Author Topic: 428 versus 460  (Read 14301 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

frnkeore

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1128
    • View Profile
Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2020, 11:29:52 AM »
Brent,
I then have to ask, why didn't a BBC win the last EMC contest? They weren't even close, with Kaase at the helm and a 289 was second. Kind makes you wonder, especially with what the OP's wants ???
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 11:32:05 AM by frnkeore »
Frank

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4801
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2020, 11:43:51 AM »
Brent,
I then have to ask, why didn't a BBC win the last EMC contest? They weren't even close, with Kaase at the helm and a 289 was second. Kind makes you wonder, especially with what the OP's wants ???

You can't base a general statement on one engine contest.  How many BBF's were entered?  Hot Rod doesn't advertise their data very well.  I'm seeing one BBF.  Just because only one BBF was entered and it didn't win, certainly doesn't mean that a BBF is not superior to other engine families.  I'm also having trouble figuring out what a BBC has to do with any of this???????

If we're basing all of this on the OP's "wants", he mentioned aluminum heads.   It's all over with when you get the aftermarket involved. 

In order to make big streetable horsepower, you need cubic inches and head flow.  If we're discussing factory blocks, the biggest you can make an FE is around 500 cubic inches with off the shelf parts, using a 427 block and a 4.375" crank, if you find one.  A 460 block will go to 558-560 cubes easily. 

As far as cylinder heads, most FE heads that you can buy off the shelf from a catalog will be limited to about 330-340 cfm.   You can buy one of Kaase's P51 heads that pushes 400 cfm, or an AFR head that flows over that. 

I'm as big of an FE fan as anyone here and they make up about 95% of my business.   However, even then, I'm not too blind to believe that any other Ford engine family won't have more capability to make horsepower.  The last 445 FE I built made 536 hp @ 5500 with 575 lb-ft of torque.  The last 418 Windsor I built made 540 hp @ 5500 and 575 lb-ft of torque. 

« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 12:32:06 PM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

frnkeore

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1128
    • View Profile
Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2020, 12:44:09 PM »
Here we go again, Brent. I post something and you try to prove me wrong. Regarding your BBC comment, are you trying to tell me that you don't know that they are canted valve head, just like the BBF and have the same advantages? Ford copied the BBC heads for both the 302/351C and the 429/460. That is one of the reason I don't like them.

Are you trying to tell me that there isn't enough HP in the FE head, to handle a mild 460 engine? Blaire has shown us, that there is 1.5 hp per CI in a C6 head. Do we need more than that for a mild build? Mummert showed us that there is nearly that same amount in a 1.91 x 1.53 valve, 295/289 (again a old C6 head). Nether of those are all out engines!

If the OP upgrades to a TF, 332 cfm head, how much more HP and especially torque, will a 400 cfm 385 head give him at 5800, with 460 CI?

You know the answers to those questions and would promote a FE, if I hadn't posted.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 12:47:53 PM by frnkeore »
Frank

RJP

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2020, 12:44:38 PM »
Hi Joe,
What I am talking about, is based on the EMC engines that both Kaase and Blair built for that competition and based on a ~460 CI max size, as that is what the OP is talking about, with his 428.

I believe Blair's almost 600 HP out of a little less than 400 CI, beat all comers, including the BBC heads that Ford copied for the 429/460, 385. Is that correct?

I'm talking with a head porter, right now that tells me, that even though the stock FE's ex port is bad, the 460's is worse and flows not much more than a SBF. It was hard to believe, with the 460's much larger ex valve but, that's what his flow bench showed.

To my other point, what do you do, with a 545/557 engine, on the street, rather than have bragging rights for the biggest engine? That power can't be used for more than about 3 seconds and there, the car with the best traction will win, with street tires. Not easy to get a street tire to hook up in a 3500 lb car with over 700 HP. I would bet on a SBF 427 Cobra for that. It might be close but, that would be my bet.

Those are just my opinions but, HP/weight, will win in at least the first 2/3 to 3/4 of the 1/4 mi and it takes a hell of a lot of HP to over come that.

A drag racing example:
550 hp 332 in a 2200 lb Falcon = 4 lb per HP

800 HP 557 in a 3500 lb Mustang or Fairlane = 4.375 lb per hp.

The Mustang may come on stronger at the end but, which will win?

Frontal area comes in to play, on the top end, too. The Falcon has less of it.

The 306 that I'm building at ~500 hp, setting in a 1300 lb car gives 2.6 lb per hp, how would the 800 hp/3500 lb car, do against that?

My biggest point is, I guess, is what good is that 800 hp on the street, even if you can get past the next gas pump?
The OP asked about horsepower/torque and what would be an easier way to accomplish just that...No mention of fuel mileage, vehicle weight, frontal area, traction, etc. What good is 800 HP you ask? So maybe a mere 700HP is fine and acceptable but not 800? Begs the question...Why are you here on this forum? Not everyone builds a 1300lb car nor do they want to. Some of us build large sedans, station-wagons, heavy trucks or in my case fast boats as well as my large, heavy cars that are driven on the streets and highways. Also to address your comment that Ford copied the BBC head design...Just because Ford used a "canted" valve arraignment similar to the BB Chevy but thats where the similarity ends. It does not mean they copied it. If you want to split hairs then it can be said that Chevy copied the Chrysler's "Poly angle" head used on the early 318" engines going back to the mid 50s. You build your cars anyway you want to but don't criticize, critique or question what others build. Not everyone lives in your world.

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4801
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2020, 12:50:52 PM »
Does this forum have an ignore option?
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3918
    • View Profile
Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2020, 01:01:54 PM »
If you limit the build to ~460 CI (.030 over 428 x 4.25 crank/462), I think you can have similar or even more HP. That statement is based on how well FE's have done in the EMC competition, using stock heads as a base. Add in TF, ported  heads (or Jays) and the best of intakes and it may even keep up with aftermarket 385 heads, to a CI point.

The FE was and still is, the only BBF to me. Other than drag racing there no real competition for BB's so, for me, regarding racing, weight to HP will get you there faster at less than Pro level. I'm not a fan of large CI, high HP cars on the road, you just can't use what you have, until you get to a track and then the light weight car, with 60 less CI, will blow you off at the track.

He didn't say "same cid" he said, $10K in either engine with good core selection.

Using that logic and applying it to your cubic inch match.  10K in a stock crank 460, will go a lot farther than in a stroked 428, and with more parts selection. 

Yes, it sucks, I love FEs too, but using your own advice to answer the OP's question, a good early 460 with an intake and cam is already making a 428 play severe catch up
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Drew Pojedinec

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2116
    • View Profile
Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2020, 01:03:13 PM »
Does this forum have an ignore option?

It does, but unfortunately you still see the person wrote something and you have the option of clicking a button to read the reply.
My curiosity gets me every time, so it isn’t a good ignore button sadly.

Shame to be honest.

frnkeore

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1128
    • View Profile
Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2020, 01:25:55 PM »
Quote
Also to address your comment that Ford copied the BBC head design...Just because Ford used a "canted" valve arraignment similar to the BB Chevy but thats where the similarity ends. It does not mean they copied it.

Really? Really you believe that?? I can only shake my head in disbelief  :o

Regardless of the car, all other things equal, a car with a better hp to weight, will win. That's just the facts.

I'm NOT criticizing anyone's car! To each, his own! I personally like cars that go fast in a straight line and around curves, easier to do in a light car. I've had my share of big cars and medium size, too. '58 Edsel, '60 Galaxy, '65 2+2 Mustang and '64 Fairlane. I liked them all but, my best money spent and most fun I had, was  on a 200 hp 4 cyl, 1000 lb car. If that car broke at the track (and it did a few times), I had a trailer to bring it home.

I wasn't aware that this forum was only about big cars, I joined it because it was about the FE engine, the only BBF for me.
Frank

RJP

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2020, 01:55:52 PM »
Shake your head all you want, all your going to do is give yourself a headache...GM/Chevy did not invent the canted valve arraignment. I'm sure if you look hard enough you can find a 2 plane valve arraignment going back to the 20th century teens/early 20s but I'm not going to do your homework for you. This forum is about ALL FE powered cars, trucks, boats, etc [Not just the lightweight ones] but the OP asked about using another FORD engine family that I'd like to think he got the most accurate answer possible. And as I've said in a previous post I am a diehard Ford fan with my main focus on FE's and 385 engines. To me if it is Ford I like it...Chevy...not so much. Its perfectly fine with me if the FE is the only big block for you...I dare say others are a bit more broad minded than you.     

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4801
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2020, 02:02:22 PM »
Does this forum have an ignore option?

It does, but unfortunately you still see the person wrote something and you have the option of clicking a button to read the reply.
My curiosity gets me every time, so it isn’t a good ignore button sadly.

Shame to be honest.

I'm looking, where is it?  I need some relief.

EDIT....Never mind, found it. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

Joe-JDC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1489
  • Truth stands on its own merit.
    • View Profile
Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2020, 02:13:08 PM »
Frank, it seems you have to argue with everyone who disagrees with your answers.  I did go to EMC, have been in several, and was there to witness Blair's win.  Not to take anything away from Blair's build, but the win was one sparkplug away from second place.  I personally helped dyno test the 2nd place 289 after the EMC challenge to find why it had a stubborn miss and was not pulling cleanly on each pull.  They changed the plugs before the competition and never had a chance to test after the plug change.  During the challenge they ASSUMED the plugs were all good, and one wasn't.  We found the bad plug on dyno testing, and after installing a fresh plug, that little 289 pulled cleanly to 7300 rpm on several pulls.  Made 479 hp and if it had made those pulls cleanly at EMC, it would have come out on top.  Just the facts.  Some days you win, some days you lose.  I like the FE, but I am not going to say it is the best Ford engine since I have owned most of the variations of them since 1962 and built and raced them since 1969.  I stand by my statement that with 10K, the 460 will run away from the FE in power production.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

frnkeore

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1128
    • View Profile
Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2020, 03:11:22 PM »
Joe,
Thanks for the update on Mummert's engine. I had read that he had ignition problems but, thought he had improved it before the test. I'm extremely glad that to hear that he would have won. It actually helps my case that you don't need canted valves to make better HP. I think Kaase may be going with maybe a 260? At the next competition. A 5 bolt block, at least. Not sure on that, we'll have to see.

Joe, these are my opinions, based on open competition (all comers) but, not all out, max HP effort (something streetable) and what you might expect from a 460 ci engine, as that's about all you can get from a 428 block. Everyone gets one, don't they or am I excluded? If it's max HP then we would have to be talking about 4 valve engines, would we not. Ford makes those, too. How many would care to compete with that 8 second, 338 ci, 4V that was recently posted? A answer like.......Why bother with either engine when the 4v modular engine is available, cheap.

I cop to me being opinionated but, so are 98% of the people that post on this forum.
Frank

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4801
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2020, 04:15:05 PM »
n/m
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 04:22:21 PM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

Drew Pojedinec

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2116
    • View Profile
Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2020, 04:31:45 PM »
n/m

You just had to read it didn’t you?



frnkeore

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1128
    • View Profile
Re: 428 versus 460
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2020, 04:33:02 PM »
 ;D  :-X
Frank