Author Topic: Tuning the Air/Fuel Ratio of a new 428, need some guru AFR advice.  (Read 11651 times)

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drdano

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Greetings all.  I'm on the second iteration of my 428 after this lovely little mishap: http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=581.0 where my clutch hung up and roasted my thrust bearing.

New motor is going very well.  I've got an Innovate LM-2 AFR meter with an O2 sensor in the exhaust.  So far it's been a huge confidence booster just to help relieve some of the stress of lean-frying a new motor and actually making carb changes and knowing exactly what it is/is-not doing to the fuel ratio. 

Now I'm on to tuning the carb even further.  From what I'm reading anywhere from 12.5-13.5 AFR is optimal for power, but depending on the motor configuration like DCR/cam/head chamber type.  Right now I'm fairly across the board off-idle to wide-open at 12.5 and it runs well, but smells fumey and rich from what I'm accustomed to.  The exhaust dumps down just in front of the rear axle for now, but out on the open road at 55mph when I bury the throttle to the floor I can still smell it. 

So, my questions are: Where should I be going with the AFR with this motor configuration?  Obviously most power, but thats a bit hard to gauge with no chassis dyno or drag strip on hand.  Is there a general ballpark number like 13:1 that would be a good safe number?

I have the ability with my *cough* GM carb to ultra fine tune the part throttle cruise and again from what I've read this number can go much leaner than one would think (within reason) due to very little load on the motor while gently humming along down a flat highway.  What is a safe ratio here?

Motor details:
428+0.030
10:1 Static comp.ratio
C4AE-G heads with no chamber mods
Duraspark red connector ignition / Faron built duraspark dizzy / blaster 2 coil / 8mm wires / Autolite 45's .040 gap
Hyd. Roller 242@50 / .633 lift @ valve 110ICL installed at 104.
4.11 posi / 26" tall tire / 4200lb grocery getter

Thanks all.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 11:38:55 AM by drdano »

Chad D

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Re: Tuning the Air/Fuel Ratio of a new 428, need some guru AFR advice.
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2012, 12:53:51 PM »
Certainly, I'm no guru but I've had good luck using these settings on street cars I've tuned:  15:1 at idle (keep an eye on the transition slot), main jets lean (~16:1) for lightly loaded cruise, and tune max power (~13:1) using power valves and PVCR (or metering rods/springs).  Every car is a bit different, but those are what I shoot for.  I know a couple guys that run in the high 17's cruise but they run light, small cars.  Extra vacuum advance may help with surge if you go leaner.  All that said, I'd shoot for straight stoich (14.7:1) for a baseline cruise ratio, and slowly work leaner from there, watching closely for problems.  Fiddling with air bleeds is sometimes easier and more accurate than whole jet changes.  Of course all this presumes you've got a clean carb in good repair.

How much vacuum do you have at idle?  Initial/total mechanical timing?  Total mechanical all in at what RPM?  How much vacuum advance (if any, and at what depression)?  What temp is your thermostat?  What temp does the car cruise at?

Richer than stoich is always 'safest' but you leave fuel economy on the table and if you're running the engine on the cool side, you'll load it up.  Of course, I live at 1000 feet elevation on the plains, so going lean on my calibration is rarely a problem during a cruise or road trip, and I don't do much driving of my toys in very cold weather.  I tune in the spring or fall for 65F ambient (+/- 35*), 60% humidity (+/- 40%), and a 195F engine (+/- 30*), or just do it for current conditions and expect to correct it later.  If you want safe, work your tune for the highest air density you expect to encounter (lowest elevation / ambient temperature) with the engine fully warm, and call that your 'lean' baseline.

What is your home altitude, and how does it vary in your cruise area?

You have a great feedback tool, use it!

drdano

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Re: Tuning the Air/Fuel Ratio of a new 428, need some guru AFR advice.
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2012, 01:17:23 PM »
The motor is new, like 2hrs of runtime and maybe 25 miles on it thusfar.  So far I'm looking at 8in vacuum at idle on average.  Intial timing is set at 16.  I'd have to check the sheet Faron sent with the distributor when he redid it, but it's all in at 2500 I think.  195 degree thermostat, it seems consistenly "in the middle" of the gauge while driving.  I've only had it out in 70 degree weather so far, I'd expect it to run a smidge hotter when it gets into the 100's here in the summer.  Altitude is 5000' here with 30% humidity on average.  Typical travel area will run to 7500' and maybe as low as 3000' once/twice a year when we go to Bonneville to watch the races, but generally we want to go UP to the mountains.  :-)

I'm really liking the LM-2 after an initial dead module out of the box they replaced for free.  The SD card logging and real-time playback is nice too. 

Chad D

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Re: Tuning the Air/Fuel Ratio of a new 428, need some guru AFR advice.
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2012, 04:55:28 PM »
Given your wide range of altitude, it's probably best to tune at home (5000 feet), 70 degrees ambient temp sounds like good middle ground.  It will get fatter with increasing altitude and temperature, so Bonneville is where you'll have to pay closer attention.  A carb with adjustable air bleeds would be your best friend ;-)

With vacuum that low at idle, you might have some difficulty getting your idle AF closer to stoich.  I suppose I should caution you to make sure your float level is set correctly before you begin any adjustments.  You didn't mention which carb you're using, but make sure the throttle blades are set so the transfer slot isn't overly exposed.  From the bottom of the carb, it should look like a tiny square, about the same size as (and near) the idle fuel discharge port.  If the transfer slot is exposed too far (you see a slot instead of a square), it will likely cause a lean stumble off-idle which you might end up chasing with accelerator pump cams and squirters, or an inconsistently super-rich idle that just won't clean up... IMO it's better just to let the transfer circuit work properly.

If you can't get the car to idle with the throttle blades and transfer slot set correctly, you will have to fiddle with bigger idle air bleeds, increasing idle air bypass, or drilling small holes in the throttle blades to get it to idle smoothly.

Float, idle, and idle transition circuits are where I always start...

jayb

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Re: Tuning the Air/Fuel Ratio of a new 428, need some guru AFR advice.
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2012, 05:58:08 PM »
I would start with 14.7 at idle and cruise, and look for 13:1 at WOT if at 12.5:1 it seems rich.  It will all depend on your particular combination, and it can be hard to predict.  The SOHC in my Galaxie wanted 10.5:1 on the A/F at cruise; much above that and it would cough and miss.  The big cams would essentially fool the O2 sensor into thinking the burn was richer than it really was.  So use those idle and cruise numbers as a starting point, and if the car doesn't feel quite right go up or down from there.  The WOT situation is different, though, because you can almost always trust the O2 sensor reading at WOT, regardless of the combination.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

bartlett

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Re: Tuning the Air/Fuel Ratio of a new 428, need some guru AFR advice.
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2012, 05:58:38 PM »
add on to chads

You can set the secondanrys open a slight bit to overcome the open throttle plates. old trick ... ;D

drdano

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Re: Tuning the Air/Fuel Ratio of a new 428, need some guru AFR advice.
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2012, 06:00:41 PM »
The carb is an 800 quadrajet (watch for flying tomatoes from the readers!) that I had Dean Oliver custom build from my core.  I've run qjets for the past 10 years on various vehicles and have grown to like them a lot.  So far the carb setup is perfect.  I marked on the outside of the carb where the transfer slot values were so I know when I'm into it too far and so far everything is kosher and the mix screws are doing their job quite predictably.  Overall I'm very impressed with the work Deano did.  There is max power to be found with a Holley unarguably, and I have an 850DP in a box for when the test-n-tune day at the track eventually comes and for after I have the qjet perfectly setup.  It is also setup with an adjustable part throttle access plug so I can custom tune the primary rod depth at part-throttle cruise...which is where the good gas mileage gains can be had. I've already done some primary rod changes and noticed the AFR changed predictably as I went leaner.  I don't think there is any reason this carb wont go leaner than 12.5 with further changes, but that is where I started to wonder where I should be while still keeping the motor from going too lean and damaging something. I'll see how the motor behaves at cruise with around 14.7 and go from there.

jmlay

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Re: Tuning the Air/Fuel Ratio of a new 428, need some guru AFR advice.
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2012, 06:23:57 PM »
Mike

drdano

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Re: Tuning the Air/Fuel Ratio of a new 428, need some guru AFR advice.
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2012, 07:15:39 PM »
I put about 30 miles on the car today with a different primary rod and main jet combo and took a half turn out of the APT to let it run a tad richer at cruise. Seems to want 13.5 at idle, gets stumbly and fussy at 14+ and loses rpm, so I left it there. It's 13.5-14.5 in town in traffic 40mph with nice secondary reaction. Highway 1/4 throttle 60mph with no load on flat highway it will run in the 15.5 range, which is ok under no load I think. I'm pretty happy with it, doesn't smell rich anymore and the performance is good. It should run a touch richer in warmer weather next spring, was 60 degrees here today when I got it all dialed in.

Chad D

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Re: Tuning the Air/Fuel Ratio of a new 428, need some guru AFR advice.
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2012, 12:07:04 PM »
Sounds like you got it dialed in just right!

drdano

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Re: Tuning the Air/Fuel Ratio of a new 428, need some guru AFR advice.
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2012, 09:03:13 PM »
Took the Space Wagon up to the motherland for turkey day festivities.  Ran like a champ, I'm absolutely sold on the LM-2.  Ran 80 miles pushing hard up 2500' elevation gain and used no oil on the new motor.  Made a few 3/4 throttle, 5 gear blasts and hit some new mph's for the car I've never seen before.



Runnin' down the road on the high plains, this would be roughly 8000'. 

http://flic.kr/p/dvqh3M


BruceS

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Re: Tuning the Air/Fuel Ratio of a new 428, need some guru AFR advice.
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2012, 03:35:11 AM »
Gotta love that Country Sedan!  Nice sound, too.
66 Fairlane 500, 347-4V SB stroker, C4
63 Galaxie 500 fastback, 482 SO 4V, Cruise-O-Matic

runthatjunk

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If you go on long enough drives i'd sure like to know what kind of gas mileage
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2012, 01:09:26 AM »
you get with that Qjet.  My only experience with them was in a 1 ton CrewCab and it was a damn good carb.
1965 390 Galaxie 4 Speed
1966 428 Thunderbird

amdscooter

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Re: Tuning the Air/Fuel Ratio of a new 428, need some guru AFR advice.
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2012, 01:14:17 PM »
Wagon sounds great.. though I could not make out the numbers on the LM-2... what was it running at?

My427stang

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Re: Tuning the Air/Fuel Ratio of a new 428, need some guru AFR advice.
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2012, 03:45:48 PM »
That car sounds great, sounds like a healthy 428 for a wagon!
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