out of the box Trick Flow heads vs. ported Edelbrocks?

[blykins]

You gotta look at port volume.  You can get an edelbrock to go 330 cfm, but all the ones I’ve seen have been a lot bigger than 169cc.

My vote is TFS.

What would you guess I would lose, in terms of peak power, with my ported Edelbrocks compared to the TF's, at approximately the 550 hp level?

thanks,

paulie

My guess based on what I’ve seen with the TFS heads versus some ported factory heads, box Survival heads, and box BBM heads, I’d say 20-30 hp.

[My427stang]

Paulie, go check out my 2 CJs on the Dyno forum, one was a 300+ cfm  CJ port the other a stock TFS. Other than that engines were pretty close with the more powerful one being slightly milder

[plovett]

Paulie, go check out my 2 CJs on the Dyno forum, one was a 300+ cfm  CJ port the other a stock TFS. Other than that engines were pretty close with the more powerful one being slightly milder

Those are nice builds.   The TFS ports seem to work very well there.  …..I wonder how the TFS heads match up dimensionally to my intakes?   Both port size and location?  Maybe I'll get out in the garage and look at them.

paulie

[blykins]

[plovett]

Thanks Brent!

I use the 202A's, but I have to trim them to fit my current heads.  I think my intake manifold ports are bigger too, but I will have to look.

paulie

[My427stang]

Paulie, we used a 202A for the TFS and port matched the PI

[plovett]

Paulie, we used a 202A for the TFS and port matched the PI

I am sure the ports on my Edelbrock heads are bigger than the TFS port openings.  So I am wondering if the ports on my intakes are also bigger than the TFS ports.  That would create a mismatch.  I know such combinations are sometimes run successfully.  Bad idea?  I need to go dig out my intakes.

paulie

[My427stang]

Paulie, a couple of comments on this round

1 - Generally guys don't hog a TW out nowadays, however, who knows what guys did to "improve it" back when, it's worth checking to see if either hasn't been opened past medium riser.  I will say though, a step on the bottom isn't a big deal, and honestly even a small one could live fine at that level of HP, but you could likely pretty easily knock down the top and side edges of the TFS head if required.  I'd be less worried about making the port size work that dealing with a sloppy, really hogged out TW.

2 - You are planning a lot of cubes and a lot of cam, 550 hp shouldn't be difficult, and with the Trick Flows, my gut says, with proper parts choice, you'll easily beat that (likely significantly)

3 - Not sure when it will get on the pump given the CV-19 stop movement for us military guys, but I will be putting a TW, 295 cfm ported 457, with much less cam than you discussed (low 240s, but more lift), but should show you what the TW will do with a head about like yours now.  I hope you'll be surprised

4 - I don't think just a stem diameter change and a little bowl/transition work is going to be dramatic to your Edelbrocks, unless the current valve job is crappy and the next one is good.  It will help, but it's not going to gain you big numbers in my opinion. 

5 - Don't forget, if you buy TFS for a solid cam, you will either have to buy bare and buy all components, or buy with springs and change them out, the supplied springs may work with a +.100 Ti retainer and some lock/shim games, but you'd likely start fighting with clearance issues and of course the setup time costs money too.  Certainly just a WAG looking at the spring pressures, and springs aren't that expensive, but it does add to the cost

One thing I would consider is if selling both TWs and the Edels could pay for an unmolested MR dual plane and a portion of the Trick Flows?  Given your effort to tame it down a little while making big inch power, might be a smart move if the numbers work

In the end though, a healthy 474 inch engine, shouldn't be too hard to hit 550 hp.  We just jammed my truck motor at 13 less cubes, 9.75:1, and a Comp 280/230 HFT and 277 cfm truck heads at 490 hp with zero tuning.  Add cubes, compression, cam and airflow....you know the drill

[cammerfe]

Does anybody know who did the (re)-design work on the Trick Flows? A long time ago I heard about a truly home garage operation in Ohio that was working on a new head for the 385-series engine. I tracked them down and, since I was writing for Super Ford Magazine at the time, drove down there from Livonia, Michigan and got the very first set they had finished. The seats were installed but the guides were in a baggie when I got them.

I took them home and had the head porter at Carl Holbrook's shop (some of you may well have heard of 'Birdy'), do a clean-up on one head. I found out that the next two sets went to FoMoCo read ('EEE') and from there to a "Well-known Detroit area performance shop", who went completely through them.

The result of their analysis was given to me with the proviso that I not name them, since the information
was proprietary, and the property of FoMoCo. I wrote the results up for a second article---the first one was primarily that the things actually existed and that orders were being taken, along with a slew of pictures pointing out the changes that had been made beyond the SCJ castings.

All the work, up to that point, had been done by a pair of brothers named Smith---as I said at the time in Super Ford, "not the cough drop ones and neither of them had a beard". They ultimately sold out to Summit but the changes were very well thought out. I wouldn't be astounded to find out that they had had some sort of input into the FE castings, as well.

[blykins]

I know Lawes Mayfield did a lot of Trick Flow R&D for BBF/SBF stuff a while back.  He's in Owensboro, KY. 

[pbf777]

A long time ago I heard about a truly home garage operation in Ohio that was working on a new head for the 385-series engine. I tracked them down...........

All the work, up to that point, had been done by a pair of brothers named Smith---..............They ultimately sold out to Summit

      Perhaps that would be Rick & Mike Smith, employees at that time of the Wilbert Manufacturing Co.

     And, all I can say is: "you can't believe everything you hear"!       

     Scott.

[CaptCobrajet]

You can go to the Chevy dealer and buy a GM Performance LSX CNC head and you will have the port.  The only redesign was just what was required to put it in the FE head.  I have flowed one of the GM heads here.  It flows real good.....much better than the FE rendition, but behaves the same as the TFS FE head, and suffers from the same backup issues.  When I first saw the TFS head, I knew I had seen that port before, with the exception of the exaggerated vane in the floor.

[cammerfe]

A long time ago I heard about a truly home garage operation in Ohio that was working on a new head for the 385-series engine. I tracked them down...........

All the work, up to that point, had been done by a pair of brothers named Smith---..............They ultimately sold out to Summit

      Perhaps that would be Rick & Mike Smith, employees at that time of the Wilbert Manufacturing Co.

     And, all I can say is: "you can't believe everything you hear"!       

     Scott.

The story I was given was that one of them was a mold-maker by profession, and he got laid off and put his extra time into creating the head re-design. At the time, the best heads around were being reworked in the same general way as the Cleveland head, with the exhaust port plate inserted after a substantial cut was made across the head to make way for it. The exhaust port was raised considerably thereby, so that it matched better with the intake flow. I saw the machinery in the garage when I picked up the first pair of heads, and further discussion with the "Well-known Detroit Race Shop" made it clear that the heads they explored had come from the same source.

All I know was that there was a third guy involved in some fashion and there was a legal wangle within a couple of months after I made the trip, within the group. The end of things, according to the Lawyer who called me, was that the third guy was no longer part of the group. I don't know what happened after that.

KS

[afret]

If you already have the Edelbrocks, and are thinking of buying the other heads, you might consider saving your money and just use the Eds in a street/strip car like your Cougar.  You have to have a full cage to go quicker than 10 seconds in the quarter which is kind of a pain.   You should be able to have a streetable car in the low 10s with the Eds.  I guess it's another story if you want to go quicker.

My street car with POS Ed heads that a lot of people seem to hate should run 10.4-10.5 seconds in good air at a sea level track from what it ran at Spokane on it's one time to the track.  That's with the FPA corks and mufflers.  REF headers would probably knock a tenth or two off that.  They wouldn't fit with the kicked out oil pan so gave them away.

[plovett]

Well, I eyeballed my ports compared to Mr. Gasket 202A's.  The cylinder head openings are bigger on my Edelbrocks, as I remembered.  I had to cut the 202A's last time I put them on.   The ports on the intake manifolds I am thinking of using are bigger too, but just barely.  They would almost work if the gasket was aligned perfectly and didn't squish any.  In practice the intake manifolds will need the gaskets trimmed, as well.

It is not a lot of difference.  I could have the Trick Flows massaged just a bit on the roof and sides and the alignment would likely be fine with my intake manifolds.  Or I could run the Trick Flows with the slight mismatch.  Or I could get a new intake manifold to fit the Trick Flows perfectly.   I am leaning towards keeping the Edelbrocks.