Author Topic: Pushrods/oiling  (Read 5674 times)

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HarleyJack17

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Pushrods/oiling
« on: April 02, 2020, 07:49:22 PM »
Running Morel rollers and OEM non-Adjustables. Was sent some push rods that are set up for oiling(hole in the ball ends). Heads are not restricted (BBM). How big of an over oiling issue is this? Is there a "fix" besides new pushrods that will be easy/reliable. Tia.

blykins

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Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2020, 07:15:37 AM »
I'd say you're getting a ton of oil up top. 

You're essentially oiling full speed ahead from the head feed and you're shooting a stream of oil out of the pushrods as well. 







If you look at the above pictures, you will see that there's not a full annular groove in the fulcrum of the rocker arm like modern rockers designed to oil through the pushrods.  This rocker is designed to pass oil coming from the rocker shaft feeds on the bottom of the shaft, through the groove, and up to the pushrod tip.  This will also throw some oil up towards the valve covers at rpm, which will rain back down on the valve springs.   

You will also note in the pictures how the oil passages are drilled.   Any oil coming up through a full oiling pushrod will shoot straight up through the rocker arm with no impedance.   You will essentially have a "bleeder" right there. 

If I were in your shoes, I would put an .080" restrictor in the head and snag a set of non-oiling pushrods.  The bad thing is, on a BBM head, the rocker stud thread insert partially blocks the feed hole, so that has to be clearanced before you can tap the hole or get a clear shot to shove something in there. 

« Last Edit: April 03, 2020, 07:22:48 AM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
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blykins

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Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2020, 07:19:19 AM »
If you want to see the top holes in the rocker arms in action, you can watch this video.   This is a video I took to show an internal water leak, but if you watch, you can see the oil bouncing off the top of the valve cover and running down when the dyno pull gets going.  If you can imagine full oiling pushrods, you'd be getting a massive hemorrhage coming out of the tops of the rockers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfhEuGwkYb8
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
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HarleyJack17

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Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2020, 08:01:24 AM »
Thanks for the info...pretty much answers my question about the OE rockers and oil path, was pretty obvious when you see the hole above the PR ball. I need the correct pushrods at a minimum. 

Yellow Truck

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Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2020, 11:17:14 AM »
This actually answers a question I've had - on my BBM heads the two oil passages were different dimensions one head to the other. Clearly they were clearanced by hand before I got them, and one was cut back a little more. The result is that one restrictor sits up in the passage and the other sank out of sight.

I can say that with adjustable T&D rockers and Morels with oiling pushrods and a 0.060 restrictor I'm getting my heads soaked in oil.

Brent advised me on another thread to put in plugs so stop oiling the rockers.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

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My427stang

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Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2020, 01:59:20 PM »
Let me add to what Brent said, he was there when I put my truck engine on the dyno.

I had no restrictors in stock heads and I was pushrod oiling.  During cam break in I saw the oil pressure drop to 15 psi.  Ironic thing is, when we shut it down, there was no oil on the dipstick.  After a quick look on the floor for a puddle, which there was none, I checked the oil and it was not zero, it was 2 quarts low, then 1, then full.  At a steady 3000 rpm, it emptied the 4x4 rear sump pan VERY quickly.  What I did was stick a couple of 5/16 plugs in the feed holes and went pushrod oiling with Brent's rockers

Because you can't lube the shafts through stock rockers, I would replace pushrods
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- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

HarleyJack17

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Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2020, 03:27:07 PM »
This also helps add to why we pumped the pan dry on the dyno..... I remember when I built it that it was not right but for some reason I just went with it....lot going on at the time.  Add this to the not so good pan design on the Canton 4x4 pan and wall-ah.  Just something else that needs to be addressed before putting it in the truck.  I may get a little creative and figure out a way to restrict the oil feed in the head since I will be digging into it.

Thanks for the replies.  Would have been nice if the solution was just stop the oil feed up and plug the top hole of the rockers.....anyone need some pushrods LOL.

TorinoSCJ69

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Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2020, 08:28:35 AM »
Jay Brown's book points to oil levels in pan during dyno runs at cruising speed as low as 2 qts (he started with 6)  without the  drip rails  that get the oil off the heads faster.
Those rails do not easily work with Pr Oil Pump end stands but I made it happen after reading (pg 232 -235) that grim info.
Keeping the oil rails brought the pan level to 3 qts at cruising rpms.

Just my 2 cents.

My427stang

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Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2020, 08:44:27 AM »
In theory, I would think that you could plug the oil holes on the rocker given the pictures  and it should force oil to the shaft.  However, I would be concerned of a few things. 

1 - How do you plug all those holes without damaging or distorting the pushrod cup
2 - How do you plug them in general, certainly would take a lot more time and risk than just getting some solid pushrods
3 - Would the oil adequately flow to the shafts (Brent's rockers have significantly more groove in the busing

I love the idea of modifying the stock ones on paper, but wouldn't want to be the guy doing it or having to stand behind it

Buying new pushrods will sting just once, but you'll bolt it together and forget it
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

blykins

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Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2020, 08:52:57 AM »
Jay Brown's book points to oil levels in pan during dyno runs at cruising speed as low as 2 qts (he started with 6)  without the  drip rails  that get the oil off the heads faster.
Those rails do not easily work with Pr Oil Pump end stands but I made it happen after reading (pg 232 -235) that grim info.
Keeping the oil rails brought the pan level to 3 qts at cruising rpms.

Just my 2 cents.

It's not grim info.  There are other factors that go into how quickly the oil returns to the pan and how quickly it gets pumped to parts of the engine.  If you don't restrict and have wide open holes in every orifice, you will quickly move a lot of oil, especially with a HV pump. 

I have never used a set of drip rails in any FE I've ever built and don't plan to.  I don't see the need in them.  Back in the 60's when the top of every cylinder head was packed with sludge, they served a purpose, but in modern days with modern engine building techniques, they serve no purpose. 

How much oil do you need in the pan at any given time?  3 quarts?  4 quarts?  It's a non-issue as long as the pickup is covered at all times and you can see oil pressure climb throughout a run or pull. 

Now, with all of that being said, guys get very upset when I state the things I do.  I don't care one way or the other whether you use them or not, but I will assure you that they are not needed and I have triple digit numbers of FE's circulating in the world to prove it.   As a matter of fact, in the video I posted up above, you will see that the top of the head is not flooded with oil and that engine didn't have drip rails either.  There are ways to control it. 
« Last Edit: April 04, 2020, 08:54:55 AM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
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pbf777

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Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2020, 10:31:52 AM »
How much oil do you need in the pan at any given time?  3 quarts?  4 quarts?  It's a non-issue as long as the pickup is covered at all times and you can see oil pressure climb throughout a run or pull. 


     I would agree (within the limited scope of the reference) the sum of oil present would be a "non-issue", as long as the oil pressure climbed throughout the run or pull, but, with basically stock O.E.M. oil delivery and recovery systems, generally most performance build, particularly big block engines see a loss in pressure towards the end of a long high R.P.M. pull, for a number of reasons.  Often one reason observed is the reduction of volume in the sump which in many an engineering design will increase the distance and lift requirement on the low pressure or suction side of the pump resulting in a loss of delivery, and perhaps even cavitation event, this even if the pick-up remains submerged.

     There are several other reasons to want to maintain a reasonable oil volume in excess of solely the pumping volume requirements in the sump, and perhaps the statement of it doesn't matter as long as the oil pressure only increases as one proceeds may cover most, but I'm only trying in this singular example to signify that this implied lack of concern may not present the best modus operandi.          :)

      Scott.

Yellow Truck

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Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2020, 10:57:49 AM »

I have never used a set of drip rails in any FE I've ever built and don't plan to.  I don't see the need in them.  Back in the 60's when the top of every cylinder head was packed with sludge, they served a purpose, but in modern days with modern engine building techniques, they serve no purpose. 

...and I have triple digit numbers of FE's circulating in the world to prove it.   

Well I feel better now about having chucked mine in the single engine I have ever built.

I am thinking about pulling the rockers and plugging the oil passages rather than just restricting them as they are now. Having finally got the rocker adjustments in a good place I hate to revisit the problem, but reducing oil in the head is a good thing.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

blykins

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Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2020, 11:14:45 AM »
How much oil do you need in the pan at any given time?  3 quarts?  4 quarts?  It's a non-issue as long as the pickup is covered at all times and you can see oil pressure climb throughout a run or pull. 


     I would agree (within the limited scope of the reference) the sum of oil present would be a "non-issue", as long as the oil pressure climbed throughout the run or pull, but, with basically stock O.E.M. oil delivery and recovery systems, generally most performance build, particularly big block engines see a loss in pressure towards the end of a long high R.P.M. pull, for a number of reasons.  Often one reason observed is the reduction of volume in the sump which in many an engineering design will increase the distance and lift requirement on the low pressure or suction side of the pump resulting in a loss of delivery, and perhaps even cavitation event, this even if the pick-up remains submerged.

     There are several other reasons to want to maintain a reasonable oil volume in excess of solely the pumping volume requirements in the sump, and perhaps the statement of it doesn't matter as long as the oil pressure only increases as one proceeds may cover most, but I'm only trying in this singular example to signify that this implied lack of concern may not present the best modus operandi.          :)

      Scott.

I didn't mean to imply a complete lack of concern, but I didn't want guys to get fixated on a specific quantity of oil that they need in the pan, because there's lots of variables. 

In addition, I'd rather control how much oil is *needed* to supply the needs of the engine.  This is achieved with bearing clearances, restrictors, the style of oil pump, etc.  A lot of guys think they have to use a HV pump in every scenario, which isn't the case. 

I just browsed through a couple of high rpm FE dyno sheets.  Both went to 7200-7500 rpm and had a steady increase of oil pressure, with exception of a 2-3 psi flicker at the top.   Both were using Milodon 7 quart front sump pans and HV pumps.  One was a solid flat tappet, the other a hydraulic roller, which has a volumetric supply need. 

No drip tins in either. :)
Brent Lykins
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Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
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cammerfe

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Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2020, 01:38:07 PM »
I would think that for really high RPM builds, the answer would be a dry sump system. For ultimate durability, that was the FoMoCo answer. The 427s at LeMans had them.

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My427stang

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Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2020, 03:38:28 PM »
I am a tin guy out of old habits, but I will say one thing, I don't think they do much anymore other than maintain decent geometry as a shim

When they were designed you had umbrella seals, GM had o-rings, and you had to avoid pooling and keep oil away from the valve seal.  If the guide was bathed, the seal did nothing

Today, it may direct a little bit back, but I will say once you crush the ends for end stands, it likely doesn't do as much.  That being said, even if they were incredibly effective, they do little to force more oil to the mains and cam.  By restricting and using a modern valve seal, the rest of the engine gets a bit more oil, and in the end, likely lives a longer life.

I still use them, but now it's primarily for nostalgia and to have a nearly free rocker pedestal shim.  I can't see any real requirement for them. 
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch