Author Topic: 2 x 4 Quick Fuel Carb Tuning  (Read 17654 times)

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The Real McCoy

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2 x 4 Quick Fuel Carb Tuning
« on: August 29, 2016, 09:24:08 PM »
I have a 428 stroked to 462 with a 63 low riser intake that runs rich based off plug and exhaust coloration, very black.  The engine runs and drives reasonably well other than the black exhaust.  It was put in the car in mid June and probably has 1500 miles on it now. When the break in oil was changed at about 500 miles the oil was quite black for the low miles on a brand new engine.  That is what really got me thinking about it being rich as it actually runs and drives fine but was concerned about the soot in the oil.  I recently added a wide band oxygen sensor which verified it is running rich, at idle it was reading 10.9 to 11.4.  Going down the road at cruise speed it pretty much stayed between 11 to 11.5 from 2000 to 2800 RPM.  Coasting only got it up to 11.6.  The Idle Mixture screws do not seem to be able to lean it out when idling.  I even turned them all the way in and it only come up to 11.7 t0 12.0.  Road testing with them screwed all the way in netted about the same during the cruise test 11.7 to 12.0.  Coasting now come up to 13 -14+.  Idle was actually a bit rougher than when the mixture screws were turned out a 1/2 turn, that is where they had been set prior to getting the oxygen sensor installed.

This is the setup.
428 bored .030 with 4.25 stroke kit from Survival.
9.8:1 Mahle Pistons
406 Heads with CJ size valves.
63 427 Cast Iron Headers
Comp 280H Cam
63 427 Low Riser 2 x 4 Intake
t-10 4 speed
63 Galaxie
Runs on 91 octane non oxy gas.
The oxygen sensor bung is welded in to the exhaust pipe about 3" behind the header outlet on the curb side of the car.  (427 cast iron headers)

The carbs are Quick Fuel 750 vacuum secondaries
Primary jets 72
Secondary jets 82
Primary idle air bleed 73
Secondary idle air bleed 33
Primary idle feed restriction 33
Secondary idle feed restriction 40

All float levels are between 1/8 to 3/8 up the sight glass.  Fuel pressure is right at 6.5 pounds.  It does idle reasonably well at 900-1000 RPM and vacuum at idle is 13-15".  I pulled the carbs and checked the throttle plates, the idle transfer slots were barely visible on the primary side and were not at all visible on the secondary side.  If I were to open the secondary enough to expose the idle transfer slot I think it would be running way over 1000 RPM, seems they have to be open quite a bit to expose the slots....

I had ordered some 68 and 70 jets for the primary side when I ordered the wide band oxygen sensor but have not put them in just yet after seeing how rich it is at an idle.  I'm thinking the problem is more to do with the idle circuit than the main jet size.  I did speak with Quick Fuel today and the person recommended changing the primary idle air bleed from 73 to 76 and the secondary idle air bleed from 33 to 45.  Seemed like quite a jump on the secondary but I did order some new idle air bleed jets tonight.

So a few questions....
Will the main jets do anything at all for the rich readings at idle? 
Does Quick Fuel recommendation on the idle air bleeds seem reasonable?
Other things that I may be missing....
63 1/2 Galaxie 500
428 CJ Stroker with 427 2x4 Intake, 427 Long Exhaust Manifolds, Quick Fuel Carbs and TKO 600.

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it’s what we know for sure that just ain’t so."                            Mark Twain

machoneman

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Re: 2 x 4 Quick Fuel Carb Tuning
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2016, 10:20:11 PM »
So a few questions....
Will the main jets do anything at all for the rich readings at idle? 
-nope, not at all.
Does Quick Fuel recommendation on the idle air bleeds seem reasonable?
-yes.
Other things that I may be missing....
-power valve equipped? You didn't say. PV numbers?
-weak spark at idle? Strong spark when yanking a plug wire or the coil wire?
Bob Maag

Barry_R

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Re: 2 x 4 Quick Fuel Carb Tuning
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2016, 06:49:49 AM »
Put the jets in.  The cruise and hard throttle values say the combination "wants" that.  Get the easy range clean and then start chasing the transient and idle factors.  Do not get too fixated on the O2 numbers at idle - tune for the behavior and keep an eye on the plugs.  The O2 numbers at low speeds might be useful for guidance - but they might not be.  I have been told by folks that know this stuff better than I that less expensive and older design O2 sensors lack resolution and accuracy at low gas speeds and require higher speeds and temperatures to provide good data.  On the dual quad stuff I often find them to idle best at 1/2-3/4 turn out once everything is sorted on the dyno.  Milder combinations with two fours do not require much idle air or fuel to gain RPM - idle air comes from throttle blade circumference and you have a lot of that....

The Real McCoy

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Re: 2 x 4 Quick Fuel Carb Tuning
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2016, 07:37:31 AM »
Thanks for the replies

-power valve equipped? You didn't say. PV numbers?
 Power Valve is a 6.5 with a 52 channel restriction.
 
-weak spark at idle? Strong spark when yanking a plug wire or the coil wire?
 I hadn't really thought much about the spark as it runs and starts good but I will check that tonight.  For the record it is a new Pertronix III distributor with matching coil.  Initial timing is at 12 BTDC and goes to 36, I think it is all in by 3000 but would need to verify that.  Right now the vacuum advance is hooked to the manifold port.  I had originally hooked it to the ported fitting.

Barry's post....
I will put the Main jets in first and see what it does on the "cruise" test.  The one thing that worries me is the sensor stays low, in the mid 11's, when coasting. With the mixtures screws all the way in the readings did come up a lot during the coast part of the test, well over 14 at times, RPM would have been in the 2500 to 2800.  I guess that made me think it was the idle circuit causing the richness.  Running the screw in had an incremental effect on the idle and cruise test but a significant effect on the coast test.

The gauge and sensor are an AEM X Series with a Bosch LSU 4.9 Sensor.  Any opinions on this device?

I agree on the 1/2 to 3/4 out, it has always run good at those settings.

Also agree on the idle air comment, as mentioned the throttle plates are pretty well closed down and not into the transition slots, opening them at all will have it well over 1000 RPM.

What are your thoughts on Quick Fuels recommendations for idle air bleeds?  It seemed like a pretty big change to me to go from 33 to 45 on the secondary side.

63 1/2 Galaxie 500
428 CJ Stroker with 427 2x4 Intake, 427 Long Exhaust Manifolds, Quick Fuel Carbs and TKO 600.

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it’s what we know for sure that just ain’t so."                            Mark Twain

e philpott

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Re: 2 x 4 Quick Fuel Carb Tuning
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2016, 08:20:25 AM »
on the air bleeds , bigger is leaner ..... short of knowing the difference between the secondary low speed circuit and primary you just about have to start at QF recommendations and go from there

Barry_R

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Re: 2 x 4 Quick Fuel Carb Tuning
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2016, 09:18:34 AM »
Closed throttle coast will pull plenty of vacuum and fuel through the idle circuits - I would worry about that last - if I worried at all.  The Quick Fuel guy is trying to get you some idle adjustability - directionally correct if necessary - if you can't get good idle behavior.  Tune the idle for behavior, let the numbers be what they are.  If you can't get it to idle and drive out of idle nicely and are way out of rational position on the screws - make the change and try again.

I have zero experience on that sensor kit and cannot comment.  But on some of my EFI stuff they idle best with numbers that are wonky and then straighten out once we get some RPM going.

turbohunter

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Re: 2 x 4 Quick Fuel Carb Tuning
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2016, 11:44:36 AM »
On your last question, "what are your thoughts on the air bleeds".
I can say that my experience with a QF carb is the same as your two.
In talking with others it seems that they send them out very safe/fat.
I ended up opening my idle bleeds up to 78 from 70. I had bought a range of bleeds up to 84.
When to much bleed was installed you could definitely tell because of idle surging.
Ended up that 78 was the sweet spot. So that is quite a bit over the shipped size, just as they are recommending to you.
Marc
'61 F100 292Y
'66 Mustang Injected 428
'66 Q code Country Squire wagon


The Real McCoy

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Re: 2 x 4 Quick Fuel Carb Tuning
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2016, 12:48:39 PM »
Thanks to all for the feedback.  I will get the main jets in see how it runs out and then consider changing the idle air bleeds if necessary.  I have the 68 and 70 main jets and should see the QF recommended idle air bleeds by tomorrow PM.  Work schedule may interfere with this project but will post results when I get it done.  Hopefully with some good results and less questions.
63 1/2 Galaxie 500
428 CJ Stroker with 427 2x4 Intake, 427 Long Exhaust Manifolds, Quick Fuel Carbs and TKO 600.

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it’s what we know for sure that just ain’t so."                            Mark Twain

Falcon67

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Re: 2 x 4 Quick Fuel Carb Tuning
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2016, 05:52:42 PM »
I think you are on the right track with the air bleeds.  I had the opposite issue with my 302 tunnel ram setup and a pair of Edelbrock 600s - the idle circuit was fine out of the box but the carbs needed 4% bump in fuel primary and secondary to get the best power mixture.  Opening up the idle air bleeds should give you some adjustment in the mix needles.  On a 4 corner they are still pretty sensitive when the air bleeds are right, the DP carbs I built with QF parts only like about 1/8 turn out to set idle mix.

427LX

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Re: 2 x 4 Quick Fuel Carb Tuning
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2016, 08:38:01 PM »
This is all very interesting!
I run a 427 Windsor with good flowing TFS Highport heads 330/258 cfm @.600 lift with a .600 lift/242/249 hyd. roller.
My intake is a Price Motorsport dual Holley setup designed off of a Medium Riser FE intake.
Got it going with a pair of 600 Holley 1850's and the idle and off idle cruise was perfect with the stock .028 IFR and .070 IAB.
Would cruise nicely in the low 14's AFR.
Recently I swapped out the stock 1 9/16 600 baseplates for the QFT 750 plates with 1 11/16 throttle plates.
Right off this thing wanted more idle fuel the higher the cruise RPM went before transition to the mains.
It would stumble and go lean in the 15's at around 2000 RPM up with the curb idle being in the 13's.
Finally ended up with .033 IFR much like a 750 carb and .068 IAB's in the front carb which is primary and .070 in rear carb.
Now it's back to a nice 14.3 2000 RPM  cruise at light throttle in 4th or 5th gear.
Also went up 1 jet in primaries from 67 to 68 with same 68 in secondary jet blocks.

On your QFT carbs you might want to check ALL the air bleeds for any debris that might be clogging one up.
I find it strange that your engine was running with the Idle mix screws screwed all the way in! Fuel was coming from someplace and if an air bleed is plugged up it can siphon fuel out and into the venturi causing rich idle. I had that happen once!
« Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 08:41:31 PM by 427LX »

The Real McCoy

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Re: 2 x 4 Quick Fuel Carb Tuning
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2016, 07:10:52 PM »
I finally got some time to work on the carburetors this week.  Lots of things going on that kept me from doing much the last 2 weeks.

So I changed the primary main jets on both carburetors from 72 to 68.  This really didn't seem to do much for it, O2 value at idle was still down in the 11's.  The cruise test was also about the same as before the jet change.  At 3000 RPM it did lean it out a bit with O2 numbers in the 12.5:1 range.  I didn't mention in my original post that the car does have a 3.00:1 rear end so the cruise test is generally in the 2000 to 2600 range.  70 MPH is about 2700 and 3000 is pushing 80 MPH.  Just to see how the primary carburetor reacts to the RPM I run it up to 2500 and monitored the main fuel system with the air cleaner off, no fuel was coming out of the main fuel system.  At 3000 RPM I had fuel coming out of the main fuel system.  This was with the car sitting still which may not be a totally fair comparison to what it does going down the road but it would seem like it is running pretty much on the idle and transition circuits when under light load going down the road.

I then changed the Idle Air Bleeds on both carburetors per Quick Fuel recommendation.  Primary side of the carburetors went from 73 to 76 and the secondary side of the carburetors went from 33 t0 45.  This did make a difference in the idle O2 numbers and more so on the cruise test.  Idle O2 value went from high 10's and low 11's up to low 12's.  Cruise O2 values went from 11-11.5 up to 13+ under light load, this value was relatively stable from about 2000 to 2600.  It was very sensitive to throttle position, letting up on the throttle would drop it down to 12.0, giving it just a little throttle would lean it out for a short time, sometimes as high as 16, it would then settle back to the 13 range.  When on the cruise test increasing RPM above 2700 the O2 values would start dropping off, I expect that would be due to the main fuel system coming into play.  Today I took it on about a 50 mile run on the freeway with about 15 miles of steady 80 MPH at about 3000 RPM, the O2 settled in right about 12.5 so it would appear I could still put some smaller main jets in the primary side,  they were 72, and are 68 now.  I was thinking of trying some 66 or 64 jets.  Also, thought I might do the primary carburetor rather than both carburetors.  Is this a reasonable thing to try?

The idle O2 values still seems a little rich but reasonable on the cruise test under light load.  Not really sure if I should just leave it alone or try to improve on it.  If I do make more changes would I go bigger yet on the idle air bleed or put some smaller idle feed restrictions in it.  It still drives decent and idles fine.  It might idle just a bit better and picked up a tiny bit of vacuum with the larger air bleeds.  Looking for suggestions on this.....

So now I have a question that I hope this group can educate me on.  I have not had a lot of experience working on carburetors (until just recently anyhow) so I have been doing a lot of reading on these types of carburetors trying to gain an understanding of just exactly how they work.  Most of the material I have studied is based off Ford shop manuals for Ford and Holley carburetors. I also have one of Vizards book on Holley's that I think it would apply very closely the Quick Fuel carburetors that I am dealing with.  My question is about the idle and transition circuits.  The old 352 and 390 engines with 2 barrel carburetors have the same type of idle and transition circuits that work the same way, except they just have 2.  A single 4 barrel has 4 idle circuits, with mixture adjustments on the primary barrels only.  Two 4 barrels are double of the single 4 barrel.  So now there is 8 idle circuits sucking fuel while idling and in the transition circuits with 15-18" of vacuum.  How is a reasonable fuel mixture and O2 value obtained with 8 circuits sucking fuel?  Maybe part of the answer is the 2 barrel carburetor idle air bleeds and idle feed restrictions are sized way different but that is something I didn't have access too.  It just seems to me with 15-18" of vacuum and 8 fuel circuits it is almost a no brainer that it is going to be on the rich side.  I kind of debated even asking this question because when you give me the answer it might appear to be a stupid question but according to my wife, a retired 911 dispatcher, there are no stupid questions,  just a lot of stupid people.....

Thanks for all the feedback already given.
63 1/2 Galaxie 500
428 CJ Stroker with 427 2x4 Intake, 427 Long Exhaust Manifolds, Quick Fuel Carbs and TKO 600.

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it’s what we know for sure that just ain’t so."                            Mark Twain

Barry_R

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Re: 2 x 4 Quick Fuel Carb Tuning
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2016, 08:09:31 PM »
The short and brutally oversimplified answer is that yes - you do have eight circuits working.  But the carbs are designed for that - on a four barrel with non-adjustable secondary idle the circuitry is specifically designed to have minimal idle activity in the rear and most in the front where it can be adjusted.

Joe-JDC

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Re: 2 x 4 Quick Fuel Carb Tuning
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2016, 08:18:31 PM »
You spoke of the idle transfer slots not showing in the secondaries, and that is the start of all adjustments needed.  It is basic to getting a Holley to idle properly, and transition to speed.  The Holley manual states that the secondaries need a .020" slot showing with the primaries closed.  Then you adjust the idle bleed screws, idle speed, and accelerator shot arm.  For dual carbs, you might have to close the slots to ~.012-.016" to get the idle speed down, but is will work if you close the primary blades and back off the idle set screw for accelerator rod/cable.  Joe-JDC.
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

The Real McCoy

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Re: 2 x 4 Quick Fuel Carb Tuning
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2016, 09:23:34 PM »
Barry
I guess I looked at the idle air bleeds and idle feed restrictions (original specs) being 73/33 on the primary and 33/40 on the secondary and surmised the secondary idle circuits were contributing to the rich condition.  How is it they limit the idle activity on the rear?  I had thought that when I had turned the idle screws in all the way, with some improvement in O2 values, it was possibly just feeding of the secondary idle circuits and it was still generally rich.

Joe,
I do recognize that the transition slots are not showing on the secondary's, if they show at all the idle RPM is well over a 1000. Even on the primary side they are barely visible.  Barry had commented on earlier post that it will get air from throttle blade circumference which these carbs have a lot of.  Maybe I'm missing your point and apologize if that is the case.  As far as idling, transitioning from idle and general drivability I'm really not having any issues, it is the rich air fuel mixture that I'm really trying to address.

Thanks to both for your feedback.
63 1/2 Galaxie 500
428 CJ Stroker with 427 2x4 Intake, 427 Long Exhaust Manifolds, Quick Fuel Carbs and TKO 600.

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it’s what we know for sure that just ain’t so."                            Mark Twain

Joe-JDC

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Re: 2 x 4 Quick Fuel Carb Tuning
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2016, 09:30:24 PM »
The first step in adjusting any Holley after centering the blades is to set the idle transfer slot in the secondary.  Nothing else will fix the problem.  Everything else you do is a "band-aid" until you set those.  Joe-JDC 
Joe-JDC '70GT-500