High compression_ methanol injection opinions

[KMcCullah]

Just finished running the "real" 427 tunnel port from the "Midnight Express" Maverick which was covered in an article in Hot rod a few decades ago.

Thread hijack in progress...

What happened with the sodium filled exhaust valves?

[Gaugster]

However, there's a limit to how far that works.  You can't build a 14:1 engine and think you can run it on pump gas if you run a big enough cam.  (Tongue in cheek....) 

Big pet peeve of mine.  No matter what a formula from the internet tells you - at maximum efficiency - torque peak - you are going to have a high compression engine with all the fuel demands that that entails.
When that happens at a higher RPM your odds of hearing - and reacting to - the detonation are lower, and you'll kill the engine without ever realizing that it was crying for help.

That's a good point. I have not researched much but I don't believe any of these bolt on EFI system use knock sensors that could intervene and pull timing at the first sign of trouble. You are on your own and need to be practical. Pulling timing etc... to compensate ends up just reducing power potential. Measure twice, cut once ......or whatever the gearhead equivalent is.

[Barry_R]

Just finished running the "real" 427 tunnel port from the "Midnight Express" Maverick which was covered in an article in Hot rod a few decades ago.

Thread hijack in progress...

What happened with the sodium filled exhaust valves?

They were returned to the engine owner when we freshened up the cylinder heads - as souvenirs

[Tommy-T]

Man, I'm always late to these conversations.

I say put the "D" cam in and try it. What the hell? You said earlier in this post your running Jay's adapter to make maintenance  easier so what's the harm? Change the cam out for something "logical" later. You'll always wonder what that 'ol Ford cam would do if you don't try it.

Interesting that you said you wouldn't mind driving with a 4500 converter...then said you don't want to drive with 5.14 gears. I'd probably run 4.56's with a 28" tall tire.

I did run a Snow water/meth on my blown Mustang. It ran fine with the Snow set-up as it's very adjustable, and the boost juice is cheap from Summit or Jegs. The reason that 50/50 water to meth is suggested by the manufacturer is that at 50/50 the mixture is not considered flammable. Many tuners running very high boost levels are running 70 to 100% in their cars but be warned...methanol burns clear and you can be VERY on fire before you realize it.

Run the big cam and learn something. Then you can give advise based on fact.

[1968galaxie]

100% agreement with Tommy-T

Put the old school cam in it and try it.
It ran very well in the 60's and 70's. If you don't like it, change it after.
Cam changes are a learning experience.

I was also told a long time ago by the "professionals" not to run a stock class cheater cam on the street.
Did it, and had zero regrets,
Also told "don't run 0.800" lift on the street" and "you can't run 5500 stall on the street"
To hell with the experts - I did both and was very pleased with the results.

Cheers

[My427stang]

Hey I run old junk too when it's right, and generally things are "right enough".  However there are things he'd need to do to run it if he wants to, the question is, can the components do it? and what would be the benefit?  I think in this case the answer is no and none.

EFI will not like it unless he runs open loop, that's a fact, you might be able to say good enough, but I just drove a stranded "800 HP" blown aluminator home because the A/F was so inconsistent after it's special build that it saturated and now burned out a O2 sensor.  This car was supposed to be a monster and has never been.  The car ran goofy before he called me, and he called because it's now almost undrivable. This old school Ford cam is in the hundreds for overlap, it's not going to make sense to the ECM, I run a 74 degree overlap with EFI and I consider myself on the edge for closed loop after careful tuning. Now, if he is able and willing to change to full open loop, rock on, but that requires a system and clever tuning to get them driving nice...if he is willing to stick a 4781 on there and a big old accel pump and some gear, I'd say rock on too

The other thing is where will the power be made, when that cam starts working, the heads and intake will be done. It's just too much, there is no secret sauce to that cam, it's just big and gnarly, jam it with spring and rev those old 427s to the moon, better build the 428 to take rpm.

That being said, I do agree with Tommy completely on one thing, generally "bolt it together and learn for yourself" is a great technique....but man it would be much easier to make 600 HP the first time with better parts choices

[blykins]

100% agreement with Tommy-T

Put the old school cam in it and try it.
It ran very well in the 60's and 70's. If you don't like it, change it after.
Cam changes are a learning experience.

I was also told a long time ago by the "professionals" not to run a stock class cheater cam on the street.
Did it, and had zero regrets,
Also told "don't run 0.800" lift on the street" and "you can't run 5500 stall on the street"
To hell with the experts - I did both and was very pleased with the results.

Cheers

I would run an .800" lift cam on the street.  I would also run a torque converter with a 5500 rpm stall on the street, if that's what the application needed. 

The thing about engine stuff is that it all operates on a basis of relativity.  One combination is always going to be better or worse relative to another. 

An engine with a 273° @ .050" duration cam, 5500 rpm converter, big lobe lift, maybe a cheater cam, etc., will probably run ok and make enough horsepower to entertain guys with not much experience.  You can throw a bunch of parts together in an FE and make 300-350 hp, which is enough to give you a happy feeling when you press the gas.   If the cam has enough overlap, it will sound extremely healthy, and then you have the perfect recipe for a Dairy Queener.

When you don't have the luxury of trying various combinations, then you really don't know what's out there.  You can be pleased with the results, but you would be much, much, much, more pleased with another combination. 

If the OP throws that C8AX cam in a 428 with box Edelbrock heads, it will sound all kinds of mean, but that's about it. 

[1968galaxie]

Agree with most of what you are saying Brent.
The OP did not say exactly what his exact combination would be.
I had already stated that a large old school cam would require a very high stall converter - as it would not have any low speed
manners. It also requires high compression as well.
Sure a new modern cam would make more sense - however, he has the cam. if he uses it with 12:1 + CR and a 5000 stall converter
it will certainly make well over 450HP. (unless something is really buggered up in the build)

I have been around long enough to have raced 427 L88 powered cars, 454 LS6 and LS7's back in the 80's.
By todays standards all those examples had camshafts way too big and too much overlap. But they were fun and did run into the low 12s and high 11's on crappy tires and greasy tracks.
Yes there are better options these days - but some of these old parts went very fast for what they were.

These days out on the streets there are 1500+ HP dual turbo street monsters - 8 second cars. When I was younger anything with 400+ HP was reasonably fast.
In the "old" days most of us enthusiasts built our own cars - everything - differentials, transmissions, engines.... We didn't have the $$$$ to have someone else build it for us. What fun would that be? Pay someone to build the car? Might as well but a new GT500. Whoopeee
I never wanted to be a "gold chainer". 
Call my junk a DQ special if you want. Still will run 10's at 4400 lbs (and I assembled every bolt) How fast is yours?

[blykins]

Agree with most of what you are saying Brent.
The OP did not say exactly what his exact combination would be.
I had already stated that a large old school cam would require a very high stall converter - as it would not have any low speed
manners. It also requires high compression as well.
Sure a new modern cam would make more sense - however, he has the cam. if he uses it with 12:1 + CR and a 5000 stall converter
it will certainly make well over 450HP. (unless something is really buggered up in the build)

I have been around long enough to have raced 427 L88 powered cars, 454 LS6 and LS7's back in the 80's.
By todays standards all those examples had camshafts way too big and too much overlap. But they were fun and did run into the low 12s and high 11's on crappy tires and greasy tracks.
Yes there are better options these days - but some of these old parts went very fast for what they were.

These days out on the streets there are 1500+ HP dual turbo street monsters - 8 second cars. When I was younger anything with 400+ HP was reasonably fast.
In the "old" days most of us enthusiasts built our own cars - everything - differentials, transmissions, engines.... We didn't have the $$$$ to have someone else build it for us. What fun would that be? Pay someone to build the car? Might as well but a new GT500. Whoopeee
I never wanted to be a "gold chainer". 
Call my junk a DQ special if you want. Still will run 10's at 4400 lbs (and I assembled every bolt) How fast is yours?

To be honest, Perry, mine *might* run 17's on a good day.  I only have my daily driver pickup right now.  A 7 year old daughter and a backlog of engine builds takes my time from me.  However, I've got customers who run mid 9's if that's any consolation.  None of them have cams as big as that C8AX cam LOL

I agree that there's a lot of fun in doing things yourself.  However, sometimes you need a little help from your fellow car buddies.  Greg didn't know that the cam was as high-strung as it is, because the guy selling them on the other forum didn't really explain it.  He just listed it as a "restoration replacement" or a F.A.S.T replacement camshaft. 

And now I understand where some of your logic has come from...….you were a Chevy racer.....LOL
 

[1967 XR7 GT]

Greg run the cam, you'll love it. I ran a an Old Greg Foreman-Gus Davis Grind .612" lift, Dur 312*-258@.050 back in the 80's in a 390 with 428 SCJ heads and 11 to 1 and I loved it, it had a 3,000 stall and 4:57's. And I heard the same thing everyone is saying now, it's too big you would be better off with a smaller cam and so on.

Mine is a hobby car to play around with,  as yours seems to be, I am working to get mine back together slowly, I also picked up one of these cams, and it's just a hair larger than what I was going to run, and thought what the hell old school. My thinking, I like the big cams cause they kill bottom end, then I do the opposite than go a larger motor with more torque.  I am sticking with the 3,000 stall and going 3:50's for the freeway. And it's said as a motor gets larger a cam gets smaller.

Here's the cam card, And It I think the .614" lift numbers are wrong, they should be .600" lift.

[blykins]

If you could make more horsepower with a smaller camshaft, would you switch? 

[1967 XR7 GT]

If I could get 100 or more horses maybe, but not for 10 to 20 extra horses. But then I'd have to dump my Sidewinder for an open plenum Victor or compatible manifold or even  a 2x4 setup.

I'll still hit 600 hp with the D cam, with my current combination.

[cammerfe]

We went to the 'D' cam when we put the TP in the Thunderbolt back in '68. Quite rowdy. It's NOT anything I'd try to use for anything more complex than driving around the block (once). Or on a quarter mile.

KS

[blykins]

For some reason I'm having trouble accessing page 4 of this thread. 

Anyway, I would think it would be hard to hit 600 hp with any combination and that camshaft and boosting another 100 hp with a different cam seems certainly likely.

[Falcon67]

TL - DR this thread but from reading your first post and having a performance car used for same - strip and cruize - and with your build specs, I say pony up for race fuel and get over it.  All that $$$$ in the motor and you want to cheese out with crappy pump fuel?  Especially now that Russia and Saudi are killing the price and the mix in the pumps is going to get even weaker as people try to stretch profits?  No, don't even.  Pay the $9.50 a gallon and deal with it.  Locally, if I buy Sunoco 110 by the 54 gallon drum it runs about $7.80/gallon.  You can cut it 50% for street cruising, then run full strength at the track.  Keeps well in the drum, way-way better than pump gas.  I run the same ET/MPH on year old properly stored 110.  Or totally bite the bullet and convert the straight methanol, any pay maybe $180/drum.  More maintenance and care required, no problems with the compression.

If not, then get with the experts here and back the build down.  Lots of people go real fast and aren't running 12:1.