Author Topic: 428 CJ  (Read 13469 times)

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MHarvey

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428 CJ
« on: October 13, 2018, 02:16:51 AM »
I just have my 428 Cobra jet built in LA...not sure I am happy with the results....

Dyno out of car with headers, using a comp cam 33-338-4, 118/224 @ 050, 735 cfm with oversized jets and Pertonix distributor...

Torgue came in at 455 but HP never went over 355...and drops off at 5000 pretty much...

I am checking this weekend what springs he put in it...but I am concerned if the cam is wrong, too lean, or if I have another issue....

Please comment

Heo

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Re: 428 CJ
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2018, 03:56:26 AM »
A/F ratio is a bit rich i think?



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blykins

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Re: 428 CJ
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2018, 06:22:57 AM »
I have several things to note.....

A/F ratio shows it's very rich. 

Total timing is about 10° too low.  Total timing on a 428CJ should be 38-40° total. 

Oil pressure is very low, I don't think I've ever seen oil pressure that low.  A standard volume/pressure oil pump in an FE will usually have 65-70 psi in the rpms you're running.  I would be concerned that a galley plug or something was left out. 

Nothing wrong with the valve springs.  The cam is just very small for what you have.  With a 428, factory heads, factory intake, 9.8:1, and a hydraulic flat tappet with 227/229 @ .050" duration, 110 LSA, and .540" lift, I see 420-425 hp here at 5500 rpm, with 450-460 lb-ft.

It's also a 3.980" stroke.  :)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 06:34:38 AM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
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Barry_R

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Re: 428 CJ
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2018, 06:53:42 AM »
Looks like a stock 428CJ based on the numbers I see. 
I see them between 365-385 pretty often.

I rarely use BSFC, but the A/F numbers are pretty rich and the BSFC backs that up. 
No reason for bigger jets, might have wanted to go the other way.

Probably 20HP in there, maybe even more with some timing thrown at it.
Torque per cube is just a little light at 1.05 per - should be around 1.1 with stock stuff - kinda matches up with the extra 20HP I think is hiding in the tune up.

The spread between peaks looks normal for a near stock engine, might move up a few hundred with some fuel and timing as well.

I will agree that the oil pressure looks low - better check on that right away.

MHarvey

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Re: 428 CJ
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2018, 11:43:59 AM »
Thanks for the comments...the carb has 68/80 jets and I will drop them back to stock...the builder said he rebuilt it and tweeked it....sounds like he over tweeked it.

As for oil pressure...they guy doing the build had a rebuilt (tweeked) oil pump that was pumping over 100 PSI on first run and the dyno guy returned the motor...so he replaced it with a carter....could that be the issue....else..I am not sure where a galley plug is and how to fix/check.

I have heard that cam is too light...what would be a stronger cam....I have the engine out of the car...and easier to replace...I was considering a comp cam 33-230-4 that has 230 at .050 and .530 lift....I will not race this but want the sound and have the HP it should...

Recommendations?  as once I get this installed with any upgrades I will have it dyno' again...

blykins

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Re: 428 CJ
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2018, 12:03:45 PM »
Stick a Melling standard volume pump in it....add a lot more total timing.

If you're wanting a shelf cam, I'd go with a Howards 258021-09.  Ask your builder if the current valve springs will be up to snuff on coil bind clearance.  You will need new lifters as well.  If you're running power brakes, you will be on the edge for enough vacuum, but it will work.


EDITED.....put wrong part number down before.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 12:11:28 PM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
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My427stang

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Re: 428 CJ
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2018, 12:25:23 PM »
I am with the others, if the timing was indeed 28 degrees, add 10 to it, and watch it do better.  Same with leaning it out.  Really odd that the guy made it rich and late, must be REALLY afraid of detonation :)

I'd also make 100% sure the secondaries were opening, however, I agree, there isn't a lot left with that cam.  However, I will add that that will be a very nice street engine, so don't sell it short if it's going in a C-6 car, power brake car with a tall gear, it'll be a blast
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Drew Pojedinec

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Re: 428 CJ
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2018, 01:02:37 PM »
I’d leave the jets alone until the timing to fixed up.

MHarvey

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Re: 428 CJ
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2018, 02:34:18 PM »
I confirmed the springs..they are correct to the cam he put in....the more I think about it I will replace the cam and push for higher HP....and I can use the same springs if I go with the 230 @ .050.   Then reject the carb down....once I confirm the timing...

Anyone concerned with that oil pressure at 40 PSI....I have heard a concern with a missing galley plug...the builder put in a rebuilt pump that was blowing over 100...so he put in a carter...should I upgrade and confirm galley plugs when I pull the cam?

Any other comments...springs ar 926-16.

blykins

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Re: 428 CJ
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2018, 03:01:53 PM »
To my knowledge, Carter does not make oil pumps.

You sure don't need 100 psi but yes, 40 psi at full song does concern me.  Most of the time, a dyno doesn't get the oil good and hot like a nice long drive does.  If you gained a lot more oil temp, that 40 psi would whittle down to even less.

What's odd is that the oil pressure doesn't change, hardly at all throughout the pull.  We normally see it change drastically with rpm.  Could be that you have blown a galley plug out if he didn't tap them and install screw in plugs.  Could be that the oil pump relief is stuck open. 

Of all the things that you show in your dyno sheet, the horsepower surprises me the least......but there is a lot of things that really catch my eye:

1.  Total ignition timing being way low.
2.  Oil pressure being way low.
3.  A/F ratio being rich. 

What kind of hp numbers are you looking for?  What vehicle is it going in?  Transmission?  Rearend gear? 

It could be that the current camshaft is maybe more correct and a larger cam may make it harder on driveability. 

I'd say you'd gain a good 20-30 hp just by putting the A/F ratio and timing where it should be.   Sounds like your builder and dyno guy both need to be thumped in the head one good time.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 03:05:11 PM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
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FElony

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Re: 428 CJ
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2018, 03:15:47 PM »
The correct part number for the cam you have is 33-238-4. This is the XE262H. Comp's description is "Hydraulic-Strong torque, excellent throttle response, heavy towing in 428 with gears" RPM range is 1300-5600. By the description, you got what you paid for. My advice is to go out and tow stuff. Tow it here. Tow it there. Be happy. Sing a song.

MHarvey

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Re: 428 CJ
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2018, 03:21:17 PM »
well...while I am not a numbers guy on the HP...I was expecting 400...and I did tell the guy to give me a cam that had a good sound....but no vacuum issues....guess I should have done more research and gave him the cam I was looking for....and he estimated that cam would hit 400hp and have the sound...yes, he needs a thump and me to for trusting him.

This will go into a 69 Mach 1, 4 speed toploader, stock 3.5 gears...with AC and power brakes.

Sounds like you recommend a new pump...any recommendations...as wells as leaving in the current 218/224 cam.....???  Will this cam have the lumpy sound.....

I do not plan on racing it...just a weekend driver....bragging rights,...but it would be nice to get what I pay for...and sound nice...

ideas...comments?

MHarvey

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Re: 428 CJ
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2018, 03:22:31 PM »
I did read the comment on towing...not sure I was planning on towing....just on that alone I want to rip it out...

blykins

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Re: 428 CJ
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2018, 03:26:26 PM »
well...while I am not a numbers guy on the HP...I was expecting 400...and I did tell the guy to give me a cam that had a good sound....but no vacuum issues....guess I should have done more research and gave him the cam I was looking for....and he estimated that cam would hit 400hp and have the sound...yes, he needs a thump and me to for trusting him.

This will go into a 69 Mach 1, 4 speed toploader, stock 3.5 gears...with AC and power brakes.

Sounds like you recommend a new pump...any recommendations...as wells as leaving in the current 218/224 cam.....???  Will this cam have the lumpy sound.....

I do not plan on racing it...just a weekend driver....bragging rights,...but it would be nice to get what I pay for...and sound nice...

ideas...comments?

I gave you the recommendation a few times on the oil pump.......Melling M57 standard volume.  Check all the galley plugs.  You can see if the one behind the distributor is in there when you pull the distributor out.  You can also prime the oil pump and listen for any internal gushing. 

The cam is up to you.  It's going to be mild.  It may have a noticeable idle, but it's not gonna sound lumpy and thumpy like you want.  Is it worth going through another cam break-in?  That's up to you. 

If you made 356 hp, you'd most likely gain another 20-30 hp with correct tuning. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
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www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
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FElony

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Re: 428 CJ
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2018, 03:34:31 PM »
I did read the comment on towing...not sure I was planning on towing....just on that alone I want to rip it out...

You can have the only Mach I on your block with a tow hitch. Just sayin'. Here's is one of my all-time favorite Grassroots YouTube video. 416 inches. Be patient and watch the whole thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dczh02svKVI