Author Topic: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?  (Read 22361 times)

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drdano

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Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« on: July 25, 2012, 10:24:23 PM »
Pulled my bellhousing tonight and noticed gritty metal dust behind the block plate.  Turns out the ARP flywheel bolts dug into my block and rear main cap 1/16"-1/8".   >:( 

Would this weaken the block or rear main cap? 

I have to pull the pan and windage tray anyway to change the crushed pan, can I measure the thrust bearing clearance with the crank/rods in place to make sure it wasn't wiped out by this?

My427stang

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2012, 05:37:41 AM »
It wont weaken the block significantly, but you may have worn front side of the thrust bearing a bit.

Check and see how much thrust movement you have, it probably opened up but it may not even be an issue.  Did the oil in the motor have any bearing material in it?
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

jayb

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2012, 07:34:12 AM »
+1 on those comments; as long as you have the pan off, I'd pull the #3 main and take a look.  If its worn, check the thrust surfaces on the crank, and if they are not all beat up, just pop a new bearing in there and you will probably be fine.

I'm actually somewhat surprised that the bolts would wear that deep of a groove in the block and rear main cap.  When I've stuck bolts that are too long in the crank, they bottom against the block/cap and lock the crank up so it won't move.  I'm wondering how those grooves could have gotten so deep?  Endplay on the crank should be in the .010" range, and I can't imagine that there was 1/16" interference to start with and the starter would even crank the engine.  Hmmmm...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

drdano

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2012, 08:13:26 AM »
Thanks for the info guys.  I'm puzzled how the motor turned over as well.  I recall that when I was moving the motor over by hand with the flywheel attached, it was stiff but I thought this was just because it had the spark plugs in and was a new motor.  My gear reduction starter didn't ever hang up or do anything weird.

I haven't opened the oil filter up yet, the motor is basically brand new.  I'll try to get my hands on a filter cutter locally (yea right) and see what is in there.

In addition to the smashed oil pan, the other reason for pulling everything behind the motor is because my TKO600 wont go into any gear.  On the floor it shifts easily by hand, mated up and with a .060" air gap in the clutch it just grinds and wont go in...so something isn't right in the motor/clutch/trans mate-up.  I thought perhaps I had the clutch disc in backwards, but that isn't the case.  The witness marks on the input shaft of the trans and the pilot bushing show it is engaging where it should, so that shouldn't be hung up.  I'll pop the pilot bushing out of the crank and try it on the input shaft alone.  My theory at this point is the pilot bushing is too snug causing the the crank to push into the block when the trans is mated up and consequently the flywheel bolts to contact the block and rear main cap.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 08:15:34 AM by drdano »

plovett

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2012, 09:08:51 AM »
My "72cc" Edelbrocks are actually 79cc.  The shop measured them.   Later when I had my heads off I measured them and also came up with 79 cc.

paulie

drdano

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2012, 10:06:35 AM »
Moral is to double check everything, right? 

drdano

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The Necropsy, or how my TKO600 killed my 428
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2012, 02:40:19 PM »
I did a necropsy on the motor today and it just got worse the further I got into it. 

First, there was nothing in the oil filter out of the ordinary.  I cut it open with a sharp chisel since I have no filter cutter.  Some copper shimmer color to the oil in it, but nothing big enough you could physically see.  I was feeling pretty confident there.

...until I pulled the pan off.  Or tried I should say.  I used a 1/4" bead of Right Stuff on each side of the windage tray when I put it on with the pan and it made getting the pan off an hour long ordeal and the pan rail on it is definitely toast.  This pan is crushed from the car falling off the jack stands anyway, but had i tried to reuse it I'd be working with a hammer and dolly for a while to get everything back straight.  In the future I'll use two smaller beads or a single 1/8" bead instead, this just seemed like overkill to get everything apart.

On the inside of the pan below the thrust bearing there was a stripe of ferrous metal, thin shavings of copper, etc.   :-[  Things only got worse from here.

Here is the view of the thrust bearing from above.  What really puzzled me here was that the thrust bearing was shoved forward, not backward.  The bolts from the flywheel that were digging into the rear main cap would have caused the crank to move aft, not forward. 
 

I did a quick thrust endplay check with a short prybar and a dial indicator and it showed .042".  My '62 Galaxie shop manual shows .004-.008" with replacement spec at .012"

Pulling the #3 main cap to inspect the carnage...ugh.  Bearing is halfway ground off.


Rear thrust face of #3 crank journal is toast, there is a heavy ridge here you can catch a fingernail on.  I'll need to research some more on the max distance allowed between the crank #3 main bearing journal faces here, but I imagine this crank is toast and will need re-welded or just tossed.  Totally sucks because this was a very nice 428 crank that I had custom neutral balanced for this motor.


Crank journal is damaged from the bearing particles, you can catch a fingernail on the damage here.  This probably wont micro polish out, but it makes no difference since the thrust faces are so bad.


Then things got worse.  I started looking into the block to get some views of the cam lobes.  Everyone is all sketched out about failing cam lobes, so I figured it was worth a look.  This is a Comp custom hydraulic roller from Brent.  All the lobes I could see looked a-ok, no discoloring, scuffing or blueing.  Then I started looking into the cylinder bores.

Scuffing in the cylinder walls...all of them :'(  The scuffs look as deep as the final honing finish.  These are speed pro forged semi-flat top slugs.


I don't know the reason for this and would like some forum members opinions here.  The thrust bearing destruction would have puked the debris out of the bearing into the pan, where it was seen.  Is it possible for the thrust bearing debris to make it back into the crank and up the rods expelled out oil lands and into the walls between the piston face and wall?  This motor always had good oil pressure and never overheated.

Back to the cause of the crank getting shoved forward in the block, I did mockups of the transmission, bellhousing and motor prior to tearing into the bottom end.  The input shaft of the transmission engaged beautifully into the pilot bearing, no binding here.  With everything bolted up, minus the clutch assembly, I could reach in through the clutch fork window and easily spin the input shaft.  A-OK here, so the input shaft can't be buried into the rear of the crank.  I marked the input shaft at where the rear face of the pilot was riding so I could see if it was engaging too. 

Looks kinda shallow for where the pilot should be riding...


Looking closer at the input shaft, I think the cause of this whole nightmare is the witness marks on the top spline in the photo.  They look super shallow as well.  When I mocked the clutch disc up on the input shaft on the witness mark, it was only halfway engaged on the splines of the disc at best.  I took an hour and took a ton of measurements off the rear of the block, the rear crank, the transmission to verify that this was actually where that clutch disc was engaging and it all adds up.  This in itself would have been a disaster on the first clutch dump probably shearing the splines right out of the clutch disc or input shaft.  However, when I looked at the corresponding inside of the clutch disc the witness marks were not there.  I had the trans in and out of the car a dozen times before I fired the motor adjusting small things in the crossmember and z-bar assembly.  These witness marks on the input shaft are likely from when the old 390 and old clutch were still in front of the transmission, making me wonder if the trans always engaged shallow into the clutch, even with the old motor.  With only a 1/4" of input shaft splines into the clutch disc, it would have been super easy to not have the splines actually engaged when I thought they were and then tightened the trans up to the bellhousing.  It probably bound up the last time I installed the trans to the motor not noticing since it was the last 1/4".  This would have put extreme pressure on the rear of the crank.  This also would explain why no matter what I did the clutch would not disengage and the transmission would not shift into any gear or reverse.

I think this explains what happen, unless others have opinions as well, I'm all ears.  I'm pretty heartbroken, even more so  knowing it is my fault despite how careful I try to be with everything.  The only lingering question I have is the scuffing of the cylinder walls unless everyone thinks that occurred due to the failed thrust bearing.

My427stang

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2012, 03:08:57 PM »
Don't give up yet

King makes an oversized thrust flange, you quite possibly can do a quick clean up of the crank, hone the cylinders and drive off.

http://www.king-bearings.com/cat/PanelView.aspx?mfamily=1238

.010-.030 oversized flanges will probably bring it back after machining, and on top of that you can go pretty loose on the thrust dimensions and still get away with it.  Basically, if nothing hits, there isn't a problem with too much thrust.

Better go though the whole thing to find any more little pieces though.
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

drdano

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2012, 03:25:07 PM »
Had no idea such a bearing existed, thanks for posting that.   Yes, the entire motor has to be torn down for sure.

jayb

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2012, 05:39:44 PM »
I don't think the scuffing you are seeing on the cylinder walls is a big deal.  All engines will look like that after they've run for a while, especially strokers with short skirt pistons, but even stock motors.  You get some particulates in the oil and they leave those marks in the cylinder wall, but it probably doesn't hurt anything.  As long as you have to take it apart, put a quick hone job on it and a new set of rings, and run it.

On the clutch issue, you definitely have a problem to resolve.  I would agree with your analysis that you probably did not get good engagement of the splines with the clutch disc the last time you had the trans out, and the pressure against the crank from installing the transmission forced the crank forward, causing the issue with the bolts hitting the back of the block and the thrust bearing wear.  But you need a lot more engagement of the clutch disc splines into the transmission than what you've got.  What it looks like to me is that you may have the wrong bellhousing on the engine.  That pilot shaft on the end of the input shaft looks long to me, compared to most FE pilot shafts.  When I've had a pilot shaft that long that needs to go into an FE it bottoms against the crank, and I've had to cut them off shorter to make them work.  If your transmission was 1/2" farther forward towards the block, you would have adequate engagement of the clutch disc splines but you would probably bottom the pilot shaft in the crank.  If I recall correctly, FE truck bellhousings are longer than FE passenger car bellhousings; do you have a truck bellhousing on this vehicle?  Or is it a truck and I've missed that?  How about the trans, is it a small block or 351C transmission?  I'm just throwing this out there; I actually have limited experience with this situation...

I think you can recover from this without a major investment, but you for sure need to get to the bottom of the clutch disc spline engagement issue - Jay
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

drdano

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2012, 07:32:46 PM »
Ok, so maybe the scuffs are not as bad as I thought.  They don't look super deep, but until I get everything out I wont know for sure and they are hard to see with the rods in the way.  Being forged pistons, should I expect them to not be scuffed?

I think the clutch issue is solved, I need the other Quicktime Bellhousing.  The transmission is a TKO600, #5008 with a short input shaft.  I had originally used the corresponding short input Quicktime bellhousing on my old 390, but the input shaft hit the bottom of the crank pilot hole before the transmission was fully seated into the back of the bell.  I called and talked to Ross at QT (this was before they were bought by Lakewood) and he and I did a LOT of measurements against my 390 and his original engineering drawings and concluded my 390 didn't quite mesh with what they designed the bells to work with regards to the pilot hole depth.  Ross exchanged my bell with the other one used on transmissions with normal input shaft lengths and everything worked fine on that motor.

But that was that motor, and this a different setup, so I think things changed a little bit again.  I've put a post on this board and over on the other FE forum to see if someone will swap me back for a short bell and I think that will solve the issue....If no bites I'll just by the short bell and keep this as a spare for a future project.  I measure more than a half inch of additional pilot depth in the crank and have more than a half inch available on the input shaft, so there shouldn't be any binding issue either at the splines or at the bottom of the pilot hole.  Half inch also means no new driveshaft needs to be cut and minor adjustment of my shifter boot tower.   Outside of the expense of the bellhousing, nothing further should need done with the trans or clutch.

I'm going to take another good look at the clutch disc tonight and see if on the trans side of the center splined area I can see where it hung up, it's got to be at least a little chewed up somewhere in there from this I would think.

drdano

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2012, 08:30:50 AM »
Looking at the clutch disc last night I can see where it hung up.  There are witness marks in the splined areas about a 1/4" deep, likely where it actually engaged correctly at least once.  However, on the very end of the splines on the nose of each one it is impacted in slightly, this must have been where the nose of the input shaft splines perfectly mated up from the last time the transmission was stabbed in. 

Incredible set of circumstances and lots of lessons learned for sure.

jayb

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2012, 09:32:21 AM »
Bad luck, no doubt about it.  However, at least it has enabled you to uncover a significant problem.  Probably better to find out now than when you dropped the clutch at 5000 RPM LOL!
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

drdano

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2012, 10:25:24 AM »
That is exactly what I was thinking too.  The first hard clutch dump on the street or at the track and that would have been a big boom and a big headache potentially a long way away from home.  Definitely a silver lining to whole mess. 

Cyclone03

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2012, 11:14:40 AM »
I may have some input...
I have a TKO 600,long input. Matching Quick Time bell and a (SCAT)? cranked stroker from Barry.

When the trans was installed it too would lock up.
I don't know if the pilot seat area was not machined deep enough,the crank flange too far back or some other problem with tallerence stack up.

The spline area of the input shaft would bottom onto the pilot bearing/bushing.

A Pilot BEARING for an FE was the worst, a Pilot BUSHING also would not work.
The interference seemed to be about -.1-.2".

Now here the interesting fix I used.
If your using a SCAT crank,other aftermarket cranks may be the same.
In the pilot area machined in the end of the crank it is machined in steps,the outer where a pilot Bear./Bush would normally seat,a second area below then a deeper area with a triangle/cone look.
I found the second machined area below the pilot area was a perfect fit for a 5.0 Mustang stock roller pilot BEARING,that bearing even has a flange that seats on the (normal) pilot bush.  seat area and holds the 5.0 Bear.  proud about .2". When the trans was mocked into place the grease on the bearing left a mark stopping about .2" from the trans spline and the trans now rotated freely.

It's held to gether for 9000 miles so it must be working.

Now I see you are short on engagement and are using a short input,did the short bell/short input bind? Maybe you had the same problem I did with the crank?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 11:18:42 AM by Cyclone03 »
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