Author Topic: Pushrods/oiling  (Read 5728 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

HarleyJack17

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
    • View Profile
Pushrods/oiling
« on: April 02, 2020, 07:49:22 PM »
Running Morel rollers and OEM non-Adjustables. Was sent some push rods that are set up for oiling(hole in the ball ends). Heads are not restricted (BBM). How big of an over oiling issue is this? Is there a "fix" besides new pushrods that will be easy/reliable. Tia.

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4822
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2020, 07:15:37 AM »
I'd say you're getting a ton of oil up top. 

You're essentially oiling full speed ahead from the head feed and you're shooting a stream of oil out of the pushrods as well. 







If you look at the above pictures, you will see that there's not a full annular groove in the fulcrum of the rocker arm like modern rockers designed to oil through the pushrods.  This rocker is designed to pass oil coming from the rocker shaft feeds on the bottom of the shaft, through the groove, and up to the pushrod tip.  This will also throw some oil up towards the valve covers at rpm, which will rain back down on the valve springs.   

You will also note in the pictures how the oil passages are drilled.   Any oil coming up through a full oiling pushrod will shoot straight up through the rocker arm with no impedance.   You will essentially have a "bleeder" right there. 

If I were in your shoes, I would put an .080" restrictor in the head and snag a set of non-oiling pushrods.  The bad thing is, on a BBM head, the rocker stud thread insert partially blocks the feed hole, so that has to be clearanced before you can tap the hole or get a clear shot to shove something in there. 

« Last Edit: April 03, 2020, 07:22:48 AM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4822
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2020, 07:19:19 AM »
If you want to see the top holes in the rocker arms in action, you can watch this video.   This is a video I took to show an internal water leak, but if you watch, you can see the oil bouncing off the top of the valve cover and running down when the dyno pull gets going.  If you can imagine full oiling pushrods, you'd be getting a massive hemorrhage coming out of the tops of the rockers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfhEuGwkYb8
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

HarleyJack17

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
    • View Profile
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2020, 08:01:24 AM »
Thanks for the info...pretty much answers my question about the OE rockers and oil path, was pretty obvious when you see the hole above the PR ball. I need the correct pushrods at a minimum. 

Yellow Truck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 608
    • View Profile
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2020, 11:17:14 AM »
This actually answers a question I've had - on my BBM heads the two oil passages were different dimensions one head to the other. Clearly they were clearanced by hand before I got them, and one was cut back a little more. The result is that one restrictor sits up in the passage and the other sank out of sight.

I can say that with adjustable T&D rockers and Morels with oiling pushrods and a 0.060 restrictor I'm getting my heads soaked in oil.

Brent advised me on another thread to put in plugs so stop oiling the rockers.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3929
    • View Profile
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2020, 01:59:20 PM »
Let me add to what Brent said, he was there when I put my truck engine on the dyno.

I had no restrictors in stock heads and I was pushrod oiling.  During cam break in I saw the oil pressure drop to 15 psi.  Ironic thing is, when we shut it down, there was no oil on the dipstick.  After a quick look on the floor for a puddle, which there was none, I checked the oil and it was not zero, it was 2 quarts low, then 1, then full.  At a steady 3000 rpm, it emptied the 4x4 rear sump pan VERY quickly.  What I did was stick a couple of 5/16 plugs in the feed holes and went pushrod oiling with Brent's rockers

Because you can't lube the shafts through stock rockers, I would replace pushrods
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

HarleyJack17

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
    • View Profile
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2020, 03:27:07 PM »
This also helps add to why we pumped the pan dry on the dyno..... I remember when I built it that it was not right but for some reason I just went with it....lot going on at the time.  Add this to the not so good pan design on the Canton 4x4 pan and wall-ah.  Just something else that needs to be addressed before putting it in the truck.  I may get a little creative and figure out a way to restrict the oil feed in the head since I will be digging into it.

Thanks for the replies.  Would have been nice if the solution was just stop the oil feed up and plug the top hole of the rockers.....anyone need some pushrods LOL.

TorinoSCJ69

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2020, 08:28:35 AM »
Jay Brown's book points to oil levels in pan during dyno runs at cruising speed as low as 2 qts (he started with 6)  without the  drip rails  that get the oil off the heads faster.
Those rails do not easily work with Pr Oil Pump end stands but I made it happen after reading (pg 232 -235) that grim info.
Keeping the oil rails brought the pan level to 3 qts at cruising rpms.

Just my 2 cents.

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3929
    • View Profile
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2020, 08:44:27 AM »
In theory, I would think that you could plug the oil holes on the rocker given the pictures  and it should force oil to the shaft.  However, I would be concerned of a few things. 

1 - How do you plug all those holes without damaging or distorting the pushrod cup
2 - How do you plug them in general, certainly would take a lot more time and risk than just getting some solid pushrods
3 - Would the oil adequately flow to the shafts (Brent's rockers have significantly more groove in the busing

I love the idea of modifying the stock ones on paper, but wouldn't want to be the guy doing it or having to stand behind it

Buying new pushrods will sting just once, but you'll bolt it together and forget it
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4822
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2020, 08:52:57 AM »
Jay Brown's book points to oil levels in pan during dyno runs at cruising speed as low as 2 qts (he started with 6)  without the  drip rails  that get the oil off the heads faster.
Those rails do not easily work with Pr Oil Pump end stands but I made it happen after reading (pg 232 -235) that grim info.
Keeping the oil rails brought the pan level to 3 qts at cruising rpms.

Just my 2 cents.

It's not grim info.  There are other factors that go into how quickly the oil returns to the pan and how quickly it gets pumped to parts of the engine.  If you don't restrict and have wide open holes in every orifice, you will quickly move a lot of oil, especially with a HV pump. 

I have never used a set of drip rails in any FE I've ever built and don't plan to.  I don't see the need in them.  Back in the 60's when the top of every cylinder head was packed with sludge, they served a purpose, but in modern days with modern engine building techniques, they serve no purpose. 

How much oil do you need in the pan at any given time?  3 quarts?  4 quarts?  It's a non-issue as long as the pickup is covered at all times and you can see oil pressure climb throughout a run or pull. 

Now, with all of that being said, guys get very upset when I state the things I do.  I don't care one way or the other whether you use them or not, but I will assure you that they are not needed and I have triple digit numbers of FE's circulating in the world to prove it.   As a matter of fact, in the video I posted up above, you will see that the top of the head is not flooded with oil and that engine didn't have drip rails either.  There are ways to control it. 
« Last Edit: April 04, 2020, 08:54:55 AM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

pbf777

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 490
    • View Profile
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2020, 10:31:52 AM »
How much oil do you need in the pan at any given time?  3 quarts?  4 quarts?  It's a non-issue as long as the pickup is covered at all times and you can see oil pressure climb throughout a run or pull. 


     I would agree (within the limited scope of the reference) the sum of oil present would be a "non-issue", as long as the oil pressure climbed throughout the run or pull, but, with basically stock O.E.M. oil delivery and recovery systems, generally most performance build, particularly big block engines see a loss in pressure towards the end of a long high R.P.M. pull, for a number of reasons.  Often one reason observed is the reduction of volume in the sump which in many an engineering design will increase the distance and lift requirement on the low pressure or suction side of the pump resulting in a loss of delivery, and perhaps even cavitation event, this even if the pick-up remains submerged.

     There are several other reasons to want to maintain a reasonable oil volume in excess of solely the pumping volume requirements in the sump, and perhaps the statement of it doesn't matter as long as the oil pressure only increases as one proceeds may cover most, but I'm only trying in this singular example to signify that this implied lack of concern may not present the best modus operandi.          :)

      Scott.

Yellow Truck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 608
    • View Profile
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2020, 10:57:49 AM »

I have never used a set of drip rails in any FE I've ever built and don't plan to.  I don't see the need in them.  Back in the 60's when the top of every cylinder head was packed with sludge, they served a purpose, but in modern days with modern engine building techniques, they serve no purpose. 

...and I have triple digit numbers of FE's circulating in the world to prove it.   

Well I feel better now about having chucked mine in the single engine I have ever built.

I am thinking about pulling the rockers and plugging the oil passages rather than just restricting them as they are now. Having finally got the rocker adjustments in a good place I hate to revisit the problem, but reducing oil in the head is a good thing.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4822
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2020, 11:14:45 AM »
How much oil do you need in the pan at any given time?  3 quarts?  4 quarts?  It's a non-issue as long as the pickup is covered at all times and you can see oil pressure climb throughout a run or pull. 


     I would agree (within the limited scope of the reference) the sum of oil present would be a "non-issue", as long as the oil pressure climbed throughout the run or pull, but, with basically stock O.E.M. oil delivery and recovery systems, generally most performance build, particularly big block engines see a loss in pressure towards the end of a long high R.P.M. pull, for a number of reasons.  Often one reason observed is the reduction of volume in the sump which in many an engineering design will increase the distance and lift requirement on the low pressure or suction side of the pump resulting in a loss of delivery, and perhaps even cavitation event, this even if the pick-up remains submerged.

     There are several other reasons to want to maintain a reasonable oil volume in excess of solely the pumping volume requirements in the sump, and perhaps the statement of it doesn't matter as long as the oil pressure only increases as one proceeds may cover most, but I'm only trying in this singular example to signify that this implied lack of concern may not present the best modus operandi.          :)

      Scott.

I didn't mean to imply a complete lack of concern, but I didn't want guys to get fixated on a specific quantity of oil that they need in the pan, because there's lots of variables. 

In addition, I'd rather control how much oil is *needed* to supply the needs of the engine.  This is achieved with bearing clearances, restrictors, the style of oil pump, etc.  A lot of guys think they have to use a HV pump in every scenario, which isn't the case. 

I just browsed through a couple of high rpm FE dyno sheets.  Both went to 7200-7500 rpm and had a steady increase of oil pressure, with exception of a 2-3 psi flicker at the top.   Both were using Milodon 7 quart front sump pans and HV pumps.  One was a solid flat tappet, the other a hydraulic roller, which has a volumetric supply need. 

No drip tins in either. :)
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

cammerfe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1659
    • View Profile
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2020, 01:38:07 PM »
I would think that for really high RPM builds, the answer would be a dry sump system. For ultimate durability, that was the FoMoCo answer. The 427s at LeMans had them.

KS

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3929
    • View Profile
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2020, 03:38:28 PM »
I am a tin guy out of old habits, but I will say one thing, I don't think they do much anymore other than maintain decent geometry as a shim

When they were designed you had umbrella seals, GM had o-rings, and you had to avoid pooling and keep oil away from the valve seal.  If the guide was bathed, the seal did nothing

Today, it may direct a little bit back, but I will say once you crush the ends for end stands, it likely doesn't do as much.  That being said, even if they were incredibly effective, they do little to force more oil to the mains and cam.  By restricting and using a modern valve seal, the rest of the engine gets a bit more oil, and in the end, likely lives a longer life.

I still use them, but now it's primarily for nostalgia and to have a nearly free rocker pedestal shim.  I can't see any real requirement for them. 
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

pbf777

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 490
    • View Profile
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2020, 11:25:41 AM »
I just browsed through a couple of high rpm FE dyno sheets.  Both went to 7200-7500 rpm and had a steady increase of oil pressure, with exception of a 2-3 psi flicker at the top. 


     Not generally practiced in your typical dyno testing, but now hold that FE at that R.P.M. under load, as though your running the 1/2 or 1 mile drags, or perhaps even as if your on the back stretch at Daytona!  I bet it won't hold a steady pressure for long, and you'll have to decide when to let-up.          :o

     Scott.

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4822
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2020, 11:31:09 AM »


I just browsed through a couple of high rpm FE dyno sheets.  Both went to 7200-7500 rpm and had a steady increase of oil pressure, with exception of a 2-3 psi flicker at the top. 


     Not generally practiced in your typical dyno testing, but now hold that FE at that R.P.M. under load, as though your running the 1/2 or 1 mile drags, or perhaps even as if your on the back stretch at Daytona!  I bet it won't hold a steady pressure for long, and you'll have to decide when to let-up.          :o

     Scott.

You'd actually be surprised.  I've got some FE and BBF pulling truck engines out there that basically spin almost at WOT for 20-25 seconds straight.   They hold in there pretty well. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

frnkeore

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1135
    • View Profile
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2020, 01:11:01 PM »
My question is: why are people going to push rod oiling? Is it because after market, non adjustable rockers are easier/cheaper to make that way?

Is there a weakness in the original rocker arm system, including oiling, that I don't know about?

It seems to me, that with the FE having a problem with valve train weight, to begin with, adding oil to the push rods, is counter productive and has it's own problems, such as the over oiling, that's talked about.

Even with a dry sump, I wouldn't feel comfortable with so much oil, in the top side of the engine.
Frank

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4822
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2020, 01:38:23 PM »
Pushrod weight has no bearing on anything.   Oil in the pushrod would again, have no bearing on anything.

Also, there shouldn't be over-oiling, in any situation, regardless of whether it's oiled through the head or through the pushrods.  I will even venture to say that it's *harder* to over-oil when you're oiling through the pushrods only, because the lifters meter the oil going through them.  This is especially the case with hydraulic lifters.  Even so, guys over-oil the top end with factory setups all the time. 

Modern rocker arm systems, including my own rocker arms, T&D street, T&D race, etc., use common 5/16" ball tipped pushrods.  All-in-all, pushrods are cheaper and easier to get, without having to custom order ball/cup pushrods, 3/8" ball pushrods, etc. 

Just so you know, Cup engines run dry sump and they run with the valvetrain almost submerged in oil. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

frnkeore

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1135
    • View Profile
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2020, 02:22:24 PM »
Pushrod weight has no bearing on anything.   Oil in the pushrod would again, have no bearing on anything.

Thats news to me. So, you can run solid HTed, steel push rods w/o worrying about how it will effect the springs? The added enercia won't effect opening or closing?

Also, there shouldn't be over-oiling, in any situation, regardless of whether it's oiled through the head or through the pushrods.  I will even venture to say that it's *harder* to over-oil when you're oiling through the pushrods only, because the lifters meter the oil going through them.  This is especially the case with hydraulic lifters.  Even so, guys over-oil the top end with factory setups all the time. 

SBF push rods, have a .080 hole, .080 x 16 = .0802 sq in. A .320 hole, =.0804 sq in. A pretty big leak.

Modern rocker arm systems, including my own rocker arms, T&D street, T&D race, etc., use common 5/16" ball tipped pushrods.  All-in-all, pushrods are cheaper and easier to get, without having to custom order ball/cup pushrods, 3/8" ball pushrods, etc. 

So, it more about the cost of the push rods?

Just so you know, Cup engines run dry sump and they run with the valvetrain almost submerged in oil.

Cup cars, do it with spring oilers, to cool the valve springs so, that they will last 350 - 500 miles @ 9k+ rpm and I believe they pump it back out with the dry sump pump.
Frank

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4822
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2020, 02:54:09 PM »
Pushrod weight has no bearing on anything.   Oil in the pushrod would again, have no bearing on anything.

Thats news to me. So, you can run solid HTed, steel push rods w/o worrying about how it will effect the springs? The added enercia won't effect opening or closing?

Also, there shouldn't be over-oiling, in any situation, regardless of whether it's oiled through the head or through the pushrods.  I will even venture to say that it's *harder* to over-oil when you're oiling through the pushrods only, because the lifters meter the oil going through them.  This is especially the case with hydraulic lifters.  Even so, guys over-oil the top end with factory setups all the time. 

SBF push rods, have a .080 hole, .080 x 16 = .0802 sq in. A .320 hole, =.0804 sq in. A pretty big leak.

Modern rocker arm systems, including my own rocker arms, T&D street, T&D race, etc., use common 5/16" ball tipped pushrods.  All-in-all, pushrods are cheaper and easier to get, without having to custom order ball/cup pushrods, 3/8" ball pushrods, etc. 

So, it more about the cost of the push rods?

Just so you know, Cup engines run dry sump and they run with the valvetrain almost submerged in oil.

Cup cars, do it with spring oilers, to cool the valve springs so, that they will last 350 - 500 miles @ 9k+ rpm and I believe they pump it back out with the dry sump pump.

Frank, things aren't like they used to be 50 years ago.  Guys are running more spring pressure with hydraulic rollers than they were with huge solid flat tappets in the 60's.  You can't just buy a factory replacement pushrod from Melling and expect it to last.  New pushrods are chrome moly steel and typically they are 5/16" or 3/8" .080" wall, but we have run up to 7/16" diameter with a .165" wall thickness.  It absolutely has no bearing on the springs, the valves, or anything else. 

A SBF pushrod can have anything up to .100" orifice, but that doesn't mean you have to order them that way.   In addition, in most cases a hydraulic lifter will meter the oil going to the pushrod.  In a solid lifter case, I use restricted pushrods. 

And yes, it's absolutely about the cost of the pushrods and the quality of the pushrods.   If you order a custom set of ball/cup pushrods or 3/8-5/16" ball pushrods, you will pay $200-250.   If you order a set of 5/16" straight tubing pushrods, they are about $125. 

Also, yes again, Cup cars run a dry sump and scavenge from the valve covers in a lot of cases, but the top end is flooded with oil.  Nothing wrong with it.

Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3929
    • View Profile
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2020, 03:00:57 PM »
Another benefit of pushrod oiling is every rocker gets the same amount of oil, unlike a factory setup that bleeds at every rocker in a series and the end rockers can get fed less volume than the ones closer to the feed

« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 09:28:01 PM by My427stang »
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

pbf777

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 490
    • View Profile
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2020, 11:37:34 AM »
You'd actually be surprised.  I've got some FE and BBF pulling truck engines out there that basically spin almost at WOT for 20-25 seconds straight.   They hold in there pretty well.


     Surprised?  Not really, One would expect your product to "hold in there pretty well", or hopefully you'd been run out-a-town by now.        ::)

     But, not intending to attack anyone,     :)     I just was attempting to point out that in anything less than a well thought out and executed with the appropriate components intended for the endeavor engine effort, even so, and particularly in the the Ford FE engine, oil control as some may envision it may prove be somewhat of an illusion.          :o

     Scott.

pbf777

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 490
    • View Profile
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2020, 12:01:00 PM »
Another benefit of pushrod oiling is every rocker gets the same amount of oil, unlike a factory setup that bleeds at every rocker in a series and the end rockers can get fed less volume than the ones closer to the feed


     This is one example of the oil control challenges, and if one understands the O.E.s original intention, then the delivery would be perhaps as reliable as the alternate provided, and perhaps could be regarded as more efficient.  But as is in most any engineering effort there will be deficiencies, my point is this observation is why although popularly practiced, the institution of a "restrictor" for oil control here only exacerbates the problem otherwise.  Simply put, another illusion!          ;)

     Scott.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 12:05:14 PM by pbf777 »

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3929
    • View Profile
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2020, 12:44:22 PM »
Another benefit of pushrod oiling is every rocker gets the same amount of oil, unlike a factory setup that bleeds at every rocker in a series and the end rockers can get fed less volume than the ones closer to the feed


     This is one example of the oil control challenges, and if one understands the O.E.s original intention, then the delivery would be perhaps as reliable as the alternate provided.  But as is in most any engineering effort there will be deficiencies, my point is this observation is why although popularly practiced, the institution of a "restrictor" for oil control here only exacerbates the problem otherwise.  Simply put, another illusion!          ;)



     Scott.

I may be mininterpreting your message, but I don't really buy that any of these are illusions.  We have a 60 year old design, that was, in it's hayday, making 425 horsepower.  Now, mild versions are well above 500 and using completely different components, different journal sizes, more aggressive camshafts, the OE just doesn't cut it.  So good builders correct it.  That being said, I don't think pushrod oiling is required, I really like the idea, but I do think that the 58 Edsel 361 design was inadequate for 550+ hp or thinking that even the CJ "pan lid" windage tray met oil requirements, would be a bigger illusion

Now if your saying that the original FE was adequate for the orginal uses, I'd say absolutely, then I agree completely, and a 200-350 hp motor likely needs absolutely nothing to run all day, but overall building for the intended use, these changes are generally for the better.

---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

frnkeore

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1135
    • View Profile
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2020, 12:52:31 PM »
Quote
New pushrods are chrome moly steel and typically they are 5/16" or 3/8" .080" wall, but we have run up to 7/16" diameter with a .165" wall thickness.  It absolutely has no bearing on the springs, the valves, or anything else.

If this is true, then the weight of the lifter, means nothing also and why do you use aluminum rockers?

I was taught that the weight of everything in the valve train means something and that lighter, w/o failure, increases rpm, given the same spring pressure. Am I wrong there, too?

You talk about 50 years ago well, 50 yrs ago, you had no choice on valve stems and had to run 3/8, today you do but, people still build FE's with 3/8 stems when they should be built with 7mm or 5/16 stems. But, I rarely see that, just a few 11/32 stems, at least on this forum and I consider it the best one for the FE.

Personally, I like the original rocker design and oiling. It did the job "back in the day" at 7K rpm for 500 miles at 80 - 100% throttle, with no oil issues. FE's aren't run that hard today.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 12:58:57 PM by frnkeore »
Frank

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4822
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2020, 01:24:02 PM »
It seems like we get into the same arguments on a regular basis, which basically boils down to the fact that you disagree with how things are done differently today in comparison to "back in the day." 

Concentrate on lightening the valve end of the parts.   The pushrod is on the lifter side, which is only subject to the lobe acceleration.  The rocker arm multiplies this and then acceleration and inertia become super critical.   I would consider the rocker arm moment of inertia to be looped into this, TO THE POINT where you start losing lift because of extreme spring pressure. 

In addition, I don't know any engine builders who give up pushrod strength for weight loss.  A 5/16" .105" pushrod will support up to 750 lbs of open spring pressure, but it will also deflect a great amount in comparison to a 3/8" .135" pushrod.   The more robust the pushrod, the less deflection and less loss of lift at the valve you encounter.   FE's have very long pushrods and this exacerbates the issue. 

Aluminum rockers are nice because they are less expensive to make.  There are companies that make FE tool steel rocker arms and the issue isn't necessarily the weight, but it's the deflection.   Aluminum rocker arms have engineered ratio built into them.  If you've never measured lift at the valve with an aluminum rocker arm and a checking spring, I would suggest that you try it once.  You'll end up with a lot more lift than you should have. 

I will always opt for pushrod oiling on an individual rocker arm.  Not a fan of cylinder head oiling unless they are factory rockers or solid lifter blocks. 

I haven't sent out an FE head (or any other head for that matter) with 3/8" valves in a very long time and I would venture to say that none of the other builders have either.  11/32" is a standard and some of us dabble in smaller diameter valves. 

Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

cjshaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4460
    • View Profile
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2020, 02:26:40 PM »
Good luck, Brent ::) :-X
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

gdaddy01

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 656
    • View Profile
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2020, 03:59:30 PM »
I love the information , I feel I am gaining from all YOUR hard work , Brent

pbf777

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 490
    • View Profile
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2020, 04:51:49 PM »

I may be mininterpreting your message, but I don't really buy that any of these are illusions.  We have a 60 year old design, that was, in it's hayday, making 425 horsepower.  Now, mild versions are well above 500 and using completely different components, different journal sizes, more aggressive camshafts, the OE just doesn't cut it.  So good builders correct it.  That being said, I don't think pushrod oiling is required, I really like the idea, but I do think that the 58 Edsel 361 design was inadequate for 550+ hp or thinking that even the CJ "pan lid" windage tray met oil requirements, would be a bigger illusion

Now if your saying that the original FE was adequate for the original uses, I'd say absolutely, then I agree completely, and a 200-350 hp motor likely needs absolutely nothing to run all day, but overall building for the intended use, these changes are generally for the better.


     In utilizing the example you presented, I was attempting to demonstrate one such "illusion" of the popularly practiced restrictor installation to limit excessive oil loss to the rockers arm system in the FE, these such practices being often because "that's just the way we always done it", for "oil control", and it worked in some instances, just not all, aka we perhaps just created a new problem, this becoming evident particularly if one looks more closely, as in your observation of inequality of oil delivery among the rocker arms.  And actually if you think about which process is more efficient at delivering oil to the rocker arms, whether thru the passage in the block & head to the shafts or thru each individual pushrod and spilled about the rocker, the 1958 Edsel wins hands down, no matter the horse power!            ;)

     Now, I didn't say that the observation of oil losses in the O.E. system as often encountered isn't perhaps excessive, particularly considering availability in some applications, but perhaps other means might be practiced which would enhance the O.E.'s engineering rather than short-circuiting it, as in perhaps the "illusion" of proper oil control created by the simple restrictor.  This is how I intended my previous post to be interpreted.            :)

     Also, there are a lot of different reasons why some components appear in even high dollar engine assemblies that may have nothing to do with being a solution to a particular engineering failure by the O.E., but they often do require significant help.

Scott.
     
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 05:17:06 PM by pbf777 »

HarleyJack17

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
    • View Profile
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2020, 05:13:21 PM »
Wow, this thread keeps up it may cover all the info on FE Oiling system HAHA.  Good info.  I was simply hoping for a cheap and fast fix...cheap meaning $0 but that is not an option. New PR is the best case for me here.  When I started this project Brent's rockers were not around, so you can add new tech/products to the list of reasons why things can change.  The OE system is not "bad" but changes have made room for improvement.  Also, there is always the cost/benefit of what you are doing....you may get to the same destination but how you get there may be easy or hard....l'm a slow learner HAHA.

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3929
    • View Profile
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2020, 05:47:39 PM »

I may be mininterpreting your message, but I don't really buy that any of these are illusions.  We have a 60 year old design, that was, in it's hayday, making 425 horsepower.  Now, mild versions are well above 500 and using completely different components, different journal sizes, more aggressive camshafts, the OE just doesn't cut it.  So good builders correct it.  That being said, I don't think pushrod oiling is required, I really like the idea, but I do think that the 58 Edsel 361 design was inadequate for 550+ hp or thinking that even the CJ "pan lid" windage tray met oil requirements, would be a bigger illusion

Now if your saying that the original FE was adequate for the original uses, I'd say absolutely, then I agree completely, and a 200-350 hp motor likely needs absolutely nothing to run all day, but overall building for the intended use, these changes are generally for the better.


     In utilizing the example you presented, I was attempting to demonstrate one such "illusion" of the popularly practiced restrictor installation to limit excessive oil loss to the rockers arm system in the FE, these such practices being often because "that's just the way we always done it", for "oil control", and it worked in some instances, just not all, aka we perhaps just created a new problem, this becoming evident particularly if one looks more closely, as in your observation of inequality of oil delivery among the rocker arms.  And actually if you think about which process is more efficient at delivering oil to the rocker arms, whether thru the passage in the block & head to the shafts or thru each individual pushrod and spilled about the rocker, the 1958 Edsel wins hands down, no matter the horse power!            ;)

     Now, I didn't say that the observation of oil losses in the O.E. system as often encountered isn't perhaps excessive, particularly considering availability in some applications, but perhaps other means might be practiced which would enhance the O.E.'s engineering rather than short-circuiting it, as in perhaps the "illusion" of proper oil control created by the simple restrictor.  This is how I intended my previous post to be interpreted.            :)

     Also, there are a lot of different reasons why some components appear in even high dollar engine assemblies that may have nothing to do with being a solution to a particular engineering failure by the O.E., but they often do require significant help.

Scott.
   
\

I don't think we agree :)  I do not consider the Edsel better at controlling oil to entire system, to include the  crank, cam and other moving parts, even on a stocker nor do I consider it consistent across all rockers.  I do however, think that if you do not take into account the crank,the cam, or the last rockers in the series on each head, yes, the original system is likely excessive in volume to most of the rockers making it effective

So although the feed may be very effective, it's not efficient because excess oil is better served elsewhere, that is why people restricted, because the entire system gains effectiveness with restriction, and rockers with proper clearance had so much extra oil that  they had room to lose a little to make the entire oil management more effective.  Keep in mind, this is from a guy who doesn't restrict much, and in some cases, not at all

One other thing, I think maybe you are confusing a purpose built rocker with a stock design when you say "spilled about the rocker"  The oil is pushed up the pushrod to a passage in the rocker, through the body, to a radial groove for pressure oiling, it's not like the big bleeds of a stock hydraulic rocker that would erupt upwards. 

What it comes down to is IF you are running hydraulics, and IF you are running the rockers to use it, pushrod oiling is muy bueno...however, the standard old school modifications are still very important with standard rockers, aftermarket or factory,if you want more than a stocker with stocker performance



« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 05:50:06 PM by My427stang »
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

cjshaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4460
    • View Profile
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2020, 07:56:06 PM »
In the case of shaft oiling, rocker clearance is just as critical, if not more so, for metering, than a restrictor in the head. If you have loose rocker clearances, and you start out restricting oil to the heads, you can definitely run the end rockers too dry, as Ross said. It's just my opinion, but I think you need to control oil flow by way of rocker clearance. THEN, if you find out that you're still pushing too much oil, start restricting it. It's typically an easy job on most heads, and a wise choice would be to already have the head prepared for it. Most guys will just slap a shaft system together without giving it much thought. I used to also, but have learned over the years that it's not a good way to do it. Like everything in an engine, details details details.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

pbf777

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 490
    • View Profile
Re: Pushrods/oiling
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2020, 08:12:24 PM »
In the case of shaft oiling, rocker clearance is just as critical, if not more so, for metering, than a restrictor in the head. If you have loose rocker clearances, and you start out restricting oil to the heads, you can definitely run the end rockers too dry,.........................


       Someone give the man an attaboy!    Especially the "if not more so" part.        ;)

       Scott.