Author Topic: Starting to understand why building engines may be best left to the professional  (Read 116152 times)

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Heo

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"it's not cold yet in Canada"  says Paul......


"You've never lived in south Georgia."  says Drew....      :P

Well.....For each day i thinking more about moving from this country
bad and cold weather ruled by retards  invaded by rapists...so watch out
maybe I'm moving to south Georgia :D neighbour and borrow your lawn mover,
circle saw, shovels........ :P


Lovley isnt it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hyMpL-bHck
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 08:31:23 PM by Heo »



The defenition of a Gentleman, is a man that can play the accordion.But dont do it

Dan859

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Just a normal day in Syracuse NY ;D.

Yellow Truck

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Should be nice enough tomorrow for a little work on it. My question - if I'm going to reduce the idle, do I close the secondary completely or reduce the primary?

Save you looking back here are the pictures before I put the carb on, I have turned the idle set screw a little more open than is in the picture.

Primary:
IMG_3435 by Fred Snoyd, on Flickr

Secondary:
IMG_3436 by Fred Snoyd, on Flickr
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 12:49:48 PM by Yellow Truck »
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

Drew Pojedinec

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Do you want the long answer or the short one Paul?

The short answer is "Set the primary transfer slot properly and then close the secondary to reduce idle, provided that the secondary is still set on the adjuster and not the bore of the carburetor."

The long answer includes the why.....

Don't call the transfer slot "the transfer circuit" it's confusing until you fully grok it all, and how it plays with everything else.
The idle circuit IS the idle mixture screw and also the transfer slot.
The total fuel is restricted by the Idle Feed Restriction.  As it heads out of the idle well it is mixed with Idle air bleed air and proceeds down toward the bottom of the metering block.
From there it is in one slot.....  the metering block slot that goes to the transfer slot hole in the main body and eventually down to the throttle body transfer slot.
When you adjust the idle mixture screw you are allowing fuel/air mixture into that area of the metering block and into the main body down to the idle feed in the throttle body.
You can adjust the idle mixture screw.....  but the ONLY way to adjust the transfer slot fuel is with the throttle butterfly.
The idle feed under the throttle plates is constant feed.
The transfer slot is kinda like a fuel bleed AND an air bleed.  (follow me?)
The transfer slot above the throttle plate is seeing air rushing into the engine, the slot below the throttle butterfly is seeing nothing but vacuum.
As you move the throttle the ratio of air bleed to fuel bleed changes......  as the throttle opens up more fuel bleed is exposed, this makes sense because air is rushing around the butterfly into the intake manifold.
If your idle air bleed and main bleed are appropriately sized the main boosters should come online at a point when the transfer slot cannot keep up with the fuel requirements of the engine.
This is why if you expose too much of the transfer slot you lose idle mixture screw sensitivity.

Ok..... so proper setup of the transfer slot.
Technically for good idle and good cruise the transfer slot doesn't *need* to be visible at all.
(technically)
But once you open the throttle a tiny bit, you need more fuel NOW, and you need that transfer slot to be functioning..... but liquids move slower than air.
Easiest way to assure this is to make sure a tiny bit of the transfer slot is showing and thus *seeing* intake vacuum in the primaries.
The secondaries in this case are not as important because at small throttle usage the secondary butterflies aren't moving.  When the secondaries do function they are opening in a metered way (with a Vacuum secondary setup) so the fuel can catch up to the air movement.  In a double pumper it isn't as important because the secondaries have a pump shot.

So this is the reason for the primary Transfer slot to be set properly..... if too little is visible there will be a stumble, if too much is visible you'll over fuel and lose idle mixture screw usage and the engine will be overly rich.
Many people when tuning do not understand this relationship and will do things like choke down the idle screws to limit fuel, or they will increase pump shot to try to mask the lean spot if the transfer slot isn't exposed enough......   don't be like those people.

Drew

Drew Pojedinec

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In your case, the throttle body has a small hole under the secondary transfer slot which will steadily leak fuel anyway..... so no worries of stagnation there, more of a risk of a rich light cruise scenario because the secondaries will constantly be leaking.  On the upside the secondary slot will "see" vacuum even with the butterflies closed all the way and will thus react quicker to secondary opening changes.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 03:03:26 PM by Drew Pojedinec »

Yellow Truck

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Drew, I think I'll read that a couple of times. I do know that when we were first running it we had the primary open so far that the mixture screws were not having any effect. I've been having a bit of a struggle getting it to hold idle with the primary and secondary closed down to the point that it is generally recommended - with the transfer slot exposed so it looks like a square under the butterfly.

Now based on your advice the other day I realize part of my problem was trying to get a stable idle with the engine below its target running temperature. This probably caused me all kinds of grief.

My truck is a stick, and it gets some throttle before I release the clutch, at the point it starts to see load (i.e. clutch friction) it is already up above 1,500, probably close to 2,000 RPM. It is also unusual for me to have it idling in gear with the clutch released. I assume at this point the transfer slot will be well exposed and less of a factor than in an auto.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

Drew Pojedinec

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Drew, I think I'll read that a couple of times. I do know that when we were first running it we had the primary open so far that the mixture screws were not having any effect.
heh, yeah, it would have been easier to read it with a carburetor in pieces in your hands....  But yes, if too much slot is exposed, it is just pouring fuel.  The idle screws still do something, but it's nothing in comparison to what is already flowing unregulated.

Quote
Now based on your advice the other day I realize part of my problem was trying to get a stable idle with the engine below its target running temperature. This probably caused me all kinds of grief.
My mistake, I forget sometimes and just assume folks know to tune at operating temp.

Quote
I assume at this point the transfer slot will be well exposed and less of a factor than in an auto.
I run a 3000+ stall convertor in my daily driver.  It still matters, it's not all about load.

Yellow Truck

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Drew - on the second point no mistake on your part. You drew out into the open something I had observed but hadn't put together. Engine ran better at the end of a test drive, but I was tuning it at the beginning. I was tuning for the wrong conditions. Very good catch on your point.

On the last point, I hear you.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

My427stang

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Drew - on the second point no mistake on your part. You drew out into the open something I had observed but hadn't put together. Engine ran better at the end of a test drive, but I was tuning it at the beginning. I was tuning for the wrong conditions. Very good catch on your point.

On the last point, I hear you.

This is one of the biggest lessons here.  It's nearly impossible to tune an engine cold, other than "good enough to warm up"  Get that baby good and warm and see how it runs.

IMHO, fix your water leak, drop the idle a hundred RPM with the primary screw, get it hot, adjust idle a/f and get 500 miles on that engine.  You might already be done and just don't know it :)

I'd also add a choke, nothing wrong with the electric choke if adjusted properly, but a hand choke is standard equipment on the dash of a 67-72 F series, so may as well use that, especially if you prefer it
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Drew Pojedinec

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Other random thoughts.....

-Idle mixture screws aren't a set and forget thing.  Any time you make changes, be they timing or idle or whatever, you should make idle mixture adjustments as needed.  I have to make seasonal adjustments since I drive year round as well.  It isn't much, but 30 degree winter temps vs 100 degree summer temps have an effect.

-Any time you adjust the idle speed with the primary throttle plates (secondary too with a dbl pumper), you NEED to make sure the accelerator pump shot is adjusted.
I very small adjustment to idle speed can create a gap between the pump arm and the pump itself.  A small amount of preload is ok, but a gap is not.

Yellow Truck

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I drained the rad to start work on the coolant leak, and looking closely I see coolant on the top lip of the timing cover, where Barry pointed out the bolts don't enter the water jacket.

I think it may be the bypass hose - there is a little hint of coolant on the clamp. I have to pull the water pump to fix it and get a look at the rest of the timing cover.

Question - when putting the water pump back can I make a gasket out of some rubberized cork gasket material I have? The paper gaskets I used will probably not survive removal and I don't have a quick source of new ones without buying the whole timing cover gasket set.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

Drew Pojedinec

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You do not need to remove the water pump to change the bypass hose.

-remove old hose
-cut new hose to size
-fold new hose in half, get each side somewhat started
-release it and force the ends onto the two water pipes
-redo all the above because you forgot to install the hose clamps.

Heo

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 ;D ;D



The defenition of a Gentleman, is a man that can play the accordion.But dont do it

cjshaker

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-redo all the above because you forgot to install the hose clamps.

LOL!

I'm just throwing this out there because I've lost track of everything you have going on, but a loose advance spring or sloppy advance bushing/plate can wreak havoc with getting a steady idle. You can chase it to no end trying to figure out why you can't achieve a stable idle speed. Watching the timing while it's idling will expose anything funky going on there. Been there, done that before.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

Drew Pojedinec

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I'm just throwing this out there because I've lost track of everything you have going on, but a loose advance spring or sloppy advance bushing/plate can wreak havoc

Good call, but we are way past that bro.
Nice job at EMC, must have been a great experience.