cheap now you’re looking at $200 difference to upgrade to a Scat vs rebuilding stockers with ARP bolts, and by the time you get a crank polished same deal, call it $300-400 max to upgrade the crank.  So, you’d be talking 462 vs 557ci. Good shopping, you’d be taking $800 vs $100 block.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 06:20:44 PM by chilly460 »

My427stang

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2020, 06:15:22 PM »
It is a open question.

So, then my answer to it is:

If you limited the build to 460 ci.

If you limited it to 460, the superior Chevy heads would spank the FE :)

In fact, I bet a 429 would....and with less cam
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- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

blykins

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2020, 06:45:49 PM »
Two things I've learned (sarcasm) from this thread:

1:  2 * 340 = 780

2:  When your "opinion" is blatantly wrong, keep digging.
Brent Lykins
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Thumperbird

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2020, 06:50:28 PM »
OP here, not sure I understand this..."The OP hasn't said anything in this conversation. It would be nice if he could tell us if his title, was indeed redundant."

I did mean one would likely maximize cubes for each at the rationale cost tipping point.  My pea brain says more cubes allows more mild cam and build overall to yield same or better HP/torque.

Regardless, holy pistons batman did not know this was going to be a twitchy thread, no intention of that.

To put a little context to this, looking to redo an older f100 and since I already have a 445 stroker in my 65 Thunderbird I was thinking about going after another engine combo for fun and figured the 460 would be a logical choice.  If budget allows some day would likely go efi as well just to play with that.  The idea is still to stay retro if you will in terms of basic engine, not excited about putting a newer 4 valve mill in but nothing wrong with that either.
I do have my standards at the bar after all.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 06:52:10 PM by Thumperbird »

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2020, 07:08:00 PM »
My pea brain says more cubes allows more mild cam and build overall to yield same or better HP/torque.

Yep, and so does a higher flowing head.  As long as the port volume and port velocity stays in check, the more flow the better.....allows for smaller camshafts.
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
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Drew Pojedinec

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2020, 07:14:22 PM »
Thunderbird, for my own usage I’d stay FE to keep my fleet standardized.
If you are starting fresh and wanted to go 460 based engine on a budget, there is a stock Crank package for 500 cubes and D0VE heads.

Would be really really hard to beat for cost vs power.

Rory428

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2020, 08:27:27 PM »
If it was all about power per dollar, we would likely all be driver turbocharged junkyard Chevy LS engines. Thankfully we don`t all think that way. I`m a cheap SOB, but I will never have a Chevy powered Ford (years ago I bought a 1940 Ford PU project with a SB Chev, I left the engine and trans on his garage floor.), and if I want a V8 engine over 350 cubes, it will be a FE. Logical ?, no. The "easy" or "cost effective" way to go? Hardly. I`m a FE guy, who also like the 289-302 SBF, I can`t imagine any situation where anything I want to do with my car hobby, can not be accomplished with either of those engines. I guess that could be why I am on a FE forum, I just happen to like FEs.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

frnkeore

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #58 on: July 31, 2020, 02:27:01 PM »
"I'm baacck" As Jack Nicholson might say ;)

I feel like I'm writing a book over here so, w/o further ado, here we go.

First, I have to say, that you can not compare a 428 to a 460 if you don't limit it to the same CI. We all know that you can get 100 more CI out of the 460. A after market FE block would be a better one to do that with @ 526 CI for the FE.

First, I'll address Brent comment with the same zeal he uses:

Quote
Two things I've learned (sarcasm) from this thread:

1:  2 * 340 = 780

2:  When your "opinion" is blatantly wrong, keep digging.

Brent can either multiply, nor divide, I guess. 780 ÷ 2 = 390 or to correct Brent, 2 x 390 =

780. Based on, maybe a over optimistic porting of TF heads, with 2.3 valves. If the 2.3 will fit in 4.16 bore.
Maybe not apples to apples but the Kaase P51 heads responded to porting and a .050 valve increase (2.25 to 2.3) with 40 cfm but, I think we an safely say that ported TF heads with at least 2.25 valves, should produce, at least 370 cfm. That's up for debate..... For #2, I might point out that shovels are universal and made to fit anyone's hands.

Since we don't have a FE & 385 to build, I thought I'd see what I could do with my Sim. You

can input the block & head you will use FE vs 385 and you can input the detailed flow rates,

for the heads. I also have Pipe Max but, you can only input max flow rates with it and not low

lift figures. More info on the Sim I used:
 
What Are DynoSim6 and Dynomation6?

At the core of Dynomation6 and DynoSim6 is are mathematical models that
simulations four-stroke, internal combustion (IC) engines. These simulations incor-
Introduction To Version6 Simulations
The simulation incorporates a completely unique, intuitive user interface (shown using
one of several program color schemes). If you wish to change an engine component,
simply click on any component field on the left side of the screen and select
a new specification from the drop-down list or enter custom values. Engine components
are shared between both the Filling-And-Emptying (FE) and Wave-Action (WA) simulation

models. Results can be displayed in a wide variety of tables and graphs.
Main Program Screen porate two distinct simulation methods: 1) A Filling-And-Emptying

(FE) method, available in both DynoSim6 and Dynomation6 simulation packages, that provides

fast mathematical solutions to engine physics, including flow analysis through intake- and

exhaust systems, making this technique a powerful and efficient way to optimize engine

designs, and 2) A full Wave-Action (WA) method exclusively in Dynomation6 that calculates

and predicts the complex pressure-wave dynamics and particle flows in intake and exhaust
passages. The Wave-Action model picks up where the Filling-And-Emptying method leaves

off and “homes in” on the best port sizes and shapes, runner lengths, header configuration and

tubing dimensions, cam timing and valve motion, and other engine parameters, providing

unprecedented accuracy for the serious engine designer and builder.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I couldn't find porting info for the TF heads so, I only used the out of the box flow numbers,
supplied by Brent, to Stan Weiss's site. The 385 heads that I chose are the Kaase P51's, both out of the box and ported by Evens. Those CFM numbers, went into the program.

I limited the cam lobes to CC, XFI, hyd roller lobes, for both engines, using Brent, suggested 8

deg split and a 112 LSA, installed at 108, In CL, again for both. The OP wanted a mid level

engine so, I restricted the cams to peak at 56-5800. It takes a little more cam to get the lessor

cfm head to match the higher flow flow head, as we know, so I had to increase the cam

duration on the TF, FE head. I did not change the build, in anyway between the engines. CR, CI,

850 carb and exaust, are all the same. Only the cams and heads are different.

I think what some are missing in this type build, is the benefit of low lift flow. The TF heads,

with their 1.625 Ex valve, clearly out flow the P51's, until .600+ lift and the Intake flow is better on the TF head, below .300. Most likely velocity and the flow pattern is much better, also. I can't tell you if valve shrouding is addressed but, you can choose a 352, 390, 428 or 427 block, to start with so, it may be.

Lastly, I want to point out that the program is sinitive enough to pick up +/- HP differences,

based on the rod to stroke ratio. I won't say that this Sim is totally accurate on the HP output. I

don't use it for that, I use this one and Pipe Max, to try to understand, where things might be

able to be improved.

First up was Brent's recent 4.09 x 4.25, TF engine. I could not find the cam lobe he used. The CC, HUC was closest but, the lobes are short on the lift that he quotes. There are only two other lobes that have odd numbered durations, the QXX & QXI, both have higher lifts. So, I used the XFI lobes, that are within .005 lift of his spec. But, I had to use more duration 231 vs 234 to get my numbers, in matching his HP, close enough to win one of his GTH things. I couldn't get the torque though. I was short 29 lb ft. BTW, the XFI are the same cam lobes that I used on the other engines.

I'm also adding a Blair, 469 CI, 315 CFM, small cam build. Actual dyno results.

NOTE THE AVERAGE HP FIGURES!
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 02:37:05 PM by frnkeore »
Frank

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #59 on: July 31, 2020, 02:34:42 PM »
So whats the point of all this? ::)

frnkeore

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #60 on: July 31, 2020, 02:40:48 PM »
460 FE will compete with a 460 385.
Frank

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #61 on: July 31, 2020, 03:24:02 PM »
So whats the point of all this? ::)

Apparently, to showcase a lot of his “opinion” without any experience at all to back it up.

It’s hard to read anything he says without laughing.  I really liked the line about the theoretical TFS heads that flow 390 cfm with a 2.300” valve.

Brent Lykins
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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #62 on: July 31, 2020, 03:45:43 PM »
460 FE will compete with a 460 385.

Not for 10 grand, both FE engines you looked at are well above that price, and a 460 would have some seriously nice parts if using the same budget as those

Concede for once, or at least be accommodating that some of us don’t BS.  You read the original poster’s question incorrectly...it’s no big deal
---------------------------------
Ross
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- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #63 on: July 31, 2020, 04:08:59 PM »
460 FE will compete with a 460 385.

Not for 10 grand, both FE engines you looked at are well above that price, and a 460 would have some seriously nice parts if using the same budget as those

Concede for once, or at least be accommodating that some of us don’t BS.  You read the original poster’s question incorrectly...it’s no big deal

Correct.  The OP put a $ amount on the builds but did not put a displacement amount on them.   This is just an argument for the sake of arguing....or maybe to save face.
Brent Lykins
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cjshaker

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #64 on: July 31, 2020, 05:09:06 PM »
So whats the point of all this? ::)

To flog a dead horse to the point of being unrecognizable  ::)

Concede for once, or at least be accommodating that some of us don’t BS.  You read the original poster’s question incorrectly...it’s no big deal

Who's giving odds on this? I want in... 8)
Doug Smith


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'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #65 on: July 31, 2020, 05:54:08 PM »
So whats the point of all this? ::)

To flog a dead horse to the point of being unrecognizable  ::)

Concede for once, or at least be accommodating that some of us don’t BS.  You read the original poster’s question incorrectly...it’s no big deal

Who's giving odds on this? I want in... 8)
That horse has been flogged unrecognizable 25 years ago....he must be flogging that horse's great great grandson. ::)

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #66 on: July 31, 2020, 06:44:56 PM »
I have a ALL NEW PARTS, EVERY NUT AND BOLT, 460, 650 hp that I will sell for $9000.00  Let's see you build an all new parts FE that makes 650 hp for $9000.00.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #67 on: August 01, 2020, 12:11:11 AM »
I have a ALL NEW PARTS, EVERY NUT AND BOLT, 460, 650 hp that I will sell for $9000.00  Let's see you build an all new parts FE that makes 650 hp for $9000.00.  Joe-JDC

I’ll defend the FE a little bit. Can I start with the 427TP I purchased for $3,500 manifold to pan?
That leaves me $5,500 for upgrades  ;D
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 12:13:34 AM by mike7570 »

frnkeore

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #68 on: August 01, 2020, 01:18:31 AM »
My own personal feeling are "who wants a 385 when you can have a FE". Cost has never been much of a issue on this forum. I'd sure rather have a FE 460, in my F350. But, then, I'd also have to change out the front springs, to get the nose back down.

If you really don't want to build a FE, Don't. Why not build a 4 cam modular? They are also cheap.  Who's up for that challenge? $10K will get you a long way there, too (the OP said he was open to that). And at least it's a real Ford design!

For those that say the 385 heads were not copied from the BBC, where were you between 1965, when the BBC came out  and 1968, when the 429 cam out? I suppose you think Ford never looked under a 396 or 427, BBC valve cover? They didn't come out in the same year, like the slant block, MEL and 348 did. If so, I wouldn't say that it was copied.

Excuse me, my horse needs mouth to mouth  ;)
Frank

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #69 on: August 01, 2020, 07:50:23 AM »
I have a ALL NEW PARTS, EVERY NUT AND BOLT, 460, 650 hp that I will sell for $9000.00  Let's see you build an all new parts FE that makes 650 hp for $9000.00.  Joe-JDC

Joe, does that include a new block?  And is that your investment, or what you will sell it for?  Just curious...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #70 on: August 01, 2020, 08:15:42 AM »
Jay, that is a new Motorsports two bolt main short block, everything new, heads, intake, pan, distributor, valve covers, everything except the carb.   That is what I have invested, that is what I will sell it for plus shipping.  I also have Hooker Super Comp headers for '71 Mustang for this engine that are new in box, and a 1250 Dominator that I would let go for for my cost.  I really haven't tried to sell this, just trying to make a point in the argument above.  I built this for a customer, and they backed out after I rounded up all the parts.  Never build an engine without a sizeable down payment before procuring expensive parts.  I thought the fellow was a good friend.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #71 on: August 01, 2020, 08:20:55 AM »
I would agree with, "Who wants a 385 when you can have an FE?" 

To me, there's no comparison between the looks/appearance and the history between the two engines.   Aside of the Boss 429, the 385 series really doesn't have the iconic history that the FE does. 

However, all emotional feelings aside, the 429/460 will make more horsepower with less investment.

As an aside point, to be honest, I don't think you can build either one of them with all new parts (not counting the blocks as "new" because you don't need new blocks) for $10k.  $10k doesn't go very far these days.   However, with all of that in mind, a 352/390 block is going to be the cheapest route but without going to a 4.375" crank, you're limited at 450 cubes.  With 428 and 427 blocks being so expensive, if you decide to start with one of those, your budget just took a serious hit.  On the other hand, a 460 block is stupid cheap.  You could also reuse the 460 crankshaft. 

Even if you decide to go with an aftermarket block on the 385 series, the BEST block from Eliminator is less than $3000.  That block will support 2500+ hp and is the block I use for my pulling engines. 

Everyone needs to set their "opinions" and emotions to the side and just take things at face value. 

All-in-all, given a set of AFR BBF cylinder heads, I think the 460 (385 series) would be 60-75 hp over the FE with similar cam profiles, similar compression ratios, similar intake manifolds/induction, etc.   And yes, to answer Frank's, question, you absolutely can take advantage of a 400cfm head on the street, as long as the port volume isn't blown out of proportion.   There are very few 385 series cylinder heads out there that move less than 400cfm of air.  Many of the heads from Kaase, TFS, AFR, Profiler, etc., *start* at 400 cfm.  The Profiler heads that I use on my BBF pulling engines flow over 550cfm and there are heads available from Eliminator that flow over 600.

Once a stroker crankshaft is introduced to the 385 engine, then it's no contest whatsoever....not even a remote chance.

« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 08:29:08 AM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
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e philpott

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #72 on: August 01, 2020, 09:15:28 AM »
FE guy here but a 1970 and 71 Torino 429 SCJ with shaker is a good looking engine IMHO , it saves the 385 series for me

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #73 on: August 01, 2020, 11:04:47 AM »

For those that say the 385 heads were not copied from the BBC, where were you between 1965, when the BBC came out  and 1968, when the 429 cam out? I suppose you think Ford never looked under a 396 or 427, BBC valve cover? They didn't come out in the same year, like the slant block, MEL and 348 did. If so, I wouldn't say that it was copied.

Excuse me, my horse needs mouth to mouth  ;)

Frank - Are you familiar with the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE)?  Automotive design trends are pretty well documented in SAE papers that everybody can see.  Long before a BBC valve cover existed, there were numerous papers published on canted valve layouts for internal combustion engines.  I have engine design books issued to me when I joined Ford Engineering, that go into great detail on the subject.  The first revision dates on these books go back as far as World War II.

"Advanced" designs are really quite old.  Did you know that the first DOHC 4-valve engine was built by Peugeot in 1912?  The canted valve BBC head was around for a long time before its introduction.  As mentioned above, Chrysler used canted valves for its Polyspherical engine starting in 1958.

No, Ford didn't copy the BBC head for the 385 series.  They certainly knew about the performance and emissions potential of canted valve heads, and made a decision to pursue this well-known technology.
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #74 on: August 01, 2020, 11:10:52 AM »
Ok,

So our dry lakes racer was a '70 1/2 Falcon.

The engine was a D1 460 block, stock crank and truck/CJ rods, Speed Pro flat top pistons, Edelbrock Victor heads and intake (no porting on either), DUI distributor, and Holley 950hp carb. It had a Comp roller cam 248@.050 with .648 lift.

It dynoed at Westec 614 horsepower at 6100 rpm.

My point being: Nobody has ever given me a 427 block. Since I built this 460 motor 4 people have given me 429/460's. You could probably duplicate that horsepower with a 427 block and a 428 crank, but not likely with unported Edelbrock heads and a unported Victor FE intake.

The DUI distributor REALLY  helped with the rat look. The DUI unit worked flawlessly during the dyno session and subsequent use.

BTW, it would be extremely naive to think that Ford didn't look the rat motor up 'n down before designing the 385. 

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #75 on: August 01, 2020, 11:15:24 AM »

For those that say the 385 heads were not copied from the BBC, where were you between 1965, when the BBC came out  and 1968, when the 429 cam out? I suppose you think Ford never looked under a 396 or 427, BBC valve cover? They didn't come out in the same year, like the slant block, MEL and 348 did. If so, I wouldn't say that it was copied.

Excuse me, my horse needs mouth to mouth  ;)

Frank - Are you familiar with the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE)?  Automotive design trends are pretty well documented in SAE papers that everybody can see.  Long before a BBC valve cover existed, there were numerous papers published on canted valve layouts for internal combustion engines.  I have engine design books issued to me when I joined Ford Engineering, that go into great detail on the subject.  The first revision dates on these books go back as far as World War II.

"Advanced" designs are really quite old.  Did you know that the first DOHC 4-valve engine was built by Peugeot in 1912?  The canted valve BBC head was around for a long time before its introduction.  As mentioned above, Chrysler used canted valves for its Polyspherical engine starting in 1958.

No, Ford didn't copy the BBC head for the 385 series.  They certainly knew about the performance and emissions potential of canted valve heads, and made a decision to pursue this well-known technology.

Aw Bill, we are only concerned about opinions in this thread.....
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
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Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #76 on: August 01, 2020, 11:34:02 AM »

For those that say the 385 heads were not copied from the BBC, where were you between 1965, when the BBC came out  and 1968, when the 429 cam out? I suppose you think Ford never looked under a 396 or 427, BBC valve cover? They didn't come out in the same year, like the slant block, MEL and 348 did. If so, I wouldn't say that it was copied.

Excuse me, my horse needs mouth to mouth  ;)

Frank - Are you familiar with the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE)?  Automotive design trends are pretty well documented in SAE papers that everybody can see.  Long before a BBC valve cover existed, there were numerous papers published on canted valve layouts for internal combustion engines.  I have engine design books issued to me when I joined Ford Engineering, that go into great detail on the subject.  The first revision dates on these books go back as far as World War II.

"Advanced" designs are really quite old.  Did you know that the first DOHC 4-valve engine was built by Peugeot in 1912?  The canted valve BBC head was around for a long time before its introduction.  As mentioned above, Chrysler used canted valves for its Polyspherical engine starting in 1958.

No, Ford didn't copy the BBC head for the 385 series.  They certainly knew about the performance and emissions potential of canted valve heads, and made a decision to pursue this well-known technology.

Aw Bill, we are only concerned about opinions in this thread.....

My bad, Brent.  Sometimes I don't listen so good.
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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #77 on: August 01, 2020, 11:39:32 AM »

For those that say the 385 heads were not copied from the BBC, where were you between 1965, when the BBC came out  and 1968, when the 429 cam out? I suppose you think Ford never looked under a 396 or 427, BBC valve cover? They didn't come out in the same year, like the slant block, MEL and 348 did. If so, I wouldn't say that it was copied.

Excuse me, my horse needs mouth to mouth  ;)

Frank - Are you familiar with the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE)?  Automotive design trends are pretty well documented in SAE papers that everybody can see.  Long before a BBC valve cover existed, there were numerous papers published on canted valve layouts for internal combustion engines.  I have engine design books issued to me when I joined Ford Engineering, that go into great detail on the subject.  The first revision dates on these books go back as far as World War II.

"Advanced" designs are really quite old.  Did you know that the first DOHC 4-valve engine was built by Peugeot in 1912?  The canted valve BBC head was around for a long time before its introduction.  As mentioned above, Chrysler used canted valves for its Polyspherical engine starting in 1958.

No, Ford didn't copy the BBC head for the 385 series.  They certainly knew about the performance and emissions potential of canted valve heads, and made a decision to pursue this well-known technology.

Aw Bill, we are only concerned about opinions in this thread.....

My bad, Brent.  Sometimes I don't listen so good.

I’m glad you don’t listen so good.  :D
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
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frnkeore

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #78 on: August 01, 2020, 12:21:55 PM »
Continuing on with the BBC vs 385 argument. When a manufacturer releases something, under their name, that design is generally "owned" by them and many in fact, be owned by them, if they purchase the patent rights.

Like I said, the 1958 slant block (MEL/348) is up for grab's and they used different valve arrangements. But, I don't think the canted valve engine is. GM, came out with it first.

How many of you would give GM a pass, if they came out with a inline valve engine, that had the push rods running through the intake?

Yes, I am familiar with the huge, 4 cylinder, 1912 Peugeot, it ran at Indy and I would say they weren't the first to use it. All kinds of manufacturers have used it and still do, to this day. No other design has bettered it, for all out HP.

Push rods have been around a long time, too and there are many push rod designs. It's how they are package, that makes them unique to the manufacture, such as the nail head Buick, Chrysler hemi and many more. Again, if Ford would have came out with a nail head engine, after the Buick, would it be considered "original" in it's design?

You have to use a little common since, guy's.
Frank

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #79 on: August 01, 2020, 12:43:13 PM »
My own personal feeling are "who wants a 385 when you can have a FE". Cost has never been much of a issue on this forum. I'd sure rather have a FE 460, in my F350. But, then, I'd also have to change out the front springs, to get the nose back down.

If you really don't want to build a FE, Don't. Why not build a 4 cam modular? They are also cheap.  Who's up for that challenge? $10K will get you a long way there, too (the OP said he was open to that). And at least it's a real Ford design!

For those that say the 385 heads were not copied from the BBC, where were you between 1965, when the BBC came out  and 1968, when the 429 cam out? I suppose you think Ford never looked under a 396 or 427, BBC valve cover? They didn't come out in the same year, like the slant block, MEL and 348 did. If so, I wouldn't say that it was copied.

Excuse me, my horse needs mouth to mouth  ;)
You are entitled to your opinion no matter how wrong you may be... ;) If you want to cite history then you should know the canted valve Chevy came out in early 1963 when the heads were first seen publicly at the Daytona 500 in Feb of 63. This Chevy engine produced lap speeds in the 166 -167 MPH range whereas the early lowriser 427 Fords were only lapping at 161-162. Ford cried fowl as these heads were not available to the general public as per NASCAR rules and after much bickering back and forth Chevy provided a sample of this new engine to NASCAR and Ford... When it was disassembled it was clear this engine could not run as the internal parts were obviously rejects and would have failed within 5 or 10 laps at speed. It was so phony the Chevy orange paint on the engine was still tacky. Chevy developing canted valve heads as something new?...Pure hogwash. It is obvious you have never been into a 385 series BBF as the only thing similar is the valve angles. Port arraignment is totally different, Ford being symmetrical intake ports and BBC is simesed[sp] ports.

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #80 on: August 01, 2020, 12:53:15 PM »
As you say, "You are entitled to your opinion no matter how wrong you may be... ;)

 I invented that saying, even though you said it first ;);)
Frank

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #81 on: August 01, 2020, 12:56:43 PM »
As you say, "You are entitled to your opinion no matter how wrong you may be... ;)

 I invented that saying, even though you said it first ;);)

I think you also wrote the book, “How to win friends and influence people.”, is that correct?

Frank, if I didn’t know any better I would think that you’re trying to be a forum troll.
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
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Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #82 on: August 01, 2020, 01:03:42 PM »
Continuing on with the BBC vs 385 argument. When a manufacturer releases something, under their name, that design is generally "owned" by them and many in fact, be owned by them, if they purchase the patent rights.

Like I said, the 1958 slant block (MEL/348) is up for grab's and they used different valve arrangements. But, I don't think the canted valve engine is. GM, came out with it first.

How many of you would give GM a pass, if they came out with a inline valve engine, that had the push rods running through the intake?

Yes, I am familiar with the huge, 4 cylinder, 1912 Peugeot, it ran at Indy and I would say they weren't the first to use it. All kinds of manufacturers have used it and still do, to this day. No other design has bettered it, for all out HP.

Push rods have been around a long time, too and there are many push rod designs. It's how they are package, that makes them unique to the manufacture, such as the nail head Buick, Chrysler hemi and many more. Again, if Ford would have came out with a nail head engine, after the Buick, would it be considered "original" in it's design?

You have to use a little common since, guy's.
Although I am not a GM guy I do believe there is a GM engine with the pushrods in the intake manifold. It is a 2.6L or 2.8L V6 used in the 80s small Blazers...I could be wrong but if fact I don't think Ford would be demanding royalties or claiming patent infringements by copying the Tunnelport design.   

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #83 on: August 01, 2020, 01:22:02 PM »
Continuing on with the BBC vs 385 argument. When a manufacturer releases something, under their name, that design is generally "owned" by them and many in fact, be owned by them, if they purchase the patent rights.

Like I said, the 1958 slant block (MEL/348) is up for grab's and they used different valve arrangements. But, I don't think the canted valve engine is. GM, came out with it first.

How many of you would give GM a pass, if they came out with a inline valve engine, that had the push rods running through the intake?

Yes, I am familiar with the huge, 4 cylinder, 1912 Peugeot, it ran at Indy and I would say they weren't the first to use it. All kinds of manufacturers have used it and still do, to this day. No other design has bettered it, for all out HP.

Push rods have been around a long time, too and there are many push rod designs. It's how they are package, that makes them unique to the manufacture, such as the nail head Buick, Chrysler hemi and many more. Again, if Ford would have came out with a nail head engine, after the Buick, would it be considered "original" in it's design?

You have to use a little common since, guy's.
How did the "plank head" arraignment get into this conversation? I thought we were discussing the differences between the FE and the 385. But since you brought it up the plank head design is nothing new...Ford didn't design it nor did GM. If you want to split that hair 28 different ways then it can be said that design can be traced back to diesel technology with the combustion chamber in the block, not the head. 1st diesel that come to my mind using this common design is the Detroit Diesel 71 series engine introduced in 1938. There are others but that is the one I'm familiar with.  BTW, That is not to say that GM "owns" this design, they don't.

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #84 on: August 01, 2020, 02:02:54 PM »
I think Frank is assuming that if it's new to production, it must be state-of-the-art.  The canted valve BBC head wasn't state-of-the art in 1968 (or 1963, when the "Mystery Motor" came out).

The canted calve head wasn't even state-of-the art in 1938.  If GM could have patented the canted valve head design, they WOULD have.  Auto companies are very aggressive about patenting their new technology.  I know because I watched it happen with stuff I worked on inside Ford.  The patent lawyers were very busy!
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 02:51:20 PM by WConley »
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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #85 on: August 01, 2020, 05:51:44 PM »
385 ford a copy of a BBC? No not really. Perhaps you can say they fixed all the stupid in the BBC.  If you knew about both engines you would not say it is a copy.  There are a lot of differences between them and the 385 overall is a better design, even GM knew that if you look at the last street BBC re-design.

FE = Freaking expensive, always has. Most of the good stuff holds its value or goes up in price.  385 most stuff goes down and that added to all the advantages it already has makes it a clear winner if all you want is make power and that is the case even when same cube inches.  Years ago a lot of guys did not know how to make them run. It just did not have the time back them to get fully developed like the FE and a lot of racers stuck to what they knew worked.  These days is well known how to make them run and everything is available to do so. 

I can put together an A-head 547 for less than $10k and make 900 hp easily and reliably. 

Thumperbird

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #86 on: August 01, 2020, 06:33:57 PM »
Ok, to the redundant question piece, note a piece of my original ask, "if one were to utilize that $10k well in terms of maximizing cubes"...  spend the $10k however you want including adding cubes.

To summarize, streetable end game, cheap junk yard block to start with, which one gets the nod for HP and torque for $10k? And I suppose something close to period available, no Godzilla's.

I must say though, never been a fan of mixing brand hardware, will not bother to look at a f100 with a chevy front end or a 350 or what ever.  Why someone builds a Cobra replica and throws a chevy motor in it I'll never know, but that's just me, to each his own.  I do find some appeal to modern engine tech in a classic, the old/new edgy look if done right is kind of neat.


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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #87 on: August 01, 2020, 08:12:15 PM »
How many times must it be said, and in how many ways?  According to Jon Kaase the two bolt 460 block will withstand 750 hp all day long.  They can be bored to 4.420 usually, and a CJ or SCJ block can go to 4.440" easy.  You can throw a 4.500" crankshaft into the two bolt block with aluminum heads and have a 514, 521, 547, or 557 CI BBF that will not weigh much more than a FE, and be up as much as 150 hp over the same amount of money spent on the FE.  The difference between a 462FE and 521 BBF is 59 cubic inches and the FE with a good build will be around 1.2 hp/ci, and the BBF will only get better everywhere.  This is an FE forum, and I have 2-427s, 2-428 CJs, and I raced FEs for more than 35 years.  I like the FE, but if I were to start fresh with cubic inches and horsepower in mind with a 10K budget, the BBF 460 would get the nod without a second thought.  There are transmissions that will fit either, and each other with bellhousing adapters, so that is not an issue.  Anywhere a FE will fit, the 460 will fit with the proper water pumps, headers, etc.  Joe-JDC
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gt350hr

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #88 on: August 03, 2020, 12:10:13 PM »
   GM copied Ford's Tunnel port . Pontiac ram Air V and there was a lesser known Olds experimental head with tunnel ports too.
    Short blocks are dependent on cylinder heads to make power and "for the moment'' the 460 has a clear advantage over FE offerings in that department.

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #89 on: August 03, 2020, 03:24:17 PM »
Always thought that the 427 Cammer dual quad was the best looking engine ever made, with day 2 or 3 Boss in close second place. (day 2 means de-smogged and day 2 Nascar intake and headers). 

However for some reason there seems to be have been little development on Cammer intake ports and they don't flow near the current Boss 9 head out of the box offerings, which are around 400 cfm for Kaase heads and about 440 cfm for Todd Miller heads.

 
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 08:36:17 PM by babybolt »

gdaddy01

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #90 on: August 03, 2020, 03:47:38 PM »
is that supposed to be 427 cammer ?

e philpott

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #91 on: August 03, 2020, 03:54:36 PM »
Always thought that the 429 Cammer dual quad was the best looking engine ever made, with day 2 or 3 Boss in close second place. (day 2 means de-smogged and day 2 Nascar intake and headers). 

However for some reason there seems to be have been little development on Cammer intake ports and they don't flow near the current Boss 9 head out of the box offerings, which are around 400 cfm for Kaase heads and about 440 cfm for Todd Miller heads.

 
   Is the Miller head available ?

70tp

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #92 on: August 03, 2020, 06:00:12 PM »
Just wait till Jays heads get to to making decent power (they likely will) and push the crank out of everybody’s blocks.  Is it a bad thing to have heads than can out run the block or not? 

babybolt

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #93 on: August 03, 2020, 08:54:39 PM »
LOL, changed the 429 Cammer to 427 Cammer above.

Yes, Todd Miller is still making heads but like many others has been slowed down the this plandemic.

67xr7cat

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #94 on: August 03, 2020, 09:24:05 PM »
Ok, to the redundant question piece, note a piece of my original ask, "if one were to utilize that $10k well in terms of maximizing cubes"...  spend the $10k however you want including adding cubes.

To summarize, streetable end game, cheap junk yard block to start with, which one gets the nod for HP and torque for $10k? And I suppose something close to period available, no Godzilla's.

I must say though, never been a fan of mixing brand hardware, will not bother to look at a f100 with a chevy front end or a 350 or what ever.  Why someone builds a Cobra replica and throws a chevy motor in it I'll never know, but that's just me, to each his own.  I do find some appeal to modern engine tech in a classic, the old/new edgy look if done right is kind of neat.

For an F100 put a 460 in it and don't look back.  Saying streetable is vague to say what your build would cost, but a streetable 500 - 600 hp 385 based engine is not hard to do and if you keep it simple can be done for a lot less than $10k.

Here is a link to a video where they are playing around with basically factory stuff that not hard to find or to replicate. Gives you an idea what can be done with a 460 without getting fancy.  Now no way would I pay to port those heads for their 600 hp romp, be way ahead with some TFS or AFR heads, but think they made the point and that is just using regular TJet heads, not CJ's..

https://youtu.be/hqc3f4PWSCU

garyv

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #95 on: August 04, 2020, 09:44:33 AM »
I just watched that video and thought it was pretty good at laying out what you can do with a 460 without breaking the bank.
I can personally say that getting 600hp out of an FE takes a little voodoo to accomplish and a bunch of cash. To go beyond that
takes more of both  ;D.
Back in the mid 80's I build a 460 for my 78 F150. I recently found the receipts while going through some stuff in my garage. I have around $1500 in the engine including machine work but not counting the L&L headers, new clutch etc.
Used a block out of a Lincoln and kept the crank and rods.  Heads are C9VE-A's with screw in studs and guide plates, hardened push rods and adjustable rockers. I did clean up the exhaust ports but didn't touch the intake.
Edelbrock performer RPM intake and 750 carb. Comp cams 260 cam, double roller chain, new oil pump, TRW forged pistons and a stock duraspark distributor.  This thing runs great and has tons or torque and gets better mileage than the 351M that was in it. 
I love these old FE's but if you just want HP I think the 460 is the way to go.  They will make way over 600HP with ported stock iron heads.
My 2 cents

garyv

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #96 on: August 04, 2020, 09:54:42 AM »
I agree,

Here is a for instance. 

My 461 FE in the truck right now. Super strong and mellow. 490 HP

- Stroker kit
- .041 quench, 9.7:1 compression
- Victor intake
- Professionally ported iron heads with oversize valves
- 230/236 cam
- Headers

Do all that stuff, same stuff, don't limit cubes, but also to give the FE a fair shot, don't even spend the total on the 460.  You have at least a 514 and you didn't have to pay the money for a 428 block

Even if it was the same HP per cube being built for torque, the 514 would be closer to 550 HP, however, the better breathing due to the heads, intake and bore size would likely get you more. Limit the cubes, match the HP, but save a couple thou

My aversion in my F100, was always the cost of the L&L stuff, in hindsight, I wish I would have, but I can't hook now in a 4x4 SB, so I guess it's all bench racing!


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gt350hr

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #97 on: August 04, 2020, 10:19:34 AM »
Always thought that the 427 Cammer dual quad was the best looking engine ever made, with day 2 or 3 Boss in close second place. (day 2 means de-smogged and day 2 Nascar intake and headers). 

However for some reason there seems to be have been little development on Cammer intake ports and they don't flow near the current Boss 9 head out of the box offerings, which are around 400 cfm for Kaase heads and about 440 cfm for Todd Miller heads.

 

    That might be why flow bench don't have slicks.

garyv

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #98 on: August 04, 2020, 12:36:13 PM »
Ross back when I did the 460 for my truck there were very few parts for the conversion other than L&L stuff. I didn't think it was to
pricey back then. I used a 40lb steel billet flywheel and a center force clutch kit. I know lot of guys don't like the center force clutches but this one has been great,  Other outfits now make the motor mounts and headers but nothing is cheap.  I have a set of Hedman fender well exit headers but think I'll just keep the L&L ones on it. 

garyv

 

Barry_R

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #99 on: August 04, 2020, 01:02:27 PM »
At least half the fun in building a strong FE lies in "doing what folks say you could not do".

Fifteen years ago we had people on the old FE Forum telling me I should not build and enter an FE because we could not be competitive.
Look where we as a group are at now.

Rory428

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #100 on: August 04, 2020, 01:26:13 PM »
At least half the fun in building a strong FE lies in "doing what folks say you could not do".

Fifteen years ago we had people on the old FE Forum telling me I should not build and enter an FE because we could not be competitive.
Look where we as a group are at now.
Agreed, Barry. I also find that quite often (but not always, as there are indeed plenty of quick 385 powered cars out there), many of these ''easy'' mild 550-600 HP 460ish engines seem to perform at the track like there dyno numbers or guesstimates, were rather optimistic once the engine was installed in a vehicle, and put to work on the starting line. Maybe some areas have an aboundance of pump gas, 9 second naturally aspirated 460 powered street cars, but if there are any around here, they don`t seem to come out to play .
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

cjshaker

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #101 on: August 04, 2020, 02:25:19 PM »
At least half the fun in building a strong FE lies in "doing what folks say you could not do".

Occasionally, everyone needs slapped with that comment...lol
Ain't nobody here building FE's because it's the best engine design, or because they're cheap, or to get rich.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

Rory428

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #102 on: August 04, 2020, 03:11:49 PM »
Exactly, I started racing my first FE in 1977 (66 Fairlane GTA 390), 43 years later, still love the FE. Started with Y Blocks, raced a 351C before the Fairlane, but FE Fever took hold, and still got it. If you were looking for plain logic, racing cars makes little sense, doing it with an engine that hasn`t been in production for 44 years makes even less sense. Star Treks Dr. Spock was all about logic, but did anybody ever see him smile?
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #103 on: August 04, 2020, 09:02:34 PM »
Well said Rory.  Our FEs are fun. 

It's great when we surprise the other brands with our obsolete engines.

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #104 on: August 04, 2020, 10:19:06 PM »
Always thought that the 427 Cammer dual quad was the best looking engine ever made, with day 2 or 3 Boss in close second place. (day 2 means de-smogged and day 2 Nascar intake and headers). 

However for some reason there seems to be have been little development on Cammer intake ports and they don't flow near the current Boss 9 head out of the box offerings, which are around 400 cfm for Kaase heads and about 440 cfm for Todd Miller heads.

 

Jim Dove was known to 'get a bug' and work non-stop for several days while coming up with a new 'something'. One I know about was a re-work of the cammer head to include the intake runners from a Top Fuel aftermarket head. He made patterns and had castings made. He had a second floor overhead walkway from his bedroom to a close-by pole barn. The first thing in the pole barn was a room with a Super-Flow flow bench. (The room also held some of his one-off dreamer projects setting where he put  them down when he got distracted by something else.)

His head casting with the new runners would flow beyond 500 CFM without any more development than the grafting-in process. No telling what might have been possible with some additional work...

KS

garyv

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Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #105 on: August 05, 2020, 07:46:10 AM »
I agree with Barry's comment. When I started seeking out some decent TP stuff I was wanting to do something different than the
aluminum headed stuff everyone was building at the time. I wanted to use original Ford heads and intake.  I found a set of TP heads that some told me were probably "junk". Brent sent them to Ray Shepherd and he fixed them. We went on to build 3 different iterations of that engine. I have to admit it was fun but also not cheap but none of this is and it was my first go around at this FE stuff.  We ended up with an old iron headed TP
that makes some serious HP. 
I'm sure we could have gotten to the same power level with a stroked 385 series for a whole lot less money but it wouldn't have any provenance to it and that is what I like most about it.

garyv