428 versus 460

[Thumperbird]

Just a general question here:

Let's say someone has a $10k budget and picks up a core for cheap, if one were to utilzie that $10k well in terms of maximizing cubes, moderate street cam, intake, aluminum heads, headers, etc., which engine comes out on top torque and HP wise and by how much?

In other words why would you or would you not build a 460 for a non-origianl application where either engine is an easy install?

Thanks.

[My427stang]

If we are talking 385 series 460, the 10K budget would likely get you much farther.  Rotating assembly is cheaper and most if not all 429/460 factory heads flow as much as an Edelbrock. 

The 460 will be heavier no matter what, but I think it would be hard for a dollar for dollar 428 to keep up with a 460 (given proper parts choice and equal spending)

I love FEs, and didn't want a heavy engine in my Mustang, but in hindsight, the F100 was a natural for a big inch Lima and would have made even more power.  In the end though, had lots of FE stuff laying around and no 460 stuff LOL

[Drew Pojedinec]

Any 460 block can become a 521, and there is a serious high flow cylinder head selection for the 460 based engines.

No one says “I want to build the most power, I should start with an FE.”

[Joe-JDC]

A 460 will be 150 hp ahead of any FE with same amount of money applied.  I have a Motorsports 460 stock shortblock 11:5, with Motorsports aluminum heads that is complete oil pan to distributor with Victor, MSD, etc.  650 hp.  No way to build a new FE for what I have in that all new 460 cubic inch engine.  If I had wanted to start fresh with a 429 SCJ block and stroker, I could have built 557 CI for nearly the same amount, and made 800 hp.  $10K with smart shopping can buy a lot of good parts and machine work when working with a 460 base engine.   Joe-JDC

[Tommy-T]

On topic to the original post, the 429-460 motor is huge compared to an FE. Significantly heavier too. But it's Big Block Chevy like architecture allows a much higher horsepower potential. I call it the blue rat.

The FE motor has pedigree and that's why most of us here mess with it. 427's are cool, and with 4.25 cranks readily available 500 horsepower is no problem even with mild cam profiles and a 390 block. That's more power than the vintage cars that came with FE motors can handle without significant modifications. 

[frnkeore]

If you limit the build to ~460 CI (.030 over 428 x 4.25 crank/462), I think you can have similar or even more HP. That statement is based on how well FE's have done in the EMC competition, using stock heads as a base. Add in TF, ported  heads (or Jays) and the best of intakes and it may even keep up with aftermarket 385 heads, to a CI point.

The FE was and still is, the only BBF to me. Other than drag racing there no real competition for BB's so, for me, regarding racing, weight to HP will get you there faster at less than Pro level. I'm not a fan of large CI, high HP cars on the road, you just can't use what you have, until you get to a track and then the light weight car, with 60 less CI, will blow you off at the track.

[RJP]

The 385 series engine is about the same width as a FE. The big difference is in length due in part to the 4.90" bore center block. When I did a FE to 385 swap in my 60 Starliner I had to move the radiator forward about 1.5" As for torque/power the 385 is head & shoulders above the FE. With that said I am a die hard FE freak but I'm also practical. I needed a bullet proof reliable engine that doesn't cost a bizillon dollars to build, make plenty of hp and even if it did eat itself I'm not out a rare sideoiler block and perhaps some unobtainium heads. The 385 is cheap and easy to build with very few quirks unlike the FE. No oiling "tricks" no valve train problems, no issues turning the engine 7500+ rpms. Just bolt it together using decent parts as IMO the only questionable part in the engine is the rods, although I, personally have never had a rod problem. Some say they are prone to breakage mid beam, as said I've never had any problems. 385s are still plentiful and can be had for next to nothing or in some cases free. The last 4 that came to me were in fact free...just go pick it up and get it out of some guy's garage as he is tired of tripping over it or the wife can't get to the washing machine. I run 385 engines in 2 of my V-drive flatbottom boats that are routinely spun 7K+ rpms and if something tragic happens I'm not out mega bucks to replace it. To me thats a win-win.

[Joe-JDC]

If you limit the build to ~460 CI (.030 over 428 x 4.25 crank/462), I think you can have similar or even more HP. That statement is based on how well FE's have done in the EMC competition, using stock heads as a base. Add in TF, ported  heads (or Jays) and the best of intakes and it may even keep up with aftermarket 385 heads, to a CI point.

Sorry to disagree with you.  The FE is one of the hardest engines to get to make horsepower that is out there in a horespower to cubic inch build.  I have ported literally hundreds of Ford heads over the last 48 years, and the FE is the absolutely hardest to get real air flow out of.  A stock oval port 460 head will outperform just about any FE head on the market today with a good porting.  A CJ or SCJ head will definitely outflow the FE even with the supposedly poor exhaust port.  I would gladly accept your challenge to build a 462 FE with iron heads, and let me build my 460 +.030 and see just who will come out on top.  The point is, though, with a 4.250 stroke, the 460 becomes a 514 cubic inch engine with just a .030" overbore.  The 460 can take a 4.500 stroke and come up with 545 CI, and if you go to the 4.440" bore, 557 CI.  If you want to talk aftermarket, then the 460 jumps into another category above the FE with heads avaliable.  No brainer IMO.  Joe-JDC

[frnkeore]

Hi Joe,
What I am talking about, is based on the EMC engines that both Kaase and Blair built for that competition and based on a ~460 CI max size, as that is what the OP is talking about, with his 428.

I believe Blair's almost 600 HP out of a little less than 400 CI, beat all comers, including the BBC heads that Ford copied for the 429/460, 385. Is that correct?

I'm talking with a head porter, right now that tells me, that even though the stock FE's ex port is bad, the 460's is worse and flows not much more than a SBF. It was hard to believe, with the 460's much larger ex valve but, that's what his flow bench showed.

To my other point, what do you do, with a 545/557 engine, on the street, rather than have bragging rights for the biggest engine? That power can't be used for more than about 3 seconds and there, the car with the best traction will win, with street tires. Not easy to get a street tire to hook up in a 3500 lb car with over 700 HP. I would bet on a SBF 427 Cobra for that. It might be close but, that would be my bet.

Those are just my opinions but, HP/weight, will win in at least the first 2/3 to 3/4 of the 1/4 mi and it takes a hell of a lot of HP to over come that.

A drag racing example:
550 hp 332 in a 2200 lb Falcon = 4 lb per HP

800 HP 557 in a 3500 lb Mustang or Fairlane = 4.375 lb per hp.

The Mustang may come on stronger at the end but, which will win?

Frontal area comes in to play, on the top end, too. The Falcon has less of it.

The 306 that I'm building at ~500 hp, setting in a 1300 lb car gives 2.6 lb per hp, how would the 800 hp/3500 lb car, do against that?

My biggest point is, I guess, is what good is that 800 hp on the street, even if you can get past the next gas pump?

[frnkeore]

I just went back and re-read the OP and underlined the part that's important, to him:

moderate street cam, intake, aluminum heads, headers, etc., which engine comes out on top torque and HP wise and by how much?

Will a 400 cfm 385 head, help this build? How much head flow do you need for this type of build? Will lower end torque be important to his build?

[67xr7cat]

Replying the OP question only reason to go FE over a 385

Weight - 385 is heavier
Size - 385 is longer, slightly taller, and wider.  It just does not fit well in some places like a 67-70 Mustang/Cougar. I had a 460 in one and would not recommend it except for drag race only car.
Nostalgia - FE is full of it and also has some period correct old timey intakes and valve covers that don't exist in the 385 world

The FE looses to the SB/Cleveland when comes to size and weight

The FE looses to the 385 when comes to making HP.

A 385 has a 4.36" bore stock and any block will hand 700hp. Heads stock intake flow around 280, exh about 130, but not hard to get them up to 180 or so. Reality is intake flow more important make power. A 500 hp 460 not hard to do with factory heads and block. D0OE-R CJ heads have made upwards of 900 hp which puts it as one of the most capable of factory heads. I have a set of CJ heads that flow 370 on the intake and it does not really take much to get them there. Of course are a lot of good aftermarket heads available today.  Cost no more than for a FE . Main down fall over the years really have been the intake manifolds. There are some good ones today, but a lot of the older stuff needs work. I'd say the victor was the 1st good intake.

Stroker cranks for the most part just drop in. A 547ci just requires a 4.5" stroker and a .030" overbore.  There have been bigger using a 4.75" stroker and a 4.5" bore (very few stock blocks will bore this size, but it has been done) that is 605 ci.  Aftermarket blocks can go to a 4.7" bore for 660 ci so the 385 series are easy cubic inches.

[475fetoploader]

I think if you’re not building an f.e. because you think they’re cool, than just build a 460. I’m putting a fairly expensive sideoiler together. Because I love them, because my dad raced one, because of nostalgia. When I was just wanting to go fast, I built a big block chevy. If you just want to go fast, and a 460 will fit, I’d put a big block chevy in it, and not bother with a 460. This is my personal take.

[Rory428]

A  460 based engine is a logical choice for a large Ford engine with good power. That said, I guess I must be a logical person. For my type of racing, I know several guys with 460 based engines, and with a similar build, (stock block, crank, heads, flat tappet cam etc) my 428s and 427 run at least as well as the majority of these mildish builds. For a well over 500 cube engine with lots of aftermarket parts, looking for big power (750+ HP), a 460 based platform make sense, but again, since thats not what I am after, my FEs have served me well for many years. And being a purist, putting a non Ford engine in a Ford vehicle ain`t ever gonna happen. I guess I like to swim upstream, even when it comes to small block Fords, my 331 flat tappet pump gas SBF holds its head up fairly well with the majority of 351W based engines at the local dragstrips. 351W and 460s seem to be by far the most common engine choices for local Ford racers, so do automatics. I guess some of us don`t tend to take the easy or most popular route. The FE engine has a rich racing history that the 351W and 460 never had and never will. Logical Not at all, and with guys like Jay, Blair, Barry et all, and events like the FERR, I am just fine being an "oddball" FE guy.

[frnkeore]

Where is that like button 

[blykins]

BBF will make more power.   Not even a contest.